Newbie 1045: Christmas in Newbieville! (Mafia Win!)

[Thor665]

tl:dr - this entire hidden commentary block is all about introducing myself as the IC, blathering about my duties, and offering a basic idea of some of the strategy of the RVS. If this interests you, please read on (especially if this is your first time playing here) if not, feel free to skip.

Also, hello to everyone, I don't think I've played with any of you before.

Spoiler: IC Intro

===========================================================================================

Greetings,

I am Thor665 and I am the Inexperienced Challenged (IC) player of this group. What this means is first and foremost - I am here to play this game with you in a way that will show you what it is like to play on Mafiascum.net. I am here to win and should be treated as such.

My goals and the rules governing my actions are covered in this handy article: Being a good IC
That article is part of our amazing MafiaWiki System. I *highly* recommend this system as a good way to get your feet wet and to find out what a lot of the common abbreviations mean. There is a lot of play strategy discussed in there too. A lot of players consider that advice almost all outdated now. I don't recommend trying to run verbatim with anything there, but a lot of the basic advice is very good to at least be aware of as it can help you avoid blatant pitfalls as you become familiar with the game play here.

Now, as an IC I am here as a resource for you to ask questions of concerning game theory. I WILL NOT lie about game theory answers and will answer them to the best of my ability. I will also offer you the following quick pieces of advice;

1. Don't self vote. (there are really no points during a Newbie setup where this is a good idea, please avoid it however logical you may think it is)
2. This site frowns on lying if you are a vanilla town role. I strongly advise against lying if you have this role as usually it will only hurt town in the end.
3. It's a game - have fun.

We are now starting what is known as the RVS (random voting stage). We are in a low information period because scum already know who they are, and even have a rough idea of what power roles may or may not be in the game. It is now town's job to root them out. Because the start of the game leaves us with no information to start with generally the way to start is to begin voting and questioning other people to see if you can catch them doing something scummy (scummy actions being acts that a scum player is more likely to do then a town player).

Vote: Fungrus

He called something pro-scum but decided *not* to vote anyone because...the person who did the pro-scum thing might be a newbie? With everyone else presumably being either a null or newbie read at that point him witholding his vote just looks silly and illogical since he did nothing to confirm a newbie or scum read on ender. Lack of scumhunting and illogical voting practices equate to scum.

[Thor665]

I've never heard of you, yet you're the IC. Explain or die.

I slipped VRK a quart of Jack Daniels and three chocolate bars.
Explanation over.
Accusations begin.
Stop stealing my IC format.
Oh, and Fungrus is the scum, so...

[Thor665]

I'm supportive of the Bump wagon, but it is just based off the scumminess of Fungrus so I submit my vote is superior.

[Thor665]

The quick change of votes is a pretty weak scumtell as, generally, scum want to lynch somebody. You'll note of the experienced players I'm the only one who hasn't changed my vote yet - it's normal to be vote hopping at this stage as you try to get wagons up and running and pressure people. Speaking of that;

@Flay - you're "tempted" to vote Mr. Bump? I can see why, and I agree with it, but I'm curious why don't you at this stage?

@Glass - it's not that he didn't vote him, it's that he called his actions scummy and didn't vote for him. If you have no reads on anyone and then someone does something scummy what reason is there to not vote them? I submit that there really isn't one (especially in this game setup and at this stage of the game). Also, what do you see as the Mr. Bump/fungrus connection that suggests they are scumbuddies?

@Napher - what's your read on Glass at the moment?

@Mr. Bump - what are your feelings about the current pressure upon you - I believe it's two votes and at least both Flay and I have expressed interest in the wagon.

[Thor665]

Wooosh, lots to catch up on oddly enough, my other games are dragging. Here goes;

That is why even though I found his actions to be inherently scummy, they led me to believe that he was not scum.

Where do you think you indicated this at the time?

I'm starting to see what you guys are talking about MrBump and Fungrus may be working together or at least Fungrus is scum. I would be willing to jump on the bandwagon once I find more proof, as right now I'm not certain.

If you see the case why are you uncertain about it? What rings false or incomplete?

@Mr. Bump - what are your feelings about the current pressure upon you - I believe it's two votes and at least both Flay and I have expressed interest in the wagon.

I'm honestly quite confused, as I explained it. I realised it was a newbie mistake Ender made and I'm not going to jump on him for that. It's just silly.

