Newbie 1045: Christmas in Newbieville! (Mafia Win!)

[Mr. Flay]

What have you people got against United Kingdomians??

Anyway, hey, SE slot I forgot I signed up for. VOTE: Korts - speaking of there can be only one...

[Mr. Flay]

Ugh. Yeah, ender's either newbtown or newbscum, too soon to tell right now. Definitely newbie though (no offense.. we all start somewhere).

Glass: We do whatever we want. If voting randomly doesn't make sense, don't do it. The game usually STARTS that way, but we've already got some good stuff to chew on without drawing out Random Voting Phase longer than necessary...

Speaking of which, I'm tempted to vote Bump. UNVOTE: Korts at the least, joke votes are so last page.

[Mr. Flay]

@Flay - you're "tempted" to vote Mr. Bump? I can see why, and I agree with it, but I'm curious why don't you at this stage?

It's early page 2 and there's lots of little posts going on? I don't have time over the holiday weekend to really sift through the thread yet, so I'm not voting (also, I was waiting on a vote count). I can see some of what people were talking about, but a lot of it seems predicated on Fungrus, who I don't get as scummy yet.

[Mr. Flay]

I'll be back tonight, now that the holidays are over.

[Mr. Flay]

Okay, sorry about last night, fell into the wiki, and been trying to get some coding done... should be back now, with the notable exception that I will be

V/LA 12/31-1/1

.

So, gamestate:

1. ender started us off with a painfully naive No Lynch vote. Paradoxically, he gets mild townie brownies for that, but mostly it just looks like he's new. Prior experience being revealed will eliminate that excuse, of course, but for now it stands. iso7 is interesting in conjunction with iso9, as both seem to take a fairly friendly attitude toward MrBump. Later, Bump has been on ender's case pretty hard, though... if one comes up scum, I'd suspect the other, but Bump definitely ranks first.
   
2. Thor comes in and jumps down Fungrus' throat for not voting ender while telling him why his action is misguided. Arguments about whether No Lynch is actually "inherently scummy" aside, it's a pretty long step from what Fungrus said to what Thor said. However, Thor's subsequent posts show that he's pretty much whaling on whatever he can find, which inclines me toward finding him pro-town for now. The Thor-Glass thing is tiresome, though... I don't think either is particularly scummy in it, but Townie-on-Townie fights on Day One are an excellent scum strategy.
   
3. MrBump's first vote doesn't really make much sense to me; is that a RVS or a real vote? Why are you agreeing with Fungrus but voting Glass, who Fungrus hadn't talked about at that point?
   
4. Korts' opening salvo at MrBump doesn't make any sense... Bump was
   agreeing
   with Fungrus, not accusing him of anything. Thor continues this line of thought, which I'm just not seeing as of page 2.
   
5. Mmmm, hypocrisy. MrBump has been getting onto ender for vote-hopping, but he's on his third vote as of post 68. Also, his "remind me never to make a joke again" looks guilty as hell.
   
6. Napher seemed to be posting fairly decent content early on, with several small posts. But then he pulls out post 82, in which he accuses either Glass and Thor of being scummy, but ends up voting for the current vote leader, Bump. Opportunistic much? Then on page 5 you say that you think Thor-Glass isn't getting us anywhere. What happened to your suspicions on one or the other of them?
   
7. Oddly, Lateralus takes Napher as his example and votes Bump by quote-linking the problematic post above. Really?!?

On to things that don't fit the bullet points neatly:

Thor - how does this:

I'll agree a total lack of reasons to vote someone is bad, but it's not scummy. It's poor play. Scum and town generally commit poor play proportionally to each other.

jibe with this:

@Glass - it's not that he didn't vote him, it's that he called his actions scummy and didn't vote for him. If you have no reads on anyone and then someone does something scummy what reason is there to not vote them? I submit that there really isn't one (especially in this game setup and at this stage of the game).

