Cold War Mafia - GAME OVER!!

[gonnano]

I agree with the points that XScorpion has brought up against PoisonIvy. There really is no reason to be talking about night actions at this point, and saying that you don't like to read the rules and aren't interested in the setup is like saying that you aren't interested in figuring out who the scum are.
VOTE: PoisonIvy

I'll abstain from answering furcolow's questions -- I generally see RQS as a waste of time, and it looks like this is a game where I can avoid participating in it.

[gonnano]

UNVOTE:

I'm having second thoughts about the PI wagon -- it's taken off a little too quickly for my tastes. I still think PI seems scummy, but in the past my scum reads have been pretty terrible, so I'm going to play this one by the numbers.

Furcolow is steadily becoming more and more scummy to me: the "meta" appraisal of PI, the whole RQS deal... and this.

I am going to put my vote on the first alphabetically to have not posted.

What?! It's WAY too early in the game to say who's a lurker and who just had a busy couple of days IRL. You're just trying to substitute a policy vote for actual scumhunting.

[gonnano]

It looks like I need to explain my unvote a little bit better:

Judging by the posts that PoisonIvy has made, I find her to be scummy. Period. However, I have frequently been wrong when I thought that about a player -- and I've seen super fast wagons lynch townies instead of scum much more frequently. Basically what I'm trying to do in this case is to not let my pet reads blind me to the fact that the PI wagon is behaving in a way that I have mostly seen with scum wagons.

To clarify a minor point, I didn't unvote because the wagon got big, but because the wagon got big so quickly that PoisonIvy didn't really have a chance to respond, making me think that at least some of the people on that wagon aren't quite as worried about the actual issues as just pushing through a lynch.

Regarding the whole deal about furcolow thinking scum had daytalk, I can't see that it's a tell either way. Both town and scum had the information available that scumchat stopped 24 hours in, so not understanding that point is a simple mistake that would be just as easy to make as town or scum.

But I can tell you that this is definitely not pro-town behavior:

vote: poisonivy for the reason of survival.

[gonnano]

It is if you are town.

Actually, I believe the pro-town move in this situation would be for Furcolow to try to find scum, not to just push any wagon that isn't his. Especially since we've still got weeks until the deadline.

@bvoigt: You have a point that scum would most likely know about the daytalk, but then again scum would also be less likely to bring the subject up. I still think it's all a wash in terms of being a tell.

I don't particularly object to a ThAdmiral wagon right now, but I'd like to see what exactly people are finding so scummy about him before I buy in. What vague posts or hints at inside information has he made?

[gonnano]

Gonnano. Im interested when there is something to disect. When ones actions genuinely ARE scummy. I dont see how dismantling potential set ups when there have been no kills is particularily a good use of time. I will become more interested in the case maybe lter but as of right now meh......

I'm not really sure what this means... are you interested in wagoning me? the comments/accusations that I've made? or just interested in dissection in general?
Whose actions are genuinely scummy? Who has been dismantling set ups? What do you mean by dismantling?

I'd appreciate some elaboration, because I'm not quite getting this.

[gonnano]

@ Mod: I think I should be listed as not voting

@ PoisonIvy

see post 173.

Scum post: 1. unvotes (inexplicably); 2. smears Furcolow; and 3. doesn't vote Furcolow?! . If PI is still scummy, but Furculow is rising, why not vote him? I don't like the unvote for obvious reasons, as PI isn't really in danger of being lynched soonish, so why the bail? Possible PI scum buddy here.

If you read the section immediately following my unvote, and the later post where I explain it some more, maybe it will seem less inexplicable to you. The reason that I initially voted for PI but haven't voted Furcolow is that most of the things I've seen from him are anti-town, whereas PI's posts seem scummy. Anti-town is bad, but it takes a whole lot of anti-townness to deserve a vote.

gonnano - what do you think of Artem?

Nothing's really jumped out at me so far... He's asked some good questions IMO, but that's about it.

im perfectly fine with a davidparker lynch
ive been saying that all game

Another gem from Furcolow. This is getting old pretty quickly. Why don't you try to figure out who the scum are instead of trying to lynch anyone who isn't you?

I think this is the game that you're looking for, Artem

[gonnano]

@gonnano: why no vote?

I'm still loooking at scummy behavior in response to the wagons that we have going. I'll vote as soon as I make a decision about who seems the most deserving of a vote. Or maybe I'll vote Furcolow if I see enough anti-town behavior. Either way, a vote is coming up soon.

I don't mind people being suspicious of me, but I'd like to see some actual points that I can respond to. Soo... If you've been calling for a gonnano wagon/investigation, some reasons would be cool.

Everyone who's calling the "4 possible cases" thing from Artem scummy is full of crap. An ordered, structured argument is NOT scummy. I could see it if listing the possible cases was the whole purpose of the post, but in this case they were listed specifically so that he could examine the behavior he observed in the light of each scenario. And then use it explain his earlier statement -- another thing which is not scummy. Scumpoints to rat and smargaret for pulling at straws.

[gonnano]

Not liking gonnano's response too well. It seems like scum waiting for a wagon, just like GW.

You mean a wagon like the PI wagon? or the Furcolow wagon? or the rat wagon that's starting now? If I were just waiting for a wagon, don't you think I would have found one by now?

Backpedaling already? In the quote above you make it quite obvious that there is a clear distinction between PoisonIvy being "scummy", but Furcolow only being "anti-town". But before, you said nothing of the sort. HUGE difference. In fact, before you said clearly that Furcolow was becoming increasingly scummy. Nowhere in your observations of Furcolow did you say "anti-town" and your explanation that you cited only came after you were called out for it. If the PoisonIvy lynch falls through you will eat rope. If PoisonIvy does go through; you eat rope tomorrow.

"becoming increasingly scummy" is not the same as "Furcolow is scum". I am of the opinion that if someone does enough anti-town stuff, it contributes somewhat to the possibility of them being scum. Furcolow may tend to be anti-town regardless of alignment, but I think it's reasonable to say that as scum a player would exploit their meta to get by with as much anti-town behavior as possible. Hence me counting Furcolow's staggering amount of anti-town statements against him as points toward scumminess.
To recap: becoming and being are two different things.

Thought I'd post this again... It seems to have been missed earlier.

I don't mind people being suspicious of me, but I'd like to see some actual points that I can respond to. Soo... If you've been calling for a gonnano wagon/investigation, some reasons would be cool.

As was this...

@ PoisonIvy see post 173.

which pointed to this:

Gonnano. Im interested when there is something to disect. When ones actions genuinely ARE scummy. I dont see how dismantling potential set ups when there have been no kills is particularily a good use of time. I will become more interested in the case maybe lter but as of right now meh......

