Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[Zhero]

/confirm

[Zhero]

Vote: lewarcher82

continuing the chain

[Zhero]

Don makes a good point, and lewarcher's reaction in interesting.

Saporovirus, why two rvs votes?

[Zhero]

Why do you address this question only at saporovirus? don also did (though he explained it) as did mallow and lewarcher. And speaking of which, why did these two people make two RVS votes?

Don's and mallow's votes were apparently serious, and I'd already mentioned lew.

Because I wanted to make a Hunter S Thompson joke.

Cool.

[Zhero]

The only reason I voted lewarcher was to humor Don.

unvote

I hate the rvs.

So, you vote to humor don, but once he fleshes out his case you unvote?

Do you disagree with his case?

His posts are really odd and stilted. He's trying too hard to be silly/ likeable, which could just be a noob thing. PRESSURE!

UNVOTE: XENOPHON
VOTE: CONSIG

Agreed.

Unvote. Vote: Consigliere

[Zhero]

Unvote

Yeah, Consig's probably just confused.

More Zhero votes.

more votes on Consig, please

See, it's this kind of poor play that loses games for town all the time.

What's the difference?

What about Zhero? Notice how he stopped posting once I called him out.

It was only a day there, real life prioritized more than I expected.

Hey, don_johnson, xenophon, come back!

implosion and saporovirus looking town, werewolf555 and mallowgeno looking iffy, but Powerrox is the most interesting right now. 5 posts, 0 content. Powerrox, who's scum?

Vote: Powerrox93

[Zhero]

Yeah, for reference, check out post 40.

[Zhero]

Zhero seems to need to place some more reasoning on his vote.

Like I said, 5 posts, no content. At the time we had less from him than we did from Consig in the same number of posts, yet less attention was paid. As Gonzoooo points out, the quicker an early bandwagon forms, the more likely it is to be scum-pushed, so I felt the more ignored

i may move to the gonzo wagon. i am going to reread to see if this is necessary. lew's response has been acceptable. powerox: if you don't understand the words i write then there is nothing i can do about it. i can agree to disagree with you.

It does look like you're testing the waters here, supporting a possible wagon without actually committing to it.

[Zhero]

post 72. even worse sheeping. i think mallow's explanation, though thin, was certainly not "scummy". the jump on consig is odd. so zhero agrees that consig is "noob"? he agrees that we should "pressure" him? what good does it do to pressure a noob? only possible thing that comes from that is that the noob weaves his own lynch. do we get a bandwagon to analyze day 2? yes. but wouldn't it be more fruitful to pressure and/or lynch scum? indubitably.

How are we so certain that a player is noobish unless we get content worth looking at? I was agreeing with the intent of saporo's post, to attempt to pull content from a lurker.

If I knew who scum were in advance to pressure them, the game would be a bit easier. Why are you so certain that Consig is town? His poor play is not a scumtell, but neither is it a towntell.

zhero 108 is another example of "oppurtunistic" with the implication of suspicion on dj. ox answered your question. yet you don't respond to it or move your vote.

Dissapearing for 4 days and then firing off a couple quick one-liners seemed distant enough from your previous play to be worth mentioning. It's good to see more analysis from you here. I'd honestly forgotten powerrox even responded, there was so little there.

Powerrox, do something. Make a case, place a vote, take a stance, something!

I don't know if Gonzoooo's repetitive... assuredness is accidental or if he's scum who knows everything and is trying to look good.

Honestly, it reads like a personality tell to me.

mallow, any insights on the game?

3) about ZHERO: yes, zhero is in fact acting in a jumpy and acritical way which is scummy. Also, his contribution to the game is minimal (which is bad), andif he is town he is playing a poor performance. On the other hand, my reading of Gonzo in 106 is more alarming, to me, than zhero's attitude, to the point that I would say that one of them is extremely likely scum. My bet is on Gonzooo.
4) about SMASH: good job. I had almost missed that post. Which is opportunistic and scummy. Since smash jumps on consig, he may very well be a scum partner to either one of Gonzo/Zhero.

