Blackest Night Mafia (GAME OVER!)

[xvart]

Hello everyone. Happy hunting.

AGM's questions:

1. No
   
2. I wouldn't N0 vig with this player list.
   
3. No; I would win without cheating.
   
4. Depending on the person, I would probably go 30 to me and 70 to the other person. I would much rather have a personal favor or someone feel obligated to provide me with a service later on down the line.
   
5. Same as previous, although I would probably make the split 400k, 600k.

Unlike Vi, I will answer AGM's questions:

Why did you feel the need to point this out? Are you suspicious of Vi for not answering the questions?

Oops, Guderian already asked this.

Actually, Vi's response was the last one I saw before I started typing. Afterwards, there were a few more posts, and I didn't feel the need to edit based on the preview.

You didn't answer the question. Did you think it was suspicious at the time of your posting? And what is the relevance of it not mattering since nobody between Vi not answering the question and your comment refused to answer the questions?

*I co-modded Pledge of Allegiance, another game where people could choose their alignment.
Giving everyone the alignment they wanted, it came down to
**5 Mafia
**8 Neutral
**11 Town
so even after accounting for differences in the player list, the idea that EVERYONE would choose Town is probably not true at all.
*People picking a "challenging" alignment works mostly if they like being either alignment.

Going along these lines it should also be noted that DGB played the "everyone knows I picked town" card early in the game and she flipped scum, so Fate's (or anyones) post in the signup thread will not dissuade me from thinking he is scum if he behaves like scum.

Also, Vi - along these lines, what do you think of SpyreX's post here:

my second pick was orange and i didn't get it

You both were co-mods in Pledge of Allegiance so I think SpyreX would know that a decent number of people would probably pick Orange as their first pick so why would he pick a singular faction that would go to someone's number one? It seems like a throw away color choice.

VOTE: Toogeloo

[xvart]

You didn't know Goofy was much much better as scum than Town? She was the one driving the scum team!

I don't know what to make of SpyreX's post. I don't know anything about his dis/like for being third party/SK, but more importantly I don't know why he would say he didn't draw orange in the first place. The logic behind picking orange as second can be explained by any number of things considering he didn't have an alignment at the time. His post is certainly no Town-tell, at any rate.

I can't really think of a reason to pick Orange as a second pick since there most likely is going to be at least one person out of any group of 25 that would pick Orange, so going for Orange as a second pick is just going to be a waste; especially when there is probably three basic permutations of color choices:

• town color/town color;
  
• scum color/scum color; or
  
• SK color/town or scum color.

Picking [preferred alignment]/Orange just eliminates the opportunity to get a preference of alignment if the first choice is full already. I assume it would be pot luck for anyone who didn't get either of their choices of just filling in the cracks.

What do you think of AlmasterGM?

Since he has little to go outside of his first post, I'm assuming you mean what do I think about him asking questions or the questions themselves? In general, I find RVQ (or whatever you want to call it) to be uninteresting unless there is subsequent discussion about whether or not the person asking the questions is role fishing and who is scummy for answering or not answering. I have no problem with the questions he asked as I don't see how scum could discern information from whether or not people got their first pick other than maybe processing along the lines of Andy's thinking of metaing people and their possible preferences. I suppose it might help one scum team identify other scum members if scum team A says "So-and-So got his first pick and would pick scum, and since he isn't on our team then he is probably on the other team."

[xvart]

Sooo, considering this came AFTER I said what my thought process was are you saying I'm just making stuff up or not reading my words?

I actually missed your post but it doesn't matter because the post of yours to which you are referring makes no sense and I mentioned things that were outside the context of your post, namely, as the co mod of pledge of allegiance did you really think that nobody in a pool of 25 people would pick SK as their number one pick (since 7 people picked independent in PoA)? And, regardless of the fact that there is going to be a serial killer no matter what and what has been already said in subsequent posts, how does you getting your first pick mean you know for certain that there would be serial killer?

Well, my answer was in reference as to why I posted the, "Unlike Vi..." comment. I don't care why AGM didn't answer his own questions, but if you guys are prone to wanting people to answer questions they ask, why didn't you answer the one you just asked me?

What are you talking about? Not that I even said anything about AGM not answering his own questions, but there is only a mile of difference between why someone would answer their own questions in a RQS and someone answering the question they asked when they said "Why did you vote for so-and-so."

But while we're at it, AGM, why didn't you answer your own questions?

78 was sarcasm

heyhey reck im not getting the tans town logic here

only reason i can see spyspy picking orange second is to confirm the presence of an orange
that or he had some small inner desire and hope of being sk

This is 1000000% right.

Seriously I used all these words.

So... considering this came AFTER this post are you saying your not reading their words? Please explain how you getting your first choice would confirm that there was a SK since you picked it second?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SpyreX

[xvart]

Welp, assuming sens is telling the truth I don't even have to ask my question because this game obviously doesn't follow the same methodology that others of this variant would. Considering I'm not the only one who has ran draft variants here and I'm prettyyyyy sure that none of them would give out things if they weren't picked (like SK for example ohhh shiii) well then the like I said albeit small help in knowing orange isn't there isn't there at all.

Again, based on your experience co modding a alignment selection game did you think nobody would pick third party? And again, how does you getting your first draft pick ensure you would know if there was a serial killer or not? I cannot possibly think of another draft variant where this would be applicable but I am willing to be proven wrong.

If its because I'm scum lets dance.

I guess I better get my dancing shoes on.