I can see from these posts Ender is simply unaware. He's likely to swap his votes around the place, so;
UNVOTE: Ender

Ouch, my scum-o-meter just started flashing at me.

I can see some of what people were talking about [Mr. Bump], but a lot of it seems predicated on Fungrus, who I don't get as scummy yet.

I agree with the interesting angle you've noted - Korts seems really excited to run up Mr. Bump for dismissing his 'scumbuddy' Fungrus - which, as I noted earlier, is reverse lgic. If Bump is scum because he's buddies with Fungrus it's inane to lynch Bump first of the pairing because only one of them can be independently scummy in that equation. Have you played with Korts before, what's your read on that?

The quick change of votes is a pretty weak scumtell as, generally, scum want to lynch somebody.

^dont these two statements contradict each other? Fungrus = scum for not voting, but scum wants to lynch.

Quick changes of votes weakens lynch attempts in early game.
Avoidance of voting someone you call scummy is worth investigating.
I see no contradiction in the two beliefs being concurrent as the two examples are non-analogous.

You'll note of the experienced players I'm the only one who hasn't changed my vote yet - it's normal to be vote hopping at this stage as you try to get wagons up and running and pressure people.

So why haven't you been changing votes? I am rather curious about this.

You have noticed that Fungrus *just* finally responded to my questions and vote of him - there's not much point to changing a vote until it gets reactions, is there? I'm keeping my vote and desire to lynch him as the obv. scum he is until I deduce that he's not scum, someone is more obv. scum, or he's lynched.

@Napher - what's your read on Glass at the moment?

Just curious about why you ask someone, who had made two posts prior to you asking this, what they think about me specifically. It seems to me that this question can only mean one of three things:

1. You want to get people who haven't been talking involved in discussion.
2. You find me scummy and, without calling me out, are trying to find support among others.
3. You find Napher scummy and, without calling him out, are trying to drag more posts out of him to increase your evidence against him.

I think that number 2 or 3 are the most likely since it's not really your job to include everyone, you probably would have asked fungrus as well if that were the case. Whichever of us you find scummy you clearly don't have enough evidence to FOS us without being seen as scummy yourself.

At least, that's my interpretation of that question.

Is there an actual question you want responded to here?
Let's move Glass further up the scumdar - his more solid voicing of concerns about me after Bump made that statement earlier suggests to me Bump is more likely town and Glass more likely scum. Still puzzling out my Fungrus and Kort reads, but should have enough to have a solidification or shift in my vote after their next posts.

[Thor665]

Do I see an omgus?

Can you explain how you think an omgus is scummy? While we're at it, define omgus and show how it applies to me.

At least your second post is semi-functional because you actually address one of the issues I raised with you. I think you "jumped on the bandwagon" insomuch as it does seem interesting that within a page of Mr. Bump expressing uncertain doubts about me that he can't define you leap out with a scumlist...of one player. You don't think I should see a possible connection between the two events?

[Thor665]

An omgus is when you fos/vote for someone

only

because they fos/vote you. How this applies to you is pretty clear as you jumped on my ass right after I said I thought you were scummy.

Fixed the error.
Voting for someone after they have voted for you is not OMGUS - only doing so with a lack of other reasons is.
You agree I listed reasons to suspect you and responded to them, ergo - not OMGUS.

How is it scummy? Because it shows you have no reason to fos the person, you should not omgus as town because it is very probable that the person fosing you is a townie (if you did not think they were scum prior to the fos), thus it is better to try and lynch someone who actually looks scummy instead of someone who simply voted you. Mafia on the other hand have no reason not to omgus.

I'll agree a total lack of reasons to vote someone is bad, but it's not scummy. It's poor play. Scum and town generally commit poor play proportionally to each other.

I did not "leap out" with a scumlist, I was simply replying to ender's request. And I can see how you see a connection between the events, but I can assure you that they are unrelated. If I were to fos Korts right now would it make anyone who foses him in the future scummy? I don't believe so.

Depends how you did it and how they did it, wouldn't it? But I'm glad you agree there's a connection I could have seen there. Why do you feel a need to justify who asked you to list your reads now? Is the 'jumping out' commentary making you uneasy? Do you think if ender hadn't asked you for your reads you *would* look scummy?

Yet you didn't change your vote or anything? What?

Indeed, I didn't. I even said as much;

Still puzzling out my Fungrus and Kort reads, but should have enough to have a solidification or shift in my vote after their next posts.

Why is it scummy that I'm not voting you yet?

