Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[Purple Orange]

Hello, folks! Confirming, and will post something a bit more substantial as soon as I can finish giving the thread another read.

I looked through the thread earlier today while waiting for a response from Alduskkel, and my gut impression was lewarcher as town, werewolf as mafia, and everyone else confusing as heck. Not really sure that's the most likely combination, however, given Admiral's posts, and I need to see if it can actually stand up to scrutiny.

Will try to get something up by tomorrow...hopefully it won't be

too

lengthy a text wall.

[Purple Orange]

@ Admiral: Did you miss the part where I said I'd post a more substantive post sometime today?

werewolf555

His attacks and votes struck me as newb scum, having a field day, trying to be "helpful" and join the party and get someone lynched, rather than newb townie actually trying to find mafia.

For example, this first actual serious vote of his, which had some ridiculous reasoning:

This is quite a strange defense. He ate a trunk full of psilocybin???????
This is the dumbest thing that I have ever heard, seems like a scum buddy is trying to stick up for another.

Vote: Gonzoooo

But this post was the one that made me go, "zow, scum!"

Perhaps we should lynch Consig, and move from there on to (if he is scum) his most obvious scumbuddies should be lynched the following day.

The sheeping was blatant, and the way it was worded set off additional triggers, though I'm still having a hard time quantifying why.

The "we" is also a potential scumslip, implicating both him and lew, but it could also just be him talking to the whole town, suggesting a strategy that folks could take.

mallowgeno

Also suspicious to me because of quick sheeping is mallow, with his "I agree with DJ" post. Didn't find his apologetic backing off any better, and if anything, MORE suspicious.

The only reason I voted lewarcher was to humor Don.

unvote

I hate the rvs.

And what's with "humoring Don"? Why should he care what Don thought? Was there any reason for him to follow/humor Don over someone else?

His other posts have been throwaway comments, contributing nothing. At least werewolf sometimes actually tries to argue things.

I'm OK voting for either of these guys; both have been doing the "active lurker" thing (mallow moreso than werewolf). My argument for wolf is currently more subjective than my argument for mallow, so I'll

Vote: mallow

for now, so that I can at least get an opinion on record here.

Lewark

Reasons for initial gut town read:
* I thought his distinction between DJ's and mallow's vote was completely legitimate. DJ offered a reason; mallow sheeped without offering one. Not sure what's so hard about this. See sapo's posts;they express my own thoughts pretty well.
* Learning that English was not lew's first language inclined me to give him the benefit of the doubt in a lot of cases, particularly his own use of caustic language, and his frustrated and confusing reaction to some attacks.
* Because I thought the DJ/mallow vote distinction was a legitimate point, I didn't think Gonzoooo's first attack was legitimate. And this colored my view of the later lew/Gonz interaction. I've seen bold mafia lead the town on a ring-around-the-rosie before, and was more afraid of being taken in by Gonzoooo than by anyone else. I've also seen bold players hound people, and take the hounded player's negative reactions as proof of the rightness of their case. Confirmation bias, or whatever. Heck, Gonzooo made the point himself about some people being VI/easy lynches. And due to the things mentioned above, this was how I was reading lew.

Current position: null read. The "English-as-a-second-language" mess is a bunch of white noise that I'm having a

lot

of difficulty screening out. Until I find a way to properly quantify how much influence the language difference should on my reads, I have zero confidence in any conclusions I've reached about lew.

Gonzoooo

I'd obviously have to die to prove it, but Gonzoooo was right, and Consig was "confused town," not mafia. And stepping out and preventing the lynch of a VI isn't something scum has much motivation to do. Sure, I can think of an instance or two where it would make sense, but the odds are low enough that I'll mark Gonzo's defense of Consig as a strong towntell, until something proves otherwise.

[Purple Orange]

Do you have any idea when this is going to happen?

Working on it. I'll re-read the thread (probably after a decent night's sleep) using lewarcher's suggestion just to ignore the issue, and see what I come up with. (Thanks, lew -- probably is the best solution to this).

Also can you explain your vote on mallow again? Especially this line: "My argument for wolf is currently more subjective than my argument for mallow".

My strongest reason for going after wolf is the first sentence I posted. "His accusations and votes struck me as newb scum, having a field day, trying to be "helpful" and join the party and get someone lynched, rather than newb townie actually trying to find mafia." How does one prove an interpretation like that? I tried to point out why I got that impression, but it's pretty much still a pure gut read.

Mallow has sheeped like wolf has, and has actively lurked without positive contribution

more

than wolf has. My gut read on him isn't as strong, possibly just because he's been more quiet. But when I compare posts, his are ones I feel I can more concretely point to as lurking scum.

If it turns out I should have actually voted for wolf over mallow, I'll kick myself big time for this. There's still a week or so to switch over, though. And I'd like to hear more from mallow, in either case.

Mod, I've currently got a vote on mallow.

[Purple Orange]

huh, guys: I did not know the meaning of humor, but I started studying English when I was 4 years old, so you should not think that my whole game is conditioned by a linguistic imparement... it normally isn't, and this is the first time that this problem is so frequently referred to in a thread. So Purple, if I was a native speaker would I look scummy to you? If so, please vote me, and explain why.

Apologies -- finished the re-read, but this is going to be shorter than I would have liked; have ended up with some RL stuff to deal with the next couple days. :/ Basically, it was instances of sarcasm and arrogance in response to minor pressure, and occasional things I read as nervous attempts at humor, that I saw as scummy. Stuff like that isn't necessarily scummy, but can certainly be read as such, and I've wavered back and forth between doing so. Calling it an English-as-a-second-language issue was misguided of me; it's more an issue of your playstyle, and me trying to determine whether you'd act that way whether you were scum or not.

Your most recent posts haven't struck me as scummy, and I'm more confident voting for wolf or mallow than I am for you at this point.

And another note:
People are jumping on wolf over this switch of vote and "easier to lynch" thing, but I actually think he actually explained himself coherently. (Whether there's scumslips in the language he actually chose, and whether his explanation is a plausible one, are different matters. But it's at least coherent).

Wolf said in his 3rd post, where he voted for Gonzoooo, that he believed Gonzoooo and Consig were scumbuddies. Consig later started to get more votes than Gonzoooo, and kept engaging in behavior that was making him more suspect than Gonzoooo. He looked like the easier of the two to get lynched first. So wolf moved his vote over to Consig, to aid the process, and to try to make sure at least one of his suspects got lynched. (This is what the "economical" use of the vote referred to).

In terms of the outline of his reasoning, I don't see it as being very different from me saying in my post that I suspect both wolf and mallow of being scum, and am willing to vote for either of them. As I think wolf's first post was a garbage reason pulled out of thin air, though, the fact that he's consistently stuck to his case doesn't make me suspect him any less.

[Purple Orange]

Why should he care what Don thought? Was there any reason for him to follow/humor Don over someone else?

Is there a reason why I should/shouldn't follow someone in the RVS? Get over that.

vote werewolf

Usually people don't follow a vote to "humor" other people -- they follow it because they think the person is possibly correct. It was a very strange reason you gave, and I thought the word choice might have indicated some previous connection between you guys. Have you played a game together in the past?

[Purple Orange]

* smashbro was right about the Zhero wagon being ridiculously fast, but going through it looking for anything solid has been a nightmare. I do finally have some brief notes on it, and will post once I finish double-checking them.

* People seem to be waiting on mallow to post before saying anything more about him, so I'll hold off for a bit as well

-----------

@ Lew:

That said, I have no idea what his reading of me is, and at the moment I do not care. I want rather everyone to tell me what they think of Thad, since he is the only new-entry who actually posted some real content so far.

