Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]

[Purple Orange]

@ Grey - Hahaha. Ha. ha.

And methinks Reck's right. Less info mafia has about who will die if they shoot someone, the better. Would you rather have them aim for who they think the most dangerous singular player is, and maybe shoot the crappier team, or for who they think the most dangerous team-as-a-whole is?

Vote: Antihero

- blissfully ignoring the whole Grey-Reck-claim thing going down around him. (silavor at least gets in on the action tangentially with his vote)

[Purple Orange]

Lulz. No nightkill. I'm an idiot too.

Well, change shoot to push-for-a-lynch?

[Purple Orange]

Also, how is silavor's vote anymore related to the issues at hand than mine?

He at least mentions the claim issue. Though

pretty

sure he was joking.

Also, the only one it clears is silavor. The only way it clears Reckoner or PO is if you believe that antitowns wouldn't lie when it's advantageous for them to do so.

I'm confuzzled as to how it clears silavor. And I

am

inclined to think it clears Reck, at least with a fair degree of probability. His reaction read very natural.

And, btw, Antihero (which is why he's ignoring the Reck/ICE drama, PO )

Dammit, man. NOW who do I vote for?

[Purple Orange]

It clears silavor because antitowns don't clarify matters to advocate a protown course. They might if it hurts the town. They might if it saves their own neck. But silavor could have easily stayed quiet then and let Reckoner's (genuine or deliberate) error hold. Instead he called Reckoner out. I don't see an antitown doing that.

Because otherwise no single one of the many competent players in this game would have come along and soon clarified it anyway? If there was any towncred to be gained by clarifying things first, why NOT take it? If you can see ulterior insincere motives in Reck, I can find them for silavor. There's no more "evidence" he's clear than Reck. It comes down to whether you read them as responding sincerely or not.

He at least mentions the claim issue. Though pretty sure he was joking.

No, he didn't. He was responding to Espy's "claim."

Which I saw as tangentially touching upon the claim issue. (Ditto Espy's "claim.") Yours was the only post I saw that completely ignored everything else happening inthread. (Which makes sense, now I know you're Grey's mason).


Am fine with claiming, but I dunno my partner's opinion on the matter yet, and would prefer to get his OK first.

[Purple Orange]

Lucky Bastard

I'm crushed.

ConfirmLover: Espy

[Purple Orange]

Hey there, Emp. Yup. I knew there was daytalk. And I'd forgotten. Which is one reason I correctly myself so quickly - it was a "doh, that's right" remembering, not something that hit me completely out of the blue.

You can believe me or not, and people probably won't. So my apologies in advance to Espy for not reviewing the game rules before I posted, and getting him killed because of it. I can say as scum I'd have looked more carefully at what I said in the signup thread, but it's all WIFOM at this point.

And as I was writing a longer post anyway, I might as well post that:
=======================

A guilty silavor could have sit back and let the confusion develop. He may or may not have stuck his neck out to further any misunderstanding. But he didn’t do either of those things. He immediately clarified it to a protown course. Which I don’t see an antitown player doing. (In fact, no one has disputed that it was a protown move; the only argument seems to be how conclusively protown it is.)

Actually, someone did:

But yeah that's weird logic for calling Silvavor town; pretty much anyone could have corrected that.

Maybe he was scum hoping to nip a potential source of towncred in the bud.

I was accepting your assumption it was a protown move for the sake of the argument - even IF it was a clarifying protown move, I cannot see how it clears silavor as town. I'm not sure this is worth arguing about, and I'm happy to drop it (as you seem to have when it came to my response), but I

am

completely befuddled by your reasoning here. What you seem to be saying is that anti-town players would never make a strategic helpful/protown move...which is absurd. Have you noticed why GreyICE is accusing my darling lover Espy of being scum, for instance?

Could you be a little more nonconfrontational and skim the thread a bit harder? You've got a list of posts contributing nothing but creating a "solid" history of "helpful" posting...

I'd disagree with GreyICE about his particular application of the tell in the case of Espy. But not the fact that it

can

work as a tell.

And though we're working with a tiny sample size, I actually think it applies quite well to silavor's current ISO.

On that note,

Unvote, Vote: silavor

, as Anti-Grey are a team, and I'm still trying to decide whether to roll my eyes at Grey or call him scum.

[Purple Orange]

Hey there, Emp. Yup. I knew there was daytalk.

Make that "no nightkill."

[Purple Orange]

Sivalor isnt scum, Purple Orange. I would request you explain why you expect more posts from him since the game has only been open for about 24 hours.

It's not that I expect more posts, it's that I expected more in the posts already posted. Unlike you and some other folks who just had time to say "hi" in the thread, silavor was following the discussion for a while -- and unlike them, he didn't cast an actual vote or give an opinion on anyone. (Thingy didn't do so great either). Maybe I missed someone in my ISOs, but that's what I saw.

Not saying it's the grandest case made ever. I often scumhunt with questions, too, at the beginning of threads, so there's that to take into account with his last post, which actually maybe confronts someone. Plus, yeah...the fact it's hard to derive much from a track record of 5 whole posts. But I prefer to have my vote on someone, I don't want it on Grey/Anti (where it was sitting before) unless or unless or until I feel I can articulate at least a halfbaked case on the guys; and this is what I've got right now, until I do another reread of the thread and maybe find someone better. silavor is not-as-town as the other pairs I've looked at.

PO, I'm not quite sure how the point you're trying to make about me applies to me more than anyone else. A lot of what's been going on for the first five pages or so seems like rather useless chatter to me, and I don't have a whole lot to say regarding the recent pages, either. It doesn't mean I'm scum, and it certainly doesn't mean I've got a history of making "helpful" posts, seeing how I haven't

made

any posts in the first place.

Thing is, I

don't

consider the first five pages useless chatter. Did you see how quickly serious votes started being cast? The case on Grey/Anti is basically made from pages 1 and 2. Reck and I have suspicion/towncred/whatever on us left and right because of our reactions to Grey. Thingy made some posts I need to take a second look at. (And have you seen the whole argument I've been having with Emp about your ISO 2, which was apparently so amazingly helpful and clarifying for the town that he cleared you as town?) There was a LOT that went on, and a LOT that got said.

And there's certainly a lot that's gone on since then. What do you think of the latest couple pages?

[Purple Orange]

c) No, I think he was lying about forgetting. PO said that he only signed up because this was a nightless daytalking game. I don't believe he could have forgotten it 2 days later. And, I mean, even GreyIce said his I-forgot-the-game-was-nightless was "contrived".

I'm in other games here and on another site. I haz a real life. I forgot, and as far as I was concerned that day, the only new shiny thing in this game was the daytalk (on which there was a topic in the Mafia Discussion board I'd been following). I jumped in feetfirst, started reading an exchange I found hilarious (because I know Grey's a very competent player), where the fundamental assumption of one player was that there were nightkills, and the other player didn't correct him. And I never bothered to questioned the assumption. Until I re-read Grey's post, and went "LOL. I'm an idiot. That's right, this thing has no nightkills."

It's all I can say. You either believe me or you don't. Obviously you don't. I don't know that I would in your shoes.

PO:
I have never seen a mafia member act so quickly to defuse and clarify. (And that's even not taking into account the daytalking.) Have you?
(And I read GreyIce's calling Espeonage "helpful" as sarcasm. Hence the quotes.)

Meh, I think some of Espy's WERE actually helpful.

And...err...

I've

defused and clarified as scum before? Mostly when I got bloody annoyed that people were being idiots (personality tell), and when I was looking desperately for something safe to say that would make it look like I was jumping in and contributing to the thread early on, and save me from the accusation of lurk lurk lurking away. Again, if you know someone's going to say it eventually, why NOT jump on it for any possible towncred? So...yeah. Sorry. There's very few times I'll dismiss something as stuff scum just wouldn't do. And that post in particular

is

something I could see myself saying as scum. Particularly in that manner, as a softpeddled question-statement.

It was your quickness to clear silavor - not even just say it indicated he was town, or that he was probably town, but outright CLEAR him - over something I read as pretty darn null, that confused me here. 100% understand not wanting to clear me or Reck. (Even though I disagreed on Reck at that point). Do NOT understand clearing silavor.

On an unrelated note, have you and Thingy just decided to let you be the team spokesperson? Because if I went after silavor over that stuff, I should have totally gone after him as well. It's largely the fact you're paired with him makes me

not

, at this point. (Well, that, and the fact that although he annoys me to death and has said zilch, right now I'm actually reading him as town).

[Purple Orange]

I prefer to deal with Esp & Purp, day 1. If Esp (Purp too, I believe) isn't going to add anything like he suggests the rest of us should, then he's not needed. I'd like to keep Reck & Nero around so they can spot the rival-scum lynching their buddies.

LOL. At least if I'm lynched, it'll be because I was useless. That actually makes me feel better.

Cross out my support of Reck then, if really was

that

aware of the setup. I darn forgot that half of the setup, so I could actually understand Reck forgetting, IM conversation or no. But "didn't realize" =/= forgot.

I also realize I never explicitly mention forgetting (pre Emp post), unfortunately, so make of that what you will.

The point about Thingy is interesting, though. I'll have to take a look at it.

Dunno that there's any doubt about this anymore, but Thingy's telling the truth about the werewolf thing. Even if he hadn't posted a link, the construction of his sentences in that one post indicates it's just a vocabulary difference, with wolves = scum and "wolf hunting" used like our term scumhunting.

Does anyone think Umbrage is already chainsawing for GreyIce during RVS?
Emp's case on GreyIce is weak, sure, but getoutofRVSreasoning is always stretchy.

I thought the defense was strange, because Grey's first posts were definitely scummy...snake nailed it, Emp expounded. It's just that knowing some of Grey's proclivities, I'm more inclined to laugh at him and suspend judgment for a bit longer.

[Purple Orange]

@ Reck: Way to make anew wagon but I can't really agree with it. The tone is somewhat jovial in the first post so I am inclined to believe that most parts are joking as she said. I think you're reading a bit much into it but it's still a valid case if you interpret it that way. I'm not going to join that wagon but I'm not going to oppose.

Now to go read a couple of pages. Give me a few minutes, if I'm allowed them.

He's actually on my silavor wagon. :p They just need to claim lovers and get it over with.

AND WHY ARE YOU FENCESITTING??? How much more wishy-washy can you get on the Haylen thing??

Tone of post reads definitely jovial to me, and I think Reck's case is exaggerated crud blown way out of proportion, but I'm thinking that's just a symptom of how he plays. (Was that wishy washy on Reck?) And sez the person who made a case on silavor based on...well, really not much, but there you have it. Not seeing anything overtly town in Haylen's posts, however, so I'm happy continuing to bothering silavor.

[Purple Orange]

And sez the person who made a case on silavor based on...well, really not much, but there you have it. Not seeing anything overtly town in Haylen's posts, however, so I'm happy continuing to bothering silavor.

Glad to know I'm being targeted just because you feel like targeting me. It lends

so

much credit to your case.

Hey now, "really not much" still equals a bit of something. I feel like targetting you because because, unlike some of the other pairs I've looked at, you and Haylen have yet to do anything that makes me go, "....eeesch, yeah, that's pretty townie town town." And because you hadn't taken stands on anyone. I did consider moving my vote Reck after Kise told us Reck was lying, but decided I'd keep holding it on you. Because no one else is, because you and Haylen are getting very worked up about it, and because you two have been playing WAY more defense than offense.

EBWOP: well, I think that counts as a stand on someone. LOL.

Except Kise & I have not talked about this game once, and I wasn't even consciously aware of the fact that he was IN THIS GAME until he posted his first post, which contained the initial attack on me.

Of course that would change things. Seeing what

I

bloody well forgot, I don't put it beyond the realm of possibility that Kise misremembered who he was talking to. But, yeah. I think you're telling the truth. If you're lying, my hat's off to you.

[Purple Orange]

@ Kise - I read Reck's post 169 as responding fully to everything you said in 117. "I KNOW you read the role PMs during signups" -- what do you say to that other than, " dude, I didn't, my only acquaintance with this setup AT ALL until today was adding a /in to the singup thread"? So...yeah. I really don't see anything fishy there.

I also think you believed completely in what you said, too. Lying about a conversation would be...yeah, seriously,

it makes no sense

. Especially if there was the possibility of it being disproved. Which is why Esp and me thought that maybe you folks could be on the same scumteam, doing some crazy gambit...then realized that was stupid too, because a 1:1 trade early would be even stupider, and the whole thing wouldn't make the other pair clear of scum suspicion anyway. Sooo...I'm left believing you were telling the truth about the IM thing, just mixed up the recipient.

I still read Reck as genuine over the first page, but I've never actually played a game with him before, so my gut on this

is

questionable.

And you don't seem scummy.
==================
@ GreyICE...you're lurking backstage, man. Wassup with that? Things too interesting in the scum quicktopic? I iz missing your awesome scumhunting craziness.
==================

What I'm not understanding is what she could have been doing for that minute or 2 to realize this is nightless, when her first post gave the impression she looked over everything - including Grey's comment about scum not being able to harm anyone.

Again, failed to grasp the significance of Grey's until I reread the posts on that page. Which, yeah. I know sounds horrible and fabricated, but there it is. (Even if I'm scum, though, I think you still have to believe that I failed reading comprehension that day, posting what I did after Grey had already cleared up the issue).

And I don't see why he mixes up daytalk with nightkilling in his ohnoI'mmadienow post unless he had already internalized the setup beforehand and thus thinks of them as equally obvious.

Uh...I didn't? I mixed them up in my reply to Emp later in the thread. Unless you're talking about that post?

[Purple Orange]

I am sorry that I am managing to "annoy you to death" somehow? :S - if it's because I've said "zilch" (which I think is a bit unfair and harsh to say - especially given that I've apparently said enough to warrant a town read), then I'm reading the thread right now and will have some thoughts when I'm done.

Yeah, maybe a bit harsh, but all your posts up to that point could be summarized: "we should massclaim, I don't agree with my lover on GreyICE maybe, and I'm a villagey villagerish villa!" :p Last bit in particular drove me up the wall.

You say you think Umbridge/q21 are too scummy to be scum - what in particular did you find scummy about them?

There is a big shiny delete button.

Uh...I think we all assumed there was the possibility that Reck could have deleted stuff? Again, my hat's off to him if he's lying, as that was some pretty darn genuine looking outrage. :p

[Purple Orange]

@ vezok:

Why do I keep seeing 5 pages over the night????

I don't like Kdca wagon. I don't know. Something just irks me I see in one page a lot of people sheeping each other and doing exactly what Kdca did all game.

...and the q21 wagon didn't bother you at all?

In related news, you call q21 scum for some unnamed reason, start the wagon on him, then don't bother to say another word about him, even with the Umbridge-q21-Grey-Anti matter that erupted later. On the other hand, you take time to comment on the Kise/Reck matter, you conclude one of them is lying, and you call Kise scum. Why did you think q21 was scum the first place? What was scummy to you about him that made you leave your vote on him instead of moving it over to Kise?


@ Antihero:

Read Kise's ISO.

I'm convinced of my vote. Reck seems to want to blow it WAY out of proportion. As far as I'm concerned, scummy thing happen IN thread rather out of thread.

Reck is over-perusing baseless and harmless nothings.

That's that.

buddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddybuddy

Why do you single out kcda in particular for buddying?


@ q21

I quite like reck's Haylen vote...

What did you mean by this? (Sorry the question is vague. I just can't think of a better way to ask it.)


@ Thingyman

wrt q21 & Umbrage: I am by no means clearing them and I will not in any way oppose their lynch, but I am personally thinking that they're perhaps "too scummy to be scum", so I am ignoring them for now.

You say you think Umbridge/q21 are too scummy to be scum - what in particular did you find scummy about them?

^Answer plz?

VOTE: Kcdaspot

Oh, and reason for this one, too.

[Purple Orange]

Because it looks to me like he's just doing it to get Kise's favor.

Do you see anyone else buddying Kise so blatantly?