[Thor665]

I think the first question is rhetorical, so to answer your second question: Yes, I believe it would have been scummy as stated above.

Wooosh! Thank gawd he asked you then, eh?

As a question - you apparently have no suspects other than me, what are you doing to get me lynched and/or discover if I am really scum? I'll admit I'm pressuring you, and you're responding to that, but I feel zero pressure towards me from your end and that's making you look really scummy to me. What's up?

@Mr. Bump - my advice is to try and figure out why your gut is twigging to me, until you do that you and others won't be able to assess the case. You need to be able to assess the gut reaad to decide if it's valid, and you need to be able to explain where it's coming from if you want any support that isn't Glass'

I'll also note, that if you dislike my play but aren't reading me clearly enough to notice what I'm saying about my positions and votes then I, quite frankly, consider your gut read absolutely meaningless as it's coming from made up assumptions in your own head that are ignoring what I'm doing.

[Thor665]

So you have zero desire to see anyone lynched?
What are you doing to change that situation?

[Thor665]

So you plan to sit around and hope someone claims scum? Clearly there should be a proactive way you can get reads, yes?

Also, why is page 3 less likely to have scumtells than, say, page 10? You're hamstringing yourself if you believe scum don't become scum till later in the game.

[Thor665]

I don't see you doing much besides pestering me either.

Really?
I've called people scum. I've called people town. I've asked questions and seem to even indicate that answers to those questions will affect my reads. At the very least I'm faking doing more than you, and there's a fair chance that I'm just actually doing more than you.

I am pestering you, but it is also for a reason. You seem to be tossing up your hands and saying 'nothing to do for the scumhunting till X pages have happened and I'm trying to understand why you believe that and also maybe get you to consider what number X is.

Also, why is page 3 less likely to have scumtells than, say, page 10?

I never said that, I was saying that there are far more scumtells in 10 pages then there are in 3.

So we already have roughly 1/3 of the available scumtells from 10 pages and you have zero reads? Certainly you must have some tells that are worth pursuing. Why aren't you?

[Thor665]

@Bump - if you gut suspected me as scum, why do you trust my suspicions of Glass?

Indeed you are faking doing more than I:

I'm faking but I'm not worth voting? Hmmm.

-I have not seen you call anyone town, please indicate where you have.
-You've called people scum (fungrus, Mr.Bump, me) but you have skipped over ender????? In fact you haven't said a word about ender throughout the entire topic despite all the mistakes he's been making, yet you jump on me with so little as: "OMG GLASS "ATTACKED" ME RIGHT AFTER MRBUMP", I also noticed that you only said that your "scum-o-meter" went off on Mr.Bump after he fosed you (under the disguise that unvoting ender is somehow scummy)
-I too have been asking questions, your point?

1. Called Bump townie the same time I called you scummy.
2. Why is ender scummy? Frankly I have a town read on him so there's not much point in me calling him scummy, is there? (also I cited Bump as scummy for the way he unvoted ender and it had nothing to do with him suspecting me)
3. You may be asking questions (though actually I don't really think you are, other than rhetorical ones) but you certainly don't seem to care about or analyze the answers.

You are once again twisting my words; it is not that there needs to be so many pages before scumhunting can begin, but I cannot fos somebody who I have no read on (Korts, Leopold, Flay, Fungrus).

So we're back where we were. You have no reads, nothing has happened to give you reads, and you choose to do nothing about it. What am I getting wrong and what is your proactive solution to the problem of having no reads?

[Thor665]

I find that you are trying to manipulate Glass's words in order to make him seem more scummy, which is a very scummy thing to do IMO. Glass didn't want to lynch you right away however you made it seem like he was hoping for a no lynch.

I said nothing of the sort and didn't mean to imply it either. I was saying that he appeared to not be scumhunting or trying to improve his reads on other players at all - which is a much more serious accusation in any case.

I believe that Glass or Thor has to be scum

That is a very dangerous mindset to get into. Plus there is no evidence to support the belief. Plus you, after claiming that 50% of the scum team is in two people turn around and vote someone else. That is not a smart play. The *best* you could deduce from the Thor/Glass interaction is that it's probable that we're not scumbuddies as I don't think it should look like the interaction is simple distancing. But that's the best you should be able to get, and there's no evidence that is very convincing in the either/or argument you are making.