I think you tunnelled on Glass pretty hard for pages 3-4, and the line "but I feel zero pressure towards me from your end" is just condescending as hell, as is "I really am beginning to wonder if I'm typing in a strange dialect you don't understand" and "same way you'd explain them to a not-so bright rock". I feel like you're attacking on an emotional basis at least as much as you are a logical one, trying to get people to rile up and make mistakes. But since my experience is that Town gets more emotional than Mafia when accused (who have a buddy to back them up), I don't get why you're taking that tack. Do you always start games this way? I don't have time to scan your past games right now, but I'd love an answer anyway.

I can see some of what people were talking about [Mr. Bump], but a lot of it seems predicated on Fungrus, who I don't get as scummy yet.

I agree with the interesting angle you've noted - Korts seems really excited to run up Mr. Bump for dismissing his 'scumbuddy' Fungrus - which, as I noted earlier, is reverse lgic. If Bump is scum because he's buddies with Fungrus it's inane to lynch Bump first of the pairing because only one of them can be independently scummy in that equation. Have you played with Korts before, what's your read on that?

I don't believe I've played with Korts before - that said, the logic you cite is one of the reasons Korts is on my radar. Need moar content before I can do anything further with it, though.

@MrBump - What do you think of that people starting to vote you?

I'm really quite confused, as far as I'm aware I made a joke at the start of the game and swapped my votes as stuff came up.

I have my vote for precisely the reasons Thor just listed, he's deflecting things and not answering direct questions. I care more about lynching the Mafia than diverting attention away from me. We have seven town members against two Mafia members. We need to concentrate on taking out Mafia. If we're being voted, defending yourself is okay, but I'm not going to spend my time defending myself.

So you're not worried by the votes? I find you my strongest suspect at this early stage of the game. I think you're

too

relaxed. You're present and posting, but aside from some stoking of the fire between Glass and Thor, you seem to be cruising on your early posts/joke. Your last post kinda stinks, as Glass has said repeatedly in the last 10-15 posts that he's reading Thor as Town for now. And why are you POSSIBLY asking Thor for more opinion on Glass?? The last two pages weren't enough?

No vote because Bump is at L-1, but Napher is second on my list.

[Mr. Flay]

Also where is Mr. Flay?

Being ninja'd by you, apparently.

[Mr. Flay]

Whaling = Thor has gone on the attack pretty much constantly since game start. Ordinarily that looks pro-town to me, though I have reservations in this case due to his treatment of Glass. Certainly it beats not giving any opinions at all.

I literally don't understand the rest of your post. Bump agreed with Funghrus about ender, but voted Glass, claiming RVS. And I already stated what I had a problem with in Napher's post; scroll up 2 screens, point F.

---

MrBump (3): Korts, Napher, Glass
Fungrus (1): Thor665
Mr. Flay (2): Fungrus, Lateralus22
Glass (1): MrBump

Not voting (2): Mr. Flay, ender241

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
Deadline is January 14th, 2010 at 4:00PM.

[Mr. Flay]

Bump, claim. That's the second time you're at L-1. Also, that's the only thing you have to comment on in my post?

Napher, you're correct about the vote timing, I was rereading the thread somewhat out of order. Doesn't change anything else to do with 82.

[Mr. Flay]

Flay: why is Bump's "remind me never to make a joke again" comment scummy?

I find it to be one of those "god, why is everybody jumping down my throat? did they already figure me out?!?" reactions from noobscum. noobtown tend to get more emotional and attacky, in my experience. Bump's playing it awfully cool for being the vote leader.

Agree about the information saturation point you made in post 137. 3 pages =/= 30% of the content of 10 pages.

So are you discarding your argument about ender's first post being scummy, Korts?

Right, you said you thought he was being opportunistic and that you thought it was suspect that his suspicion disappeared later on. Is there anyting wrong specifically with the reasoning for the vote or did you just want to say you really hated the post I linked?