What exactly is your purpose in asking this? I personally don't mind answering, but some folks prefer not to share reads if they're currently coming up "town."

I like Thad's directness, and his blunt and to-the-point questions and posts. I was impressed by the questions he asked me about my own posts. As you noted, he also seems to be able to stick to his guns, but also avoid tunneling, which is a balancing act I haven't seen a lot of folks managing well, myself included. tl;dr, he's awesome and I want to be like him when I grow up, and I think it's more likely he's using his powers for good rather than for evil this round. If he's mafia, he's damn scary.

@ Implosion:

@Purple Orange: please elaborate on this:

Gonzoooo

I'd obviously have to die to prove it, but Gonzoooo was right, and Consig was "confused town," not mafia. And stepping out and preventing the lynch of a VI isn't something scum has much motivation to do. Sure, I can think of an instance or two where it would make sense, but the odds are low enough that I'll mark Gonzo's defense of Consig as a strong towntell, until something proves otherwise.

Gonzoooo was not scum defending a scumbuddy when he defended Consig. He was either a townsperson trying to save a VI from a lynch, or he was scum doing the same, to earn towncred. It's a heap of WIFOM as to which one it really is. But I was willing to bet that the simpler explanation -- "Gonz is town" -- was the correct one.

I'm also suspicious of Purple Orange for a very passive response to the werewolf wagon. I'm not entirely sure if it's passive support or passive dislike, but I think it's the former. In post 214, Purple both dismisses what he sees as reasoning for most of the werewolf wagon, and says that he still thinks werewolf is scum. It looks to me like he didn't want to be on the wagon, yet he wanted to make it look like he thought werewolf was scum. Or, he wanted no connection or even a strong disconnection to the wagon, but still had to uphold his previous position that werewolf was scum.

It was passive support (if I'm understanding your terms correctly). Wolf was my secondary suspect throughout the day. I wavered once or twice (especially during the Zehro case), but rereading his ISOs I always came back to him, and was perfectly fine with his lynch.

I said upfront that I thought my case against mallow was stronger, but that I was fine seeing wolf lyched, and was was willing to vote for him ( paragraph 4 under "mallow" ). I'm certainly not going to shirk responsibility his death; I consider myself as responsible for his lynch as some of the folks who voted for him. Wolf was one of the two people that I stepped out and explicitly argued was scum, and while I certainly objected to some of the arguments people were using against him (214), and thought they should reexamine parts of their cases, I wasn't about to object to his lynch. I thought there was enough to implicate him regardless. Other players cast the final votes for him, but I would have been glad to as well, had push come to shove.

I went with my gut on werewolf, based on an overall "tone" of his posts that I couldn't shake no matter how many times I reread them. I was wrong, and I contributed to his death, whether I technically voted or not, and I'll take whatever blame people care to dish out for that.

[Purple Orange]

@purlpe: no, Smash was NOT right about the wagon on Zhero. I categorically reject this statement and I will keep rejecting it til endgame. There was perhaps 1 scum on the bw, but I do not think there were more than 1, and the reasons were genuine and the votes were only 4. Smash could be a smart townie who reached a correct conclusion following weak arguments or a scum player who had no idea that zhero was cop, but knew he was town and wanted to gain towncred by attacking the bw.

There were five votes on Zhero when Smash made his post about the speed of the wagon, and they'd occurred in the space of one page. No one except the mafia knew that wolf was town at the time, and for anyone who still thought he was scum, the wagon on Zhero looked like it could be a quick and opportunistic way for the mafia to maybe evade a lynch of one of their members.

Not going to argue with your scum interpretation of Smash's actions -- it's quite possible that's what he was doing. But the speed of the wagon got my radar up as well, regardless of whether the initial reasons for the votes were good.


Concerning votes and wagon itself:
The fact that everyone was on one of two competing town bandwagons isn't the most helpful scenario for identifying mafia. For one thing, wolf was probably going to be lynched anyway, so there was no absolute need for the mafia to start a second bandwagon. Moreover, I agree that Zhero's vote and accompanying reasoning was suspect. (I can elaborate why if you need me to -- just trying to decrease the length of this text wall). Because of that, I can't pinpoint any move over to him as suspiciously unjustified, except maybe sapo's. And she and wolf were the only people that stuck to their vote on Zhero...and they were not mafia.

The first two folks that moved over to Zhero (gonzoooo and Admiral) were previously on wolf, who was a pretty darn safe wagon for the mafia. Unless they suspected the wolf wagon might soon crumble, and wanted a backup plan, I can't see much reason for them to switch over if they were mafia.

#3 was lew, who moved from Gonzoooo. Gonzoooo and lew were the primary people discussing the reasoning for moving over. And I agree it was solid. (Admiral agreed with the case, and quoted the parts in particular that made him change his mind).

D_J came in fourth, and his post basically just said, "I agree with the guys above me." No quotes. He came off of the mallow wagon, which, until the Zhero mess, had been the secondary wagon. He later made a post urging people to finish pushing the wagon to L-1.

Fifth was wolf, also quoting and agreeing with the Gonzooo reasoning, though I think his vote was just basic self-preservation.

Sixth was sapo, after the roleclaim, for reasons that apparently had to do with not understanding the setup. She also came from the wolf wagon.

Don Jon is the person that, aside from sapo, I believe had the most questionable activity when it came to the Zhero wagon. But a) this is largely influenced by the fact that I suspect mallow to be scum. And b) because of Zhero's scummy vote, any vote on Zhero CAN be seen as completely justified.

tl;dr:

It caused a lot of ruckus and got a PR outed and killed, but the Zhero wagon isn't the best place to look if we're trying to identify mafia. (I unfortunately had to hack through it to realize this). I believe D_J's activity was the most suspect, but this isn't saying much.

[Purple Orange]

You speak of a bw on mallow, I fail to see it. He was never close to get lynched. He got 2 votes, dj's and yours.

Point taken -- there's some pressure, but calling it a wagon was too strong.

Smash was on him for a while (he switched to wolf right after Don Jon added a third vote). Zhero accused and voted for mallow (pushing him up to three votes again), in the post that triggered the wagon on

him

. Implosion accuses mallow of scummy actions in 212, concurrent with Gonzoooo's vote on Zhero.

[Purple Orange]

Thank you. I now had a closer look at smash's switch (#198). Interesting timing. Question is: are the reasons he gives for his vote on werewolf convincing?

#198 for reference

Depending on how fast smashbro types his posts, it could have just been simultaneous posting and cooincidence, so I'm wary of reading too much into the timing.

I can buy switching from an inactive to an active scum suspect, in order to exert actual pressure, but I don't think it's the most persuasive argument ever. (He's gone back to pushing a mallow lynch, so at least he's consistent there). And I also heard wolf's overall language as "off", though I was having a hard time identifying why.

Smash jumps on the "economical" and "easier to lynch" comments, however, and misrepresents them, and completely misses where they fits in the context of wolf's larger argument. (As does implosion in #186 -- "easier to lynch" is not the "only reason" he switched his vote over. My #180 isn't faultless in this regard, either -- I missed the fact he wasn't necessarily flat out sheeping, but could also be logically drawing on an earlier connection he'd asserted between Gonzoooo and Consig).

I am unable to understand implosion's case on purple. I would like an explanation with quotes from her posts.

I believe Implosion is saying that I vocally pushed the wolf wagon, but a) didn't back my push with a vote, thereby avoiding out of official wagon analysis, and b) made a post (#214) that looked an attempt to distance myself from a wolf lynch.

[Purple Orange]

Err...yeah, what they said. sapo's dead. The vig killed them. For roughly the same reasons you voted for him, probably.

