Cyclic Experimentation Set x01 - [Game Over]

[MagnaofIllusion]

Greetings to those of you I’ve played with in the past.

First order of business –

@MOD

– I didn’t see it specifically addressed in the rules so I apologize if it was

Were the passable powers randomly sent out irrelevant of alignment as the Vig mechanic was in 1040?

Second order of business -

Specifically getting rid of passable abilities early on is not good play. I can explain why if you really need the insight. If you don’t understand first read Mini 1040. And think about how the mechanic works.

How the cycling abilities will be handled -

D2 all players who survived and passed on abilities N1 should claim that they passed an ability, only revealing what that ability was if it gave them a Pro-Town result (like a guilty on someone). They are not to claim who they passed it to.

D3 all players still alive who passed abilities N1 claim who they passed them to. Then said players confirm / deny that they received an ability Day 2 that they passed on N2. They also reveal any useful results.

Lather rinse repeat each Day cycle. And continue to lynch scum.

Parama does it kill the person?

Why are you so focused on whether it kills or not?

I only briefly considered the possibility of doing this to a townie, it definitely should be passed to an antitown player, who should subsequently be removed from the game along with those bad abilities.
Aren't you folks trying to win?

While saddling a scummy player with an Anti-Town ability that is dangerous in the endgame and then killing them before it can be passed is a good strategy for late game it’s very bad early. For obvious reasons.

I'm actually serious. Somebody just gave me a bomb.

And you have no idea who that is?

VOTE: Muh316

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oops, should have remembered to clarify that from the Mini 1040, but yes all powers were sent out to players irrelevant of alignment.

Thanks

kunk

The Eruci.

For clarity implosion is not confirmed Town if he does indeed have a Day 1 Power.

[MagnaofIllusion]

not an entire one, give highlights. Sorry, thought i might have to shorten that because of POS but i dont.

If you understand why eliminating Cycling abilities, even if Anti-Town, until later in the game is wise then you don't need highlights.

If you don't I'll wait until CKD has completed his plan before stating why.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I guess I get it, but letting that stump thing stick around seems like playing with fire. Can you start trying to remove it after just one cycle of confirmation?

Given the importance of how the Cycling mechanic works each ability will provide information. So Anti-Town abilities certainly don't have to stick around much longer than Day 4 I would guess.

[MagnaofIllusion]

people are forgetting something in the rules.

If you are inferring the standard versus non-standard powers noted in the rules that is not forgotten but considered a tertiarry issue, IMO.

As to the question of blocking / redirecting abilities based I don't think that is possible to stop a proper hand-off.

Let's check with Mod -

MOD - Can role-blocking / redirection abilities affect the actual hand-off of powers?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Given that Mod had to clarify on multiple occasions in Mini 1040 as questions came up about the mechanic I’m not really sold that him doing that sort of thing here is an indication of a scum-tell for Parama.

For anyone who doesn’t get why making the passing of powers public

– Scum cannot pass powers between their own team members. Thus every pass that is publicly made (after the requisite amount of time to make sure the Power is safe from NK) eliminates each half of the transaction from being aligned together as Mafia. It’s an additional level of PoE that can be exploited later in the game in additional to normal scum-hunting and behavior interactions.

I've kinda answered both these already but
1. Not telling
2. It can be passed whenever the hell someone wants to pass it.

Given it can be passed at will to you think it is effective to do anything but eliminate lurkers / flakes?

let me say that MoI's confirmation strategy is the best town strategy for a game like this.

No. The best town strategy is to scum-hunt and lynch scum. My suggestion is only an additional useful tool to help Town do so.

feel free to nominate me for scum finders bitches.

Sure … find us a bunch of scum and I’ll happily do so. On the other hand I’m not doing it on the merits of passing what seems to be a non-standard ability around.

Well, we'll lose a lynch.

How do you know we would lose one by testing Implosion’s unlynchability?

Currently I'm not liking Muh, a couple of posts and no content; I'm also not liking quadz based on his "scumslip" vote on paramas nulltell.

If you ‘don’t like’ either of these players (which I assume means you think are scummy) why didn’t you vote for either of them?

Your name doesn't sit well with me...

How long are you going to be stuck in joke mode?

Also Vote: Quadz08. Early scummy vibes from him on that terrible "scumslip" catch, not to mention one on a claimed fairly powerful PR.

How is his 'catch' attacking a claimed fairly powerful PR?

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EST today until Jan 1. I will be able to post sporadically in that time but will have less access than normal.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, I think this hot potato role is fairly powerful, do you not? I'm also getting town vibes from Parama, even more than usual in this game.

As I understand how the Hot Potato works it is a marginal ability that can be used to weed out lurkers or flakes. It can't confirm alignment relations in any way so it clearly isn't as strong as other Cyclical abilities.

That said Mod has already confirmed that scum can start Day 1 with abilities so I'm not seeing how Parama starting with a Power clears him in any way.

If you have strong Parama Town vibes that's valid. The fact that you supplemented it with supposition that an attack on Parama is attacking a Strong Town PR I find suspect.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The lesson to learn? Don't leave something potentially dangerous in your possession when you could easily pass it safely.

