Mini 1073: Autumn Mafia - Game Over!

[Me=Weird]

Vote: FeRnAnDo

Bad shift key.

[Me=Weird]

I disagree. Going after lurkers is standard and good town play. And the fact that there's 4 players who have only posted once is really irksome to me. VOTE: Fernando

Mod: What are the prodding policies in this game?

Okay, so there's 4 people who hadn't posted more than once yet. Why pick him? Looks like bandwagoning to me.

why are you posting scumlists on page three?

i generally think that scumlists are anti-town, to make one on page three borders on ludicrous.

How are they anti-town? It shares opinions, which is pro-town. And if you mean the stupid "it tells scum who to NK" argument, I'm of the opinion that it's fairly easy for scum to find who people think to be pro-town based on interactions.

with regards to your zinive case, i'm not interested. it's on page two and is basically based on air. (i have read it, for the record). the impression i'm actually getting is that you're on a mission to lead town. unsure about your underlying motivation, guess we'll wait and see on that.

Fence sitting extreme! Way to not give an opinion.

"There's nothing interesting yet, I'll come back later" seems like a very anti-town attitude.
It gives mafia an excuse to wait for somebody else to be in danger before entering the fray.

well yeah that's a valid point. except that's not what i said. what i actually said was;

don't really care about anything that's been posted thus far. reads like the usual early game irrelevant banter.

There's a difference? They're both "nothing said yet matters. I'll come back later." Just because it's early game doesn't mean nothing matters.

ie: i don't think anything relevant has been said yet. (this has now changed with your bizarro early scumlist).

So the only relevant thing so far is the scum-list? Have you read the thread?

vote: llamarble

ps: putting yourself on (and at the bottom of) your own scumlist is an internet faux pas on par with your own facebook status. you don't do it.

That's it. The moment this game is over, I'm making a thread about it in MD. So many opinions about putting yourself on your scumlist. I don't find it bad, because it's not like you'd put yourself as scummy, and then there are the people who attack you for leaving someone(even yourself) out.

Bolded mine.
It's seeming like cruelty doesn't want to give his opinion, despite information being pro-town. He's also calling everything said useless, just because it's early game(except for a list), which is ignoring the ICE Oso discussion, llama's vote on Oso, and other stuff. He's voting llama just because of a list(AFAICT(as far as I can tell)), which is not in itself scummy.

Unvote, Vote: Cruelty

Yeah, I am V/LA most tuesdays

, but didn't get to say it monday because I got back late. I usually post once a day, but am trying to change that to twice a day. I'm in CST, and have completed about 20 games, am dead in a few, and in one other and this, regarding the questions.

[Me=Weird]

"@Me=weird: I chose fernando to put more pressure on him since he already has a vote."
So you find it better to put more pressure on one person instead of trying to evenly distribute the pressure?

"Also, you're voting cruelty for calling much of the early game discussion useless - does that mean that you disagree with him? What's your opinion on the early game discussion?"
Yes, I do disagree that early game is pointless. RVS can be over in just a few posts, but after that it's still early game, despite being serious. Thus, early game ≠ random and pointless.

Taken from post 23, ICEninja "Quiet, reasonless unvoting and revoting" this is wrong, IMO, because if it's reasonless, people tend to get called out on it.
I don't like how netlava didn't get why Oso ranked him and llama. Should we only do things when forced? As I said earlier, information is pro-town.
Taken from post 41, Llama "I do want to hear more opinions of Zinive." I find it strange that he would single out zinive, and not mention me, or perardua. If llama dies and flips scum, zinive may be a buddy.
I agree with Oso about ICE, for lack of a better word, obsessing about the deadlines. Yes, because they're short it may be harder to lynch your top suspect, but we shouldn't have to change the way we play because of the short deadlines.
Taken from SV's post 60, "Xine is obvTown; I know of her meta through the site and she certainly doesn't strike me as a liar. Since she claims she has "not yet" played as scum, I believe her." So you find her town through meta, when she's only ever been town so far, and because she doesn't seem like a liar? :thumbs down: Need I point out the stupidity of this?

That's pretty much my thoughts on various points of the game up until I posted. Not too much "early game irrelevant banter", I don't think.