1. The same spot where you called him scummy? So how exactly is Mr.Bump both town and scummy? (and yes this is an actual question, not "rhetorical" like all my questions are apparently)
2. I didn't say that ender was scummy, but it seems that you are commenting on everybody except him.
3. hmmmm, I guess you're right, I have only asked a few questions. But the one's I do ask I care about the answers.

1. Because it's possible for people to do things that are scummy even when they are town, and to do things that are townish even when they are scum. One of the worst annoyances I have is when someone makes a scum case on a player and does a PbP (Post by Post) analysis and show how 90% of everything they've posted is scummy. It's just silly and overwrought. But, yes, I called some of his actions scummy in the same post I called some of his actions townish. If you can't see how he's a strangely vacillating hard to read slot then just presume I'm lousy at reading people, but I did call actions town, which is what you were asking about.

2. You did say, however, in giant prose wailings with multiple exclamation points that it was super strange that I hadn't been pressing on ender (despite the fact that now you are claiming to have a town read on him as well) why do you think I should have been suspecting him if you also thought he was town? I'm very confused by this.

3. Wooosh.

I have reads on bump, Napher, ender, and you, but you are the only one that is standing out as scummy atm from my eyes. I am currently relooking through people's posts if you must know what my "proactive solution" is.

You have a read on Napher? How? Where?
When you're done re-reading the 4 pages of the game I'll be curious to hear your thoughts. Frankly I don't think you need to re-read four pages and should be trying to help generate another four pages of new content, but if it works for you that'd be awesome.

[Thor665]

Even though his posts are few and far in between you should be able to get a read on how he acts and reacts (although being what appears to be newbie might throw my read off slightly); he has actually been saying his opinions instead of Korts and Flay who I would really like to see post.

So you think he's town because he's stated his opinions?
I don;t feel like you're answering my question - why do you have a town read on him?

We'll revisit your read on ender when I have a better feel for where I stand on Fungrus and Korts. I am not content with the current situation there but want to re-look at it before I start randomly screaming for your lynch.

As for my scum read on Fungrus; I've written out an explanation for that 2-3 times now. Did you miss it? If you didn't miss it could you please tell me what part(s) you don't understand - otherwise all I'll end up doing is writing the same basic logic in the same way again.

[Thor665]

Wow, way to misinterpret what I said.

I never said I had a town read on Fungrus; you asked where I got my read on him from, and I responded accordingly.

This is an especially funny quote to me - because I wasn't talking about your read on Fungrus and never asked about it either as I recall we were talking about Napher. Do you think I misinterpreted your read on him? If so - specifically how. If you really think I was misinterpreting you about Fungrus I'd like to hear that as well. You're calling me "misinterpreting" when I would call everything I've been doing "trying to understand what you are saying" and I rather feel the conversation is going like this;

You: I believe A!
Me: Why do you believe A?
You: X! X, damn your eyes!
Me: So...X-1?
You: Screw you, why are you bringing up B!?!
Me: Um...I thought we were talking about A, what is this about B?
You: X you dithering, drooling nicompoop!
Me: So...wait, B is X?
You: Misrep! Why aren't you talking about C?
Me: ...I hate you.

I'm attempting to understand you and I don't feel you are helping, please help more and explain your thought processes to me the same way you'd explain them to a not-so bright rock. Maybe that will help. Let's start with the whole reason you think Napher is town and what (if anything) Fungrus has to do with that and/or how you think I brought Fungrus into the Napher discussion.

So whats your issue with my read on ender?

I've already said it. I really am beginning to wonder if I'm typing in a strange dialect you don't understand. As previously noted; you asked why I wasn't scumhunting someone you had a town read on in what appeared to be a case of redirection attempt on your part.

@Glass - it's not that he didn't vote him, it's that he called his actions scummy and didn't vote for him. If you have no reads on anyone and then someone does something scummy what reason is there to not vote them? I submit that there really isn't one

That's the explanation that you said, but you disregarded fungrus's justification of not voting him. Fungrus did not believe that it was a scummy move by ender but he believed that voting no one in this setup is good for the mafia, and ender clearly did not know that. So I see no reason as to why fungrus is scummy for informing ender it is unwise to not lynch. Not to mention that this is based on the fact that Fungrus did not vote someone they found scummy, yet here we stand here without you voting me.

*sigh*
I have already explained why I have not moved my vote yet, Mr. Bump understood it, why don't you?
Second off, whether or not you agree on my scumtell on Fungrus doesn't prove or disprove that it is a valid tell. I consider it a valid tell, decide whether I am doing that because I am brilliant, stupid, or scum, but don't just act as though the tell is invalid in my belief system unless you just want to always lynch people whose playstyles you disagree with.

