Mafia 119: MURDER AT HOTEL DEATH(GAME OVER)

[LimMePls]

Hey gang.

I'm thinking the following are scum: CoolDog, Looker, Prana

Lets lynch one of them. My favorite is CoolDog.

When I have some time I'll do an ISO and show the posts I dislike in particular, but there are quite a good number of them.

Vote: CoolDog

[LimMePls]

Unvote, Vote: a2rudeboy

This may go into complete mafia game theory territory, but I have never once

once

once

seen someone Vote/HoS two people in the same post and not be scum.

If Cooldog is scum, lynch a2. If a2 is scum, lynch Cooldog.

I have to agree with the sentiment in this post. I still think we lynch CoolDog first. If he flips scum though, there is a really great target for the vig.

[LimMePls]

@Espeonage: Hate to sound scummy, but what erges you to say that Jack is town. Isn't it a bit early to defend someone? And wouldn't a bandwagon help the town? You are however, correct in saying that not all power roles have post-restrictions and visa versa.

@Jack why do you want to know about post restrictions? It seems like it wouldn't effect you this early on.

Hate to sound scummy!? I bet you do. That statement is so bad. First off, what about those questions make you sound scummy? Second, why do you hate to sound scummy? If you recognize that saying it is scummy, then why say it? Is there a town reason to say it? If so, then why is it scummy? DOES NOT COMPUTE! Also, the question to Jack can be read as role fishing. Why do you want to know what Jack's concern is with post restrictions?

@esp, I feel a good bandwagon coming on. It would help the town if this could go far (not necessarily to a lynch though. However, if you continue to play like you do it might just do so).

vote esp

This reads like a bus to me. How would it help the town if it went far but not necessarily to a lynch? If you think he is scum, why wouldn't you want it to end in a lynch? If you think he is town, why vote him at all?

Why is ESP scummy now? I personally think he is for reasons that I/town have already said earlier.
And Isn't being lurky scummy?

You had been pushing esp as scum the whole of D1 (which is interesting all by itself given the flip) so what exactly was your problem with Vezo agreeing with you? I don't understand why you would push so hard for someones lynch and then start questioning people when they agree with you and start voting.

Are you implying that you and Vez are buddies? fos: Looker. How could he get you killed?
I hate to keep opening up an old wound but Jack is active lurking, but I Don't think he is now worth a lynch over Looker or Esp.

@zwet, why is looker scum?

You called Looker scum. Why do you then question zwet's scum read of Looker?

I am going to look really bad for this, but I woke up really late this morning so I can't give my full reasons, but this above post sums most of my reasons up in his own words. The above is sooo scumy it begs me to vote for him. I'm concerned with how fast this wagon built up so fast though. if he flips town, then look at who is on this wagon, there WILL BE SCUM. for now though he's a good day-1 lynch unvote, vote nero chain (NC) Sorry I can't post any more but I did wake up really late...

You spent pretty much all of D1 calling esp scum, but then at the last minute you help derail that wagon and go after Nero. Explain please. This makes no sense.

I might not be able to post much as of late but, I will be happy to answer all of your questions.

@a2, Well I don't have much time to post yet the prod date is set a 24-hours. If the prod date was a little less strict it would be fine. Having to post content back0to0back days is challenging for my schedule. I also have a lot of trouble keeping up with large games as opposed to small ones. I think this will be the last large game I'll play (unless I play one over the summer...).

I will answer all of your questions to the best of my ability, I am town thus I have nothing to fear.

This post just creeps me out.

Simple, I would like a horror dude lynch, But I would like a Jack lynch over a horror, for his buddy up with esp.
And because no one has yet to put out a case. The only argument for my lynch this day is that I have a tight schedule. I would also like to note that I was always for a esp lynch. If I was scum I wouldn't have bused him so early in the game, and held onto it for so long.

Yes you would. It would only look worse if you bussed him so long and then let it drop without ever brining it up. Once you committed to it you couldn't just give it up. Also, if you were always for an espy lynch, then why derail his wagon at the last minute and vote NC?

I do have to say though, after the ISO and given Espeonage's flip, I'm actually not so sure about CoolDog anymore. It's weird because when I was reading after I replaced in he felt really scummy to me, but now that I ISO, given the espy lynch, it asks a lot of WIFOM about whether or not scum would bus a buddy so hard. However, given the fact that Esp's scum faction had a name, we could be dealing with 2 different scum groups, in which case CD could be scum and still be scum hunting.

[LimMePls]

^^Can you please not respond to things inside the quote block? It defeats the whole purpose of a quote if you change the contents. Some people skip over quotes when they know they've been keeping up with the game.

/pet-peeve.

[LimMePls]

If you think he is scum, why wouldn't you want it to end in a lynch?

Exactly! I did wantt it to end in a lynch, but the wagon stoped, and if you looked back nothing would have kept it moving, thus I saw horror who still looks slightly scummy. So I hoped on his wagon. That in turn got no place, and thus I settled for Nero as a day-1 lynch

.

This statement is contradictory to what you said. You said you wanted the wagon to go far, but not necessarily to a lynch. But you say that you felt he was scum. If you felt he was scum, why would you not want his wagon to go to lynch. You didn't answer this question at all.

Why do you want to know what Jack's concern is with post restrictions?

Because he's role fishing? I wanted an answer to that.

So you felt rolefishing Jack was an apporpriate response to Jack's rolefishing? Explain.

There are multiple situations where you feel the need to attack others for their votes. Calling all of those situations "lack of reasons" is ridiculous. Suppose this situation:

Person A: I think you should buy these widgets. They are really great widgets.
Person B: I'll take two of those widgets there.
Person A: Why are you buying those widgets!? You never said you liked those widgets!
Person B: Uh...

When you make a good case on someone, and others agree and vote with you, why do they have to type out a "case". You've already made the case. The whole purpose of a case is to persuade others that you are right. If you then question everyone who agrees with your case just because they didn't come up with it themselves, you look paranoid/scummy. And what if they'd just typed out a bunch of sentences that was just parroting what you'd already said. Wouldn't that be scummy? Isn't it understood when they place their vote without an explanation that they are being convinced by others to do so? Can't we infer from the above situation, that B is buying the widgets because he agrees with A that they are good widgets? Why does B have to say "Well, you are right. These widgets are awesome, for the following reasons... so I will buy some." That is ridiculous. People don't talk/act this way.

Lastly, I don't like the tone of your response at all. Why do you feel the need to write a sentence that responds to every one of my sentences? If you've already answered one of my points then why do you feel the need to say:

Is there a town reason to say it?

Yes, I think I have answered that above.

If so, then why is it scummy?

Ok, I have answered this many times above...

I don't understand why you would push so hard for someones lynch and then start questioning people when they agree with you and start voting.

read above

You called Looker scum. Why do you then question zwet's scum read of Looker?

really the same as above.

You spent pretty much all of D1 calling esp scum, but then at the last minute you help derail that wagon and go after Nero.

complete repeat question. I will answer it again.

Explain please. This makes no sense.

done, done, and done

that pretty much combined with the other things I have said answers this

Why do you repeat yourself over and over and over, and then try to sound annoyed that you have to do it? You could have just answered my whole paragraphs with a couple of sentences of your own. Instead you answer each of my sentences on its own, which of course leads you to repeat some of my points, and then sound annoyed that you have to repeat yourself. It looks like you are trying to pad your response to make yourself look better.

[LimMePls]

Okay, thanks to the latest interaction... CD, your response there was scummy as hell, and I wont bother repeating the same points as LMP has done, however I think I will need to go have a further look at your posts. If there was an up to date vote count I might vote you at this stage. Hopefully we'll get one by the time I've done my ISO, which will come as soon as I have enough free time in one sitting to do so.

My skin is crawling after this post.

[LimMePls]

I thought I already answered your question at least twice CKD, try reading the game. I'm going throught the mass of vollk's posts right now so, I can't respond more then that.

This is absolutely hysterical. Yesterday CKD answered your question multiple times yet you hounded him demanding that he answer it again. Today CKD asks you a question and this is your response. The height of hypocrisy.

[LimMePls]

@lmp, actually he didn't. Just for the record.

???

[LimMePls]

If you think he is scum, why wouldn't you want it to end in a lynch?

Exactly! I did wantt it to end in a lynch, but the wagon stoped, and if you looked back nothing would have kept it moving, thus I saw horror who still looks slightly scummy. So I hoped on his wagon. That in turn got no place, and thus I settled for Nero as a day-1 lynch

.

This statement is contradictory to what you said. You said you wanted the wagon to go far, but not necessarily to a lynch. But you say that you felt he was scum. If you felt he was scum, why would you not want his wagon to go to lynch. You didn't answer this question at all.

Why do you want to know what Jack's concern is with post restrictions?

Because he's role fishing? I wanted an answer to that.

So you felt rolefishing Jack was an apporpriate response to Jack's rolefishing? Explain.

There are multiple situations where you feel the need to attack others for their votes. Calling all of those situations "lack of reasons" is ridiculous. Suppose this situation:

Person A: I think you should buy these widgets. They are really great widgets.
Person B: I'll take two of those widgets there.
Person A: Why are you buying those widgets!? You never said you liked those widgets!
Person B: Uh...

When you make a good case on someone, and others agree and vote with you, why do they have to type out a "case". You've already made the case. The whole purpose of a case is to persuade others that you are right. If you then question everyone who agrees with your case just because they didn't come up with it themselves, you look paranoid/scummy. And what if they'd just typed out a bunch of sentences that was just parroting what you'd already said. Wouldn't that be scummy? Isn't it understood when they place their vote without an explanation that they are being convinced by others to do so? Can't we infer from the above situation, that B is buying the widgets because he agrees with A that they are good widgets? Why does B have to say "Well, you are right. These widgets are awesome, for the following reasons... so I will buy some." That is ridiculous. People don't talk/act this way.

Lastly, I don't like the tone of your response at all. Why do you feel the need to write a sentence that responds to every one of my sentences? If you've already answered one of my points then why do you feel the need to say:

Is there a town reason to say it?

Yes, I think I have answered that above.

If so, then why is it scummy?

Ok, I have answered this many times above...

I don't understand why you would push so hard for someones lynch and then start questioning people when they agree with you and start voting.

read above

You called Looker scum. Why do you then question zwet's scum read of Looker?

really the same as above.

You spent pretty much all of D1 calling esp scum, but then at the last minute you help derail that wagon and go after Nero.

complete repeat question. I will answer it again.

Explain please. This makes no sense.

done, done, and done

that pretty much combined with the other things I have said answers this

Why do you repeat yourself over and over and over, and then try to sound annoyed that you have to do it? You could have just answered my whole paragraphs with a couple of sentences of your own. Instead you answer each of my sentences on its own, which of course leads you to repeat some of my points, and then sound annoyed that you have to repeat yourself. It looks like you are trying to pad your response to make yourself look better.

The questions in here still haven't been answered.

[LimMePls]

If you think he is scum, why wouldn't you want it to end in a lynch?

Exactly! I did wantt it to end in a lynch, but the wagon stoped, and if you looked back nothing would have kept it moving, thus I saw horror who still looks slightly scummy. So I hoped on his wagon. That in turn got no place, and thus I settled for Nero as a day-1 lynch

.

This statement is contradictory to what you said. You said you wanted the wagon to go far, but not necessarily to a lynch. But you say that you felt he was scum. If you felt he was scum, why would you not want his wagon to go to lynch. You didn't answer this question at all.

Why do you want to know what Jack's concern is with post restrictions?

Because he's role fishing? I wanted an answer to that.

So you felt rolefishing Jack was an apporpriate response to Jack's rolefishing? Explain.

There are multiple situations where you feel the need to attack others for their votes. Calling all of those situations "lack of reasons" is ridiculous. Suppose this situation:

Person A: I think you should buy these widgets. They are really great widgets.
Person B: I'll take two of those widgets there.
Person A: Why are you buying those widgets!? You never said you liked those widgets!
Person B: Uh...

When you make a good case on someone, and others agree and vote with you, why do they have to type out a "case". You've already made the case. The whole purpose of a case is to persuade others that you are right. If you then question everyone who agrees with your case just because they didn't come up with it themselves, you look paranoid/scummy. And what if they'd just typed out a bunch of sentences that was just parroting what you'd already said. Wouldn't that be scummy? Isn't it understood when they place their vote without an explanation that they are being convinced by others to do so? Can't we infer from the above situation, that B is buying the widgets because he agrees with A that they are good widgets? Why does B have to say "Well, you are right. These widgets are awesome, for the following reasons... so I will buy some." That is ridiculous. People don't talk/act this way.

Lastly, I don't like the tone of your response at all. Why do you feel the need to write a sentence that responds to every one of my sentences? If you've already answered one of my points then why do you feel the need to say:

Is there a town reason to say it?

Yes, I think I have answered that above.

If so, then why is it scummy?

Ok, I have answered this many times above...

I don't understand why you would push so hard for someones lynch and then start questioning people when they agree with you and start voting.

read above

You called Looker scum. Why do you then question zwet's scum read of Looker?

really the same as above.

You spent pretty much all of D1 calling esp scum, but then at the last minute you help derail that wagon and go after Nero.

complete repeat question. I will answer it again.

Explain please. This makes no sense.

done, done, and done

that pretty much combined with the other things I have said answers this

Why do you repeat yourself over and over and over, and then try to sound annoyed that you have to do it? You could have just answered my whole paragraphs with a couple of sentences of your own. Instead you answer each of my sentences on its own, which of course leads you to repeat some of my points, and then sound annoyed that you have to repeat yourself. It looks like you are trying to pad your response to make yourself look better.

The questions in here still haven't been answered.

The questions alluded to here that went unanswered are still unanswered.

[LimMePls]

@ CoolDog- Reading comprehension. I didn't vote you, you got a hand of shame, true I expressed desire to vote, but I still see you as a lesser lynch candidate than Jack. Pay closer attention to details = more town.

@Horrordude (from a while ago)- Case based on lurking= flimsy. Case based on active lurking = stronger.

@CKD- Care to elaborate a little on your vote for looker (#659) ? SInce the vote, his responses have surely upped my scumdar, but I was just wondering what it was before then that made you vote him. It appeared out of nowhere to me.

@Jack- I'd still like the answers to my questions. Also, eagerly awaiting that bandwagon analysis.


Let's not hammer until we get the replacements in and get their views on the game

I'm calling CD/a2rudeboy/Looker scum team now.

[LimMePls]

@a2, at least you posted reasons. I consider you to be town. Once I flip town you will be all but confirmed.

@lmp, lets say I flip town, who will the scum teams be?

@all voteing me but vollk, post reasons, thanks for your shameless votes with no reason.