I had planned to go after mallow, and if he flipped scum, go after D_J. Still trying to figure out if there's anything to this Smash case, though.

And don't be silly. You should never fully trust anyone.

[Purple Orange]

Why should he care what Don thought? Was there any reason for him to follow/humor Don over someone else?

Is there a reason why I should/shouldn't follow someone in the RVS? Get over that.

vote werewolf

Usually people don't follow a vote to "humor" other people -- they follow it because they think the person is possibly correct. It was a very strange reason you gave, and I thought the word choice might have indicated some previous connection between you guys. Have you played a game together in the past?

@Don Jon
As mallow never answered my question (and is now gone): Have you and mallow ever played in a game together before? Or has he hosted a game you've been in, or vice versa? I'll go and look through every single one of your games if I have to, but that's a lot of work.

Obviously I could be ridiculously tunneling over one word, but as long as this question remains unanswered, I'm not going to just "get over" this. The fact that you voted for mallow (setup #182, vote #197) shortly after I first asked about your association doesn't exactly alleviate matters, although you HAD voiced vague suspicion of him before this, in #143, due to a theory that we might have a very lurky scumteam:

i could be persuaded to the mallow wagon at this point.

sss: the move was "oppurtunistic" in the way that your vote went to the bigger wagon instead of pressuring your top suspect. shit happens. if you are sincere about mallow i am willing to listen. would like more from him atm.

we could have an extremely active town and an extremely lurky scum team.

Your actual reason for voting for him was awful, though -- "competing bandwagons are good" tells me zilch about what you really thought about mallow at the time of post #197. If it was a genuine vote, why did you think mallow was scum then? What made you willing to move over in #197, in preference to Zhero, where your vote was previously located?


@Lew
You were the other person looking into DJ's meta, right? All I could tell is that he doesn't post much in any of his rounds...it's all short, jabby posts like in this round (the one lengthy one at #115 excepted, and he does sometimes post one longer post in his other games). I learned zilch from my trawling; did you find anything better?

[Purple Orange]

PO: i have only modded one game and i am pretty sure he was not in it. i have played with him before, but not extensively. a couple of the games were probably recent ones. he may have modded a game i was in, but if you are extremely interested you will have to do the research yourself. i have a pretty extensive history on the site at this point.

I did find at least one where you were both players, and playing at the same time. Doesn't mitigate the suspicion completely, but as there's a possible alternate explanation, I'm not gonna go base an entire lynch case off of it or anything.

@ lew: The main problem I have with your posts right now is that you have narrowed down for the scum who the vig is. Why would you do that?

^Yep. I'm assuming the question is rhetorical, though, or you'd just be prolonging the discussion, right?

[Purple Orange]

I actually dig this alot. Keeping my eye on a dj-mallow connection.

Why'd you like it so much? Where were

you

seeing a mallow-DJ connection?

PO - what are your thoughts on the experience crew all honing in on smash? Do any of them bother you like they bother me? Am I crazy?

My initial read on smashbro, when I came into the thread, was that he was town. I'm trying to reread and get a fresh read on both him and his accusers right now. If one or more of his attackers is scum, they are good. (If you're scum, you're really good too. Still not liking the "trust completely" flattery you threw at me).

I don't like lew's talking about the vig, and if Thad won't just up and say "rolefishing,'" I will. That's what it looks like, and that's what it has ended up doing, regardless of his actual intent. Pretty sure there was a way to discuss sapo's vote (though why are we discussing a dead person's vote?) and the Zhero wagon without also dragging the vigilante into the mess.

DJ joined the conversation rather than starting it, but he kept at it even when lew said "Gonzoooo's right, let's stop." I don't care for his fixation on the issue, especially considering his minimal commentary about other matters throughout this thread. (This might just be a side effect of the fact that he's actually POSTING now, though, vs. just throwing a quick jab up every now and then).

I need to finish a re-read, but I feel the DJ wagon is rather rickety and flimsy at the moment. My read on him throughout the thread had been town (though his short jabby posting style admittedly makes him difficult for me to pin down anything solid), and it was mainly his actions in relation to mallow that made me question this. Didn't see anything convincing in Smash's post on him.

I don't have enough on him to feel I can legitimately vote for him yet, except as a way to keep forcing some longer posts out of him, and to ensure a competing bandwagon. (I certainly agree that two bandwagons are good). More posts and content from him = good thing, as I'm having a hard time getting much out of his previous posts. And if an additional vote will help with that, I'll be glad to throw another one his way.

The argument about DJ's "move on" language is silly, though (@ Thad and smash, and a bit at lew). Yeah, coming from me who was/is hung up on the "humor" thing, but hey. As far as I could tell, he was just saying, "let's push the guy to L-1, see what he does, then either lynch him, or rinse and repeat the process. ACTION!!!" It's the fact that he's pushing for other people to act, without bothering to contribute much himself other than noisy impetus to act, that's the problem.

Again, I'd prefer to complete a re-read before officially jumping on the wagon of a guy I had only the minimalist suspicion on, as of a day or two ago. What I really want to see is a mallow replacement, NOW.

Ah, in that case I see your point. As somebody who has fallen prey to the same behaviour in the past (cruise control due to boredom), that's why I asked DJ for meta in my previous post. He's not a newb, so if boredom is something he has a tendency towards, there should be precedent.

Don posts (mostly) short hard-to-pin-down posts in all his games I've looked at. If someone else wants to look and confirm my take on his meta, that'd be swell.

[Purple Orange]

Woo, prod.

I'm alive, and currently halfway through reread of the thread. Been slacking a bit there. :/ I don't think posting my quarter-baked conclusions based on half the content would be optimal, so holding off until I finish the read. Should have something by tomorrow at latest. Trying to finish this evening.

Mod: How are we coming on that Mallow replacement?

I'm not exactly a fan of extensions, but the dearth of content from that slot is really crippling my attempts to analyze stuff. Need to hear SOMETHING, ANYTHING from it to narrow down some crazy variables. So...

5thing the extension request, if we can't get someone in here pretty much immediately.

[Purple Orange]

Also @Purple, the extension's already been granted.

Oh, woops. Yah, I see it now. Thanks, Alduskkel.

[Purple Orange]

Ugh, finished, sorta.
* Too little content from Mallow for me to be comfortable calling for a D2 lynch on the guy. He active-lurked like hell on D1, I don't like his interaction with DJ, and his move to the werewolf wagon definitely looks opportunistic (high point IMO of Smash's case). But it's a thin foundation on which to build a D2 lynch, when everyone else is exhibiting a ridiculous amount of content and connections (however befuddling), and will provide us with more to go off of post-flip. I really don't like having to removing him from consideration due to dearth of content, though, so for about the 50th time, we need a replacement ASAP.

(I know you're trying, mod. :(Are you allowed to repost your advertisement in the thread?).

* Did the body snatchers get to DJ overnight? I swear, pretty much every frikkin post of his D1 I have marked as "lol, town" and every one D2 as "wut?? scum." He was pretty laid back the first day, but jumped in with zingy and original points every now and then, considered a vareity of cases, and wasn't outright asking other people to do all his work for him. Also didn't engage in lengthy useless-at-best conversations about the mertis of a vigilante killing a dead townie.

* Thad and lew are not BOTH scum, unless there is a beautifully exquisite bus involved.

* Thad is hard to read. Lew's giving off conflicting reads.

* Smash cases on mallow and DJ were both weak. A high point or two to both, but when you're straw-clutching and nit-picking at every single post, you're bound to hit something.