I'm confused, "either one of Gonzo/Zhero" seems like a weird false dichotomy to me. Why the split?

My contribution is better than some, and I'm honestly not sure what I've done to be considered 'jumpy'. Me being 'extremely likely scum' is coming out of nowhere here, since this is literally the first time you've mentioned me, as opposed to my apparent counterpart Gonzoooo whom you've given many posts worth of analysis.

[Zhero]

i don't recall saying consig was town or implying "certainty" in that direction.

Then why is it bad to pressure him for information?

There is absolutely no benefit to using weasel words like, "I think " or "probably". Tell me, who are you more likely to listen to? The guy who says, "Zhero is scum" or the guy who says, "Zhero is probably, maybe scum". And tell me who you think of those two is more likely to be scum leaving themselves backdoors to distance themselves from their opinions. I believe what I say and thus am not afraid to state my opinion definitively.

Eh, I still maintain that wording like that is largely a personality tell.

Because it feels like everything in this game has its origins from the smilegate thing that I don't understand at all.

The Consig wagon? Werewolf's odd jump on it, and weird play in general? Lew's case on Gonzoooo? Mallow's and your own lack of content?

Smiliegate is old news now, are we even reading the same game?

[Zhero]

Ah, hmm.

Unvote

This is becoming sort of a quiet game.

zhero, please pay attention to context. it was my understanding that you agreed with the idea that consig was a noob. pressuring a noob is not very fruitful as they generally tend to weave their own lynches. if consig is scum, then thats a good thing, but pressuring him because he's a noob is more likely to produce a mislynch. if you actually think he's scum, then by all means, pursue the case. thats not what i saw happening, and i tend to think that gonzo saw the same thing.

My original post could have been better worded there, sorry for the confusion.

[Zhero]

Zhero, a question, out of curiosity and absolutely irrelevant. Do you usually unvote if the player you are voting asks for replacement? I mean, as far as I see, if you consider someone scummy, you must necessarily assume that his behaviour was conditioned by his role. Which will remain the same after replacing.
I just ask because I normally do not unvote in such a case.

Depends on the situation. In this case, I was suspicious that his noncommittal stance in the game was an attempt to active lurk, but replacing out possibly indicates that he actually just didn't have a handle on the game, for whatever reason.

[Zhero]

Hey Admiral, thanks for replacing!

Mallow, thoughts on the game?

[Zhero]

Hello Purple Orange, thanks for replacing in!

I've been sort of back and forth on lew, and Admiral's case lays it out better than I'd seen it. I like Lew's response to Orange, not so much his response to Admiral.

Mallow and werewolf continue to be good places for votes, though I'd like to actually hear something from mallow first.

[Zhero]

Hmm, I smell a bus.

Vote: mallowgeno

Mallow, what do you think of Lew?

[Zhero]

I think Zhero's nonsensical voting stinks completely. Why you wouldn't push the person you think is scum and has the bigger wagon is beyond me...unless you're trying hard to stay off the wagon. That's scummy regardless of werewolf's alignment.

I think adding my vote to the werewolf wagon would've been a bad idea since he was L-1 at the time... I don't feel we've exhausted the day's conversation yet. Why are you mad at me for not quickhammering?

In addition to that, I get a scummier vibe from mallow than I do from werewolf. The bus feel comes from the fact that a scummy player gets pushed to L-1 by another scummier player for little reason. Mallow's recent response (or lack thereof) only firms by belief that he is the better wagon.

EBWOP: trying hard to stay off the wagon while still pushing it with vocal support

Do you think town is incapable of reading beyond votecounts? I agree with the werewolf lynch as I've stated I do, but I only have one vote.

Apparently whatever I say won't be taken seriously, therefore I refuse to answer. (oooo scummy)

Agreed, this is pretty scummy.