@Everyone voting for Spyrex

– I’d like to know how his mind-bogglingly strange logic regarding choosing Orange as a second color and it being meaningful (which appears to be from a misunderstanding of how roles would be distributed) is in any way a scum-tell.

Because, as I have said, SpyreX would know, based on past modding experience, that beyond a doubt at least one person would pick third party as an alignment choice, so therefore if he did pick Orange as a second choice he would never get it, so choosing Orange for his second choice is a wasted pick. If he wanted to be town he could have picked two town options. If he didn't want to be scum he increased his chances of getting a scum role by picking Orange as his second color because if he picked Green and didn't get it because a lot of people picked Green he would get defaulted to something else outside of his color selection.

Added on top of that his whole "I wanted to confirm if there was a SK or not" makes no sense and is a terribly justified (and invalid) reason under the guise of "trying to get information" for the town to operate. Once again, given his experience modding draft variant games he should know how getting his first choice would not give him any information about his selection below his first choice, regardless of if the role was guaranteed to be in the game or not.

Further I suggest from what I know about SSBF I would doubt taking the scum route would be his logical choice of action. Given how he felt about his SK role in Clash of Kings Mafia him throwing Orange as a color choice feels very unlikely.

Actually, when you said this it did jog my memory into thinking that SSBF was pretty vocal about hating SK roles and was ready to go for a sensfan lynch if SpyreX falls through; but I went and looked at his post game comments and he never actually said he hated SK roles or anything like that. He actually asked for improvement techniques for the future. I swear he alluded to hating independent roles somewhere but it wasn't in that thread, so I can believe he might not avoid being SKer.

Spyrex Agent Orange:

It's a bit peculiar that Spyrex picked Orange as his second but what scum motivation does it represent again?

Maybe he actually went Orange for his first pick and said it was his second because he knew anyone who picked Orange as their second pick wouldn't get it. Or, maybe he went scum and picked the two other alignments as his vocalized picks to further get people to think he was town. Regardless, he is hiding something and people that hide things are more likely scum more often than not.

I recognize SpyreX's line of thinking "'Don't want to be scum' 'SK could be fun' 'Town is fun' hence Town/SK with a side of knowing it exists if I don't get it". Just throwing that out there.

So maybe you can explain how someone picking Orange as their second pick would confirm if there was a SK or not if that person got their first pick? SpyreX doesn't seem to want to answer the question and since you recognize the line of thinking maybe you can help us out? (I see tans said almost the exact same thing verbatim a little later).

And why is this

scummy? PREVIEW EDIT: Yeah, what NPAU said. Nice jumping on the stupid bandwagon (and I mean no real disrespect, but that bandwagon is facepalm worthy).

So you don't think that with SpyreX's knowledge and experience with draft games and pick your alignment games he wouldn't know better?

2) I'd probably shoot xvart given a chance =P

This makes me sad.

[xvart]

What relevance does pyp have? Is that what you were referring to?

The relevance that I see is that in PYP you confirm someone else has picked a role above you if you don't get the role, but not the other way around. Another strike against the confirm Orange below him.

@xvart -

Well, on the fly, this is what I thought: First I recognized the 'Would like to be Town/would see some fun in being SK as well'. Second, if the only pick for Orange out of everyone's two picks was someone's second choice that's almost certainly where it would go/what would happen. So if you don't get it as a second choice means someone chose it above you and presumably got it. Assuming Spy thought that SK would only be given to a request for Orange, that makes sense. Not that it's flawless logic given things like the fact that the plan seems to have been to give out Orange come hell or high water, but it's not without some degree of thought behind it.

If he was really thinking "woohoo SK might be fun" he would have picked Orange first and town second since the likelihood of many people picking Orange (x) and him getting it out of that pool is 1/x, and then he would be defaulted to his "preferred alignment" as his second choice. And again, with his knowledge of player preference of picking third party (7/24 in Pledge of Allegiance) he would know that it was unlikely to get it as his first pick, so woohoo giggles if he did.

If you can point out any scum motivation I'm all ears. I'm not saying it should be taken as a Towntell empirically (though I certainly don't find it scummifies SpyreX), but I fail to see any scum motivation here. Again.

I already did, in the same post you quoted:

Spyrex Agent Orange:

It's a bit peculiar that Spyrex picked Orange as his second but what scum motivation does it represent again?

Maybe he actually went Orange for his first pick and said it was his second because he knew anyone who picked Orange as their second pick wouldn't get it. Or, maybe he went scum and picked the two other alignments as his vocalized picks to further get people to think he was town. Regardless, he is hiding something and people that hide things are more likely scum more often than not.

Whether he is serial killer or scum is of no consequences to me right now. I hope he is on one of the scum teams because it will give us some pretty good leads for tomorrow with some of the resistance that has been shown to his wagon.

It comes down to which version of events you believe. There's his own story, of course. There's potential for an ulterior motive in throwing away his second choice, namely that he REALLY wanted whatever color he chose.

But he didn't say this, did he? He didn't say anything even remotely resembling this. And what town purpose would there be to lie about some ulterior motive of this nature? What town motivation is there to hide any ulterior motive?

Further evidence of why you should be voting SpyreX since, as you said, if he lied and slipped then he is scum, and I don't see hiding a ulterior motive as being a townie motivation and therefore a lie.

personally im of the belief that we shouldnt necessarily be worrying about orange for the time being but thats just me

It is just as likely he is scum that requested scum but said his preferences were the two other options so it looked like he did not want to be scum and that he wasn't Orange because he picked it second.