* DJ case on implosion is weak. Not entirely comfortable with implosion, but the scummiest thing I've seen from him is misrepresentation of wolf and me as the basis of his votes.

@ DJ:

Not making a case yourself + getting others to vote = scum.

false.

What? How so?

@Thad:

I wonder why thad addressed his criticism to me alone (#345).

ThAd 345: referral to the first lew possible rolefishing without mentioning the last 10 highly relevant posts... wut?

^Thirded, actually. Why only mention lew? (And, yeah, I realize I followed you on this, and failed to officially include DJ when I said "rolefishing." My bad, there).

And why the WIFOM about the extension? Didn't peg you as someone who'd do that.

Finally, why the werewolf vote in #193? Not that I can't deduce one or more reasons from previous posts, but I'd like to hear your specific reason(s).

@ a dead guy and everyone

Holy crap, lew is town as hell here.

regarding the lynch: IF THERE IS A REAL COP; HE MUST NOT CC. I suggest we lynch werewolf and hope zhero is not genuine. If zhero will not die, we will analyse his report tomorrow and decide what to do. If he dies, we will analyse the wagon.

(Lew's 236 for reference).

OR he's scum and knows the roleclaim is darn likely genuine, and is cleverly jumping in to get townpoints from the situation. Nulltell. Get your townreads on lew from elsewhere plz guys, if you get them at all.

Edit while posting: LOLOLOL, Lew goes and says this as well. ROFL.

On the flip side, genuine major tonwpoint Gonzoooo, for immediately trying to shut down the vig discussion. Unless I'm really blind and missing some mafia-motivated reason for doing this.

Concerning Smash...

.
226 is pretty bad. But I do see how you could have been saying, "I agree with the reasons, but I think the wagon has moved suspiciously fast just the same," and just communicated it really badly. (Ala Zhero's FAIL communication of his thinking in the "smell a bus" post). I'm willing to consider your responses to the questions about 226 as genuine clarification, not rationalization. Other people gotta make their own calls. I think 226 has been pushed about as far as it can be pushed, though.

#235 hasn't, however.

as for the claim, I really don't know what to believe. There isn't much of a way to prove his claim, since it's only Day 1 on a day start game, and as sapo said, it is a bit tricky to deal with a power role claim near deadline. Might be that he's scum trying to pull off another day living. Let him live today, and if he's telling the truth, he'll be dead by morning. Let him live and he's fake claiming, we'll see him back here tomorrow, with some explaining to do. if we lynch him, he may be scum or a power role, so we're basically gambling. Almost want to say let him live, see what happens during the night, so we can go back and analyze his play.

I'd lynch werewolf or Zhero today. I'm beginning to think that Zhero is Mafia Jailkeeper trying to pull off living at least one night. werewolf has acted scummy and also jumped on the Zhero wagon quickly. Either one is probably scum, and so I could go for either. I'll keep my vote on werewolf at the moment, but if nothing much changes by Friday, 11:59, I'll switch over to Zhero.

What the heck? Why the waffling? OF COURSE YOU DON'T LYNCH THE CLAIMED POWER ROLE. If there's anyone that jumped on the wagon quickly and stayed on it, hoping to lynch the power role (#266), it's freaking YOU. Everyone else (besides wolf and sapo -- both town and both dead) jumped ship right after the claim at the first opportunity. You're the only one who was actually still apparently considering a lynch. Scumpoint you.

(Sarcasm earlier in #235, though -- LOL, and justified.)

besides, I want to know why smash thinks Zhero is JK and not a simple nilla - always assuming he is scum.

Role Cop and Vigilante are the two town power roles, and so if he is scum, he could be claiming to drag a power down with him, or he could be trying to preserve some of the mafia's power. Mafia have a jailkeeper as their power, so it seemed to make sense that he might be trying to help his team for one more night.

Any mafia with brains would try to drag a power role down with them, jailkeeper or no. You make no sense here.

-------
EDIT: Think Gonzoooo has a point that we're probably 1:1, and either Smash or DJ is scum. Lulz. Or both. In which case it's probably good the townie guys are left to make the call.

I have no call on this right now. I'm leaning DJ, sort of maybe, because I think Gonz is town, because of DJ's night/day change (I've seen personality swaps in myself when scum), and because the heaping on top of Smash for 226 reminds me of Zhero and wolf, rightly or wrongly.

[Purple Orange]

purple asks me to confirm my own meta stating that "its too much work" to do it themself. how is that prot-town? they might as well have said "hey, are you scum? i could work at it, but i'd rather not..." not exactly protown from my pov. his follow up of generic questions doesn't cut it either. my move to zhero was well documented. i don't find PO's post "scummy" per se, but i find it interesting that you pass it off as town when it really is just a bunch of questions from a lazy player who could have easily done a little research instead of asking the questions. but whatever. this is a very nice book report you have going.

What are you on? I realize this is sort of just a passing point of yours in a larger case against implosion, but it's frankly insulting on one hand, and flat out wrong on the other.

I

never

asked you to "confirm your own meta." I asked you if you had ever played a game with mallow - one tiny concrete question that I assumed you could answer faster and much more easily than me. When it turned out that wasn't the case, I did the "too much work" of tracking down a game with both you and mallow in it myself, about 10 posts later.

I did plenty of meta footwork myself, and I reference my findings in that first linked post and others. The only other person I asked about your meta was lew, who had said earlier in the thread he had planned to look into it, and with whom I wanted to compare findings. Gonzoooo later volunteered a lot of stuff on his own.

And "generic questions"? Your posts had major gaps of data in them, and I wanted blanks filled in that only you could answer. Like if there was anything more to your mallow vote, when you made it, than "competing wagons are good." You'd said nothing more in that post, and I wasn't sure whether you were also basing it on the views in a previous post THAT I FOUND AND QUOTED. I ISO'd your posts about 5 times trying to connect dots, before asking you anything. I quote and I link to the stuff I ask about. If that is "generic," heaven help us, because then I have very little idea what a "specific" question is. (And it was your move FROM Zhero I asked you about, not your move TO Zhero).

I wouldn't have cared a whit if you'd called me scummy. I do care that you called me a lazy player who isn't willing to do research and who asked bad questions. Especially when I'm pretty sure that post supports an exact opposite conclusion.

also, all players inquiring as to my meta are asking

me

the questions. noone bothered to look for themselves. thats not my fault and its not my responsibility to "create" a meta.

Have you been reading this thread at ALL? I did legwork. And Gonzoooo is calling on his own past experiences with you. Where does he ask you anything about your meta? He just states stuff he's observed, at least as far as I can recall. (I'll do the freaking legwork here too, and search for examples or counterexamples, and double-check what I'm remembering, when I next have time. But as

you're

the one bringing up these accusations without proffering any concrete references, I think the ball is rather in

your

court here). We've all grumped that you're hard to pin down, but I was pretty sure we all just accepted and dealt with it. Questions we've asked you have been about your conduct in this thread in particular, not about how you act in other games.

--------
I'll get to any stuff about implosion and smash as soon as I can, as tracking down scum is a BIT more important than defending my personal honor and whatnot. But, yeah, that's going to take research and legwork and time. Especially if your treatment of any of their posts is as bad as your treatment of that one post of mine.

[Purple Orange]

You missed the point. The leg work you did after that post is irrelevant to the fact that implosion wrote you off as town. The post wasn't dripping town my friend. And if you want I can defense the meta statement. Gonzo is referring to ONE game we played as scum together and not even drawing a logical conclusion. Stop being selfish and try to see the bigger picture. Thanks.

Agreed on the selfish sentence, shan't argue further. (Also, it's likely our definitions of "meta" simply differ - my question about mallow could fall under a very broad definition).