You clearly seem to think of me as scum, so for convenience sake can you explain exactly what makes me scummy? I'm sure it would be more convenient for other's as well as for me to explain anything.

Already done to an extent - but frankly unless I'm actively voting you it's not advantageous to work up a case on you and drum up support.

Does that mean you find everyone you talk to scummy?

That was an actual question btw.

Really?
Wooosh.

That was an actual answer.

No, I don't find everyone i talk to scummy - that's insane to even begin to believe.
Yes, the people I actively am questioning/probing are more likely to be scum in my eyes and the people I am more relaxed around are more likely to be town in my eyes - that's common sense.

[Thor665]

Simply because you were talking to everyone but him, which is why saying that you have a "towntell" on him seems bogus to me. Also, me having a towntell on someone does not mean everyone does.

Thor: Glass - iz u the scummorz?
Glass: Noooooes!!!1! Why don't you look for scummorz in ender? Look at ender!!!
Thor: I think ender is townz, why should I look at him, iz he scummorz!?!
Glass: Nah, I think he'z townz too.
Thor: ...then...why should I investigate him...?
Glass: Stop acting scummy.

::shrug::

Because you want to get a reaction out of him? Don't think that's working for you mate.

I give up less easily than you I suppose.

Since when did I say I didn't like your playstyle? That was Mr.Bump.

You keep dodging and weaving around stuff and bringing up other players in your answers. Good deflection from my stated issue.

The quick change of votes is a pretty weak scumtell as, generally, scum want to lynch somebody.

I feel zero pressure towards me from your end and that's making you look really scummy to me.

This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't moments.... Unless I'm missing something?

Town want to lynch somebody too. You're taking a discussion of why something doesn't qualify as a scumtell and making the presumption that the opposite does qualify as a scumtell - that is not an accurate conclusion. Your lack of scumhunting is a scumtell however.

[Thor665]

2. The Glass on Thor action has got to stop soon. Or at least be more clear.

I stopped it a while ago when I announced I was waiting for Fungrus and et al, the last two or three was because Glass started asking questions and then he broke off the conversation because I think the answers worried him

Quick Note, the little scenarios are amusing but could I get some direct quotes on this issue.

Here He wants to know why I'm not calling ender scummy.
I say I have a town read on ender and ask why he thinks ender is scummy in the post right below.
Here he says he doesn't have a scum read on ender and in the same post lists him as a town read.
So...he wants to know why I haven't called someone he has a town read on scum...??? Looks like a blatant deflection attempt and none of it makes sense from a logical perspective, you're going to demand someone investigates a player you think is town? Bwuh?
Solid scumtell on Glass to be revisited once I'm done with Korts and Fungrus.

@ender - you think I'm bullying someone so I can lynch and kill someone and you also think I'm town? You later say I'm bullying for information. Which is it? Is it both, and if so how?

[Thor665]

Thor - how does this:

I'll agree a total lack of reasons to vote someone is bad, but it's not scummy. It's poor play. Scum and town generally commit poor play proportionally to each other.

jibe with this:

@Glass - it's not that he didn't vote him, it's that he called his actions scummy and didn't vote for him. If you have no reads on anyone and then someone does something scummy what reason is there to not vote them? I submit that there really isn't one (especially in this game setup and at this stage of the game).

How does it not?

Statement 1 - Lack of reasons to vote someone is bad but not scummy.

Statement 2 - Someone is scummy because they called someone scummy and didn't vote for them (in the exceedingly low information stage of Page 1)

I don't even see a solid connection between them, much less a contradiction. Help?

I think you tunnelled on Glass pretty hard for pages 3-4, and the line "but I feel zero pressure towards me from your end" is just condescending as hell, as is "I really am beginning to wonder if I'm typing in a strange dialect you don't understand" and "same way you'd explain them to a not-so bright rock". I feel like you're attacking on an emotional basis at least as much as you are a logical one, trying to get people to rile up and make mistakes. But since my experience is that Town gets more emotional than Mafia when accused (who have a buddy to back them up), I don't get why you're taking that tack. Do you always start games this way? I don't have time to scan your past games right now, but I'd love an answer anyway.