Muh, might as well fess up. Are you scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok ... have to sleep now but an mostly back from the Holiday insanity.

Will read and post something of significance in the next 48 hours.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Rather large catch-up post incoming ….

Parama’s

WIFOM at 147 I really don’t like.

I Am’s

sequence of posts in the early 180s regarding EC’s attack on Parama exactly mimics what I thought as I read along. He earns a rare Town read for that from me for that reason.

@I Am re 366

– Why didn’t you address Pops’s confusion about alignment in the same post.

TMH

shortly after I Am also mimics my thoughts but doesn’t earn as much goodwill as I Am had already laid out that logic in thread before TMH’s post.

TMH

earns further Town read from me for 191.

Narsis’s 226

earns a large scumdar hit. EC has come under some pressure and suddenly Narsis is getting scum-vibes that he can’t explain regarding EC.

Pops’ 188

rings my scum-dar for lurker hunting (Longing) and continuing with an unproductive thought process on Cycling Powers.

Pops and Chkflip’s

back to back attacks on TMH for Chainsawing starting at 396 lead me to believe that the probably aren’t scum together. That would be pretty blatant Scum buddying Scum action right there

Chkflip’s

hop onto Wrathchild following Parama’s lead pings my scumdar.

Chkflip’s

later input which amounts to ‘Why don’t you know about a Treestump based on your join date’ isn’t even closely related to scum-hunting.

Chkflips

is guilty at 363 of a similar crime to Narsis – stating someone is scummy but being unable to articulate any reason at all why.

Chekflip’s

soft defense of Narsis hidden in his attack on Nero Cain at 417 is noted for future reference.

I don’t like that Diddin claimed under zero pressure. That he did so as a Dayvig makes me wonder the following –

Diddin– does your dayvig power require you to post in thread to activate?

Powerrox’s 168

where he votes Parama based on ‘believing Muh’, who had zero valid reasons to support his Parama is scum statement, is scumtastic. The return to said vote at 408 leads me to believe you are an _I. Further evidence will sway me as to whether the blank should be filled with a V or an S.

The last paragraph of

RedCoyote’s 174

reads as fencesitting. He doesn’t find Wrath scummy but agrees with Diddin’s ‘not revoting’ tell. Also, diddin’s Town read on Parama is more troubling than the scum-tell he just said is valid. Seems very much composed to fall either way on both Diddin and Wrath.

@Lat22 re 326

– Why restrict the list of Top Candidates to a set list of players?

It's antitown the entire game. Putting off the task of removing it will just make it more difficult :/

No it is not anti-Town the entire game. The ability to publicly pass it for several days gives us solid sets of X and Y are not scum together data. If you insist on looking at the downsides long-term at least consider the positives generated along the way.

No, really, you just get a strong town consensus and say "dayvig this guy or you hang from a rope".
He'll dayvig a townie and then hang from a rope, we either bag a scum or get free lynches.

So you would rather eliminate a Cycling ability before any Paired Relational information could be generated or before it could be passed to a Townie who could Dayvig scum-Diddin?

Identifying who he is going to pass his daykill ability is HORRIBLE because scum can shoot that person and remove the vig ability from the game permanently. .

So does lynching Diddin if he doesn’t bow to public pressure which is sure to have some Mafia influence. Yet you are all for that.

@MoI's cycling plan: I reread the OP while I was rereading stuff and cycles resolve after kills. That mean when we say we have an ability, scum know who to shoot to remove abilities from the game. That doesn't really help us. The last game is probably the reason it's like that this game.

Then either your reading comprehension is bad or this is a scum-motivated post. You claim an ability AFTER you pass it. And the abilities worked just the same in the last game.

I'm more suspicious of you. You didn't bother to seek a clarification on your abilities, which you should've done if you were town. Instead, you passed it off to somebody, continuously posted short one-liners, and got that person killed. P.S. He's town!

Horrible argument. Muh acknowledged in the thread that he had received the ‘Bomb’. He clearly had the chance to pass it and screwed up thinking the thread would not move so fast. So attacking Parama for moving the thread to detonation when he could not be sure that muh had not passed it is scummy.

Yes. Hold onto it, and pass it to someone who genuinely thought was scummy. Just like his WrathChild vote, he is simply tossing out crappy reasons to kill people. He did it with a bomb, now he wants to do it with a lynch.

How do you know he didn’t find muh scummy?

I saw that Diddin (I think that was who, I'll double check) had put up a lame pointless vote on me (for Unvoting a RVS Vote) and figured he was baiting me into OMGUS voting him to drive his case further. I wasn't going to let him have that satisfaction, so I just refrained from voting him at the moment

So you were managing how people would perceive you by not voting for Diddin for fear of it being labelled OMGUS. Do you think site meta indicates OMGUS is a scum-tell?

- I reeeeaaalllly don't like the fact that Parama has evaded this question, no matter how small it seems to be. Tells me something... something scummy. FoS!~

UNVOTE because my read has since nullified. I'm tempted to vote diddin, as I find him scummy, but I'll wait until I post again to lay a vote alongside my own portion to the scumcase.