I did find Volkan asking you about your meta #348, so I was wrong that no one did. Didn't find anyone else asking you, however - just a lot of us asking one another questions about you, and proffering some of our own findings.

You're right that implosion shouldn't be criticizing you for saying you have no meta (assuming that's what his hrm meant) -- it's

not

your job to establish or volunteer one, it's ours to go look for a scum vs. town playstyle on your part, if we think that track is worth pursuing. And given that those of us who have looked have come back with a "DJ is hard to read" verdict of one form or another, you saying "I've got no meta" isn't unjustified.

[Purple Orange]

I actually agree with don that the points lew raises are null. They are too specific to be used as any kind of meta.

And comparing more general habits (free-wheelingness vs. caution/logic, or whatever) across two specific games is any better? DJ's correct about that list of the stuff that can influence playstyle, and about the need for a better statistical sampling if meta is going to be used. You had referenced multiple games played with DJ as town -- are you saying they were all like Open 255?

I do think lew's observation about DJ having a pattern of opposition to discussing roles when town (links/proof??), contrasted with the whole vig conversation this game, is worth considering.

And apart from that, I do feel you've been playing a safe game, which is more likely to come from scum.

Ehhhh...a lot of that is really game-specific, though. My most absurdly brazen game to date was as Godfather.

If you had your way, we would have lynched smash already and that would have been that, for good or ill.

You're assuming he was pulling the voting block together to secure a quicklynch over Smash, and not just to put a suspect to L-1 and pressure him (and POSSIBLY lynch him). DJ's said several times he was only attempting to do the latter.

Because I feel it's the strongest case. I think some of the points against smash have been trumped up beyond their value. No offense to him, but he doesn't seem like the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to the mafia playing. I do see scum motivations in some of what he's done, but I also see VI-town play.

I went back and found you criticized people for picking on these:
* Smash suspecting one person for majority of game
* Smash calling mallow his top suspect but putting his vote on other people

Are those the points you're referring to, or are there any additional ones?

You also say Smash has "some odd contradictions between his words and his actions" - specifics?

new voting bloc: volkan, thad, PO, dj. but whatever.

Volkan I've never been comfortable with, you I have no bloody clue, and Thad is impenetrable.

[Purple Orange]

What I think you and everyone else should do is randomly pick a scum game and a town game from his iso that are different from the ones I chose and see if my original premise holds up or not. [...] You either do some of the leg work yourself or dismiss my point out of hand and judge his play based soley on this game.

Going with option (b) after doing too much (a). DJ makes srs walls of lots of text in several of his town games. And in this game I've not seen any of the more cautious-sounding "let's hold off on doing X" you mention from LLL in #421 (which I do agree looks a bit atypical). When not lurking, he's been aggressive or supporting aggression here. The one thing I found notable about this game is a higher ratio of self-defense to scumhunting than in the other ones I looked at, but I believe that needs to be weighed against the fact he's found himself at L-1 and is sorta fighting for his life here.

How does his "let's make a voting block! push smash!" fit with your verdict that he's coasting along not rocking the boat? (#421)

sorry lew, but if someone is going to accuse me of "rolefishing", then they damn well better explain the accusation. imo, their is a big difference between fruitful discussion of set-up/night choices etc. and "rolefishing". those accusing me of rolefishing need to show how what i said is detrimental and/or consistent with jeapordaizing or exposing a power role. if they cannot do that, then they cannot make the accusation of rolefishing.

I'm not seeing how 328-forward was fruitful discussion. Were Sapo still alive, the conversation might have had merit -- but Sapo evidently wasn't doing any of the aggressive-scum things you were saying they might have hypothetically done, because they were town, and

dead

. The whole conversation was a pointless distraction at best, and at worst something that could have drawn others in to say something compromising.

(For the record, I unnecessarily mention the vig in 323, so guilty on me, too, while we're making a list. :/)


And hullo, mykonian.

[Purple Orange]

but i would really like implo to be looked at here and my post later will explain why, but it seems noone even addressed my earlier point about his soft play on day 1. he gave lew a pass for excessive smilies but condemned consig for joking around and posting off-topic.

I dismissed it as weak earlier, but on second look your case on implosion in #363 is seriously crud. You fail to correctly identify the reason Implo voted for Consig. "Blending in" was a subpoint of his main point at best (that Consig was posting lots but not contributing any real content/scumhunting to the town). There is no inconsistency in Implosion voting for Consig while not voting for/questioning lew, as lew actually HAD argued a bit of stuff at that point, making a notable difference between the two. And the only reason I see that you call Implo scum in 363 is for his perceived inconsistency and contradiction.

Implo nails it with admirable brevity here:

363: thing is, Consig never did anything. lew did.

And your answer skirts the point.

consig had five posts. could he be scum avoiding an issue? maybe. could he be poor town? sure. null tell at best based on those posts. in other words, you took the easy target.

Could he have been going after the easy target? Sure. But that's not why you called him scum. You called him scum for going after Consig and giving lew a pass, when you thought he should have gone after both to be consistent. You and he can go debate whether five vapid posts (actually it was just 3 at the time of his vote, but consig certainly added more) should be considered as much a null tell an initial post with 4 smilies. He didn't think so, and you apparently think several vapid posts is LESS of a tell than 4 smilies (given your lew vote).

If you still think there's anything to what you said in 363, though, or if you think I've misread you, I'm happy to toss up a wall of quotes backing my summary of Implo's vote. Trying to avoid that unless necessary, however, especially if you've moved on to other arguments (I'm trying to reevaluate the whole vig conversation, at the moment). But this

is

the one your vote is tied to.

[Purple Orange]

General passive play, by both players using that slot. Little to no scumhunting and an extremely hesitant start. If your lucky I'll get you quotes at the end of the night.

Day 1 I take it you agree with Implosion on me. Day 2, I've certainly spent mostly asking questions about/arguing with points of other people's cases, rather than picking a particular person or two and going headlong after them. (Case in point, my last post). Don't forget that I haven't even cast a vote today, while you're at it. It is what it is. *shrug*

Deadline's coming, so I'm going to have to offer a definitive case and a vote, but at this point it will seriously be as rickety as everything I've seen from everyone else today.

After that Lew gets buddied. He was "completely legitimate". PO is taking. Oh, PO is going to like me too (I'm not English either!). And then the "thank you" to gonzo who thought consig was town. Another attempt at buddying.

People asked me to explain why I had a town read on lew. I didn't think HE was completely legitimate, I thought his differentiation between the DJ and mallow vote was completely legitimate, and that Gonzoooo was wrong to go after him for that.

Aside from Gonzo's buddying of me (and me of him?), do you have any other reasons right now you think he's scummy? There's some stuff that naggles me, but someone would have to show me that his defense of a VI and his shutdown of any vig discussion have probable reason to be scum-motivated before I'd vote for him. I'm occasionally paranoid enough to dismiss the first, but the second one especially is a high price to pay just to solidify one's position as town.

i actually like the PO case here. PO's last post seems to be trying to pigeonhole my implosion vote by tieing it to the post in which it was initially laid down, but not responding to any of the walls of text that i subsequently posted. nor does it address implo's play at all. its just kind of a sideways stab at a vulnerable player(me). plus, i like myk.

Getting there, man. I think your strongest point against Implosion has to do with his treatment of the vig discussion, and zeriong in on you over lew. Hence why I'm relooking at the whole vig thing. You were asked for a bullet-point case on the guy to summarize all those walls of text, you never gave it, so I'm going with what I can get as I find it. Your initial reason for your vote is terribad. So hells yeah that increases my suspicion of you.