[Me=Weird]

"Oso, Xine, M=W and to a lesser extent Zinive have all stayed fairly aloof and logically jumped on a few players.
It's hard to read that sort of playstyle, but so far the cases made have been worth making."
Where has zinive "logically jumped on someone"? And how does that make it harder to read us?

Netlava, why do you ignore my post you asked for, especially since there's a question for you?
"Unvote

I'm mostly just questioning players and observing right now. I don't want to reveal who I suspect until I'm ready. *suspense*"
Withholding information is scummy. Especially since you seem to be doing it for theatrics. We need to know what you think.

Sorry for not having something more substantial up. Allergies are really bad today. Hopefully I'll have something better up tonight.

[Me=Weird]

Okay, so there's 4 people who hadn't posted more than once yet. Why pick him? Looks like bandwagoning to me.

Do you feel Netlava's action is more likely to be done as scum or as town? Bandwagoning is done by both factions.

Yeah, but I feel bandwagoning is marginally more likely to be done by scum than town. But it's not a big tell.

Taken from post 41, Llama "I do want to hear more opinions of Zinive." I find it strange that he would single out zinive, and not mention me, or perardua. If llama dies and flips scum, zinive may be a buddy.

(Link addition is mine.)

It wasn't that strange of Llamarble to single out Zinive at that point, given the situation. You, however, singling out yourself and PerArdua is odd. Why?

And dude, links are a godsend. Use them.

Me and PA were the first to people I thought of who'd barely posted. I don't get why it's odd.

i think that it's reasonable to have 2-3 suspects. confirming that you believe somebody to be town (without a good reason, such as a wagon building against them, a weak case against them etc) isn't really beneficial at any point.

First off, how does wagon against someone, weak case on them, make them likely town? More importantly, why are you being the most disconnected(except for PA) person in the game? You've failed to give any insight, except that you dislike lists.

Llama, I believe the point is that you seem to be thinking 3rd votes are opportunistic and scummy, when you made a third vote.

V/LA tomorrow(Oct. 23rd) as indicated in my sig.

[Me=Weird]

Me and PA were the first to people I thought of who'd barely posted. I don't get why it's odd.

Odd because the reason Llamarble singled out Zinive was not the same reason you brought up yourself and PerArdua.

I thought the pairing was strange, but your explanation seems reasonable.

Me and PA were the first to people I thought of who'd barely posted. I don't get why it's odd.

As someone else stated, the reasons for being suspicious had nothing to do with you and Per, so it did seem odd.

@both: I simply found it weird that he wanted one players opinion when other people didn't give opinions either.

Unvote, Vote: Zinive

I also thought that the 3rd vote was scummy since this is most of the times the point where random voting can turn into a bandwagon. The reasoning given for why also doesn't satisfy me. Oso is talking currently adding pressure now just seems odd.

So he thinks third votes are scummy, but only unvotes Oso, and didn't vote llama. He also made 2 posts after the third vote before commenting on it.

This being said I did find Osos reasoning appealing and correct so I have no complains there.

This seems to imply he thinks Oso's reasoning is good because he's happy about the way it's going, but I don't consider this a strong point.

I think we still don't have a good reason to start moving a bandwagon to already make a lynch but assuming the short deadline and the low amount of content we have right now I don't think your vote on me is too suspicious Llamarble.

This was 10 day's before the deadline. And how is making a first vote on a person "moving a bandwagon"? We also had a unusually high amount of content for 2 pages.

I have taken my vote of off Oso because our RVS has ended and I was satisfied with his response. I have not made a vote for someone else because there is not enough against anyone at the table at this point. If forced to vote I would have to decide between either shattered or Llamarble.

I thought that third votes were scummy? Maybe he's scum not wanting to make a ill-reasoned vote.
He expresses suspicion of cruelty, but doesn't vote him and instead votes SV later.

I'd still much rather vote cruelty, but he seems to be

second

or not on people's scumlist.

[Me=Weird]

The discussion of Zinive does seem like fence-sitting to me, and could indicate scumbuddies.

What do you mean by this, Llama?

I was pretty sure that Equi was scum due to her constant "more later LOL" comments. Now, not so sure. Must re-read that.

Looking through your ISO,

I refuse to participate in Random Voting, so let me know when you're done with that.

More later today, kinda rushed right now.

Truthfully, I have to take the time and iso everyone. I've not been paying enough attention to this game. Today is rather pressed, but I will have Real Content throughout Tuesday.

