Trouble in Minas Tirith! Game over!

[Phoebus]

/confirm

[Phoebus]

Well,
Most of what has to be said has been said.

I'd concur with Leo that it is very unlikely for a vig to kill on N1. So, The Haradrim must have been taken out by a rival mafia faction.
So we can assume there are atleast two factions.

The Haradrim have been mentioned as allies of Mordor against Gondor.
No ruler has been mentioned from Harad has there? So would they have Sauron as the GF too? After all, Sauron has to be in this game. And the rival faction would logically be the Ring Wraiths with their swords (beheading?).

As for the pillar of stone, only the Tower of Isengard (Saruman's pad) springs to mind but that is no where near Minas Tirith and neither could it be too useful as a weapon.
I wonder as to the title of this game. Is Minas Tirith the setting and should we focus on happenings around that part of the book for the most part? Or did Mac just get tired of calling it LOTR mafia...
Other creatures strong enough to be hurling stones about would be orcs and/or trolls. And if it was actually hovering rather than being thrown, then the magic would suggest Saruman...


Those who were killed...
Legolas was mentioned as peering into the dark and seeking quarry.
With his elvish vision, definitely indicates some sort of cop to me.

And Aragorn, well, he was

stalking

someone. That would make him either another snoop/cop or the classic Stalker role which I've seen mentioned on the Princeton Mafia site...he may either follow or kill someone every night. A mixed cop/vig. Quite powerful.

Enough rambling.

As I said, most of what had to be said has been said.

Now,
I'll random

vote:Dragon Slayer

~Phoebus~

[Phoebus]

With the recent information coming to light, I'm gonna

Unvote:DS, FoS:Zoneace

I think some explanations as to the "No night ability" yet still out and about equation are due.

~Phoebus~

[Phoebus]

I don't think talking too much in twilight is a really good idea FD.
Wait until tomorrow.

[Phoebus]

Someone prod Mac?

[Phoebus]

Can someone please enlighten me on 'Olipha(u)nts'. I never saw a mention of them on Ecyclopaedia Arda and definitely don't remember them from the books.
Is it a joke? Or my memory?

~Phoebus~

[Phoebus]

Thanks FD...

But Oliphaunts being stone pillars does not seem to strike me as being correct...

[Phoebus]

I wonder if maybe Leo needs a replacement too?

It's been a week he's been AWOL now and this discussion is going nowhere...

Would be unfair just to vote him off without any defence whatsoever...

[Phoebus]

Does someone need to poke Leo and let him know that he hasn't been replaced here?

He's been posting in the other games but not here...

[Phoebus]

Hello hello hello!!

I'm around.

Not lurking in this game for a particular reason but for the fact that I have nothing to contribute.

Last post was a call for Leo since he'd been seen by FD. Now that we've established (for the moment) that he is innocent, I ahve nothing to add.

Fingers were pointed at Gnome but then nobody seems to want to push him for info.

I'm just very short and these things are flying over my head.
No suspicions yet because this game is going almost nowhere.

No voting for Leo, not enough people convinced about Gnome...so vote for Phoebus.

You do not want to vote me out.

If saying "hi" from time to time just to prove one is not lurking is what will keep the votes away, then that's what I will do. I daresay I'll be called on for spamming but oh well!

Oh and please be vareful about the voting, I'm in an entire different time zone and you might just hang me while I'm asleep...

~Phoebus.

[Phoebus]

Phoebus, keep posting or we'll kill you.

Aye aye Sir!

Could you guys do something about all those votes? This most vote lynch rule makes me nervous.

I'm happy I could be of service as an amusement...

[Phoebus]

Phoebus, I'll unvote you when you post something more than worrying about votes.

Sure!

What do you want? Going from what others have pointed out, I tend to concur that Gnome is the likeliest suspect who could be Zoneace's buddy.

But for now, no one seems to want to proceed anywhere ahead of here.
I'd vote for Gnome if we decided that's what we are going to do. For personally, I haven't a clue.

The only thing I'm wondering about is mathcam's vote for Tigris.
He voted for me as lurker. Fair enough.
I indicated I'm still around. He unvoted, fair enough again.
Then he votes for Tigris after having re read the thread. I'd like a little more plausible explanation for the vote.

Tigris does not seem too concerned about the vote as well. I can't blame him/her. (Sorry I don't know which. ) and has proceeded to talk about what where we should send FD.