Answer my questions I've now asked you to 3 times and I'll answer yours.

[LimMePls]

ebwop, should read,

@lmp, lets say I flip town who will the other scum team(s) be composed of.

left out the ()..., call it a scum slip if you like, but how could a vanilla townie know that?

More rope.

[LimMePls]

LMP- Is your case still based on the "he voted and HoS in the same post" theory?

I haven't been in the game very long and I've made my arguments against CD very plain. I wasn't the one who brought that post up, I simply agreed with the player who did. I made a huge post listing point by point my case on him. Go read it again.

You scum buddies are really funny.

[LimMePls]

LMP- Is your case still based on the "he voted and HoS in the same post" theory?

I haven't been in the game very long and I've made my arguments against CD very plain. I wasn't the one who brought that post up, I simply agreed with the player who did. I made a huge post listing point by point my case on him. Go read it again.

You scum buddies are really funny.

I was referring to your case on me.

Ya, its based on your interactions with CD plus your play from yesterday.

[LimMePls]

Hello. Just got home and I'm gonna get settled in and do some reading.

Until then, VOTE: vollkan

I will explain.

This had better be good.

[LimMePls]

Vote Curiouskarmadog

Why you ask? Well I watched him last night and he visited Demon who is now dead. Something says to me that he's up to no good. wouldn't you?

Only one problem, watchers see who TARGETS the person they watch, not who the person they watch targets.

Vote: SnakePlissken

[LimMePls]

Unvote

[LimMePls]

I don't like the way this day is heading. I think the huge delay between day 2 and day 3 is making it hard for me to re-engage with this game.

I don't like the vollkan case AT ALL.

It appears the Snake is a watcher. But given the nature of the town "neighborhoods" I'm wondering if watcher might actually be a good scum PR in this game. Thoughts?

[LimMePls]

no...he claimed because of incorrect result from mod. Don't see scum doing that.

Well, he'd already obv breadcrumbed it here:

unvote

Came in late and didn't realise that RV had pretty much finished. I shoule

Watch

out more I guess.

(My bold his caps)

And, IIRC people discussed this D1, so the fact that he is a watcher was out there. Am I misremembering this? Which begs another question, why would the scum leave a claimed watcher alive?

LMP- Is your case still based on the "he voted and HoS in the same post" theory?

@a2rude: Please explain this to me. Because it reads to me like you knew CD would flip town, thus hoping my case on you would vanish.

[LimMePls]

@LMP- How does it read in that way?
I was asking if your case on me was still based mainly on the post in which i voted/fos'd at the same time (a case which i found weak) or if you had picked up new information from other posts which have strengthened your case.

You fos:CD and vote someone else. We all point out how scummy that looks, and that if CD is scum, you probably are too. When we're nearly at a lynch on CD, you come in and ask if that is all the case is on you. Looks like you knew his flip would show town, and you hoped the case on you would go away, because clearly your fos:CD/vote other doesn't look scummy when the person you fos isn't scum.

When I have time, (certainly not now) you'll be getting an ISO, although IIRC it won't take very long.

[LimMePls]

I'm not voting you.

[LimMePls]

Post by post analysis of a2rude

RVS self-vote + admission to lurking.
RVS.
Votes scum. However, enters a wifom loop to get there, and admits its bandwagonning "bandwagongogogo".
This is actually not bad posting.
This is. First prod.
Then prod avoidance.
Actually, more good posting. I hated the HOS along with the vote, but CD has flipped town, so it wasn't distancing from a buddy.
Not much to say here, here or here. I will note that this would have been more scummyness if CD had flipped scum.
Back-tracking when pushed by vollkan.
@a2rude: What is your read of vollkan?
Why is this question just for Snake? Don't get me wrong, it's a good question, but why is it just to snake?
More good posting.
As I've already said, I didn't like this post.
Not sure what this post was about. I'd have to go back and look at context.
I've already stated my opinions on this.
Not a shock.
Pot, the kettle is calling.
Not sure I copy. I'm not voting you. I expressed suspicion over your "vote/HOS" post. I've since said I didn't like the way you came in and were like "is that the only thing you guys are voting me for". It reads like you knew CD was going to flip town, so if you can establish that this is the only reason people are voting you, then when CD flips town, their votes should go away.

I'm not sure what to make of this pbpa. According to my notes I was really down on a2rude, but this read has actually improved my opinion of him a little bit.

[LimMePls]

This game's activity is excruciating.

[LimMePls]

This game's activity is excruciating.

explain

I make posts, come back 12+ hours later and there is like 1 new post. It's frustrating. Is that hard to understand?

[LimMePls]

We really need some direction in this game, I feel completely disinterested. I'll be perfectly honest, I have very little motivation for this game. I only replaced in because Seraph PM'd me and asked me to, and the week+ long night has killed all my enthusiasm.

To top it off, it seems like damn near everyone is just lurking hardcore.

I'm gonna start from page 1 and see if I can get something going.

[LimMePls]

Ok, I've just completed a full (ok, maybe some skimming involved) re-read, I'm pulling out interesting points and commenting on them. Please answer any questions directed at you (via @:your-name).

Okay... what the smeg?

Esp, I have no clue where you're going with your stuff, but it's unnerving me hugely. I'm not voting you now for two reasons:

1 - to make sure that my vote doesn't add to any kind of quick lynch, but let it be known I would be happy with Esp's lynch.

2 - I still feel Jack is somewhat scummy too, and now not just because he seems to be fishing for a post restriction of some kind. But also because it feels like Jack and Esp are backing each other up rather strangely considering nobody else can see the reason from either.

I don't want to come over as a total dumbass in my first proper game.

Don't worry, you will. (And what do you mean my games weren't proper games? Smeg head!)

@Prana: Why were you saying you didn't want to vote because you didn't want to "add to any kind of a quick lynch"? When was the last time you saw a quick lynch in a Large game? Why is this something to be afraid of? Also, why would a quick lynch of someone who you "would be happy with" be a bad thing? I recognize that you sort of answered this here, but I don't find your answer satisfactory, and I wasn't in the game to press you on the issue.

Because for some reason we are the only smart people in the town at the moment.

Town hunting. Great thing to do in a large game as confirmed towns are really powerful when you are looking at interactions later on that revolve around people that are still alive. (i.e. When you have no flip info on the person.)

Up until I get reason to believe he isn't town.

He isn't. But every rvs wagon needs a random counter wagon.

Because the RVS is about placing votes to get reactions. If you play catious from the start the game can get stagnant quickly.

Only buddying if one of us is scum.

Not quite sure. I would say there is one on my wagon and the rest are still random or no votes and are just riding this out for now. I have already said that scum don't like taking risks early, at least they usually don't.

More heavy with sarcasm than when a teenager talks with their parents.

Posts like this make me think Esp-Jack isn't a likely scum team. Why would scum buddy to each other so closely D1, especially when one of them is under a fair amount of suspicion? I'd only expect this from very good scum players who are going for a gambit (ie. "but why would I buddy my partner so obviously") and espy doesn't strike me as good enough to try that gambit. At first, since Esp's flip had a scum team name in it, I thought this doesn't mean Jack isn't scum. However, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that there might just be a single mafia in this game (more on this below). Still something to keep in mind.

How interesting. I have CKD's role as well, but with Pomegranate.

okay...

I'm tempted to believe both of these sets of claims so far. But. I would also hazard a guess that one side of each is mafia else it is looking like massclaim would break the game. I (think I) know seraphim better than that.

I understand that this could open a Pandora's box of WIFOM, but I think Espeonage's reaction to the CKD and Zwet claims is interesting. He is either hinting that the scum are in fact part of the neighborhoods, or he is just sowing suspicion. I'm betting on the latter.

This post from DemonHybrid is win.

Regarding the claims, I'm not entirely sure I believe we have two pairs of joint vigs out there. That would be three kills a night, meaning in the span of two days we could be 8 town down and that's it, pretty much game over. If it turns out they ARE both pro-town, then you've basically told the scum where to begin their targetting (the second claim was even stupider because you could have flown well under the radar with that one).

You say that if there are two vig groups there would be 3 kills a night. How would you know there aren't two mafia groups? Are 1 mafia group Large games normal? I haven't seen one yet.

If we don't lynch curiouskarmadog, SnakePlissken I want you to Watch one of the four claimed neighbor-vigs.

@Jack: This is what I was talking about early this game day. This was on D1 and HD pointed this post out, and then there was a bunch of discussion between HD/Prana/Looker/Vollkan/(others I may be forgetting) on what pointing out the breadcrumb said about alignments. So "Snake-Watcher" was clearly established D1, and he is still breathing. Seems really strange to me.

Okay... thinking things over now I've read what's been said, and here's how I stand:

I accept Jack's been making a play, it's a crappy play by all rights, but checking over it, I will agree it doesn't make him scummy by that alone (that's not to say he isn't scum, but now Vollkan has pointed out it's a gambit I can see where it is coming from, as I do like strange gambits in the early play as well). So I'll buy Jack as town for the time being.

Esp I'm less happy about, it's possible he's pulling another gambit, but it sort of feels like he may have tried tagging onto Jack's gambit to gain points from him, but I'll leave him for now.

The 4 vig-likes... there's a chance one is scum, but if the role name does state how many shots they have or whatever, then holding off announcing it is worthwhile (and I'd advise any docs randomly pick one of them to protect just to be safe), though I would hope people realize where I was coming from with wanting to find out the role name (namely if the role name states there is two of them, rather then one, the claim wasn't needed anyway).

I still don't like that there was a claim, but unlike Vezo I can see that announcing 4 scum as joint vigs would be a terrible play as it only needs two of them to get offed to prove that the rest have to be scum (and if we lynched one today then it wouldn't take long for all 4 to go down). So at best one of those 4 is scum. (I actually think them all being town would be overpowered for the town too, so I feel it's more inclined to be one as scum, or even the second group tagging onto the original claim, as I still stand by that 3 kills a night could destroy the town before the town actually get a chance to truly scum hunt).

Anyway, at the moment Vezo has been bugging me but I can't quite put my finger on it just yet. Need to look over him closer in the next day or two.

For the moment though.

unvote

Will have a quick look over later if I have chance to see if anything stands out.

This is the second time on D1 (that I was counting anyway) where you express a negative view of Esp, but then let it fall away. To make it worse you unvote without voting. I'm not a fan of that, especially in a post where you admit to having suspects. "Esp I'm less happy about". Furthermore, towards the end of D1 you took a pretty clear stance for an Esp lynch once the NC lynch was taking off. I'd like you to elaborate more on all of this please.

@Prana: If Esp is behaving scummy why "leave him for now".

So we have Esp, Looker, and SS for scum so far. One or two more and I'd say we have the entire team

@HD: Same question to you that I put to Prana. This as D1 of a large game. How did you come to the conclusoin there is just one team?

Looker is obv. town, he's pushing people, and pointing out things that need pointing out.

This needs more explaining too. Explain how Looker was "pushing people" because that was not the read I was getting, and explain how pointing out Snake's Watcher claim was good.

@Vollkan: in this post you finally put up your point board. You mentioned earlier in the thread that people get + points for scummy actions and - points for townie actions. How come no one had earned any - points after a full day? You even commented "good posting" after some people's play.

Okay, thanks to the latest interaction... CD, your response there was scummy as hell, and I wont bother repeating the same points as LMP has done, however I think I will need to go have a further look at your posts. If there was an up to date vote count I might vote you at this stage. Hopefully we'll get one by the time I've done my ISO, which will come as soon as I have enough free time in one sitting to do so.

My skin is crawling after this post.

QFT

Hold on... you say how could a vanilla townie know there are scum "teams" instead of a scum team?

I agree, how "could" a VT know that? Surely that is admitting you're not a VT, and instead admitting you know there's two scum teams by accident? The only way I can see you knowing there is two scum teams come day 2 is if you're scum, and you rolecopped the opposing scum team (This happened in a game I modded elsewhere, as Snake will attest to, in fact both scum rolecops rolecopped the opposing team).

So, you're not a VT, and there's no possible town power role that I can imagine allowing you to know there's more than a single scum team out there, so I can only come to the conclusion that you are, as I feel, a scum rolecop (Or scum have a rolecop and you know the results. I know some mods allow day talk too, so no clue if that's the case here, though I know it's not the norm on this site).

This is interesting, considering that on D1 you said "scum team" when there is no way you should have known that there weren't 2 teams, but here you imply that it is scummy for him to say "scum teams" because he shouldn't know that it isn't "team". And, based on the number of kills per night, I'm actually coming to the conclusion that it is a single scum team. Which is the way you put it back on D1.

Snake, did you get a new result?....did you actually watch me or track me?

if you did track me, the question still stands...why did you bother tracking me what did you hope to find?

Right my now correct result is that no one visited you last night. I'm a watcher.

Also, why are being so jittery over being tracked? You outed your kill yourself? Why you so worried I watched you? Something to hide? I am watching everyone in turn until I die to try and find scum. That's the idea isn't it?

This post comes from noob town or genius scum. Given the evidence, I'm going with town-Snake for now. I still find think a claimed watcher living to D3 is pretty remarkable. Also, since you've lived this long and your claim is outed anyways:

@Snake: Who did you watch N1? I assume you got a null response?

Unvote
Vote: PranaDevil

I advise everyone else do the same. He's scum.

I do want to make one other observation. CKD's claim D1 could be a gambit. I dunno what I'd put the odds at, but it's entirely possible he made the claim knowing that he was going to refuse to kill with his partner, his partner would die N1, and then he'd get the kill N2, which is what he claimed the scum could be trying to do. And seeing how events played out (exactly this way, except its his partner dead, not him) we should by no means be calling CKD confirmed town. The scum could also be trying to frame him, as DH pointed out D2, and I'd put his odds at being town around 80% or so, but I don't think anyone should be calling him confirmed.

[LimMePls]

Wake up and smell the PD scum folks.

[LimMePls]

@Prana: Why were you saying you didn't want to vote because you didn't want to "add to any kind of a quick lynch"? When was the last time you saw a quick lynch in a Large game? Why is this something to be afraid of? Also, why would a quick lynch of someone who you "would be happy with" be a bad thing? I recognize that you sort of answered this here, but I don't find your answer satisfactory, and I wasn't in the game to press you on the issue.

Pretty much what I said there, you think I'm going to give a different answer later on? I told you the straight answer there, and that IS the answer you're getting, if you don't like it, I suppose it's tough luck.

As far as why it would be a bad thing though... ANY quick lynch is a bad thing. Discussion is paramount, and I'm honestly shocked I would need to point that out on this site. Over on sites where Mafia is a side game? Yeah, I can understand that, but here?