[xvart]

k we dont hafta
but like wouldnt that make it really obv where the mafia are
even if the fakeclaims are distributed evenly theres still gonna be one color group that has a fuckload more people claiming in it than the others

Whoops. The mafia have fake claims?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: xRECKONERx

[xvart]

So it comes down to
*believing his explanation
*calling him a liar for some reason
and I don't really see a reason to believe he's lying.

So you believe his explanation despite his knowledge/experience of draft variant/alignment selection and subsequent refusal to answer direct questions about his explanation? Interesting, seeing as you were the co-mod of Pledge of Allegiance with him, I'm having a difficult time swallowing your belief of his explanation that he would think it would even be remotely possible to get a SK as his second pick.

mafia obviously have fakeclaims
otherwise a mass colorclaim could break the setup

you shut your whore mouth xvart

I guess since the number of people have posted and not thought this was a scumslip maybe so, but humor me: how would a mass color claim break the game without fakeclaims?

Regardless of whether or not your definitive knowledge that scum have fake claims is a legitimate setup observation or not, you are still scum, detailed below. I'm going to go back and look at you in relation to SpyreX to see if you two might be on the same team or if one of you will provide more knowledge of the others alignment as a scum pair.

UNVOTE:

lets do some old fashioned scumhunting instead

I guess you haven't noticed but some of us have been doing that all game.

While were on the subject of Reck... I find it really interesting that he has so many conditional reads based on SensFan flipping scum:

scummy players include
guderian
sensfan
kdub

note to self
if sens flips scum dram is his buddy

im not flipflopping on you babe
youre town unless sensfan flips scum

interesting to note
if dram is scum and thats a bigggggg if
then vi and agm are town since he ignored them completely
he chose to focus on the sens vs moi argument which means one of them is probably scum and he wants to look good should one of them get lynched
and he chose to focus on moi over sens which makes sens the more likely buddy

but once again this is all speculation based solely on the idea that sensfan is in fact scum
and there are like four people id rather lynch before sensfan so yeah

First of all, you essentially did flip flop on dramatic based on SensFan flipping scum. You said SensFan was scummy, you said dram was scummy if Sens flipped scum, then said dram is town unless sens flips scum. Sounds pretty definitive to me that you think SensFan is scum and dramatic is his buddy except you later say if dram is scum (a bigggggg if). Does not compute with your SensFan read. And why are so many people above SensFan on your lynch list if you think he is scum and you get the bonus of all your conditional reads pending his flip?

And what is the point of the following comment when, at the point of this post, dram has barely made any comments about anyone being scum?

also would like to point out
i know how dramonic likes to play as scum
he likes to bus bus bus bus bus

but hes not gonna outright bus all his buddies

a little bit of meta from reckoner for ya

and starbuck is still town

SpyreX and Reckoner are two good lynches today. I'll be back with a vote on one of them later after I do some more reading.

[xvart]

What part of anything have I not directly answered?

Let us see. You said one of the bonuses of picking SK second was that you would know if there was a SK or not. The direct questions are bolded, but the other questions in these quotes would be great if answered as well:

I actually missed your post but it doesn't matter because the post of yours to which you are referring makes no sense and I mentioned things that were outside the context of your post, namely, as the co mod of pledge of allegiance did you really think that nobody in a pool of 25 people would pick SK as their number one pick (since 7 people picked independent in PoA)? And, regardless of the fact that there is going to be a serial killer no matter what and what has been already said in subsequent posts,

how does you getting your first pick mean you know for certain that there would be serial killer?

Again, based on your experience co modding a alignment selection game did you think nobody would pick third party?

And again, how does you getting your first draft pick ensure you would know if there was a serial killer or not?

I cannot possibly think of another draft variant where this would be applicable but I am willing to be proven wrong.

Additionally to note that other people may not have directly asked you to explain this but others have commented on it, too.

---

Now, see, if it were actually

town

playing up this "why would you ever not pick two town colors omg sk blah blah" then I'd sure as hell have expected even a peep about the fact Sens did the

exact same thing

.

But, there hasn't been. Why?

Gee thats a mystery.

Ahhh... nice try. It's not really a mystery at all. The whole point about you specifically was because of your experience with draft variants and modding alignment selection games. I've made that abundantly clear (as minimally displayed in the quotes above). I don't think SSBF has your experience with these games and I know he wasn't in Pledge of Allegiance. The difference in reasons why you might pick Orange second and why SSBF might pick Orange second are profound, as should be obvious by now. Plus your reluctance to discuss the matter hasn't helped your case at all.

[xvart]

EBWOP: Forgot to copy this over from another tab:

As for looking at SpyreX and Reck together neither of them have said anything about the other except for this vague comment by Reck that I assume was directed at the SpyreX/Orange chatter, dismissing it as SK hunting. If they both are scum (and I believe they are) it is slightly more likely that they are on the same team than on opposing teams.

personally im of the belief that we shouldnt necessarily be worrying about orange for the time being but thats just me

VOTE: SpyreX

[xvart]

Like I said, I didn't think about it much. I went "Town is awesome, SK might be fun, and if I get town then there's probably an SK because setting up a with first and seconds means that if anyone requested it, even as a second, they'd place it"

This is the last I'll say of it for now, but I find it very difficult to believe this was your thought process and subsequent actions, not to mention that I do not believe your thinking about the draft order process would be so faulty.