I'm not really sure what this means... are you interested in wagoning me? the comments/accusations that I've made? or just interested in dissection in general?
Whose actions are genuinely scummy? Who has been dismantling set ups? What do you mean by dismantling?

I'd appreciate some elaboration, because I'm not quite getting this.

----------------------------------
For those of you who have been anxious about me not voting, you'll be happy to know that I have found an excellent candidate.
VOTE: Lowell

Here's a comprehensive representation of every single thing he has done in this game so far:
1. votes GW for "meta-talk, setup-talk, take your pick". Goes into no more detail. Disappears until...
2. he comes back to find that his explanationless wagon hasn't magically taken off without any effort or a real case from him, so he parks a vote on me because I unvoted PI. He gives some weaksauce misrepresentation of my actions to support this vote. Disappears until...
3. he comes back to find that his wagon hasn't magically taken off without any effort or a real case from him, so he parks a vote on GW.
4. finally gets around to explaining that very first vote, by way of accusing GW of doing something that would be an improvement on what he himself is doing, which is nothing.

It doesn't get much scummier than that.

[gonnano]

PI was your only vote before now. And you supported the Furcolow wagon:

My understanding was that InflatablePie was accusing me of waiting around for a wagon to put my vote on. The point I was trying to make is that if I were scum trying to hop onto an unobtrusive wagon, I have had plenty of opportunities. For example, I could have stayed on the PoisonIvy wagon to try and see it through a mislynch. Instead, I got off because I have a feeling that a wagon that moves that fast is scummy. I said that Furcolow was becoming scummy, but a lot of other players felt the same way for the same reasons. The fact is that I didn't put down my vote just so I could ride along with a wagon.

And now that I've mentioned it, this is an extremely scummy quote. You wouldn't mind a wagon on him, even though you don't know why he's scummy? This looks exactly like scum waiting for a reason to get someone lynched.

I like it when wagons are formed on players who haven't really been pressured yet. So I didn't have any objection to the Thad wagon. While I was in favor of the pressure, though, I wasn't very clear on the reasoning behind the wagon -- if there was any. Again, I didn't put down a vote -- this time because not having a clear cause is an attribute that I'm not fond of in wagons.

Also your points are nonsense.

Ah. An effective rebuttal.

While there isnt that much scumhunting from GW, just about all of his points are deadon for what town should be thinking flavor and playwise this game.

Something about this seems a little off to me. Does Llama know something about the setup that I don't? Is he defending GW indirectly? Nothing majorly scummy, but I thought I'd point this out all the same.

[gonnano]

Maybe you didn't actually place a vote, but you still supported a wagon, which is just as bad.

So when exactly is it okay for me to share my reads? If me saying that Furcolow is acting in a way that is detrimental to the town is now a scumtell, what contribution

am

I allowed to make to the discussion?

So why didn't you try to form your own opinion about TheAd, instead of halfheartedly supporting his wagon and waiting for someone else to provide you with a reason to join it?

I already had my own impression of thad. It went something like "meh". I think you can understand why I wasn't compelled to share this less-than-awe-inspiring read, and why I was interested to find out what others had seen in his posting that I had missed.

[gonnano]

I like red coyote's post -- It's made me look twice at GW, who I didn't originally think of as scummy. Good approach to analysis throughout the post, as well.

After seeing the reasons that he gives for the Thad wagon I'm not sure that it was ever really a good place to put a vote.
Also, I'm not sold on the suspicion of David or jmj. David's made some genuine contribution to the discussion IMO, and jmj really hasn't done anything that scummy.

That's about it for now... I still like my Lowell vote, considering he hasn't really done anything since I voted him. I feel like a Lowell flip will give us a little insight about GW, plus I think Lowell is more likely overall to be scum.

[gonnano]

I forgot something.

I don't think it'd be pointless, I think it'd be blatantly pro-scum.

QFT

[gonnano]

Good wagons: jmj, rat, gonno with a remainder of Thad

gonno really hasnt given off any strong town tells, just quite a few scum tells.

This game can use a rat death, jmj death, gonnano death...

This is everything I could find that you've said about me, Llama. Is there any particular

reason

that you think I should die? Like you know I'm town and killing me will help you win, or something?

[gonnano]

I feel like your Lowell vote is already kind of lame to begin with (I can think of at least 5 better candidates as I did in my previous post). This sentence in particular makes me feel weird about you. I don't like that you're justifing, even partially, your vote on the basis of how much information it gives you about Ghost. That comment just feels kind of forced in there, like you don't really mean it.

I think several people have the same opinion of my vote on Lowell, which is a shame because IMO he's the player who's put the most effort into not being noticed. I think that what I said about information about GW was true, but it was mostly just an attempt to get people who are thinking of everything in terms of GW to take a serious look at Lowell. Apparently, it didn't work.

Its that you really pushed on PI for being very scummy, vet didnt vote for her.

That's not true. I did vote for PI, but I unvoted later, which drew some flak from some other players. What I see here is you piggybacking on someone else's argument, but unfortunately all you could remember was that there was something about PI that people were accusing me of a few pages back. Since you're not worried about actually catching scum, you didn't bother to check the facts before posting.

You continually just taked about how you dont trust yourself to make right reads, but she is really scummy. All that occured while the wagon was getting built up all around her. When it quieted down, you moved on to other people, apparently all happy with your reads to the extent that you would vote.

I do trust my reads, but I'm not so ignorant that I trust them in spite of new evidence that discredits them. Again, maybe if you had actually read what I wrote you would understand the situation a little better.

Unless you have positively identified his VI play as specifically scum VI play, you are completely wrong. Saying "increasingly scummy" suggests his behavior has more scum motivation than before. But that's not what you said before. You are backpedaling.

Really? Are you really arguing that I don't know what connotation I associate with the term "becoming increasingly scummy"? When I originally said it, I thought it was obvious that I didn't yet consider Furcolow scum (hence no vote), but that he was heading that way quickly. I found that wasn't the case when I saw that some people had interpreted it differently, but I really can't see why this is still an issue after I explained it once.

You also say he is exploiting his anti-town meta; can you provide an example of where he does this?

I wasn't referring to a specific incident, I was referring to all the anti-town things that Furcolow has done -- some of which I've pointed out in previous posts. Basically, I was trying to say that even if his meta is to act anti-town, he'll still act more anti-town when he's scum than when he's town.

You like pressure wagons but you don't like to participate on them?

Not when the wagon is just as sketchy as the person being voted.

[gonnano]

It's good to finally see a real case on Thad. That's what I've been looking for since people started voting him. I have to say, there's quite a bit there even when I leave out the pieces that rely on me being scum -- and even those I could see having merit from the perspective of someone who doesn't know my role PM.

So far, I could see myself potentially voting PI, Jmj, or Thad (in order of preference) if the deadline was getting close.