I actually don't see how his post is any worse (well, aside from his complete failure to grasp the issue) than the rest of the people who were picking a side in this thing. Mariyta's 200? Espy's 302? Umbrage's 316? (leaving out dram, as I'm told that's a special case). LOL, what about

me

saying I read Reck as sincere? People have been calling people town all thread, and sometimes very strongly.

I thought that reck's case and vote on Haylen had a shred of validity and given how early it was in the game I felt it was enough to vote on... and I was busy being too disinterested to think for myself at that moment.

Do you consider that to be mindlessly sheeping, blindly sheeping, some other kind of sheeping, or NOT sheeping?

@ PO

The scumminess about q21 has already been outlined by other ppl - and I agree that it looks level 1 scummy.

So did you agree with all of it? Part of it? What parts?

Does anyone who is not Umbrage want a history of the scummy things he's done? Or were my earlier posts on the subject quite enough?

Actually, I'd appreciate a nice clean bulletpoint summary free from histrionics.

[Purple Orange]

So far, I haven't seen anyone display any signs of having read my posts.

* I disagree with your case on Reck, but it's rational. Just took a while (and some posts from Emp and q21) for the thought process of your position to get completely laid out and the gaps filled in.

* Are there any additional reasons you find Reck scummy, independent of the "one of them has to be lying" reason?

* If there's any OMGUS-style stuff, it starts when you chainsaw-defend for your lover by FoS-ing Grey/Anti. Either way, I could care less, as there's no law that says, "thou canst not attack a scummy person who didst first attack thee."

* I found your early defense of Grey, then of me, strange. I

can

buy Grey's argument that it was calculated and deliberate. Pattern doesn't continue, though, so, meh.

2. Nero Cain is Reck's lover, and one of the people Kise said he could've chatted with. With a QT, it would be pretty easy for the two of them to play on a mistake made by Kise.

Confused here. Does the "mistake" refer to Kise mixing up Reck and Nero?

=============

Um, that doesn’t change that “A total and complete 180 from each other without even ACKNOWLEDGING each other's position” is flat out wrong. And you’re just as wrong about that second post. q21 isn’t attacking vezok because vezok voted me or suspected you. He’s attacking vezok because vezok was taking contradictory positions. There’s no 180, because q21 and Umbrage are talking about 2 different issues.

^THIS.

=============

PO, are you known for being a good scum? Do you make long and thoughtful posts in all of your games?

Maybe against weak to average players in 24hr cycle games? Not much experience with either side when it comes to these three-week-day games. I've completed one pretty good scum game where I had almost everyone thinking I was obvtown, and one absolutely horrid one where I screwed over my team with my scumminess and poor choice of night action. I tend to post long and thoughtfulish posts regardless of alignment.

[Purple Orange]

Espy's unvote would be my fault. I told him I was seeing a helluva lot of STUPID from kcda, but not necessarily scum. And that BS was V/LA for the past couple days, not lurking, and that we were jumping on this thing with very little data. Also that I found it hard to believe that a 4-person scum daytalk quicktopic would let kcda behave so darn badly, or be unable to fill him in on the right details. The fact that Emp also didn't like the wagon reinforced my caution.

Espy is wanting to play some stuff close to the chest, here, and I've been disagreeing with him about that too. :p

[Purple Orange]

To be perfectly frank, one of the others in the 4 person chat is Baby Spice. Also, 4 person daychat could result in exactly the behavior pattern we're seeing. kcda suddenly started apologizing for his 'shit play' and backed the fuck off of what he was doing before. So, who told him off? Us in the thread? Maybe, but I don't think so. Baby Spice? Uh... yeah. No. So... who?

Well, yeah. I said all this to Espy, and he unvoted, before kcda made his "sorry for my shit play" post. And I

do

think Baby Spice told him off - you see him "get it"

only after she comes back

. It's possible they're stuck on a scumteam with vezok/Snake or dram/wolf or something, in which case kcda may very well have been left out to dry with zero help anyway until BS returned. But everyone else in this thread seems to "get it" and have some definite opinions on it and be active.

[Purple Orange]

Anyhows - what I was writing before that interruption:

Unvote, Vote: GreyICE

Because Espy sez I can (FINALLY), and because benefit of the doubt has its snapping and breaking point. If it walks and talks and looks like scum...yeah, there's a good chance it's scum. I believe you said this yourself, Grey?

Anti is decently null to me.

But Grey has misreps, ad homs, and the worst facade of aggressive scumhunting I've seen in a long time. Which, meh, might not be so bad in itself, because one can get reactions from a push like that (see benefit of the doubt). But then the final, "oh, ok, people don't seem to be buying this case...let's give myself a backdoor out and say maybe Umbrage is just really bad town...let's turn on a dime and drop this guy and sheep the kcda wagon!" That was pretty darn bad.

Umbrage may very well be scum - not because of Grey's crud case on him/q21, or even because of his defensive reactions (still trying to decide whether it's defensive scum of incensed town), but because of some stuff q21 does later in the thread. Still rather ambivalent about him.

Not so ambivalent about Grey. I pushed him on the lurking/not contributing thing gently earlier, but that was damn serious. Because he was. And when he got aggressive after being called out, he did it BADLY.

[Purple Orange]

Umbrage may very well be scum [...] because of some stuff q21 does later in the thread.

And also some stuff Umbrage does a bit later.

To avoid vagueness here: didn't like q21's ISO 5
* Lotta people make excuses for their absences. But the only time I've felt the need to make a point of saying I saw the game as a commitment, honest! was when I was scum. (kcda also gets major scumpoints for something similar in his latest post).
* The really wordy and roundabout storybook way he took of saying the DARN SIMPLE THING of "Reck could have deleted the conversation." Can I pinpoint exactly why this makes me uneasy? Not really. But it does. Best shot I can give is that it reads like him going, "oh look I'm generating a long post of content!"

Later Umbrage stuff:
* Umbrage distances himself from "the town" a lot with the language of his posts. I know he could do this as frustrated town as well, like most of the defensive stuff -- but I read this element in more a scumleaning way than a townleaning way.
* People have EVERY RIGHT to dismiss a post with the one-word answer "scum." And other people have every right to call them on it later, especially after a flip or two. Call them idiots, but saying they have "no right" just reads like you going, "fine, I'm scum, BUT I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU'RE GETTING AWAY WITH THIS STUPID SHORTCUT! YOU DIDN'T DO IT THE RIGHT WAY!"

[Purple Orange]

There are four scum teams in the game, but apparently changing your vote from someone you are pretty sure is scum to someone that is most likely scum because there's momentum towards the 'most likely' scum wagon is somehow scummy. I'd say it's a blatant false case, but oddly it's the sort of argument I most often see from townies.

You're right, and I'll drop this insofar as it goes. I don't, or at least shouldn't, have a problem with people switching to another wagon they also think is scummy.

Influencing my judgment on this is the fact that all

I

see from BS/kcda at that point are "mountains of stupidity." Why the heck would you abandon a case on someone you apparently thought was awesomely scummy enough to go on for two frikkin pages yelling at him that he was scum, to jump on a weak case like BS/kcda? Something wasn't right, something didn't compute there, and, yeah, I read something there as insincere. Dislike the "maybe he's awful town" dropped in the middle of things, because it conflicts with everything else you'd vehemently said and maintained about him, both before and after.

You made a crud case, whose only real notable element is that it's over-the-top in-your-face aggressive, after you got called out for doing not much of anything. Color me suspicious.

I find it unlikely because BOTH of their play has been dramatically anti-town, because both of them have contributed jack, and because if I read the ISO of

either one

I just start thinking "scum, scum, scum..."

Pushing and clarifying the "Reck or Kise is lying" case is jack? Seriously - bulletpoint/quote/whatever summary of all the scummy things Umbrage has done, sans hyperbole. Because your initial case was shit. If your reason for going after them is gut...well, great, yay gut? Mine admittedly tends to suck.

EBWOP: ...ok, I'll give you that 491 is scummy.

[Purple Orange]

kcda's most recent posts read like a kid with his hand stuck in the cookie jar. "Sorry mommy, it was an accident, I just slipped and the lid was loose and my hand happened to be there. I promise I won't do it again!" Baby Spice's most recent post was... garbage. I don't know what else to call it.

Baby Spice's latest post was completely dreadful. Not one good point in the whole thing, and the vote on you in it was made for 99% bad reasons. Like...wow. Was it

scummy

awful, though?

kcda's latest post WAS scummy. Not for the zomg apology, but for the "I'll try to do a good job for the sake of the town" bit.

[Purple Orange]

If the town is stupid enough to believe you, then I'll be happy to be lynched.

I don't think town is that stupid, though.

Oh wait, maybe they are:

No… no, it doesn't. And even if it did have to be one of us, your reasons for voting me over Kise are, quite frankly, bullshit. So you're either really bad at being town or really bad at being mafia, I just can't figure out which.

Excellent argument there. My reasons are bullshit, eh? Can't argue with that. And of course you're not biased in any way. No sir.

Why are you using the guy you just accused of being scum as an example of poor

town

play?

[Purple Orange]

Okay. This is the motherfucking textbook definition of "trying to appear helpful in order to appear town".

Unvote; Vote: Kcdapost

I implore you all to do so as well.

So it's perfectly fine when GreyICE initiates it and does it the whole damn game, but scummy enough to vote over when kcda does it?

And here we go again.

Vote: GreyICE

Grey/Anti are scum because Grey (sans the initial Reck attack) played quite passively until being called out on it, because his case when he finally made one was overaggressive compensating crud, because he refused to make a good case when asked, and because the signal to noise ratio in his posts is utterly abysmal. And because I'm using meta, so shoot me. This is not the GreyICE I read in several other games, when I was trying to get a handle on him before.

(If you guys are actually town...seriously, what the HELL is going on?)
(And in either case, Grey: WHY were/are kcda's posts scummy? WHY were/are BS's?)

I dunno where the heck Espy's got to, but if he doesn't get back here, I'll pull together myself what I think he was going to say. I think it was probably just some of the above with supporting quotes, though.

=============

Emp/Thingy and Kise/partner = townreads

Currently not seeing anything scummier from llama/darla than I've seen from anyone else.

Stupidity is not a scumtell.

I rarely pay attention to posts that don't mention me/aren't directed at me, of course I'm going to wind up attacking people who attack me more often than others.

...

How the heck is that town play?

[Purple Orange]

The one thing that bothers me in the post? And that means you now get to play Q&A with me?

Stupidity is not a scumtell.

See, here's the funny thing. I read kcda as inexperienced and young. But he's not at all stupid. I can read the difference, and if that's not enough, several posters in this thread have demonstrated the difference between the former and the latter. And here's the funny part. I know you well enough to know that you can read the difference too.

So why did you post that statement?

Poor choice of words, mostly. "Playing awfully" might be a bit better? Was using it as a catch-all word for a lot of the things people seem to be building cases over lately; I see lynches proposed and jumped on because of poor play, but little attempt to connect the poor play to scum motivation. Posts are "scummy" and "scumtastic," and half the time it seems to mean "cuss-filled" or "annoying" or "reading comprehension FAIL" or "lurking as badly as 3/4 of the other people in this game."

Like, this, for instance:

Lover talked me in to it... and then I saw ^^that.

.... no... umbrage is getting too mad... I'm not having this not in this game...

Or this:

I'm about *this* close to just slapping my vote back on KCDA and leaving it there until he gets lynched, because he's fucking terrible.

Or this:

He's accusing Reck for blowing something he CLEARLY HAS NOT READ CAREFULLY out of proportion.
There is no way a townie would consider voting someone based on attitude toward situation X without bothering to read situation X carefully enough to decide what attitudes are reasonable.

Llamarble needs to get out more. Lord knows I WANTED to vote for kcda yesterday over this, but I couldn't make myself do it, having recently seen town do JUST THAT.

[Purple Orange]

@ kcdaspot:

Read Kise's ISO.

Was this "read" as in "you guys need to go read Kise's ISO," or "read" as in, "I just read (past tense) Kise's ISO"?

For some reason Haylen and silva, and Dram and wererwolf stick out in my mind....

Why did they stick in your mind then? You mention dram and wolf later; do Haylen and silva still stand out to you?

don't know if I like dram's/werewolf's contributions as of late.

What don't you like about dram/wolf recently?

==========================

@vezok:

I still think Kise is gambiting scum.

Do you still think this? Why/why not?

[Purple Orange]

@ silavor:

What happened inbetween these:

Meanwhile, it's entirely possible that Kise thought he was remembering a conversation he'd had with Reck, when it was really a conversation with someone else. I'd like to hear Kise's side before passing any judgement.

Then, of course, you leap straight off Haylen and on to Kise for what could very well be a total misunderstanding. Or it could be a blatant lie and Kise is totally scum, I really don't know, but I don't want to jump to conclusions about Kise just yet.

And this?

One of you is lying, and unlike you I'm not totally convinced you're the innocent one.

What is your position now?

[Purple Orange]

Err...so you don't see any incompatablity between the statements "it could very well be a total misunderstanding, or it could be a blatant lie, or whatever" and "one of you is lying"? Either it's a misunderstanding, meaning NO ONE IS LYING, or one of the two is lying. You leave the "misunderstanding" possibility open in the first two, and then completely abandon it in the third, joining the ranks of the diehard "one of them has to be lying" people, as far as I can tell.

[Purple Orange]

PO:
Did you read the context of what was happening in-thread between those 2 posts of silavor’s- which silavor even quoted when he said that?

Then, of course, you leap straight off Haylen and on to Kise for what could very well be a total misunderstanding.

OH MY GOD IT'S LIKE DRMYSHOTTYIZSIK GAINED A VOCABULARY BUT RETAINED HIS IQ
Read what I fucking said above about Kise. His entire goddamn case on me is built on this strong idea that he knew, BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, that I

knew

the setup. That's a pretty DAMN STRONG PIECE OF EVIDENCE to be 'misremembering'. It's not even a misunderstanding - WE NEVER SPOKE ABOUT THE GAME PERIOD.

One of you is lying, and unlike you I'm not totally convinced you're the innocent one. Screaming at me isn't going to help.

That’s literally “what happened” between those posts. Reckoner stated that a misunderstanding was impossible.

Which says the same thing Reck had been saying from the start of the argument. Was that post especially persuasive for some reason? Did silavor just not "get" the issue until then? (Plus he's back to saying misunderstanding is a possibility, given his town v. town comment).

Now, do you see any similar incompatibility with Reckoner going “Kise must be lying because it can’t possibly be a misunderstanding” -> “It has to be a misunderstanding and anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron etc”?

Considering Reck knee-jerk reacted, then took a day or three to reconsider the issue, not really. Both he AND Kise said "maybe it was just a misunderstanding" and dropped the matter as the basis of any accusations; what I see Reck mostly upset at is the fact people aren't dropping the matter on the say-so of the two players actually involved. (cf his ISO 58)

[Purple Orange]

We're completely missing people in the Haylen and Snake slots, too, with no sign of replacements.

Also,

Unvote

(ISOs, last 4 pages, arguing with Espy. If anyone's dying for more explanation I can give it.)

=============

Dram, could you please point out to me where I said reck was scummy?

Because dram has been taking too long to do this, and Reck seems to be under the misconception that you never said it:

Are you really that desperate for a lynch?

The point is, every one of your cases so far is based on a single piece of misinterpreted garbage, with the exception of Emp where you were just bandwagoning.

I see nothing town about any of that.

Oh don't get me wrong, I've looked at your cases with impartial bias (well, except for Haylen's, because I already know she's town).

Then I found you scummy for making them in the first place. Obviously I'm trying to show them as "why are you so desperate for a lynch," because being "desperate for a lynch" is synonymous with "being scum."

You thought he was scummy and you said so. Which...uh...is fine and dandy and understandable, so I don't see the point in hairsplitting and saying you didn't.

[Purple Orange]

I took out the part about vezok... I answered questions what are you saying here?

