Open 250 - Pie E7 Mark II

[sottyrulez]

Comfirm

[sottyrulez]

/confirm

I'm scum, btw. Lynch me nao and I won't kill you tonight!

...wait, that came out wrong.

I think the real question here is whether or not you're kidding this time.

[sottyrulez]

More than likely.

Do you?

[sottyrulez]

More than likely.

That's interesting. Do elaborate.

I (Zach) posted that for fun, mostly because of the way that worked out for you last time.

Since you have done it before it's a nulltell. (And no, I don't think you were serious, Sotty posted what you quoted.)

Also, I think the game officially starts tommorow and that the votes won't count anyway... but if they do, I'll go ahead and do this.

Vote: VP Baltar

We find his reaction to my comment interesting.

[sottyrulez]

Vote: VP Baltar

We find his reaction to my comment interesting.

Do elaborate. I'm finding this pre-game aggression quite amusing.

Why are you dodging the question?

Answer and I will elaborate. Simple.

[sottyrulez]

I don't think it's indicative of anything really. A null joke in reference to the last game that SK could say as either alignment...which is why I asked if you were being serious or not because your post 6 seemed like a feeler for people doubting it. Of course, you then backed off and said it's "more than likely" that he's kidding when I questioned. your turn.

The game hadn't (and still hasn't?) even started yet. After what happened in the first game it was pretty obvious we were joking about SK and his claim in usual RVS banter. You come in right away and make things serious by questioning us about the statement without adding any input of your own. It was really out of place and immediately tweaked our scumdar. Especially since you tried to make it out like we were the pregame aggressor.

Nopoint said it best, SK's post was a null tell because he probably planned to say something like that as soon as the game was cleared to go, he would have done it regardless of alignment. To try and make it into anything else is stretching.

Now you seem to be muddling in the middle of the road. If you thought we were really "putting out feelers" on SK, why didn't you come right at us. Your roundabout way of putting pressure our way is pretty scummy, it's like you are unsure if you want to commit or not. Doesn't feel town.

[sottyrulez]

Mod note: You guys realize game has not begun yet, right? lol

And why not? We think you should get with the program

[sottyrulez]

I think a single post can say a lot.

Asserting that page 1 is too early to scumhunt or find scum

is ludicrous.

[sottyrulez]

lol, where did I assert that page 1 is too early to scumhunt? isn't that what I was doing by asking you to clarify, finding motivations and such?

Do continue. This is getting quite informative.

Several times.

Nothing about your comment was "pretty obvious" that you were joking or not, hence why I asked you to clarify. I feel your comment definitely could have been read as being aggressive. Perhaps you didn't intend it that way, but that's the point of asking. If you read everyone else's joking posts, they are quite obviously jokes when compared to yours. It was worth asking about.

Also, your "muddling in the middle of the road" point is ludicrous for a game that hasn't started.

You're right I'm not committing to if you're scum or not because what the hell do I know from a single post?

Judging on alignment's like that is very poor play and you're both experienced enough to know that.

At least twice, (Each sentence counts as an instance.) and in the sentance after the last bolded comment you could argue it's a third, but I guess you could argue it's a weak attack on us instead.

Oh let's keep going.

Vote: VP Baltar

We find his reaction to my comment interesting.

Do elaborate. I'm finding this pre-game aggression quite amusing.

Which I interpreted as you saying it was too early AND rubbing our face in the fact that you think the point won't be taken seriously because it's too early.

[sottyrulez]

I really should stop these strikeouts before they get me in trouble. As it stands, I would vote you but then you would be at risk of being hammered on Page 2

before the game begins

. Which would keep St.Kerrigan playing indefinitely as I said but etc.

Oh that reminds me...

[sottyrulez]

So now we're reaching because we are pressuring you on actual things you have done in thread? It doesn't matter how early in the game it is or isn't, if something is scummy, it's scummy. You are trying to apply qualifiers to it which doesn't work. You made the pregame serious. You then tried to say we sparked the aggression which was false. You then started to mock us by saying things like we “amuse you” and that if we are town we “should play better.” I think you should heed your own advice.

[sottyrulez]

@Vi - I know you two are in cahoots! But seriously, did you read Sotty's SK post as an obv. joke? If so, what gave you that impression? Context alone?

I didn't read it as an obvjoke (although it could be seen that way; add a to the end and it changes the meaning).

...this may not be as clear-cut as I had thought. <.<

I intended it to be. VP makes a valid point that it's not obvious from the context alone.

Sotty thinks it was an obv-joke, and I understand why, she knows be better than you guys. (This should be kept in mind when reading her previous posts.)

Of course VP focusing on it seems intended to sidetrack the actual points we've raised on him.

[sottyrulez]

Vote: VP Baltar

[sottyrulez]

VP what do you actually think about our play at this point and what do you think it points to regarding us?

[sottyrulez]

And don't say I don't know.

[sottyrulez]

I don't......




...really care for your aggressiveness in reply to what was really a simple question. It has made me highly wary of you at this point, which I don't like the feeling of because I feel like I should be able to read either of you the easiest out of the entire player list. You came across as mildly scummy in our little tiff. That being said, I'd like to here from the entire playerlist before I get too crazy with accusations. We're almost to page 3!

Players that tend to have an easy time reading me also tend to have a high probability of being scum in games where they say they have trouble reading me. (Otherwise known as feigning igorance at what they know about me.)



See that guy? He's pointing you to the gallows.

[sottyrulez]

Our reasoning for calling you scum in the last game has absolutely nothing to do with this game.

[sottyrulez]

VP you make me sad calling us stupid.

We have some valid points in our case against you, in particular the fact you asserted we were the early aggressor which wasn't true. Also the fact you didn't engage in any of the crazy pregame shenanigans and just right away to questioning us. That was and still is, scummy feeling.

Lets put aside the whole "LOLEARLYGAME!" defense, do you think these are stupid reasons to see you as scummy?

[sottyrulez]

The holding back of a vote is strange as well. Town VP would just vote for whoever without worrying about what others would say.

Yeah we want everyone to contribute but this feels like you are playing it safe.