Since it isn't, though, I want to try again to get everyone to take a look at Lowell. Every part of his play is about flying under the radar. He's done some minimal analysis of GW, but other than that his posts have seemed to be mostly placeholders to maintain a pretense of involvement. If you read what he's written, though, it's obvious that he isn't engaged in this game at all.

As an example of the play that I'm describing, just look at his response to my vote. He answers in such a way that no new information is brought to light, no new points are raised, and none of my original points are really even answered, yet somehow the discussion has been closed. He even pushes some accusation of OMGUS voting my way. All of this is very effective scum play, geared towards isolating himself from the discussion while still appearing to be an active player. By ignoring the majority of the arguments that are happening, he limits both the information that is presented to the town and the chance that he will be accused of something.

I don't know if this is all in my head or what, but I really can't see why no one else is finding this guy even mildly suspicious.

[gonnano]

his case is basically just a lurker case

That's not true. My vote isn't just based on the lack of involvement -- a big part of it is the way Lowell has geared all his statements toward keeping himself out of things. Lack of involvement is one thing, and scummy by itself, but there were plenty of places for town-Lowell to jump in and make some kind of contribution, which he went out of his way to avoid.

just looks like trying to distract us from what we're doing right now.

As far as I can see, what you're doing right now is trying to wagon people who are less scummy than Lowell. So yeah, I'm trying to distract you from that.

Bvoigt is right on there being a lot of support vocally for a gonnano lynch (See the above post), without people actually voting

what's up with that?

There certainly is a lot of vocal support for lynching me, and there has been for a while. Now, why on earth would all those people be reluctant to have their names included in a vote count analysis later on?

Gonnano can be scum distancing himself from town-Thad as well, y'know. Then if Thad flips town he can be all "oh I knew he was town".

I wish I could pull that off. Somehow, though, I think agreeing to vote for him and then claiming that I knew he was town all along would get me killed pretty quickly.

[gonnano]

I can see that no one's interested in a Lowell lynch just yet, so I'll leave a big fat FOS on him and move to a more practical wagon for now.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: JMJ

It was a toss up for me between voting JMJ and voting PI/Amrun, but the lack of content from JMJ ultimately swayed me. Plus, Amrun's posting has been nowhere near PI's level of scummy behavior.

I'm also very suspicious of smarg. Looking back over her posts, the amount of time she's spent following other people rubs me the wrong way. I've seen very little original content from her, and while agreeing with people isn't scummy, it seems like smarg is using it as a shield to make sure that there's always someone to blame besides her. I'd be willing to switch my vote to her if there's enough support to form a realistic wagon.

[gonnano]

The point about JMJ's lack of activity being due to a real issue is a good one, but I don't think it completely invalidates the lurker case on him. He still made several posts that promised content and didn't give any, and it seems like even in the presence of a problem in real life, a townie wouldn't be likely to stall like that.

In other news, I've become less fond of the Thad wagon. All of the points against him seem like someone's trying too hard to make the pieces fit together in a certain way.

[gonnano]

What would a townie in his situation, with no time, do differently?

I don't think a townie would have waited quite so long to replace, knowing that he was hurting the town the whole time he was being inactive -- whereas a scum would actually come out ahead if he managed to pull through without being lynched. Instead of promising content and not delivering, he could have posted some limited content. He obviously had been reading people's criticism of him... if he had been reading those parts of the thread anyway, why couldn't he make a few brief comments about the stuff that wasn't directed at him? He also claimed to have taken notes, and even if he were swamped IRL I don't think it would have taken that long to post them.

I think it's very likely that he was telling the truth about having difficulties in the real world, but I also think it's very likely he was exaggerating the magnitude of those difficulties.

[gonnano]

How so?
Even if you are short of time, the fact that you're still playing the game means you want to help your team in whatever marginal way that you can. For town that would mean posting the content that he ostensibly had already written out -- even if it wasn't much. For scum it would mean lurking.

[gonnano]

@ bvoigt:

I don't think the fencesitting accusation has much weight against Amrun -- I'd say that it's perfectly fine for a new replacement not to have strong reads right away.

I can see where you're coming from about the vote on fuzzy, but I don't think it's a huge tell. IMO, scum would be more likely to join a wagon to avoid drawing attention to themselves.

The inconsistency that you brought up in Amrun's reason for voting is interesting, but it will take more than one example to convince me that it's scummy behavior on Amrun's part and not just a simple miscommunication. I've personally made similar inconsistent statements as town before (much too often, in fact), because I was in a hurry or didn't think I needed to be very specific.

I'm still willing to vote Amrun, though -- she hasn't done enough townie things to make up for PI's play.

[gonnano]

So do you think Amrum, PIs play removed, is town?

I'm not sure if separating the two has much significance... but in my mind Amrun's play by itself isn't anything really worth lynching her over. Does that answer your question? I guess the way to put it would be that I have basically a null read on Amrun and a scum read on PI, which equals a scum read on the slot.

Really? Lurker votes rarely come under a lot of pressure. Wagon votes, depending on the situation, can be questioned and seen as a major scumtell. In other words, they're more risky for scum.

You're right that one lurker vote isn't going to draw much pressure for the voter, but it does draw attention just by the fact that it's different from what other people are doing. Even attention without much pressure is bad news when you're trying to fly underneath the radar, because it means that any mistakes you make are more likely to be caught.
I think that in this case, scum could have joined a wagon and been reasonably sure of not getting any flak for it. So trying to start a new wagon, which is almost guaranteed to draw attention, doesn't make as much sense to me from a scum point of view. Then again, though, scum don't always do the things that I think make sense.

Form what his location says, and what my news channel said about events occurring around that time, he was in a city, with inches of ice on the ground, and snow above that. He needed to get around the city. Takes quite a while. I doubt the magnitude was exaggerated. That's why I took my vote off. It was doing nothing, since the pressure of the vote was ineffective.

Maybe I wasn't very clear about what I meant the first time. I didn't mean that I thought he was exaggerating about what was happening -- just about how much it was affecting the amount of time that he could spend on the game. I find it hard to believe that he had just enough time to post the things that he posted, but not ten seconds more to post content that he had supposedly already written.

[gonnano]

But you're sticking with the weak vote on mothrax?

I don't think it's a weak vote, really, considering the options. JMJ and PI were both lurky, and both made some questionable posts. For me it comes down to the fact that I still am uneasy about the behavior that PI's wagon had when it started, so I think jmj is the better lynch of the two.

Note that I'd still greatly prefer a Lowell lynch to either of these two, but unfortunately that doesn't appear to be within reach.

[gonnano]

Okay. Jmj is officially no longer the better lynch.

I believe that Amrun's role is Joseph McCarthy, and I believe that the role ability given is accurate as well (why claim it if you won't be able to prove it?). I also think that she's scum.