That doesn't change not a whit at none of you mentioning Sens.

It does, actually. If you can point out SensFan's games where he has played/modded draft games or alignment selection games I'm all ears. You have a unique knowledge base (at least more so than probably a significant number of players in this game) due to your history.

Ooou the scumteam building now.

Hardly. I think you both are scum independent of each other, there are two scum teams, so naturally I am trying to see if you might be on the same team or not. As I said, there is nothing definitive due to your mutual lack of interaction but Reck's comment makes it slightly more likely that you would be on a team together than not. But what is your beef with scum team building? Is it scummy to speculate on scumteams?

because then scum would have to make up their own claims and we could wind up with like a shit ton of claims for one or two colors
then if there were only four claims in a certain color category all four of those people would be confirmed town

Right... because I'm sure that the scum teams would be stupid enough not to coordinate alternating color claims within their own faction; but to be fair, your point is relevant today if they did not have N0 discussion available to them.

actually if you read closer i said that dram was townish for pointing out npiau being scummy

1

i essentially maintained that my read on him remains the same unless sensfan flips scum

2

i also stated there are plenty of people id like to lynch before sensfan

3

1

In a two scum faction game how does that make dram townish? If you think that is a honest tell then wouldn't it just mean he was not scum with nopoint?

2

You are contextualizing your dram read inaccurately. You have, on multiple occasions and in multiple ways, said SensFan is scum. Ergo, dram is scum. So saying that dram is townish unless SensFan flips scum is contradictory in a way.

3

Why do you want to lynch others over SensFan? You talk a lot about SensFan being scum and a lot of reads building off of him being scum so why isn't he a higher priority? Why do you talk so much about SensFan?

because dram lurks
then has to make catchup posts
in which he busses his buddies
listen if anyone on this site can read dram its me lets get serious here

And the point of talking about dram bussing but not bussing his entire team when he had given like one scum read all game was what? Just to be helpful?

@xvart: I don't Spyrex saying he picked Orange second make him a liar. I mean the way I picked my color is by preference for the color instead of the alignment each color represents. So ...

You picked your colors based on what colors you like? Seriously? Even so, like I said to Vi, he did not say this so what purpose do you have speculating on a reason he might have given but didn't?

The case on Reck is stupid, of course scum will have safeclaims in a game this size and with the given flavor. And how is his conditional reads based on Sens scummy?

Reck has essentially made reference to SensFan being scum more than anyone else yet has no desire to lynch him right now. He has a lot of reads based on SensFan flipping scum. Meanwhile he is vote hopping around other people based on one post comments and other such things. He also has contradictory reads:

• SensFan is scum;
  
• If SensFan is scum then dramatic is scum; and,
  
• Dramatic being scum is not likely (paraphrased from the "if dram is scum (a biggggg if)" comment).

So Reck thinks SensFan is scum, dramatic is not scum, but they both have to be scum together?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: xRECKONERx

SpyreX - we'll have to continue dancing later. However, until then, how important do you think it is to understand the draft process in any draft game?

[xvart]

If you think I'm lying, vote. Don't go "ohhh, we'll do this again."

Put your money where your mouth is.

Seriously? I've been locked on you and "putting my money where my mouth is" with a vote pretty much all game.

And when your initial premise is junk and lo and behold you're jumping wagons again on more junk (which I'll wait for others because wouldn't want to protect my super-awesome scumpartner) Its not worth the time.

Jumping wagons again? That's laughable. I've articulated exactly why I think both you and Reck are scum, independent of each other. I would love to lynch either of you today and it really makes no difference to me. I think lynching you today

might

give a slight hint of Reck also being scum with you but that is not really needed since he is scummy on his own merits. I've gotten no traction with the masses on getting you lynched so I'm going back the other direction. Even so, is vote hopping scummy?

If I have a bullet, you're going sleepytime.

So your faction is going to kill me tonight?

Also, do I need to start bolding questions to you? Maybe make them larger or something?

Hardly. I think you both are scum independent of each other, there are two scum teams, so naturally I am trying to see if you might be on the same team or not. As I said, there is nothing definitive due to your mutual lack of interaction but Reck's comment makes it slightly more likely that you would be on a team together than not.

But what is your beef with scum team building? Is it scummy to speculate on scumteams?

[xvart]

3 sensfan is crucial to my dram read which in turn is crucial to my npiau read

So if SensFan is the key ingredient in this scum team and his scum flip indites the others as being scum, why are you not voting him? You have your lynch priorities out of whack, which is super scummy. Seriously, you are reverse lining up lynches or something like that. SensFan being scum makes dramonic more likely scum. dramonic being scum makes nopoint more likely scum. You are starting at nopoint?

in case you are having trouble grasping it im insinuating at sensfan-dramonic-npiau scumteam

So with dramonic being on this scum team can you explain your comment where you said "if dramonic is scum (biggggg if)". To me that pretty clearly says he is not scum.

[xvart]

PREDIT: xvart just shut up it took me awhile to figure all this out.

BOTTOM LINE IS AS FOLLOWS:
DRAMONIC IS SCUM WITH NOPOINTINACTINGUP AND SENSFAN
I DO NOT CARE WHICH OF THE THREE WE LYNCH TODAY

You are missing the whole point. You said scumSensFan implies scumDram, which implies scumnopoint, and you want to start at nopoint and work your way backwards? On what planet is does this line of thinking imply the best lynch order starts with the person that is contingent on two other unflipped people being scum? Is SensFan your buddy and this is a terrible passive aggressive bus?