He was at 4 votes in a large game and you were going to be gone for 24 hours. How on EARTH could you be afraid of a quick lynch? It's preposterous. Your refusal to clarify it from that craptastic response is bad.

You say that if there are two vig groups there would be 3 kills a night. How would you know there aren't two mafia groups? Are 1 mafia group Large games normal? I haven't seen one yet.

Considering the set up, which was pretty much revealed to us early on thanks to piss poor claiming, it makes less sense for two scum teams. But that becomes mod WIFOM stuff etc. I'm not used to large normals in all honesty, so I've no idea if one scum team or two is normal, but I always felt one scum team WAS the norm regardless outside of themed games. Am I wrong on that assumption?

It's looking like you weren't wrong, what I'm challenging is that it was an 'assumption' at all, and not informed minority. You made this comment D1, and I assert there is no way you should have had enough information as a townie to assume 1 scum team.

This is the second time on D1 (that I was counting anyway) where you express a negative view of Esp, but then let it fall away. To make it worse you unvote without voting. I'm not a fan of that, especially in a post where you admit to having suspects. "Esp I'm less happy about". Furthermore, towards the end of D1 you took a pretty clear stance for an Esp lynch once the NC lynch was taking off. I'd like you to elaborate more on all of this please.

@Prana: If Esp is behaving scummy why "leave him for now".

How did I "let it fall away"? I was pushing Esp pretty much non-stop all day 1 in fact. Seriously, go check it over, I was massively pissed off when he wasn't the day 1 lynch. How is that me letting it "fall away"? What you're saying doesn't match up with the facts.

As for the unvote, you'll also note that I wanted to check through the thread as well. I feel leaving a vote on someone at a point you want to check things over to be bad play. If you're not 100% that the vote is on the right person at that point in time, then you should move it, I moved it off entirely, prior to checking through the thread. How is this scummy? Being "overly cautious" is somehow scummy now?

You let it fall away because you brought up suspicions and then did 0 pushing, questioning, or scumhunting of it at all. You'd bring it up, and then move on to other things. You even specifically used the words "leave him for now". The only time you got "massively pissed off" about it was near deadline, and all the hate was moving towards NC. Very easy for scum to sit around at that point and go "but guys, why aren't we voting this guy" who is your scum buddy. I don't like the way you played towards Esp at all, it reads like distancing scum.

Everytime you check through a thread you unvote first? That would be ridiculous. If you don't do it everytime, then why did you do it this time? This is part of what I meant when I said I wanted you to elaborate on this. It looks suspicious.

Looker is obv. town, he's pushing people, and pointing out things that need pointing out.

This needs more explaining too. Explain how Looker was "pushing people" because that was not the read I was getting, and explain how pointing out Snake's Watcher claim was good.

'scuse me? I am now not going to ask you something, I'm going to demand it. Go and tell me where I said pointing out Snake's watcher claim was good.

I repeat, I am demanding you do that, because that's not just a misrep, it's a blatant misrep to a massive degree designed to somehow make me seem worse for it.

As for the rest, please to be paying attention to what I is saying.

Otherwise known as read the next post I made which responded to CKD asking me the same damned thing for crying out loud - http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2509612

It's really simple. You said Looker was pointing out things that needed pointing out. At the time you said it, the thing that Looker had pointed out was the watcher claim. If that isn't what you meant by Looker's "pointing things out" then YOU are the one who needs to explain what you meant. "Pointing things out" is vague, so I had to infer what you meant. And since what Looker was pointing out directly at that point of time in the thread was the watcher claim. It's not a misrep if you don't make yourself clear in the first damn place. Nice try though.

Okay, thanks to the latest interaction... CD, your response there was scummy as hell, and I wont bother repeating the same points as LMP has done, however I think I will need to go have a further look at your posts. If there was an up to date vote count I might vote you at this stage. Hopefully we'll get one by the time I've done my ISO, which will come as soon as I have enough free time in one sitting to do so.

My skin is crawling after this post.

QFT

If you wish to ever actually explain that one, please do so.

I thought it was obv. It reads like this in my head "LMP is making a good case, but CD isn't scum cause I know he isn't, but I'm going to say that I'm going to go read his posts further, so that if I need to push CD as a mislynch I can. I'll even add language about doing the ISO when I 'have enough free time' so no one holds me to it. It'll be really nice to have an updated vote count so I know if this is a really viable mislynch or not". What ever came of "have a further look at your posts"? You never commented on it after this post and before CD's mislynch. Did you never 'have enough free time' for it? You did apparently find time to distance from the CD wagon once it was about to happen here:

More post =/= more content.

36 of your posts there are no content wastes of space... and I was being GENEROUS to you with some of them by allowing one liners that responded to people to not count in my tally (when really there's no content in them either).

THIRTY SIX!

All you've "proven" there is that you have given next to nothing to this game, and are deliberately delaying on providing any information.

Fuck it.

unvote
vote: Looker

CoolDoG will wind up lynched today, but I refuse to accept Looker is doing anything but stalling deliberately. He's done nothing this day phase except ask for a vote count, and now it's been provided he goes V/LA? Bollocks. Nice and convenient I would say.

Also, it's not a 3-4 day absence is it? It's an "until you can be bothered" absence, wich is detrimental to whichever side you are on anyway, if you can't play the game, get the hell out of it and let someone else get in. if this is part of your strategy, then you're scum and need lynching.

Yet somehow, between "I'm going to have to take a further look at CD" and his lynch, we have 7 posts from you and not one mention of that further look into CoolDog. We do have this:

zwet, why are you only commenting on the CoolDoG wagon after it's too late for anything to change? If you felt he was town why didn't you speak up when he was due to be lynched?

Irony, how delicious.

This is interesting, considering that on D1 you said "scum team" when there is no way you should have known that there weren't 2 teams, but here you imply that it is scummy for him to say "scum teams" because he shouldn't know that it isn't "team". And, based on the number of kills per night, I'm actually coming to the conclusion that it is a single scum team. Which is the way you put it back on D1.

Point. Make it.

You're informed scum that knew there was only 1 scum team.

Point. I made it.

Unvote
Vote: PranaDevil

I advise everyone else do the same. He's scum.

If you ever want to give a reason for that one, feel free.

Best ending ever. After an entire post I devote to showing scummy behavior, you're going to claim I didn't give a reason? That is absurd. Nice deflection.

[LimMePls]

I notice you've chosen to ignore my response to your post about me. Any chance of you actually, y'know, posting a response? Perhaps even a case on me considering you're voting me and as opposed to others, might actually be somewhat useful for the town?

Seriously, is everyone in this game insistant on not actually playing the game and just doing their damndest to avoid playing Mafia?

Lol, I was working on it. Nice try though.

[LimMePls]

He was at 4 votes in a large game and you were going to be gone for 24 hours. How on EARTH could you be afraid of a quick lynch? It's preposterous. Your refusal to clarify it from that craptastic response is bad.

Are you suggesting scum are more likely to be more cautious than town then?

No, I'm saying your explanation is nonsense. There should have been 0 worry about a quicklynch if you were going to be gone 24 hours and he only had 4 votes on him.

It's looking like you weren't wrong, what I'm challenging is that it was an 'assumption' at all, and not informed minority. You made this comment D1, and I assert there is no way you should have had enough information as a townie to assume 1 scum team.

So you were of the assumption it was two teams right off the bat were you?

A few questions, seeing as you chose to ignore the one I had asked there, I'll ask that again too:
Is more than 1 scum team normal in a large normal game on this site? This is the first large normal I've played in, and outside of themed games, all games have only had one scum team that I've played on here thus far.

Would scum normally be told if there are two scum teams? In my experience they are only told of their own team, though admittedly the only games I've played on here with two scum teams have been Kise's Square/Enix themed games.

Absolutely I assumed it was two teams. I've been in 1 Large Normal and at least 5 Large themes (that I remember off the top of my head) and in all but 1 there were 2 scum teams (the one had a scum team and a super strong SK). So yes, I'd say more than 1 scum team in large games is standard for Large games.

The scum aren't told there is more than 1 team, but they can use the size of their team and the strength of their roles to easily tell if there is only 1 scum team. For instance, in star wars, which was a 22 player game, we (the Empire mafia) were only 3 players (although all with PRs), so we knew right away that there must be a second scum team out there.

You let it fall away because you brought up suspicions and then did 0 pushing, questioning, or scumhunting of it at all. You'd bring it up, and then move on to other things. You even specifically used the words "leave him for now". The only time you got "massively pissed off" about it was near deadline, and all the hate was moving towards NC. Very easy for scum to sit around at that point and go "but guys, why aren't we voting this guy" who is your scum buddy. I don't like the way you played towards Esp at all, it reads like distancing scum.

Everytime you check through a thread you unvote first? That would be ridiculous. If you don't do it everytime, then why did you do it this time? This is part of what I meant when I said I wanted you to elaborate on this. It looks suspicious.

Go check my ISO of the time frame, I unvoted and then wound up being away for a while. When I can't guarentee to be able to check through the thread instantly, and I want to check through it, then yes, I will remove my vote so if it takes a few days there's no chance of my vote being on a potential bad lynch.

Is this somehow scummy then? Because it to me seems like perfectly logical behaviour.

It looked strange to me when rereading the game, which distorts time a bit. I'll have to go back and look at it. This by itself may not be a sign of scum.

It's really simple. You said Looker was pointing out things that needed pointing out. At the time you said it, the thing that Looker had pointed out was the watcher claim. If that isn't what you meant by Looker's "pointing things out" then YOU are the one who needs to explain what you meant. "Pointing things out" is vague, so I had to infer what you meant. And since what Looker was pointing out directly at that point of time in the thread was the watcher claim. It's not a misrep if you don't make yourself clear in the first damn place. Nice try though.

Pardon?

All Looker had pointed out was the watcher claim? Are we telling lies here? I think we are, considering the post I linked you to was me stating that Looker had pointed stuff out in his previous long post, which, as it happens, was before I pointed out Looker was "obv. town".

Which means not only had I explained what I meant already to CKD, I had also pointed it out to you in that post.

Nice try though.

No you haven't. Try again. What specifically was Looker pointing out that you thought was pro-town?

I thought it was obv. It reads like this in my head "LMP is making a good case, but CD isn't scum cause I know he isn't, but I'm going to say that I'm going to go read his posts further, so that if I need to push CD as a mislynch I can. I'll even add language about doing the ISO when I 'have enough free time' so no one holds me to it. It'll be really nice to have an updated vote count so I know if this is a really viable mislynch or not". What ever came of "have a further look at your posts"? You never commented on it after this post and before CD's mislynch. Did you never 'have enough free time' for it? You did apparently find time to distance from the CD wagon once it was about to happen here:

So what you mean is you made it all up? Gotcha.

LOL. Very cute. No, I didn't make it all up. That is what your words read like. I ask anyone to go back and look at it.

Yet somehow, between "I'm going to have to take a further look at CD" and his lynch, we have 7 posts from you and not one mention of that further look into CoolDog. We do have this:

zwet, why are you only commenting on the CoolDoG wagon after it's too late for anything to change? If you felt he was town why didn't you speak up when he was due to be lynched?

Irony, how delicious.

I felt he was scummy, but felt Looker was more scummy by that point, yes earlier he seemed obv town, but that day he needed to actually do something rather than be as useless as Jack has been all game.

So you appear to dodge the central issue. You said I was making a good case on CD, and that you'd look into it 'if you had time'. 7 posts later (clearly you have time because you are able to make a Looker-scum argument) you still haven't commented on CD. Did you ever do that reread of CD? If not, why did you say you would?

@Everyone else: This is pretty strong evidence of distancing from a CD mislynch. I think it's really scummy behavior, and is enough to swing him all by itself.

You're informed scum that knew there was only 1 scum team.

Point. I made it.

As I said above, from my knowledge (which is two whole themed games) scum aren't even told whether it's 1 team or more than 1 team. So how would scum even know if there was only 1 scum team?

Sense, make some.

Asked and answered. Your assertion that scum wouldn't know there is more than 1 team is hilarious. It's pretty obvious how scum would know.

Best ending ever. After an entire post I devote to showing scummy behavior, you're going to claim I didn't give a reason? That is absurd. Nice deflection.

You didn't give a reason, you posted a lot of stuff that was nothing more than fluff that you have failed to explain WHY any of it is scummy. Why would scum be more wary of a quick lynch than town?

Why would scum unvote before checking the thread but town wouldn't?

You have failed miserably to explain WHY the behavious is "scummy" you've just pointed out a ton of stuff that is essentially "why do you play like that? I don't" and sorry, but I'm not going to bow down and follow your playstyle, I'll play how I choose to play, and I tend to play a bit more cautious than most. But how that's scummy I have no effing clue.

All of this is just completely ridiculous. How can anyone call that post fluff? Simply absurd.

But meh, I'm officially giving up on this game, half of the players aren't even attempting to play mafia, while the majority of the rest have done a vanishing act.

And now you're giving up. This is easy people.

[LimMePls]

^^That is absurd.

If that is the case, then anytime scum starts to get wagon they just fake giving up and they never get lynched.

Why is giving up a town tell?

[LimMePls]

He was at 4 votes in a large game and you were going to be gone for 24 hours. How on EARTH could you be afraid of a quick lynch? It's preposterous. Your refusal to clarify it from that craptastic response is bad.

Are you suggesting scum are more likely to be more cautious than town then?

No, I'm saying your explanation is nonsense. There should have been 0 worry about a quicklynch if you were going to be gone 24 hours and he only had 4 votes on him.

Regardless of whether you believe it to be nonsense (There has been lynches quicker than that elsewhere, hence why I was being safe, ask Snake, he's on the UKFF as well), how is it scummy? If it's not scummy, why is it part of your case?

Absolutely I assumed it was two teams. I've been in 1 Large Normal and at least 5 Large themes (that I remember off the top of my head) and in all but 1 there were 2 scum teams (the one had a scum team and a super strong SK). So yes, I'd say more than 1 scum team in large games is standard for Large games.

The scum aren't told there is more than 1 team, but they can use the size of their team and the strength of their roles to easily tell if there is only 1 scum team. For instance, in star wars, which was a 22 player game, we (the Empire mafia) were only 3 players (although all with PRs), so we knew right away that there must be a second scum team out there.

I repeat, this is my FIRST Large normal (and my last most likely), you are basically saying that because my only experience of large games is two Kise run themed games that I should somehow assume that there wouldn't be a single scum team.

I'm used to NORMALS having just one scum team. Regardless of whether I'm wrong or right about that, it's NOT scummy by itself. As far as scum/town tells go, it's completely null.

What it IS as a tell, is a "New to large normals" tell if large normals are normally 2 scum teams.

