Trouble in Minas Tirith! Game over!

[Thoth]

/confirm

[Thoth]

*Wacks people that had to look up Haradrim in the head*
*strokes blunt fork he, he*

With that out of the way, I'll start repeating and hopefully adding to what others already said. 3 killings, so probably at least 3 killing groups. They took out one scum so it's a relatively good night I think. Getting only names of the dead and no roles is not that important as we can certainly deduct alignment.
My guess for Aragorn's role would be a Vig-doc. A role that Macros has used before and fits perfectly. Legolas was probably an investigating role. I think not a straight cop (based on my previous games with Marcos), but one that gets some general info about a player and has to interpret it himself.

It certainly looks like the Haradrim killed Aragorn, unless the stone pillar was actually the trunk of an 'oliphaunt'. I think the Nazgul would make a logical Mafia group with Sauron as the GF. I've no idea who would then be the GF of the Haradrim. Maybe Shelob as I seem to recall that they thought of her as a deity. Of course there could also be orcs, trolls, Saruman so not evil character can be in the game as there are too many.

[Thoth]

I'm getting curious as well. Macros never mentioned anything about things happening outside the city. Knowing this apparently from his role (or from reading something in Macros' posts that I missed) and getting info about 2 players seems a lot to me.
I certainly won't vote him for the moment as he seems to be hinting at having a strong pro-town role. I would like to know more about the fos:Thoth & Tigris though.

[Thoth]

Well, that explains things. Your info looks reliable to me as I targeted one of these players last night.
It seems very likely that one of us 3 is scum. In my opinion Zoneace has been a lot more suspicious than Tigris sofar. I especially don't like the vote for Flying Dutchman, mainly for the reason I stated a few posts up.

vote:ZONEACE

[Thoth]

Wow, thx Zoneace. That makes things a lot easier .

First you don't need a night ability to be in one place with others. If for instance DP targets you, Tigris targets DP and I target Tigris we will all show up in the same place.

What makes things easier though is

that I've not yet seen players without an ability

in Macros' games. Look at his other games on the site and please point me towards someone without a night ability. Of course a weak ability or a one-time ability occur regularly, but I just do not buy having no ability.

[Thoth]

Eomer was there during the battle in front of Minas Tirith, so he could easily be in the game. It would surprise me though if he was a regular townie. Next to that he's not sure to be in. We started with 22 players. Say about 8 scum (previous game was 8 of 20). This would leave us with about 14 roles. I could easily think of 20 roles that are more important than Eomer. On the other hand there are bound to be minor characters in the game. We already have a claimed gatekeeper for instance.

FD: It's too late for me to look up the layout of the town. I'll try to get to this sometime during the week, but that doesn't help much now. I assume you want to avoid a gate close to the houses of healing so I did quickly look those up. They are on the 4th circle. I'm not sure whether that means between gate 3 and 4 or between gate 4 and 5.

[Thoth]

Well FD, I actually looked it up in the book. I cannot help it if they make a mistake on the Arda website, but the book clearly says 4th circle.

[Thoth]

People from Khand are definitively evil. I only found one mention of them in the book. There the Variags of Khand come to the help of the Haradrim during the battle of Pelennor Fields. I think there's even a good chance that the Haradrim and the Khand are part of the same Mafia group.
This puts the suspicions I had about players that were defending Zoneace on more shaky grounds as there is a chance that we have already eliminated that group.
I will look more into that tomorrow when I'm not dog-tired.

[Thoth]

[OT] That really was funny Tigris [/OT]

I'm finding the reasons to suspect Leonidas very vague. As I understand it the reasoning is: maybe someone tried to kill FD last night. He might have been doc protected or a roleblocker may have been on the scene. If that was the case these 2 could have passed FD's gate and therefore one of them could be scum.
To me this is just not a good enough reason to vote someone. Of course it's interesting to keep the theory in mind as of course it is a possibility. There are just too many if's in it to act on it at the moment. Especially as I think there are more interesting targets as I will get to below.

First this though:

First off, not quoting the mod, but Macros wrote that

one

of the Haradrim was a killer. I don't know how important that might be later in the game, but we likely shouldn't forget about that. It mirrors Macros' last game of having 2 innocents tied to a serial killer (who ended up winning the game, but I digress ) Course, we don't know the mechanism of this, so not too much can be read into it, yet at least.

It does look a bit like not all Haradrim are killers, but I'm pretty sure all Haradrim are evil. Tolkien has a very sharp (more like extreme) separation between good and evil in his books. I don't think Macros would rape the theme so much as to making some Haradrim good. I think his statement could also be explained like this: The Haradrim group has to choose who they send out to kill. One of the 2 dead Haradrim has functioned in this way (Zoneace as he killed Aragorn) and the other has not. This seems right with both of them dying day 1 when they only made one kill.

At first I thought the Haradrim and Khand were one group as they are part of the same army. I'm starting to believe now that they were part of different groups. Maybe all scum are parts of Sauron's army. It does look like there's a Haradrim left though.
Especially as there's one person that looks very suspicious to me and my guess would be that he is part of the Haradrim:

vote:Riven

Oh, and by the way:
FOS: Thoth and Tigris

Without saying why for now.