That you didn't do the ISOs and analysis that Baby Spice said you were going to do.

Hey! Look who shows up when his name gets called!

^This.

1. read= past tense.
2. as far as total posts go they were in the middle of the pack. and I have not seen alot of halyen at the point but alot of silva... Silva: are you going to carry your slot by yourself?
3. little to no content. but that's the pot calling the kettle black there... so i'll let that go as is... lest i see something different.

should have something up by 3 pm here.

1. I don't think you did.
2. ...does that have anything to do with them possibly being scum? Plus an utterly meaningless question tacked on.
3. easy target, about the safest thing in the world to say. And "this guy isn't posting much"= the one thing someone who doesn't even try to read the thread but still needs to look like they're posting content can say.


There's not been an attempt at scumhunting from you in ages. After you backed off Reck, those were the only positions of yours I found to actually ASK you about. They're so vague its laughable, and it looks like the first one wasn't even a position, just commentary of posting frequency.


Your lover hasn't been doing much better recently.

Sorry for being absentia.

Life and such.

Prod avoiding post on the 13th, last real content was on the 10th.



Have been trying to hold off judgment on some stuff until Pray and Nero posted again as well (and add snake's replacement to the list). And the earlier timing of his understanding of the thread correlating only with BS's presence still gives me a hell of a lot of pause. (It's null now, because if he's scum, they'll try to keep the pattern). But, ack. Zero scumhunting (combined with several attempts to LOOK like he's contributing), and his ISO 19.

Vote: kcdaspot

[Purple Orange]

Baby Spice, I want to say that you're right and you're town. I really, really, do. But kcdaspot has been setting off every one of the alarm bells in my head. I want to grill Llamarble/DBE, but you SNEEZE wrong and kcda gets scum everywhere.

You can't do both?

Maryita - Tragedy. "Lets lynch the lurker, but not the guy who hasn't posted in over a week" (There's more. Can't be bothered)

Be bothered. Remove your damn self-vote and start playing.

I have been holding out on kcdaspot for who knows how long. And I'm still going against my gut HARD to vote for you two, but EVERY DAMN THING KCDASPOT HAS BEEN DOING can be divided into apathetic-null and apathetic-scummy. You were something of a saving grace to him for a while, then

you

dropped off and were content to just sit and not scumhunt after giving an initial case. And kcda's posts and entrance today?? At some point I have to go "ok, I'm probably tunneling town on these guys." There's some pairs I'll die on a hill over today, but you guys aren't one of them, and kcda's most recent posts make it a hell of a lot more likely you're scum.

[Purple Orange]

@ Tragedy:

what do you think of werewolf's play?

@ Nero and PrayP

: POST SOMETHING. Are we going to have to start a wagon on you guys to get you to post as well?

[Purple Orange]

Now, do you see any similar incompatibility with Reckoner going “Kise must be lying because it can’t possibly be a misunderstanding” -> “It has to be a misunderstanding and anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron etc”?

And if you have a sequence of events that clarifies how everyone involved in this is innocent, I'd love to hear it. Until I hear an alternate explanation, I'm not going to dismiss the explanation I know would explain things: that someone involved is guilty.

I've thought a lot about this the past day or two. :/ Because backing down once it was evident that people were willing to accept an "it was all a misunderstanding" explanation

would

be a decently pragmatic move for scum versions of either of them.

The tl;dr version is that it comes down to whether you think Reck would call his friend an out-of-game liar to get ahead in this game. I've done some damn underhanded appeals to emotion as scum before, but I don't think I'd be able to do something as baldfacedly evil, with such possibly severe repercussions, as that. Yes, Reck had a lot of scum motivation to say what he did. But I'm willing to think it's more probable that Kise actually did talk with someone else, or even that Kise dreamed the whole damn thing, before I think Reck would slander a friend like that over a stupid game.

And if Reck's telling the truth about the AIM conversation, he's probably NOT scum. Though given some of the play this game, maybe someone

could

have been on a scumteam and STILL not known there was a nightkill. At this point I'm actually willing to consider the possibility.

With Kise, I see no reason to lie about a conversation. But the fact he had it and talked about it doesn't mean

he's

not scum. So believe Kise is convinced he had the conversation...and that it means jack squat null.

[Purple Orange]

@ Grey - I read a couple of his other games tonight to try to get some baseline read on him. And I seriously do not know how the heck to evaluate him. I'm thinking I may just have to ignore him like I do werewolf, and go by Baby Spice. Who HAS played quite town.

He managed to contribute more content and reads in those games than he's done here (think of him combined with vezok? with an occasional longer post thrown in), but I don't know whether to chalk up the difference to him being scum this round, or him shutting down because we were really hard on him.

[Purple Orange]

hm I want to think about [733], but not for that reason.

If there's blind spots in my thought process anywhere I'd really like to know. :/ Nero is a weaker link, but even there I think the "slandering a friend out of game" thing still applies.

[Purple Orange]

WELCOME THE HELL BACK ESPY.

Unvote

. Gut says town. Espy says "naw, you aren't insane." So at least I'll have company in the crazyhouse.

Vote: Mariyta

/sheeps lover

[Purple Orange]

Update: Kcdaspot is no longer being replaced.

WUT

VOTE: KCDASPOT

And the fact he's staying makes a difference...why? Do you think it's because he's getting additional help? DO NOT UNDERSTAND.

Discussing the reck/kise thing isn't gonna get us anywhere. I kinda thought we had come to a collective agreement about that.

Only because we lynched one of the pairs that was discussing it, and everyone is trying to shut up the other one by yelling louder than him. I thought I could ignore the whole thing, but found I unfortunately

can't

, because it is inextricably linked to Reck's alignment. Feel free to ignore any posts on the matter you want, but there's things I want to talk to Emp about.

Look, guys, I think after playing on mafiascum for nearly 2 years, I deserve to have a chance to chill out. So, I wanna post minimally... at least until I feel better.

Any thoughts on when you might be back? :/ My read on you guys has gone haywire, and the dearth of posts from your two slots hasn't helped pin it down.

[Purple Orange]

I love how you come after me when there are a shit-ton of people who have participated much less than me. Scumalicious. Oh, hey, look. Here comes his scumbuddy hopping on the wagon. Fun times. Alright. Let's do this. I've had a mild "gut" feeling about these two for awhile now, and since they want to play, I'm gonna play.

VOTE: Espyongaeagdlj

Kcda is probably just lazy. Llamarble/Darla are likely scum. And I'm thinking one of our replacements is probably scum, too.

And now

you

agree with us kcda detractors too?

And yes, come out and play. Right now you're one of the pairs I've got no problem lynching today...unlike kcda/BS, who I'm having a hell of a lot of problems convincing myself to lynch. I was going to go with silavor/haylen last night, but Espy decided to finally show up after going AWOL on me for two days, and I'm down with his pick.

You guys were null to me day 1, and scummy day 2. Given that dagnabbit I think kcda/BS is probably town, and given how hard I'm finding it to come up with solid scumreads on ANYONE in this game, you win. Blame process of elimination.

On that note:
silavor/Haylen - Haylen had a scummy post or two; silavor is null. Fine with lynching.
kise/PP - null. lurky. Fine with lynching.
darla/llama - null. And where is Darla?? Fine with lynching.
dram/wolf - null. wolf has given fewer reads and less content that he did in the one other game I played with him, when he was town. Fine with lynching.

[Purple Orange]

@PO: But lynching werewolf involves lynching drammie

But lynching drammie means we get a more certain read on YOUR alignment.

Didn't I already do that?

No, you just did the intro post. Still think that's a stupid case.

===========

PO-
Care to show me where Haylen was scummy, aside from her

joking

intro post?

It's her post #10 in the context of what preceded it.

Ignoring the @mod posts:
1 no content, no positions
2 no content, no positions
3 defensive

6 misses the point of the Reck/Kise debate
7 misses it again
8-9 a "hi I'm here" post

10 No positions and content all thread...and WHAT THE HELL KIND OF VOTE IS THIS?

Vote Q51 for reasons other people have stated. There's definately not something right there and I could get behind his lynch today.

11-12 replaces out

It's not much. But, again, scumreads have been hard to come by this thread.


Ummmm...and apparently I need to run a chronology of this thread again. Dammit, silavor. If you're scum, I have a darn good idea who your scumbuddies are, and I am not happy.

[Purple Orange]

ITT Kcdaspot has to get Baby Spice to confirm his cases so he doesn't look even scummier

Town lovers wouldn't do that
Scum lovers, however, would

And don't you just love how Baby Spice jumped on the first wagon to pop up?

I'm loving every bit of this fallout. <3

And are you agreeing with Reck's point?

[Purple Orange]

I don't think it was a scumslip. I think it's just him going with the tighter and snappier version of a putdown comeback.

Compare: "I don't have to agree with my wife, and neither do you" vs. "I don't have to agree with my wife, and you don't have to agree with your lover." Which has more zing to it?

[Purple Orange]

Either that, or the RL example was so strong in his mind it just carried over and overwrote ingame terminology. He still might be scum, but I don't think role PMs had anything to do with this. :/

[Purple Orange]

@Mod: err...can we get a replacement for the Haylen slot quickly? Thingyman would be nice too.

@ Emp:

why are you reading spice/kcda and mariyta/tragedy as town?

Kcdspice actually look a bit less scummy now that Kcdtown appears capable of "Reck is scummy for opinion on X" without bothering to read X.

...what? I'm confused. Is this a meta argument?

[Purple Orange]

I'm loving every bit of this fallout. <3

And are you agreeing with Reck's point?

Of course. Baby Spice took the reprieve given to her partner and jumped on the first wagon to form. I haven't had a read on her to this point, but her recent play is deliciously scumalicious.

Certainly agree the vote looks opportunistic.

Do you agree with Reck that they also look scummy because kcda wants Baby Spice to look over his posts? *tries to phrase question more clearly*

ITT Kcdaspot has to get Baby Spice to confirm his cases so he doesn't look even scummier

Town lovers wouldn't do that
Scum lovers, however, would

[Purple Orange]

@ kcda - where is your case? Or did BS veto it?

@ mariyta - do you even attempt consistency?

@ Emp and silavor - I was wrong; there's a decently plausible way for Reck (and Nero) to be telling the truth about the IM stuff, and still be scum.

@ dram - um...yes. That was kind of the point. Scumreads have been hard to come by, and I've started going with process of elimination. Townread beats nullread.

=========

@ everyone else: where the heck ARE you? This is going nowhere fast. Nowhere slowly, either, for that matter. I was hoping we wouldn't need to resort to a damn consensus lynch and flip just to keep things moving, but maybe I was wrong.

Here. Here is what I am OK doing today. (If anyone wants more detailed reasons for any of these I will be happy to give them). What are you all OK doing?

PEOPLE I DO NOT WANT TO LYNCH TODAY
emp/thingy
vezok/misty
grey/anti

PEOPLE I AM FINE LYNCHING TODAY
Kise/PP
llama/darla
dram/werewolf
mariyta/traj
silv/haylen

PEOPLE I DO NOT WANT TO LYNCH BUT CAN RESIGN MYSELF TO LYNCHING SO THIS DARN GAME CAN MOVE FORWARD
kcda/spice
reck/nero

[Purple Orange]

Mari/Trag aren't lurkers, though. What's the cliffsnotes reasoning for them?

I gave you some links, too. I think they all go to the right place. :/

* Join both the kcda and umbrage wagons yesterday. (At 3/(traj stays off but maryita mentions agreement votes) and 8/9 votes, respectively. I think. sensfan has not been giving enough votecounts ).

* The Umbrage/q21 wagon. Even though they're giving reasons for their cases, like I'd been yelling at people to do, I find most of their reasons curd, and I feel like they're searching for a plausible excuse to hop on the Umbrage wagon. The first bit (reasons are crud) I can objectively argue about. The last bit (that they're searching for a reason to get on the wagon) I can't, but it's there every time I read it.

* Mariyta's positions on kcdaspice. Voting for them D1, to giving the benefit of the doubt Day 2, to jumping on them as soon as Ice says "let's lynch some lurkers!", and back to "kcda's just lazy" after a couple people have expressed reservations about the wagon. And now back to "oh they're scum, we should kill them." (The latest switchback I actually find understandable, however).

* Mariyta echoing any accusation that's brought up against people she's decided she wants to get lynched, even if there's evident inconsistencies with her previous positions. Like, say, "it would be good if kcda ran his stuff past BS, so that we don't do a mislynch over bad play," which turns into "a supporting reason that kcdaspice are scum is because kcda wants to run his stuff past BS" right after Reck says it's a reason they're scum. Or "oooh, I like this lurker lynch thing!" which turns into "oooh! trying to lynch lurkers is scummy!" right after Reck/Anti says it's a reason Espy/me are possibly scum.

* And on the lurker/easy target thing, since Mariyta wants to make a big deal about it: aside from Umbrage/q21, who that they only jumped on when the guys were buried under a mountain of votes, Mariyta/Traj's punching bags have been llama/darla and kcda/spice. And Mariyta risks coming after Espy/me, who she says she's had suspicion on (but never mentioned till now), only when she has nothing to lose. Because we already voted for them.

I admit I wasn't too sold on Espy's pick at first...he had a way scummier Day 1 read on them than me. But given the reaction to the pressure, I'd say he made a darn good call.

[Purple Orange]

So basically the people you want to lynch are the lurkers? Seriously?

Yeah, I agree. That's pretty weak.

I haven't said this before but what I would think (and just like Emp) is that the scum want to line up as many lynches as possible due to it only taking 2 lynches of their team to wipe them out. But still... you just listed 7 pairs you would lynch. It's pretty horrible if you don't narrow the list down

based on your OWN reads

.

Did you miss those pairs the first time I listed them or something?

It's an attempted solution (probably quite poorly presented) to the "damn, scumreads are hard to find this game (and I can't get them lynched when I do have them)" problem that several people seem to be running into. We've seen DBE/llama lynch, a kcda/spice lynch, and very possibly this mariyta/traj lynch stall out. Scumhunting itself stalls for days at a time, and no one does anything -- maybe because they have nothing new to bring to the table? How do you break out of that?

Should an utter stalemate happen (again), because no one can get their favorite pairs lynched, and scumhunting stalls out,

those pairs are the ones I'm currently OK seeing lynched

, based on my last read of the thread. I have my preferred lynches out of those...LOOK AT WHERE MY VOTE IS, dammit. Look at where I've said I'd like to go for silv/haylen. But I'm not sure how picky I can afford to be. Sometimes a damn flip needs to happen before the game can actually move again. Think of it like a triage ranking or something.

Though it looks like that scenario has been staved off for now, which is by far my preferred solution.

[Purple Orange]

@PO: You want to lynch me because I don't have a whole lot of activity in the thread? Or do you actually have any form of reasoning that isn't policy?

No, actually. You post good content when you show up. I like you. I'd be sad to lose you.

It's your lover that makes me OK with killing you. I played with town-wolf in one of my first games here. He didn't post much, and he made a terse and bad case or two. But they made a crazy kind of coherent sense in his own mind, and golly he at least made them and took positions. (I supported his lynch because I thought he was overeager newb scum). This game? Well...maybe his ISO 6 counts??

I'm not entirely sure how to evaluate this. But you I read as a good poster who's null. Wolf I have as possible scum. So you made the list. :/ I don't think you're a terribly good lynch. But it's one I'm OK with.

============

Lol PO now wants to lynch me lollolo. If that entire lynch-list is made up of minimalist posters, I'm tunneling on PO. I haven't said this before but what I would think (and just like Emp) is that the scum want to line up as many lynches as possible due to it only taking 2 lynches of their team to wipe them out. But still... you just listed 7 pairs you would lynch. It's pretty horrible if you don't narrow the list down

based on your OWN reads

.