@Vi: By spyspy wagon I meant the one in the early pages where people piled onto him for his choice of orange despite the explanations. It's just so easy imo for scum to go like "OMG YOU CLAIMED ORANGE SCUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM /VOTE" with the guise of looking town.
Which is also somewhat my reasoning for the reck votes that accumulated shortly after your analysis calling reck SK.

Even though I see a couple people have already commented on this and despite the fact that it is directed at Vi, as I believe I am one of the people you are accusing of going "'OMG YOU CLAIMED ORANGE SCUMMMM' with the guise of looking town" you have your facts wrong. I never said SpyreX was scum for picking Orange and since I have been beating that horse all game that should be pretty obvious. Go back and read my ISO and you'll have a pretty clear picture that him picking Orange has little to do with why he is scum.

Meh, nevermind, my last post was bullshit.

Dram's still scum though.

Hello? I'm not asking questions to entertain myself here. Explain this post:

if dram is scum and thats a bigggggg if

---

@Sens vs MoI: Scummalicious =D
now which is scummier, the guy who goes ''woe is me, the mod hates me and is out to smite me because he's nothing better to do'', or the one going ''Since the person you are replacing is likely to be town, and you say he chose scum and say you are town, you must be scum!''...

Let’s look at the what we know.

1. Sens claims that SSBF sent in a color choice of Scum / SK.
2. SSBF in Choose Your Side chose a Town alignment over either Scum or 3rd party.
3. SSBF wasn’t thrilled with his play in Clash of Kings as a Serial Killer.

I don’t think SSBF sending Scum / SK makes much sense. I could see SK / Town perhaps but Choose Your Side makes me strongly believe he would choose Town over Scum.

I think what Sens is claiming doesn’t make sense. If he’s lying about what SSBF supposedly sent in then any of what he’s saying is likely to be taken with a grain of salt. Thus the pressure vote. Duh.

Thinking more on SSBF and his post game comments about his play as a SKer I think it is unlikely that he would pick SK as a choice at all, but his comment about improving his play can only be read as genuine since it was post game is the only thing giving me pause on the subject. I could probably be convinced to lynch SensFan but I think he will be a better lynch post Reck flip because I'm really starting to believe that Reckoner is doing some roundabout passive aggressive bus on his buddy, but that is pretty circumstantial at this point.

Did you fail basic math?
4 town colors. 4 in each. That's 16.
If there's 8 scum, divided evenly, then that's 6 in each.
Add in the orange dude, and one color is going to have 7 and not 6, and it'll be OBVIOUS which one the Orange dude is in. THINK ABOUT IT.

Your original argument wasn't about finding the SK. It was about finding scum.

@Vi: Skimming right now, but it was kdub, xvart and tans who jumped on spyspy.
Aka, two of our beloved scum.

What are your thoughts on xvart?

lol? You haven't said anything about me all game except your misrep of substantial proportions. Has articulating a case on SpyreX become a site wide scumtell? Obviously not since only two of the three people you listed are beloved scum, so what exactly makes me scum in your eyes and why have you not said anything about it up until now?

As an aside, and to be fair the following comment should be taken with a grain of salt, but I am starting to ponder the idea that the people in this game that love to be in alliances (capslock or otherwise) get some sort of thrill of being in cahoots with others, so I wouldn't hold it against them to want to be officially in cahoots with others and therefore select to be scum. Something to think about.

[xvart]

Actually there broseph everything you've spewed my way is centered around the simple facts that a.) I said I picked Orange as my second and b.) That for 'mysterious' reasons I've opted to do that AND lie about it.

No, and my apologies for continuing to spew words of bullshit or whatever you said earlier, but my basis for my suspicion of you was because with your experience with draft variants and alignment selection games you would know that picking Orange as your second choice was a wasted pick. Then I voted for that reason in addition to the fact that you claimed getting your first pick would give you information about whether or not Orange got picked at all, which you would also know is false (regardless of how you thought the draft process was going to function). Even though the mods did not say "If you get your first pick we will tell you if your second pick got picked by someone else" I think it is unlikely under any circumstances that that would ever be the case. If you didn't get either of your picks then you could say that you know the SK got selected, but you didn't say that. This should have also been abundantly clear when I explained why I was interested in you and not SensFan/SSBF.

Also, interesting choice of words in that last line - that I picked Orange.

Like, you know I did.

What is this even implying? That I know what you actually selected? How?

@Vi: I agree, xvart has been consistant.

Unbelievable. Are my posts invisible? Is that a scum tell for me or something? I asked why you thought I was scum and why you hadn't said anything until recently about it.

Okay, here is what I'm going to do since I seem to be talking to a brick wall. I'm going to post my questions that continue to be ignored at the end of every post until they get answered. I don't see any town motivation for not answering these questions and they are not loaded or anything like that.

Questions Patiently Awaiting Answers:

1. SpyreX
   - is vote hopping scummy? (423)
   
2. SpyreX
   - is it scummy to speculate on scumteams? (419, 423)
   
3. xRECKONERx
   - explain you conflicting dramonic read: him being unlikely scum (the whole biggggg if comment) versus him being on the scum team you detailed out. (433, 475)
   
4. Katsuki
   - what exactly makes me scum in your eyes and why have you not said anything about it up until now? (475, 493)

[xvart]

And pray tell where have I called you scum, xvart? Funny you should think so though.