At this point of time, I'd rather FD make up his own mind for the story does indicate infiltration of the city has been achieved. I guess he also needs doc cover. It's been rather lucky I think for him to eb around still with such a potentially revealing role.

There are absolutely no leads other than him. Riven's claim has been satisfactory for now. We've decided not to go after Leo as well.

At this rate, I

will

worry about my lead in the votes race. You don't want me lynched. That's all I say...
Why? Well, I'm town. Number majority for town is a good thing. From what I've heard of Macros' games, night abilities for every character are a given. I hardly need state I have one...do I?

~Phoebus~

[Phoebus]

Um.... Phoebus? I think right now, since your head is on the block, that we're asking you a little more than "who do you think is suspicious" and "Do you have a night ability". Like... character name?

As Gnome pointed out, you're dead WB!
But I'll humour you with this titbit.

I'm just very short and these things are flying over my head.

[Phoebus]

Werebear,
Apologies. My bad,

Tigris,
Fine, you'll be a he for now, then.
And I don't blame you for ignoring single votes, though I'd like to hear the reasons for mathcam's vote for you.

I'd suggest a no lynch at this time too with everyone being so undecided.
I'd probably be slaughtered for mentioning it though.
Seems like, though, more people than just me seem to ahev thought of it.

!Phoebus!

[Phoebus]

Fine. No Lynch is out the window.

You all really want a name? More than half the people who voted me for lurking aren't back.

Would prefer their opinions.

Though it seems I'll end up saying a name anyways...

[Phoebus]

Pheobus hasn't claimed

anything

except for implying a hobbit or dwarf.

Well, I thought you'd be more perceptive and definitely think you are. Just slow.

I'm Gimli.

[Phoebus]

I really have a really good urge to spam now Coolbot!

But I'll resist and turn this post into something a little more useful and ask why revealing town roles randomly and routinely is useful?

And also, request Cam again for his reasons why he voted Tigris.

~Phoebus~

[Phoebus]

Er...while we wait for orbiting to return, here's a little cat amongst the pigeons...


Denethor.
Did he not crave power? Wasn't he the one who was naive enough to think that the Palantirs would be useful when infact Sauron could potentially see what he was seeing? He died an unconvinced man (IIRC)

Let's assume ben is not naive since he claims he found out about ZA. But then, with his "not thinking before posting" issues slightly disregarded for the moment, his vote for Leo seems even more strange if he was returned innocent.

Scenario A: Some sort of anti town, pro town seeming traitor?

Scenario B: cop with sanity issues?

Scenario C: Regulation cop but whose results are broadcast to Sauron through his own palantir?

Scenario D: Phoebus = teh clueless.

Take your pick.

[Phoebus]

But why couldn't he just be a normal cop?

No reason why not. Just musing...

How many votes for orbiting by now?

[Phoebus]

Exactly...so we gotta start going forward somewhere don't we?
So...any reason why not you?

(I'm still not very happy at the idea of Denethor as cop ) But then you seem prime candidate for committing the cardinal sin of mafia...

[Phoebus]

Here's one. What if ages is a doc? Or a cop? Or any other useful role that we're bandwagonning into the open not because we find ages very suspicious, but because we don't know what else to do.

Right. But who

is

suspicious then? We gotta start somewhere...
Wanna go after ben for being a

possibly

flaky/dangerous cop?
A random pick of Macros' is sure as hell not going to help.

[Phoebus]

There must have been a reason why Macros did not allow it.
Maybe not.

Frankly...I'd probably be all for a no lynch but then everyone gasps in horror and points fingers.
Though because of that...no one

usually

would and scum most certainly would not.
But what about pulling a double bluff?

[Phoebus]

Don't worry Cam...it does not seem like picking on me (atleast to me)
My solution was not to gasp in horror (if I'd have voted then you could say that)
I'm just trying to stir up discussion or we will be going nowhere....

Personally I haven't a clue. My scum catching skills are badly off. You could call them non existent
I've been Mafia in all (I think) of my finished games and I'm overly paranoid about protecting myself.

([aside]And GF too...I'm always incharge[/aside])

8)
This is a fantastic feeling of freedom only to remain clueless.
Atleast as scum...you have your cohorts to thrash matters out with.


