Mafia 121 -- Picking Simplicity Game Over

[Yosarian2]

/confirm

[Yosarian2]

Claim:

either

doctor or cop, to get that out of the way.

Ugh, that was terrible.

I have no idea what's going on with the LMP wagon. Glork's probably just trying to get reactions, which is fine, but I'm weirded out by comments like this from empking:

3. Because you're the scummiest player so it looks like he's trying to avoid a connection.

LMP had only made a few posts by this point, and none of them looked especially scummy to me. Want to explain yourself, empking?

I'm getting the feeling I'm about to enter a catch-22. If I say "oh you're right, Nikanor is trying to avoid a connection with me" then I'm admitting that avoiding a connection with me is somehow scummy. If I say "No, Nikanor isn't avoiding a connection with me" then you'll only take that as further evidence that we're distancing from each other.

On the other hand, this is kind of scummy, in an "overly concerned about what people think about him" kind of way.

[Yosarian2]

2. LMP liked Jack's claim. Town was like "Ugh" but LMP had to guess as to the feelings of the town with nothing to go on (he posted first) and he guessed completely wrong.

Um, no, he didn't say he "liked" Jack's claim. He said that Jack's claim meant Jack was probably town, which is pretty obviously true. Terrible, terrible town, but town. In response to Glork and others attacking Jack, LMP pointed out that Jack's claim doesn't make sense as a scum gambit, which it doesn't, at all. I tend to think that post on LMP's part was quite pro-town.

[Yosarian2]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: LynchMePls

You're trying to paint me as scum for something I never even referenced. I made my joke, yes, and then never followed up on it. Not once did I mention Nikanor's play on my joke, I asked why you insisted on bringing it up. I said I like Empking because he was echoing the sentiment of why are you bringing it up.

Do you think LMP is scum, or do you just not like the fact that he voted for you?

[Yosarian2]

I like Jack's claim.

FoS: Yos

For saying something that obviously an untruth.

Yeah, yeah. I had forgotten about that line, actually.

But the actual point of my post, that you for some reason completly ignored, was that LMP's real argument was:

Do you think this makes sense as a scum gambit?

Was a strong, logical argument, it made sense in context, and it's probably correct. Beyond that, it has what look to be good, pro-town motives behind it, and I think LMP is probably town based on this. I find the actual attacks on Jack, especially your fos of him, a lot more iffy then anything lmp said.

Again, of course Jack's play here was really bad, but that's not the issue here.

[Yosarian2]

I still say that Jack is probably scum.

Explain this to me, then.

With his claim, if Jack is scum, he's doomed himself, for little to no apparent gain. There are exactally two power roles in this game, they will eventually both either claim or be nightkilled for one reason or another, and if that happens and Jack is not one of them, he's dead.

I mean, I could see a really desprate, gambiting scum deciding to claim doc right away on day 1 if he thought it was worth it to sacrifice himself in order to get the real doc to counterclaim, that's a theoretically possible move, but Jack's claim doesn't even do that.

There's almost no chance Jack is scum here, and if he is, then we'll find out anyway. Your claimed suspicions on him here are just making me increasingly suspicious of you.

[Yosarian2]

Wow the player who's lying and defending LMP is trying to threaten me out of my suspicions of Jack. God, I'm afraid.

Vote:Empking

Yeah, not buying the "Ooohh, I'm sooo scared" act. You're scum, aren't you? Probably scum who's hoping for a chance to lynch a town power role today; you're not going to take the risk of really pushing the Jack wagon, but you're making sure you can get on it if it looks like it might go somewhere.

Plus, the way you're throwing around the word "lying" here in a situation where it clearly dosn't apply feels like a scummy diversion attempt, as is you trying to sound like me "defending LMP" is somehow a strike against me.

Jack has the benefit of outing the power roles in (what's probably) the near future.

Bull.

No town role is going to claim in order to counter a "I'm either a doc or a cop" claim. Sure, at some point in the future, if, for example, a doc claims, the cop would know that either the doc or Jack is lying, but he still wouldn't counterclaim; he's investigate and figure out which one is lying.

The odds of Jack's claim outing any town power roles in the immedeate future are pretty low.

In the mean time he may have been planning at looking really pro-town in order to lead the town along with getting the doc to protect a scumbag and off a townie. Its a suicide mission but one that clearly has large gains for scum.

Pffft.

If he's lying scum, all he did was attract a ton of attention to himself early on day 1 for no reason, increase the odds a cop investigates him, guarantee his eventual doom, and he dosn't get anything out of it. Why would you think that would let him "lead the town"? Town or not, who the hell would blindly follow him after a boneheaded move like that day 1 claim?

Your theory makes no sense. Also, you're probably scum.