I will note pages 3-4 happened in one evening, so keep that in perspective.
I'll also note at least one of the comments I was 'emotional attacking' in was me insulting my own intelligence - there appeared to be a communication difference between him and I that I was trying to sort out because we appeared to be talking at cross purposes. Those always annoy me as clarity in understanding is the crux of the game.
I think it's gutsy to say that scum are less emotional than town - but you are correct insomuch as I was looking to get some emotional rises out of him. I find them useful scumhunting tools and apparently (judging by Bump's 'coolness') so do you. I think we're debating along the same lines of scum vs. town tells in deciding lynches and the answer is both can be and are useful.
For the self-meta question; I do tend to be bombastic on Day 1, sometimes more and sometimes less. I've noted I'm more aggressive the less I feel people are talking and feel this reflects across my games of the past six months or so. Feel free to research and draw your own conclusions.

@Whoever asked me about my FoS- I think Ender is cruising with his Newbie-status a little TOO much, to the point of overkill. But then again Glass has deflected questions.

Can someone PLEASE tell me where I have allegedly deflected questions? I thought all my answers were pretty straightforward.

I think it's pretty obvious he's taking my deflecting suspicion scumtell on you and rewriting it in his head/words as deflecting questions. Doesn't make me feel super excited about his belief in my case

I thought at the time "Oh, no one would possibly accuse someone of Mafia for something so miniscule." Clearly I was wrong. Am I not allowed to make a bloody joke?

Jokes and serious posts both hold town and scum tells. Every post is a possible tell. Just because it's a joke doesn't mean you're not accountable for what is said if people find the joke scummy.

@Thor, what read do you get on Glass?

I like my deflecting suspicion case on him and consider that quite scummy. I could be pretty happy lynching him today.
Frankly Fungrus keeps looking worse to me however.
I'd lynch Fungrus, Glass, and Korts in that order till I hit scum if I was the only one with the power to choose.

[Thor665]

Thor - how does this:

I'll agree a total lack of reasons to vote someone is bad, but it's not scummy. It's poor play. Scum and town generally commit poor play proportionally to each other.

jibe with this:

@Glass - it's not that he didn't vote him, it's that he called his actions scummy and didn't vote for him. If you have no reads on anyone and then someone does something scummy what reason is there to not vote them? I submit that there really isn't one (especially in this game setup and at this stage of the game).

How does it not?

Statement 1 - Lack of reasons to vote someone is bad but not scummy.

Statement 2 - Someone is scummy because they called someone scummy and didn't vote for them (in the exceedingly low information stage of Page 1)

I don't even see a solid connection between them, much less a contradiction. Help?

The first one says that scum and town commit poor play in equal proportion - the second says that not voting someone for poor play is scummy. Why would you vote somebody just for poor play, if town and scum do it equally? If they do it equally, then how is it even scummy?

I'm leaving my posts attached so you can see that clearly at no point in the second post did I use the phrase 'poor play' I specifically noted that Fungrus called it scummy play and didn't vote for it. If he'd called it poor play it might be something different - but he called it scummy. Therein lies the difference.

The Fungrus wagon suddenly has some interesting movement on it. Now we're cooking with fire. I second Flay's question to Lateralus - he pegged the more odd of the shifts.

[Thor665]

Post-New Year's Eve hangover eluded me, so I'll be catching up today.

I very much look forward to this.

[Thor665]

Greetings,

V/LA till Friday

I apologize for the slow in activity but I am horribly sick at the moment. I'm obligated to be human again by Thursday due to work requirements but will probably spend most of it and Friday trying to catch back up with myself. I should be back to regular posting Friday evening. Apologies - I'm not enough in my right head to even want to try to read the last few posts I missed. I'll admit an immediate knee-jerk reaction to seeing Korts attack me, but I'll want to examine that more when I'm not on medication.

See you all Friday.
Thor.

[Thor665]

Greetings,

I am back.

Cirno is here...

I still legitimately want to lynch Korts or fungrus. I've been dinged for "not moving my vote today" by dram (?) but please get over your bad self.
Glass is town.
dram is town.
Lat is town.
ender is a newbie and is working hard to be a compromise lynch of the day, but I don't think he's the smart lynch.
Bump I keep going back and forth on, but I'm frankly leaning town at the moment.
I'd probably be willing to lynch cirno too, but it's just because she's almost as dangerous as town near endgame as she would be as scum

[Thor665]

@dram - you call me out for being basically one of the worst for providing opinions on the game. Please compare/contrast me to Korts (who did just flake, I'll admit) and get back to me with thoughts.