No you haven't. Try again. What specifically was Looker pointing out that you thought was pro-town?

CKD, just look at his last long post.

Opens with a solid point on zwet,

follows up with pointing out Espy had, indeed, pointed out Snake's claim well before he had

(I didn't even put much thought into Looker pointing it out because Espy had already shown it quite clearly by then anyway, why is Looker getting grief for that and not Espy?)

Good first line in response to Vezo as well (I would say that though as it's something I agree with anyway as I said pretty much the same thing earlier), not sure what he means by the next line though.

You also asked leading questions of him (how many scum are in his mafia) that could only ever be answered with what amounts to no more than "How the hell do I know how many scum we have?" Because either he honestly doesn't know, or he would have to pretend he did anyway, it's a pointless question.

All in all, I see zero scum motivation for Looker's actions

, he's been showing himself as obv. town so far and I'm not liking the pressure on him.

Bolded to show my major points in that post, the first pointing out where Looker had, indeed, been pointing things out that needed pointing out (as everyone was blaming Looker for something Espy had already done by that point), and the last one showing that there was no scum motivation in that post, nor had I actively noticed any from Looker at that point.

Do keep up.

LOL. Very cute. No, I didn't make it all up. That is what your words read like. I ask anyone to go back and look at it.

No, you made it up, if that's what it "sounded like" to you, then you have issues, you can't say I said one thing, but meant another. What I type is what I type, not some made up crap that you've decided that it must insinuate.

So you appear to dodge the central issue. You said I was making a good case on CD, and that you'd look into it 'if you had time'. 7 posts later (clearly you have time because you are able to make a Looker-scum argument) you still haven't commented on CD. Did you ever do that reread of CD? If not, why did you say you would?

I didn't have the time. Guess what? Looker was a bigger priority for me to make a case on at that point in my eyes. Are you suggesting that, when I didn't have much time to make a full case, that I should go after one that YOU feel I should make, as opposed to the one that, at that point, I believe to be more useful?

Do you not see how ridiculous your argument is? It's basically: "He had time to make one case, he must have had time to make more as well". Sorry, but the world doesn't work that way. Time is not infinite, and when I have non-mafia stuff to do, I have to say that mafia will normally be done last. Not first. If being busy away from the site is somehow scummy then I'm fucked if I know how.

Asked and answered. Your assertion that scum wouldn't know there is more than 1 team is hilarious. It's pretty obvious how scum would know.

Except for the whole fact that it's not always guarenteed scum would know, at least not until day 2 or 3 (Unless scum were lynched right off the bat, then the team opposing the lynchee's team would know).

Throw in the above, namely that THIS IS MY FIRST LARGE NORMAL and your entire reasoning here is just fucking moronic. "He's never played a large normal, but he has to know what is the usual set up for them anyway otherwise it's scummy". That's what you are saying, and it's just fucking stupid.

All of this is just completely ridiculous. How can anyone call that post fluff? Simply absurd.

It's fluff because NONE OF IT MAKES A CASE

Where are you showing that any of it is "more likely to be done by scum than town"? Where are you showing where the scum motivation for anything I've done is?

It isn't there, it's non-existant, it's just a massive fuck ton of bullshit.

Here's your entire case on me:

"He hasn't played in large normals and assumed scum would be a single team, that's scummy"
"I don't like why he unvoted in case of a quick lynch, must be scum"
"He unvoted Espy to check the thread then disappeared for a while through being busy, scummy"
"He felt Looker was pro-town, that's scummy"
"He had chance to check over Looker and not CD? Must be scummy"

THAT'S IT!

There's no more to your case on me, and none of that is scummy behaviour, cautious behaviour? Yes. Lacking in the general knowledge of Large Normals? very much so. Being busy through real life stuff? Hell yeah. But... where is it scummy? Show me WHY it's scummy, nobody has bothered to do that so far.

You've made a poor case on me, and a bunch of people are diving on it as an easy mislynch, yet not a single person who is voting me has given any solid reasons why I am somehow being seen as being scummy, not one. Why are my actions more likely to be scum than town? What scum motivation have I got for any of it? Seriously, I can't see ANY of this being presented.

And then you wonder why I'm getting fucking frustrated and pissed off with this absolute fuck up of a game?

I pretty much disagree with everything you're saying in this post. I'd really like it if other players would comment on the case and your defense.

[LimMePls]

I'd really like it if other players would comment on the case and your defense.

I commented already (post 908).

This is mind numbingly frustrating.

[LimMePls]

^^That is absurd.

If that is the case, then anytime scum starts to get wagon they just fake giving up and they never get lynched.

Why is giving up a town tell?

I didn't say it was conversely though, thinking you can get a quick lynch because there is no defence for it would be cheap lynch move for the scum.

WHAT?

[LimMePls]

^^That is absurd.

If that is the case, then anytime scum starts to get wagon they just fake giving up and they never get lynched.

Why is giving up a town tell?

I didn't say it was conversely though, thinking you can get a quick lynch because there is no defence for it would be cheap lynch move for the scum.

WHAT?

I'm starting to see Pranas point about your responses. What I have written is easily readable and you come back with nothing, it's almost as if you are trying to make your post countnin here look busy without actually adding anything. Your getting a bit Jack on us by doing that.

I can't believe someone is accusing me of not adding anything after the last 5 or so posts I've made. I simply can't believe it. I'm going to step away from this game right now before I get really pissed off.

[LimMePls]

Only when I get frustrated at things, and this game is less fun and more frustrating. I don't think I've ever replaced out of a game, and I ideally don't want to start now, but I also would rather a game where people actually put forth good cases, rather than cases that are simply "I don't agree with this, therefore it's scummy" which is exactly how LMP's case is. There's no "scum are more likely to do this" reasoning, or "this is scummy because" reasoning, just complete "If you don't agree with how I feel things should be done, then you are scummy". It's just utterly ridiculous reasoning.

This is an unfair characterization of my case in the following ways:

• Your statements about a single scum team on D1 are not "if you don't agree with me it's scummy" it's "you seem to have inside information that only scum would have".
  
• My accusation about you distancing from the CD mislynch is not "if you don't agree with me it's scummy" it's "you posted a statement that looked supportive of the CD wagon, said you'd dig into it more, and then went 7 posts without a comment, to get a last minute vote in on a different wagon". It looks scummy for obvious reasons.

I'll grant the unvote could be seen the way you are suggesting ("if you don't agree with me it's scummy") but that is why I probed you on the matter, asking for specifics of why you made that choice (beyond what you'd given up to that point). Your "I've already explained that, I'm not saying anything else" was scummy. If you could defend your position, why wouldn't you?

I'm willing to lynch Jack if that's the only viable option, as he seems completely unwilling to help, and "he always plays this way as town" isn't enough for me.

[LimMePls]

You're scrambling for a defense. For instance:

So just because I made 5 quick and short posts, I somehow had loads of free time to make a full case on CoolDoG?

No one asked you to "make a full case" on CoolDog. You said you would look at him and comment on it, and then you didn't. It looks like you were trying to blend with the town ("Yeah, you guys are right") without having to join in the building mislynch. It looks like a carefully constructed way to blend with the town without getting involved, and I say it was scummy. If you hadn't ever said the case on CD was good and you'd look into it, and you just pursued Looker instead, it would be completely different (this would be an instance of disagreeing with me but not being scummy), but that isn't what you did. What you did was "you guys are right, I should look into that some more...**twiddles fingers and doesn't look into it more until we're near lynch** oh hey, I'm gonna vote this guy over here with no explanation about my looking into CD". I'm saying I don't think you ever intended to look into CD more, you just said that to blend with town, which was very anti-CD at that point.

[LimMePls]

yeah you keep saying that, but you are not doing anything about it...also, i hate the saying "perfectly honest"..have you not honest in this game...how about you get something started by asking question instead of bitching about the boring game (not scum hunting). To “be quite honest”, I was debating between killing you and Demon last night..thoughts? I changed to Demon at the last second.

I wouldn't shed a tear if you shot me instead. And I have started asking questions, a pretty large line of questioning towards PD, that has only generated comments from people when I ask for them. But don't let the truth get in your way.

Oh, and the Demon shot was awful, he was obv town.

[LimMePls]

Oh, and the Demon shot was awful, he was obv town.

really?...what about his play said town?

The VT claim D1 for starts. And then pretty much every other bit of it.

[LimMePls]

LMP you didn't answer my question either.

This one?

So should we lynch you then? Because by your logic that's what we should do.

Because if so, you can't possibly expect me to answer a rhetorical question. If not, then you need to ask it again, cause I don't see it.

[LimMePls]

LMP, I note you've still dropped down to just that part of your "case" now, seemingly dropping everything else in favour of avoiding any of the questions I posed. Why?

Incidentally, regarding CoolDoG, you say I didn't have to make a case, that's as maybe, but I still felt like I needed to go through his posts fully, and as I did not have the time to do so, I didn't.

Then you could have said "I haven't had time to do that CD read I said I would, but I have seen something about Looker I'd like to talk about. But you didn't, you did JACK ALL about it. Which to me indicates that you never really intended to reread CD, you were just saying that. Which implies scum.

Are you now suggesting I should have skimmed his posts to come to a viewpoint on him, rather than taking the time to do a decent job?

Sure. Or you could have just admitted you didn't have time and said something to that affect in thread. Instead you just simply dropped it, which looks lazy or scummy. You aren't striking me as lazy, so...

I suppose if that's how you normally look over people, it would explain why your case on me has no solid basis and that you can't actually respond to any of it without deliberately ignoring what I'm saying.

I LOL'd.

[LimMePls]

After all, right now I would say I'm the easier lynch over Jack,

Why? The votecount begs to differ with you. Why would you say you are an easier lynch? Particularly when you assert my case is bad. This quote does not compute with your defense.

[LimMePls]

LMP, go back and answer the questions I've asked.

Pretty sure I have. The ones worth answering anyways.

[LimMePls]

LMP you didn't answer my question either.

This one?

So should we lynch you then? Because by your logic that's what we should do.

Because if so, you can't possibly expect me to answer a rhetorical question. If not, then you need to ask it again, cause I don't see it.

It wasn't rhetorical, and you are not answering anyones questions.

Alright, you have got to be an idiot. "So should we lynch you then?" is the definition of a rhetorical question.

[LimMePls]

I'm not giving up yet, although I feel like it.

He was at 4 votes in a large game and you were going to be gone for 24 hours. How on EARTH could you be afraid of a quick lynch? It's preposterous. Your refusal to clarify it from that craptastic response is bad.

Are you suggesting scum are more likely to be more cautious than town then?

No, I'm saying your explanation is nonsense. There should have been 0 worry about a quicklynch if you were going to be gone 24 hours and he only had 4 votes on him.

Regardless of whether you believe it to be nonsense (There has been lynches quicker than that elsewhere, hence why I was being safe, ask Snake, he's on the UKFF as well), how is it scummy? If it's not scummy, why is it part of your case?

I can't believe I have to explain how it is scummy, but here goes. If you do it in order to look town ("look how pro-town I am, I'm going to unvote so we don't have a quick lynch, aren't I awesomely pro-town guys") then it's scummy. Its a statement that looks designed to appear town. I'd even find just a plain unvote less scummy. But your unvote comes with "reasoning" that is designed to look townie (I want to prevent a mislynch) but is actually terrible logic (there is no way a mislynch would occur in the 24 hours you claimed you'd be gone). If you don't have a reasonable expectation of a quicklynch (which you shouldn't) then there is no reason to point out that you are unvoting to prevent a mislynch, except to create the image that you are pro-town.

Absolutely I assumed it was two teams. I've been in 1 Large Normal and at least 5 Large themes (that I remember off the top of my head) and in all but 1 there were 2 scum teams (the one had a scum team and a super strong SK). So yes, I'd say more than 1 scum team in large games is standard for Large games.

The scum aren't told there is more than 1 team, but they can use the size of their team and the strength of their roles to easily tell if there is only 1 scum team. For instance, in star wars, which was a 22 player game, we (the Empire mafia) were only 3 players (although all with PRs), so we knew right away that there must be a second scum team out there.

I repeat, this is my FIRST Large normal (and my last most likely), you are basically saying that because my only experience of large games is two Kise run themed games that I should somehow assume that there wouldn't be a single scum team.

I'm used to NORMALS having just one scum team. Regardless of whether I'm wrong or right about that, it's NOT scummy by itself. As far as scum/town tells go, it's completely null.

What it IS as a tell, is a "New to large normals" tell if large normals are normally 2 scum teams.

No, it's a scum tell. The scum tell is that you had information the town shouldn't have. Of course you're going to say now that there is a better explanation for why you had that knowledge, but why should we believe you about that? As it stands, you may refute my assertion, but my assertion is simply valid. The fact is, the game looks to be a 1 scum team game, and you were calling it that D1 before we'd had any flips.

The two large games you played with Kise, how many scum teams were there? Are they the only large games you played here? If that is the case, then why would you assume mini normals with 1 team would have more in common with large normals than large themes would? It seems to me like the number of players in the game has more to do with the number of scum teams likely than normal vs theme.

No you haven't. Try again. What specifically was Looker pointing out that you thought was pro-town?

CKD, just look at his last long post.

Opens with a solid point on zwet,

follows up with pointing out Espy had, indeed, pointed out Snake's claim well before he had

(I didn't even put much thought into Looker pointing it out because Espy had already shown it quite clearly by then anyway, why is Looker getting grief for that and not Espy?)

Good first line in response to Vezo as well (I would say that though as it's something I agree with anyway as I said pretty much the same thing earlier), not sure what he means by the next line though.

You also asked leading questions of him (how many scum are in his mafia) that could only ever be answered with what amounts to no more than "How the hell do I know how many scum we have?" Because either he honestly doesn't know, or he would have to pretend he did anyway, it's a pointless question.

All in all, I see zero scum motivation for Looker's actions

, he's been showing himself as obv. town so far and I'm not liking the pressure on him.

Bolded to show my major points in that post, the first pointing out where Looker had, indeed, been pointing things out that needed pointing out (as everyone was blaming Looker for something Espy had already done by that point), and the last one showing that there was no scum motivation in that post, nor had I actively noticed any from Looker at that point.

Do keep up.

As I've already pointed out, you've still failed to explain what I was supposed to know you meant when you said "he is pointing out things that needed pointing out". From the context of when you said that (right around when he was pointing out Snake's watcher crumb) I had to infer that you meant his pointing out the crumb.

LOL. Very cute. No, I didn't make it all up. That is what your words read like. I ask anyone to go back and look at it.

No, you made it up, if that's what it "sounded like" to you, then you have issues, you can't say I said one thing, but meant another. What I type is what I type, not some made up crap that you've decided that it must insinuate.