[Yosarian2]

LMP: I like the claim.
Me: LMP says he liked the claim.
Yos: No he didn't.
That's a pretty clear cut lie.

Are you scum, or are you just delibratly being obtuse?

as is you trying to sound like me "defending LMP" is somehow a strike against me.

The fact that you're defending scum while at the same time attacking (one of) his most vocal attacker is a strike against you.

If LMP flips scum, then yes, me defending him would be a rational argument against me.

What you're doing now, though, is just terrible. You made a bad argument against someone who looks mildly townish to me so far, I called you out on it, and now you're trying to say I'm "defending scum".

If you think LMP is scum, make a real case for it, try to get him lynched. If you get him lynched, and he flips scum, then you can try to look for connections. That's not what you're doing right now. What you're doing right now seems to be assuming that your horrible and illogical case is right for no apparent reason and then attacking anyone who disagrees with you by saying they're "defending scum".

Your acting like somebody who knows they're on LMP's team.

So, if I see you try to make a bullshit attack on Jack, and then you follow it up by attacking LMP for pointing out that your attack was bullshit, I shouldn't dare question your moves, because I would only do that if I "knew what team LMP is on"? Is that really the argument you're trying to make here? Because I'm pretty sure that's not how mafia is played.

And the cop claims. Outing one of our power roles in the near future.

So, now you're worried about the cop claiming on like day 3 or 4 with several results at least one guilty? The cop SHOULD usually claim in that kind of situation. You're not making sense.

Boneheaded people especially when his scumbuddies are supporting his claim.

And it looks like you're pretty much just going to try to ignore everything I say by calling me, and anyone who disagrees with you, scum, and saying that they must be scum because they disagree with you, right? Yeah, that's a pretty standard scum tactic.

[Yosarian2]

LMP: I like the claim.
Me: LMP says he liked the claim.
Yos: No he didn't.
That's a pretty clear cut lie.

Are you scum, or are you just delibratly being obtuse?

Essentially we have two choices.
1. You forgot about LMP's post and you're scum protecting another player.

OR

2. You're scum protecting another player.

...dude, what kind of drugs are you on?

Essentially, we have one choices.

1. I forgot about that line in LMP's post, and wasn't thinking about it when I responded to you. Also, I still don't really think it's important, since the relevent post is the one where he explained himself, and you're still avoiding actually talking about the relevent stuff by pretending me forgetting one line is some kind of huge proof of conspiracy.

Nothing else makes sense. I don't even begin to understand how you can take that and assume I'm "protecting" someone.

as is you trying to sound like me "defending LMP" is somehow a strike against me.

The fact that you're defending scum while at the same time attacking (one of) his most vocal attacker is a strike against you.

If LMP flips scum, then yes, me defending him would be a rational argument against me.

What you're doing now, though, is just terrible. You made a bad argument against someone who looks mildly townish to me so far, I called you out on it, and now you're trying to say I'm "defending scum".

If you think LMP is scum, make a real case for it, try to get him lynched. If you get him lynched, and he flips scum, then you can try to look for connections. That's not what you're doing right now. What you're doing right now seems to be assuming that your horrible and illogical case is right for no apparent reason and then attacking anyone who disagrees with you by saying they're "defending scum". [/quote]
You're lying to defend LMP and your chainsawing to protect LMP. At least half your actions in this game have been indirect defense and spreading falsehoods to protect LMP. There's a connection and I'm not going to forget about that if it turns out that you were just buddying LMP.[/quote]

...again, what drugs are you on?

Actually, most of my posts this game have been directly or indirectly attacking you. I attacked your lame attack on LMP, I attacked your super scummy and lame attack on Jack, and I'm now attacking your lame OMGUS attacks on me. Because you're acting like scum.

Also, I like what you're doing here. If I defend someone and they're scum, I'm "chainsawing". If I defend someone and they're town, I'm "buddying". You don't actualyl care about facts, or about if what I'm saying makes sense, you just want to pretend that you think I'm scum so you can fake scumhunting, right? Just like you did with Jack and LMP.

Why is the cop investigating Jack when he could just come up with one more innocent and still reveal Jack as scum (by getting the doctor to claim).

You're right, the cop shouldn't investigate Jack, and the doc shouldn't claim to reveal Jack as scum. THIS IS WHY JACK'S PLAY MAKES NO SENSE AS SCUM. You're proving the EXACT point I was trying to make all along, at the same time you're calling me scum for making it.

Guys, can we please just lynch EmpKing now?

Boneheaded people especially when his scumbuddies are supporting his claim.

And it looks like you're pretty much just going to try to ignore everything I say by calling me, and anyone who disagrees with you, scum, and saying that they must be scum because they disagree with you, right? Yeah, that's a pretty standard scum tactic.

