Open 250 - Pie E7 Mark II

[VP Baltar]

Actually, he did. I wanted to know why he didn't comment on sottyrulez-VP Baltar, and he said he didn't comment because he felt it was noise. (Now that I think about it, that's... a pretty odd thing to say. I'm gonna go do this other thing first and go back to that post.) I then wanted to know why he buddied up to Vi, and he explained that it was a gambit. I thought that + tone was satisfactory enough.

I meant to your entire post not just those two points, but I get that those were the main part of your argument so ok.

I didn't expect VP Baltar to disagree with sottyrulez given that they were previously on the same ridiculous stance.

Well, I may be ready to blow your mind then. I want to see what Equinox digs up from her newbie game first.

[sottyrulez]

We're not lynching/voting CKD because the wagon died. Equinox played a large role in that, you know this. We had absolutely no intention of unvoting CKD before that. Equinox played a significant role in killing the bandwagon and she's scummy for it.

Well, in fairness, I think your unvote was much more crucial to the demise of the wagon. He was still at L-2, yeah? If you felt so passionately about him needing to be lynched, I would think you would have argued for it and explained why it was necessary.

We are not voting for anyone other that CKD or Equinox. Yes it will be disastrous if both CKD and Equinox turn out to be town, but right now we think Equinox has a higher chance of being scum than CKD.

And then this basically sounds in contradiction of always lynch VT in E7. You're either scumhunting or playing strategy. I'm happy to have support for my Equinox wagon, but I don't like your cognitive dissonance at all. You really need to pick a side of your own argument.

(Zach posting.)

This is EXACTLY WHY I hate premature vanilla claims. There IS no actual reason why you should leave the wagon, but people do. (As Vi pointed out in her attack of us because of tone which is a horrible reason to leave it.) Leaving the wagon because you think someone is scum is a better cause, but again, the strategy and logistics of it ANGER me, because that claimed vanilla is very likely ALWAYS going to be there if you don't lynch them.

There is precedent for my conflicted opinion here.

I linked from the point I respond to The Butterfly's claim, and despite my strong feeling that claimed vanillas should be lynched, I did end up voting elsewhere before eventually going back to that wagon. (Which at the very least demonstrates that despite my feeling on the matter, I don't follow it as an absolute.)

Also, there's nothing stopping us from going back to CKD, the only real reasons not to lynch him today is having a strong scum read on someone else, (Equinox, and even Vi.) and perhaps precedent for him to pull moves like this as town in the past.

[sottyrulez]

Also I would submit that Equinox unvoting over tone, and not having a better place for her vote is a significantly larger offense than us unvoting for having a bigger scumread. (Her)

[Vi]

I like how I'm apparently scum and a viable lynch candidate solely through connection to someone who hasn't flipped.

Leaving the wagon because you think someone is scum is a better cause, but again, the strategy and logistics of it ANGER me, because that claimed vanilla is very likely ALWAYS going to be there if you don't lynch them.

And if that claimed Vanilla is Town, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

How about it? Is ckd more likely Town? (objectively, not "more likely Town THAN someone else")

[sottyrulez]

I like how I'm apparently scum and a viable lynch candidate solely through connection to someone who hasn't flipped.

There's a difference between finding your play scummy and wanting to lynch you today.

Leaving the wagon because you think someone is scum is a better cause, but again, the strategy and logistics of it ANGER me, because that claimed vanilla is very likely ALWAYS going to be there if you don't lynch them.

And if that claimed Vanilla is Town, that's not necessarily a bad thing.

How about it? Is ckd more likely Town? (objectively, not "more likely Town THAN someone else")

A scum lynch is better. Your question re: CKD's likelihood of being town has already been addressed. Interpret our stated opinions how you like.

[Vi]

I like how I'm apparently scum and a viable lynch candidate solely through connection to someone who hasn't flipped.

There's a difference between finding your play scummy and wanting to lynch you today.

Also, there's nothing stopping us from going back to CKD, the only real reasons not to lynch him today is having a strong scum read on someone else, (Equinox, and even Vi.)

ok

[VP Baltar]

@sottyrulez - do you guys feel like the scum team is Equinox/Vi then?