My apologies if I misread two of your posts, but I assumed that, based on the context of the first post below and my advocacy of the SpyreX wagon, you were saying that I was one of the people that was operating under the guise of looking town by "OMG YOU CLAIMED ORANGE" (SpyreX seemed to be under the same incorrect observation that that was why I was pushing his wagon). Then, and this I can see my error with this post in and of itself only, the second quote below I read it as I was one of the two "beloved scum" since I have been the biggest proponent of SpyreX's wagon (plus the question asking Vi's opinion about me at the end). I guess I should have seen that you also made the statement about the votes piling on when Vi called Reck the SKer since I never said anything about that being part of my justification for voting him. I withdraw the question.

@Vi: By spyspy wagon I meant the one in the early pages where people piled onto him for his choice of orange despite the explanations. It's just so easy imo for scum to go like "OMG YOU CLAIMED ORANGE SCUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM /VOTE" with the guise of looking town.
Which is also somewhat my reasoning for the reck votes that accumulated shortly after your analysis calling reck SK.

@Vi: Skimming right now, but it was kdub, xvart and tans who jumped on spyspy.
Aka, two of our beloved scum.

What are your thoughts on xvart?

Questions Patiently Awaiting Answers:

1. SpyreX
   - is vote hopping scummy? (423)
   
2. SpyreX
   - is it scummy to speculate on scumteams? (419, 423)
   
3. xRECKONERx
   - explain you conflicting dramonic read: him being unlikely scum (the whole biggggg if comment) versus him being on the scum team you detailed out. (433, 475)

[xvart]

I'm going to defer reading the Katsuki/tans round robin until later.

nopoint - a better vote is on Reckoner.

First off, the bolded is again saying your statement before of Orange had nothing to do with it is garbage.

In conjunction with everything else I have been harping on, which are the most significant parts...

And, while I could go into the short thought process behind the secondary reason in picking Orange second (the part you've got such a quibble about) I'm not going to. Because, it's moot. You either thing I'm lying scum (which you do) or just telling my picks (which I did).

Way to minimize the argument so you don't have to defend your actions.

Jesus. Mayhaps because this is garbage being thrown out by scum and AS SCUM you've got a pretty solid framework for knowing I'm town (Ohh noooo two scum groups fffff)

lol? In the same sentence you say I know you are town because I am scum but undermine that by saying I couldn't know you are town even if I was scum because there are... wait for it... two scum teams. So unless you think that my alleged scum team has the names of everyone on the other scum team the other option is that you accidentally defended yourself with a faulty argument which you now realize so you answered your own question with the obvious answer before I could or you are intentionally being difficult. Or both.

And, just to stop the whole 'avoiding my questions' junk:

# SpyreX - is vote hopping scummy? (423)
# SpyreX - is it scummy to speculate on scumteams? (419, 423)

The answer to both of these is contextual and they are bad questions but what the hell.

1.) Vote hopping, or vote sticking, isn't inherently scummy. When these votes hop in early game from candidates showing higher than average level of suspicion you're damn right they do.
2.) Speculation isn't inherently scummy. When the speculation is (junk) + (junk) for shiny prizes AND just happens to facilitate #1 above then yes, yes it is.

For the first one, my "vote hopping" was between two people I had articulated cases on (whether or not you agree with the validity of the cases is irrelevant) and they obviously weren't hopping for opportunistic reasons of just securing a lynch since neither of them were exploding wagons and looking to secure a lynch.

For the second one, is Reckoner's speculation about scum teams more legitimate than my "speculation" on scum teams? Is his scum team speculation less junk + junk for shiny prizes? If you recall, I only even mentioned it because you two are my top scum reads and there are two teams, thus I was looking to see if you two are tied together as possibly being on the same team or not. I wasn't doing it to further a scum read on anyone and I didn't use it to condemn either of you as icing on the cake, so your whole comment about "woohoo here comes the scum team speculation" as a subtle way to undermine me doesn't really jive. Furthermore, if there was information that did tie you two together I wanted to lynch you in the correct order to further my case on the other. And like I said, there wasn't anything concrete except the one Reck comment but that is highly circumstantial and only weakly tied you together.

[xvart]

You are missing the whole point. You said scumSensFan implies scumDram, which implies scumnopoint, and you want to start at nopoint and work your way backwards? On what planet is does this line of thinking imply the best lynch order starts with the person that is contingent on two other unflipped people being scum? Is SensFan your buddy and this is a terrible passive aggressive bus?

It took me a little while to work everything out in my head. Plus, I'm always REALLY REALLY hesitant to vote dramonic since I wuv him and all, so I try to find the best way to NOT do that… but now I've realized it doesn't really matter since all three of them are scum.

Unless you have three cop results indicated that all three people are scum your original assertion still says you should lynch them in the complete opposite order since, despite how golden your reads are, you should be lynching people that are the primary and give substantiating reads for the other players FIRST. Not second or last. Additionally, your whole scum team, as I have said repeatedly, has hinged on SensFan irregardless of how likely they are guaranteed to be scum now in your eyes, yet you have never voted SensFan up until recently.

Hello? I'm not asking questions to entertain myself here. Explain this post:

See above.

Okay then, what contributed to the turnaround on dram? Just the bus you think you identified? I understand you have been working on this scum team for a while or whatever, but what about his vote makes it a certain vote? Pure meta? He hasn't ever come back from lurking and voted as town? Or as scum voted someone after lurking that wasn't his scum buddy?

