Newbie 1032 - Game over - Mafia Win

[Mizzy]

/confirm

[Mizzy]

I would prefer we stick with a random laning phase because I think it generates more useful information than questions do. As much as I enjoy getting to know newbs, I also like playing the game because the purpose of these games is to teach, yes? So, let's teach!

Random votes are important because they allow us to see reactions to votes and will hopefully supply us with insight later.

So, votes. RVS or no?

[Mizzy]

Re: "random laning phase" I mean "random voting phase" :p Sorry, League of Legends on the brain.

[Mizzy]

Because I choose not to? I feel that the questions are better served in the General Discussion thread and not here. Just personal preference. Also, I don't feel that vote of yours was random.

[Mizzy]

Being prodded has nothing to do with alignment because my job has nothing to do with the game. And my job, sadly, comes first :p

Firstly, avatars are important on the site so I do request that you choose one, coppro. It will help those you play with immensely.

As for the haikus, I do find them mildly annoying because the point of posts and content is to help us determine your alignment. If we cannot do that because the amount of content is nil, then it hurts the game.

As for the questions, I am not going to answer them. If you want to know about me, go look up my wiki page.

The amount of votes someone has this early in the game is a red herring. Vote count has nothing to do with alignment. In fact, voting based on anything but scumhunting helps no one but scum. Also, quadz08 is right that answering a question about what you would/would not do as scum is a terrible question for a game, especially after it has started.

Isn't WIFOM only a bad thing when you don't realize it and you end up chasing rabbits/herrings? As long as you recognize it as WIFOM and take it to be a null-tell then there should be no harm. And since you made that clear to all of us, I don't see why you can't answer the question because you've already established your waiver of plausible deniability.

No, WIFOM is bad all the time because it is a distraction and causes problems with read-throughs later down the line. There are no waivers of plausible deniability in these games.

[Mizzy]

No vote because I don't feel I have enough information to really vote anyone. It is still page 2. It's no longer random voting stage, so that's out. I'll vote when I feel it's appropriate

[Mizzy]

I believe that answering those questions doesn't help us scum hunt in the slightest, feel they are a distraction, and won't answer them. Sorry! If you have any questions related TO THIS GAME then I will gladly answer them

[Mizzy]

I definitely don't think we ought to scum hunt based on arbitrary crap from outside the game. We could easily unvote and declare a NEW RVS to see if anything comes of it. Thoughts?

[Mizzy]

psssst. this is the part where everyone is supposed to vote mizzy.

Shit like this is incredibly anti-town and I am amazed someone playing as long as you, Rhino, would even do it in a newbie game. Give a concrete case or don't bother.

[Mizzy]

Honestly, I think he's being dumb. He has not presented a case and is just mudslinging. Right now, he's on my scum radar.

[Mizzy]

Then after this post I'm a bit torn, I think telling people who to vote for is a bit suspect, like you have some sort of agenda to push. However... mizzy... feels like she is treading a bit too carefully. She called for a RVS, but then doesnt vote. And then mizzy declares the end of the RVS herself for whatever reason.

The moment someone votes for a non-random reason, RVS is over. That's kind of just how it works. At that point, theoretically, someone has found a reason to stop the RVS and move on to real scum-hunting. Since a non-random vote happened very early, RVS ended very early.

And finally, a defensive statement from mizzy asking for concrete evidence before voting (which she should know is next to impossible D1), but in the same post she launches a personal attack (essentially calling rhino dumb) - perhaps to get some attention off herself?

There is plenty of concrete evidence one can find D1. On P3? Perhaps not, but posting stuff like Rhino has been is something that an IC should know better than to do. He's supposed to lead by example and his example right now hasn't been the best. You do not just randomly call for a bandwagon...we all know who bandwagons help in the long run and it ain't town...and you should know that defensive statements in this game do not take attention away, they generate it. I don't mind attention being on me as long as people are scumhunting and not allowing themselves to be distracted. Each and every one of us need to be scrutinized to find the scum, so definitely scrutinize me...just don't do it for the wrong reasons.