LOL! So now I'm not allowed to interpret other people's posts? Exactly how are we supposed to find scum then? Of course I have to read what people are saying, look at the motivations of those statements, and try and glean alignment from it. The motivation of that post was "let me look town by saying I agree with the CD wagon, but distance from it with a 'I'll look into it more later' statement". If you'd actually delivered on looking into CD, that wouldn't be the case, but given that statement followed up by you NOT looking into it, the only motivation I can see for you even making that post was the blend with the anti-CD vibe that was going on in the town at the time.

Seriously, your actions in regard to the CD wagon should be enough to swing you all by themselves. I can't think of a better example of scum distancing from an impending mislynch.

So you appear to dodge the central issue. You said I was making a good case on CD, and that you'd look into it 'if you had time'. 7 posts later (clearly you have time because you are able to make a Looker-scum argument) you still haven't commented on CD. Did you ever do that reread of CD? If not, why did you say you would?

I didn't have the time. Guess what? Looker was a bigger priority for me to make a case on at that point in my eyes. Are you suggesting that, when I didn't have much time to make a full case, that I should go after one that YOU feel I should make, as opposed to the one that, at that point, I believe to be more useful?

Do you not see how ridiculous your argument is? It's basically: "He had time to make one case, he must have had time to make more as well". Sorry, but the world doesn't work that way. Time is not infinite, and when I have non-mafia stuff to do, I have to say that mafia will normally be done last. Not first. If being busy away from the site is somehow scummy then I'm fucked if I know how.

I've already dealt with this in full.

Asked and answered. Your assertion that scum wouldn't know there is more than 1 team is hilarious. It's pretty obvious how scum would know.

Except for the whole fact that it's not always guarenteed scum would know, at least not until day 2 or 3 (Unless scum were lynched right off the bat, then the team opposing the lynchee's team would know).

Throw in the above, namely that THIS IS MY FIRST LARGE NORMAL and your entire reasoning here is just fucking moronic. "He's never played a large normal, but he has to know what is the usual set up for them anyway otherwise it's scummy". That's what you are saying, and it's just fucking stupid.

Again, you may not have played Large Normals, but you've played Large Themes, correct? In your Large theme experience, how many scum teams have there been?

You can call it fucking moronic if you'd like, but it doesn't change the fact that you made statements D1 that appeared to have information that town can't have had, and your only explanation for it is "well this is my first Large Normal, so I assumed 1 scum team". Why wouldn't you assume 2 in a game this size? You have no other defense for this, so of course your defense is going to be "I didn't know". That isn't good enough.

All of this is just completely ridiculous. How can anyone call that post fluff? Simply absurd.

It's fluff because NONE OF IT MAKES A CASE

Saying that doesn't make it so.

Where are you showing that any of it is "more likely to be done by scum than town"? Where are you showing where the scum motivation for anything I've done is?

Let me get this straight, if I point out multiple instance of scummy behavior, it's not a case unless I also say "which is more likely scum because (insert X)"? Why do I have to hold everyone's hands? If I point out scummy behavior, shouldn't people be able to see on their own why it is more likely to come from scum? This isn't kindergarten, people should be able to connect the dots on their own. Showing multiple instances of scummy behavior should be enough for them to see the big picture (this guy is scum).

It isn't there, it's non-existant, it's just a massive fuck ton of bullshit.

Here's your entire case on me:

"He hasn't played in large normals and assumed scum would be a single team, that's scummy"

Misrep. My point is "he has information D1 town shouldn't have".

"I don't like why he unvoted in case of a quick lynch, must be scum"

Misrep. My point is "town has no reason to be cautious of a 24 hour quick lynch there. Which means this statement is trying to appear pro-town with faulty reasoning".

"He unvoted Espy to check the thread then disappeared for a while through being busy, scummy"

Misrep. The point is "He unvoted Espy and then disappeared." Of course you're going to claim its for being busy, but that doesn't make it so, and it isn't part of my case.

"He felt Looker was pro-town, that's scummy"

Misrep. Where do I assert that a pro-town read on looker is scummy?

"He had chance to check over Looker and not CD? Must be scummy"

Misrep. My point is that you said "I agree with you guys about CD, I'll look into him" and then went 7 posts without commenting on him, not even a "I decided not to look into CD" or "I actually think CD might be town" nothing, simply dropped it entirely. And then, when CD was near lynch, you put your vote somewhere else, implying that you did have time to look at people, but you didn't want your vote on CD. THAT IS SCUMMY.

Every single one of your claims about what my case is is a misrep. Every single one. Nice try though.

THAT'S IT!

There's no more to your case on me, and none of that is scummy behaviour, cautious behaviour? Yes. Lacking in the general knowledge of Large Normals? very much so. Being busy through real life stuff? Hell yeah. But... where is it scummy? Show me WHY it's scummy, nobody has bothered to do that so far.

You've made a poor case on me, and a bunch of people are diving on it as an easy mislynch, yet not a single person who is voting me has given any solid reasons why I am somehow being seen as being scummy, not one. Why are my actions more likely to be scum than town? What scum motivation have I got for any of it? Seriously, I can't see ANY of this being presented.

And then you wonder why I'm getting fucking frustrated and pissed off with this absolute fuck up of a game?

Again, claiming there is no more to my case after falsly representing my case doesn't make it so. Of course you're getting frustrated, you're caught scum. All of your play D1 towards Espy looks like bussing a scum buddy, and your play D2 towards the CD wagon looks like distancing from a mislynch. On top of that you've made posts with information on D1 that town shouldn't have, and a ridiculous "to prevent a quick lynch" statement.

[LimMePls]

No I asked by your logic, as in you said that Prana should be lynched because he wasn't going to bother with rhe game anymore, you then got called on that possibly being scummy as it could be seen as simple lynch to get the heat off someone else, you then have a hussy fit storm off saying your not going to play because you were getting annoyed or something, so by that logic I asked should we lynch you while you were away then? Not idiotic a simple question and I don't care much for your insults either.

Seriously, if you think that question wasn't rhetorical, you need to go back to school, smack your teachers and demand they actually teach you something.

I can't possibly answer it seriously because the only serious answer is "OF COURSE YOU SHOULDN'T LYNCH ME". I disagree with your assertion that my behavior is similar to the behavior I'm calling scummy. If you'd like to point out why you think that, I'd be happy to discuss it with you, but I can't take your ridiculous question seriously.

And I don't give a damn if you're offended or not. If you don't want to be called idiotic, then don't say idiotic things.

[LimMePls]

The scum are somewhere in here:

antihero (horror)
Silver (nicolbolas)
a2rude
evilpac(vezok)

by poe

Jack, help a brother out. I know it might take 15 minutes, but how about explaining the POE that got you to this point. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but it'd be really nice to understand what the hell you're thinking.

Also, why is PD not scum?

[LimMePls]

go iso nicolbolas.

Wow. Nice call. Add silverbullet, and we have a slot that has literally done nothing to help town the entire game. That is awesome. I especially love Nicolbolas' "I've got several town reads but no scum reads".

Jack, what do you make of PD's play towards the CD wagon? What does that have to do with dumb arguments?

[LimMePls]

You "inferred" that I meant Snake's watcher crumb so far after I had made that explanation to CKD that you either skimmed the thread (and therefore are taking things out of context, which makes your "case" null and void) or you deliberately avoided acknowledging the post (which again makes your case null and void).

I replaced into this game jack ass. I wasn't in it to start. And I had to catch up on 20+ pages. Yeah, I'm sure there was some skimming in there.

This guy is so scummy people. Seriously.

As for silver, it can't be a post restriction because Nicolbolas wasn't posting like that. Unless the post restriction has to do with number of words per post, as most of NB's posts are small.

[LimMePls]

Unvote
Vote: Snake

Pretty sure he's a scum watcher.

[LimMePls]

What I'm not getting is why your all so sure that I'm a scum watcher and silver isn't a scum tracker? Does make me wonder what your real motivations are here?

This is the sort of thing I'd expect scum to say. "Why me?"

[LimMePls]

Vote: PranaDevil

Obv Snake buddy. Read his vote on Snake.

Don't claim your target lew. You don't want the scum to know if you were going to kill town or scum last night.

[LimMePls]

He can't address them. Three days in a row he has been obviously scummy. His interactions with Esp D1 were scummy (kept saying he was "suspicious without voting, until NC wagon was clearly about to happen and then suddenly "OMG WE SHOULD BE VOTING ESPY"), his town blending on CD followed by complete distancing from the CD lynch was scummy, and his play yesterday under pressure was terrible. He basically flailed around all day yesterday pushing any viable wagon that wasn't his own, and then made an OBVIOUS bussing vote on Snake.

PD scum is simply a fact.

[LimMePls]

I have nothing new to add. PD is still scum. His lynch is made of win. Srsly.

[LimMePls]

I also note he still hasn't jumped on evilpacman for his earlier "assumption" on the scum, the same way he jumped on my assumption that there was just one scum team. Which also means he's inconsistant with his views.

There is a massive difference between speculating on the number of scum left on D4 and making posts that plainly state the number of scum teams D1. We have a lot more information now as town to make a somewhat informed decision on how many scum we think are left. On D1 you town had 0 ways of knowing whether there was 1 scum team or 2.

The rest of what you said is still awful. You still need lynching.

[LimMePls]

since we lynched mafia, I decided not to shoot, according to what discussed in post 1133 and 1135.

This is awful. I have no idea why you wouldn't shoot. GOOD FREAKING LORD.

[LimMePls]

I think it might be best if we mass claim. Thoughts?

[LimMePls]

Yes I agree with his descriptions, and yes his claim is accurate.

also need a claim from rude.

LMP and vollkan...not only does your role stop someone from killing, but it also protects someone from a kill....after 4 nights, you have yet to stop a kill..one would think that you have done something by now...thoughts on suspicion of the other? What happens to your power if the other dies?

also, pac should not be the lynch today, given your claim.

Mod can you update the first page please.

Done

Just like the other neighborhoods, if one of us dies, the other gets the power to themselves. If Vollkan were scum, I don't think I'd still be alive. However, I have wondered about it, given that every night we block someone, the kill goes somewhere else, and its not like the scum haven't had better targets each night. And Vollkan not being targeted for an NK into D5 is pretty surprising if he is town. I can't help but wonder if this wasn't what the mod wanted with the game though, lots of paranoia amongst the neighborhoods. If so, it's worked pretty damn good.

[LimMePls]

LMP: what do you mean "his claim is accurate"?

I mean his claim is accurate. CKD asked me if I agreed with his claim, and I was responding to that.

[LimMePls]

Wow, evilpacman is either stupid or scum. I'm not sure which yet.

[LimMePls]

I haven't played with Vollkan before this.

I think Pacman was just dropped on his head as a baby, I don't necessarily think his current idiocy is scummy.

[LimMePls]

It seems to me the biggest question we have to ask ourselves is: Do we think the scum were in any of the neighborhoods. That plus looking at the PD wagon, plus rereading the game knowing PD's flip should prove beneficial, a reread is how I caught PD in the first place.

[LimMePls]

OH, and full claims from everyone please. Can someone make a chart for us with claims made and those who haven't claimed?

[LimMePls]

I think we need to swing a2.

[LimMePls]

You're not helping yourself a2. That is a massive ball of indecision and bad logic (I don't think the neighbors have scum, and I believe LMP/Vollkan claim, I guess I'll vote LMP), followed by placing a vote only to appease the people pressuring you. I'd vote you if I wasn't worried about a Vollkan/CKD team.

[LimMePls]

Vote: CKD

This needs to happen.

[LimMePls]

CKD has bothered me ever since he claimed to prevent Singer from stealing his kill and using it as scum (which then turns out to be EXACTLY what happened but in reverse), and then he uses the kill on DemonHybrid (who was pretty obv town).

GAH This game.

[LimMePls]

Unvote

This game makes my head hurt. Pretty sure this is exactly what Seraphim wanted with the whole "neighborhood" mechanic, breeding paranoia.

[LimMePls]

Anyone who thinks I'm scum after how hard I pushed PD to the front of the lynch line is stupid.

[LimMePls]

interesting....so..if you are "worried" of a vollkan/CKD scum team, why arent you pressing it further? Why does that worry stop you from voting a2?...does that mean you wont vote him at all today because of said worry? the above statement rubs me completely wrong. maybe it is the phrase "you are not helping yourself"....not sure what exactly about it rubs me wrong. why do you care if he is "helping himself"? this feels coachy to me...or...or something....need to think on it.

Not sure which of these rhetorical questions I'm supposed to answer, so I'll answer them all.

1) I'm not sure what angle to push it from. I need to reread the game.
2) Because I don't want you two to win? Isn't this obvious?
3) You're not helping yourself is another way of saying "you keep making scummy posts". It isn't coaching.

@Vollkan: Would you lynch CKD? Why or why not.

I gotta say, I'm really frustrated with this game. The game stalled due to mod abandoment, it came back and people floundered, and I had to be the one to rejuvinate the game by rereading and finding the stuff about PD. It feels like I'm doing all the work in this game.

Vollkan is really making me jumpy. I'll have some observations later, I don't have time for it now. I'd love it if other people could put half the effort into the game that I did in finding PD scum.

[LimMePls]

why is vollkan NOW making you jumpy? you guys have had 4 NIGHTS and not once have you stopped a kill....what really are the chances?

Pretty large. Have you ever tried JK'ing to prevent night kills? It's not easy. For one, you can't put the protect on a claimed PR if you want the PR to be able to use their ability (something a Doc does very well), and you can't use the RB to try and stop a scum kill if you're afraid you might stop a vig kill on scum (and we had multiple vig/vig-like abilities). Effectively using a JK is not easy, and I don't think 4 whiffs by itself is evidence of scum.

Still waiting for any of the town players in this game to engage in a meaningful way. Do I really have to do all the work?

[LimMePls]

Ok, something just occured to me. We know we blocked Lew two nights ago, and that is why his kill didn't go through. And we know that he chose not to kill last night. Now let me ask you this, what are the odds that scum with a kill would have chosen not to use it, just for the wifom of it? Does anyone else out there think this makes lew more likely to be town than scum? Why/why not?

[LimMePls]

@Vollkan: Can I have a link to your two most recent scum games and your two most recent town games?

[LimMePls]

@Vollkan: In our QT you said something to the effect of (paraphrasing and not quoting the QT, for the record) "Even if Lew and a2 are scum buddies, Lew must shoot a2, because if he doesn't, he'll be caught by town for the backtrack". How do you feel about this given lew's no-shoot action?

Reread commencing, no idea how much time I'll have this weekend for this.