[Thor665]

Well, in my first post I voted Fungrus... I then also later said I found Korts to be becoming more scummy. I was finding Korts more scummy because of the lurkage and lack of reads i was getting from the slot. Part of that is annoyingly null now that he flaked, but I still find the slot a sore spot I'd like to cure via Bengay or lynch.

----------------fake separate post----------------------

Glass started acting in a way I found more and more obviously town.

[Thor665]

I know voting scumbuddies is good at times, I did a lot of bussing in WWX. Yes Glass, he was with me accusing Napher. But he's jumped onto this vote which is THE most OBVIOUS OMGUS I have ever seen. He voted me because I pointed out what I believe to be a slip. How can you make a mistake that bad?

Haven't you pointed out though that he was voting you three different times today? I'm mostly dinging this one because OMGUS is a terrible scum/towntell in my opinion. It's highly subjective, highly misunderstood, and highly misapplied all over this site.

Lynch Ender guys. To me, MrBump reads like an exasperated townie. My reads are as accurate as a lottery raffle.

I basically agree here, except my reads are usually a bit more accurate

@Thor

: I keep making mistakes lately. This is what I meant to ask:

In your first post, you vote

Fungrus

for withholding his vote after calling somebody scummy. Later you mentioned that

Fungrus

was looking
more and more scummy, so I was wondering what it was you found so scummy about him after that first 'vote withholding' thing?

Basically, what did you find scummy about Fungrus after your initial vote?

Uh...??? not sure. I'm going to go search my iso and see if I can find the comment you're referring to.
...
...
Best I have is my iso #17 where I say Fungrus keeps looking worse to me.
Scrolling up from that we find this post from Fungrus. I hope I actually don't need to explain why it look sbad, but will settle for the buzzwords of bandwagony and poorly supported logic that came from no base I could detect.

[Thor665]

And to clarify, the middle quote above I'm agreeing with the Bump aspect, not the lynch ender aspect. I suspect the ender lynch is full of fail.

[Thor665]

How would you two feel about a Fungrus lynch? Unless you have a town read on him he ought to be a solid option - yes?

---

MrBump (1): ender241
Fungrus (1): Thor665
Thor665 (2): Korts, dramonic
Korts (1): Fungrus
ender241 (3): MrBump, Cirno, Lateralus22

Not voting (1): Glass

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
Deadline is January 14th, 2010 at 4:00PM.

[Thor665]

...um...yeah, but that happens with anyone. Put the pressure on him sooner so he has an urge to claim sooner - problem solved as much as it can be.
It's a better option then waiting for Korts replacement and *then* trying to run up one of them, yes?

[Thor665]

Cirno - I'll caution that you and I have had that conversation you are trying to start with Glass before. Please be aware of your tunnels before you walk into them. Feel free to pursue the expressed Fungrus suspicion - I see that as the best nugget you have there.

Also, you didn't answer my question to you - town read on Fungrus? Do you have one? Would you vote him?

[Thor665]

Please don't bother with stuff like this.

It's good for a player like you to hear about their tunnels and be reminded not to crawl into them - there is no need to request a lack of those reminders that I can see, and I made the reminder in a polite way. So please just take it as it was intended. The best way to shut me up about the concerns I have about your playstyle is to show me those concerns are unfounded.

Also, you forgot my manly beard in that picture - otherwise it's spot on.

[Thor665]

@Bump - reading your last post you appear to both be defending (first and second lines) and condemning (3rd line) Fungrus. Thoughts?

[Thor665]

I actually wasn't upset about it in an emotional sense until you said that. Bad Cirno! No cookie! Prepare to hear more smug play advice from me in the future after that admission.

[Thor665]

@dram - that's why I'm not currently voting Kort and why I am currently referring to his flaking out, not lurking out, natch. That said, look at blue eyes and tell me that replace in post isn't questionable (though it is an awesome Starbuck avatar, I'll admit ) While we're at it, what do you think of Fungrus' play, I'm not sure you've weighed in on it. Are you pro/anti that wagon and why?

I agree that all talk of lynching ender today is stupid/fail. The breakdown is this;

1. He's doc, scum have no roleblocker. They either have to kill him or risk having a kill blocked. Good for town.
2. He's doc, there is a roleblocker. They can either kill him to kill PR, or they can RB him and leave him for town to stew on - either option leaves cop more wiggle room. Good for town.
3. He's fake claiming scum. Lack of counterclaim adds canoodling to this, but this is, at best, a coin flip if he is. Bad for town.