I've been OK lynching you as of a couple days ago, when I reread you as null instead of town. And when I hit a mafia discussion post talking about how you take notes as town, and act more on the fly and opportunistically as scum. (The fact you say you're not paying as much attention to this game as you usually do, though, I think skews pretty much anything I might be able to draw from that). I'd almost welcome you tunneling on me, because I might be able to get a better read on you. And why is PP taking two weeks to read and comment on this game??

In terms of lining up lynches, where does your "Reck-Nero-PO-Espy orgy" you've been pushing since the beginning of the game fall?

Why isn't Emp an option for you today?

Because I think he's town? He's being damnedly contrary, he's taking initiative and acting vs. reacting, and he's willing to rock boats and make people pull their hair out because of stuff he believes is right. (Also, Thingy read town when he was here). There's a scenario or two in which I think Emp could be scum, but I'm not willing to go there unless other flips start indicating that possibility.

[Purple Orange]

PO:
Why are Grey/Antihero on your "don't want to lynch today" list?

* Day 2 Grey = a Grey I recognize.

* Kinder interpretation of Grey vs. Umbrage. I see why Grey went stupid-crazy on Umbrage's ass.

* Grey/Anti did more to keep things moving and cause people to post today than practically anyone else. This leans me to a town interpretation. I'm with llama that smashing things up (and potentially drawing negative attention to oneself in the process) is more town than not. You seem to think the scum are this organized force of doom trying to dominate the thread. I'm of the opinion that the scum are likely playing it safe and going with the flow.

Grey got crazy aggressive after being called out for (comparative) passiveness. Grey acts more like himself after I say he's not acting like himself. Unrelated coincidence or not, this naggles me, so IGMEOY and all that rot. But they're really the only things I have against the pair of them right now, when all's said and done. They're being townie enough to outweigh that. They're getting reactions out of people. I don't want them dead at this point.

@ Emp and silavor - I was wrong; there's a decently plausible way for Reck (and Nero) to be telling the truth about the IM stuff, and still be scum.

Not sure what you mean here? I mean, sure, but I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.
I think there are people arguing that whether they told the truth has no relevance.
And there are people (well, me) arguing that someone is lying.

I'd said it in 733 ("if Reck's telling the truth about the AIM conversation, he's probably NOT scum...however, blah blah sorta implausible theory about scum still managing to think there was a nightkill") and 779 ("I can't dismiss the matter because the IM conversation is inextricably linked to Reck's alignment"). Have changed my views on this matter, and wanted to make a note of that. (Nothing says Reck couldn't have looked at the role PMs/setup after the point at which Kise said this conversation happened. And saying, "I never looked at the role PMs/setup" is an understandable lie, unlike "liar, I never had that conversation you say we had.")

[Purple Orange]

Except for this part. I've suspected Llamarble since the beginning and it has nothing to do with lurking. I've posted cases on him. Go read them. As for voting you/Esp, I've already answered that. No, I haven't gone to find the post(s) that I didn't like because I haven't had time. I hope to do it today.

I have. Disagree with your interp of llama's first posts, but they did safely sheep kcda yesterday. Agree that llama's posts the other day were about his first proactive bit of anything (though I think he brought up a new point or two against me and Espy way back when).

And I know you've been at their throats since the beginning...congrats on the consistency. But can you make up your mind about DBE/Llama? Are they easy targets/lurkers or aren't they? I'd put them, meh, midrange, but as you ranked them with the lurkers/easy targets I figured I'd take you at your word.

I believe you when you say you've had a scummish read on us for a while, and that you need a bit of time to pull a case together. What I was pointing out was that you've gone after targets YOU rank as "easy" the whole game (well, ok,

I

ranked a piled Umbrage as easy), until maybe just now when you took a swipe at me/Espy. Right after we voted for you and you had nothing to lose, because we were already attacking you and drawing attention to you.

As scum, you want to take out town, and it's easier to do that if you go after targets that won't fight back as hard. The three I listed would rip them a new one. (I have my doubts about the sure townieness of one of those teams, but I haven't decided if it's a valid doubt yet, so I'll refrain from arguing that point.)

I even forgot to throw vezok on that earlier list of your targets.

Have you actually been watching Grey/Anti? They stubbornly refused to rip me anything. They rolled their eyes and ignored me and did townie stuff and told me to do my homework, until I had to go, "yeeeeeah...they're still possibly scum based on these two particular juxtapositions of events, but even in the midst of weak cases, that's a

really

weak case, and there's a lot pointing the other way. Dammit, for now they're town."

I dunno what Reck would do, though he's been flipping out on anyone that's called him scum. Will probably find out in the near future.

[Purple Orange]

In terms of lining up lynches, where does your "Reck-Nero-PO-Espy orgy" you've been pushing since the beginning of the game fall?

Well, dear, it's only proper to want to lynch 4 players that you feel share a scum QT. As opposed to, you know, your 14 player lynch-list.

So it was the "if one's innocent the other is guilty" deal that that bothered you? And...um...the sheer numbers of mine?

If the majority of players are inactive, then the majority are obviously town. I have fallen into the inactive category so my

current

line of thinking is that townies are somewhere in the 90's% range of those other inactives... if not 100%.

So...minority action = mafia? "I'm doing this and I'm town, therefore everyone who acts like me is town?" What kind of reasoning is THAT?

I mean, mine might not be much better, but it's more along the lines of: The mafia will be trying to blend in with the town. They try to do what the majority of the town is doing, or they'll stand out and get noticed and die. When town's active, they need to be active, even though lurking is usually more in their interests. When the town is coasting along doing nothing...golly, guess what? They can go coast along doing nothing, draw no attention to themselves, and blend right in, and survive.

Are you saying that because they're in a 4-person QT, they'll have more motivation to stick around, and thus will be less likely to go completely inactive and replace out?

That

I can understand, and may have to think about.

Purp, I'm not sure how long you've consistently played mafia, but I know better that lurkers and people who barely contribute (or fail to contribute completely: werewolf) are NOT always scum. It's a matter of you actually attempting to figure out why each player would do certain actions as both town and scum, then take note of it, then weigh which of the two viewpoints reads stronger compared with interactions of other players - This, instead of lynching minimal players in lazy fashion.

Of course I know that. You guys are the ones putting words in my mouth saying that I'm going after people

because they're lurking

. PP is the only person I said I'd be willing to lynch for his lurking, and that was because of the insane lengths of it....which I think scum would be more likely to do than town, if they were happily not under suspicion.

When someone posts fewer posts, it often makes it harder for me to read them, though I've tried my best. And again, I'm also currently of the "scum are probably lazy and going with the flow" school of thought, not the "scum are acting as an organized force of doom" school of thought. Any correlation between lurkiness and people I'm ok lynching will be based on those factors. If it looks like conscious and deliberate lurker hunting, fine, it looks like conscious and deliberate lurker hunting. There's not much I can do about that.

[Purple Orange]

What do you mean "one's innocent the other's guilty?" I does not compute, but if this is an attempt to confuse/frustrate me, it's not working.

The fact that the way they lined up lynches wasn't by saying, "if pair A flips scum, pair B is scum," but by saying "if pair A flips

town

, pair B is scum."

Mine. Rather than dispel me from my line of thought, why not ask how I'd reevaluate things if my suspects flipped town? 'Course you wouldn't ask such a thing.

Err...because right now none of ours have flipped anything, so all I can do is try to have you reconsider and reshuffle your mafia assignments while the cards are all still face down. And because I wanted you to talk more about your line of thought, because that part of it made no sense to me at all.

There's no cops, so mafia can draw as much attention to themselves as they want. And if this is how mafia is playing according to you, then who are the scum that are blending in?

The more you talk, the more you have a chance to say something that's scummy and entangle yourselves with your scumbuddies. The more you talk, the more attention and by implication scrutiny you draw to yourself. And there's the majority/minority thing -- the more you look different from other people, the more likely you are to be associated with the minority group of the game, aka the mafia. The last one is something I've seen happen time and again, usually on a more unconscious level, because consciously it doesn't make sense.

Um...how about the people I'm voting for, for one? silavor/haylen are another decent bet. The rest? I don't know. A lot is up in the ether until we get another flip or two. It's been more useful to me as a way to knock people onto a probably-town list than to confirm scum.

What led you to think scum are lazy, again?

The fact that pretty much everyone seems to be lazy this round? And that it's more pragmatic for the scum to post less and go with the flow.

[Purple Orange]

PO:
But that's not what Grey's been doing today. He's been doing the opposite. See my [742].

Not sure how long he's held the "it's better to go after one scummy person and get a lynch, than to go after a bunch at once." But the answer he gave me I think fits his actions today.

Still thinking about this. But when I look at the day, I see the "ok, if no one's going to bother, let's lynch a lurker" as a catalyst for a hell of a lot of stuff, and it fits with his willingness to lynch kcda from the start of the day. There's also the back and forth with dram, and Anti's contributions.

[Purple Orange]

Well, given my awesome gutread skillz, which now stand at something like 0 for 7...Grey/Anti, Emp/thingy, and vezok/whoever are obviously the final scumpairs?

I see the argument...it's just that if Emp is scum, I think he's darn organized and on top of it scum. Like he seems to think the scum teams are. And he's about the LAST person I can see letting kcda flounder around so badly. Plus it's hard reversing my top townread from yesterday.

So...yeah.

vote: silavor

First, because the case is decent enough on its own merits; the team has done nothing proactive for the whole thread. Coasting, echoing popular trends, and defensiveness. silavor says that even the exchange with reck was just an outgrowth of him defending Haylen.

Secondly...links to kcda/Spice. Not the Baby Spice lover thing...people are right that Haylen talked about it in the signup thread. It's the fact that kcda's variety of confusion about the Reck/Kise matter ("it's just a stupid personal issue and personal issues should be kept out of the game") parallels Haylen's, and quite closely. Compare Haylen's ISO 6 and 7 with kcdaspot's ISOs 9, 10, 12, 16, 17. It's a distinctive parallel; they're the only players to exhibit this flavor of opinion.

The main reason I dismissed a kcda/BS/silavor/haylen theory TWICE yesterday, after seeing this, was because silavor had a head on his shoulders and seemed to grasp things, and I thought he would have stepped in to help kcda by the time kcda got around to posting about the matter. That...evidently didn't happen, though.

[Purple Orange]

Yeah, I think you're trying to confuse me. Who are

they

? We're only talking about you and me here.

They = Emp/Thingy. Whom you called scum for trying to line up a lynch of the "If Reck flips town, Kise is scum" variety.

No need to reshuffle when I need to get my suspects flipped over like flapjacks. I'm thinking you're fighting to get me to change my opinion hard; calling it nonsensical and the likes. I gave you a chance by saying I only think about 90% of the inactive players were town, but that's not good enough to accept, eh.

Of course I want you to change your opinion if your opinion is wrong. I'd rather have scum flapjacks today over town flapjacks. Can at least see where you're coming from now, though, and it's not as nonsensical as your first post made it sound to me. (How are you defining "inactive"?)

========

I'd say if somebody bussed it was most likely weredram (defended KCD d1 & didn't Reck mention something about Dram loving to bus?) or Kise (late on waggy).
And I need to think about who I think the other team is.

Reck said dram likes to bus right out of the gate. So if dram defended kcdaspice day 1, they probably aren't teamed scum.

=========

P.S. If we flip their scumpartner, you're not the scumpartner anymore, and then you're town!

Um...

[Purple Orange]

Two biggest scumpairs:

kcd/BS and umbridge/q21

But he failed to vote um/21 when the wagon was up and instead sat on KCD but when Kcd/BS wagon was getting votes he instead started a counter wagon on Mari.

So that looks like distancing to me.

@ Nero: Espy went after kcda right out of the starting gate. He later unvoted kcda on Feb 6, the day after posting what you quoted above. And the day after

that

(Feb 7), we both went over to Grey/Anti, where we then hung out (or went voteless) until going after Mariyta/Traj. (I did a wobbly stint on kcda from Feb 15 to 17th, between my Grey and Mari votes). Make of our actions what you will...at least get the basic facts and chronology correct, though.

=====

@ Tragedy: That last quote of Espy's is him talking about Reck's case on Haylen. It's not about you/Mari or kcdaspice. So not sure what you're trying to say with it.

[Purple Orange]

I do indeed know that. But why would he suddenly go contradict himself?

I'm confused as to where you're seeing contradiction.

[Purple Orange]

but Haylen mentioning the BS joke actually makes me think she's less likely the culprit.

...damn, you're right.

Still think the other stuff outweighs it...willing to chalk this up to momentum of the signup thread joke carrying through, or actual forgetting. But, graaaaah. It does make it less locktight.

Ugh, he's almost certainly town.

Scumslips like this just never really seem to come from scum

From scum who just got back from a longish V/LA, making a frustrated post...I actually can see it. I doubt he consciously thought BS was his lover. But I do think a BS connection was strong enough in his mind for him to slip and use her over Haylen, and I don't think that our talk about BS in the thread itself was the (only) reason it was this strong in his mind.

Welp, folks, anyone have a good feeling about our friend Silvador anyway?

Vote: Silvador

He almost got lynched yesterday anyway.

We have one who had a halfway decent wagon run up against them,

Um...no he didn't? Where are you getting this? I think Reck might have voted for him once, but otherwise, it's been pretty much me, myself, and I voting for the guy until today.

The other people I find town for now. Even GreyICE.

Why do you find Grey Ice town now?

[Purple Orange]

Reckoner:
When I just reevaluated after rereading all 40+ pages. I still have issues with the AIMlog matter, I'll admit. But my main point of contention was my general point about how your playstyle was hampering the town's ability to lynch an antitown. And that just got shown to be demonstrably false. I don't see how you can be mafia, and I have a lot higher suspects for werewolf.

Err...so you don't think one of them HAS to be lying anymore? That's a pretty big switch of opinion for you. What changed your mind here?

[Purple Orange]

The forum ate my post.

No, apparently I didn't save it. There goes 2 or 3 pages worth of analysis!

Usually if I hit the "back" button enough times I can find stuff I've lost. If the forum auto-logged you out, logging again in a new tab, then hitting "back" in the old one, often works. (I think only if you've previewed the post at least one, though). Though your browser might hate you more than mine does me.

[Purple Orange]

Um...Traj? Not a fan of how you have all the names in reverse order on Day 3. :p

[Purple Orange]

Updated with the new players.

UPDATED LOVER LIST

EmpTyger - Thingyman
GreyICE - Antihero
Llamarble - Ashblade _{(replaced DarlaBlueEyes)}
Kise - PrayPiotr _{(replaced Implosion)}
xRECKONERx - Nero Cain
vezokpiraka - Misty7676 _{(replaced SnakePlissken)}
q21 - Umbrage
Mariyta - Tragedy
Kcdaspot - Baby Spice
Purple Orange - Espeonage
Silavor - Charlie _{(replaced Haylen)}
werewolf555 - dramonic

DAY 3 (in the right order and with all players listed)

Silavor - 11 (Purple Orange, Reck, GreyICE, dramonic, Ashblade, vezokpiraka, Mariyta, Mist7676, Espeonage, EmpTyger, silavor)
Espeonage - 3 (Kise, Nero Cain, Tragedy)
Emptyger - 1 (Charlie)

Not Voting - 5 (PrayPiotr, Thingyman, werewolf555, Llamarble, AntiHero)

[Purple Orange]

This thread needs more PrayPiotr and dramonic.

And a replacement for Thingyman, who's been the one gone the longest, and somehow never received one of the replacement players.

Finally went through and nailed this down:

He didn't get a wagon run up against him? I swear I've seen more than two Silavor votes. I know he was on my scumdar just waaayyyy under kcda/bs and q21/Umbrage (who, to be fair, flipped town, but my god I really dislike what they did to this thread).

The only people to ever vote for either of the pair before Day 3 were myself, Reck, q21, dramonic, and llamarble.

Silv/Haylen never had a wagon on them. Theoretically, they had three votes on them at once early during day 1 (between posts 184 and 198), if you combine the votes on Haylen and on silv. But otherwise, they've had a grand total of two at once max. Yesterday, the most they had at once was one. I'll have to go through again and see if anyone even moderately agreed with the suspicion but did NOT vote -- from what I remember, however, most everyone just ignored them.

