Newbie 1024 -- Minimalist Mafia (Game Over)

[Beefster]

/confirm

[Beefster]

1) MST (GMT -7)
2) Obviously more than 5 games on this site, being an IC. Some IRC Mafia. And some IRL Mafia.
3) 1-2 times a day
4) Male

VOTE: Trendall for being the first to confirm. Somebody's excited to play.

[Beefster]

[IC] (Other IC's may have an IC hat that they put on and take off. I'm hardcore. I use IC

tags

)
There should have been activity from others in the last 5 hours. I'll just get started with my IC spiel.

Hello, I am your friendly, neighborhood IC, short for Inexperienced Challenged. (The name pokes fun at political correctness)
Anyway, This game is my highest priority game. If I only have enough time to check through 1 game in a day, this will be the one. I will do my best to answer questions about theory and common practices on this forum. I would prefer you bold questions or something like that, especially for urgent/important questions.
I don't expect perfect play. I don't even really expect good play. Chances are this is your first or second game. It's okay. You are here to learn and improve.
I am not God, nor am I perfect. I will, however, do my best to exemplify what a good player should do.

Now for some dos: (I am an optimist)
Think for yourself. Nothing can be gained from being a sheep.
Post often. Even when you may not think there is anything constructive to post, there will always be at least a "lets get going" type post. Once a day is usually a reasonable target. Twice a day is even better. Don't go overboard. (Once you get past about 8 posts/day, it tends to form a layer of spam and makes games really annoying to replace into.)
Make constructive posts. When a post does not really contribute to the discussion, it's called fluff, or when done consistently, active lurking, something considered scummy.
Use good spelling and grammar. There's nothing more annoying then really being far as decided to want even go to do look more like. wile i du liek mudkipz, sentneses liek tihs ar dificlt to undrstnd & wed all muhc rahter raed thru an itnlligable setnecne, r bteter yte, praargahp. (I think you get my point)
Relax. You don't have to be serious all the time. Online mafia plays nothing like IRL mafia. You can't see faces.
Think at face value. Nothing good can be gained by saying what you think X would do in Y situation. This leads to circular logic, AKA WIFOM, which never helps.
Day 1 is a time to experiment. It is not uncommon for a player to cast a meaningless vote at the beginning of day 1 to test for reactions. It's not usually a problem to switch your vote 3 or 4 times on Day 1. You want to look for abnormalities in play, as abnormality is the general sign of scumminess.
Think before you hit "Submit". It will help you look like a contributing townsperson, which is the goal regardless of your actual alignment.
Read the wiki. There is a lot of valuable information there.
If you don't currently have an avatar, please get one. It really helps with identification.
Last but not least, follow my example. That's why I'm here.

I will teach more as we go. It's already a lot to absorb all at once.
[/IC]

[Beefster]

These questions are harmless and not very relevant. What are you trying to accomplish in asking them?

[Beefster]

Was the reasoning behind your random vote for me at the start of the day in any way serious?

Not really.

[Beefster]

Do you like it better when you play as Town, Mafia or a Third Party? And why?

VOTE: Kayi for this blatant alignment fishing question.

It's not much to go on, but it's more than nothing.

IGMEOU: Mastin

for answering it.

[Beefster]

I dunno, it seems like an off question to me in general. It's like the loaded "are you excited" question that I've never been a fan of. It's supposed to fish for power roles.

Good point though. I wasn't thinking of that.

Unvote

I'm stupid.

[Beefster]

I've been stuck at my church all day working on a haunted house. I got home about 20 minutes ago.

About the alignment fishing- I couldn't exactly place my finger on what was scummy about the question- it was very much an alignment fishing question, something that I've never agreed with. Questions like that can be interpreted in nearly any way and aren't even effective at catching scum reliably, at least from my experience.

I wanted to explain my position, but I couldn't figure out how. Thanks, Neruz. So yeah, not as bad as rolefishing, but still enough to throw up some red flags. It's good enough for how far we are in the game.

That said, I'm going to put my vote back on.
VOTE: Kayl

[Beefster]

@Beef, I won't deny that your reasoning seems weird to me. You're admitting that you don't know why you found it scummy, while also admitting that you just don't like this sort of question. It seems to me like your vote is based purely on that personal preference.