There's a very very very good chance that we are looking at a game that is NOT US v. Soviets
Reasons:
*the "threat to the peace" wincon for town
*the fact that the mod separated nationality and alignment when he described the setup
*the fact that the given "possible" (key term there) mafia wincon refers to nationality rather than alignment, which would be an indirect way of stating things if nationality = alignment

Now, I'm not a Cold War historian, but even I know that McCarthy is THE single most infamous bad guy on the american side of things.

The only way that I would even consider a claimed McCarthy role being town is if I knew beyond a doubt that all US characters are town. Which is not even close to being the case here.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Amrun

One vote to lynch. Someone lay down the hammer.

[gonnano]

I hope Amrun's just messing around. I really can't see at all from a flavor point of view (or any other POV) how McCarthy could be considered anything but a threat to the peace.

[gonnano]

smooth move, bvoigt.

[gonnano]

I've got some things to think about, so I'm returning my vote for now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mothrax

If indeed McCarthy is town, then I'm with Feysal about not trusting flavor.

[gonnano]

Seriously, though, if I were McCarthy and town I would make up a new name just because of the negative connotations that the name McCarthy carries. It's a lynch on sight kind of name.

The whole claim situation is weird to begin with, anyway. Why make such a dangerous claim when there are still other viable wagons?

I can see why it looks like I'm waffling with my vote. The truth is that PI and JMJ have been and still are very similar in terms of scumminess in my mind. I was just as willing to vote either of them based on their posting, but the initial behavior of PI's wagon got me leaning toward JMJ. Then Amrun came along and basically claimed Hitler, so my priorities shifted. Right now I'm leaving my vote where it was before this whole mess started until I figure out what to make of Amrun's reaction to what she (and I) thought was a hammer vote.

Hope that clears things up and/or gives people something to ignore just like all my other explanations.

also, nacho got me thinking...

It could be that some roles are threats to the peace for only certain groups. For example, JFK could be a threat to peace for communist characters because of his role in the Cuban Missile Crisis, but not to capitalist ones.
Then there would be more room for crazy things like McCarthy not being scum.

[gonnano]

@ Llama/ anyone else who has been calling for my death:

Could I see a general overview of the points against me, along with why a scum motivation for each is more likely than the reasoning that I have given for my actions? If there's something that I haven't explained I'd be happy to do so.

[gonnano]

Different time period, bro.

I realize that. It was a comparison to what I would consider an equivalent situation.

Quite a few people have expressed suspicion of gonnano but he has somehow escaped real scrutiny

??? Where have you been?

------------------------------------------------------
I find it hard to believe that people are finding my vote on Amrun scummy. He claimed

McCarthy

. That's as scummy as it gets.

Here's part of McCarthy's wikipedia entry:

The term McCarthyism, coined in 1950 in reference to McCarthy's practices, was soon applied to similar anti-communist activities. Today the term is used more generally in reference to demagogic, reckless, and unsubstantiated accusations, as well as public attacks on the character or patriotism of political opponents.[2]

This guy was so bad that his name has now become synonymous with demagogy.
Too lazy to look up demagogy? Here's what it means.

Demagogy is a strategy for gaining political power by appealing to the prejudices, emotions, fears and expectations of the public—typically via impassioned rhetoric and propaganda

So Amrun has claimed to be a man who is known almost exclusively for his desire to gain power by any means necessary, and who accomplished his goal largely by preying on the misconceptions of the innocent populace. And somehow I'm scummy for voting him.

Amrun's townie reaction to the apparent hammer is THE ONLY thing that is keeping me off his wagon, and I don't know that it will keep me off for long. All of the reasons he's given for his actions regarding the claim make just as much (or little) sense for scum as they do for town.

[gonnano]

Apparently no one thought this was worth responding to before, so I'll post it again.

@ Llama/ anyone else who has been calling for my death:

Could I see a general overview of the points against me, along with why a scum motivation for each is more likely than the reasoning that I have given for my actions? If there's something that I haven't explained I'd be happy to do so.

[gonnano]

I like how when I ask for some justification of the accusations against me, I'm then accused of being scummy for trying to defend myself. Great scumhunting there.

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but Furcolow actually made sense when he suggested that McCarthy could potentially be a miller. It's the only way that I can see for Amrun's flavor to be reconciled with his townie reaction to being lynched.


On a side note, paper ignites at about 450 degrees Celsius, not 451 degrees Fahrenheit.

[gonnano]

EGL's point about the likelihood of PI/Amrun being a miller is valid. However,

Sometimes an important part of a Miller role is that the player is not told this aspect of their role. Rather the Moderator assigns one person to be the Miller, but only tells him/her that the role is a vanilla townie. Thus, the Miller cannot simply claim their role Day 1 as a prevention against lynching.

We could potentially be in for some sweet, sweet irony.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary of the case on gonnano:
- Some people don't understand how there can be both townie and scummy aspects of a wagon. These people think that I contradicted myself regarding PI, and also think that if I say that a wagon is moving too fast I should also be able to pinpoint which of the voters, exactly, are making it go too fast.

- I said something earlier that can be viewed as scummy if you look at it from a certain perspective and then never consider trying to understand the actual intent of my statement

-I dodge questions by providing too many examples in my attempt to explain myself.


... and then there's the time that I voted for someone who claimed to be a bad guy.

Did I get everything? Is this what everybody is upset about? Because I can stop giving so many examples and start giving "X is scum, Y is town" type reads instead of explaining the different factors that are influencing my reads.

[gonnano]

Wow. At least Llama attempted to make a real case.

[gonnano]

go back and read my earlier post?

You mean the one where you criticize me for voting JMJ (for essentially the same reason you were voting him), then criticize me for voting Amrun when he does something scummy and then unvoting when he does something townie, then say that a general statement about how I would expect someone with the role of McCarthy to handle that role is somehow a reflection of the amount of concern I have for how others see me?
I saw it. It wasn't a real case.

bvoigt's summary of the case on gonna is exactly right. gonna has that vibe of "OMG me?????" about him, and frankly I'm tired of him always acting like the victim of baseless attacks.

Frankly, I'm tired of being subjected to baseless attacks. I don't have any objections to being suspected, but it's a little frustrating when the accusations consist more of people saying "Gonnano needs to die" than actual content.

It's scummy because, if you're town, you really don't need to be concerned about a couple of "baseless" votes or accusations against you. However, if you're scum, your focus is staying alive, so you want to look good and defend yourself thoroughly.

There's been a lot of very vocal support for these accusations, though. Is it really better to ignore it and hope that someone else will come save me before it gets out of hand? I agree that scum need to stay alive, but in most situations it's in a townie's best interest to stay alive, too.

My thinking is that if someone lets an accusation go uncontested, it's equivalent to admitting that it is true and hoping that no one will notice. Which seems like the wrong thing to do if the accusation is a poor one.