This sequence is scummy. He finds Parama’s dodging of a question, no matter how inconsequential scummy enough to warrant an FOS. Then he immediately unvotes whatever vote was floating around and says diddin is scummy but will withhold a vote until later.

I don’t find unvoting without revoting necessarily scummy if you don’t have another candidate. Here ck has two and doesn’t vote for either.

I'm liking MoI's guidelines, but I feel that he is a good enough player to have this pre-made regardless of alignment, and adapt it to how the gameflow is going.

Of course I had those guidelines fleshed out before the game started. I played in Mini 1040 and thus learned the strengths and weaknesses of Cycling abilities there. You said you skimmed 1040. Why didn’t you assume I didn’t use my pre-knowledge in forming my plan?

Diddin, if you shoot WC without at least 10 or more people saying "go for it" that you quote in a post, I am going to push your lynch so hard.

So you would push for a proven Dayvig power to be lynched based on him not following orders when –

1. If he is Scum he MUST pass it to someone other than his own partners
2. If he is Town Scum has to use their NK to eliminate it if they don’t think he will pass it to them
3. Whoever Diddin would pass it to would provide Mafia Pairing elimination
4. Lynching said proven Cycling power assures it is taken out of the game

[MagnaofIllusion]

TL : DR Summary of said above posts –

My top scum candidates as of now are Pops, Chkflip EC, and Narsis

Pops mainly has been pushing for the absolute direction of the Dayvig with lynching as the alternative. I don’t like that. Diddin being directed by ‘Town’ removes his culpability for the act if he vigs a bad target. Regardless of Town’s majority steering towards a weak Town player is easily achievable by Scum under the guise of ‘Town’ guidance.

Pops also gets plenty of scum credit for early lurker hunting (The Longing) and pushing two weak, newer players as prime Vig targets.

Finally we have the continued push to eliminate a claimed Cycling ability in Implosion’s treestump citing LYLO fear-mongering when the information upside to keeping it is rather large.

Chkflip has been fairly active but avoided any semblance of scum-hunting for a significant amount of time. Posts 176 and 363 are also scum-motivated posts.

EC’s attack on Parama has been correctly pointed out multiple times as scummy and poorly put together. After that his ISO is fairly devoid of scum-hunting.

Narsis is some sort of Idiot (in the VI / SI sense). 226 is very scummy.

VOTE: Pops

I personally would like to see any of those four Dayvigged. Narsis would probably be the best choice as low-content players are always better Vig targets than higher content scummy players.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD – Please confirm that Mafia members are prohibited from trying to pass a Cycling Power to a player they will use their Factional kill on.

@Pops

– I’ll be addressing your responses that started at 445 but as I addressed above a large part of your arguments about Diddin as scum eliminating the abilities I think are invalid. In 1040 when NoPoint as scum was passed the Vig power he was prevented from passing it to either myself or LMP (the Factional and Vig shots that night). I don’t see anything in Mod’s rules the demonstrate this process had changed. If I am correct in my thoughts than any argument that follows the line that 'we lynch Diddin if we think he is scum because he'll just pass the ability to a dead player' are invalid.

This is a very important point regarding 1040 - Had Mykonian pushed for a no-lynch and used the Vig successfully Town would have won the 3 player endgame. NoPoint had no reason to want to pass the ability to a still living player as it opened the slim possibility that he could lose without being lynched.

I do it with both alignments. It's good play. Deal with it. Lurking is a weak scumtell, and a promise not to be readable for the rest of the game.

And lurker hunting is good play when no better cases are available.

So which is it … good play or conditional good play? Because even at the point where you went lurker hunting I think there was scummy behavior being exhibited that warranted pressure.

Also, self provided meta is as useful as a $3 bill.

Explain why fencesitting is a scumtell, or this is an offtopic post. I've been accused of fencesitting in far more of my town games than scum ones and still fail to understand how it's a scumtell, so you'll need to enlighten me.

Fencesitting is a scum-tell. When fence-sitting you are establishing a position that can be used to argue that you were correct on an issue at a later date, regardless of which way the issue fell. Town doesn’t generally have need to do so this and be able to say "See, I found WC Town / Scum" regardless of the outcome when people begin looking at relational tells.

The net result is still negative. Info about who is not scum with who seems to only have marginally use. One of two players has to flip scum, and then we only get one confirmed innocent.

Disagreed completely. In the later stages of the game having a large pool of information about players who cannot be scum of the same alignment with other players is invaluable to a PoE process, which Town will likely be using since no Town roles look to be ‘set’ in this game.

And democratic daykilling is bad because the mafia are influencing it? Man, we should stop lynching, the mafia influence that too. vote: No lynch. *eyeroll*

I love this dismissiveness. Straw-manning for the

win

loss.