I've already said what I think is uncomfortable and that is...Denethor being a cop.

I'll wait for your thoughts though...

[Phoebus]

Hmm.
Maybe Mac was being that way just because he feels no lynches this early are not within the spirit of the game?

[Phoebus]

You are a leader you say?
Have you any followers then? If you don't, why would you be mentioned as 'leader'.
Funny but I definitely don't remember the Wose coming anywhere into the picture at Minas Tirith. Again...it has been a couple of years since I read the book..

However, the Encyclopaedia of Arda tells them to be shy secretive folk. Why would you come out into the open and moreover, have the role of an aggressive vigilante?

I'm just rambling and thinking out aloud here but I'm leaning towards voting for you...

There's no one supicious or we'd ask you to target them...but then again, what's to say that one of the scum groups don't have a limited number of alternate kill methods?

[Phoebus]

Do you need some encouragement ages? To be more straight with us?

Well, you have it.

vote:ages

[Phoebus]

One more needed. Let's just get this over with...

[Phoebus]

Don't you get role names ben?or just good and evil?

If you do, what's Thoth's name?

[Phoebus]

Vote: toth

and I knew FD was beregond, all I remember about beregond though was he was a good freind of merry (or whoevery claimed allegience to Denethore) and helped Merry through tough times.

Excuse the double post but I need to get this cleared up.

Knew FD=Beregond.

Knew as in investigated knew? Or knew because you deduced his role name from his 'gatekeeper' role and went to look for him in the book?

[Phoebus]

C'mon Thoth, claim already...
Shall I help you along with a vote? The claiming part is just a formality now as far as I can see...

[Phoebus]

Bah, I typed FD and meant zoneace earlier for verifying ben's investigations.

fos: phoebus

, just because asking for the mechanics from a cop is generally a bad/scummy thing to do in my eyes. Having the town not know the mechanics makes it easier for the cop to catch scum in a lie.

Erm...yeah...thank you for the fos?

The only reason I asked that was because I was wondering if ben was lying himself. I still was not convinced of Denethor's complete alleigance/availability to the town.

Earleir he'd said that he'd investigated Zoneace (guilty) and leo (innocent). Today he comes up with Thoth as guilty and claimed that he knew that FD was Beregond.
He'd known about ZA but never said anything since we were on to him anyways. If this was the same sort of 'knew' as the one for ZA...something was amiss but he's explained it well and so...no further questions..

I'm leaning towards trusting ben more and more but the fact that it's Denethor still tickles me wrong somewhere...

[Phoebus]

We can just decide where Ben's loyalties lie with a

vote for thoth

!

[Phoebus]

Ouch! Lots of good guys.
I dunno...5 more evil left? Seems a little overdone...but then...we won't know till the fat lady sings.

You know what?
I want to hear a little more from Dragon Slayer. Whatever games I've played with him/seen him play, he's never been so quiet.

[Phoebus]

Two (or even more) vigis see, quite a likelihood here. We must've had atleast one kill by a vig last night and we had ages as well...

I wonder if the orc was on his own? Or with a mixed team of some sort?

Intriguing...

[Phoebus]

I didn't kill anyone last night either.

DS?

[Phoebus]

Um, mlaker, I already requested DS to come forward...

[Phoebus]

Has a lot of poking to do and might as well start here...

HEY CAM!! Who is it then?!

[Phoebus]

Yes. You were right, we should debate on whether or not to hang you up.
But you want a mass claim? Why don't you go first?

[Phoebus]

OK. I admit that was a rush of blood. Still, I'm stumped. Someone please explain to me where that fourth killer was all this time...if it isn't a vig.

I'm not serious about lynching mathcam. And grudgingly, must say that a amss claim is prudent at this juncture. Who wants to start? I've been outed already.

unless someone has a better idea.

[Phoebus]

I'm eagerly waiting for Gnome to return with "more" as he has promised, for the town may be in a better position than we thought.

Of the seven alive, I have claimed.
So have mlaker and mathcam who vouched for each other.
Scalebane helped us catch a lie and Leo's been vouched for by a late cop.

Now, that leaves MGIA and DS as the prime suspects in my mind. if it was a vig who got CoolBot, please fess up. However, he was killed by a voice in his head. Controlling, compelling voice indicates Saruman to me and please don't tell me that he's a vig. Though what Saruman is doing in Minas Tirith is beyond me. Also, if the victim weren't an orc, I'd say these orcs are the ones of the White Hand.

