TT; Book 1: Bible Verse Mafia - Game over!

[Fuldu]

/confirm

[Fuldu]

Iammars, would you mind explaining what a "Random No Vote" is? I can think of two separate explanations, with two totally different consequences, but I'd rather know what you meant than guess at it.

[Fuldu]

Although there are a number of interesting things in the discussion mith has created, the following was the post that stood out for me the most in my post-holiday reread.

Unvote

for now. I'm not sure who is worse: Roadbird or Vis.

Too much of what Vismaior is being accused of seems just like bad play, to me, whereas armlx's comment seems like an attempt to prep to jump to either bandwagon as it forms. The fact that he hasn't actually done so with the existing Vismaior bandwagon is a point in his favor, but the framing of the above seems scummy to me nonetheless.

vote: armlx

[Fuldu]

FOS EnderX

For going through verses. There are too many verse to claim to let the option slip that those might be scum. You ruined a good trap.

A good trap for the impenetrably stupid, maybe. Do you think scum are just going to pick a book of the Bible and chapter and verse numbers at random if they're forced to claim? If I were making up a claim, I'd at least want to make sure that my verse didn't, say, contain the word "stone" in it. If EnderX were posting verses that might be a particular sort of pro-town role, I'd agree with you - giving plausible fake roleclaims to scum is a bad idea - but this particular piece of logic is just moronic. It's like suggesting that anyone who claims Godfather is probably scum, and so anyone who then points out that there might be a Godfather in the game is scummy because they ruined the clever trap in which we wait to see whether anyone claims Godfather.

[Fuldu]

It wouldn't be too hard for a scum to slip up Fuldu. I actually might have if I was scum .

Well, that's unfortunate. I stand by my view that to do so would require one to be impenetrably stupid.

[Fuldu]

VisMaior seems suspicious enough to me. A 'hider' wouldn't be such a bad lynch now, would it?

In general, I think a hider would be a fairly bad lynch. In the long run, it becomes a combination of a reasonably unnightkillable role with limited investigative power (since a hider who hides with scum is usually killed). Assuming I was equally suspicious of the two players, I'd probably be slightly more inclined to lynch someone who claimed roleblocker over someone who claimed hider on Day One. As the game progresses, this would probably shift, since it's easier to prove roles like RB than hider.

But in a game where a) VisMaior isn't sure whether he's a hider or a doc or possibly some other protective variant, and b) I suspect there are probably other players who aren't totally sure what role they are, I don't know that that logic applies. Certainly any possibility that VisMaior is a doctor makes me even less inclined to lynch him. But with the degree of uncertainty that exists in night actions in this game, a possible hider is going to be less useful, since any conclusions that are drawn are going to be conditional. In other words, VisMaior doesn't

know

an innocent (whoever he targeted last night) the way he would if his role read:

"Hider - Every night you may hide with the player of your choice. If you select a pro-town player, you will be protected from harm by hiding in their house. If

they

are targeted for a kill, you will be killed, as well. If you target an anti-town player, you will be killed."

...which is my generic notion of the hider role PM. And the problem is that a) we don't know for sure whether either or both of the conditionals apply in this instance and b) we don't know for sure that he's a hider. If either the second conditional (target scum=dead) doesn't apply or VisMaior's actually a doc, then the person he targeted last night need not be innocent.

So, I guess the conclusion I'm drawing after all that is that VisMaior is a bad lynch (because hider isn't a great lynch, and doctor would be even worse), but that if he is a hider, he probably isn't as useful in this game as he would be in others.

[Fuldu]

i don't think we have 2 hiders in the game....

the silent speaker was given the reference Job 14:13 upon his death, which i would attribute more to a hider than Psalm 32:7, the reference VisMaior is claiming...

Job 14:13 - "you would hide me...and conceal me"
Psalm 32:7 - "you will protect me"

maybe the key is in the verb?!?... just a thought...

Those are some impressive examples of selective quoting. And of The Bible, no less. For shame. The full passages are:

Job 14:13 - If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!

Psalm 32:7 - You are my hiding place; you will protect me from trouble and surround me with songs of deliverance. Selah

The first one might be a hider, but the notion of hiding in the grave hardly seems like a safe rationale for drawing that conclusion. In originally reading this I had interpreted tss's role as a likely candidate for vanilla townie, since that passage reads to me like a description of cannon fodder. Also, I dismissed hider as a likely role because he was the only death last night. It's not unheard of for scum to miss their kill(s) Night One and for the only death to be a hider who mishid, but it's got to be pretty unusual.

The second one has the disadvantage of just being what VisMaior has told us his verse is (as opposed to a verse mod-confirmed by death), but it seems much more emphatically a hider/doctor role than tss's verse.

Between casting doubts on Vismaior's innocence with poorly justified and misleading arguments and doing it with a "Just something to think about, but I'm not going to vote" attitude, I'll move my vote.

unvote: armlx; vote: LyingBrian

[Fuldu]

you misinterpreted my post (somehow that's ironical)... i meant that i thought the silent speaker was a hider & VisMaior was a doctor... that wouldn't be unusual in a game this size, would it? the reason i partial quoted the verses was a) b/c i figured anybody could look up the full verse, b) i was trying to emphasize the verbs...

Which is the backtrack I had expected to hear, but it's still not consistent with the fact that tss died. Nor is it consistent with the fact that you didn't use the word "doctor" anywhere in the post, which was why I went ahead with my accusation when that possibility occurred to me. Your post looked then, and still looks, like what I said it did. The fact that it was framed in a way that allows for an alternative explanation doesn't make it any less scummy seeming.

[Fuldu]

I didn't like LyingBrian yesterday and I see no reason to change that view.

vote: LyingBrian

[Fuldu]

Is there any kind of kamikaze scum role anywhere in the normal list of roles?

It depends what you mean by 'kamikaze.' Roles with the goal of dying, perhaps to take down some other role, have been used before, but they tend not to be scum, per se, just neutral characters with totally different goals. I believe I've seen a scum role in which the final person to vote for his lynch ended up getting killed, as well. So that might constitute a kamikaze scum role. And, of course, none of these are on the "normal list of roles," but this isn't classified as a normal game, so they needn't be.

[Fuldu]

vote: Dragon Phoenix

who tries to discredit me, even though we both voted for Flying Dutchman.

I believe he's trying to discredit you for pretending to have a guilty investigation, not simply because you voted to lynch someone who wasn't scum. And while the sharp tone of it is uncharacteristic of DP, I totally agree with the sentiment.

[Fuldu]

I haven't seen the "nice play" bit discussed as a tell, exactly, but my read on it is that it follows from the general premise that scum have a larger incentive to suck up to other players than town do.

[Fuldu]

that's EXACTLY my point, VitaminR! if he's NOT a vanilla townie, then he must have a role... we can reasonably assume that armlx was pro-town... 3 of the 4 people who have died so far have BLACK text following their names... and everybody knows that pro-town roles make up the biggest percentage of players... i think we can also reasonably assume that armlx's verse is the vanilla townie verse... which brings me back to my question...

what is RoadBird's role based on the verse he claimed? a "thanker"?

What evidence do you have that there's a single vanilla townie verse? If I were running this game, I'd have given different verses to each of the vanilla townies. Roadbird has outright claimed "townie" and the fact that he's claimed a different verse from armlx isn't any reason, so far as I can tell, to disbelieve him. Oh, and look, my vote is already on you.