No, I'm not scum because I support a better procedure for handling the dayvig than you do. It just means you don't understand it yet, or at the very worst, I'm mistaken. Knowingly pushing bad theory is something I would never try, have never tried, and have never seen with either alignment. It's next to impossible to make a town go along with incorrect approach to the setup, 25 (or even 12) players can't and won't be that dumb. Pushing bad theory as scum has a risk with almost no possible reward.

Yeah, I’m almost positive that you aren’t supporting a ‘better’ procedure when it eliminates possible information. And again, self-provided meta is useless. Finally you overestimate any Town’s ability to be led with scum-driven advice when there is enough vocal and powerful personalities in the scum pool.

--

@chkflip re 471

– You feel the need to respond to Pops non-game related comment regarding the Wiki but nothing regarding being called scum by me?

--

^This is a scum claim.
Because scum know there's no counter-argument to that incredible WIFOM - regardless of what you think, my stances on it are the only ones that make sense. And he doesn't like it because he can't use it to push a crap case on me.

Yeah, that’s cute. WIFOM statements like you made at 147 don’t really need anyone to express a counter-argument because, you know, it is built in. Let’s look at your post since you got so hot and bothered by a little criticism.

But the simplest one - Parama is town bombing muhscum - is the simplest one.

Now for some counter-WIFOM:
1. If I was scum, why would I publicly claim that I have a bomb? Couldn't I just keep it silent and quietly pass it to a lurker?
2. If I was scum, why wouldn't I pass the bomb ASAP? I could've passed it in the pre-game, for crying out loud. But I held it until I saw someone ping my scumdar.

First of you’ve just pointed out how Occam’s Razor is full of fail for Mafia. Because the scenario you presented as the simplest one clearly wasn’t the case once we got his flip.

1. As scum you’d publicly claim the bomb for the Town cred you are trying to claim. Duh.
2. Passing it to the first person who you see do anything you could portray as scummy would make them target you would not get attacked for choosing. In an attempt to, again, claim Town cred. Again, duh.

I’ll chock up your reaction to what I see from Fate or any other out-of-control ego on site for the moment.

--

I get what you're saying here, but after diddin claimed, don't you think this throws all individual responsibility out the window? I mean, to an extent, diddin is going to be responsible regardless of what he says or does, but when you claim before shooting, you're effectively trying to rid yourself of total responsibility.

I agree with what you are saying but I don’t ascribe to letting diddin divest himself of responsibility. As Town I think the proper course of action is to let him make the shot himself and thus bear the responsibility for it.

This is hypocritical, Magna. You say this and then in the next breath say Narsis or EC should be shot. Longing/Lateralus has more posts than EC and Narsis combined as of WC's post count.

It is absolutely not hypocritical.

1. EC is not a lurker and I don’t see how you attempt to classify him as such.
2. Regardless of how many posts Lateralus has made since replacing in when Pops made her lurker-vote Longing had between 2 and 4 posts. You can’t say give Pops credit for pushing on an active player when the activity came after the push. The fact that Pops has agree that she was lurker hunting makes this particular part of the argument by you confusing to me.
3. You are mis-repping my position. I stated that all four of my suspects would be good Vig targets (as I think all are scummy). I stated the Narsis was the best of the four due to low activity. If you disagree that Vigging scummy players with low activity is better than Vigging scummy players who post a lot (and therefore are more likely to slip / respond when questioned) we have a difference of opinion.
4. If it was hypocritical I’d be voting for Narsis. I’m not voting for the ‘lurker’. I’m voting for Pops, the active scum.

As a cherry on the top, I don't particularly like your chkflip argument either. Helghast, among others, is worse than chkflip in the "concealing his scumhunting" department.

My suspicion of chkflip can be summarized as such but read my long response post for specific posts by chkflip I find scummy.

Helghast is mostly avoiding my wrath based on meta evidence that tells me his ‘I don’t post lots of suspicion’ shtick is a Null-tell.

--

If there is only 1 kill, and he wastes it/uses it on town, what's the use in the ability anyways? where the ability has to pass to town, if he's scum, who is to say they won't pass it to their hit? I will want to know who he passed it to, and if the person ends up dying then he will end up frying.

You can’t use the argument that ‘What if there is only 1 kill’ to justify your approach as we have no idea how many shots diddin’s power has. What if there is more than 1? Then it has plenty of use, including eliminating Mafia pairings.

And as stated above I don’t believe scum are allowed to pass a Cycling ability to someone they use their kill on.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First things first – since Mod has declared that scum apparently can use the 'Kill and Pass To' method to eliminate cycling powers much of my objections to Pops’ motives are not valid.

UNVOTE: Pops

--

I still cannot see why Helghast is so scummy.

Why post this statement in two of the last three post you have made (ISOs 13 and 15)? What scum-hunting motive does it serve to repeatedly say you don’t see someone as scummy? Why is he Town?

Here’s another question – is the sole reason your vote still sits on Parama revolve around muh’s read?

--

MoI is town, don't agree with everything he says though. I'd like him to summarize his views on chk-scum because I get lost in the WoT's.

I’ll do a full ISO demonstration on chkflip in the next few days. This post is long enough as is.

