Open 258 --- Night Watch --- Game Over

[Zdenek]

exactly so know we have gotten no where, and we are right where we started, also now there is a wagon on a town person, with no reasoning, and this sucks.
Also anti hero, your deffending of name is noted

Wagons on town seem to be the way most games start.

When it comes to Shotty he jokes about being mafia and he seems to think that nameloc will later say that his "reason" is a real reason for getting on a bandwagon.

Vote Shotty

[Zdenek]

RVS (random voting stage) is what we are doing now. We're pretty much just voting for random reasons just to get the ball rolling. Bandwagons are usually formed to put early pressure on others and see how they react. Once we get some suspicions and discussions going, then we'll back out of RVS.

Another thing to do is RQS (random question stage).

Another RQ: Since I feel this may be an issue this game, what is everybody's stance on policy lynching?

I think a policy lynch is a bad idea because it makes it hard to analyze the votes after someone is lynched, so it diminishes the information that can be gleaned at the end of the day, . . . but sometimes it sure is temping.

[Zdenek]

So far I haven't liked the play of antihero. Twice he makes posts that seem to be attempts to discourage people from accusing others of being scum.

Opportunism is the easiest thing for scum to accuse their wagoners of, because it usually involves vague generalities like this.

Scum do act opportunistically.

How is this a scumtell?
It's easy to label someone's behavior (e.g. "overreaction") without really explicitly calling it scummy. It's just sphagetti flinging and it's quite scummy.

This is his reply to Joystick's post where he comments that Shotty is overreacting to the wagon on him. Joystick makes no comment about whether it is scummy or not, but antihero interprets the post as an accusation and uses this interpretation as a way to attack joystick.

Unvote Shotty
Vote antihero

[Zdenek]

I get the lynch VT thing now, and I have to say I kind of agree. [To be honest, I've never believed the whole "L-1 claim" thing is as important as some players find it: If you find a player scummy enough to vote them you should be willing to see them lynched regardless of their claim; anybody can lie at L-1]. The only problem with lynching claimed VTs is if a player really is VT, then they many be forced to claim a PR, which surely screws alot of things up.

Day one there's not a lot to go on so making a mistake is easy, it's a good idea for people to claim before lynching them. Also VT's probably shouldn't lie to save themselves.

@Zdenek -
I disagree with your post about Anithero discouraging others from accusing (post #81). I think its important for a town player to be vocal if they think somebody is making unfair, or tenuous, accusations; it helps us avoid mislynches.

Are you trying to argue that scum don't act opportunistically or that Joystick said that someone overreacting to a wagon on themselves is scummy?

[Zdenek]

Do you think your read of a player should take into account their experience?

Yes, but as Jason pointed out, you need to be careful.

As far as the "lie" by Andrew is concerned. I'm inclined to chalk his talk of replying continuously to someone who hasn't replied up to being a village idiot. That said, I certainly don't have a positive read on him at the moment.

[Zdenek]

No, I interpret the post as active lurking and spaghetti flinging (I even said so right in the quote).

Yes you did. I misread the post.

[Zdenek]

Andrew, you never really answered my original question about your attack on HOMJ. Why did you make such a half-hearted attack on what would have been a monumental scumslip?

Do you think it was a scumslip?

[Zdenek]

I don't like what I've seen from Joystick so far. I agree with Anti-hero, that the comment about Shotty overreacting is a little scummy. He hasn't done much scum hunting (except for being concerned about Shotty putting Andrew at L-2), and he has put a lot effort into defending Andrew, who, while I have to agree is an easy day one lynch, has given us no reason to think that he is town.

[Zdenek]

I don't like what I've seen from Joystick so far. I agree with Anti-hero, that the comment about Shotty overreacting is a little scummy. He hasn't done much scum hunting (except for being concerned about Shotty putting Andrew at L-2), and he has put a lot effort into defending Andrew, who, while I have to agree is an easy day one lynch, has given us no reason to think that he is town.

You don't think what shotty did, putting someone at L-2 for no reason is scummy?

It could be scummy, but on day one it's not a big deal. Odds are against scum sweeping in and lynching him. To say that it was for no reason is a bit of an exaggeration. If there was no reason for the votes on Andrew everyone would have unvoted by now.

You think me calling him out about it and waiting for a response proper scum hunting?

I mentioned that you did that in my post. I don't see why you're asking me about it now.

Or is me making a comment about people not posting (which is what we use to scum hunt) not justified? Even if right after that somebody makes their 8th post of the game?

Sorry I'll scum hunt better yoda

You're insulting me because I haven't liked your posts? What I am supposed to do, think of you as the epitome of townieness because you're defending Andrew?

The problem is that as I read through your posts I see a lot of talk about theory. This is a pretty common scum maneuver because it allows a player to be active, but avoid discussion that is pertinent to the game.

[Zdenek]

Unvote Antihero

I don't think his play recently has been scummy.