It's the "I know I've seen scum do this somewhere" kind of argument. You also seem to be too logical to be a village idiot which is the other type of player that tends to alignment fish.

Granted, it's not much, so we'll see what happens. I've been known to vote and reason pretty weirdly. (voting is much weirder)

[Beefster]

[IC]Generally, it is a good idea to read the thread to make sure a RV is appropriate before posting a random vote.[/IC]

VOTE: Kayi for this blatant alignment fishing question.

I find this response interesting. It seems to be making a lot out of nothing. (What was that, Strawmanning? Or was that making a lot

into

nothing? Ahg, I'm so rusty.)
Why did you think this to be true, Beefster? To me, it read as a kind of icebreaker, I suppose, which I've seen in a few other Newbie Games I've been reading. Nothing unusual.

Yes, it's essentially an icebreaker. I don't want us to waste much time on RVS. Or the RQS.

It's like the loaded "are you excited" question that I've never been a fan of. It's supposed to fish for power roles.

Might I ask why you think that question is loaded?

It can be interpreted in almost any way. Based on someone's answer, you could make a conclusion that appears logical, while in reality, it has no logic to it. (I guess that isn't quite the definition of a loaded question)

Specific to the "are you excited to play?" question: It tells you one of 2 things: the player is nothing more than excited to play or the player has a power role. It's inconclusive, so using it to scumhunt is absolutely ridiculous.

Regarding the question Kayl asked: It's not only an irrelevant question, but players might respond differently based on their alignment. Most people, especially scum, would say they prefer to be town to avert suspicion. Or one could use any "scum" response to mean that you are scum. Honestly, I think that sort of question belongs in general discussion, not in a game. If you try to use it for game purposes, it won't work.

[Beefster]

Check out my past games. Notice how weirdly I change my vote in general. I have meta to back it up.
I'm throwing the fact out there so it doesn't surprise you all later.

[Beefster]

@Beef - I've said that I wanted to test the question. I now don't get why you said it was blatant alignment-fishing and now you're saying it's irrelevant. You first voted for me because of the alleged alignment-fishing and now you seem to be keeping your vote because the question is irrelevant. While you've also claimed that you don't like this questions. That one thing still stands where everything around it gets blurry to me.
Again, I said that there is a possibility that one's preferences and the reason behind them influence one's way of playing the game. If you guys have told me that this isn't true, because you've seen this somewhere else, I have no reason to not believe you. I've never claimed not believing you. It's not an hypothesis I've claimed to have proven. It's not something I claimed I'll stick with throughout the game - more like "let's wait and see." Nothing more. I gave many reasons to my question though.

It's early in the game. I really don't see why my voting patterns (at this point) are such a big deal. Typically at the start of the game, votes mean nothing. As the game goes on though, they start to become more meaningful. So if a 0 is a random vote and a 10 is a cop-sure vote, where I'm at is about a 1.

More than anything, I did want to get discussion going. Didn't I succeed on that?

Yes, indirectly.

I've read some of your posts on other games and they didn't do anything either way. This particular pattern of voting struck me as weird when some others didn't. By the pattern of voting, I mean the fact that you unvoted and voted again, and the reasoning behind these actions. I'm not sure of what I think about trying to back up things with Meta. Again, seems like an escape route that could perfectly work for a lot whether you're scum or not, but more likely to be used when evidence of being Town can't be found within the game.

Understandably, the unvote/vote in one post is scummy. I'm not going to argue with that. It was bad play on my part and I should be better than that, especially as an IC.

On a very unrelated note.... lowercase i at the end of my username. Kay

i

.

Ah sorry. Linux smooths out fonts, so when text is bold, i's and l's are hard to distinguish.



@Mastin: Well, this type of reasoning I can understand. But it doesn't mean that it indicates the truth. According to your post, we've agreed with voting for Beef. I mean, his RVS vote way before my question, my joke suspicion, and way after that, my actual vote. You suspect Beef as well, for the same reasons I do. There's also the fact that we don't like the the RVS. You agree with that as well, and I don't think it has anything to do with the actual game. But that's it when it comes to agreeing. He's defended me, and only he can answer exactly why. Whether he believes in my innocence or just that none of my actions have been scummy to him, I can't tell. If he's scum and has his own reasons for defending me, I still can't tell. He hasn't been the only one to speak in my favor. And I don't recall any attacks on him I could have defended. I can only say that I'm town, and I have no clue or suspicion of Neruz's alignment. Nothing much I can say after this.