@Vi - you seem rather on edge this game and I'm trying to determine why that is. Is the state of the game that frustrating to you or are there external factors (RL etc.) that are aggravating you?

[sottyrulez]

Yes. Ever since Vi started defending Equinox for no real reason we have been thinking they are a team together and that Vi is trying to protect her roleblocker. It doesn't feel viable that ViTown would go so far out of her way like this for Equinox(unknown). It doesn't fit.

[Vi]

@Vi - you seem rather on edge this game and I'm trying to determine why that is. Is the state of the game that frustrating to you or are there external factors (RL etc.) that are aggravating you?

Yesterday it was external factors AND the state of the game.
Right now it's actually neither because I think I can turn this scenario into something positive.

It doesn't feel viable that ViTown would go so far out of her way like this for Equinox(unknown).

What makes you think Equinox is (unknown) IMO?
In addition, I have some light reading material that details that yes, I

would

do that kind of thing. (tealdeer I went against the popular lynch, got put on a ton of scumlists for it, and behold! I got scumone else lynched and the "popular lynch" turned out to be Town!)

I see St.K on this site. o.o

[Vi]

I'm assuming everyone is cooler than me and playing Marathon games. That's three people I've seen around the site now.

[Equinox]

VP Baltar: I've given up looking for who told me that advice about L-1 claiming... way too many games and way too vague of a memory. I'm starting to think I read it in MD... Anyway, I did state such an opinion before in a newbie game in July.

Vi: VP Baltar is town. I think you're town, but I have to meta you (as well as SaintKerrigan and NPAU; haven't gotten around to that yet). sottyrulez... is more of a mixed bag, now that I've run through an old game I played with Sotty7 (Newbie 960). I'm going to go reread their case on me with this memory in mind once this headache abates and make a decision then; if I were to say something now, though, I don't like how they've called an Equinox-Vi scum team. Partly because I know it's wrong. The other part is... I disagree with the logic of how they got there.

[curiouskarmadog]

unvote..

I am two pages (large posts?) behind...will get to this tomorrow (hopefully)

[nopointinactingup]

Yo. I'm back!
- The scums are likely Equinox/CKD.
- Vi has a completely different vibe from the way he was last game ( dunno if it's the ava ). His over committed defense for Equinox also looks town.
- At first I suspected VP + SR of playing the distancing card at the start because their points against each other were so trivial until post #54, 55, 56 dispelled my suspicion to a large extent. However, I'm still noting this possibility as they have recently gotten inexplicably friendly towards each other.
- No read on St.Kerrigan.

Now why is the scumteam Equinox + CKD you may ask:

CKD

: His style has changed drastically from the last game. His former-game gambit suggested that he was eager to scum hunt at game beginning ( which is opposite from me actually =P ), while in this game he hardly makes an attempt to scum-hunt, resorting instead to mostly jokes and masochist-like comments while masking himself with votes on the inactives .

Equinox:

- #79 was where I begin to suspect Equinox. She arrived when the CKD wagon was rolling and had a lot of evidence to L-1 Vote CKD. Now her vote was okay and all, but immediately after her vote was a clumsy attempt to disprove her own case by questioning CKD's Best Mafia Performance relative to his performance this game. I see no clear-cut reason why she would think of let alone bring out something to mar her own case.
- Her next posts:

No, I am not unvoting until you give me what I want. You haven't done that yet.

#88: CKD gave her something she wanted that doesn't make sense to me
#90: Equinox unvotes CKD
--> Looks really theatretical to me.
-

I didn't back down because of the claim; I backed down because of curiouskarmadog's tone. 83 and then 88 read like town frustration rather than faked anger.

Neither 83 or 88 reveal signs of anger when I read it. I'm calling fluffs on this explanation.

-

nopointinactingup > SaintKerrigan > Vi > curiouskarmadog > VP Baltar > sottyrulez > Equinox

Unfortunately, that spectrum is more town-skewed than I'd like, so that's more NULL -> TOWN than the usual SCUM -> TOWN. <_<

Gonna go read a few games and see if I can pin down my reads on the first three on the list.