Now, hopefully Ben was totally sane but I think it would still be nice if Leo claimed, though we can save that till later. And unless Macros has been totally nasty about this, the hobbits ought not to be evil (though I believe he has done that before...or was that AIM?) Again, Pip was inside the city at all times and Merry was outside in the battlefield. Has the game been changed for simplicity's sake? (probably)
Scalebane claims extremely weak doc. I wonder if he's been successful in saving anyone yet.

At this point, I'm going to

FOS: MGIA and DS

.
DS gets benefit of the doubt for now due to school load. Unless MGIA reveals some ground breaking news, I'm voting for him.

[Phoebus]

I'll wait for a claim before voting but it would be nice to know your other targets.

Also, meta game alert? Or is it just me?
Mac knew the results of last night's actions. He still told us to send in night choices even if there was a speed lynch. blatant? or brazen?

[Phoebus]

I know that! Just wondering if that means there is more scum. Because if DS is the last, he need not have asked for night actions. Maybe he was just trying not to ldrop too many clues.

[Phoebus]

While we wait for DS to oblige us, then would you mind sharing your thoughts about the other evil? I'm sure it's good to be prepared in advance. Maybe the problem might solve itself at night.

[Phoebus]

bah! Go town!

[Phoebus]

Hello.

I'm back and my first order of business is to

vote:Leonidas

if UT was not already.

The second order of business is to convince you guys to vote for him too.

Since mathcam and mlaker have confirmed each other, the process of elimination leaves only Leo as the last scum/evil type dude.
In a case where the hobbits (you guys) would be evil, I don't think we would be having this conversation for the numbers would ensure that the game be over. I doubt there would be a totally evil twist in the sense where one hobbit is evil...the other would know of it, I'm sure.

I am the Warden of the houses of healing. I have no idea why UT claimed 25% effectiveness. Unless Mac gave me the wrong message, I have a 50% chance of healing the wounded from battle whose grievous injuries bring their chances of survival down and halve my success rate.
And notice,

the

not

'a'

. I am the only one in the game since Scalebane counterclaimed and was found to be something else.

I do not have a name. I am pro town. I have no idea how Scalebane was able to claim the exact same role as mine. Perhaps Macros gave the scum hints as to the type of roles around. I do not know if that is the case for I am not scum.
I also know that you, mathcam and mlaker, have to be pro town. Looking at possible scenarios wherein the town could lose, since you guys have backed up each other's claims and the game is not over, I can only assume that I am the last remaining townie in a king maker situation if you are both scum along with leo being a loner, the Sk. At this point, I'm sure it would have been a cakewalk for you to build up votes on Leo's vote for UT and be done with it. There was no need to be discreet. However, you are willing to hear me (and earlier, UT) out which would only indicate your alleigance to the town. My alleigance lies with you.

Also remember, that Leo has been "cleared" only on the testimony of a cop we cannot be absolutely sure was sane. He has been fairly inactive throughout the latter half of the game (maybe even the first half but I'm not bothered to look up). He has been resting on the laurels of his clearance by Ben (Denethor) who was insane/naive - you decide - in the book and even the movie. Definitely not totally sane. You cannot disagree with me there. Perhaps he

is

Denethor's son but that would only add to the naivity of his, not taking his family to be evil. He definitely underestimated the worth of Faramir in the book and that might have pissed Faramir off here to make him turn evil.
However, the method of death is some mysterious pillar so I do not believe for a second that leo is Faramir and has to be our last scumbag who also has to be a SK. Did you notice the pillar kills went away for a bit around the time he moved to Korea? Perhaps he did not get some choices in. From my choices and results, I can tell you that none of my targets ever needed protection and Gandalf was the only other doc who was aleady dead on night 2 while the pillar killings continued. It has to be Leo. If it's not the both of you, for it certainly is not me.