Btw, the forum I'm playing in is a non-mafia one. PostSecret Community, if you must know, under the same username. I'm not sure the Games section is open to non-registered users though.[/quote]

[Beefster]

Disregard that last part. I forgot to delete it.

[Beefster]

It's just me quoting Kayi BTW.

[Beefster]

I don't want us to waste much time on RVS. Or the RQS.

Then why did you put a random vote in at all?

Tradition, habit, for fun. I never expect it to last more than 2 days and it's harmless, so I just go for it.

[Beefster]

@Beef: Weird voting patterns are weird no matter the stage of the game. If your vote on me was mostly random the first time, why did you retire it at all? And then reinstate it? When I first read it, I thought it was a total RVS vote, but your actions made it seem more serious to me. To the rest of it I have nothing else to say other than your defense still seems really weak to me . I'll proceed to rest my case and keep my vote, unless something huge happens that convinces me of your non-scumminess.

Why do you insist on dwelling on this? Find something new to accuse me of. It's not a big deal.

At first I did it without thinking. Then 2 guys came along and made some pretty valid points that made me think, so I unvoted. But then Neruz came along and reminded me of why I found it scummy in the first place, so I revoted. It's exactly what it looks like.

But since you continue to dwell on this, I'm starting to become legitimately suspicious about you. I'm not liking how you have reacted to votes that were more or less testing for reactions. Your defenses don't come off as genuinely townie- more as deflecting suspicion. (and to some extent, reflecting suspicion back at me)

[Beefster]

@Mastin, Trendall, and Mujex: Who is your biggest suspect? Why aren't you voting?

Of these three, I'm most wary of Mastin. How can he possibly not have a clear cut opinion after all these walls of text?

FoS: Mastin

[Beefster]

@Mastin: tl;dr (don't do this, kids. I'm a hypocrite)
I'm an engineer. Concise. To-The-Point. Complete. (Though it's a little different when I make stuff) I couldn't write more than 5 pages of a story if I tried. Though I do spend a lot more time on posts than I should need to.

@Kayi: your case is the same as it's ever been. Nothing has changed. Nothing has been added. I'd hardly call it solid.

[Beefster]

@Beef

Did you think

alignment

fishing was legit scummy?

Not so much the alignment part of it. That's good. The fishing is what I have problems with. Those kinds of questions can be used in all sorts of fallacious ways. If you said you liked being Mafia, I could take that to mean "You must be scum then," but I could also take it to mean "You must not be enjoying this game. You are obviously town."

The only kind of fishing I ever agree with is reaction fishing, which is essentially what my play revolves around in the early game. It's risky, yes, but it can sometimes get better information than being more... uh... passive.

[Beefster]

L22: Is there any reason why you aren't voting? You seem to have your suspicions. Why aren't you using your most powerful tool? (I don't care where, just use it.)

FoS: L22

[Beefster]

Vote's going back on Beefster. I was waiting to see how he was going to react to L22's pushing, apparantly he's decided to not read L22's posts and not react at all.

VOTE: Beefster

FOS: Kayi

If L22 has a vote, that was the hammer. Good job.

I'm a vanilla townie.

I use risky tactics such as pressure voting and reaction fishing. I tend to suspect everyone, and everyone tends to suspect me at some point. I've been lynched in nearly every game I've played in.

This will be my last time in a newbie game. I don't seem to be good at this "teaching" thing. I'm even worse at being a good example player.

[Beefster]

Oh hey i miscounted, Beefster's at L-2. That makes his 'claim' post even

less

likely.

Explain.

[Beefster]

Sorry for the disappearance. To be completely honest, I'm not all that interested in this game. I thought ICing would be cool at first, but I lack motivation to play this same setup over and over. I don't want to replace out or flake because ICs are hard to come by. However, this will probably be my last newbie game ever.