This looks especially scummy coming from Equinox:
+ First, Equinox came in and L-1 CKD forcing a claim on CKD. Then, as if her unvoting wasn't scummy enough, she threw CKD at the middle of her spectrum at the town side with no explanation for why Vi looks worse or why CKD suddenly earned so much town cred.
+ Second, Equinox in my book likes playing town much more than she would be playing scum. Thus, her hesitance for a scum read makes me believe that she is in fact speaking from her own knowledge and perspective.

Vote:Equinox.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote: Sottyrulez

I can now buy that Equinox may not have expected a claim to happen. I don't really buy the 'always lynch the VT, but not really in this case cause we're going to scumhunt this time' logic, however. If you're going to use the always lynch the VT plan as justification for your vote, then it seems to me that you'd actually have to believe it. Too much cognitive dissonance for my taste.

[Vi]

Still waiting on St.K and ckd.

Unofficial Vote Count

Equinox 2 - sottyrulez, nopointactingup
sottyrulez 2 - Vi, VP Baltar

Not voting: SaintKerrigan, Equinox, curiouskarmadog

Deadline is a long way from now.

[SaintKerrigan]

Have flavor to write for my mafia game, but I should be able to catch up and respond to stuff after noon CST.

[sottyrulez]

(Sotty posting)

Okay let me break it down for you. Vi has done a lot to distract from how this all actually went down. She has tried to make this into a mafia discussion situation over townie claims rather than actual scum hunting. I'm upset that VP has fallen for this too.

Order of events

• CKD acts scummy and gets run up to lynch -1 and claims early.

At this point we were happy with this wagon if pissed at the claim. Equinox's vote was quick but we thought CKD was probable scum. Plus, if CKD was a townie his early claim hurt us, he needed to hang.

When the claim came, Zach said to me “suspect the first person to unvote” and I agreed. Unvoting a VT claim at this kind of a game is horrible play. I don't care what Vi has to say. It's bad.

• Equinox unvotes CKD quickly based on “tone”

We have established this is an “elite” player list several times. None of us are stupid even if we want to throw that name around now and then. The fact is Equinox put CKD at lynch -1. Site meta dictates, that if you don't want a claim or a lynch DON'T PUT SOMEONE AT LYNCH -1. I know this, Vi knows this, Equinox knows this.

Yet she unvotes for tone. It was too easy, she clearly wasn't committed to her vote. Why?

Equinox isn't silly. She was rolefishing. Power role? Nope? Okay... I'll back off. That's what it looks like.

Right now Zach is hot. He spends several posts ranting in the QT about CKD's claim and how freaking scummy Equinox is. I agree on all fronts. The big issue was, do we push though on the scummiest looking player (Equinox) or do we lynch CKD who claimed townie?

Now, I'm not the setup expert (geek) here like some of you are but Zach starting quoting math at me, something like if CKD's claim is true and he isn't lynched the power roles only have a 33% chance of doing some good. I'll let him come in her and set the math right once he wakes up. But basically it is bad.

The only thing I regret right now is not posting and demanding that Equinox revotes CKD ASAP with an explanation of why. If we had done that things might be a little more clear. I'll just say emotions got the better of us.

• We decide to wait for Vi to comment on what went down

This was Zach's idea. We were at odds surrounding Vi. Zach wasn't really liking her suggestion of the voting bloc and I thought she was looking townie enough. My argument was we can go along with her for now and if she starts being scummy, change our minds.

Anyway, we wait. Still stewing over the claim and unvote ordeal. VP had already said much of what we wanted to say. In fact he said it such away we both at near the same time proclaimed him town. His confusion, weariness and general posting since all this has happened has all but convinced me of that. We basically disagree with everything Vi posts in 97. Her attempt to dirty VP is ridiculous and she proclaims Equinox town

for no reason

Vi knows the set up. She knows how this works and yet no bad words for Equinox at all in her first reaction post.

• We finally post

After a lot of thinking we decide to join VP on Equinox. It wasn't an easy choice but here are the main bullet point reasons

-Equinox's rolefishing
-CKD's propensity to do this kinda thing as town
-Our belief that VP is town.

After post 97 we were both on the Vi is scum theory. VP also questions her about what she said and Vi claims not to have read.