[sottyrulez]

Point two conceded. (Except for the first sentence which I strongly disagree with.)

It is a plausable view from your POV.

[sottyrulez]

[quote="VP Baltar"]1) I think you did behave aggressively even if you don't. I can only go by what you're saying in thread, not what your intentions are or were.[quote]

To this point. Sotty is aggresive as town. I can be a lot more aggresive as town.

[sottyrulez]

EBWOP

1) I think you did behave aggressively even if you don't. I can only go by what you're saying in thread, not what your intentions are or were.

To this point. Sotty is aggresive as town. I can be a lot more aggresive as town. (A LOT MORE.)

[sottyrulez]

I've been aware of my scum meta for longer than just this game, and it's done very little in helping me manipulate it.

[sottyrulez]

And tbh, I think your reaction has more to do with the fact that the attack targeted you than any assessment of the rationality behind it.

I suspect you wouldn't find any evidence we presented against you to be rational. (Most especially if you actually are scum.)

[sottyrulez]

Unvote: VP

VP's reaction is plausible as town. His actions regarding us look like they could be an honest attempt to assess our play with scumhunting. I also think he's prone to see attacks on himself as scummier than they might actually be as town.

CKD on the other hand looks like he's trying not to ruffle any feathers.

Vote:CKD

He ignored the epic VP v SR fight like the plague, intent instead to joke vote SK. The explanation of “getting the game started” doesn't seem to gel considering what was already happening.

Equinox and Nopoint haven't posted, but a check of their activity reveals they haven't posted on site since Tuesday... so it's null if annoying.

We're not sure about SK. We don't like his dig on VP in post 64, feels like stirring the pot a little. He also hasn't made a vote. We wanna know his reads ASAP.

Consider this our application into awesometownbloc '10.

[sottyrulez]

must...resist....ironic....hammer.....

It would only be truly ironic if SK hammered

[sottyrulez]

Unvote: Vote: Equinox

I hate hate hate HATE unvoting claimed vanillas (Especially in a game like this.) but Equinox's unvote post was soooooooooooooo scummy, I pretty much have to vote her here.

VP, you pretty much took the thoughts out of our head with your vote post on Equinox. We were literally thinking the same thing at that exact point in time. (We actually wanted to see how Vi would react before we actually posted.)

The Equinox's vote/unvote just does not feel natural at all. It felt like she literally just lost complete interest in pressuring him just because he claimed vanilla. (If she hadn't actually done that I would have called for the hammer.)

In this game it's absolutely devastating to run people up to claims and simply let the wagon die on a vanilla claim. You have a pool of 7 players, 3 of which are vanilla and 2 of which are power roles. You get even one vanilla claim, the odds of scum neutralizing one pr becomes a certainty if the day ends with anything other than a scum lynch. (Unless the claim is being made by scum.)

Basically assuming the lynch of another vanilla, the pool falls to 1 vanilla and 2 power roles

Scum get to kill one and roleblock another. (And since they know one person is already vanilla they don't need to touch them.)

Compare that with the lynch of a vanilla without running up another. Then it's a pool of 2 vanillas and 2 power roles. It's still likely the scum might hit one, but the odds of that happen are lower and the odds of hitting both are also lower.

In short, running people up to lynch -1 without being serious about lynching them is scuuuuuuuuuuuuuuummy. Vi even comments on this but then calls Equinox town anyway, this is ridiculous.

CKD, that claim was very premature and extremely anti-town... but it also happens to be my strongest argument for lynching you at this point, as nothing else in your play makes me feel confident that you'll actually flip scum. (We also covered what bothered us about your play here.)

HEY

HEY SOTTY

HEY ZACH

HEY VPB

Why don't we get over ourselves and form an AwesomeTownBloc^TM? I don't really think either of you are scum as of this extremely late point in this game, and there are only a few other players left. (Besides, it's how I wanted the first game to play out )

Followed most recently by this.

sottyrulez and VP Baltar back-and-forth nearly gave me a headache. I'm getting town vibes from both of them.

Good, I'm not the only one. Though the sudden kiss+make up between VPB and sottyrulez is kind of unsettling.

You don't get to tell us to get over ourselves and then say you're unsettled when we actually do. This leaves me thinking that you wanted to play voice of reason and that you actually wanted us to keep fighting to the death for the next 10 pages.

VP is town btw. He's dead on in pointing out the scum benefit to rolefishing in placing a lynch -1 vote in the situation that Equinox did, and it was something he could have easily done himself if he was scum. It's ridiculous that you're trying to make him out to look scummy for this when it's quite clear it's the most pro-town thing he has done all game.

[sottyrulez]

Quite the opposite, the more claims we have D1 the

less broken the game is for Town

the more likely scum is to have a fair chance at endgame.

It is not town's job to give the scum a fair chance.

Scummy.

The argument that Equinox backed down after a claim is absolutely worthless for the following reasons.
*EQUINOX DIDN'T ASK FOR ONE. I've had a bit of a rush of pointing out obvious things these days and it's bringing me into the SCREAMING DEATH CLUB in spite of me actually hating that style of play, but THIS IS ON THE PAGE.

Come on man. This is silly, you put someone at lynch-1 what do you think happens next? Site meta is to get a claim if someone wants to hammer. If Equinox didn't want one, she shouldn't have voted for CKD. End of story.

*If you believe a claim, you should unvote. Why stick with voting Town?

This is the biggest point of contention we have. There is no reason,

NONE

to unvote a VT claim. Even more so in this kind of set up, the tone reasoning is a weak excuse.

Equinox votes for CKD, this means she finds things he does scummy.
CKD claims VT
Equinox unvotes because of

tone

? Really? Horrible, horrible, horrible.

*Equinox didn't actually unvote right after the claim. She stuck with it for a post.

…..So?

No, I am not unvoting until you give me what I want. You haven't done that yet.

This is also awful. She unvotes in the very next post. SHE IS ALREADY LOOKING FOR AN EASY OUT ONCE CKD CLAIMS!

Seriously.