[gonnano]

Is this normally something you do as town...as in, devote entire posts just to asking for a summary of the points against you?

If you look, it was coupled with another post where I went through my thoughts on recent happenings. I made the request for a case a separate post because I wanted it to be noticed and responded to. Didn't work, but that was the plan.

Also, I believe I have devoted entire posts as town to asking for a case from someone. I don't know if any of the cases were on me, but that doesn't make much difference. It's still to everyone's benefit to have the case all together in one place.


I believe Thad's claim. Nothing about it throws up any flags to me, so I'll operate under the assumption that it's true until I see something that makes me doubt it.

Looking at the case on EGL, together with his sudden increase in presence right after someone said something about him lurking, I think he's more scummy than half the lynches that have been proposed so far this game.

Now, who to lynch?
- Ideally, I'd like to see Lowell, JMJ/moth, or EGL go to the noose. Lowell seems out of the question for now, so that brings it back to JMJ/moth or EGL.
- I won't vote for Thad unless he does something majorly scummy between now and deadline to change my mind
- I would still be willing to lynch PI/Amrun rather than no lynch (there's still that McCarthy claim to consider, as well as PI's play). However, Amrun is no longer a priority in my mind.
- of the two candidates in my first point, JMJ/moth's wagon appears to be on the decline, while EGL's seems to have some more support generally.

With deadline approaching, I intend to ride whichever one of these two wagons seems to be a more viable lynch, in the interest of lynching someone who is at least somewhat scummy. In the event that it comes down to an Amrun lynch or nothing, I'll vote Amrun.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: EGL

[gonnano]

Just because McCarthy would be a bad fakeclaim doesn't make the chance of Amrun being scum any less.

McCarthy is a dangerous claim to make period. The fact that she made it means it's probably true, but it also means that the main reason she

didn't

fakeclaim is most likely that she was worried that someone else would counterclaim. She's said as much in a previous post, if I remember correctly. Being worried about having a fakeclaim busted is just as legitimate a worry for scum as town in her situation, so her decision to go ahead and claim McCarthy doesn't hold much town cred with me.

Plus, by claiming McCarthy she gets to say "There's no way that scum would claim McCarthy! It's too risky!"

As I said earlier, the biggest thing Amrun has going for her is her reaction to being "lynched"

[gonnano]

None of it says anything about promoting or averting a nuclear conflict.

That's true. What it does describe, though, is an almost perfect representation of what scum want to do: gain power by preying on the misconceptions of others.

The only options for this role flavorwise as I see it are
A) McCarthy is scum.
B) The role is intended to draw suspicion to a town player, miller-style.
C) Whoever came up with the role doesn't know much about McCarthy.

and I don't think it's C.

[gonnano]

very sorry. I can't believe I did that.

can that be mod-fixed or something?

[gonnano]

Che Guevara?!

I've changed my mind. Now I think we should lynch either Guevara or McCarthy today. Both are really scummy roles, both have claimed to be town in a very WIFOMy way, and both have scummy predecessors. As Feysal pointed out, lynching a scummy role like this that claims to be town could be a good indicator of how much we can trust the flavor in this game.

Personally, I think we need to lynch one of them, and unless that person flips town we need to lynch the other one tomorrow.

Of the two, if either were to be town (and I don't think either of them are) it would be Che. He was a diplomat, and did what he did for his ideals rather than out of a lust for power like McCarthy. Also, since America came out on top after the Cold War, I imagine that most of the participants on the Communist side have been cast in a negative light by history, which would make it difficult for the mod to find non-scummy roles for communist townies.

So my preference would be to lynch McCarthy today, then lynch Che tomorrow unless we find out that the flavor is unreliable.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Amrun

I should be around quite a bit today, so I'll change my vote to Bunny if it's getting close to deadline and there's not enough support for a McCarthy lynch.

[gonnano]

Screams distancing and chainsaw defense at the same time.

Who am I defending? The only people I mentioned in that post were people I want to lynch.

If you're referring to the reasons that I gave as to why Che would be the one to be town if either of you were, I tried to make it clear that I don't think either of you are town. The reasons were to decide which scum claim to lynch first.

[gonnano]

So why are you voting the wrong person? If you think both claims are scum, which one is more dangerous to town? The one who will remove a vote for a day or the roleblocker? Answer is roleblocker, it can shutdown a town power role. If Amrun is town, any power still gets to use it, AND they can still contribute during the day.

That's a way of looking at it that I hadn't thought of earlier -- I'll have to think about it some more. But I think you're overstating the danger of a roleblocker. It can stop a town PR, but only if the RB knows who has the PR. At this point, Che would be just as likely to block a VT or even American scum as he would be to block a town PR. Amrun's power would be a small but important advantage for the mafia, and it has very predictable results.

I voted Amrun because since we're entertaining the notion that the flavor might not be completely trustworthy, we need to lynch the scummier flavor first. Plus, I've seen more scummy play from that slot than the Bunny slot.

@gonnano: You're chainsawing bunny while distancing/bussing her at the same time. "If one of these people flip town, they're both town. Let's lynch Amrun and find out." I was the first person to go after both Fuzzy and bunny.

Now I see. You think that I'm saying that if you flip town, Bunny gets off scot free. What I'm actually trying to say is that on the miniscule chance that you flip town, we give Bunny a chance to do some super townie things, then lynch him at the end of the day if he doesn't do something incredible.

We won't have to worry about any of this when you flip scum, though. We can just lynch Bunny D2 ASAP.

[gonnano]

Guevara was fighting for peace (his version of peace, but still peace), and McCarthy was after power. Both were actually enemies of the peace, but you can see why I think that flavor-wise McCarthy is the slightest amount scummier.

It doesn't matter much which one flips first, but it just makes sense to lynch the scummier one first in case something goes wrong with lynching the other one tomorrow.

Can anyone explain to me why a roleblocker is so much more dangerous than a silencer? Here's the situation as I see it.

-Che is most likely a mafia RB. (as someone said earlier, third party RB doesn't make much sense)
-A mafia RB has a certain chance of blocking a town PR. It's less than the chance of him not blocking a town PR.
-If the RB happens to target a town PR, he might be blocking a Vig or Doc or some other role that doesn't have a very good chance of helping the town on N1.
-If the RB doesn't happen to target a town PR, he could potentially be blocking American scum. This would actually help the town.

If there's roughly a 20 or 25 percent chance that RB blocks a town PR, and then there's maybe a 50% chance that the town PR was going to do something helpful, that works out to a 10 to 13 percent chance that the RB hurts the town on N1. And even then the damage likely wouldn't be severe, because the town would still have other PRs that weren't blocked.