Do not go by Tragedy's [1117]. The mod's votecounts have not been accurate. I already noted that Kcda wasn't selfvoting, it was Antihero who was voting him. And I know the mod missed one of my votes earlier in the game. I haven't had a chance to fully check.

Sens apparently confused you with Espy, saw double, and removed you from the lineup completely in post 265. (I got distracted and cataloged everything last night. )

Also,

WHY

DON'T YOU THINK ONE OF THEM HAS TO BE LYING ANYMORE? You were ridiculously adamant about this point, and I don't see how Kcdaspice's alignment flip changes any of that.

=====

silavor - DAMMIT, MAN! When you didn't mention the werewolves as having to be found, plus self-hammered, you seriously got my hopes up.

[Purple Orange]

...Holy Moses, he probably is.

Kise, if he flips werewolf-mafia, you win...my interpretation of your system has yelled "lynch vezok, you idiots!" since Day 2. My own train of thought lands me on vezok, but mostly because he looks like the best remaining explanation for the kcda trainwreck. :/ (Well, and his day 3 and 4 posts are...ungood).

[Purple Orange]

Huh. Feel like I'm voting on impalpable theories at the moment, though, so I want to doublecheck to see if it actually pans out. It looks like too easy an answer.

Also - Grey! Why the change of heart on vezok for you?

[Purple Orange]

I had him as town Day 2 because he was providing about 10x the content and definite positions of other comparable lurkers. You have no idea how much of a pleasant surprise it was to read his ISO after slogging through kcda, wolf, and Haylen. I was like, "ZOMG, position! And another position! ZOMG, a bad argument, but it's an argument!" He was the ONLY lurker of that sort who actually seemed to keep some grasp on what was happening in the game and how it was progressing, and be making a substantive comment now and then about it.

I'm mostly going out of theoretical arguments, associative arguments, and some iffy deduction when it comes to him, though, which is why a vote for him feels so darn baseless, even if it isn't.

You've played with him before - does he usually keep up this well in complicated and long games?

[Purple Orange]

Oh, and vezok!

The other people I find town for now. Even GreyICE.

Why do you find Grey Ice town now? What changed your mind?

^This?

[Purple Orange]

@PO: You're using the phrases "vezok" and "keep up well" in the same sentence? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

LOL...I'll take that as a "no, he usually doesn't?"

And I'm actually serious here. Maybe my judgment was irrevocably compromised by reading kcda-werewolf-Haylen first, and I'm trying to reread him today with a fresher set of eyes. But I felt there was a qualitative difference when I got to his posts. He was bothering to keep up. HE GRASPED THE RECK/KISE ISSUE. (Or at least had the sense to echo someone who did). He had this attack on Grey he was trying to do.

[Purple Orange]

@ Misty: What made you change your mind about Mariyta?

@ vezok!!:

What changed your mind about Grey? Why do you think he's town?

I don't think I've mentioned vezok at all. I'll look at the day 1 wagons tonight to see how vezok and mist were placing their votes. Maybe we can lynch him. Obviously, my current choice would be to go back to Esp but you don't want that, Purp.

You haven't. But when I applied an active/interested-people-are-mafia template (though I still don't really know how you're defining "inactive,"), vezok (rather ironically, because he's a lurker-poster) came up the clearest answer, based on his comparative engagement level, posting style, and grasp of the flow of the game. This interpretation means zilch, however, if vezok just ALWAYS plays with the weird combination of lurky consistent engagement that he's shown here. Which...he MIGHT? I'm less sure of this now. :/

[Purple Orange]

No, mostly he plays with lurky total ignorance of everything that's happening. Engagement usually means he has a reason to be engaged, which means he's scum or he got an awesome power role.

But meta is still crap, I'm only using it here because VEZOK ISN'T POSSIBLE TO READ.

Eh, it's useful in determining if something should probably be treated as null. Meta-ing someone in one of my games kept me from mislynching the vig, so I'm not about to toss it out the window. :p If I was looking just at this game, vezok stands out so damn much from the other lurkers (who either show up grudgingly every once in a while, or just plain give up on the thread), that I think it means SOMETHING.

Also agree on Mari/Traj probably not being kcdaspice partners, given Mari's early presence on the kcdaspot wagon on Day 1, when there was a viable alternative wagon.

=======
@ anti: I think the fact dram mixes stuff up and pairs q21/kcda and PO/Traj is actually more an indication he's not scum. :p Or just plain null at worst.
=======

@PO/ESP: Why were you two more interested into lynching Silavor lynch instead of the Q21 or Kcdaspot wagon?
Damn werewolves.

Me? I thought the q21 wagon was an veritable epidemic of crud arguments, and that it was more likely mafia were on it than that q21/Umbrage were mafia. kcdaspice fit the under-the-radar style of play that I thought scum were probably using....but I thought there was JUST NO FRIKKIN' WAY a four-man quicktopic would have let kcda play so darn badly in BS's absense. Silavor-Haylen I'd had pegged as scum for a long time, for the reasons in the first paragraph under the vote here. The kcdaspice language parallels, and the fact that their low level of activity fit with kcda's trainwrek, sealed the matter. (silavor's mixup and Charlie's "it go boom" didn't help).

(And damn werewolves? What??)

COUPLES THAT WERE ON THE Q21 WAGON

: TRAGEDY/MARIYTA, SILAVOR/CHARLE, RECK/NERO, VEZOK/MIST, GREYICE/ANTIHERO, KCDASPOT/BABY SPICE

COUPLES ON THE KCDA WAGON

: TRAGEDY/MARIYTA, RECK/NERO, WEREWOLF/DRAM

COUPLES ON THE SIL WAGON

: PO/ESP, VEZOK/MIST

Another thing of reminding people as I correct some stuff on this thing.

Sure...but what do you think is the

significance

of full pairs being on a wagon? Are you saying you think scum are more likely to join in full pairs? Do you find the decrease in pairs notable? Are you just putting up pretty charts of IIoA? And why did you think that the full pairs were more important to inform us of than splits?

[Purple Orange]

Also, Purp, how active are you MD?

I read through the waves of threads there on a pretty consistent basis. I think I've commented...once?

Purp, why should I not vote Esp and/or who would my vote (or everyone's) be focused on?

You're looking for reasons NOT to vote us now??

Right now, I'm honestly stumped. Silavor/Haylen NOT flipping scum confuses the hell out of me. (kcdaspice flipping scum wasn't this much of a shock, because they fit the overall profile of how I thought most scum were acting; it was the concrete naggling fact of kcda/BS interaction that held me back when it came to them. So if anything, their scumflip made me MORE confident my read on silavor/Haylen was right).

I think vezok/Mist are a decent pick? (But as mafia-mafia, not werewolf-mafia). There's the defense of kcdaspice on Day 1, coupled with voting for them 5th on Day 2 (shows up as 3rd vote on the final votecount, but when he cast it, it was the 5th), which happened after kcda made his awful post that started the flood of EVERYONE voting for them. Including Baby Spice (8th vote). Activity level also matches the kcda trainwreck decently well.

But...but. Am crazily hesitant to keep plunging away under the momentum of my assumptions there, as I was damn wrong on silavor/Haylen. And I don't like that I've only ended up with one pair as serious suspects today. I'll get back to you with a better answer after I get a chance to fully reread the thread. :/

Emp I think is still a bat bet. Dram I'll guess isn't mafia either, ala the above point. Will keep Grey/Anti in the not-mafia mix for now. On Mari/Traj, I stand by the stuff I said Day 2; still thinking about their actions on Day 3...wary of tunneling. llama/Ashblade have some weird votecount stuff going on. Reck...arrrgh. You...arrgh.

Vote: vezok

in the interim

[Purple Orange]

Dammit, dram --I wanted Tragedy to confirm a thing or two about the "damn werewolves" sentence on her own before jumping for that.

Though on that note, Grey told EmpTyger that if EmpTyger wasn't mafia-partners with kcdaspice, EmpTyger was town.

P.S. If we flip their scumpartner, you're not the scumpartner anymore, and then you're town! That means tea and biscuits.

Well and that other annoying scum group :/

Which I think is a clearer possible slip than Traj's, though Espy doesn't agree with on this one. Probably a difference in how we interpret the last sentence. I'm didn't read the "well and that other annoying scum group" as "...well, or you could be part of that other annoying scum group," but as "that means tea and biscuits! Well, and the other annoying scum group we have to worry about, along with those tea and biscuits."

[Purple Orange]

The basis of Tragedy's post is that the team purposely did not lynch the mafia on day 2.
If she thinks they're werewolves, they wouldn't know the day 2 lynch was on mafia, thus her arguments contradicts itself and makes 0 sense.
OR
It's a scumslip.

Actually, 1) she wasn't making any accusation against us (yet) in that post, and 2) her question centered on the silavor lynch, if it centered on anything. She asked why we were gung ho about the silavor lynch, and not about the other two. It's not an unreasonable assumption that she asked the question because what she REALLY wanted to know why we defended kcda (because she thinks we're scum with them). But that's only an assumption. It's not what she actually asked, and there ARE other possible reasons for asking what she did.

It has the possibility of being a scumslip, but you're reading stuff into the post that isn't explicitly there.

[Purple Orange]

@ Mod: V/LA until the 7th. I might be able to snag some internet in the middle, but no guarantee.

Espy, try not to get us killed while I'm gone.

[Purple Orange]

@ Kise - short answer as I run out the door - Mariyta/Traj I'd be OK lynching; but again, silavor flip has made me question a lot of my reads, and I'm less sure of that than I was yesterday.

[Purple Orange]

Huzzah, back.

@ Grey: Be of good cheer, we'll at least spare you the annoying practice of rolling over and dying whilst spouting enigmatic comments. (And you should vote for Emp because I've had a persistent townread on him, duh).

@ Tragedy: this wasn't a rhetorical series of questions. (Well, ok, the IIoA one was a cheap shot, but still).

Sure...but what do you think is the significance of full pairs being on a wagon? Are you saying you think scum are more likely to join in full pairs? Do you find the decrease in pairs notable? Are you just putting up pretty charts of IIoA? And why did you think that the full pairs were more important to inform us of than splits?

@ Anti:

Emptyger - townish reaction to wagon makes me rule him out;

What did you see as townish about his reaction to the wagon?

=============

Tragedy's going to be very mad at me for this, but I think you guys should just lynch us. As Reck pointed out, there's plenty of mislynches left and we're going to be a point of contention until we're lynched. It might be easier if we're out of the way.

WTF? a) the only people I'd buy this argument about are pairs like vezok/Misty, and b) you should thank silavor for being equally stupidly suicidal, because it's the main thing making me hold off on calling this scummy...and this still makes more sense as a Baby Spice sort of WIFOM than it does as sincerity. (Seriously, if anyone has any warrant to be going all, "oh just kill me!" today, it's not you two).

I'd actually be cool if everyone but the highest rated town-picks were speedlynched. It's like, if this many players think they have good leads, let's go ahead and get them out the way and see what we're left with (if anything) after getting rid of the scummy ones. I don't see why order of elimination matters.

...sooo, maybe this is another matter best suited to mafia discussion, but ala the above, I DO NOT THINK THIS IS A GOOD IDEA AT ALL. Maybe I'm just too bloody influenced by the fact that Espy and myself have been under the gun and possible lynches practically every damn day? But you get information from deaths in large part based on how people wagon them, and everyone agreeing to a consensus quicklynch just lets scum happily get away with wagoning town with about zilch consequences, and/or avoid incriminating connections with their scumbuddies. (Again, maybe better suited to mafia discussion than here. But seriously, the only way I'll agree to a lynch like this is if everyone is just so bloody fed up with this game nothing is happening, and we desperately need SOME flip just so that things can happen. I believe we were starting to hit a wall like that on Day 2, but I do NOT think we're at that point right now).

And how many people does this mean you were/are happy to speedlynch in a row? Unless I'm interpreting this dead wrong, I'm counting at least three pairs yesterday under those criteria (vezok/mist, me/Esp, Mari/Traj), possibly four if we throw dram/wolf or Emp on the pile. How many pairs (and which pairs) did you see as being "top rated town reads"?

[Purple Orange]

I see your question, but I just came to

Vote: Esp

for now. I promise you guys won't be quicklynched.

Um...how the heck do you think you can guarantee that, especially given the fact you just lowered the lynch threshold?

And why no answer to the questions? How many would have been safe from your proposed quicklynch purging? Three pairs? Four pairs? Five pairs? And who would they have been? And did I correctly identify the pairs that you would have happily speedlynched? Were there more? Do you still think a speedlynching party is the way to go?

Why AREN'T you going ahead with pushing a speedlynch on us now? (Well, actually, you're pushing it with your actions and opposing it with your words, so I guess you still are). You seemed to propose this as a happily good solution to things yesterday.

The "dog with tail between his legs" diction towntell and overall attitude.

Why did you zero in on that? What did you gain from that answer? Do you disagree with that assessment of Emp's play?

Because that point in the game was when I was LEAST sure he was town. I think because it felt TOO tail between the legs (and way different from how he'd been posting all thread). If someone had an opposite read from me on those posts, I wanted to know why. Plus I wanted to better feel out the relationship between your pair and his.

Espeonage - scummy as fuck. Sorry, PO, but unfortunately you're an excellent player, and that means I'm less sure of my town read on you, and your partner is a scumbag

So...you think I'm scum because my play has sucked this thread? (I think that's what you're saying?) Does that count as using the meta you've been saying is worthless?

[Purple Orange]

No. I'm saying your partner is really scummy.

And you're a very good player. Meaning town reads on you are less certain than town reads on mediocre players who are less capable of blitzing me.

I still prefer Kise, and have no clue why reck thinks he's town.

Ah, veo.

Um, about all I can say in Espy's defense is that dramonic's right, and he

does

play scummy town. He sort of takes pride in it. (He told me I got the short end of the stick drawing him as a partner, and offered to play more traditionally for my sake, but I told him "meh, do what you want and what works for you, and however you think is the best way to catch scum." Sooo...yeah. Post-game will tell whether that was a good idea or not. As of right now, though, I'm more ticked off at Mari-if-she's-town than I could ever be at Espy).


And...I think Kise is hypocritical scum who just tried to get away with murder. I'm still trying to make sure personal indignation isn't completely screwing up my judgment...this is hard to do when I think he's proposed a FAR FAR WORSE variant of what he called me scum for bringing up on Day 2. (Also have to keep in mind that Kise isn't on one of the teams generally considered "scummy," so a town-Kise would have a perspective on the thread susceptible to certain blind spots).

Soo...fresh set of eyes. What do you think of Kise's speedlynch proposal? Do you see it coming more from scum, or from town-who-just-didn't-think-things-through? (Or have I made a false dilemma here?)

@ Mod: I believe that's 9 to lynch.

[Purple Orange]

Soo...fresh set of eyes. What do you think of Kise's speedlynch proposal? Do you see it coming more from scum, or from town-who-just-didn't-think-things-through? (Or have I made a false dilemma here?)

I thought he said that he promised you wouldn't be speedlynched. It did read sarcastic though.

He did. But yesterday he proposed this:

I'd actually be cool if everyone but the highest rated town-picks were speedlynched. It's like, if this many players think they have good leads, let's go ahead and get them out the way and see what we're left with (if anything) after getting rid of the scummy ones. I don't see why order of elimination matters.

I want to know if you think that's a proposal more likely to come from town that failed to think some things through, or from scum. (And/or if I'm reading more into that than I should be reading).

=========
Yo, Tragedy!!!!!

Sure...but what do you think is the significance of full pairs being on a wagon? Are you saying you think scum are more likely to join in full pairs? Do you find the decrease in pairs notable? [...] And why did you think that the full pairs were more important to inform us of than splits?

Seriously, I want to know your thought process here. And the last question applies even if you

were

just IIoA listing them in order to list them.