[sottyrulez]

Quite the opposite, the more claims we have D1 the

less broken the game is for Town

the more likely scum is to have a fair chance at endgame.

It is not town's job to give the scum a fair chance.

Scummy.

I was going to just say to your whole post that my opinion has already been given on everything you said, but this is so stupid that I have to call you out for being stupid. Sorry*.

Uh no.

Come on man. This is silly, you put someone at lynch-1 what do you think happens next? Site meta is to get a claim if someone wants to hammer. If Equinox didn't want one, she shouldn't have voted for CKD. End of story.

Wait, so everyone on this site to include a "mouthwatering" elite player list is also stupid? Good to know.

Equinox is not stupid. That is the point.

Our position was that she was employing a tactic to

rolefish

, not making a "mistake."

She's played in many games and claiming is the freaking standard after lynch -1 in most mafia games. I'm certain Equinox is aware of that.

This is the biggest point of contention we have. There is no reason, NONE to unvote a VT claim. Even more so in this kind of set up, the tone reasoning is a weak excuse.

Without taking the setup into account, I disagree and always have.
In this particular setup, you actually have a point for reasons mentioned before.

Yet here we are eh?

Next question. If there is no reason, NONE to unvote a VT claim, why are we not lynching (more specifically, you not voting) ckd? Suppose you're wrong about Equinox and we lynch her. Now we have a dead Townie of some kind AND a claimed Vanilla lying around, and we're in an even worse situation. At least with lynching ckd we don't have any more claims. With that in mind, face it, you didn't "pretty much HAVE to vote Equinox" at all.

We're not lynching/voting CKD because the wagon died. Equinox played a large role in that, you know this. We had absolutely no intention of unvoting CKD before that. Equinox played a significant role in killing the bandwagon and she's scummy for it.

We are not voting for anyone other that CKD or Equinox. Yes it will be disastrous if both CKD and Equinox turn out to be town, but right now we think Equinox has a higher chance of being scum than CKD.

It comes down to, should we make a strategic move or a move that most likely catches scum? In this situation it is not an easy choice at all. If we all come together and decide to lynch CKD, then we will switch votes and do it.

Yes I know this flies completely in the face of my own vote, but then I'm using your premises for this question, not mine.

Actually let's do this.

Unvote: nopointactingup
Vote: sottyrulez

(L-3)

You're reaching for ways to accuse me at this point, especially with that first point.

This is laughable. You are defending the scummiest player in the thread, of course you are going to look bad as a result. You could try scum hunting, it might help. Instead you are defending Equinox for what exactly? It seems like you agreed her unvote was bad and yet she's town?

Now you OMGUS us over what you seem to be saying is playstyle differences. We would lynch a VT without hesitation and you wouldn't.

How does that make us scum?

Equinox unvotes because of tone? Really? Horrible, horrible, horrible.

This is almost ALWAYS the reason people unvote VT claims. Typical, typical, typical.

The way she said it doesn't ring genuine. At all.

[sottyrulez]

sotty's points are all garbage that I've swatted down already. But this is the best part.

We would lynch a VT without hesitation and you wouldn't.

How does that make us scum?

You're not lynching a VT without hesitation

right now

. In fact, it's like you

backed down

from a VT claim instead of pushing it like "welp, end of day right there". HMM.

COMPLETELY IGNORED CRUCIAL PARTS OF POST.

lol... if you want to drop the act Vi, that would just be awesome.

[sottyrulez]

sottyrulez: Would I be correct in assuming that today's posts were made by Sotty7?

Well you are sorta right.

We have been working together on all of todays posts so far in a QT. Zach has been at work and throwing ideas around and I have been editing and composing them into posts that he also edits and so on until we are both happy that the points we want have been inculded. Technically I have been the one pressing submit, but today has been a more of a combined effort.

Why does it matter?

In other news Vi continues to make us

[sottyrulez]

We're not lynching/voting CKD because the wagon died. Equinox played a large role in that, you know this. We had absolutely no intention of unvoting CKD before that. Equinox played a significant role in killing the bandwagon and she's scummy for it.

Well, in fairness, I think your unvote was much more crucial to the demise of the wagon. He was still at L-2, yeah? If you felt so passionately about him needing to be lynched, I would think you would have argued for it and explained why it was necessary.

We are not voting for anyone other that CKD or Equinox. Yes it will be disastrous if both CKD and Equinox turn out to be town, but right now we think Equinox has a higher chance of being scum than CKD.

And then this basically sounds in contradiction of always lynch VT in E7. You're either scumhunting or playing strategy. I'm happy to have support for my Equinox wagon, but I don't like your cognitive dissonance at all. You really need to pick a side of your own argument.

(Zach posting.)

This is EXACTLY WHY I hate premature vanilla claims. There IS no actual reason why you should leave the wagon, but people do. (As Vi pointed out in her attack of us because of tone which is a horrible reason to leave it.) Leaving the wagon because you think someone is scum is a better cause, but again, the strategy and logistics of it ANGER me, because that claimed vanilla is very likely ALWAYS going to be there if you don't lynch them.

There is precedent for my conflicted opinion here.

I linked from the point I respond to The Butterfly's claim, and despite my strong feeling that claimed vanillas should be lynched, I did end up voting elsewhere before eventually going back to that wagon. (Which at the very least demonstrates that despite my feeling on the matter, I don't follow it as an absolute.)

Also, there's nothing stopping us from going back to CKD, the only real reasons not to lynch him today is having a strong scum read on someone else, (Equinox, and even Vi.) and perhaps precedent for him to pull moves like this as town in the past.

[sottyrulez]

Also I would submit that Equinox unvoting over tone, and not having a better place for her vote is a significantly larger offense than us unvoting for having a bigger scumread. (Her)

[sottyrulez]

I like how I'm apparently scum and a viable lynch candidate solely through connection to someone who hasn't flipped.

There's a difference between finding your play scummy and wanting to lynch you today.

Leaving the wagon because you think someone is scum is a better cause, but again, the strategy and logistics of it ANGER me, because that claimed vanilla is very likely ALWAYS going to be there if you don't lynch them.