Compare that to silencing, where the mafia gets to take away the vote (a townie's most powerful tool) of whoever is the most dangerous to them, and knows exactly who to target. 100 percent effective except for the outside chance of being blocked. Obviously the RB is more powerful later in the game, but right now I think the silencer is more dangerous.

Also two scum groups and American scum?

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but I'm assuming that if McCarthy is around there are more like him. I guess it's possible that the mod could have put Che and McCarthy on the same team, but they seem like very separate threats to the peace.

---------------------------------------------

As I said earlier, I will move my vote to Bunny if the town doesn't agree with me that Amrun should die first. We've still got several hours left before deadline, though, so I think everyone should at least consider it. If you're voting for someone besides Amrun or Bunny, I think it's time to pick a side. No one else is going to give us more information from a flip, and both candidates are plenty scummy.

[gonnano]

You're going to have to prove your statement that McCarthy was out for power, because I don't understand it at all.

After three largely undistinguished years in the Senate, McCarthy rose suddenly to national fame in February 1950 when he asserted in a speech that he had a list of "members of the Communist Party and members of a spy ring" who were employed in the State Department. McCarthy was never able to prove his sensational charge.

From 1950 onward, McCarthy continued to exploit the fear of Communism and to press his accusations that the government was failing to deal with Communism within its ranks. These accusations received wide publicity, increased his approval rating, and gained him a powerful national following.

[gonnano]

Well, he lied about having a list of soviet spies in the State Department, then he gained a lot of attention and power. I wasn't inside his head at the time, but somehow I don't think he just did it for fun. He lied about something as big as that and didn't gain anything from it besides attention and political power.
Is it splitting hairs to assume that his purpose was to gain attention and political power?

If you want me to "prove" someone's motivation I don't think I'm going to be able to help you. All I can do is tell you what they did, what they gained, and the motivation that makes sense for those actions.

[gonnano]

Well, he constantly changed the details of his story, like how many spies there were for instance. If he really thought they were spies, he would have tried to figure out how many there were before he went public.

It's possible that he really was trying to get rid of Communism and was just very very very bad at finding actual Communists. But that's just as impossible to "prove" as my claim that he was doing it for the power.

The fact is that he accused people of being traitors based on absolutely no evidence, and that behavior is really only explained by a lust for power.

[gonnano]

EGL: what about the "threat to the peace" wincon?

Amrun: so does this "surface motivation" thing work for everyone or only for you? Were Stalin and Castro just all-around good guys trying to help their countries the best way they knew how?

and I explain Bunny's flavor like this: He's lying scum who had to come up with some flavor that didn't immediately incriminate him. Unfortunately, he's not very good at flavor.

[gonnano]

I'm not trying to say that McCarthy was a communist dictator, I'm just saying that if you can't look at anything beyond surface motivation, then how can you accuse those communist dictators of wanting power when outwardly they said they were just trying to make life fair for everyone, redistributing the wealth as necessary?
I'll tell you how. You look at their actions, look at what they gained, and then decide what motivation fits the best.

Re: Bunny's flavor

I don't want war.
I don't believe people share that interest.
Thats all =/.

It doesn't 100% guarantee that Bunny is scum, Amrun. There are multiple ways to interpret it, but I chose the one that I find most likely, which is that bunny is scum and made this up on the spot.

[gonnano]

First you said this:

You're going to have to prove your statement that McCarthy was out for power, because I don't understand it at all.

So I tried. It's gone quite a bit further than I thought it would, but the reason I've participated in the whole back-and-forth is because McCarthy's motivation supports the thing that you say you still don't understand.

So bunny is most likely scum, but you try to re-start the wagon on me?

I'm still failing to see how this makes sense.

Guevara was fighting for peace (his version of peace, but still peace), and McCarthy was after power. Both were actually enemies of the peace, but you can see why I think that flavor-wise McCarthy is the slightest amount scummier.

It doesn't matter much which one flips first, but it just makes sense to lynch the scummier one first in case something goes wrong with lynching the other one tomorrow.

Yes, I think Bunny is most likely scum. I also think you're most likely scum. It made more sense to me to lynch you first.

-----------------------------------------------
I'll probably check in one more time before deadline. Barring any miracles, it looks like I'll be switching my vote to Bunny.

[gonnano]

"When forces of oppression come to maintain themselves in power against established law, peace is considered already broken."

That means that he considered his rebellions an effort to restore peace.

Also, he considered the United States an exploitative nation, broken beyond repair, that also happened to have nuclear weapons and wanted to attack Cuba. So of course he would want to use the missiles in defense of Cuba.

Look, you don't have to convince me that he's scummy. I was trying to decide which one could possibly be connected to the "threat to the peace" wincon, and it was an easier jump to make for Guevara than McCarthy.

None of it matters anyway, because Bunny is now basically the only viable lynch.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bunny

[gonnano]

I'll be happy to try it out.

VOTE: Amrun

So, it's probably one American and one Soviet scumteam?

VOTE: gonnano

Is the first part of this connected to the vote in some way? If it is, can you explain a little more?

I'm still in favor of an Amrun lynch, for the same reasons I outlined toward the end of D1. And I think it is DEFINITELY worth note that Lowell has continued to be an active lurker, even 48 pages in.

[gonnano]

I'm still in favor of an Amrun lynch, for the same reasons I outlined toward the end of D1. And I think it is DEFINITELY worth note that Lowell has continued to be an active lurker, even 48 pages in.

Some people have pointed this out, and it was poor communication on my part. The reasons that I outlined toward the end of D1 are why I'm

still supporting

an Amrun lynch, versus supporting in general. What I meant was that the guevara flip was not enough to convince me that Amrun was town based on flavor, as I still think McCarthy is even more likely to be scum than Che Guevara. I did not mean that the only reason I support an Amrun lynch is because of the flavor.

All of the problems with PI still apply, as well as the claim of a scummy name with a scummy power. Plus, now it turns out that Amrun A.) did not specify a target before night as promised, and B.) apparently was lying about being able to silence people (without nightkilling them, anyway)

I'm leaving my vote where it is. Amrun is obviously scum.

@Feysal: while we're giving out possible scumtells, why did

you

think there were two scum teams?

[gonnano]

I'll look into some of Lowell's other games for myself.
Meanwhile, Amrun is still scum. I voted for PI before, then unvoted because the wagon speed made me uneasy. Amrun has done plenty since then to help me get over my discomfort. Most notably, the claim and how none of it is townie in any way.

I didn't specify a target ONLY because people told me not to

I missed that before.

On balance, I think it would be more valuable to the town to announce your target ahead of time for one night. Then you can prove yourself (or disprove yourself), and the town suffers very little damage even if everything goes wrong. Plus, there's still information to be gleaned from seeing whether scum choose to block you or not.