[Purple Orange]

@ Kise - I know you're not changing your mind about us. That's been pretty obvious since forever. If either your pair or the llama pair is town, and we end up verging on lylo, Espy and myself will need to die for the town to have a shot at winning. But we're not there yet. And if we hit a wolf pair, and it's bloody obvious Espy and myself can't be the partners, we might NEVER have to go there. So if we've got a free shot or two at hitting a wolf pair, I'd prefer to use them.

I'm trying to figure out if we should use one on you.

========
You honestly still think we should fast-pace quicklynch people? (I also read an implied "with no regard for what they actually flip...we just need to get this list of people out of the way before we can move on," due to the "order doesn't matter" part).

I think your plan sucks. Um...here. For others more than you, or maybe for town-you tomorrow if I die today.

* I'm coming from the perspective of figuring Espy and myself are going to HAVE to be the third lynch if scum isn't hit in the first two. And thus knowing that we've got only two mislynches to spare, not three. That's going to make me a bit more sober and careful about how we proceed than someone who thinks "woo, yay! three free mislynches, and this pair is DEFINITELY scum!"

* Every connection and every vote will count if we go into lylo. Especially if we don't flip another scum before then. I don't know if we have enough connections yet. But I

do

know the lynch method you're proposing will ensure that the minimum the amount of new connections and associations will be able to be drawn from each lynch. And if it's based in any way on community consensus, it also ensures that the minimum amount of responsibility is attached to each vote. I don't think this is a good thing. At all.

=========

Not sure how many ways I can say this. So this is more for others than for you. I never wanted to lynch 14 players in a row with no consideration of anything inbetween. Or even 14 players. Those were the 7 pairs that, due to me finding it damn hard to get a scumreads on Day 2, I was OK seeing one lynched so we could get SOME flip and move on. Again, I wasn't sure how picky I could afford to be that day. The fact I made a beeline for silavor the next day, and that by Day 4 I only had two pairs I felt comfortable lynching, I hope would speak to the temporary and circumstance-bound nature of that list. I also disagree about the stagnation in the game -- I think we were stalled then, and I think we were stuck. We haven't been since.

[Purple Orange]

@ Kise. Nothing's preventing you from ignoring me, especially as you say your mind is made up. (And while I'd love to ignore you, I can't, because I think you might be scum).

I think you're scummy because of your quicklynch proposal

. That's the long and short of this for me. The rest is details, and me trying to figure out if I'm onto something or completely off my rocker.

Spoiler: Kise stuff. Because textwalls shouldn't make more people's eyes bleed than necessary.

Do I need to actually quote the simple shit in life that makes Esp scum, PO?

Um...that would be pretty pointless, wouldn't it? You say yourself that there's no way I could ever change your mind, and that'd be the only reason for you to talk to ME about the ways you think Espy is scummy. Though if you think it could make a whit of difference, be my guest. I can object to bad data like I did with Nero the other day, but interpretation is an iffier matter.

Wah!?!? Rephrase, please.

"Here's why I think your quicklynch idea sucks and is anti-town. You probably aren't going to listen to me, so at this point I'm directing this section to others. Still, if you're town, I hope you'll reconsider what I say here if Espy and myself die today."

I don't think anyone found a connection between vezok/Mist & KCD/BS, BUT HEY, we still got their asses strung up. I did drop the ball by saying KCD probably wasn't bussed, when in fact vezok voted him early on.

Err...

I

voted for him because I thought he was the best remaining possible partner for kcdaspice. And because they didn't vote for kcdaspice on Day 1. And because vezok bussed kcda shortly before Baby Spice did on Day 2. I'd call those connections, and I wasn't the only one citing them. I don't know how many people would have still voted for them without that. But the case wouldn't have been that strong, and I highly doubt he would have gotten lynched as quickly as he did. Also, see below.

It worked with vezok. We found him scummy and cot damn did it work. I don't care if I'm threatened to be lynched at some point. I helped lynched the mafia pairs, but they weren't original cases of mine, I admit. My original cases fall in line with your pair, Reck/Nero, and Emp. Right now I'd hold it at just your pair, possibly Emp, and least likely but possibly Ashblade for something I went over yesterday that I've noticed in his posting.

If a vezok or silavor style lynch is what you're talking about, I don't have as much of an issue. If we get lynched quickly, we get lynched quickly, and people give their reasons, and that's that.

What I did NOT want to see is 3 to 4 pairs lynched one after another, with little or no regard for what one of them actually flipped before the next one bit the dust. And certainly not voted for with reasons the equivalent of, "Vote: Maritya - next scummy pair on the list, let's get this over with so we can get to the real game." Which I think is a horrible and bad and complete responsibility-shirking type of vote...but if the consensus becomes that we just need to lynch XYZ pairs, and get them out of the way before the game can move on -- then there's zero reason anyone can ever be held accountable for casting votes like this. Unlike, say, what happend with vezok/Mist. Who COULD be held accountable and nailed for THEIR opportunistic sheeping votes, because the consensus was that people should actually be giving real reasons for voting for someone.

THIS is what I'm afraid of, THIS is what I saw you promoting with your "quicklynch a couple so we can move on, order's not important," and THIS SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. And it's what I thought you were damn scummy for proposing.

People can still be individually scummy is what I'm getting at.

No argument there. But again, part of the reason we thought vezok/Mist were individually scummy were because of crud sheeping votes. Which is one thing, among others, that I thought/think your quicklynch process could deprive us of being able to observe.

tl;dr

* Wouldn't talking to me about Espy be a bit pointless, given your present convictions?
* See point 2 inside for the rephrase.
*

I

voted for vezok/Mist due to connections.
* Lynches that happen to proceed quickly =/= what you were proposing (or what I thought you were proposing).
* What you were proposing would decrease our ability to identify even some of those "individually scummy" things.

[Purple Orange]

Personally I also think PO is stretching Kise's points to anti-sugar coat this wagon as much as possible (instead of making good reasons why she shouldn't be lynched, she's more suggesting why she shouldn't be lynched quickly.)

I'm arguing with Kise because I think his quicklynch-in-a-row proposal is damnedly antitown, and indicates he's scum. THAT'S why I've been making a big deal about people being lynched quickly. The person currently being lynched happens to be myself/Espy, but that's honestly tangential to the matter at hand. (And if you want a more detailed look at this, read the longest section in the spoiler section below). I've spent all yesterday arguing with and at him trying to figure out if this is a valid lead or a misinterpretation and dead end on my part.

Present conclusion =

Vote: Kise

I've tried to deal with specific concerns. But I can't convince someone I honestly forgot there were nightkills if they're convinced I'm lying. I can't convince someone I was doing precisely what I said I was doing on Day 2, if they're convinced I was doing something evilly sinister. At some point all I can say is, "Sorry, you're wrong." And Lord knows, when

I

don't even know what Espy is doing half the time, I'm not exactly sure how to defend HIM. (He gave his reasons for wanting Mariyta lynched, and they're there if you bother to ISO him. He hasn't even told ME why he thinks Kise is scum. I'm assuming because I give in and tell everyone the "why's" we talk about, and "spoil things" for him).

[Purple Orange]

@ Grey - Uh...I think you're missing his point about Espy. (And why is Kise's tunneling any reason to vote for him? Are you seeing it as artificial and forced consistency or something? Because it's null to me. Hell, I tunnelled silavor badly from Day 1. ).

======

Quote fuck up. Trust me though, Esp wrote this.

The worst thing about this post is that it's true. Also adding that to what reck (I think it was reck) said earlier about just choosing a couple of lynches and running with them for a bit actually makes sense at this point in the game.

Unvote, Vote: vezok

LOLOLOLOLOL. I suppose I should start paying attention to Espy's posts again. (I know I went back and checked Reck before coming after you. Didn't find anything that concerned me about him...his 158 +162 dealt only with that day, and he did it rather grudgingly, and he's never implied several-quick-in-a-row-to-get-this-over-with).

I did say I could see the idea coming from town who didn't think things through, though. From the very start. Which is one reason I didn't vote you for like forever. Sooo...not voting my lover.

======
@ Emp - Um, not Reck? I usually don't consciously look for pairs until someone actually flips scum. Blind pair-hunting just makes me to tunnel on certain players more than I reasonably should. (And I've started listing any blind pairings as "conspiracy theory of the week," because that's about how accurate and effective they are). Why do you ask? Do you think I SHOULD think about it for some reason?


^I can haz hunt by individual scumminess too, Kise. I'd just prefer not reduce opportunities for people to display individual scumminess (and association with partners) whilst hunting by individual scumminess.

[Purple Orange]

Are we gonna be 3 for 3 on town couples crying all the way to the noose rather than trying to save themselves by scumhunting (4 for 3 if saving EmpTyger was justified)? WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME.

Well, kcdaspice was at least scum that gave up.

And I iz TRYING to scumhunt, man.

[Purple Orange]

Vote Esp QWICK, b4 Purp come bakk.

You can say this is a defense of Kise and what not and maybe Kise is bussin' but I don't think he was being snerious abut the QL and I feel its pretty weak reasoning

Err...not what I was talking about. I LOL'd at that bit from him. It was this:

I'd actually be cool if everyone but the highest rated town-picks were speedlynched. It's like, if this many players think they have good leads, let's go ahead and get them out the way and see what we're left with (if anything) after getting rid of the scummy ones. I don't see why order of elimination matters.

To which I've given a rather uncharitable interpretation. See section 4 under the spoiler in this post. But which he's reiterated and defended, and hasn't said, "that's not what I was implying." (You didn't even give that bulletpoint a bolded answer. Unless you considered the Espy quote to be the response.).

Am also giving an uncharitable interpretation to the CAPSRAGE post (which I feel was a planned and forced attempt to distract from what I was asking him) and the followup in which he tries to blame me for making him do it. Also didn't like his non-vote and late-vote pattern when I looked at the votecounts. Those things tipped the balance into a vote, for me.

=======

Look, I wanna kill Kise. I really, really do. And if the wagon swings back that way, I will.

Fuck this,

Unvote

Vote: Tragedy

I'm tired of town giving up. Period. Policy.

Still don't see your "he's tunneling" reason as a good one. Um...and on Mari/Traj...Traj I've been ignoring. It's been Mari (plus some theories about scum activity levels) I've been basing my scumread off of. Activity level stuff still applies. But the suicide/martyrdom is...effective. Recent posts made me waver, and it's why I currently want to chew her out over vote for her today. :/

[Purple Orange]

What took you so long to vote, Tragedy?? (I mean, not that I didn't appreciate the delay. But weren't you the one who thought we were werewolves yesterday or something?)

======
And woops, you answered the other stuff I asked, and I missed it.

The truth was, I really wanted Vezok to actually be lynched.
Even an idiot would notice he was on every wagon while he jumped on with his silly sheeping partner.

So you brought up the pairs because you thought it was the best way to prove that vezok was scum?

I guess everyone seemed to be less concerned after those town mislynches, but the decrease in pairs...

Why would everyone be less concerned after the town mislynches? What would they be less concerned about? (I'm lost).

[Purple Orange]

@ Grey - I don't think Espy would have a problem moving his vote back over to Kise. :p It's other people agreeing that could be a problem. (And your current stated reasoning is iffy at best, but I dun said that already).

[Purple Orange]

Mkay. ISOs + votecounts finally.

Grey/Anti -- I'm assuming they're town, and praying I'm right. Process of elimination concerning Kise-partners is actually not kind to them (damn you Emp...), but I'd still have a devil of a time convincing myself they're scum.

Emp...still reading town. Also really hard for me to see as scum. ((@ Emp: add not-llama to the not-Reck. I also came up with a not-dram, but my reasoning there is really iffy; bussing variables amongst Kise-dram-Mari get really weird really quickly)).

Reck...probtown. Had them in limbo for a while, because all Reck had on Day 1 were a) reactionary posts, and b) sheeping posts. His first proactive post was Day 2 where he theorized about on-wagon and off-wagon scum. But can't fault his Day 2 through 4 play, where he's picked a target and pushed for its lynch, come hell or high water. Has also said some other stuff I like. Nero...is just confused and out of it.

llama is...likely town??? Which is not what I was expecting. The llama/DBE/Ash votecount stuff is a horrid mess of mid-to-late wagoning. Ugliest of any pair. Darla was awful. And I don't get this Ashblade love. He's null at best - he's said nothing of interest, and his opinions have gone with the flow. But...but llama. As his only major point today (well, along with his vote for me), llama brings up the possibility of Kise bussing. Which is sensible and important to consider, and for reasons no one will care about until I'm dead, something that I think town is way more likely dream up and emphasize in this instance than scum. Also, words cannot express how much I love this post. ISOs 27 and 30 were nifty, too. llama hasn't been saying much, but when he does, it's often original and town. (And...he wants to kill me).

dram is null. (Minor note: he didn't confuse Traj/me as being on the same team, like I said he did yesterday. He just names us together in the context of talking about liking certain individual players). Leaning scum on wolf based on meta. Am a bit more sure of this after this game I finished tracking. (Here's the town game I reference.

I

see and feel a difference, but that's largely due to actually playing in the towngame with him, and I really don't count on anyone else seeing this). So without resorting to meta...unreadable null. Glad he's being replaced.

Mari/Traj - suicide/martyr stuff is making me second guess the scumread. But it probably shouldn't. If Mari doesn't get her head back in the game by Day 6 and start being townie as heck, show no mercy.

Kise...well, you can chew me out after the game if I've just done something really stupid. :/

[Purple Orange]

P-Edit: Thanks for misrepping me again, Grey. If & when Esp flips werewolf, guess who's likely to get shot with a silver bullet next?

You should try giving a townread sometime...you're missing half the fun of the thread. You could even start with a question like, "who are the highest rated townreads, the ones that should be exempt from the quicklynch-in-a-row purge?"

As for Kise, Kise has always been on my shit list. He hasn't done ONE THING since he made the case against you except tunnel a completely different pair.

He's the serial tunneler.

"Serial tunneler" is a fair accusation. But your description of some of his actual actions is off. He thought Reck/Nero/me/Espy were scummy for pretty much identical reasons, right from the start. We're not a "completely different pair." He also looked at Emp for a bit, and threw a salvo or two at werewolf and Traj.

But...sure. He's had a pretty narrow set of folks he's given opinions on all thread. And even on kcda and vezok I feel like we had to drag him kicking and screaming to give an opinion and vote. (Um...need to see if I should be giving similar criticism to some other folks, though). I haz more thoughts on this, but I'm kind of zonked for tonight.

(And...thanks? :/ I dunno how much longer you'll effectively have my back, but I very much appreciate it. Ala Reck, I'll also tend to flip out when people buddy me, but enough inthread points town, so I'm closing my eyes and running with this. If you're town, you're taking the larger risk, so it's the least I can do. And, hell, if by some chance you're scum, I figure the best way out is in, anyway). Vote Kise, though. He's scum. Risk, responsibility, reads. The pieces are there. I think it clicks.

[Purple Orange]

Ok, fine other people's townreads. What about the flip side? Should I even bother trying to re-ask you the "Did I correctly identify the pairs that you would have happily speedlynched? Were there more?" question? Who were the scummy folks that should be lynched-in-a-row? (Or were you also talking about other people's reads, again?)

[Purple Orange]

I'll take that as a "haha, not answering"?

What about the "Were you referring to other people's reads" part? Can I at least have that?

I already shut down every reason you had for "suspecting" me.

You wound me with your scarequotes.

And no you didn't. But I haz new stuff anyway. And a cohesive metanarrative to boot. (And I think you may have missed a post back there where I talked about some stuff that tipped the balance for me, so maybe it has even more new stuff!) I just wanted to clarify the above point with you before finishing. :/

[Purple Orange]

If anything, I've found I hate doing things indirectly. :p I actually wanted to lay things out as cleanly and straight as I could today, as soon as possible. Because I suck at subtlety, and because it's the fastest and best and fairest way to get to the bottom of things, and because if you're town, I want to get this cleaned up and over with. (And yeah. You still make posts that makes me go "town????" and "maybe I'm wrong.") Ended up asking you questions again today, however, because I didn't want to misrep you, or be subject to that accusation. And because I thought there was some ambiguity that you could wiggle out of if I didn't nail you down to an answer.