Nope, I can confirm it is IN the city of Minas Tirith, although there are things that are done outside.

Think i'll stick with my vote on mister Flying Dutchman now, until we get some info as to why and how do you know this

Here he keeps his vote on FD when FD is basically saying that he has info that leads him to suspect certain people. This seems like someone that is

pro-town

and you certainly do not want to put pressure on him. Sure, it was only one vote, but it does not seem like a pro-town thing to me. (This applies to the others that voted FD as well)

UnVote: Flying Dutchman

FD: did you see Zoneace go through the gate? if not i suspect that he lives outside the city, as befits his role name.

Zoneace doenst have to go anywhere to be with those other three.. and he isnt the only one without a night ability.

Zoneace is still alive, so i suspect that DP targeted him.
Then either Tigris or Thoth (or both even) targeted DP.

Leaning more towards Tigris right now, due to the

" (of course that doesn't make us Haradrim)"

comment.

Vote Tigris

Are you saying that

you do not have a night ability

as well. I didn't believe Zoneace claiming this and I do not believe you.
Next to that this really does look like an attempt to divert the Zoneace bandwagon.

Zoneace has claimed a fairly major character name in Eomer. No one else has stepped forawrd to has that they are the realy Eomer, so I tend to believe his role name. As for the gate thing, i'm not yet sure. But eventually the light will be turned on.

Here he's helping Zoneace again. His argument is reasonable assuming you consider Eomer to be a fairly major character. This is debatable though as I already mentioned in one of my earlier posts.

[Thoth]

unvote:Riven

I'm not going to keep my vote on someone claiming a member of the fellowship. I would expect all of them to be in the game. It certainly looks like that sofar with the dead characters.
Also Riven did not claim basic townie, but claimed no night choice. He could easily be a mason together with Pippin. Until someone stands up and claims Merry as well I'll believe him.

[Thoth]

The only player I had really strong suspicions against was Riven. Now that he turned out to probably be town I do not see someone really standing out.
While reading I did notice an odd thing:

vote:gia

forthe same reason that cam voted on him

For reference let me quote all mathcam's posts in the game up to this point.

I'm here, replacing talitha, but it'll be a couple of days before I'm caught up.

Cam
-----------------------------
I agree we should back off Riven. He's good for now.

CoolBot, we don't know Eomer's not in the game. A clever (or, perhaps, just one that doesn't check the board very often) Eomer would wait to see if ZONEACE was going to be lynched anyway without needing to reveal who he was.

I never understood the argument against Leo. Why is there any reason to think FlyingDutchman was targeted last night? He asked for protection the night before!!! Evil's not usually that stupid.

Cam
-----------------------------
Oh, and sure.

Vote: GIA

Cam
-----------------------------
I too am not convinced of his innocence. But the claim can be easily contradicted later if, say, when we're down to 5 of us, it turns out that Pippen wasn't in the game. Makes for a nice easy kill.

Cam

I do not see mathcam posting a reason for his vote on mgia. To me this has the 'Let's follow an experienced player to make me look like a good townie' - feeling to it. Care to explain ben?

I don't feel the accusations against any of the 3 players getting votes at the moment have enough substance to vote for them. I find the Leo may have attacked FD who may have been protected by bananabob who could be a doctor a bit farfetched.
Also calling mgia's vote for FD a diversionary tactic when there were only random votes at that time and Zoneace was under no suspicion whatsoever makes no sense to me. (Although I find voting for FD at the time he did suspicious as I already stated before.)
Voting for a lurker is often a good thing at a standstill, but as Phoebus has just posted there's no reason to vote him.

[Thoth]

Anyone passing through a gate must have a night choice I think. Next to that I do not think anyone will try to claim having no night choice

and

no night ability anymore. The 'no basic townies in Macros' games' point is still there as Riven in essence claimed a night ability. (Of course I know that in the next Macros game he will will probably make me one)

[quote"Macros in the first post"]Rumour has it that in order to end this terrible seige some of the Enemy have infiltrated the city[/quote]
This seems to suggest that the scum is already inside, although it doesn't exclude the possibility that not all of them are. It may be worth trying to watch the outer gate.

[Thoth]

toth, read the last part of cams post, there is a reason, and also, i beleive the person beforehand had a reason as well.
there, explained.

It must be me being blind then. Could you maybe quote the reason mathcam gave, because I still cannot find it.

[Thoth]

*sits on fence*

[Thoth]

I do not think Tigris could be part of the Haradrim. As Zoneace made a kill for the Haradrim Night one it seems likely that the other Haradrim did not travel that night. As Tgiris and Zoneace both travelled Night one (even through the same gate) they are unlikely to be in the same Mafia group.
Of course Tigris could be part of another Mafia group, but I've not seen him do things that suggest that.

[Thoth]

Well, to me ben is a lot more suspicious than Tigris or Ages. Maybe he's always as flippant as now, but that does not make it less suspicious to me. Next to that there's still the exchange we had on page 12 that ended like this:

toth, read the last part of cams post, there is a reason, and also, i beleive the person beforehand had a reason as well.
there, explained.