I am undecided about Joystick. I do not like that he switched his vote over to Andrew after defending him, but I also don't like Shotty's gambit that caused this action. Joystick certainly is not reacting well to the pressure that he's been under, and I don't think that he should have claimed so soon. He should have waited for someone to threaten to hammer.

At this time, I am not inclined to hammer Joystick.

I'd like to add to the case on Nameloc. I think he is reaching for reasons to vote. When he voted for antihero, he questioned him about questioning Jason for jumping Shotty's wagon, and when he voted for Joystick, he did so because he interprets Joystick's statement: "... use the mislynch now" as a scumslip. Now, taken literally, and out of context, it might be a scumslip. But in context, it doesn't seem that bad to me, especially considering how Joystick is acting.

Vote Nameloc

CKD: I think the scumslip that was being spoken about at that point in your read through was when someone used the word minority, and Andrew read it as "uninformed minority," but took it as "uninformed majority" i.e. town, but I could be wrong. Any way, if that is what you are asking about, I'm pretty sure it's not a scum slip.

[Zdenek]

sry for triple post Zden and jason, why did neither of you ask who he targetted last night?

I'd started writing my post earlier and saw both your post and Joystick's post in separate previews. By the I finally posted it, I was in a hurry and not thinking carefully.

Antihero, you go from this:

However, I still think you're correct that andrew is fakeclaiming.

to this

What exactly has andrew done? Claimed doc as VT once? I know a few people who have done that.

Is his track record w/ fakeclaiming really that bad? Depending on smashbro's answer to the question, there's no reason to not believe andrew AFAIK.

from one post to the next?

hoponmyjoystick is NOT a watcher

he is 'vanilla'

I am willing to believe this even though Andrew's meta says that he fakeclaims. When he does it, isn't it to take a night kill when he is a VT to save a PR, rather than trying to get a townie lynched?

[Zdenek]

Aren't we all "reaching for reasons" though? No one knows for sure who's scum so we all have to do scumhunting.

I just don't like what you came up with in those instances.

[Zdenek]

I am willing to believe this even though Andrew's meta says that he fakeclaims. When he does it, isn't it to take a night kill when he is a VT to save a PR, rather than trying to get a townie lynched?

But you run the risk of the real "PR" to counterclaim which might make people assume Andrew is scum. If he gets lynched for it, then the real "PR" will get targeted for nightkill and you lose TWO townies AND a valuable PR.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean. I am not saying that Andrew is making a good play if he is fake claiming.

To people more experienced with Andrew's meta: when he fake claims is it when he is at L-1 or does he do it at any time? Would he be willing to risk getting a townie killed just to fake claim?

[Zdenek]

I'm willing to hammer.

I'd like to point out the above rolefishing conversation between Joystick and CKD and Joystick's reaction to CKD's vote on him:

Wow, isn't that interesting you show up and put me at L-1

I still do not feel this wagon on me is a good one, the reasons are iffy at best.

Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but it almost comes across as "Isn't it interesting that my scumbuddy is voting for me. Can't you guys tell I am being bussed."

[Zdenek]

Zden and anti, I would like an answer to this before the hammer.

when/if Hop flips town...what is your stance on my vote...

If Hop flips town, then it means that my interpretation of his post that makes it seem like you are bussing is wrong. Aside from that, I am fine with your vote. On the other hand, Joystick flips scum, then I will definitely to consider what Jason said about Joystick trying to make it seem like bussing.

[Zdenek]

I do not like Shotty's erratic play, and almost constant rolefishing. However, most of it was pointless questioning of Joystick.

I still don't like CKD's play from yesterday, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was busing Joystick. I also don't think his his case on Antihero holds much water: I don't think doubting Andrew a bit was the worst thing someone could have done, and Antihero hardly pushed CKD's lynch over Joystick's. However, I want to do a more careful read through with the new information in mind before passing judgement.

I am still thinking about all of the schemes that have been presented. I don't have a well formed opinion on them yet, but I guess at the moment I am opposed to them. I've mostly just looked at how they might obviously fail, and not much on what we could do to avoid it. Nameloc's comment makes the most sense: if scum claim watcher, we have a method to determine it they are telling the truth, and we should lynch scummy players who claim vanilla.

[Zdenek]

Jason's catch-up post above was as confusing as Andrew's bread crumbing. I don't like that he doesn't think at all about Andrew's scheme, and votes for Antihero for because of what I am pretty sure is a misunderstanding: there is a scum autolose scenario, but it doesn't have a very high chance of happening. I also don't really appreciate the stream of consciousness style, which lets him get away saying things that we now know are false, which seems scummy to me.

Vote Jason

Still waiting for Dry-fit's promised suspects.

[Zdenek]

Andrew, are you still wondering why I am voting Jason? Basically, I didn't like how he wrote his catch up post or his vote for Antihero.

Dry-fit, I haven't mentioned Bazz because his posts have basically bored me. This makes me mildly suspicious of him, but it is purely a gut read.