And if that claimed Vanilla is Town, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

How about it? Is ckd more likely Town? (objectively, not "more likely Town THAN someone else")

A scum lynch is better. Your question re: CKD's likelihood of being town has already been addressed. Interpret our stated opinions how you like.

[sottyrulez]

Yes. Ever since Vi started defending Equinox for no real reason we have been thinking they are a team together and that Vi is trying to protect her roleblocker. It doesn't feel viable that ViTown would go so far out of her way like this for Equinox(unknown). It doesn't fit.

[sottyrulez]

(Sotty posting)

Okay let me break it down for you. Vi has done a lot to distract from how this all actually went down. She has tried to make this into a mafia discussion situation over townie claims rather than actual scum hunting. I'm upset that VP has fallen for this too.

Order of events

• CKD acts scummy and gets run up to lynch -1 and claims early.

At this point we were happy with this wagon if pissed at the claim. Equinox's vote was quick but we thought CKD was probable scum. Plus, if CKD was a townie his early claim hurt us, he needed to hang.

When the claim came, Zach said to me “suspect the first person to unvote” and I agreed. Unvoting a VT claim at this kind of a game is horrible play. I don't care what Vi has to say. It's bad.

• Equinox unvotes CKD quickly based on “tone”

We have established this is an “elite” player list several times. None of us are stupid even if we want to throw that name around now and then. The fact is Equinox put CKD at lynch -1. Site meta dictates, that if you don't want a claim or a lynch DON'T PUT SOMEONE AT LYNCH -1. I know this, Vi knows this, Equinox knows this.

Yet she unvotes for tone. It was too easy, she clearly wasn't committed to her vote. Why?

Equinox isn't silly. She was rolefishing. Power role? Nope? Okay... I'll back off. That's what it looks like.

Right now Zach is hot. He spends several posts ranting in the QT about CKD's claim and how freaking scummy Equinox is. I agree on all fronts. The big issue was, do we push though on the scummiest looking player (Equinox) or do we lynch CKD who claimed townie?

Now, I'm not the setup expert (geek) here like some of you are but Zach starting quoting math at me, something like if CKD's claim is true and he isn't lynched the power roles only have a 33% chance of doing some good. I'll let him come in her and set the math right once he wakes up. But basically it is bad.

The only thing I regret right now is not posting and demanding that Equinox revotes CKD ASAP with an explanation of why. If we had done that things might be a little more clear. I'll just say emotions got the better of us.

• We decide to wait for Vi to comment on what went down

This was Zach's idea. We were at odds surrounding Vi. Zach wasn't really liking her suggestion of the voting bloc and I thought she was looking townie enough. My argument was we can go along with her for now and if she starts being scummy, change our minds.

Anyway, we wait. Still stewing over the claim and unvote ordeal. VP had already said much of what we wanted to say. In fact he said it such away we both at near the same time proclaimed him town. His confusion, weariness and general posting since all this has happened has all but convinced me of that. We basically disagree with everything Vi posts in 97. Her attempt to dirty VP is ridiculous and she proclaims Equinox town

for no reason

Vi knows the set up. She knows how this works and yet no bad words for Equinox at all in her first reaction post.

• We finally post

After a lot of thinking we decide to join VP on Equinox. It wasn't an easy choice but here are the main bullet point reasons

-Equinox's rolefishing
-CKD's propensity to do this kinda thing as town
-Our belief that VP is town.

After post 97 we were both on the Vi is scum theory. VP also questions her about what she said and Vi claims not to have read.

I didn't read anything about Equinox L-1ing ckd and demanding a claim (in fact Equinox seemed dismally surprised at the claim). I skimmed like that whole page and posted in five minutes, and don't have the time NOW to reread (maybe; I have to see if I need to leave for school now or not). So etc.

^Weak sauce. This allows her to distance herself slightly and retool after we proclaimed her scummy and VP was looking wearily in her direction.

Her follow up post in 104 is basically, omg everyone looks townie so I will vote a lurker! Please.

In our post 98 we laid out the whole not unvoting a VT and Vi skims over than for now, deciding to generally address it rather than all out attack us. It feels like she is trying to pacify us by not “exploding” on us.

This is important because of what happens next.

• We respond still calling Vi and Equinox scummy

This doesn't make Vi happy. She goes from not agreeing with us but we are still townie, to voting us. She asks us why we unvoted CKD despite us being VERY CLEAR in post 98 as to why. This was all information that was already out there and Vi chose to call us town anyway.

It wasn't until we made it abundantly clear that we were gunning for her as well did she decide to flip the script and pull the switch on us to make us look bad. If this was a geniune thought process, why not question it

right away?

Why wait? Why sit on it?

It's not townie motivation.

• Vi goes on all out attack

This wouldn't be so bad if she hadn't already called us town for stating these opinions. Nothing changed form us from when we reacted to CKD's claim and Equinox's unvote, yet Vi is coming for us.

Why the change of heart? Probably because we won't back down.

• Vi continues to say we should still be voting CKD as a way to discredit us

For some reason Vi is desperate for us to be voting CKD. Never mind the fact we have a bigger read on other people. She doesn't even attempt to take our scum hunting under consideration. The case on Equinox

isn't

this one point. Vi is trying to say it is.

In our eyes Equinox deflated the CKD wagon.
We explained why this was scummy and why we switched.
Vi continues to repeat this argument until it takes hold.

Either you believe our original post 98 or you don't. It's that simple. Vi seemed to believe it.

Vi decides to ignore our actual case on Equinox and instead does nothing but hammers on the CKD point. The easiest part of the argument to beat.

Okay this is turning out into a wall... I have more to say, conclusion coming up.

[sottyrulez]

We feel the actual case on Equinox has been drowned out by Vi repeatedly talking about our belief surrounding VTs. It is my belief that scum are much more likely to unvote at townie when they are at lynch-1 because they know the claim to be true.

This is what Equinox did.

This is the main reason we find her scummy.

Putting someone at lynch-1 is a game of chicken. Equinox blinked first and in such away we can't ignore. Could we had done more to beef CKD's wagon back up again, yeah, probably. But we decided to push on another player who we thought is more likely to be scum.