Two fo three looks like townvandtage if we leave him alive for at least another day. He's discussion tomorrow, not lynch today. Bump's hanging on is noted.

[Thor665]

And to clariy - if there is a counter doc claim, I don't want it made today.

[Thor665]

@dramonic - so...glass is possibly scum with me (or scum if i'm not scum?) pushing a mislynch *or* he's scum pushing a bus on his buddy. Is there any situation wherein he doesn't looks scum after a Fungrus lynch?
I was actually tagging blue for the continuation of the Korts pogrom, which was barely supported or explained and suddenly she's right in lockstep with it. In my experience that's a scumtell because usually town come in with their own concepts whereas scum will often trail along and keep up the status quo.

@Bump - the fungrus case is his strategic lurking and the way he's come in after being away on two seperate occasions and immediately supported wagon of the month. Why are you against his wagon - that's as valid of a question as the one you keep asking. Who is a better scum candidate and why, if not Fungrus who?

Also, 2 of the things are similar, they are not the same. Do you 100% think ender is fake claiming at this stage? Really?

[Thor665]

I'd call that last post a town tell on Cirno - but last time I identified her as town she tried to lynch me, so...she's probably scum

[Thor665]

Please explain how your hands are dirty and showcase something I could do to get my hands dirty and I promise to consider it.

[Thor665]

You voted once in the whole game, in the FIRST post you made. You have not FoSed or voted anyone since then. What I am seeing is you sitting back and discussing theory instead of doing any scumhunting outside of Fungrus.

I feel I've given a wider palette of opinions and reads.

Personally, I think I've been quite aggressive and clear in offering opinions and thoughts on other players, I'd say go read me again - if you still can't find substantive opinions I'll happily go out and find a number of opinion posts from myself. More and beyond that I would *happily* invite comparison of the number of clear opinions I've made in thread vs. half the player base and that includes yourself. I personally think I've made more.

I will agree that my vote hasn't moved much but...so what? Do you think Fungrus is town? If the answer is no, and I've already indicated that I find Bump and ender the other two wagon options as town (y'know, while avoiding giving opinions) then who should I be voting again...yeah.

Also, in your wide palette of opinions - could you go back and find where you commented on Fungrus? I'd still like to hear your read there and don't think you've made it clear. Please help me find it or state it for the first time, either way.

[Thor665]

Thor, your puppet is not making sense, I have to take it away from you, even if it means letting you off for now.

Frankly I think his plan there reads as 'trying to be more clever then is smart' and he had no real need to admit it so I don't see a scum motivation there.

[Thor665]

Okay, I'm back being down for a Cirno lynch again.

Everyone who is the lone person on their wagon (Darla, Bump, dramonic, Glass) you better start either screaming bloody murder about what a great wagon that is, or find another wagon you consider tenable.

@Lateralus - you alive? New comments pl0x.
@Darla - you alive? New comments pl0x.
@Fungrus - I actually am sold on the Korts slot being scummy, but its flaked out so bad everything I consider it scummy for is hard to take seriously at this stage. What's your case on the Korts slot?

[Thor665]

Blargh!

Good luck to both sides, I'll catch you all endgame, have fun and kill the other team.

[Thor665]

"I believe killing Thor is a good idea regardless of role."



Sorry for lateness of this pose, I've been busy. I'll be through this weekend with a little post game write-up for all the newbies wherein I preach a lot and act very self-important, but mostly just try to offer a few tidbits and thoughts of where your play can be improved. Hope to see you all in other games here on site.

[Thor665]

VRK wouldn't do that to me, I'm immensely lovable.

[Thor665]

Flay is pretty close to my logic. The breakdown was that either the "Doc" was a real Doc - in which case there would be no counterclaims, as scum generally aren't that stupid.
Or the "Doc" was scum - if the "Doc" was scum all a counterclaim would do at that point is out the real Doc to scum and also allow scum to, if they do/don't have a roleblocker, surmise some information about the role setup that i would rather they don't have.

Worst case - real Doc is night killed, and at that point fake Doc is dead anyway, counterclaim or no. If Doc lives a night he isn't outed, had a chance to use his power, and can counterclaim at that point when town has more time to discuss the variables. Or you could get a late day counterclaim cluster fest like we did in this game, which in Newbies can be pretty dangerous.

That's my theory at least.