[xvart]

Dram can't resist making a catchup post and NOT attacking his buddies. He's like me when he's scum - he knows who the bad guys are, so it's easier to appear townie if you're hunting the bad guys, therefore he buses. It's his MO when he's scum. He's done it in countless games with me.

But how do you differentiate when he is scum/town from catch up posts? Does he never post votes in catch up posts as town?

More importantly, for some reason everyone seems to be assuming that there's all these magical traps against MCing, or that it won't work for whatever reason. What if the Mods actually said to themselves "So since we're telling them there's 4 of each colour, so we better make the Scum better than normal to compensate for the fact that the Town are obviously going to mass colourclaim, and so get an edge over a standard 1-4-4-16 game."

Fluff post since the argument is about the numbers of scum in a hypothetical mass claim and not the roles each scum may have. Who do you think is scum?

[xvart]

Sorry, I got a little behind due to my interest in reading the game plummeting after the whole capslock/anticapslock modkill/no modkill storm. I'll catch up tomorrow.

[xvart]

In particular, I would like to hear from xvart and KageLord since they were on Reck yesterday.

I explained my read on Reckoner ad nauseum yesterday, and I stand by it. Anything particular you are looking for here?

It seems the scumz are coming out of the woodwork. I find it unlikely that Reck was both RBed and NKed in the same night, so that leaves Katsuki as scum. Pending anything more concrete from Andy and/or SpyreX on the other scumz this is the lynch today.

VOTE: Katsuki

[xvart]

xvart, you stand by your read even though he was town?

I stand by my read yesterday, and my justification for wanting him lynched yesterday. Post flip, obviously I was wrong, but it is very scummy to me when people say Player X is scum based on Player Y flipping scum, who is scum based on Player Z flipping scum, and then votes Player X, which was exactly what Reck was doing. You always want to lynch the person in a probable pairing who will give more information about the other first, not last.

Kdub - nothing happened to me that I am aware of.

[xvart]

Well I can't defend myself against SECRET POWERS or anything so...

I don't know what sort of results Kdub has on me but whatever it is is wrong. If his evidence is damning the only thing I can think of is that Vi bus drove me with someone else. I don't know what he was expecting to happen to me N1 or how that incriminates me but nothing happened.

Vi had expressed a town read on me a couple times D1 so that is the only explanation that I I can think of, with her bus driving a town read for protection. I don't know.

And, is a bus driver being able to bus drive themselves common? That doesn't seem likely to me, but I've only played in one game with a bus driver, and I know that game the bus driver wasn't allowed to switch himself with someone else.

[xvart]

That is the wrongest answer.

Well it's the only thing I can deduce with the severely limited information, other than Kdub being a red lantern but that goes against my read on him.

I am Sister Sercy, of the blue lanterns. I was the fourth person inducted to the blue lanterns. I am basically a VT (as I have no active abilities) with the exception of my passive immunity to all red lantern actions.

I did not target Andy last night.

I'm also having trouble believing that there are so many investigation roles (kdub, SpyreX (?), and Starbuck) but I haven't quite worked through it all.

Andy - I don't need any details so a simple yes/no: based on what you know and what you said here is it possible to confirm me? You said something about how you were confirmed to one of the other blue lanterns due to last nights actions.

[xvart]

Might as well ask:

Mod: Can a bus driver target him/herself to be bus driven?

[xvart]

xvart, can you paraphrase the flavor in your role PM?

Evil Star is screwing with my people. I was the fourth person to join the Blue Laterns. I wish to bring hope back to my planet. Red powers have no effect on me. There is something else that I won't share as it is only a benefit to the scum to know; but, I can't tell if it is something universal to my blue lantern brothers or unique to me.

The first part Andrius has already claimed. I’d like to know about the second part. I don’t recall anyone suggesting that Vi was Yellow scum but the Yellow kill. Can you point out where people suggested he was scum?

Where/how was it determined that Vi was the yellow kill?

So you are stating that Katsuki fabricated his watch on Andy (that saw Vi visit him)?

I had actually forgotten about Katsuki's claimed result. With that in mind, and if I was bus driven with Andy, Kdub's result (whatever it is) would have been on Andy, but that doesn't make any sense either because it seems, with what he has claimed, Andy is a Blue Latern, too. I would assume that Katsuki was telling the truth with his result as trying to get out of being lynched and wouldn't want to be counter claimed so again, I don't know. It is hard for me to speculate since I don't know the nature of Kdub's false positive.

You also make a strong case against nopoint and his responses. With the night actions shenanigans I'm willing to go with general scummy behavior.

VOTE: nopointinactingup

[xvart]

Hey Andrius.. When did SpyreX get confirmed as town?

This is a good question. SpyreX has claimed nothing other than mysterious night action decoding, which could simply be him latching on to Kdub's false positive from yesterday. I can't imagine that him, Kdub, and Starbuck all having roles that can determine alignment, especially considering Starbuck was in a mason group. That seems highly over powered with Reck and Starbuck sharing a mason group where they could share results in the event Starbuck died.

Last question xvart: what is your full role name (name+role)?

Sister Sercy, a Red Immune Operative.

@ xvart: So you're Bulletproof to Red Lanterns, right?

Well yes, and all red actions. I assume, for example, that if there is a red tracker and he/she tracks me it will return "failed" or "no result". My ring negates red powers.

I don't want to out any of your information so don't answer if you think it is going to be detrimental, but can you lose your powers other than losing your ring?