I contend that unvoting at lynch-1 and unvoting at lynch-2 are two completely different things.

Equinox's original vote on CKD was pretty weak. She padded the case a little and spent time agreeing with what other people said. Also lets not forget what happened in the first game. The idea of a quick hammer couldn't be dismissed. Yet Equinox

voted anyway

I don't believe anyone who thinks that Equinox didn't know what was going to happen next. Pretty sure she didn't expect the claim to come so quick, but she knew it was the next step. I submit Newbie 960. Here Memnon had been run up to lynch -1 and he was asking about not claiming. It makes her thoughts very clear me thinks.

So the rubbish that Equinox didn't expect a claim needs to stop.

What do we have on Equinox so far?

-Weakish lynch-1 vote
-Quick unvote based off tone. Lets look at that.

CKD's claim

In Equinox's

very next post

she is already talking about unvoting.

No, I am not unvoting until you give me what I want. You haven't done that yet.

well, I sort of understand where you are coming from on thinking I am buddying...though i am not, but whatever, the proof is in the pudding...you also seem to scan over my this post toward Vi.

hmmm.....but no comment on my different play style?

I dont recall being so jokey last time around.

scum hunting bud...i give him a "town" cred, to see what he does with it....and wondered why he didnt comment on my change in style...if i felt he was completely town, do you really think I would follow up with this?....but I guess that didnt really fit into your "he is scum buddying" theory..so you left it out when pushing the thoery?

everything else is utter crap...spreading my vote around = scummy? voting someone who hasnt posted in game in the first 3 pages of a new game = scummy?...bullshit....

do you really believe those things are scummy?

Yeah, I scanned over it because I didn't see the relevancy to post 41. Now that you've pointed it out, though, it makes sense.

UNVOTE: L-2

....but I guess that didnt really fit into your "he is scum buddying" theory..so you left it out when pushing the thoery?

Are you suggesting that I'm simply pushing a case and not trying to discern alignment? Don't pull the VP Baltar move again; one headache's enough.

spreading my vote around = scummy? voting someone who hasnt posted in game in the first 3 pages of a new game = scummy?...bullshit....

You're missing the point. I won't argue that "voting someone who hasn't posted in-game" by itself is not scummy, but doing it while ignoring a major part of the game is odd.

There is a disconnect here. What was in post 88 that gave Equinox what she wanted? I don't see anything at all. Hell, she is still questioning him in her unvote post, I don't get it at all. It looks bad, there is no reasoning that I can see. Plus she didn't explain why, why no transparency?

I also find it weird that ckd has now shifted well up the list over his tone, but I guess that's a personal thing.

It is. I like reading tones. Seems to work.

...It doesn't add up to me. It isn't natural and I sure as hell don't feel townie motivation from this action.

Since then Equionx hasn't really done any scum hunting. Asking pointless questions like who was posting in our hydra, for no reason. She hasn't voted again. She's doing a lot of nothing hoping this fight between ourselves and Vi distracts.

And Vi wants to defend this? Why? It makes us believe Vi knows more about Equinox than the rest of us.

By all means, disagree with the unvoting a VT claim, but I fail to see how our belief surrounding that makes us scum. Vi, maybe you should break that down for us.

[sottyrulez]

Any time someone says "I only skimmed" they are attempting to distance from what they posted. In a "I only skimmed and may have missed important things" kinda way.

Vi I have agreed that we disagree on the VT thing, I don't know how many times we can repeat that. You are not scummy for disagreeing, nobody is perfect, you are scummy for your reaction and how it changed as listed above.

Any time you want to break down, point by point why us not voting CKD is a scum tell in light of all that has happened in this thread I'm willing to listen. You haven't done this.

Of course if Equionx does flip town we will take a long hard look at our thoughts on you. But anytime you want to stop pushing theory and get your hands dirty with this actual game I'd welcome it.

We haven't voted for you because our read on Equinox is stronger. You are just louder. Hence our wonderings of RB'er protection, keeping in mind what you said to us in our last QT.

People link others all the time, if you are town, your failure to be able to see things from our side of the fence is your downfall.

[sottyrulez]

It almost feels like you are trying to goad us into voting you in the way you ignore key parts of the Equinox case and keep shouting about the VT thing without any real explanation.

[sottyrulez]

Actually that did happen. But I was presenting that game to demonstrate that Equinox knows what happens when someone is at lynch-1. She epically fence sat though out Newbie 960 and I was on her a lot of the time for it. She hasn't really been fence sitting here. Unless you want to argue that her unvote and then taking forever to re-vote counts.

I'm arguing that she shouldn't have put CKD at lynch-1 if she didn't want the claim and/or lynch. Saying she didn't expect a claim isn't true.

I had actually forgotten how quickly she abandoned her case in that game until reading again here. I literally just did a search of Newbie 960 (my only one with her) to see if she commented on claiming and she did.

The stubborn player in me wants to say things are very different from this game to that, but I will probably re-read the Newbie 960 instance and see if it is similar. Expect more comments on that later

[sottyrulez]

In other news, we haven't read anything in detail since my posting this morning. Been busy mostly and now we are watching the Panic Bowl '10. So we're here, but don't expect anything meaningful for a little while. Only saw that question because Zach happened to check the game.

[sottyrulez]

It's worth saying that the last person who used the "oops vanilla claim, must lynch" argument on me was a scum IC, link providable upon request.

Link please.

I think it's crap to say it actually makes us more likely scum... but still, it would explain a lot.

[sottyrulez]

I present Newbie 960 as evidence that my behavior towards CKD in this game matches my town meta.

Yeah, "meta sucks," etc., etc. (Blatantly stolen from CKD.) In that game, I reread more than several pages to get reads on Day 1 because Sotty7 wasn't happy that I was fence-sitting. My conclusion was that NomDePlume was scum, and I'd built a pretty big case for that. NDP presented a one-post rebuttal, after which I felt my case was poorly founded and I dropped it.

The fact that Sotty7 has missed this part AND THEN PRESENTED THE GAME AS EVIDENCE makes me wonder if she isn't simply pushing.