[LimMePls]

We jailed lew because we thought there was a good chance scum would kill the vig that night, and since lew was just replacing into the slot, we weren't sure if he'd even be able to make a very informed shot, so we figured losing the shot wasn't as bad. I really wish I could go back and change that decision, it was terrible in hindsight. This is one of those difficult decisions I was alluding to earlier about how our JK's not stopping a kill isn't as damning as ckd suggests. A doc could just protect lew without consequences, for us it was a gamble.

If there is a night that makes one of us (vollkan and me) more likely to be scum, it is that night. The fact that we JK'ed a vig and the scum killed the tracker instead, is pretty bad. I'd think they'd fear a vig much more than a tracker, so the tracker dying instead is curious. Does anyone disagree with this?

I plan on starting a reread soon, but I dunno if it'll start this weekend or not.

[LimMePls]

Scum to town:

LMP
CKD
Volk (strict middle, can get no read)
Pac/Warcher

You have no read on Vollkan 5 days into the game?

Unvote
Vote: a2rude

This is too easy.

[LimMePls]

So, I've been wondering, can anyone see some way to use our abilities to guarantee us a win? We have a vig and a JK at our disposal, maybe we can find a way to use them in such a combination that scum can't win? I've been trying to come up with some scenarios, but I haven't found one yet. Figured someone else might see something I'm not?

[LimMePls]

You're going out of your way to sling me those scum points Vollkan. That's fascinating.

[LimMePls]

Unvote

[LimMePls]

1. Lynch a2

If a2 flips scum:

2. LMP JK Vollkan
3. Lew vig LMP

This would leave us at (assuming NK on lew) {CKD, Pacman, Vollkan}, but a cleared Vollkan, since he was JK'ed and there was no kill. Cleared Vollkan then has to pick between Pacman and CKD. If there is no kill {lew, CKD, Pacman, Vollkan} Lynch Vollkan, and if the game is still going, then Lew has to shoot at best choice of CKD/Pacman.

The problem is that if a2 did flip town, the resulting mess is pretty ugly.

[LimMePls]

Scum to town:

LMP
CKD
Volk (strict middle, can get no read)
Pac/Warcher

You have no read on Vollkan 5 days into the game?

Unvote
Vote: a2rude

This is too easy.

CKD has also said that he can't read me, and I'm fairly often told that I am unreadable. I fail to see what is scummy about a2 saying he can't read me, let alone to the extent that could possibly justify a LYLO/MYLO vote.

LMP+3

You really think there is nothing scummy about having a null read on someone on D5? Is there anyone in the game you have a null read on?

[LimMePls]

@Vollkan, I hear lots of stories about how you are an awesome town player. Can you point me to some original cases you made this game against scum players? Everything I see is you joining other people's cases. As for my unvote, obviously I'm not ready for a lynch to happen, and with this few players in the game, leaving votes out can be very bad.

@pacman: maybe.

@everyone else: PLEASE FREAKING HELP! GOOD LORD!

[LimMePls]

Vollkan wanted to JK CKD, but was worried that CKD was a two shot and we shouldn't stop him. I said that it was 1-shot, and that he could confirm by looking at the flip, but that I didn't like JK on CKD because I was beginning to think that CKD was scum (at the time we'd decided that using the JK as a doc was better than trying to stop a kill). Vollkan asks me what makes me think CKD is scum. I respond by saying essentially "gut", that I'm uncomfortable with the way that he claimed D1 to keep his partner from killing him (if he was scum) and taking the ability for themself, and then that is exactly what happened, but in reverse. This followed by him killing DemonHybrid (which I still say is a terrible kill that doesn't make sense as town) made me really cautious about him. And I expressed so in the thread (something to the effect of "no one should be calling anyone 'confirmed town'").

Anyways, back to the discussion, Vollkan then says that since CKD has no power (since he was a 1-shot) and the only town killing role (Pom) says she thinks he is town, he is still a good block because scum could still want to kill him. That or, we should continue protecting one of ourselves, although he didn't think we were likely to be targeted for NK since we hadn't claimed.

I then said that I disagreed that we wouldn't be likely NK targets, since we're both pretty pro-town players and scum do go for kills on good pro-town players, but I pointed out that I thought the scum would most likely shoot Pom (or rather Pom's replacement), and I asked if sacrificing Pom was worth it to let Pom's slot get 1 more kill, or if we should JK the slot and hope to stop the scum kill at the cost of the vig shot. I then said that if he really thought CKD was the optimal play, I would back him, but I felt like CKD (if town) was very unlikely to be the scum NK target. I then observe that there is a claimed tracker as well, so it seems really unlikely the scum would go for CKD.

Vollkan then says that since Pom's slot is getting a replacement, the opportunity cost of the vig that night (since the replacement would be new to the game and may not be able to make an optimal shot) is lower, and that he would be happy with a lewarcher (at this point lew had been announced as replacing) JK. He goes on to say that he still thinks that if it were between JKing one of us and CKD, CKD would be the better protect.

I then post and say I'm fine with a lewarcher JK.

Vollkan, please post if you disagree with any of the characterization of what I just posted, since I couldn't quote it directly.

[LimMePls]

unvote

oh, dear. I misread LMP's post and thought you were the very one who suggested to jail me. This does not invalidate the rest of my post and I would like the others to comment on what I have written there. But the biggest reason to assume that the supposed scummy jailer falls with my mistaken assumption he pushed for my jailing.

He did push for it, even though I was the one that first suggested it. And when I did, it was more arguing why CKD was a bad protect (there are other more likely kills than CKD) than arguing that we should protect you, which is evidenced by my pointing out in a follow up post that there is also a claimed tracker. He then made a post pointing out why jailing you was good.

This game makes my head want to explode. If I could invent a time travel machine, I would go back and tell myself not to replace into it.

I'm going to begin a reread of the game. Hopefully it'll turn up something as awesome when as when it turned up PD scum.

[LimMePls]

stopping during my reread to ask this question (I want an answer from everyone):

Do you believe lewarcher is town?

[LimMePls]

still reading, but I can't help but wondering if we're not just making this more difficult than it is. a2 and pacman may indeed be the remaining scum.

Do you believe lewarcher is town?

I still want a response to this from everyone.

[LimMePls]

^^This makes me feel better about CKD. It's pretty logical. To answer your earlier question that I somehow missed (but just saw finishing my full reread) I don't have a problem with your claim D1, I have a problem with the fact that given your claim and its underlying fear (that scum-TNM/SS would kill you and steal the kill) that what ended up happening was the reverse of this (essentially SS Dying and you ending up with the sole kill). I would have been feeling a lot better about you if the two of you had come to some agreement and killed together N1. As you'll see in a minute, my reread post will contain a post where I ask you about this.

[LimMePls]

^^and that you chose to use the kill on DH, which (as I've stated a number of times before) I think was a really bad kill.

[LimMePls]

Hello.

(very quickly steps out of character) Apologies for the lurking/total disappearance. Without going into too much detail, something drastic occured IRL, could not post. But I used the extra long night phase to catch up.

(steps back)

Ahem.

I think Prana was coming off incredibly reasonable at the end of d1/

I do not like at all how quickly the train built up on NC, and while once the attention turned on him he definitely started acting scummy and flailing all over the god damn place, I still think the initial reasoning behind the beginning was flimsy at best. I am more concerned with Jack's overwhelmingly anti-town play at this point. There were the comments in the early stages of the game, his frantic desire to switch everyone from Espy -who we had seen him as acting buddylike with- now a confirmed scum, to NC which is now confirmed town. At one point he even outright stated that the game wasn't really providing any interest for him anymore.

@Jack- Why the incessant tunneling on NC, even before he started flailing? After the flips, how do you justify more or less single-handedly leading the town from a scumlynch to a mislynch? If you aren't scum, please tell me what actions you have taken that were pro-town?

vote: Jack

CoolDog I think at this point deserves a

HoS Cooldog

for things such as: posting at night, his constant "i'm going to be going, but.." posts, AtE overload. The biggest tell for me however, was the posting of the case after the hammer, especially considering how his case was just exact repetition of a previous case from someone else. I am unable to tell at this point if it's for sure a scumtell, or just stupid play.

@Cool- Why the need to constantly tell us you are leaving quickly when you post? Is it a reason to cover up for lack of content? Wouldn't it be more pro-town to wait until you had time to build a case and post? Explain why you justified the lynch after the hammer, without original reasoning? Explain how any of these actions were protown.

This post has praising of Prana, attacking Jack (who scum feared was some form of PR), plus the HOS on CoolDog, who was starting to build a wagon at this point. With current information this post looks like it comes from scum. (Full disclosure: On Day 3 I liked this post).

Do not touch CKD. He is fine. Scum is probably trying to frame him.

Or you're scum with him and are trying to throw us off the scent.

Also, all the neighbors are town? Possible sure, but to say it's probable?

I'm not happy with CKD personally, purely because he came out day 1 and revealed his role because he didn't trust his partner, and it's his partner who gets nobbled? Could easily have been a big ball of WIFOM from CKD to throw us off the scent. But as there's going to be more than one scum out there I'll look elsewhere for now.

Can I also say "I damned well told you so" in regards to Espy? Yeah, what was with the whole "he's not scum, we're lynching the completely stupid option of Nero" on day 1? Nero only became stupid (not scummy, just stupid) after pressure turned on him, and it's hard not to go a bit nuts when you have undue pressure on you from absolutely nothing. It was a terrible option for a lynch and how the hell it went through I have no idea when the scummiest player by about ten miles was Espy.

But then, following him very closely in the scummy stakes would be... Jack. The same guy who was making sure the Espy wagon was derailed in favour of a Nero one.

vote: Jack

I'd do an ISO on him, however it would be a massive waste of time as I can't remember him making a single useful post so far.

Interesting.

Continuing with scumpoints from yesterday:

Vote: Cooldog

. That said, I also want to do relational analysis of Espy, so this vote is somewhat contingent.

We're at 3 votes... that's L-5. Are we really in danger of a quicklynch?

At the moment: No.
If the wagon continued at it current pace: Yes.

I think you'll find that wagons tend to slow down as they reach the vicinity L-1 .

Unvote, Vote: a2rudeboy

This may go into complete mafia game theory territory, but I have never once

once

once

seen someone Vote/HoS two people in the same post and not be scum.

If Cooldog is scum, lynch a2. If a2 is scum, lynch Cooldog.

a2+5

I don't completley agree with you, though, DH.

There is certainly a tendency for scum to do the Vote/HoS combo. However, it's a weaker scumtell (+1/+2) in isolation. For me, the most important thing is his reasoning for putting a HoS on CoolDog:

for things such as: posting at night, his constant "i'm going to be going, but.." posts, AtE overload.

The biggest tell for me

however, was the posting of the case after the hammer, especially considering how his case was just exact repetition of a previous case from someone else.

I am unable to tell at this point if it's for sure a scumtell, or just stupid play.

None of those points are at all paticularly reflective of any actual analysis, and all but the vague "AtE overload" charge are only dubiously scummy at best. I can't see how they could justify a HoS. But then we get the "biggest tell" of repeating a case. Putting aside whether that really is a huge scumtell, a2 immediately proceeds to undercut this with his last sentence (bolded). In other words, he both thinks it is the "biggest scumtell" (among a handful of rather piddly 'scumtells', the aggregate of which apparently justifies a HoS), but is also uncertain about whether or not it is a scumtell.

So, having equally incredibly strong suspicions on two players after 24pgs is considered scummy now?

Quote for me please where somebody attacked you for 'having equally strong suspicions'?

This is good posting.

Wasn’t aware that the game opened yesterday..
SS was town huh?....yeah he kept making comments last night like “aren’t you going to feel stupid” last night.

We basically argued last night, neither of us trusted each other to even think about using there ability...though, I did ask him what he thought of CD and said he would be the only person I would consider using the power on.

I see that zwet and Pom used their ability last night on Esp?...curious, who came up with the suggestion first?

I'm not happy with CKD personally,

purely because he came out day 1 and revealed his role because he didn't trust his partner

, and it's his partner who gets nobbled? Could easily have been a big ball of WIFOM from CKD to throw us off the scent. But as there's going to be more than one scum out there I'll look elsewhere for now.

in reference to bolded...did I come out because i didnt trust my partner? or did I come out because I wanted everyone to have as much info as possible, especially IF my partner was scum. someone needed to be accountable for the kill...are you misrepresenting here, or simply misunderstanding my claim again? But lets play your game, so I am throwing a big ball of WIFOM to get your off my scent on page fucking 1?...you really are putting that forward? What scent were people tracking at that point?

I agree CD looks super scummy, but this wagon is really rocking and rolling pretty quick….

What is the rush?

Also CD, you had a question for me yesterday, but a.) completely ignored my post/questions and b.) didn’t get your answer….I thought it was important..why did you hammer if you still had a question outstanding?

Who did SS want to use the power on? Can you summarize what was discussed in the QT between you two that night?

vote:snakeplissken

vote: jack

vote: jack

This sequence of posts from start of D3 is funny/interesting. Jack votes Snake and a2rude and Prana both immediately vote him. One of these is confirmed scum.

Vote Curiouskarmadog

Why you ask? Well I watched him last night and he visited Demon who is now dead. Something says to me that he's up to no good. wouldn't you?

Some of you may scream WIFOM at this, but I see this as evidence that CKD is town. For one, the scum watcher targeted CKD (presumably to catch a protective role that might try to save the vig) and for another, if CKD was scum, there is no reason scum-Snake would have come out like this and tried to push his lynch. I don't see how there would have been enough gain to bus at this point.

I agree, however so far I'm wondering what the hell is going on, we have Jack making no attempt at actually playing the game, horrordude being useless, Pacman deciding that lynching scum is a second priority behind lynching someone when he dislikes their (exceptionally pro-town) playstyle, and thus far it's horrendously ridiculous. Throw in that Looker was being completely worthless and nonsensical yesterday, and it's like half the game don't even want to win.

At this stage, I want Jack or Pacman lynched, not only has Jack been acting worthless all game, but he and Esp were buddy buddy at the start of the game, and he's just being allowed to slide by being useless and scummy.

Pacman on the other hand has entered the game, and his first action is to push Vollkan for... well, nothing at all in actual fact, as his entire case is "I don't like his playstyle, policy lynch him". Absolute bullshit.

Another WIFOM heavy but interesting post from PD. Not sure if the buddying Vollkan is scum/town, and PD demonstrated at least some ability to bus (although IMO poorly) at the end of D1 in regards to Esp.

Who is a better vote? I'm not sure.
I don't think any of the neighbors (CKD, Lewarcher replacing Pom) are scummy spots as I've already said.
I believed LMP and Volkan's claim.
Pac apparaently can't be scum because of the mentioned reasons.
I'm town.