Frankly, I think tying up a roleblocker is more valuable (in the long run) than having a silencer anyway.

[gonnano]

We've already talked about the fact that the claim is not a scumtell. Specifically, what are those other reasons for voting Amrun?

It is a scumtell, though. A weakened scumtell after the Che flip, admittedly, but still a scumtell.

Given the way the Cold War panned out, it's much more likely for us to be finding scummy-sounding communist roles that end up being townie than it is for us to be finding scummy-sounding capitalist roles that end up being townie. And if McCarthy isn't scum, then there's probably not an American scumteam. However, as it stands there seems to be a definite possibility that there

is

an American scumteam, which in turn means that there is an equal possibility that McCarthy is scum.

Poison Ivy's play is a large part of why I don't like the slot; Amrun's claim is still a scumtell, and other than that Amrun's defenses of herself have been coming off as a little too vigorous to me overall, like someone who is more worried about staying alive than getting information for the town.

--------------------------------------------------

Well, gonnano, you should have spoken up anyway. That's what I thought, but no one else seemed to think so, and you were around at the time.

You're manufacturing a case based on something you were fine with yesterday.

Gonnano is scum.

As I said in 1286, I missed the interaction between you and Thad until just now when I read your response to me, went back, and looked it up. So at the time, I assumed that your intentions were still to announce your target before night.

But if you really believed it at the time, why didn't you give the reasons that I just gave? From going back and reading, it appears that everyone would have been open to a reasonable, logical suggestion. In fact, Thad is the only person I saw who gave any kind of reason not to do it that way.

Now that I think about it, scum could have very easily taken that opportunity to not announce a target, and get an opportunity to talk it out overnight and decide who the best "target" would be. Your response to Thad seemed a lot like "Well, when you put it that way it makes sense" which translates to "Finally, an excuse to not have to help the town any more than I have to" in scumspeak.

[gonnano]

If I didn't want to help the town, why would I have made the announcement that I was going to do it in the first place?

You would have offered to let the town pick a target in order to gain town cred and not be lynched. As scum, you would then jump at the chance to "assume tacit agreement with Thad" instead of doing what you know to be better for town.

And plus, I decided that if I came out and said it in those exact terms that it would defeat the purpose.

Not at all. The purpose was to prove that you were what you said you were -- which you haven't. And giving the sort of WIFOMY logic behind picking a target could only increase your chance of not being roleblocked (because even if you target scum there's now a chance that they will choose not to RB you), therefore helping achieve the real purpose of announcing the target, which is to verify part of your claim.

Your flavor argument is really terrible.

No it isn't. Even without Che, potential communist scum names are plentiful. It's going to be tough to find capitalist names to put on a scumteam to begin with (since the winners get to write the history), and not including McCarthy is like shooting yourself in the foot as a mod.

DP: Also, someone could have legitimately wanted to block Amrun's power, either because scum thought he was a town PR or because town thought he was scum. He could even be lying about his power.

[gonnano]

I disagree completely. I didn't want to give scum ideas and that's why I didn't come out and state explicitly. No one seemed to want to go along with my plan.

It doesn't matter if you "give scum ideas". The point of announcing your target is to help clear your name, and some limited information is just a bonus. And I didn't see too many people against your plan, either. If you really thought it was good, why didn't you bring it up again?

Your Che argument is still terrible.

I don't want to get in another back-and-forth over flavor where we both say the same thing ten times, but I do want to say that I've given reasons why my statement is at least plausible, while you have yet to point out the flaws that you say you see in it.

I still think amrum shouldn't claim her target before night, especially now that I think amrum isn't scum.

Why do you still think that announcing the target is a bad idea? Even if Amrun is blocked, the town doesn't lose much (chances are she won't be targeting scum, especially if she's scum herself), and it could potentially give the town some information.

OK, fine. Even though we already had one scummy-sounding name flip town, I'll just concede this point and let everyone else take note that most of your scumhunting is based on flavor rather than actual play.

So are you going to say that every scummy name from now on is guaranteed town? Even disregarding flavor entirely, Amrun's slot is still one of the scummiest in the game.

The second point seems pretty hypocritical after you asked numerous times for a summary of the points against you.

It's fine for Amrun to defend herself and it's fine for me to defend myself. Sometimes the only way to do that is to get people to make an actual case. However, Amrun's responses have seemed to me like they were not geared towards processing information in a logical manner, but rather towards shifting the blame as quickly as possible. I don't believe that I've been guilty of this anywhere close to the extent that Amrun has, and therefore I don't consider my statement hypocritical.

Even if Amrun is lying (about having this power) which seems unlikely, we will be able to confirm that tomorrow or the next day in the VC. Amrun should not be the lynch today.

That's a decent point... I'm still concerned that everyone is going to forget how scummy the Amrun/PI slot is, though. And if we decide publicly that the only reason we're keeping Amrun around is to figure out if she's lying or being RB'd, it defeats the purpose.

------------------------------------------------------

I was looking back over D2 and thought this was interesting

And I don't know if I was roleblocked, gonnano. I figured I probably would be, to be perfectly honest. Your vote is probably still good.

This comes IMMEDIATELY after I vote. Before the next vote count even shows up, Amrun is scrambling to say that she was probably roleblocked. Sounds like someone knew for sure that my vote was going to be showing up on that vote count.

[gonnano]

bvoigt: I didn't mean to imply that you had actually said that. I was trying to illustrate the fact that scummy names are still scummy, and even if not all of them are actually scum there's a good chance that most of them will be. What's the point of having a theme if there's no correlation between flavor and role? I agree that flavor isn't enough by itself, but I also think that if you take out flavor entirely Amrun's slot is a strong contender for the scummiest player, and with the scummy flavor and role it just makes sense to lynch her.

Thad: That makes sense, but don't you think it might be worth trading one night's worth of RB-tying-up for a chance at substantiating Amrun's claim to be a silencer? Even if you have a town read on her it could be useful to see.

[gonnano]

I did actually refute your argument extensively, yesterday, gonnano. I don't feel the need to repeat myself, especially since my side was validated by Bunny flipping town.

Try again, Amrun. Most of what you said yesterday was about how Che is a scummy role (which I already agreed with) and how I couldn't "prove" McCarthy's motivation.
The only support you gave for why you think Che might be

more likely

to be scum in this game than McCarthy was when you said that he had a hand in nuclear warfare, while McCarthy didn't. Hardly extensive, and in my opinion not accurate either. The Cuban Missile Crisis didn't result in any actual nuclear warfare -- just the threat of nuclear warfare. While McCarthy's actions might not have been as devastating as Che's, I think that they were more underhanded, and therefore more scummy.

I don't mean to revisit the useless argument we had D1, but the point is that you have yet to "refute my argument extensively".

--------------------------------------

And now Lowell's voting me with the logic that I haven't been lynched yet. Can't argue with that.