Mastin's a better SE than I am an IC, anyway. Listen to his advice.

unvote

VOTE: Trendall
You've flown under the radar too long. Do something useful. (yay, hypocrisy!)

[Beefster]

I thought I was put at L-1 or hammered, honestly. IIRC, Trendall had a vote on me for a while, as did L22's predecessor.

@Mastin: I like the teaching aspect, but I find explaining myself and being an example player to be a challenge, as I have a strange playstyle and I get my poor explanation powers from my dad. Then the aforementioned repetition gets to me.

[Beefster]

You'll have to forgive me Beef; i don't believe a word of it.

This won't be the first time.
I swear what I have said in defense is absolutely true. I'm a simple vanilla townie. Lynch someone else. (<-- generally not the best strategy, but trying to survive increases the chance of your faction winning. It's just as valid for a townie as it is for scum)

[Beefster]

Whether or not he is scum, which yes I find to be a possibility of him as much of everyone except for myself, if he has given up on defending himself there's no need to keep him around. "If thy hand or eye offend thee, remove them from thyself; tis better to enter into paradise maimed than to bear the sin in hell." Yes I've left the hammer vote open to be made, but I still have suspicions of Yen, L22's been on my list to watch as of recently, as well as Jay and Kayi. Trendall's not posting I don't see as an issue yet, and due to my own earlier inactivity out of respect I cannot hold that against him as that'd make a hypocrite out of me, but so far I've not gotten any vibes from his posts yet.

I'm not liking the tentativeness and fence-sitting.
[IC]Often times, leaving openings for later, such as this, is a tool employed by scum. Frequently, tentativeness and fence-sitting leads to the perception of scumminess.[/IC] Although, when I play, I try to take on multiple perspectives throughout the game so that I can try to understand the picture as a whole- and this can sometimes be seen as scummy, as well as leading to frequent vote changes.

unvote

VOTE: Mute

[IC]Never be afraid to use your vote as I have done. It is the most effective tool for catching scum, and you don't have to be cop-sure to make a vote. Nothing is finalized until the hammer falls[/IC]

[Beefster]

@Mastin:
I'm switching my vote for pressure and reaction fishing. (same as previously) It's very useful later on.
I didn't get much of a reaction from trend, so I switched again, also not remembering where I had my vote before.

[Beefster]

I'm switching my vote for pressure and reaction fishing. (same as previously) It's very useful later on.

Alright, then. 1: What reactions have you gotten so far?

Mostly negative ones condemning me for my actions.

2: "Fishing" is something you've called bad before. "To get reactions" is fine, but "reaction fishing" sounds like it's more subtle, and less direct--you know, like the other two that you've called bad, alignment and rolefishing? Do explain.

I said earlier that the only fishing I agree with is reaction fishing.

3: You're being lynched. You're at L-1. Explain how this information can be useful later on, if you're currently at a very real risk of being lynched.

You can refer to what dead players said about others after knowing what they flipped. For example, if a cop dies, you may try to look for breadcrumbs in attempt to find who they investigated and what the result was. In my case specifically, you can look at how people reacted to my play, questions, pressure votes, and and use that to piece together a useful case.

In the case that you lynch someone else, though, the information is just as valuable, minus the flip.

[Beefster]

The only kind of fishing I ever agree with is reaction fishing, which is essentially what my play revolves around in the early game. It's risky, yes, but it can sometimes get better information than being more... uh... passive.

[Beefster]

FoS: Trendall

That post reeks of OMGUS and fluff. (Mostly fluff)

[Beefster]

Exactly- It's more about the reason. OMGUS is voting for someone specifically because they voted for you. It doesn't have to be the only reason, but it has to appear to be a contributing factor. I don't really see any good reason you're voting for me, and to me, it looks like you're coattailing off everyone else's reasoning and using that as an excuse for your real intentions.

It's okay to vote someone who voted you as long as that isn't part of the reasoning.

[Beefster]

It's disconcerting how little attention you're paying to the game.

This is a null tell.

[Beefster]

@ Beef: I'm not sure if this is actually useful, but how could you forget who your vote had been on when that was what started everything on you?

I'm not sure about you, but I have a life outside of mafia. I usually pop in once after school and make a few posts in each of my games. I don't have that great of a memory and I'm far too lazy to look back at previous posts.