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Jeez, these wall posts are really annoying. Not been on fora fair few days but will try and catch up.

So once again you wish to play to your scum meta of lurking, especially when not under pressure?

--

I feel like a doctor-protected-semi-confirmed-town MoI would be very beneficial to the town on D2

Um, whut?

1. Directing the Doc – bad juju.
2. Why in the hell are you buddying up to me Furc? You have to know, given our history, that I would find it very suspicious.

--

Those are far from equivalent. Mafia has some small influence on what happens in the day. They have (pretty much) 100% control over their NK. Comparing the two is basically apples and oranges.

Um what? I’ve never made any argument about the Mafia NK being equivalent to Town voting. Where are you getting this from?

--

It doesn't get more blatant bandwagonny than that.

So stating you bandwagon vote with no reason is such makes it Pro-Town? Really?

Lurker hunting is NOT a good place to start to find SCUM. It is a good place to start to find mislynches.

Then why didn’t you mention Pops along the same lines? She has championed that lurker hunting is good Town play.

--

If you want to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there were players who were more scummy in the town in that point in time, and that I am so competent at mafia that I wouldn't have missed that as a townie, please, go ahead, and show your work. Since town's only lynch a few percentage points above random chances, though, I somehow think there's room for honest disagreement.

So you are asking me to prove to a standard impossible to meet in a game that is subjective, as Mafia is, and to further more prove your skill at Mafia? That’s a pretty outlandish standard you have there.

Seems just as dependent on flips as chainsawing. I don't see any validity going on here unless one of the targets the fence sitter feebly poked at was actually scum.

I disagree. Town doesn’t need to establish that sort of position regardless of which way the issue falls. It certainly isn’t confined to being valid only after flips.

I sense we are going to be disagreeing on many game theory issues (since I think lurking is a playstyle that is alignment independent).

Explain the superior alternative method of directing the daykill.

You don’t direct it. diddin shoots who he ‘thinks’ is scum and bears the consequences. Under your method diddin has zero culpability for his shot and really doesn’t have to actively scum-hunt.

Vocality is correlated with being town aligned, posting makes you readable so scum avoid posting. So unless you know that specific vocal people are scum, which you can't possibly know as town, this statement is ridiculous.

No, vocality is a function of the player, not their alignment. I can point out all sorts of examples of players who are prolific posters regardless of alignment if you wish.

Why don't we do this with lynches Magna? It's quite feasible. I nominate a player we're curious about, say, chkflip. We tell chkflip to select a player to die today. He votes that person, we all vote with him, he takes full responsibility.

Because that’s a frankly stupid method to lynch by? How are you selecting chkflip? By your good looks and abrasive personality?

Please, please, explain the difference. There's a reason we don't nominate "Kiras of the day" to pick someone to die. That player has an X/N chance of being scum, the amount of scum influence doesn't change with the method. The kill doesn't provide conclusive evidence about the player's alignment, chkflip might mislynch a townie because he made an honest mistake. And we get info about one players alignment instead of every single player on a giant wagon.

Are you seriously trying to equate how lynches are performed with a specific role in the game?

Every single player in the game (aside from Mr. Treestump) has the ability to scum-hunting and vote. We analyze their play based on that.

Diddin is the only current player in the game with the abililty to kill at will today (or the only player to have claimed it since he hasn’t actually shot yet). He can be judged not only on the previously mentioned voting and gameplay but also by his choice of Vig target.

You don’t increase the amount of information available by directing the vig. It is just a shadow of the regular scum-hunting going on. Yet you do remove another level of information about a player by directing diddin's actions.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Had to break up the post ... damn site limits.

The "It's not possible because that'd be too obvious" excuse for it not to be scummy? That's as assenine as me saying you just bussed your scumbuddy Pops to paint me scummy if he were to flip. If you find it to be blatant buddying, call it out; otherwise, just pointing it out like this is pretty meaningless to me. Not to mention the fact that it looks like fakehunting.

This is a relational observation. It’s something I look for in a Mafia game. Don’t really care if it is meaningless to you. As I said, you were so blatant in your /barning of Pops that you are very unlikely to be scum of the same faction (if we have multiples as Pops has suggested). Are you suggesting you would be dumb enough to buddy a scum-partner so blantantly?

And use of fake-hutning 1.

No, actually, that's called pressure. On top of a meek point -- is your scumdar supposed to make me crack under the pressure of your fakehunting? Stop acting like you're above the game and maybe I'll take you seriously, guy.

So mindlessly jumping on the wagon is your standard of voting? Gotcha, more on this later in your comments.

Also, please elaborate on why you felt the need to make a disconnected personal attack. I’d like to know how I’m ‘acting above the game’ by suspecting you.

Fake-hunting use number 2 in said post noted.

No, it's not. Congratulations. Note that I wasn't scumhunting in that particular portion, though, as there was still much interest in the Tree Stump ability and exactly how it worked.

Um what? Why post a dismissive statement about the Longing if you didn’t have a scum-hunting motive?

This seems to be your only point of half-validity. I've got to ask, though... if you had so much of a firm belief that it was as you say, why not supply the hard copy?