[Purple Orange]

Anyhoo. Not something to die on a hill over. So. Quick things first.
* You really don't seem to grasp the idea of day-bound/circumstance-bound lists. I'm reading Grey as fine lynching everyone but Reck and dram if push comes to shove, but certainly not seeing it as the ideal plan. Also, even assuming your premise...

at least he bit the bullet and named the people he wanted to lynch

.
* Yes, I considered the possibility that you really are just obstinate town with a philosophical objection to giving townreads. Now at least I know that's what you're claiming.
* The fact that you meant "everyone else's townreads"

is precisely part of why I have a problem with you.

(Um...see below).
===========
Straight up as I can.

Kise is scum because he's been quite adeptly avoiding risk, reads, and responsibility for lynches the entire thread. A pattern to which the quicklynch proposal serves as a fitting capstone

.

Kise's tunneling on me/Espy is null, and he can be as uncharitable in his interp of Espy and myself he'd like. What's NOT null is a pattern of risk-avoidance, read-avoidance, and responsibility-avoidance. And THAT is what Grey noticed (through all his misfires), that's what Espy noticed (though he sucked at putting it into words), and that's what makes Kise's quicklynch-in-a-row proposal so darn problematic.

Kise hasn't given a townread all thread. Why? It's damn risky. (And by his "if they flip scum, you'll be next because you defended them" threat to Grey, he's well aware of this).

For the same reason, he's stuck with just a couple targets all thread. Reck/Nero/Espy/me. With a dash of Emp, and a salvo at wolf and Traj. (He's added a salvo at Ashblade recently.)

And it's why he's been offwagon, not-voting, late-voting, and/or late-to-give-an-opinion so many times. Only the llama-pair looks worse than him. (Which is part of why my llama townread threw me for a loop).

I think it's also why he proposed the quicklynch-in-a-row thing. It's a way of avoiding direct responsibility for the lynches that would occur over the next three to four days. One can blame the lynches on community consensus -- and chalk up any participation in them to just "helping out the town by cleaning up the deadwood everyone wants to get rid of." And the bonus of minimizing connections/associations doesn't hurt. (I give a longer treatise on the thing underneath the spoiler in that one post. But that's the gist of it).

And it's why he dodged my question about WHO exactly the people were that he thought should be lynched, and WHO the "highest rated townreads" were that should be exempt from the lynch. He doesn't want to name them yourself. He wants to ride along with the sweep of the town.

And, yeah, a bit of this: "Am also giving an uncharitable interpretation to the CAPSRAGE post (which I feel was a planned and forced attempt to distract from what I was asking him) and the followup in which he tries to blame me for making him do it. "

tl;dr

- vote kise, he's scum

[Purple Orange]

VOTE: ESPEONAGE

LYING SCUM

Reck. We're like at L-1 now, and probably gonna die...soon. Mind giving a reason why you think we're actually scum? And, meh - why you want to probably get us killed before Akira has a chance to vote/comment in here after completing the thread?

[Purple Orange]

Unvote, Vote: Tragedy

Mkay. Still think Kise is more likely scum. :p But I can roll with this.

[Purple Orange]

Err...I'm voting for you because you guys were a prior scumread of mine, because I have a townread on practically everyone else, and because Espy is convinced to the bottom of his soul that you two are scum.

Traj. Who do you think should die if Espy/me flip town?

[Purple Orange]

Unvote, Vote: Kise

@Emp:

Can someone explain to me why werewolf-Mariyta proposed an out for Kcda?

Maybe because she wasn't serious? Can you explain why town-Mariyta would call kcda scum for trying to do precisely what she suggested?

@ Grey - Well, I think you can deduce my answer to that.

@ Kise - 1) Quicklynch proposals in and of themselves do seem to be null. :p Which

is

something I was willing to make allowance for, and which is why it took the vote pattern and the dodging capsrage post to tip the balance. Lack of townreads + some of the stuff Grey brought up strengthened the read. 2) Espy thought your wobble in 1468 meant you were even more certainly scum...to me it looked way more like one of those twinges of doubt that town sometimes get, but mafia never can. What can I say? I had a wobble in response.

[Purple Orange]

???? It's the continuation of an exchange with him. Here:

Spoiler: the previous stuff

Okay.. so ur supposed to be sold on me as scum, right? If so, why are you still questioning me / trying to figure me out? Your continued q&a method comes across more as you trying desperately to find SOMETHING to use against me. I'm tempted to completely ignore you because ur dragging me in circles.

I actually wanted to lay things out as cleanly and straight as I could today, as soon as possible. Because I suck at subtlety, and because it's the fastest and best and fairest way to get to the bottom of things, and because if you're town, I want to get this cleaned up and over with. (And yeah. You still make posts that makes me go "town????" and "maybe I'm wrong.") Ended up asking you questions again today, however, because I didn't want to misrep you, or be subject to that accusation. And because I thought there was some ambiguity that you could wiggle out of if I didn't nail you down to an answer.

"Walking" contradictions. PO's old case was shut down, but shes found new things to call me scummy for? lololol. She cant decide whether i have a chance of being town or obvscum? lolololol.

Am voting for him because I still read him as scummier than Mari/Traj right now. Not very sure that the lynch is going to happen...at the moment Mari's seems more likely than his, and ours WAY more likely. But if there's a chance on it, I'm going back there.

Why are you reading him as town?

[Purple Orange]

Oh, here I was thinking I had accidentally allcapsed.

Whereabouts is that?

Middle of day 1. Sort of hard to miss. The tl;dr (as people still refer to it all the time later) = Reck and Kise have a big argument, where Kise accuses Reck (or Nero) of having a conversation with him, that Reck (and Nero) swear never occurred. End result: Kise still insists that the conversation happened, and

had

to be with Reck or Nero, as they're the only people (aside from one other guy, that he talked to in ages) on his IM list. Reck and Nero still say they never had such a conversation. Kise and Reck have both dropped the matter, saying that somewhere someone must just be mistaken somehow. Everyone has eventually followed their lead.

=====

Oh, and also, before I die...is anyone dying for exhaustive votecounts of days 1-3 (and maybe 4)? I got miffed at sens and made some for myself. Day 1

might

be missing an intermediate step or two (a player voted for one person, then for another, then for another, and I don't have a record of the middle vote), but days 2 and 3 have every change in them somewhere.

[Purple Orange]

KISE.

Do you SEE how both Ashblade and llama switched votes? Do you SEE the counterwagons? Do you SEE Reck's posts that are ALREADY analyzing wagon behavior?! HELL. DO YOU SEE YOUR OWN POST NOTING ASHBLADE AND LLAMA'S VOTES AND TALKING ABOUT BUSSING???

THIS THIS THIS IS WHY I'M FIGHTING SO DAMN HARD AGAINST MY LYNCH TODAY

. And why I've been so ticked off at town who DON'T fight. And why I hope any other town up for mislynch in the next day or two will FIGHT THEIR ASSES OFF.

There's like an exponential/multiplicative/whatever increase in the information that can now be gleaned from Espy/my death, and/or Mari's death, and/or your death, and/or PRACTICALLY ANY OTHER PLAYER'S DEATH. Frikkin' more than whatever could have been gleaned if I'd just given up and rolled over and let the votes pile up to a single-wagon very-fast-hammer today.

So seriously. Cut the self-preservation crap.

Duh

I think people would be better off taking two shots that have a chance to hit actual mafia, before they have to resort to mislynching us. Do I think they will? Uh...not really. But, hell. Even IF you're right that I've been utterly useless this thread due to too-tentative reads or whatnot, and that people should get us out of the way if only for that reason (at least I think that's what you just said...), I am NOT going to be useless in my death.

So there's MY martyrdom spiel for this thread.

[Purple Orange]

@ Grey:

PO WASN'T GETTING LYNCHED ON DAY 1, IT'S FINE FUCKING DISTANCING, AND NOW HE WANTS TO LYNCH SOMEONE NOT PO?

Well,

I

thought there was a good chance of me getting lynched on Day 1. :

======
@ Kise:

Please give a simple yes or no: Does anyone else see Ash as misrepping/lying?

Yes. (How the hell don't people see this?). You were gung-ho on Reck/Nero/Espy/Me before we ever said "boo" about you. And your softball at Ash here was the first accusation I saw between your pairs. Whether I think they misrepped with malicious intent would be a separate matter, but they

did

misrep in saying that you've only gone after people who attack you.

=====
@ Reck.

Kise, let me ask you something: what motivation would GreyICE have for

not

going along with the quicklynch plan if he's scum?

Several, actually, especially after I crashed around and made an issue of the plan being a bad idea. But we're playing multiple levels of WIFOM deep if we go there. (He sort of does agree a bit later, when he gives his approval to a reflexive Kise lynch after an Espy lynch).

========
@ Emp:

PO:

Can you explain why town-Mariyta would call kcda scum for trying to do precisely what she suggested?

Um... Kcda didn't do what she suggested?

Mariyta suggested that Kcda relay his posts through Baby Spice.
Instead, both of them stopped posting completely for a week, and were called on it. And Mariyta called them found both suspicious when they posted on their return.

(Or, if you prefer, the explanation Mariyta gave you herself D2:

"Baby Spice took the reprieve given to her partner and jumped on the first wagon to form. I haven't had a read on her to this point, but her recent play is deliciously scumalicious." / "Kcda's play is newb-scummy, so I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. Til his partner came in and ruined that, of course."

)

I don't see any problem with that. And, as I said before, I don't see a werewolf providing them that initial respite.

Well, actually, it's this part of ISO 55 that you should have pointed to:

Do you agree with Reck that they also look scummy because kcda wants Baby Spice to look over his posts?

@PO: Yes, I do, but I can also see that as mega-newb play (not indicative of alignment).

...as it indicates that an overall scumread (reached through other reasons) changed how she decided to interpret an otherwise null action. I think. So, sure, I'll drop this contention.

There's still plenty of question in my mind about the tone and seriousness of the initial suggestion she made, however, so I don't see it as a lockdown "werewolf wouldn't do this" actions at all. (And even when I do see things like that...if there's a lot pointing in the other direction that can oughtweigh that, sometimes I still vote that way).

======
@ Tragedy:

I

think vezok/Mist are a decent pick?

(But as mafia-mafia, not werewolf-mafia).

!!
As mafia-Mafia? You do not think them as WEREWOLF-MAFIA? Isn't it

SOMEHOW SUSPICIOUS OF THIS?

I REQUEST THAT THE SUSPECT, PURPLE ORANGE, WOULD RESPOND WITH A GOOD EXPLANATION ON WHY YOU BELIEVED THAT THEY WOULD MOST LIKELY NOT BE WEREWOLF-MAFIA. OF COURSE, MIST/VEZOK HAD VOTED AGAINST ANYONE, TO OBVIOUSLY MAKE IT SUSPICIOUS THAT THEY WOULD OBVIOUSLY BE SCUMFACED.

That would be the fault of me discussing too much mafia theory with Kise. I was still arguing with him about mafia-team proclivities, and making predictions based upon our respective systems. His predicted werewolf-mafia. Mine didn't necessarily

exclude

the possibility of werewolf-mafia, but mafia-mafia was a lot more likely, as I felt vezok/Mist were practically the only lurkish pair left who were ineffective enough to have presided over the kcdaspice debacle. (If that made no sense, I can try a long answer. I swear it works in some crazy whacked out way, but the logic is a bit...convoluted.)

[Purple Orange]

tl;dr of the stuff under the spoiler tag/b]
* Oops, I dun misrepped Ash. The point he WAS making (that Kise attacked anyone who didn't agree with him) is still bullshit, though. The only person it could possibly apply to is Grey.
* Only this part of Ash's case on Kise is a misrep. Kise DID hypertunnel on Espy/me, the timing of his attack on Grey coincided with Grey's disagreement with Kise, and he IS indeed voting for someone other than the pair he's been convinced (for pretty much the whole game) would flip scum.
* I think that all the above points are null.
* llama's case is better, but just an echo of my 1487.

At the moment, trying to decide how much Day 5.5 should count against everything I thought I saw in Days 1 through 5.0. :p

Spoiler: textwall concerning the above bulletpoints

but they

did

misrep in saying that you've only gone after people who attack you.

Ashblade actually said he only went after "everyone who doesn't agree with him." Which is bullshit also, but it's still pretty damn awful of me to misrep someone while I'm saying they misrepped someone.

Anyhow. I tracked everyone Kise attacked when I made that 1487, and I've just rechecked them. Kise has been after Reck/Nero/Espy/me since HIS VERY FIRST POST. He's been after Espy/me while we've called him town, while we've called him scum, while we've agreed with him, while we've disagreed with him. He got on the kcdaspice and vezok wagons; he took taken minor salvos at werewolf and Mari/Traj...none of which are tied to them disagreeing with him or attacking him, as far as I can tell. And he certainly attacked your pair before you guys said ANYTHING about him. (You guys have also agreed with him pretty consistently about Espy/me, since Day 1).

1410 - Kise puts Ash as lowest of three scumreads. "...and least likely but possibly Ashblade for something I went over yesterday that I've noticed in his posting."
1417 - Ash votes Espy, says Kise is town, because PO is scum trying to stretch a case on him
1420 - llama votes Espy
1457 - Ash throws a "Kise is making me nervous" softball
1458 - Kise says oh no you don't OMGUS. And that he might have misjudge Ash, given Grey's unexpected defense of PO.
1467 - Kise finally says WHY he thinks Ash is scum. "Iso'ing Ash shows me he tends to comment on irrelevent things."
1507 - Llama votes for Kise. "Kise hasn't given out townreads and has stayed in a small space. Kise's posting doesn't look like that of a player who is trying to figure the game out or truly cares who gets lynched. The exception to that is the Reck episode, and I doubt Kisescum is any less likely than Kisetown to go after someone he thinks he has caught lying."
1508 - Kise reiterates he sees llama/Ash as 3rd most likely scum
1539 - Ash says agrees with his partner that Kise is scum, and votes. "All he's doing is putting people as scum as EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH HIM."
1540 - Kise gets mad at Ash.
1548 - Llama makes a post that Kise later calls fluff
1553 - Kise votes for Ash

GreyICE is the ONLY person you could legitimately say he listed because they disagreed with him, as they are the ONLY pair that even fits your chronology.

======
Conversely - Kise. This is the only thing I see Ash misrepping you on.

Llama's post is fine (if a complete echo of mine), and Ash's 1555 is slightly better than his 1539.

Tunnel hyperdrive on PO until he couldn't handle it anymore.
Added Grey to the list when he disagreed with the excess tunneling.
Added me when I didn't like the tunneling either, and is now voting me instead of the person he thought was SO SURE, that PO and Esp would flip scum."

You DID hypertunnel on Espy/me, the timing of your attack on Grey coincided with his disagreement with you, and you ARE indeed voting for someone other than the pair you've been convinced (for pretty much the whole game) would flip scum. (imho all of these are null, though, not scummy).

[Purple Orange]

@ Kise: Um...other than all the reasons we call people "protown" and give townreads in every OTHER mafia game? Even before any scum are flipped in those?

@ Hikari (and Traj) - Assuming Espy is referring to what I think he's referring to, what he says in that post is perfectly rational, and Traj is completely missing his point. (If Espy doesn't get in here to explain sometime, I can try to give a translation. :p)

@ Anti: Forget the day 1...why haven't you voted yet

today

, 300 posts in? You've been a quite early voter on days 1-4, plus Grey has said that your dislike of Kise was one of his reasons for voting Kise.

[Purple Orange]

@ llamarble - Do you still think Espy/me are scum, regardless of what Kise flips? Or are you with Ash that it's an either/or situation?