[Mizzy]

Wow, Rhino, I thought I'd get some made-up shit from you but I didn't expect pure wrong information, either. Let's get to it, shall we?

Alright, so Mizzy is for real scum then. I can roll with that.

The only way you could know my alignment is if you are scum. Period. Beyond that, it's all speculation.

iso #1 - First part of this post is IIoA, information instead of analysis. It means basically posting a lot of stuff (information) to look active, but not doing any real analysis on it, or scumhunting in any way. Its pretty much going to be in every one of her posts.

So, like every single one of yours up until this point? Yeah, you're guilty of it too, so don't be a hypocrite.

In addition, not answering the random questions is fine, but suggesting random voting and then not doing it yourself is really scummy. You seem to be only willing to do it if everyone else gives you the OK, which is bad because it seems like you're only trying to not be scummy, rather than find scum.

By the time I actually got back to the game once it had started for real, someone (YOU) had already made a non-random vote (#35). I even asked you if it was random or not and you admitted that it was not. I'm not going to random vote after the RVS has ended unless we concluded that we were going for RVS again.

I'd like to once again point out that it was you that ended the RVS and you that started the distraction of ridiculous meta questions.

iso #3 - "Because I choose not to? " - Mizzy's answer for why she didn't random vote, which is scummy because its not an answer.

Wrong. That was why I wasn't answering your stupid meta questions, not why I wasn't voting.

iso #4 - "Being prodded has nothing to do with alignment because my job has nothing to do with the game." - scummy paranoia; no one suspected mizzy for being prodded, this comment was unwarrented.

I felt that (#43) was attacking me for being prodded, so I responded. So, no, it was not unwarranted.

The rest of this post contains no scumhunting, only IIoA. Information about avatars, posting style, theory questions, # of votes, and wifom. Mizzy did not vote, question anyone, or suspect anyone.

It was page 2 where I had just come back from a prod and had time to only re-read that page. I'm not going to vote someone until I feel it's worth doing so...that's just me. I had no one to question or any suspicion to do anything with. Page. 2.

"The amount of votes someone has this early in the game is a red herring. Vote count has nothing to do with alignment." - coppro was the one who voted based on the vote count. Mizzy didn't mention coppro specifically, or give an opinion for whether he was scummy for what he did. So it comes off as a more experienced player coaching a newbie scum partner.

It's a newbie game in which I am SE. We SHOULD be coaching everyone on how to play and what to do/not do. Like you should be, but aren't.

"No, WIFOM is bad all the time because it is a distraction and causes problems with read-throughs later down the line. There are no waivers of plausible deniability in these games." - So lemme get this straight. Theory questions belong in MD and we should random vote instead, but you don't want to random vote or scumhunt but instead entertain a theory discussion about wifom? Not to mention that this discussion arrose from my question that you claimed was pointless, belonged in the MD, and refused to answer.

I was answering a question given to me, Rhino. Should I just ignore questions that might be pertinent to the game? I refused to answer ONLY your stupid meta crap questions. But whether or not WIFOM should be courted in a game (specifically this game) is pertinent to this game and so I will address it here.

iso #5 - "No vote because I don't feel I have enough information to really vote anyone. It is still page 2. It's no longer random voting stage, so that's out. I'll vote when I feel it's appropriate" - Mizzy is waiting for others to scum hunt and not doing it herself. She is waiting for an opportunistic reason to place a vote, rather than scumhunting for a reason, or even using her vote for pressure.

I don't even know where to start ripping this one apart, it has so many holes. Why in the world would I ever wait for an opportunistic reason to place a vote? Ever? Why would I ever vote without a case? I wouldn't. Don't color my actions with your own crayons...they don't mean what you think they do. And what pressure would ONE VOTE cause? None. Pointless. I will vote when I fully believe that someone is scum and back it up with a case. One with real reasons and not voodoo.

iso #7 - "We could easily unvote and declare a NEW RVS to see if anything comes of it. Thoughts?" - IMO, the scummiest thing she's said and the reason I said everyone should be voting her now. The whole point of the random voting is to move away from random voting into the actual game. Scum like to hide in the RVS because they don't really have to do anything, and if everyone is just going along randomly, no one is really scumhunting.