Vote Count

don_johnson (2) - smashbro_of_the_SSS, implosion
Purple Orange (2) - mykonian, don_johnson
smashbro_of_the_SSS (1) - vollkan

Not Voting (4) - Purple Orange, lewarcher82, ThAdmiral, Gonzoooo

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of December 13th, PST.

[Purple Orange]

let's hear what you have to say. you really haven't been decisive and i think myk brings that to light well.

I agree with myk on that. But in line with what lew said somewhere earlier, it's been damn hard to tell anything about this game. The guy I

wanted

to push disappeared at the beginning of the day, and I've just about thrown up my hands since then trying to turn up anything solid.

Sorry for lack of links in the following. I'll find them later if anyone wants the exact references.

On Gonzooo:

* As stated, disliked his initial attack on lew.
* His buddying of me. I don't know why exactly he's been "PO is town"ing me so hard, but I almost prefer myk ripping me one to whatever Gonz had been doing. When he says he "trusts me completely" -- what the hell kind of language is that? Flattery? Trying to get me on his good side? If so, it did the darn exact opposite. I've not been asking him about DJ all day just to find out about DJ. My town read on him has been in spite of stuff like this, not because of it.
* His fuzzy gut reasons for going after DJ, that my too-long research into DJ's meta

didn't support

.
* Fuzzy niggling reason for disliking implosion, ala the above.
* I get paranoid and suspicious when anyone tries to be the reasonable voice of reason, leading the town. Gonzoo was doing that day 1, and he's doing it today as well, particularly with that "1 v 1, let's pick one now" thing.

The reason I've shrugged and rolled with it thus far is because of the two things in the previous post. I didn't think either had much scum motivation at all, and those were stronger towntells than I'd gotten from ANYONE else in this thread. If I had to assume anyone's townieness to narrow down the ridiculous variables and options, I was going to assume his.

I'm also paranoid that myk is scum and Gonz is not, and that myk is barreling in here to cast suspicion upon everyone NOT already under suspicion, distract from the fact that a polarizing "1 v 1" really did exist, and create utter confusion and WIFOM from the lynch. If you want how my brain's been working during D2, and why I've been so indecisive, it's stuff like THAT.

======================

Implo's case on DJ

is bad as well. As far as I can tell, it consists of:
* "move on" language is suspicious.
* DJ is lazy. 4 votes with no explanation. Only recent contribution a call for voting block. No recent scumhunting.
* the conversation between lew and DJ about sapo and the vig is scummy, one of the people involved is likely scum, and because lew hasn't given any previous indication of scumminess, DJ is the scum.

To answer:
* "Move on" case is crud. DJ's meaning was clear. It's in line with standard aggressive DJ. Moving on. :/
* DJ pops around with votes like this in lots of his games. I wasn't a fan either, until I read some more of him. Meh. Null tell. I've come to see the call for a voting block as an aggressive action, in line with how town-DJ would act. And...well...he's certainly started scumhunting later today. Higher proportion of self-defense still naggly, but he's definitely not doing nothing.
* Inherent in conversation itself, lew more suspect than DJ. Still in process of reevaluating this thing. :/

==========

On Implosion

* His case on Consig was reasonable enough -- the guy's posts were pretty bad. :/ Not gonna blame anyone for going there.
* He misrepped wolf when he moved his vote over to him. Not good, but he wasn't the only one. (3rd person on wagon, moved it off Consig/me).
* Misrepped some of what I said when he made a case on me, but case overall not unreasonable, can see where he's coming from.
* Made a pretty bad case on you. My verdict on that is dependent, however, on some of your meta I've read, not a pure analysis of your actions ingame. All imp used was action ingame, and I had some sympathy for his middle set of points due to that (and the fact it was before you posted text walls today).

He's been playing a rather lurky game with decently reasonable posts, topped by a crud case today like everyone else and their mother. That's my current take on him. A slightly scum reading at best, and there's days I read his stuff and think he's town.

I'll look at your further points on Imp when I get a chance. If I remember correctly, you criticized him for picking consig and wolf, easy targets?

============

And Gonzooo's thing

(srsly subject to change):

If I had to pick:
Smash (because 1:1 may be case, and DJ has currently slipped down my suspect list due to all the meta garbage I did. Need to iso and read Smash posts again.)
Gonzo (because of above stuff in post, and myk also getting scum read making me think I might not be absolutely crazy).

OK with lynching
Implo (depending on what I ate for breakfast in the morning, I interpret him as scummy)
DJ (because he hasn't slipped down THAT much)
myk (mallow carryover, also stuff in this post)

Not interested today (mostly because I haven't ISO'd their posts yet :/)
Thad
Lew
volk

[Purple Orange]

In other news, why do you keep agreeing with myk's case on you? It was actually a pretty shittly put together case, so it's kind of odd that you're so readily agreeing with it (and he makes your possible lynch list, wtf?)

Because I

have

been indecisive? Srsly, does that post look decisive in ANY way to you? Do any of mine today? I disagree the concrete stuff he's tried to pull out against me thus far, and obviously with the assertion that my indecision means I'm scum, but not that broad-brush assessment of indecisiveness.

myk makes it because of the mallow carryover. And because I see possible scum motivation for what he could be doing. I still don't have a read on him as himself.

I had a look and didn't see it. Does anybody else think dj did act like this or not?

DJ said too little for me to tell what was going through his head. I have no idea what he thought of wolf, as the people he'd talked about up until then were Zhero and mallow. I asked him about why he moved to mallow, though, and he answered here.

As for PO: The biggest problem I see here, and I'm going to

PO+7

, points contingent on respnose, is that the reasoning on werewolf, while not good, is much better than the reasoning on mallow which, as you say, is largely a lurker case. I don't think making a lurker case is scummy in and of itself (I hate lurker wagoning, but it's a fairly common fail).

Same response I gave lew -- I thought my wolf case was the weaker of the two. (He didn't agree either).

My strongest reason for going after wolf is the first sentence I posted. "His accusations and votes struck me as newb scum, having a field day, trying to be "helpful" and join the party and get someone lynched, rather than newb townie actually trying to find mafia." How does one prove an interpretation like that? I tried to point out why I got that impression, but it's pretty much still a pure gut read.

Mallow has sheeped like wolf has, and has actively lurked without positive contribution more than wolf has. My gut read on him isn't as strong, possibly just because he's been more quiet. But when I compare posts, his are ones I feel I can more concretely point to as lurking scum.

[Purple Orange]

I was originally voting Mallow, then PO joined the wagon. DJ follows PO.

Why did you get off it and jump on wolf's right after that?

[Purple Orange]

Turns out you already answered that...bad of me for not looking back over it first.

At the time, only one other person had their vote on mallow, and I felt that my vote would be better used to pressure werewolf / still concentrate on one of my scum reads. When I say one, I mean the vote from PurpleOrange, although DJ had a vote on mallow also. DJ's votes go around so much, and with little justification that I tend to not put much stock in them.

And a bit of inconsistency in the answer, actually, unless I'm missing something. If DJ's votes hop around, there's pretty much going to be zilch pressure on mallow with you gone, and me the only one on him. :/

I can't really prove this, but I was working on my post while DJ voted. I did see that DJ went over to the Mallow wagon afterwards, but I was suspicious of Werewolf at the time, and thought that the extra pressure would help me get a better read on Werewolf. With a couple people on Mallow already, and it was known that I still was interested in Mallow, I thought there would be enough pressure on him too.

Why exactly were you suspicious of werewolf? What did you see as "off" about his language? One of your reasons for going over to him in that post involves a failure to understand his stated reason for going over to consig (he was moving his vote to the more likely of his two suspects to be lynched). Which, ironically, is the same the reason you later give in defending your moves off of mallow and onto consig and werewolf.