[Zhero]

My belief that mallow is scum was poorly elaborated, and for that I apologize. I have a bad habit of assuming people know what I'm thinking.

As far as mallow goes, there is not a lot of content from him, and what there is is largely prestated by others first. He manages to avoid making a case or placing his vote anywhere for over two weeks, and when he does it's to jump on to an active wagon that most players have expressed interest in. It's a relatively safe vote with little behind it, and while I suspect it to be a last-minute bus, even if werewolf is town it's not indicitive of good play.

As far as early claiming goes, I disagree that it's a good scumtell. While scum is more invested in 'looking town' than town is, scum is quite likely also aware of the norm that claiming early is scummy, and thus likely to avoid it. It reads more like a textbook tell to me, which is weak in any practical sense.

The early claim is anti-town, and can add to a case against an already scummy player like werewolf, but for someone like mallow (who expressed absolutely no suspicion of werewolf even though his wagon has been an important poart of the game) to suddenly latch on to that as a reason to bandwagon strikes me as scum trying to latch onto an easy lynch.

While I still agree with the case against werewolf, I prefer this case against mallow, and as such have no reason to vote for the weaker case. I hope this clears up my thought process there.

However today would be a really bad day to bus one's scumfriend...

This seems like an enigmatic thing to say. Could you elaborate?

Now, ask yourself why Zhero-town would vote for a lesser wagon even though he apparently thinks werewolf is scum? Does not compute.

Zhero-town would definitely vote for the lesser wagon if he liked the case better. I know it's WIFOM and blah blah, but Zhero-scum would've happily stuck with the werewolf wagon, regardless of his alignment. He'd either be bussing an already suspect partner or firing off a lynch the town seems to agree with. What's Zhero-scum's motivation to stray from the beaten path?

@ zhero: I don't think your explanation for your actions in post 217 adds up.

I'd be happy to further clarify if I knew what didn't add.

I think he could be town. Not 100% sure though. Leaning town.

What do you think of Lew?

I think he's likely to be town. He seems more interested in scumhunting than strictly defense, and raises good questions, though I think his case on Gonzoooo was mostly semantic.

I also think your response is incredibly generic, and leaves room to backpedal if need be.

OK, Zhero is a L-2. I'm a bit worried at how fast this has come up.

I was a bit surprised too. It's a wagon worth analyzing, at least.

@Zhero if you thought it was bussing, why not mention in your post that you would be willing to hammer werewolf? you completely ignore the werewolf wagon, rather than saying that you support them both, but want the day to continue?

I hope I answered your questions above. I'd prefer a mallow lynch, but a werewolf lynch could be more informative in the end.

Also, I didn't realize until just now how close we are to deadline. My mind was a week off there.

[Zhero]

Sure, with only 3 days left, I may as well claim now. L-1 is effectively eminent anyway.

I am the Role Cop.

[Zhero]

Holy crap, lew is town as hell here.

regarding the lynch: IF THERE IS A REAL COP; HE MUST NOT CC. I suggest we lynch werewolf and hope zhero is not genuine. If zhero will not die, we will analyse his report tomorrow and decide what to do. If he dies, we will analyse the wagon.

This is all good advice, and exactly what should be done in this situation.

claiming role cop is a terrible move anyway. there are no roles able to protect you. If you are legit, you die tonight, and the mafia deupty will be able to start looking for the last town pr, who is a vig. is it clear to everyone how this setup works? I never played it, but I studied the rules. Did anyone pay Tit for Tat in the past?

I am aware of the setup, yes. Being at L-2 with another player expressing interest in voting this close to deadline makes it imperative to claim. Under no circumstances should town ever risk lynching the role cop, wasting a lynch instead of forcing scum to burn a night kill. I understand your suggestion to defend myself to the last, but I have already explained myself as best I feel I can.

I'm dead tonight, see you guys later!