It must be me being blind then. Could you maybe quote the reason mathcam gave, because I still cannot find it.

I asked him a question. He gives an answer that's not an answer. When I ask for clarification it's just ignored (and he does not ignore a lot).
He's at least a better target than Ages or Tigris to me.
All Ages has done is spew forth some theories. Eventhough they had some holes in them I usually find it positive when someone posts his thoughts.
Against Tigris all we've got is mathcam's gut feeling. Allthough I do find that a strong argument against Tigris I do not yet feel the same.

I'll go for the one that I find most suspicious of the 3 as we've only got a few hours left before the deadline.

vote:bigbenwd

I'll be online for sure again before the deadline to change my vote/unvote should ben come out with new information or should we be at risk of lynching 2 players.

I'll add my unofficial vote count. I would appreciate if someone checks whether they have the same:

ben:3
Ages:2
Tigris:1

Several posts while I was typing (and my boss came in). I also don't like lynching both (and is both ben and Tigris or ben and Ages).

[Thoth]

I missed mathcam's vote. I think yours is correct, except that Tigris now has no more votes.

So new still completely unofficial, but this time probably correct vote count:

bigbenwd: 4(Flying Dutchman, Coolbot, Thoth, Ages)
Ages: 3 (Tigris, bigben, Mathcam)

[Thoth]

Well, I'm not buying it for the moment. I can believe that you didn't random vote ZONEACE day 1 and when he was bandwagoned you were actively trying to get him lynched. But I cannot believe that you got Leonidas as innocent and then produce these posts:

we still have the docs if someone is a good guy, even though i think that leo is a scum

fos:leonidas

actually, we have absolutely nothin else to go on right now, so

vote:leonidas

we have nothing to go on right now, and theres like nobody else posting in here, who else herte agrees with my lynching of leo today?

ya, from the logic displayed here,

vote: leo

I would maybe even buy(from you, not from everyone) that you forgot and accidently voted him. I just cannot buy a Fos, then a vote, then a call for a lynch and then a second vote without ever remembering that you investigated him last night.

Also note that Denethor is not necessarily a good role as he was corrupted by Sauron because of his extensive use of the Palantir.

[Thoth]

They are from today. Page 7 & 8.

[Thoth]

Sorry to doublepost, but let me clarify a bit.
I would normally think Denethor would be in the game and would be pro-town (eventhough he could be anti-town as I said before it's just not that likely). What I just cannot imagine is someone posting like this over a person he investigated last night. I know that when I make a Night choice it sometimes takes me literally hours to decide who to target and I always feel tension when I get to see the result. When I see that persons name the next day in the game (or even in another thread) there's no way not to think about this.
If there are others that feel they could forget their night action in the same way that ben did in going after Leo then I would be willing to unvote him. Until then I just do not buy it, no matter what role he claims.

[Thoth]

Well ben, to do this you go to the post you want to quote from and then you can select the text you want to quote and hit CTRL-C. You open your reply in a separate window, hit CTRL-V and there it is. Select it and click quote to put it between quote tags. Repeat this to get more quotes in.
Now that that is out of the way I see no problem for you to quote the suspicions you are referring to.

I already stated my suspicions of you and I also said when I would unvote you:

If there are others that feel they could forget their night action in the same way that ben did in going after Leo then I would be willing to unvote him. Until then I just do not buy it, no matter what role he claims.

So far nobody came forth. Only mathcam stated that he believed you would be capable of this.

[Thoth]

The people from Khand are one of the races that joined the army of Sauron.

[Thoth]

unvote: bigbenwd
vote: Ages

There are only 2 possibilities: Either Ages is scum and made up a bad claim or Macros thought:'Let's see him talk his way out of this role.'

[Thoth]

I still don't get why people think that a character that is insane in the books would suddenly make a sane cop? Too many people do apparently, so I guess I'll have to claim eventhough I really dislike claiming.

I'm Bergil. At night I can choose someone to follow around town and receive a small story (with occasionally a spelling error) about what they were doing.

[Thoth]

w00t, i'm finally important in a game

Yeah, applause for you ben . Although getting a cop type role lynched is hardly something to be proud. Well, as I'm dead as soon as Macros logs on I'll better reveal my results so far. Night one I followed Tigris who seemde to be following someone else that I could not see. Night two I followed Werebear. I did see him get killed, but could not recognise the killer because he wore a hood. Night 3 I followed ben who stayed in the palace all night, which is the reason I did not vote him again.

[Thoth]

I'm so good :

unless the stone pillar was actually the trunk of an 'oliphaunt'

Thanks for the game Macros. I had a lot of fun again as always. We tried to kill Leonidas Night 2 I think, but we probably could not do that with just a sword.

[Thoth]

I did find it surpsrising that Phoebus did not have a role name. In the e-mail conversations we had during Night 1 I already proposed Ioreth as a possible role claim. Maybe that would have worked better than my actual claim. Surprisingly most players found Bergil unlikely to be in the game when I thought it very dangerous to claim him as I expected him to be almost certain in the game.

[Thoth]

Aargh, I just see that I was right about ben lying, but I still got lynched for it .