--------------------------------------

Thad: your explanation about the target-claiming with amrun makes perfect sense ... considering that you think she's town. Because I don't think Amrun is town, I still don't share your opinion, but it's not because there's a problem with your position.

Regarding post 1297, I think it makes good sense (and my pick out of the three is Lowell, for the record), but Amrun is higher on the list for me right now. Already people are starting to forget how scummy this slot has been, so I really can't see anything good out of waiting to lynch.

-----------------------------------------

DP has been a null read for me mostly, but LMP makes a very good point.

[gonnano]

If I was lying about my powers, I would have picked a less scummy power than silencing. Ugh.

Stop polluting the game with your WIFOM trash.

Occam's Razor.

I don't think Occam's razor applies exactly to a situation like this. The simplest explanation in almost every case is to assume that everyone is telling the truth, but that kind of thinking won't get you very far in a game based on lying.

[gonnano]

You mentioned lowell is your preferred pick out of the three I mentioned. Would you like to elaborate on that?

Lowell's posting in general has seemed very bad to me. He's not posting much (according to some people this is his meta, so it might not be worth a lot), but what really makes me uneasy is that the statements he does make are not pro-town. As far as I can tell, he's trying as hard as he can to avoid contributing to the discussion in any way.

[gonnano]

With regard to recent developments, I'd be willing to consider a DP lynch. I still like my Amrun vote for now, though. Furcolow reads foolish rather than scummy to me.

[gonnano]

I like Thad's analysis, although I disagree somewhat about bvoigt, who seems to me the most town out of the three that Thad was looking at. I've been getting scummy vibes off of smarg throughout the game, but I'm still not sure if I've seen enough to warrant a vote.

Furcolow's accusation about Sathoris PMing him is a null tell, reads as more VIS play on Furcolow's part.

[gonnano]

Well, I guess I was too late to remind everyone that the PI/Amrun slot is still scummy.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: smarg

Because smarg is the only person that seems scummy to me who also has a reasonable chance of being lynched today.

[gonnano]

I cannot believe that Amrun flipped town.
I'd say that we're almost certain to find another scum, maybe even two more, in the pool of people who lynched Amrun. I'm not trying to be opportunistic here -- I'd include myself in that group because honestly, if I had showed up in time I would have voted her too.

I think Thad and Sathoris both have good points based on bandwagon analysis, and the parts of the wagons they've looked at seem the most important to me. Just to make sure that the big picture is still being involved in this, though, here are the two lynching wagons.

Complete Bunny wagon-

LlamaFluff

,

Amrun

,

RedCoyote

, bvoigt, smargaret, Lowell,

Nachomamma8

, Stephoscope, DavidParker, Furcolow,

InflatablePie

, gonnano, EGL

Complete Amrun wagon-

VP Baltar

, bvoigt,

Nachomamma8

, smargaret, Furcolow,

Debonair Danny DiPietro

, LynchMePls, Beasts of the Sea, Stephoscope, DavidParker, EGL
... and add me because I would have voted if I had been here in time.

So people who are suspicious because of their involvement with both wagons are: bvoigt, smarg, Stephoscope, DavidParker, Furcolow, EGL, and um... me.

That's kind of a large pool of suspects, but I definitely think it's in the interest of the town to lynch within this pool today.

With that in mind, please direct your attention to pages 43 and 64, where bvoigt votes bunny and amrun, respectively, and then smarg's

very next post

after each of those is voting for the same person as bvoigt. Looks suspicious to me.

[gonnano]

I almost want to ignore the flavor now, since every other piece of flavor has obviously been designed to confuse me. However, Brandt did win the Nobel Peace Prize...
I don't know. Smarg still looks scummy.

I think we need to consider some ways to use smarg's roleclaim to our advantage. Neighbor makes plenty of sense as a mafia fakeclaim, for obvious reasons, and even though Scott says he's never seen it before, I'm sure it's been done.

If smarg's neighbor/scumbuddy decides to confirm smarg's claim, then we can be pretty certain that the two people are linked. If one of the two later flips mafia, then we've got a guaranteed scum. So I think that would be a good idea to move forward with.

Also:

If smarg is truthful, then the fact that Brandt is a neighbour rather than a mason makes me think a Yanqui scum group is likely.

Can you explain this some more? I'm having trouble making the connection.

[gonnano]

Unless I'm mistaken, we wouldn't be able to confirm anyone as scum. One neighbor could be scum, and the other town.

You're right. I posted that in a hurry and didn't think things through.

[gonnano]

To fix my earlier statement:

If smarg's neighbor/scumbuddy decides to confirm smarg's claim, then we can be pretty certain that the two people are linked. If one of the two later flips mafia

and NOT neighbor

, then we've got a guaranteed scum.

sorry about that.

[gonnano]

I'm back, and I agree with Feysal's analysis of Furcolow and his interactions with Artem. I think it is unlikely that Furc's claimed nationality is a lie, because it seems like an unnecessary risk to take.

I think my own scumminess has been blown way out of proportion. I'll be the first to admit that I've made mistakes in this game, but I don't think I've done anything that makes me the best lynch for today.

After thinking about it some more, I agree with the people who said that smarg probably wouldn't claim neighbor if she wasn't one. I still think it would be good to get some more information about the neighbor, though, since it's a relatively safe claim in terms of giving information to the mafia, and it might lead to some good analysis of earlier posts. Not to mention that it would act as insurance against the outside chance that smarg isn't a neighbor.

Let's start with this.
@smarg: Is your town read on your neighbor based on some kind of special information that you have because you are neighbors?

[gonnano]

Out of the people are being voted right now, smarg is the only one who really makes sense to me as scum, with bvoigt a secondary possibility purely because of the connection with smarg. The claim of someone who won the Nobel Peace Prize made me hesitate, but in the end it isn't enough for me.
VOTE: Smarg

I'm still not sure why exactly people are voting me, but since asking for reasons apparently makes me scum, I won't bother.

PR EDIT:

I am Janos Kadar, Hungarian Watcher

[gonnano]

I know that I didn't claim in perhaps the best way, but I was on my way out as I was posting, saw the L-1, and quickly decided to claim to prevent myself from being mislynched.

Anyway, here's the rest.

I have very little flavor -- I watch over my people, win when threats to the peace are gone.

N1 - I targeted Artem because at the time he seemed like one of the most townie players to me, and I thought he would make a likely mafia NK. No one showed up that night.

N2 - I targeted Furcolow, because I was convinced that he was ripe for vigging. I debated between picking Furc and trying to pick someone who would draw a mafia NK (catching mafia would obviously be better than catching a vig), but no one stood out to me so much that I could justify giving up what I thought of as an almost certain way to get some information. Much to my surprise, Furcolow was not visited that night.