What exactly was your case against DJ? "You jumped on mallow instead of the popular bandwagons, because you didn't want to be associated with a mislynch (even though bussing your scum partner would be risky at that point, and even though you went and voted for wolf later as deadline bore down, because you needed a town lynch!)" ??

This, though, I think is a decent point.

As mentioned, DJ votes for Mallow to allow for competing wagons on Day 1. I assume that this shows that he also entertains the idea of Mallow being scum, or at least scummy. He does say that he would be interesting in a Mallow wagon. However, today he writes:

its nice to see smash trying, but ultimately his posts are weak. he is still using the events of the rvs to condemn mallow. i don't think mallow's actions at that point in the game were terribly scummy.

I don't particularly like the inconsistencies.

First, DJ could just be saying "it was OK to go after him for RVS stuff D1, but to keep clinging to it today is questionable," which isn't inconsistent.

However, while I'm not sure who DJ suspected most at that point in the game, from all his declared statements today, I do doubt it was mallow. Which I think ties into what you and Thad were going back and forth about.

That's the thing. I don't see Dj town. He had been telling me to present a good case on Mallow all day, and didn't seem to believe in it. But once the Werewolf wagon gained votes, he suddenly thinks that it would be good to have two wagons, and goes onto none other than Mallow. He had been vocal about his other reads, but didn't seem to be sold on Mallow. Once someone else joined the Mallow wagon, he joined it too, rather than Werewolf. That's the point. I didn't think that DJ suspected Mallow over Werewolf.

I had a look and didn't see it. Does anybody else think dj did act like this or not?

But as stated above, I'm not sure why he'd bus his partner quite that early if he's scum (unless Gonz is right about his proclivity to set up busses early as scum). This is assuming mallow/myk is scum, of course.
=============

Thoughts on dj: it seems like his meta, if anything, suggests he is more-likely-town in this game.

I don't actually know WHAT the heck his meta suggests. Everything except pushing for a voting block (which, eh, he MIGHT be using as scum for the first time), and his highish amount of self defense, makes me give null tells to everything he does, even when I

want

to read them as scummy (ala votes without reasons). And it's not like cloggy quote walls can't be a viable scum tactic...and in LLL he voiced an admiration for their scum-use, in a circumstance similar to this.

[Purple Orange]

Worst things I can see against Smash

* He moves off of mallow right as the wagon starts to maybe pick up steam. See also the contradiction in his reasons for voting for wolf.

Really

don't like this. It shot down most of the benefit of the doubt I was giving him for being straightforward town who'd made some poor moves, patiently trying to explain over and over again why he did what he did.
* His votes on consig and wolf happen late in the wagons. (I see nothing inherently wrong with moving his vote to other people he suspected while continuing to voice his suspicion of mallow. The iffy part about it is that he hops on so late to two popular wagons, simply sheeping everyone else's suspicions. This is hard for me to get around).
* He jumps on wolf for doing the exact same he did himself -- moving his vote to the more likely of his suspects to be lynched. Or he just flat out doesn't comprehend what wolf was doing.
* Bad case on DJ. When have we seen a GOOD case today?

My gut said town, based on tone of his posts (see first bullet point - was reading him as straightforward town when I ISO'd him today), lotta his actions say otherwise. :/ (Gonz - you referenced smash as sounding like "not the sharpest hammer in the box" - were you getting some of this, too?) Also not sold on either 226 or 235 being proofs of scumminess...I don't see him as sneaky enough scum to try to look town by opposing a quick wagon in 226, and 235 I can read as just confused.

Worst stuff from DJ

* defensiveness
* votes with no reasons (though possibly NULL here)
* I don't like all this unreadable NULL stuff.

Vote: Smash

Slightly more comfortable with this at the moment than a DJ lynch, but seriously not by much. Your push of the voting block is what's holding me back. :/

Revised

:
Willing to vote for: Implo, DJ, myk, Smash. Willing to hammer any of these. (DJ and Smash will give the most info of these, speaking in purely pragmatic terms).
Not interested today: lew, Thad, Gonz, volk

[Purple Orange]

And that's

L-1

, so careful.

[Purple Orange]

Gonz - you referenced smash as sounding like "not the sharpest hammer in the box" - were you getting some of this, too?

Yes, big time. I'm not going to be surprised at all if smash is a complete VI and flips town here, but we need a lynch today and getting rid of his slot isn't the

worst

thing that could happen today. I'd still prefer to lynch dj, but I highly doubt enough people are going to support that at this juncture.

I don't get why your reads changed, but we can discuss tomorrow if we're both alive I guess.

I don't like going with gut reads, and the darn meta stuff made me have second thoughts about DJ -- things I thought I could peg as scum turned pretty null, and then there's the voting-block thing, which he hasn't used as scum (yet). (see my VI post, when I stick you and smash up top). :/ It's been hard for me to pin anything solid on him -- "higher proportion of defensiveness" is about the best I've got, and how much I'm persuaded by that varies. I also didn't like the (at least seeming) contradiction Smash has up there in his last post...that lost him a lot of good faith in my eyes. I really want to hear an answer from him there.

If you want to switch over to DJ, though, I will have no problem at all going there. If he's scum, he is certainly more dangerous scum than Smash is, and the sooner he's out of the way and not distracting the town with cloggy quote walls the better. He's also talked a lot more today, I believe drawing in more connections and whatnot than smash has.

Last night, when I ISO'd smash, he seemed to be yelling town from ingame. DJ I had to do meta stuff on to even get null, and I disliked him on my reread. Again, though, I don't like gut reads. :/

[Purple Orange]

Vanilla here.

[Purple Orange]

so it looks like gonzo is our vig and thad is confirmed. these are good things.

Will I be interfering with some grand gambit you had to catch the mafia if I go "What the bloody hell are you talking about?"

[Purple Orange]

so it looks like gonzo is our vig and thad is confirmed. these are good things.

Will I be interfering with some grand gambit you had to catch the mafia if I go "What the bloody hell are you talking about?"

I'm not sure if you were trying to get me to claim vig so I would draw the NK or not, or if you still have your doubts about me and wanted to test a Gonzo-scum, but I don't think it's a good idea for me to lie at this juncture, as it'd cause more confusion than it's worth.

I'm Vanilla.

Is that addressed to DJ or me? I'm fine continuing to roll with you being town, though if volk or implosion flips town I'm not sure what the hell I'm going to think.

No one's disputing Thad's JK claim, so that clears him for me, unless I'm completely missing something. He's just maybe lying about who he JK'd. The vig claimed VT...so as the vig and possibly the JK are lying, I'm assuming exceptions to "town shouldn't lie" are considered acceptable in a circumstance like this? It's probably a good thing then that I'm

not

the vig, because I woulda gone and naively claimed my real role. (So, sure, I'm fine with being jailed tonight).

But the vig obviously wasn't jailed last night, whatever happened, so I don't see the point of DJ's post, unless he just wanted to claim VT out of order.

[Purple Orange]

Game mechanics question: vig shot and mafia shot are simultaneous, right?

[Purple Orange]

Hint: The scum are almost certainly vollkan and implosion.

Lynch one, shoot the other tonight, winrar and we all party at turning this game around so well.

@ThAd - do you honestly believe if I was scum that I'd be ballsy enough to mess with hypo-vig dj? Especially after I leaned on him so hard yesterday. That's ridiculous. Dj or I am the vig and we're creating just enough WIFOM to screw the scum over completely because we have this game figured out. I'll hold on my vote so we can talk about whatever you want to talk about, but my plan locks this game up tight.