The claim seems kind of dumb to me regardless. How can a person claim VT and then turn around and say they are Untargetable against Red?

Really? That's a terrible observation since allusion to VT and my abilities were in the same sentence. I said I was a VT in terms of active abilities and then stated my passive abilities. I was basically saying "I am basically a VT so if your evidence suggests otherwise you need to reconsider". Seriously, I'm being as patient as possible with these claims and not demanding more information and trying not to out abilities but this is just a poor comment.

On D3 MoI completely ignored the guilty on xvart, only asking him to clarify whether he got watched by Katsuki or not.
He was going after NoPoint instead.

What guilty? The only thing Kdub said yesterday was "xvart is scum" after I said nothing interesting happened to me the previous night. That equates to a guilty in your opinion how? What do you suppose is the result that Kdub has on me when a cop has flipped? What do you think SpyreX has on me?

And, if my lynch is going to go down regardless, I would appreciate the chance to reveal the thing I am withholding as it will be beneficial for future town use and consideration for setup speculation.

[xvart]

Okay then. I asked the moderators if it was okay by ruleset and win conditions to do what I am about to do and they said it was, as my goals are still playing to my (long term) win condition, and since my lynch is inevitable now I can go ahead an say this.

As some of you have deduced, I am, in fact, on the Yellow scum team. I am the dramonic counterpart to the red team (a goon). The reason I am telling you this is because I know that SensFan is on the red team because he claimed that SSBF picked yellow as the number one pick. There were/are two people on my team (myself included) that did not pick yellow as a color at all, so the fact that he picked yellow as his first pick and he didn't get it does not compute with the fact that I (and another) did not pick yellow at all.

Obviously, the point here (and why it is to my win condition) is it outs the third red member and will cripple them while my team will only be down two members, so we will have the advantage. The other advantage, and what I am now lobbying for, is lynching SensFan over me because he is also a scum PR that you (and my team) does not want in the night.

Not only is it in my team's best interest but it is also in the town's best interest to lynch SensFan today because nobody (except the red team) wants another scum PR floating around during the night. We lynch SensFan tonight and I'll get vigged, and if not, am obv lynch tomorrow.

Obviously, I recognize that this will be taken with a grain of salt as I am scum; but before you lynch me just think about it. Also, if my team gets any information tonight that incriminates the red team I will be able to disclose that tomorrow (unless it can be linked back to one of my teammates.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: SensFan

[xvart]

lol I should read the preview edit before I post.

Do we really need to wait for Kit to post, or does anyone mind if I hammer now?

Unless you want SensFan and whatever his sweet Red PR that counter balances a three investigation roles floating around tonight you should not hammer.

[xvart]

If you lynch me I hope SensFan rocks your world with whatever his abilities allows him to do. Remember, the enemy of your enemy is your friend. I learned the truth of that in Succession mafia.

[xvart]

It seems like winter is on it's way out, we had an almost warm day here, very nice and comfortable.

We're supposed to reach the 70s on Thursday here.

I've got some real thoughts I'll post in a while.

[xvart]

- Yellow did much better than red, but were screwed by the color claims. We should have given them better ones. Really, the only solution to this is to have changed the setup so that some colors had more than others. Announcing 2PR/2VT at the beginning REALLY screwed them over, even if it didn't end up being true. 4 people per faction DID screw them over. That is just a lesson you will have to learn about theme games. Tell the players as little as possible until as late as possible. Setting any kind of preconception in their mind (early on in the game, in sign-up phase, or otherwise) will entirely dictate the way they play the game. Which is why yellow was screwed by their fake claims. Learn a lesson from it, move on. Next game will be better.

This is what I was going to say earlier but I felt like I really got boned by the 4 color setup comments, whether or not they were true or not. My fake claim was green and with three greens already flipped all it would have taken was the last green to counter claim the last green. Especially since the 2PR/2VT was still floating around somewhat.

Mods:

regarding kdub and his role, if he had targeted a VT would anything have happened?

I had a lot of fun playing this game but I felt that my lynch was a lot of circumstantial nonsense. The whole thing about my claiming a VT like role I felt was fine, and if I had more time I think I would have pushed the whole red immune operative, since operatives were VTs.

For future play, what should I have done with kdubs soft claim on me? Should I have demanded more information since the burden of proof was on him? I didn't want to out a PR as I thought that was the town thing to do but it really left me no wiggle room.

And, for reference, I did go to dana and RC and ask if they could give me another fake claim and it was suggested that I could use one of my other buddies claims but at that point I didn't feel right about doing so since it hadn't been discussed in our scum QT.

[xvart]

I'd say demanding more information is a requirement in your situation. From a Town perspective you can't sit on your hands and say "Well, I don't want to out a Power Role so I'm not going to challenge the incorrect claim of me being scum". And as scum if you are going down with the ship you owe it to your team to get as much information as possible out of the player for your Teammates.

Thanks. I thought about that but all I could see as the response is "LOLZ FLAIL MOAR SCUM".

Also, I'm curious to hear what people thought about me claiming scum at that point in the game. My ninja ability was not just for me but any killing action my team did. I never submitted a single action so when I claimed but my main focus was that I was really trying to get another un-traceable, un-protect-able kill for my team. I wished I could have gotten back in time before I was put to L-1 to have a little more wiggle room.

[xvart]

kdub - why did you pick me that night? were you using your role as an investigation because you thought I might be scum or because you thought I was town?

[xvart]

I wish I was taller.