I didn't read anything about Equinox L-1ing ckd and demanding a claim (in fact Equinox seemed dismally surprised at the claim). I skimmed like that whole page and posted in five minutes, and don't have the time NOW to reread (maybe; I have to see if I need to leave for school now or not). So etc.

^Weak sauce. This allows her to distance herself slightly and retool after we proclaimed her scummy and VP was looking wearily in her direction.

Her follow up post in 104 is basically, omg everyone looks townie so I will vote a lurker! Please.

In our post 98 we laid out the whole not unvoting a VT and Vi skims over than for now, deciding to generally address it rather than all out attack us. It feels like she is trying to pacify us by not “exploding” on us.

This is important because of what happens next.

• We respond still calling Vi and Equinox scummy

This doesn't make Vi happy. She goes from not agreeing with us but we are still townie, to voting us. She asks us why we unvoted CKD despite us being VERY CLEAR in post 98 as to why. This was all information that was already out there and Vi chose to call us town anyway.

It wasn't until we made it abundantly clear that we were gunning for her as well did she decide to flip the script and pull the switch on us to make us look bad. If this was a geniune thought process, why not question it

right away?

Why wait? Why sit on it?

It's not townie motivation.

• Vi goes on all out attack

This wouldn't be so bad if she hadn't already called us town for stating these opinions. Nothing changed form us from when we reacted to CKD's claim and Equinox's unvote, yet Vi is coming for us.

Why the change of heart? Probably because we won't back down.

• Vi continues to say we should still be voting CKD as a way to discredit us

For some reason Vi is desperate for us to be voting CKD. Never mind the fact we have a bigger read on other people. She doesn't even attempt to take our scum hunting under consideration. The case on Equinox

isn't

this one point. Vi is trying to say it is.

In our eyes Equinox deflated the CKD wagon.
We explained why this was scummy and why we switched.
Vi continues to repeat this argument until it takes hold.

Either you believe our original post 98 or you don't. It's that simple. Vi seemed to believe it.

Vi decides to ignore our actual case on Equinox and instead does nothing but hammers on the CKD point. The easiest part of the argument to beat.

Okay this is turning out into a wall... I have more to say, conclusion coming up.

[sottyrulez]

We feel the actual case on Equinox has been drowned out by Vi repeatedly talking about our belief surrounding VTs. It is my belief that scum are much more likely to unvote at townie when they are at lynch-1 because they know the claim to be true.

This is what Equinox did.

This is the main reason we find her scummy.

Putting someone at lynch-1 is a game of chicken. Equinox blinked first and in such away we can't ignore. Could we had done more to beef CKD's wagon back up again, yeah, probably. But we decided to push on another player who we thought is more likely to be scum.

I contend that unvoting at lynch-1 and unvoting at lynch-2 are two completely different things.

Equinox's original vote on CKD was pretty weak. She padded the case a little and spent time agreeing with what other people said. Also lets not forget what happened in the first game. The idea of a quick hammer couldn't be dismissed. Yet Equinox

voted anyway

I don't believe anyone who thinks that Equinox didn't know what was going to happen next. Pretty sure she didn't expect the claim to come so quick, but she knew it was the next step. I submit Newbie 960. Here Memnon had been run up to lynch -1 and he was asking about not claiming. It makes her thoughts very clear me thinks.

So the rubbish that Equinox didn't expect a claim needs to stop.

What do we have on Equinox so far?

-Weakish lynch-1 vote
-Quick unvote based off tone. Lets look at that.

CKD's claim

In Equinox's

very next post

she is already talking about unvoting.

No, I am not unvoting until you give me what I want. You haven't done that yet.

well, I sort of understand where you are coming from on thinking I am buddying...though i am not, but whatever, the proof is in the pudding...you also seem to scan over my this post toward Vi.

hmmm.....but no comment on my different play style?

I dont recall being so jokey last time around.

scum hunting bud...i give him a "town" cred, to see what he does with it....and wondered why he didnt comment on my change in style...if i felt he was completely town, do you really think I would follow up with this?....but I guess that didnt really fit into your "he is scum buddying" theory..so you left it out when pushing the thoery?

everything else is utter crap...spreading my vote around = scummy? voting someone who hasnt posted in game in the first 3 pages of a new game = scummy?...bullshit....

do you really believe those things are scummy?