The first one wasn't as big, but that last one was in the same post. Hypocrisy noted.
Equinox, I don't get why you keep apologizing for not much time and saying more later, and then making(and being aware of it, judging my your apologies) huge wall posts.
Xine, please vote zinive instead. I'm pretty sure Equinox is a "she".
Hi AH. Vote zinive. Redeem your slot.

[Me=Weird]

Deadline has motivated me to look at fernando.
Random vote when there was serious discussion.
When he voted SV, it looked like he tacked on the OMGUS as justification, and didn't initially vote him because of it, but rather because of his rudeness. That is, a very easy vote.
He assumed that it was RVS because he hadn't posted yet. Imagine if there were 5 pages of good content and you hadn't posted yet. Would you still random vote?
It would be silly to vote when four more are needed

if the goal is to quicklynch.

If, as more commonly happens, he wanted an easy vote that he didn't need to provide reasoning for, not quite as silly. Scum don't often try to quicklynch unless it's LyLo, so why would you assume that's what somebody's trying to do?
He last visited four days ago, but his last post was a week ago.
Not my preferred lynch, but I see no reason to lynch the claimed JK without results. Plus deadline and all.

Unvote, Vote: FeRnAnDo

Equinox: I brought that up because it seems somewhat hypocritical to apologize for not enough time, in huge wall-post.

[Me=Weird]

Sorry, meant claimed action. Like, say if he claimed to have targeted someone who claimed to have successfully targeted someone that night.

[Me=Weird]

Although I suppose there's the possibility of a scum roleblocker.

[Me=Weird]

Well, I was going to look through netlava's ISO, but I think that'll be delayed a bit, because I view the following as a slip.

Well, wow. I really just don't even want to play this game anymore.

To whoever the vig is, sure I don't mind Shattered dying on the account that he was an ass, but did you even look at the vote count? He was one of the few people NOT on the mislynch wagon. Terrible shot choice.

But whatever. I really just don't even care at all at this point.

It's a slip because only scum would know that it's a vig, because of their team size/power. There have been numerous case's of two scum groups in a MN. Usually 2 groups of 2, so ICEninja's probably on team of 3, or with lots of power. Furthermore, why was it a bad shot just because SV wasn't on the lynch? Parts of that post also seemed like AtE, and there was the early game obsession with short deadlines.

Vote: ICEninja

[Me=Weird]

229: What do you mean, "both lynches"? We've only had one lynch.
230: You're basing set-up speculation off of flavor in a normal? If you don't want to play, replace out. Apathy is worse then useless, as it can make others apathetic.
231: I agree that until now, ICE was fairly pro-town, but that first post of the day read to much like scum slipping up. I don't see why it's a "fail-vote". How do you know that Oso's faking it?
232: "We have a difficult decision to make here. If we mislynch today and the local flaker doesn't come back and post, we could be in endgame by Night 2." The problem with this is that it's assuming the vig(if it is a vig) would shoot, knowing that if he was wrong, scum would probably win. Policy lynch idea is dumb. If he's scum and we lynch someone else, then that's pretty good, awesome if the person we lynch is scum. If both the person we lynch and PA are town, then vig doesn't shoot. Why do you want to look at ICE if you still think he's town?
235: If being in this game makes you unhappy, just replace out. I think we should let PA get modkilled too, but you seem to want to because if we lynch him scum and sk/vig get more shots? Not sure what you mean by that. :/ I'm starting to agree on Oso, though.
241: For all that you go on about ICE obsessing about the deadlines, and voting the lurker, that didn't seem to stop you from voting fernando, who flaked. I know you said that you would, but I don't see why you hammered someone you thought was town when someone else expressed willingness to hammer. Out of curiosity, who else did you think you'd caught as scum?
244: What am I trying to use against ICE? Is it the obsessing about deadlines thing? That distracted from actual content you know. As in, not townish. And how does it make me one of the top three scummiest people? I'm having trouble deciphering parts of Oso's post too, but that may be because I didn't get much sleep last night. "I think I agree with Agar and Equinox that Ice is town, but sleep will tell." Are you aware that AGar is the mod? lol
IDK, I'm starting to get a frustrated townie feel from ICE, and the slip isn't seeming as much of a slip. I'm gonna look things over later.