Keep in mind that this presentation of evidence has no bearing on my future behavior! I am citing the past, not the future.

Yay! Meta me! I've done this as town, so it's a town tell!

... No.

Also it doesn't apply as a meta point because in that situation you didn't place and then rescind a lynch -1 vote. That makes that situation drastically different to this one. It's anti-town results, and your possible motivations based on YOUR OWN assertion of what the likely consequences of putting someone at lynch -1 are in that very same game, are very much at the heart of the matter here.

[sottyrulez]

Also, we're going to

Unvote: Vote: CKD

You don't get to cause all this to happen, and then offer nothing more than minimal input. In this situation you're either scum, or you're town who has committed an extremely anti-town act, and right now, you need to be making a rather large argument toward why you shouldn't be lynched, including an extensive list of suspicions on who you think is likely scum.

[sottyrulez]

Yay! Meta me! I've done this as town, so it's a town tell!

Nope. Null tell. You've been using it as a scum tell, so I'm presenting that I've done it before to show that it's not necessarily a scum tell.

Sure, you can say the situation doesn't really apply because it wasn't an L-1, BUT it does apply when you claim my case wasn't genuine because I dropped my case

so quickly

. I do it often enough that it's a null tell for me.

I've also already presented my past and present views about L-1 claiming, which should explain the position I was holding at the time of my CKD L-1 vote. But if reading that causes too much cognitive dissonance for you...

It IS enough that my other half is doubting the basis of the case on you now based on meta. (I personally still don't like the fact that you did it here in a situation where you put a vote on that actually turned out to be weak, because you unvoted easily, said vote resulted in lynch -1, caused a claim, and your unvote reduces the chances of that vanilla claim actually being lynched. (Which is detrimental to town to let him live if he's actually vanilla, and even taking another angle on it even links you to CKD.))

Also still waiting on ckd to check in with actual content or confirm that he's not going to post anything enlightening for the rest of the Day.

To be fair, there's way too many walls. (And... uh, some of that is my fault.)

I actually haven't even gotten through all the walls, I'm trying to keep responses short here to important points. I may have more as I continue to read through

[sottyrulez]

If a single response can incline you to unvote, your reasoning for said vote is NOT strong.

[sottyrulez]

If a single response can incline you to unvote, your reasoning for said vote is NOT strong.

Why do you keep insisting it was a

single

response? CKD responded to me more than once (twice, actually, but still).

Now we're just getting semantical. My point stands. (Regardless of a pair of responses or a single one.)

[sottyrulez]

@SK - how was the purpose of your vote achieved when nopoint hadn't even posted yet?

@sottyrulez- I'd like your comments on SK please.

He's been relatively invisible, and hasn't posted a whole lot. This also makes getting a solid read harder, but I'll flip through his ISO here quick.

Equinox, nopoint. Get in here, stat!

And tbh, I think your reaction has more to do with the fact that the attack targeted you than any assessment of the rationality behind it.

I agree with this. Getting a little testy, VP? At least sottyrulez is attempting to see the other point of view.

Didn't like this jab, still don't.

just getting the game started, you are not concerned with Vi's vote?..why?

Because Vi made the vote an obvious joke, and even stated it was such. You voted me and said it was "for real", which I find a bit jarring when juxtaposed with your explanation that you were merely "getting the game started".

EBWOP: Also, why the quick switch to nopoint?

Noting this.

Next 4 posts are filler, the last one is just unnecissary.

Iso #10: Won't quote because it will wall this post up bad, but basically votes nopoint after making comments on others in his catchup post. It doesn't jibe well with his stated positions.

Iso #11: His nopoint vote is CRAP as he explains it because Nopoint is posting content. (My understanding of what Nopoint actually said was that he wanted content from SK in order to further work on his reads, esentially wanting a read on SK to figure out the whole picture better. NOTHING wrong that.) Names Vi as top suspect. (Why vote here instead of in 10? It makes no sense.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

That's all the stuff I find interesting.

My conclusion is that he's scummy.

[sottyrulez]

Equinox

MY WALL IS BIGGER THAN YOURS.

First wall: nopointinactingup

After all that build-up, post 137 is a pretty big disappointment.

His style has changed drastically from the last game. His former-game gambit suggested that he was eager to scum hunt at game beginning ( which is opposite from me actually =P ), while in this game he hardly makes an attempt to scum-hunt, resorting instead to mostly jokes and masochist-like comments while masking himself with votes on the inactives

tl;dr "CKD isn't playing like his meta, so he's probably scum."

First point of contention: "...which is opposite from me actually." Are you saying that you were unwilling to participate in the game initially? I understand that you had to go on V/LA for the greater part of the game day, so I apologize if I take your statement the wrong way. However, this piques my interest. Why?

Second point of contention: While I agree that CKD not using his town status to maximum advantage is quite worrying, you... seem to disagree with the assessment of the majority here. What about CKD's claim and subsequent posts do you not believe?

Can you explain exactly what you are trying to say in the second point of contention? I want to know what you were thinking at the time if possible.

Please no one else comment on this until Equinox does, thanks.

= = = = = =

Currently going back though the more recent pages VP, not ignoring your question but ask again later.

[sottyrulez]

(Sotty)

That question was not for no reason. Just because I ask and then not follow up does not mean that I ask it for fun. We went over the operation of your hydra in the first game, where you admitted that you did the majority of the posting because you were better at being scum. I felt this aspect of your meta was one of those things you can't really remedy, which was why I asked who was posting for future reference.

One, we admitted no such thing in the last game. In fact I said quite clearly that I made Zach post the case against VP to manipulate

his

low posting scum meta. A ploy that VP almost fell for. In the last game we sweated over every post pretty much but it was about 50/50 on who actually sat down and typed it out.

Secondly, if this was your reasoning for asking this question why did you not say so when I asked you? You can't be outraged at something you don't post in thread, I'm not a mind reader. Yet at least.

For the record, we're both kinda posting right now, running things by each other but unless we're switching our vote/making cases, we will both be posting somewhat freely.