Yeah, I scanned over it because I didn't see the relevancy to post 41. Now that you've pointed it out, though, it makes sense.

UNVOTE: L-2

....but I guess that didnt really fit into your "he is scum buddying" theory..so you left it out when pushing the thoery?

Are you suggesting that I'm simply pushing a case and not trying to discern alignment? Don't pull the VP Baltar move again; one headache's enough.

spreading my vote around = scummy? voting someone who hasnt posted in game in the first 3 pages of a new game = scummy?...bullshit....

You're missing the point. I won't argue that "voting someone who hasn't posted in-game" by itself is not scummy, but doing it while ignoring a major part of the game is odd.

There is a disconnect here. What was in post 88 that gave Equinox what she wanted? I don't see anything at all. Hell, she is still questioning him in her unvote post, I don't get it at all. It looks bad, there is no reasoning that I can see. Plus she didn't explain why, why no transparency?

I also find it weird that ckd has now shifted well up the list over his tone, but I guess that's a personal thing.

It is. I like reading tones. Seems to work.

...It doesn't add up to me. It isn't natural and I sure as hell don't feel townie motivation from this action.

Since then Equionx hasn't really done any scum hunting. Asking pointless questions like who was posting in our hydra, for no reason. She hasn't voted again. She's doing a lot of nothing hoping this fight between ourselves and Vi distracts.

And Vi wants to defend this? Why? It makes us believe Vi knows more about Equinox than the rest of us.

By all means, disagree with the unvoting a VT claim, but I fail to see how our belief surrounding that makes us scum. Vi, maybe you should break that down for us.

[Vi]

When the claim came, Zach said to me “suspect the first person to unvote” and I agreed. Unvoting a VT claim at this kind of a game is horrible play.

ITT people don't think like you.

• Equinox unvotes CKD quickly based on “tone”

We have established this is an “elite” player list several times. None of us are stupid even if we want to throw that name around now and then. The fact is Equinox put CKD at lynch -1.

Site meta dictates, that if you don't want a claim or a lynch DON'T PUT SOMEONE AT LYNCH -1.

I know this, Vi knows this, Equinox knows this.

Yet we're an "elite" player list. One would think we're not sheep, considering that site meta doesn't seem to have any idea WHY people are supposed to claim at L-1. (Hint: It's not supposed to be automatic)

It's worth saying that the last person who used the "oops vanilla claim, must lynch" argument on me was a scum IC, link providable upon request.

Now, I'm not the setup expert (geek) here like some of you are but Zach starting quoting math at me, something like if CKD's claim is true and he isn't lynched the power roles only have a 33% chance of doing some good. I'll let him come in her and set the math right once he wakes up. But basically it is bad.

I've already disagreed with Zach's math before but I agree that it's bad. But more on that later.

This was Zach's idea. We were at odds surrounding Vi. Zach wasn't really liking her suggestion of the voting bloc and I thought she was looking townie enough. My argument was we can go along with her for now and if she starts being scummy, change our minds.

Anyway, we wait. Still stewing over the claim and unvote ordeal. VP had already said much of what we wanted to say. In fact he said it such away we both at near the same time proclaimed him town. His confusion, weariness and general posting since all this has happened has all but convinced me of that. We basically disagree with everything Vi posts in 97. Her attempt to dirty VP is ridiculous and she proclaims Equinox town

for no reason

Vi knows the set up. She knows how this works and yet no bad words for Equinox at all in her first reaction post.

That first reaction post was a five-minute skim. The more complete second one had bad words for Equinox.

I have reasons for calling Equinox Town, and I've elaborated on them at considerable length.
Another sign that we're not together is that Equinox seems just as bewildered at my defense of her as everyone else.

I didn't read anything about Equinox L-1ing ckd and demanding a claim (in fact Equinox seemed dismally surprised at the claim). I skimmed like that whole page and posted in five minutes, and don't have the time NOW to reread (maybe; I have to see if I need to leave for school now or not). So etc.

^Weak sauce. This allows her to distance herself slightly and retool after we proclaimed her scummy and VP was looking wearily in her direction.