And here's why. Obviously we were still discussing the Stump. The rest of this particular post is answering a question Lateralus had posed to anyone who wished to respond, then me finishing with an inquiry in response. Is this the greatest post in the history of mafia? Certainly not, but this is a very poor example of you trying to pair me with something that might actually be scummy in Narsis.

Really … how is the following portion of that post not exactly as I described.

Helghast, on the other hand, just seems scummy. But I can't pinpoint anything scummy (that hasn't already been addressed) and I hate parrots, so I've yet to give my full read on that situation and I will continue to play it by ear

You specifically say Helghast is scummy but you can’t actually show why. Regardless of who you were talking to you just did exactly what Narsis did.

Obviously you're strawmanning and now tunneling so hard on me with your fakehunting fakepressure that you fail to read the post correctly.

- Finding someone to act in a scummy manner isn't enough to vote them as you may just be misinterpreting what's being said, nor was Parama's oversight enough to vote for him either. So yes, dodging a question gets a FoS and not a vote. Personally, now I can see where he's coming from.

I’m straw-manning? How so? Did you not unvote and specifically say two other people were scummy in the same post without revoting? Seems pretty inconsistent that you were so careful with your vote here but easily bandwagonned someone (Wrathchild) that you had expressed zero suspicion of before hoping on the wagon following Parama’s lead for ‘pressure’. Why didn’t you ‘pressure’ either of your scum candidates? You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

How can I possibly be tunnelling? Do you, who lives by the Wiki, not know that tunnelling involves only looking at one person AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL OTHERS? You can hardly claim that is the case here.

Honestly the whole first sentence looks like Wiki-buzzword-bingo. Do you think that throwing Wiki-fallacies around when they are not even relavant makes your defense stronger?

3rd specific notice of the use of fake-hunting. Appeal to repetition (which, again, you should know from your Bible) much?

But you've earned my vote with your over-the-top reaction combined with the scummy behavior I've already demonstrated.

VOTE: chkflp

Remember, don't crack under the pressure ... again.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So ddin is going to shoot me?

This is the only thing you have to say after your long absence? That’s it?

Congratulations … if you are Town you’ve made my ‘Players to Avoid at All Costs’ list when joining games.

--

Right there. You're saying pops can't be for picking who diddin shoots (because if he doesn't, then we lynch him) while being against picking who we pass his ability to (because scum will shoot said person). You are equating the mafia's power in picking the vig shot to their power in picking the NK, which is completely ridiculous.

Aside from the quote jumble there your interpretation is absolutely incorrect. In what you quoted I am in not way attempting to even discuss the Mafia NK.

I’m suggesting that lynching diddin if he refuses to follow Pop’s plan (which I clearly disagree with, as stated multiple times) results in removing the ability. I also say that the Mafia will have some influence in the ‘Town’ direction of diddin’s shot. I’m stating outright that if Pops’ plan of ‘Direct or Die’ isn’t followed by diddin and he is lynched that it GUARENTEES the ability is removed from the game. The Mafia would not have to act at all to remove a Cycling Ability.

--

I've red and red his post many times now and I still cannot find one single scummy post made by him. Can someone please explain why Helghast is so scummy that he should be lynched?

This is all you have to say about everything that is happening. If Helghast is indeed dies and flips Town this (and the previous posts) reads so much as ‘Scum distancing from a mislynch / misvig’ it almost hurts.

Add Powerrox to my official list of suspected scum.

--

Nero Cain’s theories

at

583

looks to be big-time Tin-foil hat territory. Why would any player, Scum or Town, claim to have an ability they can use and then promise to kill a Town selected target if they had already made their shot for the Day?

--

1. In Mafia, like most things in life, you always have to ask, "what have you done for me/us lately?" EC was indeed fairly active as the game opened up, but he has since began to lurk. So, yeah, I dispute that Longing is more of a lurker than EC at this point.
2. I'm not necessarily saying Longing is an active player. I just don't think EC and especially not Narsis would qualify as active either.
3. This doesn't apply. You came at pops for his attacking lurkers, among other things. You are attacking lurkers. Period.
4. Fair enough, but, again, one of the reasons you're voting pops is because of his focus on Longing. Unless you concede that point, it doesn't matter that you're not voting Narsis in my eyes.

1. So having a suspicion based on EC’s early game play, when he was active, immediately dissolves into being labelled lurker hunting? I just want to be clear.
2. You are missing the point. At the point where Pops went after Longing he was clearly lurking and Pops attacked him for just that. Did I attack EC for lurking? Nope. I attacked him for his terri-bad Parama attack. Did I attack Narsis for lurking? No, again for making a horrible bandwagon vote with no reasoning.
3. Wrong. I’d attacked Pops, Chkflip, EC and Narsis (and now Powerrox). Not a single portion of my attack had anything to do with their inactivity.
4. We disagree. Noted.

--

What is the difference in him voting someone for vigging and vigging that player himself?