Seriously, I FoS a page ago and now I'm suddenly calling you scum because you disagree with me.[/quote]

"Suddenly?" You FOS'd me becasue I disagreed with you about LMP, right?

[Yosarian2]

I want to call yos-empking distancing on this one.

Whatever. Just help me lynch the obvscum empking today, and I don't care what you want to call it.

[Yosarian2]

If you think LMP is scum, make a real case for it, try to get him lynched.

Does "Glork says so" count? Because it should.

Heh. Don't bail EmpKing out now, Glork; let him wriggle on the hook for a while longer, I want to see how much more he's going to implicate himself as scum.

[Yosarian2]

It could be that there are a bunch of explainations for your scummy defense of LMP that are all perfectly innocent.

Um, that'd be great, if you could explain how my defense of LMP was "scummy". Of course, you can't, because it's not; at least not without pretending that I made some kind of deliberate lie about what he said, even though you clearly know that doesn't make sense.

Wow is almost as if expending all your energy in defending somebody is scummy regardless of the other person's alignment isn't it?

No, of course it's not. If a player is under attack, and I think that attack is flawed, it's pro-town to point that out. If someone I think is likely pro-town is under attack, then it's pro-town to defend them.

The goal of town people is to lynch scum, empking, not to sit back and let people who are probably town get lynched for bad reasons.

Also, I'm pretty sure that right now I'm expending about 95% of my energy in trying to lynch you, because you're acting like caught scum.

Why is the cop investigating Jack when he could just come up with one more innocent and still reveal Jack as scum (by getting the doctor to claim).

You're right, the cop shouldn't investigate Jack, and the doc shouldn't claim to reveal Jack as scum. THIS IS WHY JACK'S PLAY MAKES NO SENSE AS SCUM. You're proving the EXACT point I was trying to make all along, at the same time you're calling me scum for making it.

increase the odds a cop investigates him

Contradicting yourself now. [/quote]

No, I'm not.

If Jack hadn't done anything, and he's not the cop, the odds of him being investigated were something like 1/19, just like everyone else. If he's not the cop, they're almost certanly higher then that now.

Does that make it the right move for a cop to investigate him? No, it dosn't, because we already know that Jack is like 95% likely town, and if he is scum he'll be caught without wasting an investigation.

There is no contradiction between those two statements. From a "Jack-Scum" point of view, one of the reasons that this fake claim would be a terrible idea is that it'd increase the odds of him being cop investigated. That dosn't mean that I think a cop SHOULD investigate Jack; I don't.

"Suddenly?" You FOS'd me becasue I disagreed with you about LMP, right?

Are you calling the LMP "like" thing a disagreement because even Jack admitted that was a falsehood.

The relevant thing her was you making a scummy, illogical case against LMP, and me trying to find out why to get a read on your alignment by asking you questions about this. Note that I started doing this before you FOS'd me, and in fact, your FOS on me was in response to my second post directed towards you on the subject.

The irrelevant thing was me forgetting a throwaway line LMP made that didn't really have anything to do with the point I was making.

You're focusing on the irrelevant thing in order to avoid actually discussing the relevant matter at hand; you don't want to explain your case on LMP, because you don't have one; you don't want to explain why you think Jack is scum, because you know that doesn't make any sense, so you're playing semantic games and trying to distract the town with irrelevancies. Again, that's what caught scum do.

[Yosarian2]

Fucking Conciseness: How does it work!?

Seriously, what's up with the towers of text on page 8? I tried to read through them to see if anything could be gleaned, but it's basically reiteration of the same two stances in slightly novel and different ways. Also practically impossible to read ways. Could you each, in 5 sentences or less, without quotes, state your damned positions?

Empking made a horrible case on Jack, who's probably town, because Jack's play here doesn't make any sense as a scum gambit, for pretty basic game mechanics reasons.

In response, LMP (correctly, imo) pointed out that Jack's play dosn't make any sense as scum.

Empking decided LMP was scum because LMP was defending Jack.

I pointed out that LMP's post was rational and that both of empking's attacks didn't make sense.

Empking decided I was scum because I was defending LMP, and because of an unimportant mistake I made in the way I worded my resposne to him.

Since then, he's been using irrelevant distractions, bad assumptions, walls of text, and clearly irrational stuff to call me scum over and over again, while not at all defending his initial attacks on Jack and LMP. I think Empking is scum who knew his attacks on Jack and LMP were bull from the start, based on the way Empking has been reacting; and I think he's hoping that if she spouts enough random BS, no one will notice.

(Ok, that was 7 sentences .)

[Yosarian2]

Also, sleeping on it, Yos agreed with my quote (which was devoid of context and used pretty much the same words we were using) far too quickly for somebody who didn't know about the line.