[Zdenek]

I will be

V/LA until Sunday Oct. 31

Since I don't want to be party to a quick lynch while I am away.

Unvote

[Zdenek]

Okay, so I gather that we are not killing Shotty because he's a claimed watcher, not because he is confirmed. I think we should do something to try to verify his claim. Whether it's an investigation or nameloc hiding behind him, it doesn't matter to me, but I don't think we should accept it as truth. That said, it's not as though we have to verify it immediately, and we should probably set up a random scenario that has as one outcome the claim being verified. Perhaps a percent change that he is investigated or a percent chance that nameloc hides behind him.

Dry-fit is still hardly posting, I know I've been away too recently, so perhaps it's a bit of the case of the pot calling the kettle black. In retrospect, I also didn't like his post #487 much either. He makes a comment about Bazz not voting and asks me about commenting on Bazz (but otherwise that he is not suspicious of me in the least, while I appreciate it, it could easily be scummy buddying up to town). He defends CKD against Antihero by saying that Antihero's tunneling is bizarre (here we might have another example of scummy spaghetti flinging).

The main thing that I would like to take away from this, is the seeming connection between Dry-fit and Bazz. They have both made soft attacks against one another, and Bazz was very quick to forgive Dry-fit:

BAZZ: The thing that caught my eye the most about him is that he didn't cast any votes at all until after andrew's claim, and still hasn't cast one today.

I agree that Dryfit's play D1 reads scum. He appears to bus Joystick slightly when it appears that Joystick is definitely going to be our lynch, but never really commits to and accusation, or a vote. I'm gonna do a re-read of everyone though, and give Dryfit a chance to post. Since he was so inactive (only posted 5 times) I get the feeling he might be replaced; if not, he needs to stop lurking.

today he HAS FoSed me for supposedly not committing to an accusation or vote on Hop. However I was doing the exact thing BAZZ was doing: Giving 2k3 time to post before the lynch.

This is a fair point; you could have indeed been waiting for 2k3. However, I also have to consider the possibility that, as scum, you weren't prepared to vote your partner. Also, this doesn't account for your only posting five times the entire day, and it seemed like your posting became less frequent during the phase where joystick was being confirmed as scum.
In your defence, the reasons i've found you scummy are due mainly to your lurking, or not contributing, and your last post does go against this.

I think Andrew checking himself is ridiculous.

I don't understand what Jason is trying to accomplish with posts like this, but it could be because he has little time:

I would agree Andrew only is concerned by his own agenda.. I believe he feels safe because he is uncountered in being Rolecop which near enough confirms him as town so he now does not have to worry about being lynched or answer to anybody for his actions or lack off actions

________________________________________
I am prepared to believe Antihero's claim that he is town, and I would prefer to lynch someone who I think is scum instead. However, I can understand the argument of not wanting to help the scum watcher snipe, so I could accept his lynching. At the moment, I think Dry-fit is more likely to flip scum, and the last thing that the town needs going forward in the game is a scummy lurker. Also, I am willing to give Jason the benefit of the doubt until his V/LA ends.

Vote Dry-fit

[Zdenek]

just a general question

why shouldn't we lynch Zdenek?

The question we need to answer now is whether we believe Antihero's claim, and if we believe it, do we lynch him anyway?

[Zdenek]

To answer Bazz's question: my vote on Dry-Fit is there because I wanted to present an alternative to lynching Antihero. Even in this game, where we don't want to out power roles, it is probably still best for us to lynch people we think are scum. I don't want this to be taken as a defence of Antihero, I don't what he is, but I'm less convinced than others about his scumminess, so I am not inclined to hammer at the moment. As to whether I want a wagon to form on Dry-Fit, I want that about as much as I want someone to hammer Antihero. If Dry-Fit is lynched, we lynch the person I think is scummiest, and if Antihero is lynched we don't help scum out power roles.

[Zdenek]

If all went well, the other watcher watched Shotty and we'll be lynching scum today.

[Zdenek]

Vote CKD

[Zdenek]

Unvote

I want to hear from others and especially Dry-Fit before the lynch.

[Zdenek]

what????

You just confessed to lying for the entire game and you wonder why I'd like to hear from others before the lynch?

I still intend to vote CKD, I just don't want to do it too quickly.

[Zdenek]

of course Df doesnt counter me, cos im the real fcking watcher, why the hell would he as cop cc me.
that would be anti-town
MORE VOTES ON CKD

The hammer has already fallen: You, DF, Jason and Empking are voting CKD.

[Zdenek]

If all went well, dry-fit watched Andrew last night.

I could see BAZZ being scum. Early in the game he was talking about theory rather than scum hunting, and now the soft attack on Jason. However, there was his interaction with CKD, where he missed seeing the possibility that CKD was bussing Joystick While it is null because of WIFOM, this might mean that he is an innocent townie who wasn't thinking at the time because scum probably couldn't help but see that CKD was bussing.