And again, Mizzy suggests something, and waits for town approval first before acting. Still trying to "not be scummy" and no interest in finding scum.

Now you're just plain reaching, Rhino. YOU fucked over the random voting stage, and I put forth an idea on how to fix it. Yes, YOU fucked it. Good job. How could I "hide" in RVS when I'm offering the idea that we simply start a new one? Are you so scared of the idea that we start over with data or are you going to fuck that one up, too?

iso #8 - "Shit like this is incredibly anti-town and I am amazed someone playing as long as you, Rhino, would even do it in a newbie game. Give a concrete case or don't bother." - why is what I'm doing anti-town? You don't get to just declare something anti-town or bad play without explaining why.

Also, it is incredibly scummy to dismiss suspicions because no "concrete cases" were presented. Concrete cases rarely exist, and there is no burden of proof that must be met before lynching someone anyways. If a concrete case were required, lynches would be rare, and mislynches would never happen.

No, it is HARDLY scummy to suggest we not lynch someone (or consider voting/bandwagoning them) without concrete cases. This above sentence of yours screams, "PFFT, only town need proof to win. I don't."

iso #9 - "Honestly, I think he's being dumb. He has not presented a case and is just mudslinging. Right now, he's on my scum radar." - how am I being dumb? where are examples of me mudslinging? again, you don't just declare something to be the case without justifying it.

Also, if I'm on your scum radar, you now have a reason to vote, yet you still haven't voted me.

Nope, sure haven't. Wanna know why? I haven't seen enough info from ANYONE to vote them yet, but I can still note my suspicion of you based on several concrete points and watch what you do.

iso 10 - "but posting stuff like Rhino has been is something that an IC should know better than to do. He's supposed to lead by example and his example right now hasn't been the best." - yeah this is really bordering on adhom. Rather than responding to the issues being brought up against you, you're calling me out for being a bad IC? please...

There were no issues brought up against me until your *cough* case post.

"You do not just randomly call for a bandwagon...we all know who bandwagons help in the long run and it ain't town..." - This is just plain BS fearmongering. Bandwagons happen on the time. People don't get lynched without bandwagons. Players react to votes because of bandwagons. Bandwagons are a way to scumhunt. Plenty of games start out with a random bandwagon. However, me calling for a wagon on you is not "random wagoning". You're scummy and deserve the wagon.

This is just plain bullshit. There's a major difference between legitimate votes and a bandwagon (note the negative and anti-town connotation on 'bandwagon.')

"I don't mind attention being on me

as long as people are scumhunting

and not allowing themselves to be distracted. Each and every one of us need to be scrutinized to find the scum, so definitely scrutinize me...just don't do it for the wrong reasons." - This is a highly ironic statement, coming from someone who has not done a single lick of scumhunting or even placed a vote.

So Mizzy, there's your case all spelled out.

Everyone else, as I said before, this is the point where Mizzy gets votes. Brief pause at L-1 for a fake claim (due process and what not), then we proceed to hammer and lynch scum.

Your "case" is nothing but sheets in the wind and you want us to call them ghosts? Pfft. If anything, you are showing yourself to be a hypocrite.

And what would you do, Rhino, if I WERE lynched and came up town? What would you all do? Because the only people certain of any alignment are scum and so you all have to accept that no matter how scummy you THINK I am, there is a better-than-average chance that you are wrong. So.

What would you all do if I were lynched and flipped town? Who would you suspect?

[Mizzy]

Oh, also,

FOS: Rhino

[Mizzy]

I will formulate a full response later but to me, this is most important and needs to be addressed NOW.