How long do you think it takes to click the bottom of the page and hit "read all posts by user?" It wasn't hard to double check, and to realize you were talking about a different post then the one I was thinking of.

Yos: Are you considering Jack's meta before debunking EmpKing's theory? (Jack is scumWIFOMclaiming PR Theory?)

I haven't played with Jack in a while, so no, I don't really have much meta on him. I don't think it's relevant, though. All you have to do is assume he's playing to his win condition, and his act doesn't make any sense as scum. And, in any case, there is also very little risk to just assuming he is town for now, since if he's scum we'll find out soon enough and for no cost; on the other hand, lynching him would obviously be a huge risk, since if he's telling the truth he's one of our two power roles.

[Yosarian2]

Does anyone really think emp is making endgame if he's scum?

This is really a horrible reason to not lynch someone.

Why, exactly, wouldn't empking make it to endgame as scum here? If you're saying that he's not going to make it to endgame because we're eventually going to lynch him because he's acting like scum...then why aren't we lynching him now for acting like scum? Doesn't make sense to me. If you're saying something else, then please spell it out for me.

[Yosarian2]

I think you'll find posting a whole lot is actually a scum tell

(slaps forehead)

Really? Well UK your dumber than I thought then. Why exactly is it another reason? You still are yet to provide anything of worth to back that up.

She really didn't need to give a reason, because your post there was just that obviously scummy.

Hey I don't mind if you lynch me as that will protect a power role for one more night.

Jesus. Did you just claim vanilla town out of the blue for no reason? So horrible.

I still really want to lynch Emp today, but man, Snake looks bad.

[Yosarian2]

Snake's posting has been poor but I can't say I see him as much scum as the person I'm currently voting.

Empking decided LMP was scum because LMP was defending Jack.

Thisd isn't true. as I've said numerous times, I thought LMP was scum based on him expressing happiness at Jack's claim.

LMP explained quite clearly that he wasn't "expressing happiness" at Jack's claim, he was saying that Jack's play dosn't make sense as a scum gambit. And you didn't vote for him after he had explained this. So you clearly knew what he actually was saying; you just didn't care, since a literal (mis)reading of his words gave you an excuse to follow Glork and place a bad vote on someone. Just like you did with me a few posts later.

You are consistently ignoring what people obviously mean in favor of what you can quote them out of context as having said in order to attack you, and that's what gives you away as being scum.

[Yosarian2]

I can't tell if you're serious, Xine, but I'm pretty confident that posting a lot is more a town tell then anything else.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: Give me a quote where LMP says that he doesn't like Jack's claim and

just

thinks its an unlikerly scum gambit. (other than when he quoted you and said "WIN")

I'm confused here by your thought process, empking; what did you think LMP meant by that line, if not "I think Jack is probably town"? It seemed obvious in context, especially after his next post.

[Yosarian2]

/conform

I'm not getting anything from my read other than

Vote:SnakePlissken

Why's that, yugiboy?

(Also, is anyone else amused that through a typo, he said "conform" instead of "confirm" and then joined the biggest wagon for no reason?)

[Yosarian2]

Yos: Give me a quote where LMP says that he doesn't like Jack's claim and

just

thinks its an unlikerly scum gambit. (other than when he quoted you and said "WIN")

I'm confused here by your thought process, empking; what did you think LMP meant by that line, if not "I think Jack is probably town"? It seemed obvious in context, especially after his next post.

That he considered Jack's claim as beneficial for town.

That wasn't how I read it, especially not in light of his next post. In any case; are you saying that you think that LMP has some incorrect ideas about mafia theory and about what is beneficial for the town, and that makes him scum?

[Yosarian2]

Dangit, wrong account. I keep doing that, sorry.

[Yosarian2]

Haylen looks pretty town here, imo.

I'm starting to lose confidence in the Empking wagon; his arguments still don't really make sense, but I'm starting to think he might believe them. I'm not really excited about any of the other wagons, though. We do need to hear more from CJmiller, so a little pressure on him is good.

Anyway, I'm going to go in a different direction for the moment.

unvote

Vote:Azazal

His early posts look pretty iffy, and he's been lurking for a week since then.

[Yosarian2]

Meh.

Unvote:Azazal

Vote:SnakePlissken

UncertainKitten has looked really town so far this game. That kind of OMGUS attack seems like a desperate scum struggling to not die to me.

[Yosarian2]

Meanwhile,

Mod, could you prod Azazel, please?

I'd like to hear from him before the end of the day here.

[Yosarian2]

Wow. I was pretty much wrong about everything on day 1 of this game, wasn't I. Well, good thing I got nightkilled before I did much damage, I guess, lol.