So, that would lead, I guess to LMP and Volkan. I haven't got anything less than from major town from volkan, but looking at his play style, it seems even if he was scum, he would be hard to catch in a slip up. I've had my doubts about LMP for parts of the game, a lot of it based on his overenthusiastic wish to get me lynched.

Seriously, this is our lynch today. "None of the neighbors are scum" ... "So that would lead, I guess to LMP and Volkan". ILLOGICAL, ILLOGICAL!

Based on my reread, and using PoE, I now think the only possible scum teams are:

a2rude/Pacman
a2rude/Vollkan
Vollkan/Pacman

I've pretty much reached the conclusion that Lew and CKD are town. I think today's lynch is a2rude.

Everyone please pay attention to this

: Tomorrow, if either of the JKs are dead, you cannot trust what the living JK claims the target was. I just want to make sure this is out there, so there is no confusion about it. If we're both alive, then of course we can use that information, since our role can only JK with both players consent (while we're both alive that is), but if either of us dies tonight, the other could be lying about who (if anyone) got JKed.

I'm going to work on a vote count analysis for the whole game, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to be voting a2rude today, the only other logical choices are Pacman (who was tracked one night and JK'ed one night) and Vollkan (who's only ding against him really is POE, his play has been really town), so they are clearly suboptimal to an a2rude lynch.

Also, I had mentioned earlier in the thread if anyone saw any way we could use our remaining powers to guarantee a win, and no one commented. I've been rolling it over in my head, and the nature of the split JK's makes this pretty much a non-starter. Still, if anyone thinks of something that I haven't, feel free to share.

I don't want to vote until we're ready to end the day, and I see no reason we should end the day now. I'll work on a complete game VC analysis.

[LimMePls]

I am confused. Say CKD is not mafia. Even if he convinced town to vote CKD, there are two possible outcomes:
1) CKD turns out to be a visiting role: he lied about part of his claim, but he is town;
2) CKD is now just a VT.
In both cases, Snake gets lynched the following day. Or, more likely, I will shoot him at night. What was the advantage? Does it even make sense?

I am fairly convinced that CKD is town, too, and I think that this was just a noobish attempt by mafia watcher. But still I would not define it a proof of CKD's innocence.

Here is how it read to me (putting myself into Snake's point of view):

"Oooh, I got a result seeing a townie visit a dead player. Let me suggest that he is scum that killed, so that I look so awesome and pro-town!"

Obviously it was dumb, but my point is, if Snake KNEW that CKD was his partner, then it would have required this logic:

"Ok, I know CKD killed DH. Let me accuse him with my results and hope that either A) we lynch him and I end up looking really good or B) people realize that I'm being dumb and decide that it must be dumb-town."

I think the first quote is more likely what was occuring. Thus, it is circumstantial evidence pointing further to CKD-town.

I agree with your vote, but I'm not ready to end the day.

[LimMePls]

well, I partly agree. But the first quote is not generally the most likely. Players who can play would have bussed like hell in that situation. But re-reading I had the feeling that Snake was really clueless. Summarizing, this is not an argument I would use to prove CKD is town, but it does not shake my feeling that CKD is in fact town, either.

But bussing someone requires they've done something scummy, and clearly someone who claims they have a pro-town kill being tracked to a kill isn't scummy. I don't understand how you think Snake would see this as an opportunity to bus. That is my point.

[LimMePls]

I'm going to put every vote count up, for our analysis benefit. I will color code green = town and red = scum, and I will only color code flips we've seen (ie not myself or people I have town/scum reads on), and I won't post the 0th count of the day (opening post of the day with no votes). This should make the follwing vote counts useful for everyone. I haven't analyzed them yet, although I plan to when time is permitting.

Spoiler: Day 1 Vote Counts

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(3) –

NicolBolas

,

CoolDog

,

PranaDevil

vezokpiraka(0) -
curiouskarmadog(1) -

Looker

Stef(0) -

horrordude0215

(1) - Stef

Espeonage

(1) -

Jack

vollkan(1) - curiouskarmadog

CoolDog

(0) -

Nero Cain

(0) -

zwetschenwasser

(0) -
a2rudeboy(1) - a2rudeboy
Pomegranate(0) -

Looker

(2) –

DemonHybrid

,

zwetschenwasser

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(1) -

Nero Cain

DemonHybrid

(0) -

totallynotmafia

(0) -

Not Voting(7) - vezokpiraka,

horrordude0215

,

Espeonage

, vollkan, Pomegranate,

SnakePlissken

,

totallynotmafia

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(3) –

NicolBolas

,

CoolDog

,

PranaDevil

vezokpiraka(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
Stef(0) -

horrordude0215

(1) - Stef

Espeonage

(3) –

Jack

, vollkan,

DemonHybrid

vollkan(1) - curiouskarmadog

CoolDog

(0) -

Nero Cain

(1) -

Looker

zwetschenwasser

(0) -
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(1) - a2rudeboy

Looker

(2) –

zwetschenwasser

,

Espeonage

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(2) -

Nero Cain

, Pomegranate

DemonHybrid

(0) -

totallynotmafia

(0) -

Not Voting(4) - vezokpiraka,

horrordude0215

,

SnakePlissken

,

totallynotmafia

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(2) –

NicolBolas

,

PranaDevil

vezokpiraka(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
Stef(0) -

horrordude0215

(1) - Stef

Espeonage

(4) – vollkan,

DemonHybrid

,

horrordude0215

,

CoolDog

vollkan(1) - curiouskarmadog

CoolDog

(0) -

Nero Cain

(0) -

zwetschenwasser

(0) -
a2rudeboy(1) -

Looker

Pomegranate(1) - a2rudeboy

Looker

(2) –

zwetschenwasser

,

Espeonage

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(2) -

Nero Cain

, Pomegranate

DemonHybrid

(1) -

Jack

totallynotmafia

(0) -

Not Voting(3) - vezokpiraka,

SnakePlissken

,

totallynotmafia

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(2) –

NicolBolas

,

PranaDevil

vezokpiraka(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
Stef(0) -

horrordude0215

(1) - Stef

Espeonage

(6) – vollkan,

DemonHybrid

,

horrordude0215

,

CoolDog

, a2rudeboy, Pomegranate
vollkan(1) - curiouskarmadog

CoolDog

(0) -

Nero Cain

(0) -

zwetschenwasser

(0) -
a2rudeboy(1) -

Looker

Pomegranate(0) -

Looker

(2) –

zwetschenwasser

,

Espeonage

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(0) -

DemonHybrid

(2) –

Jack

,

Nero Cain

totallynotmafia

(0) -

Not Voting(3) - vezokpiraka,

SnakePlissken

,

totallynotmafia

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(4) –

NicolBolas

,

PranaDevil

,

SnakePlissken

,

Nero Cain

vezokpiraka(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
Stef(0) -

horrordude0215

(1) - Stef

Espeonage

(7) – vollkan,

DemonHybrid

,

horrordude0215

,

CoolDog

, a2rudeboy, Pomegranate, curiouskarmadog
vollkan(0) -

CoolDog

(0) -

Nero Cain

(1) -

Jack

zwetschenwasser

(0) -
a2rudeboy(1) -

Looker

Pomegranate(0) -

Looker

(1) –

zwetschenwasser

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(0) -

DemonHybrid

(0) –

totallynotmafia

(0) -

Not Voting(3) - vezokpiraka,

totallynotmafia

,

Espeonage

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(4) –

NicolBolas

,

PranaDevil

,

SnakePlissken

,

Nero Cain

vezokpiraka(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
Stef(0) -

horrordude0215

(1) - Stef

Espeonage

(6) – vollkan,

DemonHybrid

,

horrordude0215

,

CoolDog

, a2rudeboy, Pomegranate
vollkan(0) -

CoolDog

(0) -

Nero Cain

(1) -

Jack

zwetschenwasser

(0) -

Espeonage

a2rudeboy(1) -

Looker

Pomegranate(0) -

Looker

(1) –

zwetschenwasser

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(1) - curiouskarmadog

DemonHybrid

(0) –

totallynotmafia

(0) -

Not Voting(2) - vezokpiraka,

totallynotmafia

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(4) –

NicolBolas

,

PranaDevil

,

SnakePlissken

,

Nero Cain

vezokpiraka(0) -
curiouskarmadog(2) –

Looker

, vezokpiraka
Stef(0) -

horrordude0215

(1) - Stef

Espeonage

(6) – vollkan,

DemonHybrid

,

horrordude0215

,

CoolDog

, a2rudeboy, Pomegranate
vollkan(0) -

CoolDog

(0) -

Nero Cain

(1) -

Jack

zwetschenwasser

(1) -

Espeonage

a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

Looker

(2) –

zwetschenwasser

, curiouskarmadog

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(0) -

DemonHybrid

(0) –

totallynotmafia

(0) -

Not Voting(1) -

totallynotmafia

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(3) –

NicolBolas

,

SnakePlissken

,

Nero Cain

vezokpiraka(0) -
curiouskarmadog(1) –

Looker

Stef(0) -

horrordude0215

(1) - Stef

Espeonage

(6) – vollkan,

CoolDog

, a2rudeboy, Pomegranate, vezokpiraka,

DemonHybrid

vollkan(0) -

CoolDog

(0) -

Nero Cain

(1) -

Jack

zwetschenwasser

(2) –

Espeonage

,

horrordude0215

a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

Looker

(2) –

zwetschenwasser

, curiouskarmadog

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(0) -

DemonHybrid

(0) –

totallynotmafia

(0) -

Not Voting(2) –

totallynotmafia

,

PranaDevil

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(3) –

NicolBolas

,

SnakePlissken

,

Nero Cain

vezokpiraka(0) -
curiouskarmadog(1) –

Looker

Stef(0) -

horrordude0215

(1) - Stef

Espeonage

(6) – vollkan,

CoolDog

, a2rudeboy, Pomegranate, vezokpiraka,

DemonHybrid

vollkan(0) -

CoolDog

(0) -

Nero Cain

(1) -

Jack

zwetschenwasser

(1) –

Espeonage

a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

Looker

(2) –

zwetschenwasser

,

horrordude0215

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(0) -

DemonHybrid

(0) –

singersigner

(1) - curiouskarmadog

Not Voting(2) –

PranaDevil

,

singersigner

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(1) –

Nero Cain

vezokpiraka(2) –

SnakePlissken

,

singersigner

curiouskarmadog(1) –

Looker

Stef(0) -

horrordude0215

(1) - Stef

Espeonage

(6) – vollkan,

CoolDog

, a2rudeboy, Pomegranate,

DemonHybrid

, vezokpiraka
vollkan(0) -

CoolDog

(0) -

Nero Cain

(1) -

Jack

zwetschenwasser

(1) –

Espeonage

a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

Looker

(2) –

zwetschenwasser

,

horrordude0215

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(0) -

DemonHybrid

(0) –

singersigner

(1) - curiouskarmadog

Not Voting(2) –

PranaDevil

,

NicolBolas

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(0) –
vezokpiraka(0) –
curiouskarmadog(1) –

Looker

Stef(0) -

horrordude0215

(1) – Stef

Espeonage

(4) –

CoolDog

, a2rudeboy,

PranaDevil

,

Nero Cain

vollkan(0) -

CoolDog

(1) – vezokpiraka

Nero Cain

(8) –

Jack

,

SnakePlissken

,

singersigner

, Pomegranate,

DemonHybrid

,

horrordude0215

, vollkan,

Espeonage

zwetschenwasser

(0) –
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

Looker

(2) –

zwetschenwasser

, curiouskarmadog

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(0) -

DemonHybrid

(0) –

singersigner

(0) -

Not Voting(1) –

NicolBolas

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(0) –
vezokpiraka(0) –
curiouskarmadog(0) –
Stef(1) -

Looker

horrordude0215

(1) – Stef

Espeonage

(3) – a2rudeboy,

PranaDevil

,

Nero Cain

vollkan(0) -

CoolDog

(1) –

Nero Cain

(10) –

Jack

,

SnakePlissken

,

singersigner

, Pomegranate,

DemonHybrid

,

horrordude0215

, vollkan,

Espeonage

, vezokpiraka,

CoolDog

zwetschenwasser

(0) –
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

Looker

(2) –

zwetschenwasser

, curiouskarmadog

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(0) -

DemonHybrid

(0) –

singersigner

(0) -

Not Voting(1) –

NicolBolas

Spoiler: Day 2 Vote Counts

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(2) – a2rudeboy,

PranaDevil

vezokpiraka(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -

horrordude0215

(0) -
vollkan(0) -

CoolDog

(7) – LynchMePls,

horrordude0215

,

Jack

, vollkan, vezokpiraka,

DemonHybrid

,

SnakePlissken

zwetschenwasser

(0) -
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

Looker

(0) -

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(0) -

DemonHybrid

(0) -

Not Voting(6) -

NicolBolas

, curiouskarmadog,

CoolDog

,

zwetschenwasser

, Pomegranate,

Looker

NicolBolas

(0) -

Jack

(1) – a2rudeboy
vezokpiraka(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -

horrordude0215

(0) -
vollkan(0) -

CoolDog

(8) – LynchMePls,

horrordude0215

,

Jack

, vollkan, vezokpiraka,

DemonHybrid

,

SnakePlissken

. Pomegranate

zwetschenwasser

(0) -
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

Looker

(1) -

PranaDevil

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(0) -

DemonHybrid

(0) -

Not Voting(5) -

NicolBolas

, curiouskarmadog,

CoolDog

,

zwetschenwasser

,

Looker

Spoiler: Day 3 Vote Counts

silverbullet999

(0) -

Jack

(2) - a2rudeboy,

PranaDevil

evilpacman18(0) -
curiouskarmadog(1) -

SnakePlissken

LynchMePls(0) -

horrordude0215

(0) -
vollkan(1) - evilpacman18
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

SnakePlissken

(2) -

Jack

, LynchMePls

PranaDevil

(0) -

Not Voting(4) - curiouskarmadog, vollkan, Pomegranate,

horrordude0215

silverbullet999

(0) -

Jack

(3) - a2rudeboy,

PranaDevil

, curiouskarmadog
evilpacman18(0) -
curiouskarmadog(1) -

SnakePlissken

LynchMePls(0) -

horrordude0215

(0) -
vollkan(1) - evilpacman18
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