If the reply is that he can vote someone for vigging he doesn't expect to die, look, that dynamic also affects everyone else in the town, to a diminished extent perhaps, but multiplied by many more players.

Voting for vigging someone is no different to voting to lynch someone. You are registering your push against someone you find suspicious. It can indirectly leads to death of the person.

Actually Vigging the player is taking the action into your own hands. It directly leads to their death.

Why are you harping on this obvious difference?

If you really want to read people based on them killing, you should select the player you most want to read, at least. I personally want to read all of them with a second lynch.

Your read them on the second lynch gives no more information than reading them on a regular lynch, IMO. Players aren’t prohibited from expressing multiple suspicions as to who they think is Mafia. It certainly happens in games without outed Dayvigs to direct.

And, once again, I’ve never said I ONLY want to read diddin on his kill target. It would be, as I’ve explained, another layer of information about him specifically.

I’m frankly done arguing with you on this point. It’s just MD material as far as I can tell.

--

Red, Directing the doctor is more town or null imo , and is lynch diddin or wc that bad? Ppl are accusing, and I understand pressure as town is good.

Directing the Doc is not a Town move at all. Are you asking here why it would be bad to lynch diddin if he proves he has a Daykill power?

--

Have you considered the possibility of a Mafia roleblocker at all? If there is one and the Mafia finds out who the doctor is, they may put the doctor under scrutiny by keeping roleblocking him or her while killing off the people to whom he or she is directed. Also, I haven't seen it, but according to the Wiki we may also run into a "macho" version of a role (i.e. one that cannot be doc-protected).

This seems a little bit alarmist if only from the standpoint that I’d expect any Doc power to be Cycling.

--

Direct Contradiction. I say hang him.

Are you stating that between those two posts there was no way Saint could have changed his mind on his read on WC?

Because between when I voted for Pops and when I unvoted new information appeared the made my reasons for suspecting Pops as scum greatly reduced. Should I be hung for a Direct Contradiction?

Also

– as Lat has requested please provide your full reasoning behind your shot when you take it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Despite Chkflip not yet responding to my recent post I now seriously want to see Powerrox hang.

UNVOTE: Chkflip
VOTE: Powerrox

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Lat

– Yeah, I haven’t had time to make that full chkflip case and give deadine is hear it will have to wait until tomorrow.

@Parama

– If you masterful scum-hunting prowess is so easily able to be defeated by people posting large posts I’m guessing you probably don’t deserve to win the ‘Master Scumhunter’ Scummie you are up for.

@Pops

– Your ‘democratic’ method of directing the Vig has played out. I hope you are happy.

TMH has managed to remove completely any semblance of a Town read I have on him with his float of a No Lynch Day 1 and subsequent tries to explain why he did so. I further dislike his attempt to move the near deadline discussion to ‘narrowing down’ who the secret double voter is. It tells us nothing about said person’s alignment.

Darla’s constant lack of content (combined with pointless sarcasm as shown at 654) has solidified her position on my scum-list that Narsis previously held for his back play.

Chkflip’s catch-up post has all the hallmarks of scum play –

1. Complaints about Town’s position being ‘worse’. Classic attempt to look like a concerned Town while saying nothing of consequence.
2. Bandwagon vote with ‘reasons’ coming later. Yes, I see that he said the reasons would come later. Better to give a summary now in-case he loses internet again before his catch-up.

PREVIEW EDIT

– Bunny and Wrath get major scum points for moving to hammer Power before he could claim whether his ability cycled or not.

--

I also think that Diddin should examined a bit closer because essentially he limited his Vig targets to only myself and Helghast, he refused to kill EC. It seems to be a safe-scum play to limit the vig targets as he did. While he made it appear that we had a choice, it was win-win for Diddin IF he is scum.

Oh I think he should be examined but thanks to the Democratic plan you really can’t attack his choices as he was following the will of the people. He was handed a crutch, as I’ve said many time repeatedly.

--

I think that entire argument is full of WIFOM and doesn't really prove a point one way or the other. I've already brought up this analogy but it likes saying a player is godfather because they came up innocent to a cop investigation. It could be one thing masquerading as another but it's more likely to just be that thing. Occam's razor.

1. Occam’s Razor has no place in Mafia games. Seriously. Almost everytime I see it invoked (for reference, look at Parama’s use earlier this same game) it is wrong.
2. This situation is nothing like a Godfather / Cop situation. It’s a bad analogy.
3. If you don’t believe in the behavioral tell that’s one thing. Heck, since you yourself are engaging in the same behavior that Powerrox is getting flack for, to some degree. But to outright dismiss it when other players find it credible to varying degrees is foolish.

--

vote: TMH for having me as his #1 suspect, yet voting someone who is not his #1 suspect
flawed logic
plus im town

It’s only flawed logic when we are not running up against deadline. Which we are.

And stop the pointless protests about being Town. It’s not convincing anyone and looks rather suspect when you are in no way, shape or form likely to be the lynch today.

@MoI: What are your thoughts on Diddin?