Even in my earlier incarnation, I was suspicious of Leo throughout his resting on Ben's clearance. I still find him suspicious, Infact, he

is

the last evil person. I almost went after him the night I was killed. I thought then I'd rather go after Gnome for I didn't trust him but in the end, I desisted since being a vig is a hard role. Gnome had just helped us out the Witch King and I could not quite risk killing a cop. I had claimed Gimli. Now, the only thing Gimli could do was use that axe of his. So my vigi-ness is obvious., It is also obvious that Leo was fooled by Gnome since he helped us get DS and went after Gnome in the hope of nullifying his next investigation and praying/hoping that I would not target him if indeed he had figured I was a vig. If he had it figured, he took a calculated gamble for I did not strike. If he had not got it figured, he just got lucky for apprehension on my part.

With this, I rest my case. I hope it is good enough for you to get done with Leo and win this game for the town.

[Phoebus]

Lynch me and lose.
If that whole thesis up there does not convince you, nothing can. I'll just hope you'll read and re read the whole thing and guage it on its facts and merits before you decide to vote for me.
I'm off to bed. Will see you tomorrow.

[Phoebus]

Bad play Cam. I know you like to win. Atleast you like to be correct.
Well, here, you are wrong...unless you're scum. I am clinging on to the hope that mlaker's vote has not been logged and he'll still see light of day.

Another alternative here would be a no lynch. Remember that one scum and odd players makes no lynch a good option. I will try and use my night ability on one of you and hopefully it will work, and that should make it clear to you guys that leo is scum. If I end up dead, then I think it's pretty straightforward for you.

Please unvote and consider this option. mlaker never bolded his last vote so you still have breathing space to do the right thing. And if mlaker reads this soon, please don't revote until you've read my post above as well as thought thoroughly about a no lynch. Leo is pushing a bandwagon on an innocent.


And as far as Leo's quote is concerned, he conveniently forgets to look at the discussion wherein Ben questioned his own sanity. True he was never wrong about orcs and haradrim and stuff but that was because they are outsiders which dwell beyond the walls of Minas Tirith. There are all indications that Leo is not affiliated to any of the groups of harad/khand or the orcs looking at the method of death. So there is no precedent for assuming he too is from beyond the walls of the city. He could very well be inside it and therefore appear innocent to the Steward.
I have known cases of insane/naive cops turn sane at the death of some other player. You as a character, Cam, just helped keep his insanity together for whatever purpose as far as I see...most probably because of the nature of the cops and Leo needed an alibi.

Leo,
About the accusation of UT stealing the claim, he did not. As I said, unless Mac gave me the wrong PM, I have 50%. It is also not an aspersion on my ability but due to the fact that my patients are greatly injured in the first place, reducing their own chances of survival.

[Phoebus]

You want a no lynch so you can refrain from killing tonight and claim your 25% worked?

I'm sorry.

I did not

claim 25%. I claimed 50%.
And most probably, you want to make it appear that it worked by you yourself deciding not to kill.

And as for your double post, it's not all too much of crap considering it's a Macros game and there could easily be a twist lurking here. All the crap I see is you spouting off "I've been cleared by a cop" every time someone points even the tiniest finger in your direction. And how complacent can you be? You just assume your ability is gone? Why don't you confirm with Mac since it was not really needed and try and take me out tonight? I sure as hell can't protect myself. I am willing to be subject to your claimed vig kill which I don't think holds water even for a nano second.

unvote: Leo vote: no lynch

[Phoebus]

Thanks. I'll need it.
UT is not me. I am not him. I don't care how he played. I play this way.
And I can definitely say it was bad play from UT. If you want to meta, then meta along playing styles too. The not having a name is hardly an issue. Go find me a name for a Healing House Warden in the book and I will kill myself handing you the win.
My claim is different because I am paraphrasing the role I received. Perhaps Mac sent me a wrong one. Apologies in advance but it would not be the first error he committed in this game now would it? But perhaps he did not and UT is just careless. This probably boils down to UT having played badly in this game and stopping short of a personal attack on him for carelessness.
If you, Cam and mlaker, are going to hand scum the win over someone else playing badly and not taking into consideration a single argument of what his replacement is trying to say, then I'm sorry but I can't help you and cannot do anything else than to say that it will be more bad play, which then might be called as the hallmark of this game's endgame.
In a game where the person being replaced is so obviously scum, I seriously doubt that his replacement would be as vociferous as I have been. Perhaps I do not know human nature but on self reflection, I can say I would not.

I stand by my convictions. I am pro town. I do not waver in my beliefs. Lynch me and lose.

[Phoebus]

or possibly you'll hold off your kill and claim that you must have protected the right person.