You're creating zero WIFOM over which one of you is actually the vig, but whatever. I figure it's better not to say anything more unless/until volk and implosion post?

Also, why a volk lynch before an implosion lynch?

[Purple Orange]

Okay. ThAd being JK narrows things down nicely. Btw, there's

no

reason to WIFOM right now. Like literally no reason. This game is pretty much won. Don't screw it up.

That said, Gonzoooo and d_j both do overall look like town. So I'm good with vollkan or PO.

@ThAd - do you honestly believe if I was scum that I'd be ballsy enough to mess with hypo-vig dj? Especially after I leaned on him so hard yesterday. That's ridiculous.

That really isn't ridiculous. In fact, if you were scum and d_j was vig, you would probably react exactly how you did - it would look strange if you weren't willing to accept his obvious request for WIFOM. d_j is the most likely town at this point since Smash flipped scum, but Gonzoooo is in no way clear - I'd rather he and d_j not try to WIFOM. It really doesn't do much against the scum, either.

^ This is the sort of thing I was waiting for before I started partying, Gonz. Because he doesn't do what he should do, if he's really VT. Or vig, for that matter.

Vote: Implosion

If you Thad/Gonz/DJ guys are set on another vote, I'll make a 4th if I have to, preferably on myself over Volk, just to. Because...

PO might make a good lynch today too. She's starting to sound like uneasy scum more than happy-we're-gonna-slam-dunk-the-game-town.

I already stated the reasons I don't like vollkan yesterday.

Why implosion over vollkan?

Because I found him scummier throughout the thread on my reread than volk? (And this post of his does not help?). Because I was actually able to write sort of a case against him? Because Volk I'm less sure on than him?

And because on the slim chance that the-person-who-is-obviously-the-vig-of-you-two isn't actually the vig, lynch order matters. More specifically, the person who's left free running around tonight matters. If you DJ and yourself are the other town, it doesn't matter what order we lynch/block/kill implosion, volk, and myself, right? The mafia Role Cop might find out another role, but it won't matter, because game over tomorrow - Gonz's plan is smackdown solid. And I'll celebrate with the town whether I'm alive or dead. BAM!

But if you're not, we need the real vig running around tonight. And I think volk is the more likely of the remaining two to be him.

If you'd prefer to lynch me today of JKing me, I'm pretty fine with that. I've made it clear I'm not the vig, and I'm the most expendable person in either scenario because of that. Would prefer an implosion lynch to me, of course, because it's mildly nicer to be alive and all. But whether I'm lynched or jailed doesn't matter at this point. And if you have to leave one guy free, leave Vollkan.

[Purple Orange]

PO: just to be clear. i am the vig. i think you and gonzo are our vanillas. only chance scum has to still win this game is if volkan is town. which it doesn't look like. in other words, if you are town, start doing what we tell you to do and everything will work out fine.

Um, yes, it was perfectly clear that of either you and Gonzo, you had to be the vig. Which was why I was scratching my head at you guys' posts.

What I still don't understand is why, if Gonzo and I are the vanillas, and imp and volk are the scum, the lynch of vollkan over implosion today makes a whit of difference. But definitely agree that his avoidance increased the likelihood of him being scum, so it's all good.

vote: volkan

voting block is a go. volkan has posted elsewhere on site. his avoidance here increases the likelihood he is scum. neither PO or impolosion has stated they will hammer, so there should be no harm in bringing him to L-1.

imp and PO: do not hammer. we will place volkan at L-1 and give him 24 hours from then to post.

thad: in case of a town flip i think its better off if you don't jail anyone. scum flip and you jail PO. make sense?

Jailing doesn't prevent the mafia from using their factional kill though, right? I think Gonz mentioned something like that earlier. (And even if it did, the mafia could simply refrain from killing and frame the person jailed). So all you'd be doing by jailing me is preventing the mafia from killing me, which is fine and all, but not seeing what else it does, exactly.

[Purple Orange]

gonzo: a clear shot for the vig is better. if volkan flips town, then two scum are left. vig needs to hit one. better vig has three choices than two imo. but thats up to thad.

Right, now that I think about it, the jailing might be inconsequential tonight anyhow. As long as you shoot one of the scum, we're good. My plan would actually fail to stop the scum kill anyhow, so Thad doesn't need to jail if we mislynch today.

*eats peanuts*

Ah, nevermind - misinterpreted...Gonz was talking about a 2-scum-on-the-loose scenario. So as long as factional kill is stopped by jailing, JK away.

[Purple Orange]

LoL yeah, but he did not my comments on vig being wrong shooting saporo were meant to be a double-wifom... I hoped scum would think I was the vig pretending I wasn't... I felt REALLY stupid when someone who could be the real vig took the criticism rather personally and started to argue Lol

LOL, "lew is the vig pretending he isn't" was my first impression of that conversation.

In hindsight, I should have played along with dj calling me the vig, but it probably would have been revealed we were lying due to ThAd's jailkeep anyhow.

Unless Thad had played along, it would have been absolutely worthless. His first post looked like he was telling the truth about who he'd jailed (which was why I seriously didn't understand the point of what DJ was doing), and when he said "I don't see how all this who's the vig stuff is helping the village," it was about 100% obvious he hadn't lied.

And thanks for backing me as town, man, even when I was going crazy on you. Also, I think my gut reads were 0 for 4 this game...hence why I say I really don't like them.

prove me wrong. i've never been lynched correctly on a meta case.

I was still so horrifically swingy about you right down to the wire it wasn't even funny, but meta-ing you to death was what prevented me from simply agreeing with Gonzoooo's (and my gut's) take on you. So maybe now you can at least say you've been

saved

from an incorrect lynch (or a mafia nightkill due to a forced vig claim) by a meta case.

[Purple Orange]

usually i support early vig claims, and even considered it in this one. but as the game went along i realized that would most likely sink us, so i did everything i could to avoid it. pretty happy with the outcome here. i wouldn't say the set up is "broken" per se, mafia could have tried harder to avoid the smash lynch. i think volkan could have swung things my way, but i think he was a little afraid of rocking the boat. tough game for scum, but it was nice how we pulled together at the end.

Yup...I was seriously surprised they ended up having their JK get lynched. And really impressive job holding out on the vig claim.

gg gonzo, i was ready to hand the game to you if you were scum, but even if you were, i don't think you could have won. the plan was foolproof and i was happy to leave thad at the helm once he was confirmed.

PO: your utter confusion was what gave me a town read on you.

Yeah...an implosion flip as town, and me being jailed that night, AND a mafia kill going through would have singled out Gonz as the last scum. So thankfully I wouldn't have had to convince Thad of the fact. (And as Thad knew that Gonz couldn't be the vig, no-killing as mafia would only have delayed the inevitable).

If factional kills weren't blocked by the JK, though, things would have been a

lot

dicier on Day 4.

[Purple Orange]

You stealth-hydra'd? Or is Gonzoooo a known hydra I just didn't know about because I'm new?

I was inclined to side with the hydras-give-unfair-advantage side of the debate before this, but REALLY am inclined that way now, after this game. Dammit, I want a quicktopic and an extra set of eyes telling me I'm crazy or on the right track.

[Purple Orange]

As far as the hydras are overpowered argument, I think you'd need to play with more hydras. Some are and some aren't. Both DDD and I are relatively decent players on our own, so perhaps Gonzoooo was. On the other hand, it honestly was mostly me posting so most of what you were seeing was VPB except for close to the beginning and closer to the end. I'm happy to share our QT if DDD wants to do that as well.

I'd be quite interested in seeing the QT, if DDD doesn't mind.