He’s not played in any fashion I really consider Pro-Town (lack of scum-hutning, etc), his unprovoked claim was terrible, and he’s been allowed to coast due to the ‘Popularly Decided Dayvig’ giving him outs from proactively looking for scum and shooting them.

I’d place him in my second tier of suspects behind players like Chkflip, Darla, etc.

--

I still don't understand this phrase, "easy target", that I've heard all across mafiascum. What does it mean?

Aren't scum easier to attack than other players? So then wouldn't being an easy target be correlated with being scummy? So why would it ever be used as an argument, ever?

The easy target argument is a bad one but I’ll try to explain why people use it.

There is a perception that certain people (VIs, Lurkers) who display behaviors that are consistently Anti-Town do to playstyle are more likely to be targeted by scum looking for mislynches. And said players rarely are able of forming capable defenses of themselves under pressure. Thus the perception by some that they are ‘easy targets’.

Of course this argument ignores that said players can just as easily be selected to be scum as everyone else and can play in a scummy fashion on top of being Anti-Town by nature. Thus why that argument is bad.

[quote="Pops]His power is antitown, it's more useful for endgame quickhammering than it is for letting townies get more say in the lynch, since it's more about exposing who's scum than having enough voting power to take the player down.[/quote]

Disagree, again. Town having the ability to vote twice (to make up for the lack of vote in the Treestump) is useful. I’d point you to [REDACTED] if I could.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magnaofillusion’s Guide to How to Handle Cycling Powers

–

What to do Day 2 (after the first Night)

–

If you had a Cycling Power that you pasted on N1 claim so in your first post. DO NOT say who you passed it to or what the power was.

Exceptions

–

Diddin should claim who he passed the Dayvig Power to and explain why.
Implosion should claim who he passed the Treestump Power to and explain why.

If you had a Cycling Power that gave you a result that provides positive information for Town (a Cop Guilty, a Hider target that didn’t cause you to die) you should also claim your Power and the result so the information isn’t possibly lost. Note for this purpose I don’t consider Cop Innocent results or Player X went nowhere results as positive information.

If you received a Cycling Power after N1 (or after any Night)

– Say nothing about that.

Exceptions

–

If you received the Dayvig or Treestump Powers they are going to be self-evident so claim you received them to confirm Diddin / Implosion’s story.

What do to Day 3 (after the second Night and every successive Night)

–

If you passed a Cycling Power N1 and did not reveal who you passed it to Day 2 do so in your first post of Day 3. Said play should be confirming they passed an ability N2 and thus confirm your story.

If you had a Cycling Power that you passed on N2 claim so in your first post. DO NOT say who you passed it to or what the power was.

If you received a Cycling Power after N2

– Say nothing.

The same exceptions apply and new ones may develop as the game progresses.

Lather, rinse, repeat and establish links for endgame

[MagnaofIllusion]

It was an anti-town ability regardless, scum having the power to secretly hammer under no accountability is the absolute last thing we need.

No it isn't. If scum were to do so they would IMMEDIATELY BE OUTED BY THE TOWN WHO PASSED IT TO THEM.

But thanks for playing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You're ruling out several extremely common and/or likely scenarios with that, I can think of at least three ways scum could get and use it with no accountability and I'm sure there are more.

Name them.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No. Why would I give out ideas on how to do that? That's retarded. Besides, it doesn't matter, the ability is gone.

Because with the ability gone I'm asking you to provide reasoning why the ability was so Anti-Town.

Town Doublevoters are handy roles to have.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Congratulations Town! After Night 1 I was sure the passing mechanic plan I had laid out was going to be ignored, and based on the who the scum were I had doubts Town would win.

IAI certainly gets Town MVP from me for being the organizer who took the plan, kept it running, and made good decisions.

I think Pops certainly stands out as another excellent Town contributor. As the Dead QT shows we obviously disagree on many play theories but her reads ended up being very accurate after Day 2.

I haven't read the Mafia QT but am surprised both IAI and Pops lived for so long.

I think DGB would have won the game had she not claimed Purge immediately. The Scum-puter turned out to be pretty accurate this game.

Thanks to Kunkstar (aka the Eruci) for the game. My stay was brief but I enjoyed it and kept up with the thread until the last Day. I can't say that happens often when I die the first Night.

I'd definately play another round and as I suggested in the Dead QT making a multi scum environment would help cut the effectiveness of pass tracing.

Thanks to the scum for bumping up my Large Game N1 kill percentage even higher ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

For the record after reading the Scum QT - I found it funny that CKD's slip on the Eruci flip meaning he was scum was accurate scum-hunting on our part.

Pops, not sure why you were confused ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Confused about the first flip where it listed Eruci as alignment.

Both you and Ckd had reactions that indicated that alignment flip was unexpected. CKD in the Scum QT indicated it was a slip. No idea why you didn't recognize it as a Town alignment flip.

As for splitting a single scum team into unknown partners less optimal than forming two competing scum teams, IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks for the congratulations guys!

I Nthed the Best New Mechanic Nomination and threw in a Smooth Operator nom for Kunkstar (aka The Eruci). The way he handled this game was an excellent display of Mod greatness.