I have no kill. And this is more frustrating for me than it is for leo who must be laughing his scummy head off. If you can't wait for mlaker, I think suicide would be more honourable than being lynched by a pair of halflings not yet of enough age to understand things of the world!

unvote: no lynch vote: leo

I agree a no lynch is fruitless and hence did not do it earlier. Since you were unwilling to play along, I thought no lynch would be acceptable.

bad bad play...after all this, saying "I told you so" would be very satisfying I think. I do not see how one would overlook UT's helping us catch scum with a false claim. He posted immediately after scale claimed and even as scum, I think it would have taken a bit of time to tack on to the idea of stealing a claim forthright and also balls enough to carry through with it, neither of which I would say UT has. Nothing personal against him but having seen him play elsewhere, I'd have especial doubts about the latter.

[Phoebus]

How exactly did Scalebane manage to claim your exact role?

I have no clue. I suspect Mac gave him a hint to other roles.
I am not scum. I was given no such hint. I am claiming the role given to me. Short of quoting the mod directly, there is nothing else I can do here.

2 major reasons

What would the other be?

And if you think that I'm making even a semblance of sense, could you please unvote before passing judgement again? it will make things easier. Atleast until you re state your second reason and I try to answer it to the best of my knowledge.

It

is

very funny to see Leo never denying his being scum and just relying on being "cleared by a cop" whereas here I am shouting myself hoarse and saying I'm not scum and still you do not believe me. Does mafia defy human nature so much? Or does it make players imperceptive to the basics of human conscience?
[/thoughtful rant]

[Phoebus]

mlaker...with both roles being questionable, and atleast with my predecessor helping us catch scum and with Leo lying back on his "cleared by a cop" excuse forever, can you not listen to reason?
You have been posting elsewhere. Why not here? I don't know. Did you even bother to read the posts since I came back? You just seem to be adamant about your position and intent on helping Leo win.

I can't believe I'm being hauled across coals for mistakes my predecessor made and while I agree some of the plays were questionable, I do not know why my defence carries no water.

Give me one solid reason other than "asking for help to the town" or "misclaiming ability" (both of which I have no idea why UT did) or "nameless claim" which did in the first place help us catch scum. How the scum could claim the exact same claim?

I DO NOT KNOW. I only know I'm pro town, with big fat GOOD written across my pm not BAD nor EVIL whichever word might have been used in scum PMs

. Give me that one infallible reason and I

will

end my own misery. Thank Pandora for that little sliver of human value called Hope still left in her box. But it just makes things frustrating...

[Phoebus]

It was indeed Denethor that cleared Leo and he's been resting on it ever since without offering any other evidence as to his innocence.

[Phoebus]

Phoebus is one hell of a player

Wow! Sarcastic flattery just to make your case more comfy? I'm impressed!
I've had the same impression about other people around here but with recent developments maybe I'll have to re think.

confirm vote:Leo

Cam, I can't believe you can be so gullible. This is so annoying that with the least of effort, Leo is romping home to victory. All the right evidence? My ass!
It's been misconstrued - whether intentionally by you or by Leo, I suppose we'll find out soon enough.

[Phoebus]

Very well Cam. Perhaps it was uncharacteristic of me up there ^^ (well not quite perhaps...definitely...)
And if it's unbecoming, I'll try and steer clear of being like that. However you

are

right about the frustration.
Why? It'll be revealed soon I suppose. Once mlaker logs on I don't see him not following you.

Airtight arguments against Leo? There is no such thing as airtight here. My situation will exhibit that perfectly when all is revealed. However,

no one

has proved Denethor's sanity. It has remained in question throughout. If Leo is good and so are you...then mac is playing an evil trick on me!
As for inactivity...I am not talking about now. I am talking about a specific period of time when the pillar kills ceased before returning again. Resting on his laurels
I'm convinced that he is!

And I will not comment on the parting shot lest it give me a tag of being obnoxious, which I don't think I am...

[Phoebus]

Ugh!

i think i was sane earlier and leo's probly innocent

Even he is not sure of his own sanity in a previous incarnation. Bah!

As I said somewhere earlier,

unless all three of you are scum on different participants...

I told you so

Not quite so satisfying as annoying.
BAH BAH Black sheep! *mutter*followleolikesheep*grumble*














Sorry. Can't help the rant.