It's factually correct. Without any time to read into motivations it's what I had to work with.

Her follow up post in 104 is basically, omg everyone looks townie so I will vote a lurker! Please.

Laying out unnecessary omgs to strawman people is MY turf. Back off.

npau was and to a fair degree IS someone I didn't have a nice read on.

In our post 98 we laid out the whole not unvoting a VT and Vi skims over than for now, deciding to generally address it rather than all out attack us. It feels like she is trying to pacify us by not “exploding” on us.

This is important because of what happens next.

• We respond still calling Vi and Equinox scummy

This doesn't make Vi happy. She goes from not agreeing with us but we are still townie, to voting us. She asks us why we unvoted CKD despite us being VERY CLEAR in post 98 as to why. This was all information that was already out there and Vi chose to call us town anyway.

It wasn't until we made it abundantly clear that we were gunning for her as well did she decide to flip the script and pull the switch on us to make us look bad. If this was a geniune thought process, why not question it

right away?

Why wait? Why sit on it?

It's not townie motivation.

• Vi goes on all out attack

This wouldn't be so bad if she hadn't already called us town for stating these opinions. Nothing changed form us from when we reacted to CKD's claim and Equinox's unvote, yet Vi is coming for us.

Why the change of heart? Probably because we won't back down.

(...)

Either you believe our original post 98 or you don't. It's that simple. Vi seemed to believe it.

I didn't agree with what you actually said to begin with. My quote below.

sottyrulez voting Equinox makes me RAGE but everything else after it looks so different from how they posted in the previous game that it's hard for me to call it scummy.

(...)

I'm not voting sottyrulez, admittedly based largely on "tone".

And that's fine, Townies can be wrong to varying degrees of violence. Then you pushed a case of absolute crap on me almost entirely as an extension of being scum with Equinox.

Oh it's PERSONAL now.

• Vi continues to say we should still be voting CKD as a way to discredit us

For some reason Vi is desperate for us to be voting CKD. Never mind the fact we have a bigger read on other people. She doesn't even attempt to take our scum hunting under consideration. The case on Equinox

isn't

this one point. Vi is trying to say it is.

In our eyes Equinox deflated the CKD wagon.
We explained why this was scummy and why we switched.
Vi continues to repeat this argument until it takes hold.

It's hard for me to take your "scum hunting under consideration" when your points beyond the basic theory of lynching the first Vanilla claim you see are all bogus.
It's also hard for me to buy that Equinox "deflated" the wagon like she was the only person on it.
Last, I'm not desperate for you to vote ckd so much as I'm critical of the reasons you're not doing so.

Vi decides to ignore our actual case on Equinox and instead does nothing but hammers on the CKD point. The easiest part of the argument to beat.

I'm pretty sure I've talked about how I believe Equinox is Town. You don't buy it and I doubt you're listening. Impasse.

tealdeer Sotty7 is still pushing some kind of crap; if you skimmed her last post you can skim this one too

---

We still need more St.K and ckd in here.

[Vi]

I didn't read anything about Equinox L-1ing ckd and demanding a claim (in fact Equinox seemed dismally surprised at the claim). I skimmed like that whole page and posted in five minutes, and don't have the time NOW to reread (maybe; I have to see if I need to leave for school now or not). So etc.

^Weak sauce. This allows her to distance herself slightly and retool after we proclaimed her scummy and VP was looking wearily in her direction.

Actually I'm not really sure how this logic is supposed to work in the first place. I don't see any potential for distancing in this quote (unless I was factually incorrect, which I wasn't) and I certainly didn't take any opportunity to jump ship.

[sottyrulez]

Any time someone says "I only skimmed" they are attempting to distance from what they posted. In a "I only skimmed and may have missed important things" kinda way.

Vi I have agreed that we disagree on the VT thing, I don't know how many times we can repeat that. You are not scummy for disagreeing, nobody is perfect, you are scummy for your reaction and how it changed as listed above.

Any time you want to break down, point by point why us not voting CKD is a scum tell in light of all that has happened in this thread I'm willing to listen. You haven't done this.

Of course if Equionx does flip town we will take a long hard look at our thoughts on you. But anytime you want to stop pushing theory and get your hands dirty with this actual game I'd welcome it.