Sotty7... I know you have a tendency to tunnel (coughnewbie960cough), but the confirmation bias WRT me is getting ridiculous.

FTR we weren't tunneling.

Do you think tunneling is a town or a scum tell?

= = = = = =

@sottyrulez #76: What do you mean by "stirring the pot?" I was just trying to break up an overinflated argument that was consuming both you and VP so we could move on to more productive things.

String the pot, fanning the flames... You know fueling the fire. It just didn't feel right. Thought it explained itself really.

= = = = = =

@sottyrulez - Have you looked at the game Equinox linked? What are your thoughts on that? Do you think the game you linked is completely comparable to this situation?

I only clicked on the link to see what she said.

As for the game I linked, I just wanted people who kept saying that Equinox didn't expect a claim to stop. She knew what was coming. I agree the right way to go about it is for someone to to say “I'm gonna hammer, claim.” but that didn't happen here. But don't put someone at lynch-1 if you don't at least want a claim. Seriously..... [/deadhorse]

= = = = = = =

Other things

- A lot of Equinox's color posts were heavy on the rhetoric. I started to feel like I was reading a political smear thread. Not pleasant.
-I actually like nopoint. I thought he came out looking better in his spat with Equinox. I like the too many town reads point too. It helped me catch scum before
-Agree with Vi in post 174. SK's vote did come out of nowhere. I didn't get the whiney tone really, but the vote blindsided me
- SK's OMGUS vote is bad. (Yes that means scummy)

[sottyrulez]

CKD, that claim was very premature and extremely anti-town... but it also happens to be my strongest argument for lynching you at this point, as nothing else in your play makes me feel confident that you'll actually flip scum.

what is anti-town about it? was it scummy (the claim) or just anti-town?

The first question has been beaten to death ITT. We have detailed why it is anti town extensively, not interested in started that up again.

If we thought it was scummy, we would have said so.

• CKD acts scummy and gets run up to lynch -1 and claims early.

At this point we were happy with this wagon if pissed at the claim.

I dont understand this, how can you be happy with the wagon (because you think I am scum) but then be pissed at the claim (because I supposedly shrank the PR pool)...why cant I be scum fakeclaiming in your eyes?..the only reason you would be "pissed" (atp) is because you know I am town. If you thought I was scum, then the VT claim should just have been a fake claim.

If you hadn't skimmed the bulk of the game you would know we addressed the possibility that you were scum fake claiming, in that it wouldn't harm the town at all.

Your logic about being pissed over your claim is faulty. Everyone in thread was pissed at your claim, are we all scum?

[sottyrulez]

-I actually like nopoint. I thought he came out looking better in his spat with Equinox. I like the too many town reads point too. It helped me catch scum before

In unsurprising news, I don't agree with any of this - considering I had the same problem (too many Town reads) when I voted npau. If I have Town reads on {ckd, Equinox, VP Baltar?, sottyrulez}, then etc. npau dodging pointed questions after his Equinox+ckd case didn't take hold and St.K's general existence actually lends itself to this a bit.

He dodged questions? I missed that. Can you direct me to the post in question?

I also called you out on the too many town thing when you made that post, but yeah.

CKD, I'm not sure what you are driving at. We were happy with your wagon at the time because we thought you would flip scum, hence our vote.
THEN you claimed in the manner you did.
We became pissed after this because of copious reasons detailed in thread (math + anti town + shrinking of vanilla pool + etc). An emotion that was further compounded by Equinox's behavior.

[sottyrulez]

Equinox apparently has enough time to post multiple times in another game, but apparently not enough time to post here.

I've been watching her activity today like a hawk. We're waiting for her response to our previous posts.

Saintkerrigan hasn't been posting much in any of his games.

[sottyrulez]

Unvote, Vote:Equinox

[sottyrulez]

We'll make this simple. We're waiting for a response to 213, and we're fed up with your thread dodging.

[sottyrulez]

I was about to post something but I got ninjaed. I'll let Sotty explain the reasoning behind the vote. (It's her find.) It's not because we think she's lurking. (That was kind of a last straw, but the vote was moving to her anyway.)

[sottyrulez]

Second point of contention:

While I agree that CKD not using his

town status

to maximum advantage

is quite worrying, you... seem to disagree with the assessment of the majority here. What about CKD's claim and subsequent posts do you not believe?

This is my big deal with this post. I quoted the whole thing so you couldn't complain of being quoted out of context, but the bold sounds like you

know

CKD is telling the truth. I don't think CKD had any town status outside Vi commenting that she might want him in her townbloc.

My position was that if someone is widely considered to be town, they should exploit that (regardless of their actual faction) by posting their opinions.

Pretty sure CKD wasn't widely considered town at this point. Nice side step attempt, but I think you slipped here.

You unvoted CKD for tone because you were more open to believe his claim cause you knew it to be true.

[sottyrulez]

Pretty sure CKD wasn't widely considered town at this point. Nice side step attempt, but I think you slipped here.

As I recall: Equinox, Vi, and VP Baltar. You unvoted him, too, in favor of voting for me. I think it's fair to consider that "wide" given the size of this player list.

It still doesn't make sense why you said what you said in 147 the way you did.

I also can't remember if VP has actually taken a position on CKD.

[sottyrulez]

Something just occurred to me. This is specifically for Zachrulez.

When you accused me of thread-dodging, were you thinking of Newbie 972?

No, that game was over some time ago.

I was noting that you're posting in another ongoing game while not posting here. (I can't give anymore details than that until the game is over really.)

[sottyrulez]

I also have no idea why you're bringing that game up now.

[sottyrulez]

it's hard to care for a game where someone just nearly called my V/LA illegitimate or

decided to call every fucking thing I do as scum-motivated

.

Turns out the bold portion wasn't too far from the truth.

This is not what happened. You were V/LA up until yesterday. You spent

YESTERDAY AND TODAY posting in another game while not posting in this one.

It is well without our rights to point this out, especially as we've been essentially waiting for your input the whole time. You could have made a courtesy post after your V/LA was scheduled to end, but you waited until we called you out to say anything.