Mostly just surprised that you liked the post I hated. I hate it because it looked/looks pretty scattershot, like he's trying to find something to stick among at least one of his three targets, while not tying himself down to any one person. (this is different from what Thor is doing, but mainly in sophistication)

I think I must have misread Bump's initial post. Still, it's a very minor part of my suspicions on him.

[Mr. Flay]

Thor - how does this:

I'll agree a total lack of reasons to vote someone is bad, but it's not scummy. It's poor play. Scum and town generally commit poor play proportionally to each other.

jibe with this:

@Glass - it's not that he didn't vote him, it's that he called his actions scummy and didn't vote for him. If you have no reads on anyone and then someone does something scummy what reason is there to not vote them? I submit that there really isn't one (especially in this game setup and at this stage of the game).

How does it not?

Statement 1 - Lack of reasons to vote someone is bad but not scummy.

Statement 2 - Someone is scummy because they called someone scummy and didn't vote for them (in the exceedingly low information stage of Page 1)

I don't even see a solid connection between them, much less a contradiction. Help?

The first one says that scum and town commit poor play in equal proportion - the second says that not voting someone for poor play is scummy. Why would you vote somebody just for poor play, if town and scum do it equally? If they do it equally, then how is it even scummy?

I think you tunnelled on Glass pretty hard for pages 3-4, and the line "but I feel zero pressure towards me from your end" is just condescending as hell, as is "I really am beginning to wonder if I'm typing in a strange dialect you don't understand" and "same way you'd explain them to a not-so bright rock". I feel like you're attacking on an emotional basis at least as much as you are a logical one, trying to get people to rile up and make mistakes. But since my experience is that Town gets more emotional than Mafia when accused (who have a buddy to back them up), I don't get why you're taking that tack. Do you always start games this way? I don't have time to scan your past games right now, but I'd love an answer anyway.

I will note pages 3-4 happened in one evening, so keep that in perspective.
I'll also note at least one of the comments I was 'emotional attacking' in was me insulting my own intelligence - there appeared to be a communication difference between him and I that I was trying to sort out because we appeared to be talking at cross purposes. Those always annoy me as clarity in understanding is the crux of the game.
I think it's gutsy to say that scum are less emotional than town - but you are correct insomuch as I was looking to get some emotional rises out of him. I find them useful scumhunting tools and apparently (judging by Bump's 'coolness') so do you. I think we're debating along the same lines of scum vs. town tells in deciding lynches and the answer is both can be and are useful.
For the self-meta question; I do tend to be bombastic on Day 1, sometimes more and sometimes less. I've noted I'm more aggressive the less I feel people are talking and feel this reflects across my games of the past six months or so. Feel free to research and draw your own conclusions.

I might research later, right now you're just a tickle in my brain behind other likely candidates. I stand by scum being less emotional though, especially in Newbie Games.. but we're veering into theory debate rather than game debate. Thanks for the explanation.

Lateralus:

Why the vote switch?

V/LA tonight and tomorrow, then I should be back in regular form, more or less.

[Mr. Flay]

Sorry, wife had surgery today. I really thought I was going to have more time for this... will definitely post content tomorrow (Tuesday).

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, dram saved our team. I do wish he hadn't lurked so much though, it wouldn't have been as close at the end... sorry for having to replace out guys. I'd have done the same thing as town (and to be fair, I think the only other game I HAVE replaced out of was a Newbie, as Town, where I was posting similarly to this one).

Still don't think I was contradicting myself in early posts, but I couldn't get up enough momentum to sort out what people were trying to accuse me of, without walls-of-text.

[Mr. Flay]

I have a theory on this one - Docs that claim and live tend to be scum. Yes, it can be a gambit, but you look at their protection choices, their votes, etc to decide that. 9 out of 10 times, an uncountered Doc who doesn't die the following Night in a setup like this is going to be scum. It doesn't mean you lynch them the next day, but you don't generally want that person living to LyLo (and scum don't want them living, if they know there's a Cop out there).