We haven't voted for you because our read on Equinox is stronger. You are just louder. Hence our wonderings of RB'er protection, keeping in mind what you said to us in our last QT.

People link others all the time, if you are town, your failure to be able to see things from our side of the fence is your downfall.

[sottyrulez]

It almost feels like you are trying to goad us into voting you in the way you ignore key parts of the Equinox case and keep shouting about the VT thing without any real explanation.

[Equinox]

MY WALL IS BIGGER THAN YOURS.

First wall: nopointinactingup

After all that build-up, post 137 is a pretty big disappointment.

His style has changed drastically from the last game. His former-game gambit suggested that he was eager to scum hunt at game beginning ( which is opposite from me actually =P ), while in this game he hardly makes an attempt to scum-hunt, resorting instead to mostly jokes and masochist-like comments while masking himself with votes on the inactives

tl;dr "CKD isn't playing like his meta, so he's probably scum."

First point of contention: "...which is opposite from me actually." Are you saying that you were unwilling to participate in the game initially? I understand that you had to go on V/LA for the greater part of the game day, so I apologize if I take your statement the wrong way. However, this piques my interest. Why?

Second point of contention: While I agree that CKD not using his town status to maximum advantage is quite worrying, you... seem to disagree with the assessment of the majority here. What about CKD's claim and subsequent posts do you not believe?

I see no clear-cut reason why she would think of let alone bring out something to mar her own case.

I like to think that I am reasonable and will consider all facets of the evidence presented to me. If I feel something potentially throws a wrench in my read of a player, I will say as much unless I'm bluffing my way for a reaction.

#88: CKD gave her something she wanted that doesn't make sense to me

This is in bolded green because I'm freaking awesome.

HOW DOES THIS NOT MAKE SENSE?! Isn't this the whole damn point of an interrogation?

You're stretching here, bud.

Neither 83 or 88 reveal signs of anger when I read it. I'm calling fluffs on this explanation.

Oh, so the cussing and the ABSOLUTE RAGE in 83, 88, and 92 were completely lost on you...? Sorry. I am not buying that.

Here's a protip: When someone references a post, maybe you shouldn't be skimming them.

First, Equinox came in and L-1 CKD

forcing a claim on CKD

. Then, as if her unvoting wasn't scummy enough, she threw CKD at the middle of her spectrum at the town side with no explanation for why Vi looks worse or why CKD suddenly earned so much town cred.

Dude. You haven't been reading, have you? I have explained the L-1 and the claim. I have explained how my spectrum works.

+ Second, Equinox in my book likes playing town much more than she would be playing scum. Thus, her hesitance for a scum read makes me believe that she is in fact speaking from her own knowledge and perspective.

The logic the witness is presenting here is

absolute garbage

faulty.

Whether or not I like an alignment absolutely has no bearing on how I read players. A does not lead to B, which cannot lead to C.

tl;dr

Thank you, sir, for your participation, for you have helped me find the mafia, and his name is

nopointinactingup

.

VOTE: nopointinactingup

Now I will address sottyrulez's megaposts.

[Vi]

Any time someone says "I only skimmed" they are attempting to distance from what they posted. In a "I only skimmed and may have missed important things" kinda way.

...I did only skim. I didn't get a choice in the matter. No important things were pointed out, so!

Any time you want to break down, point by point why us not voting CKD is a scum tell in light of all that has happened in this thread I'm willing to listen. You haven't done this.

*Lynching the first claim, if Vanilla, is a good idea in this setup. Nobody disputes this, but you've been quite vocal about it.
*ckd made the first claim and it was Vanilla.
**BRANCH: ckd made his claim without prompting, leading to blaming the person who put him at L-1. Later.
*You did not push for his lynch, but instead tried to lynch someone else for reasons that are by and large

bad

(see branch). CONTRADICTION.