SnakePlissken

(1) -

Jack

PranaDevil

(0) -

Not Voting(4) - vollkan, Pomegranate,

horrordude0215

, LynchMePls

silverbullet999

(0) -

Jack

(4) - a2rudeboy,

PranaDevil

, curiouskarmadog,

SnakePlissken

evilpacman18(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -

horrordude0215

(0) -
vollkan(1) - evilpacman18
a2rudeboy(1) -

Jack

Pomegranate(0) -

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(1) - LynchMePls

Not Voting(4) - vollkan, Pomegranate,

horrordude0215

,

silverbullet999

silverbullet999

(0) -

Jack

(3) - a2rudeboy, curiouskarmadog,

SnakePlissken

evilpacman18(1) -

PranaDevil

curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -

horrordude0215

(0) -
vollkan(1) - evilpacman18
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(3) - LynchMePls,

Jack

,

silverbullet999

Not Voting(3) - vollkan, Pomegranate,

horrordude0215

silverbullet999

(0) -

Jack

(4) - a2rudeboy, curiouskarmadog,

SnakePlissken

, evilpacman18
evilpacman18(1) -

PranaDevil

curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -

horrordude0215

(0) -
vollkan(0) -
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(3) - LynchMePls,

Jack

,

silverbullet999

Not Voting(3) - vollkan, Pomegranate,

horrordude0215

silverbullet999

(0) -

Jack

(3) - a2rudeboy,

SnakePlissken

, evilpacman18
evilpacman18(1) -

PranaDevil

curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -

Antihero

(0) -
vollkan(0) -
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(2) - LynchMePls,

silverbullet999

Not Voting(5) - vollkan, Pomegranate,

Antihero

, curiouskarmadog,

Jack

silverbullet999

(0) -

Jack

(3) - a2rudeboy,

SnakePlissken

, evilpacman18
evilpacman18(1) -

PranaDevil

curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -

Antihero

(0) -
vollkan(0) -
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

SnakePlissken

(0) -

PranaDevil

(2) - LynchMePls,

silverbullet999

Not Voting(5) - vollkan, Pomegranate,

Antihero

, curiouskarmadog,

Jack

silverbullet999

(3) -

PranaDevil

, Pomegranate,

SnakePlissken

Jack

(1) - a2rudeboy
evilpacman18(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -

Antihero

(0) -
vollkan(0) -
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(0) -

SnakePlissken

(1) -

Jack

PranaDevil

(3) - LynchMePls,

silverbullet999

, evilpacman18

Not Voting(3) -

Antihero

, curiouskarmadog, vollkan

silverbullet999

(1) - Pomegranate

Jack

(0) -
evilpacman18(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -

Antihero

(0) -
vollkan(0) -
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(1) -

Antihero

SnakePlissken

(4) -

Jack

, LynchMePls, volkkan,

PranaDevil

PranaDevil

(2) -

silverbullet999

, evilpacman18

Not Voting(3) - curiouskarmadog, a2rudeboy,

SnakePlissken

silverbullet999

(1) - Pomegranate

Jack

(0) -
evilpacman18(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -

Antihero

(0) -
vollkan(0) -
a2rudeboy(0) -
Pomegranate(1) -

Antihero

SnakePlissken

(6) -

Jack

, LynchMePls, volkkan,

PranaDevil

,

silverbullet999

, evilpacman18

PranaDevil

(0) -

Not Voting(3) - curiouskarmadog, a2rudeboy,

SnakePlissken

Spoiler: Day 4 Vote Counts

Jack

(0) -
evilpacman18(1) -

PranaDevil

curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -
vollkan(1) - evilpacman18
a2rudeboy(1) -

Jack

lewarcher82(0) -

PranaDevil

(2) - volkkan, LynchMePls

Not Voting(3) - curiouskarmadog, a2rudeboy, lewarcher82

Jack

(0) -
evilpacman18(1) -

PranaDevil

curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(0) -
vollkan(0) -
a2rudeboy(1) -

Jack

lewarcher82(0) -

PranaDevil

(4) - volkkan, LynchMePls, curiouskarmadog, evilpacman18

Not Voting(2) - a2rudeboy, lewarcher82

Jack

(0) -
evilpacman18(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -
LynchMePls(1) -

PranaDevil

vollkan(0) -
a2rudeboy(1) - lewarcher82
lewarcher82(0) -

PranaDevil

(5) - volkkan, LynchMePls, curiouskarmadog, evilpacman18,

Jack

Not Voting(1) - a2rudeboy,

[LimMePls]

A few observations so far:

D1 Count 10 to Count 12 we go from:

Espeonage(6) – vollkan, CoolDog, a2rudeboy, Pomegranate, DemonHybrid, vezokpiraka
Nero Cain(1) - Jack

to:

Espeonage(4) – CoolDog, a2rudeboy, PranaDevil, Nero Cain
CoolDog(1) – vezokpiraka
Nero Cain(8) – Jack, SnakePlissken, singersigner, Pomegranate, DemonHybrid, horrordude0215, vollkan, Espeonage

to:

Espeonage(3) – a2rudeboy, PranaDevil, Nero Cain
Nero Cain(10) – Jack, SnakePlissken, singersigner, Pomegranate, DemonHybrid, horrordude0215, vollkan, Espeonage, vezokpiraka, CoolDog


Remembering context, the game was coming up on deadline, so that explains the speed of the shift. Living players that made the jump: Pom, Vollkan, vezo/pacman. Of particular interest is vezo/pacman parking his vote uselessly on CoolDog before moving it to NC. Also to note is that a2rude rode the Esp wagon when it started picking up steam early in the day, and never moved off.

***

Another interesting set of events is a2 and Prana voting Jack all of D2, and the first half of D3. Especially when it came after Jack votes SnakePlissken. The sequence of events in the thread (literally, with no other words or posts inbetween) at the beginning of D3 is:

hello everyone! i am replaced in!... and umm... yeah... I'll..

"read up".... soon....

when i'm freeer...

if it isnt obvious, demonhybrid was my kill....thought his play was scummy.

I have got to reread the game.....thanks mod for helping out.

vote:snakeplissken

vote: jack

vote: jack

Prana then puts his vote elsewhere when he is coming under some serious pressure, while the Jack wagon stays pretty full. At this point is when a2rude makes the following post:

@Pom- And who are we lynching today? Pacman's vote puts Jack back at l-2, if PD were to switch his vote back to where it's been the majority of the game, that would be l-1, and I'm sure someone around here would be willing to hammer. As far as I'm concerned, Jack is the scummiest slot in the game right now, for reasons I've previously mentioned. Why, if Jack could be a future lynch is he not today's lynch?

When reading this for context/scum-intent it really reads: "Hey Prana, get back on this wagon so we can lock up this mislynch". When this fails and the Snake wagon is impending, we get this gem:

unvote

Believe it or not, I'm actually starting to come around to the idea of Jack being town. Although I'm still against some of his earlier play. Jack, any chance we can get that bandwagon analysis you promised way way back.

This game must be giving Vollkan massive headaches...I believe that's the second time we've seen that gif this game.

I was going to put a vote down...but I can't figure who i think is the scummiest right now.

Yeah, this is pretty obv. I still don't think we should end the day yet, there is a lot of information we can still gather if we take our time, but a2 is unquestionably my vote for the day.

[LimMePls]

Exactly! If Y (scum) really wanted to destroy B1 (lew) and was being kept informed by Smith (me/LMP), then in July Y (N4) Y should have bombed B1.

The problem with this logic is that Y has to survive longer than just bombing B1, and Y could not kill B1 N4 without pretty much confirming all doubt to Smith that he is a traitor. In other words, you are a smart enough player for me to wonder if you chose to not kill lew for exactly this reason. So killing a player who has demonstrated solid scumdar (if not exactly a paragon of pro-town play) in Jack serves a double purpose (removes a player whose reads have been pretty spot on, while increasing the wifom quotient in the remaining neighborhood, doubt to your alignment).

**Deep breath** All of that being said, I think our buddy Occum and his sharp knife is really relevant here. The simplest explanation (Vollkan isn't scum) may actually be the correct one.

As I've stated many times now, I think this is EXACTLY the stuff the setup was designed for (mass paranoia between the neighbors). In fact, I think the nature of the neighborhoods is actually in a way skewed towards scum. While the power roles of the neighborhoods get the benefit of a "backup" player (in that scum can't kill 1 person to eliminate the power), it also breeds a lot of infighting amongst the town players (ala CKD/TNM) which can only benefit scum.

[LimMePls]

Just thinking, at the point when Snake claimed was he in imminent risk of lynch?

Not at all. He came out with it like "Hey guys, I tracked him to a scum kill, he must be scum" at the beginning of that day. It lead to my "well you're a watcher, you shouldn't have tracked him anywhere" observation, which lead to him getting new results because his track results were incorrect.

But at that point your whole initial argument falls apart because you are no longer assuming that scum would prioritise vig over tracker, thus making N3 non-anomalous.

This is logically incorrect. They still would prefer a vig kill N3 than tracker, but given the opportunity to block the vig and kill the tracker, they're happy with that result. It doesn't mean they don't think killing the vig is not important.

We can go round and round on this all you want, but in the end, I think it still holds true that the vig not being targeted N3 over the tracker when the vig also got JK'ed is circumstantial evidence to one of us being scum.

At this point, I would like to know what both jailers - in particular LMP - think of evilpacman.

I've made my opinion perfectly clear I think, but let me elaborate further.

If I were an unlimited day killing vig, I'd kill in the following order:

a2rude, pacman, vollkan, ckd, lew.

[LimMePls]

Hmmm.

I think I've made myself perfectly clear:

Yeah, this is pretty obv. I still don't think we should end the day yet, there is a lot of information we can still gather if we take our time, but a2 is unquestionably my vote for the day.

What is the rush? There is still a lot of information that can be gathered.

@CKD: Have you reread the game? Have you analyzed the vote counts I provided above? Do you have any comments to the stuff I brought out of them, or the stuff I brought up after my reread? Why is lynching now better than taking our time and analyzing the game as best we can? Did you even ready my posts where I mentioned multiple times that a2rude is the clear lynch, but I'm not ready for a lynch?

[LimMePls]

Of particular interest is vezo/pacman parking his vote uselessly on CoolDog before moving it to NC.

What's your point here?

It seems like an odd thing to do. Why was it moved to CD (who OBVIOUSLY wasn't going to be the lynch with deadline looming large) before going with the flow where everyone else was moving. Since it was vezo (who bandwagons UNMERCIFULLY in every game I've played with him) its curious that he just didn't follow the leader straight to Nero Cain. Since the slot is still in the game, strange behavior is certainly relevant.

[LimMePls]

I'm alive in two games at this moment...the other one is a bastard mod, with a lot of quick posting and not much analysis being required...thus it's easiest to post there. And if you did a wide span of my meta, you would see i lurk pretty regardless of alignment. At this point, there's also not anything I feel I can do is this game to really clear myself, as I'm already the designated lynch and LMP/others are just trying to draw out the day for more info.

If you were pro-town you'd offer up your analysis of the events of the game, and try and give us somewhere to go after you are lynched, even if you thought you wouldn't be able to stop yourself from being lynched. The above statement reads like the words of someone who only cares if they live or not in the game, not the overall team goal of town winning.

@Vollkan: I've played a number of games with Vezok, unfortunately none of them has he been scum. It's entirely possible this behavior is null. It still looked noteworthy to me.

If everyone is fine with ending the day then so be it, I've done a full reread and VC analysis, I don't know what else I can do, and pretty much everyone else seems content to lynch.

Unvote
Vote: a2rude

[LimMePls]

Pacman is his buddy.

[LimMePls]

L-?

nvm found it.

I refuse to support this wagon.

If you refuse to support this wagon, why did you need to know what the L number was?

Why can't scum be lazy?

Would a link to a2rude playing lazy-scum change your mind? Try here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=15285

[LimMePls]

Lynch- I can provide 2 or 3 lazytown games for every lazyscum game. Here's a hint: see the list at the bottom of my sig? Try most of those.

Just because there are 2 or 3 lazytown games for every lazyscum game does not mean you are more likely town than scum, it just means that you are always lazy, and you happen to be town more often than scum (which follows perfectly the laws of probability). This is so underwhelming it isn't even funny.

The purpose of that post was that you being lazy != you being town, which pacman's "I refuse to vote him, his play is lazy" would imply.

Someone needs to hammer.

[LimMePls]

^^pacman's "I refuse to vote him, his play is lazy" suggests that you being lazy means you are less likely town. The link I pointed to is a refutation of this observation.

In other words: in regards to a2rude lazy is independent of alignment, and should not be used as a reason to not vote him.

[LimMePls]

If you're town, I swear to god.

[LimMePls]

Yes, but if you are town, at the very least force someone else to commit to your lynch for our benefit of future analysis. YOU ARE COMPLETELY WORTHLESS. If you're scum, then good. If you are town though, you're hitting the blacklist.

[LimMePls]

It matters ALOT which of them was willing to hammer. You better be scum, that's all I'm saying.

[LimMePls]

vollkan town = dead in the first couple of days...got it, thats how I am reading you now buddy.

This would have failed you, we JK'ed him the first couple days, so as town he would have been alive.

Pom/lew deserve props for their win. Those hasty votes on D6 make me crazy. All game I kept saying "we have time, lets use it" and no one town aligned seemed at all interested in helping.

D5 in hindsight is hilarious. 6 players, and I'm the only town one doing any work at all. Felt like that for much of this game.

Great job mod(s)! Thanks for the game.

GG SKs, it was well played.

[LimMePls]

Snake, I disagree with your analysis. For one, he did not buss Prana with "speed". In fact, he only made any serious pushed on PD after I was going after PD with gusto and asked for other people to comment on it.

Frankly I think you're looking for somewhere to place blame for your loss. That's understandable, but I assure you, the blame doesn't lie with Vollkan. There is a reason he was still alive on D5, and Espeonage, You, and PD weren't.

[LimMePls]

^^This is what kept making me doubt Vollkan as scum. It made no sense to me that one of the neighbors would be scum and they wouldn't use their scum night kill N1 to eliminate the other neighbor and have full control over the JK ability. And if not N1, certainly N2 or even N3. It just didn't make sense to me.

[LimMePls]

^^ doesn't work so well when it becomes the first post of the next page.

[LimMePls]

The whole game, vollkan was saying a lot but moving very little. It was like his posts arrived nowhere on purpose. That's how I knew he was scum. Too bad I was ignored the whole game. And I think even if vollkan was lynched, the outcome wouldn't have changed. Lew destroyed us.

You were ignored because you were manipulated into admitting that your case was a policy case. If you had responded to that argument with this, you might have had some ground to stand on. But when others said "Vollkan always plays like this" and you then said "Policy Lynch then?" you'd lost any credibility you had.

[LimMePls]

Pom was scummy.

WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I WAS VOTING HER?????

Voting other scum? Amirite?