And this is all blatant fearmongering, and pretty damn scummy. If I pick anyone at random, there is a 2 in 9 chance that they are scum. That is the average. You are no less likely to be scum than that, which is to say you are no less likely to be scum than anyone. So this is just an attempt to excuse your scummy play - classic fearmongering.

Asking us what we would do is just a deflection to get the focus off of you. I thought you said earlier that you didn't mind being the center of attention?

No, it is no such thing at all. It is incredibly important that the entire group think of what happens no matter which way anyone we lynch flips. If a dead person flips scum, who is the buddy? If they flip town, who is guilty of driving the misslynch and why?

Focus on me if you must, but do answer it.

What if you kill me and I turn up town?

[Mizzy]

Today is going to be extremely busy at work (it's a code release day) so I don't think I'll be able to respond until after. As a quick side note, however, I am always emotional about my defenses :p It's just how I roll.

[Mizzy]

V/LoA until Monday, sorry! Holidays kind of crept up on me and now I have a turkey to roast.

[Mizzy]

I'm back! As a side note, I will be on V/LoA from Dec 3 - 6 (going to Texas ) and probably won't have net access/time. I'm still strapped a bit for time now with work being insane (we're having a bit of a retention problem) and so if someone has questions they want answered, can they please re-ask? I'm sorry!

[Mizzy]

Why did you want to have a second RVS?

I feel like we never really had a good start. IMO the RVS ended early with little-to-no information and how the hell are you supposed to get anything from that? So I put it out as an option. I asked for thoughts on it because, even if we did not get a second RVS, it might give us

something

to go on. I am not a fan of scumhunting without that information, it all becomes circular/unfounded logic.

[Mizzy]

I'm actually just grumpy at him right now but not looking at him as scum anymore. I noticed him stalking me as I posted in the other game I am in. That smacks of real scumhunting...I think he wanted to know if I was telling the truth about being busy.

[Mizzy]

@Mizzy: Still no vote? Any suspects or insight? As mentioned before, alot of IIoA coming from you. I think you've defended/explained yourself more or less, so maybe you can get on the offensive!

I really don't vote until I feel confident in the vote but I can tell you that I would love to see more from AzBlueM. She hasn't said enough to give me a read one way or another on her and I'd love to have one...mainly because I see zero connection between here and anyone else and that is rare.

Why are you making up a reason to stop suspecting me?

Don't be ridiculous. I absolutely saw your name on my other game thread as a "viewer" right next to mine as I was posting. That means you were viewing the thread of the other game I am in and I can see no reason you would care at all about that game unless you were in it or checking on me. If you have another reason, share it. Either way, it makes me think you're town.

Doesn't really answer the question. The second part (italics) actually does answer the first question, if I interpret it as "we can't do both because mizzy doesn't want to do questions at all". But if the "Because I choose not to" is not the answer to why mizzy didn't random vote, like she claimed in this post - "Wrong. That was why I wasn't answering your stupid meta questions, not why I wasn't voting." - then I am still waiting for an answer.

Actually, I did answer the questions, just not to you specifically. I did not random vote because by the time I got in and ready to, I felt the RVS was over. I asked which we were doing because the sentiment existed in #15 that we might do something other than RV. I'm not fond of assuming things.

Why is the RVS "information"? Why are serious accusations and votes not also information, or even better information?

And just for the record, how exactly do you define the RVS?

I meant information gotten as a result of an RVS. I do not believe that any real vote from one person to one other is sufficient to start off D1 with. I like seeing everyone's choices and knowing what the "random" basis for the vote was...aka dice, color, name, etc. It's good info for later.

To me, RVS is a full and unbroken round of every player randomly voting one other. It ends when someone votes twice or when a vote is placed that isn't random. Just IMO, of course.

[Mizzy]

Re: A suspect: I have specifically asked for more content from AzBlueM but have seen nothing. Is she on V/LoA and I didn't notice?

Also, I do have a suspect in mind but I am still working on my case post. I hope to get it done before I go.