[sottyrulez]

Posting to say we are inclined to agree with Vi at this point. I don't think the PR's are going to actually help win this game with how dirty pretty much everyone looks. Mass claim will happen, lets force it on our terms.

Claim now, ruffle the scums feathers and work from there.

Will get to the other posts made later on today.

[sottyrulez]

Equinox apparently has enough time to post multiple times in another game, but apparently not enough time to post here.

I'm interested in your product and or service.

What are your own feelings about SR's pursuit of Equinox?

I find it to be a worthwhile pursuit. I think some of the points are flimsy (npaus town list thing is meh to me), but my reads aren't really that strong and we're on page 10 at this point. If Equinox is really thread dodging like SR is stating, then pressure on her is a good thing.

I think the important question is, where's your avatar!

But seriously SR, why not give the benefit of the doubt that she'll post when she says she will and if she doesn't, then bash her?

I'm having trouble reconsiling quote 3 with quotes 1 and 2.

On re-reading, Saint Kerrigan's 205 also stopped me several times. The thing I got hung up on with his post was where he attributed Vi misinterpreting his Nopoint vote rather than accusing Vi of misrepping it. The wording there specifically bothers me, as misinterpreting isn't scummy, misrepresenting is. (But he pushes it as such in his case.)

[sottyrulez]

And immedietely after we cast our vote, Equinox started posting like a mofo. Looks like our frustration with her not being active in the game pressured her into being more active.

Or in other words, our vote had a pro-town effect... eh?

[sottyrulez]

meh, I found it kind of antagonizing for no real reason, which can get a rise out of scum or town. Just how I see it.

The whole point of the game is to pressure people you suspect for reactions so that you can analyze those reactions and decide whether you're on the right track or not.

This is the whole idea of the game ya know.

^ To that... wow. (280)

I'm honestly shocked by that reaction. (And by some of the others.)

[sottyrulez]

You honestly didn't think that I'd, you know, get mad when someone calls me a liar when I haven't been lying?

Re-evaluate the way you pressure people. It definitely didn't get you anything worthwhile in this game.

Mafia is a game of deception, lies, and hunting for them. If you think it's unreasonable to be called a liar in a mafia game, you might want to re-evaluate your expectations of the game.

[sottyrulez]

Whoops... at least you don't need to ask who posted that.

[sottyrulez]

I just deleted an epic rant direct at Equinox. Needless to say I am quite angry right now, but I don't want to make this worse.

Instead I will just plead with you Equinox to stop this crap. We're not voting you for lurking.
We're not voting for you for being on V/LA, it's called pressure for a reason and you are not handling it well. We are just trying to play the game, for whatever reason you can't see that.

It makes me think something serious is going on for you in real life, but your over the top aggression towards us is really out of place. It needs to stop. I have some real respect for you as a player and I don't want to lose that.

I'd ask you stop posting these attacks on us and ask for you to step away and take at least the weekend off. That's what I am doing. This game is making me want to punch babies in the face right now.

I'm too old for flame wars so can't we just... I dunno.... Go back to playing the game?

I'd like that.

Pretty sure the rest of the game would as well.

~Sotty

[sottyrulez]

I've forgotten my manners. Welcome, lewarcher82.

I think I'll just say what's on my mind now, have you guys argue it out, etc.

Firstly, having read 302 and thought about the possibilities and stuff, I think I'm in favor of mass claiming. The reason why and the scenarios I have in mind, I will keep hidden. Just do it.

Secondly, lynch Equinox today. Why? sottyrulez and VP Baltar's slot apparently pegged scum reads on me; those two are the strongest town reads I have in this game, and while I disagree with their judgment (for obvious reasons), I think that means I'm going to be enough of a distraction to help scum win if I don't get lynched today.

Someone might say, "Well, why have us lynch someone you

know

to be town and not scum?" If we lynch scum today, that's awesome. Maybe even a miracle. However, I get the sense that town is pretty disorganized here. Punt this game to LyLo; you'll start agreeing on stuff more. Further, regardless of whether you lynch town or scum today, I have a feeling that, given what I've done so far, we'll end up arguing over this again on Day 2. I'd rather have you lot bicker over another slot.

I am serious about this. No drama, no theatrics, no gimmicks. The only thing I am not going to do is vote myself because I want to force you into doing that instead. (Sotty7 is probably familiar with me pulling this move. I was serious then, and I'm serious now.)

Discuss.

PS: lewarcher82, post 135, now. Yeah, click on the link; it's only a short passage to read. Now come back and tell me I had scum motivation for putting CKD at L-1. Keep in mind my opinion of the player list.

To be fair, VP was claiming more of a scumread on us than you before he replaced out.

If enough of us agree to MC, then I agree with Vi that CKD can pick the first to claim.

[sottyrulez]

I've read up to the doctor claim. It's too late to stop massclaim now.

[sottyrulez]

Vi would you prefer lewarcher to claim first or us?

[sottyrulez]

lol

Unvote: Vote: lewarcher82

Our claim should be obvious now.

[sottyrulez]

I'm definitely liking SK as the other scum.

[sottyrulez]

I love it.

The explanation of why Vi thinks Equinox is town makes sense and sets a lot of things right in my mind at least. A few niggling doubts, but really I'm about ready to follow Vi into the fire after that post <3. I figured nopopint was the doc after his confirm post, this is why we never really went after him.

Time for Lewarcher to hang.

~Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

It would be really funny if lewarcher flipped roleblocker after all this.

[sottyrulez]

Vote: Shotty

He's guilty and he apparently didn't read the game... lol

[sottyrulez]

By the way, I'm sorry for suspecting you Equinox...

[sottyrulez]

By the way, I'm sorry for suspecting you Equinox...

lol. No worries.

Oh, yeah. That reminds me. I don't think it's needed anymore, but about October 20... that game was in LyLo, and I really really really didn't want to lose that one, so I bit the bullet and posted there during class. It didn't require any reading and stuff, so I was able to post short one-liners there but not anywhere else.

Yeah... I know that now.

[sottyrulez]

... and this time it's REAL baby!