**RETURNING TO BRANCH: ckd made his claim without prompting, leading to blaming the person who put him at L-1.
**As has been mentioned before, it's actually quite dubious that Equinox actually wanted a claim from ckd.
***Claims are meant to be LAST RESORTS, as in one should only claim if they think it will save them from a lynch. This rule is older than the E7 setup. Thus, people should only be asked to claim by people who are interested in laying a hammer and should only claim if they think it will save them.
**You claim that site meta says otherwise; that claiming is a natural part of being put at L-1. Disregarding how strategically disadvantageous that is, you also assume that everyone thinks and acts in this way. This is a major part of your case, and also wrong.
**SEPARATE PART OF CASE: Equinox backed down from her L-1 vote due to thinking ckd was Townish on "tone".
**But you did too! Well, minus the L-1 vote part. You even said that the claim was the only major reason you had for wanting to lynch ckd. Why? It's not like ckd has done anything textbook-better since his claim, so it must be something else, like his "tone" perhaps.
**But wait, you're calling that reasoning invalid since you're pursuing Equinox for it. CONTRADICTION.

***Vi called you on basically all of this. OMG scum.
***Vi defended Equinox vigorously based on all of this. OMG scumpartners.
***Vi is the sort of raving lunatic psycho who would actually do that sort of thing and has provided a game for meta in case either Zachrulez or Sotty7 somehow hasn't played like three or four games with me. OMG raving luna--wait, I'm the one who said that.
***Vi is evidently not scumhunting in spite of saying these things

ad nauseum

. OMG scum trying to obfuscate things.
***Vi is frankly tired of listening to you and wouldn't be asking for others to show up if Vi wanted to lynch you RIGHT NOW. OMG editorial. But in all seriousness, I'm less sold on you-scum as much as you-deadwrong.

Anything missing?

[nopointinactingup]

After all that build-up, post 137 is a pretty big disappointment.

Equinox, you know very well I don't like Wall-of-Text.

tl;dr "CKD isn't playing like his meta, so he's probably scum."

More accurately put, CKD is not playing like his meta, so I have a definite suspicion on him.

First point of contention: "...which is opposite from me actually." Are you saying that you were unwilling to participate in the game initially? I understand that you had to go on V/LA for the greater part of the game day, so I apologize if I take your statement the wrong way. However, this piques my interest. Why?

I was on V/LA. I could say that I'm not so passionate in early game, whether I'm willing to participate or not. Why the sudden interest in digressing?

Second point of contention: While I agree that CKD not using his town status to maximum advantage is quite worrying, you... seem to disagree with the assessment of the majority here. What about CKD's claim and subsequent posts do you not believe?

Once again you are digressing. I did not state whether I believe in CKD or not. I simply think CKD is acting scummy.

I like to think that I am reasonable and will consider all facets of the evidence presented to me. If I feel something potentially throws a wrench in my read of a player, I will say as much unless I'm bluffing my way for a reaction.

If you are still considering the facets and such, why the quick L-1 vote? Your backpedalling suggests that you are uncertain about CKD yet you leave your vote at L-1.

This is in bolded green because I'm freaking awesome.

HOW DOES THIS NOT MAKE SENSE?! Isn't this the whole damn point of an interrogation?

You're stretching here, bud.

Ok. I see what you might have been thinking, but such quick change of heart still incriminates you.

First, Equinox came in and L-1 CKD

forcing a claim on CKD

. Then, as if her unvoting wasn't scummy enough, she threw CKD at the middle of her spectrum at the town side with no explanation for why Vi looks worse or why CKD suddenly earned so much town cred.

Dude. You haven't been reading, have you? I have explained the L-1 and the claim. I have explained how my spectrum works.

So your sole reasoning for strongly believing in CKD-town is him being frustrated?

+ Second, Equinox in my book likes playing town much more than she would be playing scum. Thus, her hesitance for a scum read makes me believe that she is in fact speaking from her own knowledge and perspective.

The logic the witness is presenting here is

absolute garbage

faulty.

Whether or not I like an alignment absolutely has no bearing on how I read players. A does not lead to B, which cannot lead to C.

It's not logic, more of a feeling on how you would read other players.

tl;dr

Thank you, sir, for your participation, for you have helped me find the mafia, and his name is

nopointinactingup

.

VOTE: nopointinactingup

I'll give you one post to undo your scummy OGMUS.

At this point, I do have agree that Equinox's clarification make some sense. Whether or not she actually intends to force a claim on CKD is also dubious. I will need St.K's input to reevaluate my read.