[Me=Weird]

Eh whatever. It's seeming less of a slip and more just a bad assumption. Although flavor wise, you'd think the mafia would be the ones careless with bullets, not vig. I can buy Oso being scum.
Here, he said he wouldn't hammer a lurker unless if he didn't we'd get a no lynch, and that he thought Fernando was town. Didn't stop him from hammering even when someone else expressed willingness to hammer. So he hammered someone he thought was town when someone else would've hammered.
In response to ICE having his vote on fernando, ICE had voted him because he found fernando scummy, not because he lurked. Why do you find ICE scummy for thinking about how BaM makes this game different and acting differently because of that when, as you've admitted, you do too? Hypocrisy noted.
Scum are more likely to forget where their vote is, because they're faking it.
He avoided my question, and instead explained why he hammered.

Unvote, Vote: Oso

L-1, I believe.

[Me=Weird]

@chesskid: Defending someone else because of a bad case is

not

scummy.
If we lynch town, then if the vig misvigs, we're probably going to lose.
We haven't just been "sheeping", we've given reasoning for our votes on Oso. I don't believe there were any complaints about his playstyle.
It's not that the hammer was stupid, it was scummy.
And no, the problem wasn't that he wasn't providing content.
No-one said anything about claiming PR means your deadproof. Just that without evidence that points to the claim being false, there's no reason to kill a claimed PR.
Well, see, if someone's at L-1, and there's someone who's probably willing to hammer, then general procedure is to ask for a claim.
P-edit: I endorse the plead for a hammer. And if it really is a mis-lynch, then the vig would probably be pretty stupid to shoot. AtE doesn't help your case.

[Me=Weird]

Okay, if you're town, then maybe the vig should shoot. Because a possible LyLo is better than autolose. But if you're scum, then the vig shouldn't shoot.
As for a case, viewtopic.php?p=2606949#p2606949

[Me=Weird]

Oh, and as for flaking being town tell, Encore mafia. CDB flaked. He was scum. Flaking is a nulltell.
And no that's not it. Read the damn case.

[Me=Weird]

I'm here. Of course 2 of my busiest days of the month would be right after day starts. I'll have a post up tomorrow.

[Me=Weird]

So first off, I could go with a lynch even though it's MyLo, because llama is almost confirmed town unless someone CCs. Which means we have the same lynch options as if we NLd and someone got NK'd.
I, too, want to lynch Xine. She hasn't contributed much so far, voted llama for a "contradiction" that wasn't one, voted fernando saying "cuz he's scum" with her only previous suspicions of him weren't really suspicions, just saying that she might vote for him later because of deadline. Her wagon "analysis" was just voting AH, presumably because he was fourth and sixth on the wagons she mentioned? She voted AH instead of Oso because oso hammered, which I don't get as hammering is a null tell, then she didn't respond to one thing and instead attacked him. Right now, it's perfectly reasonable to ask someone to claim at L-3, because if it were L-2, then there's the risk of scum QHing, same with L-1. Also, PoE.
A second choice would be Netopalis, for tunneling on llama with a weak case.

[Me=Weird]

Not much new to say, except that despite asking ICEninja for a case, Xine hasn't responded to mine. Would vote, but I'm waiting for Neto's post, which he promised would be done a couple days ago.

[Me=Weird]

This game needs a big activity boost. Neto's post didn't really dissuade me. Not really seeing Equinox, IIRC, she didn't seem wishy-washy, and got onto Oso about as much as she did with other people. Anyway, I see no reason not to

Vote: Xine

[Me=Weird]

Yes!! Good job, Equinox.
Antihero, I don't think it was anything you did. I think it was more that cruelty was bad. And no, calling Oso scum doesn't clear you. I mean, look how me and Equinox bussed him.

Xine, you can't just claim VT and expect to be cleared. You have to actually do town things. lol at Ythill thinking she's scum too.
I'm fine with the QT being posted, but I always seem to do it so Equinox can.

[Me=Weird]

About why we killed Zinive instead of ICE, I think we just decided a known PR was a better kill than someone who might not be, turns out that was good as ICE was jailed.

Before I hammered I had the idea that if Xine wasn't scum, the lack of a quickhammer meant two of her wagon were.

The problem with this is that the only person to post between L-1 and the hammer was you and Xine. Who obviously wasn't going to quickhammer herself.