@ Kise:

I think the intention is to get our pairs out of the way. Yes, we've dragged the day on... but why was there no steam when I called to vote Esp at first? Everyone dragged, and now that I found the real scum in Ash, everyone's too lazy to look his way. Oddly enough, they all of a sudden start agreeing with either voting Esp or myself, to end the day.

Um...no, there was a LOT of steam. You may not be keeping track of how close Espy/me came to being lynched TWICE already today, but I sure have.

@ llamafluff

By putting is vote on q21 due to what his lover did, its going to destroy vote count analysis, and exaggerate the strength of the wagon on an individual slot. Pushing on one player but backing the wagon on their lover is going to make the late game very hard to deal with as we look for partners. Just about all the refrence to wolf that dram did was ask for him to be replaced.

How? It's just shorthand for the whole loverteam. Day 1 there's a bit of confusion and overlap, but by Day 2

everyone

is voting for whatever lover already has a vote on him. (The one thing you might pull from Day 1 is that q21 would have been lynched one vote earlier, had your slot been paying attention and switched his vote to the lover that actually counted).

VCA shows you only early on town lynches, and late/not present on scum ones.

If they're werewolves,

everyone

is the enemy, so the differentiation between town and scum lynches doesn't mean much. Also, their votecounts aren't the ones I find most disturbing. They've got some atypical stuff, like being 4th/5th on every wagon on day 1, but they haven't been afraid to lead off voting, or push early wagons on a variety of people. (Well, until today, when they were the 7th pair out of the voting gate instead of the 1st or 2nd, and Anti hasn't even voted).

I can post a more detailed rundown of things if you want. But the people with the bad records are Kise and llamateam. What I got from those pairs, between their votepatterns and their posts, is an overall lack of initiative and a narrow range of focus, the level of which I honestly don't see in most of the others left. (dram and Traj are borderline; Grey, Emp, and Reck are decently clean).

[Purple Orange]

It actually makes it EASIER to analyze things when people's partners are voted for. Trust me on this. :p Look at the person voted for as the "representative" of the team as a whole. People usually note which of the lovers they see as scummier, when they vote, especially if they happen to think it's the one other than the one they voted for. The only time I get confused when doing votecounts of this thread is when I look at Day 1, and there's people who are voting for the SAME LOVERTEAM, but split up between the two halves of it. *headache headache death doom*

[Purple Orange]

Except where he, y'know, keeps referring to her as "mafia" until we flip Vezok Piraka.

Show me where. LlamaFluff is right about his use of terminology- there's not one single example of mafia/scum used interchangably by him. Were you trying to refer to this?

Tragedy and Co are being dramatic, again. Now that it turns out they cannot be mafia, the townish feel I'd gotten from the whole Vezok debacle has got them back in my scummier list.

Dram is specifically saying they cannot be mafia [team], BECAUSE THE MAFIA TEAM IS DEAD.

And concerning this:

I do not see the town motive at all for saying she'll self-vote if Vezok makes a decent case (barring the fact its a riskless bet, considering vezok making a decent case is statistically impossible). On the other hand, if she were mafia it means giving up any hope for her team to win.

"Mafia team in particular" is PRECISELY how I interpreted dram the first time, because it IS how he (and most other people) have been using the words this thread. And because he mentioned suicide. I wasn't 100% clear on what dram was saying, because it was phrased a bit weird, but I thought it was along the lines of, "it would be a bad idea no matter what scum alignment they were, but that if they were mafia-team, it'd be utter suicide and the loss of the game for their team."

Which...means I DIDN'T think he was scummy for referring to the mafia team in particular. I just thought it was a bit badly phrased. It's his denial that that's what he was doing, and his trying to say he was using scum and mafia interchangably, that actually makes me look at him funny today.

[Purple Orange]

Um...you realize Llamafluff is Kise's partner, right, guys?

Even if you are going to disagre with me on that, what do you think about the case on dram?

As above, I thought dram was referring to mafia-team-in-particular, and I didn't think it was a scumslip when he said it.

I think that a lot of the things you're accusing dram of, Kise looked worse.

dram was holding steady my as third scumpick the last time I analyzed everyone. He's still about that level. But as of right now, I'd still rather lynch you/Kise. It does feel like you two are trying to look town and get votes off your back and onto ANYONE else (and cause Espy/me to be lynched by default, but with YOUR hands coming away technically clean) by initiating more new cases in the past half day than you guys did all thread. (Grey, llama, dram...)

This isn't entirely fair of me, as you're a replacement, so of course will have your own and new opinions about the thread. And you might cause votes to come off Espy/me as well as yourselves in the process. But, dammit, I gotta make a call here, and right now it's still stuck on you guys. If I'm tunneling wrongly...well, Kise would know what that's like, and how hard it can be to break.

Also, I want llamarble to answer the question I asked him.

[Purple Orange]

NOT TO MENTION you're wanting to lynch dramonic BEFORE HIS LOVER EVEN HAS A CHANCE TO CATCH UP

I'd really like his lover to post...anything.

And as all the replacements including the new llama are just making things very confusing:

In order claimed.

UPDATED (AGAIN) LOVER LIST

EmpTyger - Thingyman
GreyICE - Antihero
Llamarble - Ashblade _{(replaced DarlaBlueEyes)}
Kise - LlamaFluff _{(replaced PrayPiotr, Implosion)}
xRECKONERx - Nero Cain

vezokpiraka - Mist7676 _{(replaced SnakePlissken)}

q21 - Umbrage

Tragedy - Papa Zito _{(replaced Mariyta)}

Kcdaspot - Baby Spice

Purple Orange - Espeonage

Silavor - Charlie _{(replaced Haylen)}

dramonic - Xalxe _{(replaced werewolf555)}

[Purple Orange]

Well someone needs to hold you to this since its coming.

Iff you guys flip town. But the main reason I suspect dram right now is because he says he

didn't

say what I thought he clearly

did

said. (And b/c I think werewolf was playing to a scum meta). Otherwise they're pretty null, and I'm inclined to trust Reck's "I KNOW HOW TO READ DRAM AND HE IS TOWN YOU IDIOTS AND EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES I WILL HATE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE AND YOU SHOULD ALL DIE IN A FIRE" call.

Stop trying to get us lynched. We need to clear each other via the Ash-wagon.
I think it's funny that I started out as the tunneler, and now no one wants to back off Esp to consider an Ash lynch. Pretty please switch to Ash, guys?

"We" need to do no such thing. The presence of daytalk and the inthread discussions about bussing complicate matters. Still trying to work out what I think of Ash/llama, and what it could mean in relation to you. (Their switch of votes is by far the most confusing thing I've seen Day 5). I ended up with town-town or scum-scum when I looked at this today, and I'm thinking I crossed one WIFOM wire too many somewhere in there.

3) Kise’s recent play has been reminding me of how I've played as mafia in games with a 2-person mafia and my lynch is approaching.

How so? Because this is honestly the first original thing I've seen someone say against Kise since my 1487. (Well, except Reck going all CAPSRAGE on LlamaFluff, and I'm not exactly trusting his objectivity on the matter).

(And I think you're reading too much into 1621).

[Purple Orange]

Oookay...so. Back.

=========

Emp/Hiraki are town. If they are scum, I give up, and I'll just pick random names out of a hat the next game. Reck is town. GreyIce is town, because he probably is, and because I can't afford that level of paranoia right now.

Llama/Ash = gaaaaaaaah. *headwall* Too much WIFOM here. I do find your switch from Espy/me to Kise rather arbitrary and out-of-the-blue, as you'd been after Espy/my head for pretty much the whole thread, and hadn't said BOO about Kise until today. And it occurs after Reck starts his wagon analysis of "if Esp/Purp are town, we're looking at the current wagon for scumpairs.") The fact that Kise and Reck and I and some other folks all talked inthread about what mafia would and wouldn't do, and how they would or wouldn't bus, will throw off the read of actions that come after such discussions, yours in particular.

dram/whoever - I had a (possibly iffy) meta scumread on wolf. And in dram's "mafia" post, I DON'T read dram as saying what he now says he was saying. So I'm either reading that post of his wrongly, both back when I first read it, and now...or he lied, because he thought it DID look like a slip. And thought that saying, "I was using mafia to mean scum in general" was the best way to wiggle out of it. I

cannot

rule out dram-scum, and it DOES NOT fucking "end now" for me, because I can't shake my initial interp of that post, and because he

never

uses scum and mafia interchangeably before or after that post. I don't see that post as a slip. But I DO see "I was using mafia to mean scum" as a probable lie.

Kise/llama - gaaaaaaah and WIFOM to you, too. But if I have to choose between your "gaaaaah" and the llamarble "gaaaah," I'm going to stick with you. There's what I think I saw on Days 1 through 5.0. And looking at simply Day 5.5, I don't like how you tried to get me to vote Ash to "clear us both." (Which it wouldn't do anyway. And you don't even seem to consider the possibility he might be, oh, town). And if I think the llamarble team has turned inexplicably on a dime, I think you did as well when it came to Espy/me. Actually moreso, as you came barralling out that we were TOWN TOWN TOWN TOWN TOWN. Grey, Reck, llama, Ash, and Emp haven't had drastic and permanent(?) changes of heart like that. And as a cautious/tentative support is the tenor of what I'm seeing from the pairs that I think are town, your gung-ho divergence from it bothers me.

Zito/Traj - have been laying pretty low since attention got called off them.

==========

Plus, this looks like horrible OMGUS'ing, excluding the part where PO made a case.

But Grey has misreps, ad homs, and the worst facade of aggressive scumhunting I've seen in a long time. Which, meh, might not be so bad in itself, because one can get reactions from a push like that (see benefit of the doubt). But then the final, "oh, ok, people don't seem to be buying this case...let's give myself a backdoor out and say maybe Umbrage is just really bad town...let's turn on a dime and drop this guy and sheep the kcda wagon!" That was pretty darn bad.

But no examples. Le soupir.

There's something to be said for stating an initial case short and sweet. Plus I'm pretty darn sure I talk about the specific posts of Grey's I had problems with, in various posts both before and after my vote-post. And even IN the vote-post, in the second-to-last sentence. Either way, I can give you some accompanying citations. (Also, Grey had been calling us town for most of the day, and that post wasn't the first time I'd questioned their alignment, so I'm not sure where you're getting OMGUS from. ).

Question for all: Would bandwagoning in this current scenario be more likely to come from town or werewolf?
Optional question: Why?

If I knew the answer to that, I'd know who was frikkin' town and werewolf.

[Purple Orange]

In comes Llama with tunnelvision full steam ahead, which Kise does not fall into.

Kise is playing as town, not as a suck-up to his lover.

Um...yeah, because llama just falls into Kise's new vision instead.

Zito/Myself are utterly confused.
A massive wall spam and massive posts does not appeal us.
It makes it harder for us to care and understand wtfux going on.

Err...would pretty pictures help? I'm actually not sure if it does any good, but it's at least a faster overview of who voted for whom when. (I made this for Espy/me the other week, and I iz lazy, so you'll have to deal with Espy/me being a greenish color for now, unless/until I make a mirror copy that's a bit more technically objective).

[Purple Orange]

You posted the final votecounts of those days. Which are useful, but don't tell the whole story. This doesn't either, but it's at least a bit more exhaustive. (I also have the plaintext stuff mentioned here). :p

[Purple Orange]

Also I refuse to vote the PO/Esp slot. I think its town, if we get them lynched as town, we are just screwed the next day which means its lylo before people even start to consider dram-scum seriously which im not going to let happen.

If we're both town, they knock us 1-2, and STILL have one free mislynch before lylo.

[Purple Orange]

Also, I'm very leery of those trying to argue that dramonic is the worse half of his loverpair.

Err...wereolf said nothing, and Xalxe has said less. There's really only one half of the pair to evaluate (though I did my damnedest to nail down wolf).

dram's participation is low and his vote record is iffy, but Reck says he always participates minimally, and that his level of participation here is actually MORE than should be expected. I'm happy to believe Reck here, and haven't held it against dram - I had him classed as null today, before the Mari-mafia discussion. And I don't think the Mari-mafia comment is a scumslip either, and people arguing it is are being silly.

But I also think dram lied

. I don't think he was using "mafia" to mean "scum." And while I can possibly see town trying to save face here...um...there's a reason the Lynch All Liars thing exists, and I'm trusting dram would be truthful as town. :/ Seriously -- read his posts, and try to tell me he was using mafia synonymously with scum there. HE WASN'T. He doesn't do it before, he doesn't do it after, and using "mafia" to mean "mafia-team" makes perfect sense in that one post of his, especially given the suicide comment.

I

use mafia and scum synonymously throughout the thread, and because I do that, I always refer to the mafia team as "mafia team" or "mafia-mafia" or "mafia-scum." It's the people who DON'T use them interchangeably, like dram, who don't modify the term. And I do NOT buy his, "it's still suicide if they're on the other team, because once one is found you can find the other through connections." I've read it a zillion times, and I think he is saying "mafia team" when he says "mafia."

Quite honestly, dram-scum is the read I can actually draw up the most solid evidence for, between what I think is werewolf scum meta, and what I'm reading as a lie on dram's part. Reck is holding me back here today, and I'm trying to believe my interpretation is wrong -- but I CANNOT drop this. If Kise flips town, PLEASE LOOK AT DRAM.

[Purple Orange]

I could make a case off of PO after what I skimmed in #1806.

LOL, I'm curious. You'll have to tell me postgame if you don't want to say stuff now.

[Purple Orange]

You never said why you voted me in the first/second place though. You're not helping here and i tried to help us both...... so NOW you think ash is scum? Im not switching votes again damn it. My reason 4 thinking u and purp are town is due to Ash's craptastic contradictions, which led me to sussing him

I'm either right, or I've been confirmation-biasing the hell out of Day 5.5. If it's the latter, my apologies to you guys. I can't do it. dram is the only other person I'd rather lynch right now, and I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen today.

Concerning Grey - other than werewolf, he's the only other person in this thread I've played with before. I liked his play in that game, and he liked mine, and we had a rollicking fun scumhunting party until he got killed night 1. It's why he's been wary of me, and I of him...but I think it's also what made him willing to take a chance and back me earlier today. *shrug* Or he's scum, knew Espy/me would probably be lynched anyway today (10 other people voted for us earlier today, and the rest were fine with us dying, for goodness sake), and was looking for some towncred. Considering it's one thing I suspect you and/or llamateam of doing, I'm not putting it beyond the realm of possibility. I've been doing my best not to flip out on him today, though.


((ftr, Grey stalled the lynch today, but it was Reck who really allowed a counterwagon to happen, by adding the weight of someone from a third pair to the Mariyta/Traj wagon. Without that, Espy/me would probably still have been quicklynched. At that point, Espy/me were the ONLY other people with votes on anyone else, aside from Grey, and Grey still had us as one of the three pairs he was happy to lynch)).

[Purple Orange]

Oh yikes, this is finally over? (It got too depressing to keep up with after I got told who the scum teams were). GAAAAAAH. AND I HAD DRAMONIC PEGGED THAT DAY, TOO.

My apologies Kise -- I thought either you or dram had to be scum, and I didn't go with lynch all liars when I freaking SHOULD have. :p (I was hoping to high heaven someone else would pick up the dram LAL baton, but once FATE came in...yeah). If we'd killed dram early, before FATE had a chance to get in here, and while we still had a couple of mislynches to realize "hum...if Reck read dram that wrongly, maybe he's the other scum team." "....maybe town might have pulled through. But I dunno. Reck probably still would been able to pull off a win, and talked his way out of it. *tips hat*

[Purple Orange]

VAT OF ACID, GREYICE.

A

FUCKING

VAT

OF

ACID.

^Ohyeah, this. Never let peoples off the hook out of hopeless romanticism again, kthnx?

Actually, I didn't "pretend" to be clueless about the night phases. I just hadn't read my role PM thoroughly enough yet. And that whole AIM convo thing? I never lied - that seriously never happened.

Oy, thank goodness. I was REALLY kicking myself for a while over that.