Open 278: Empking's Five Player

[Cthulhu]

Not for a while. I think we should all have a good idea of our suspicions at the start of D2.

How do you plan to get a good idea of suspicions?

I guess a no lynch would be a good idea but professing it in the first post doesn't seem to be conducive to helping the town.

[Cthulhu]

@Cthulhu: Are you an alt? You don't have to say who of, although that would be nice too given some of the things you've already said.

I am but you probably don't know me, I played a few open games and a few newbie games about two years ago but had a break because of some exams I had.

Thinking scum would never push a lynch on a day like this and unthinking town might so this would've been little more than a distracting tell if it had been allowed to develop. Explained suspicions and cases are how scum-hunting will work on this day and you don't need votes to do this.

I see but I was just wondering how discussion would start to begin with. I have to admit I wouldn't have picked up on it in my first post, I probably would have made a random vote then read the rules and took another look at the setup so I would have fallen for the trap, but that's mainly inexperience.

Wow, Scraps, you're REALLY reaching here.

Scraps is but then again we have to get talking somehow even if we do start out with outlandish ideas, it will enivitably lead somewhere. Unless we go with your idea of the questions but I think that oppurtunity has passed now anyway.

[Cthulhu]

I've got an idea: Why don't we vote for who's going to be investigated?

What's the use in killing them and then investigating them? Unless I have misunderstood the nature of this game.

[Cthulhu]

I meant instead of voting we vote for the investigation. In retrospect, it's not actually that great an idea.

I don't think your idea is that good because the mafia could encourage the unknown cop to investigate someone they know is town. Your slight case of self doubt and backpedalling doesn't look that good either.

[Cthulhu]

There seems a contradiction that he jumps on bv310 for rethinking something to do with how to play the game in the set-up while also saying he would've done the same thing (over a different issue, of course, but still similar enough that there is a contradiction if he finds one a town action and one a scum action).

I still don't really get this case however I will try and guess at a defence. When you say I jump on bv310, I presume you are referring to me me questioning him about his suggestion at the top of page two. I asked him to clarify his suggestion and then when he did I stated that I thought it was a bad idea, which bv310 agreed with. Since then though it has shown to be a good idea. I was questioning the validity of his idea. On the previous page I stated that I wouldn't have looked at the set up straight away had bvoigt not mentioned that we should no lynch, and that I would have voted first before going back and looking more closely. If you case rests on the fact that I portray bv310's questioning of the set up as scummy and my reappraisal as town then your case is weaker than I first thought.

If it isn't this then please clarify your argument. However, I wasn't portraying bv310's actions as scummy, I was merely questioning his idea and then stating that I thought it was bad. It isn't scummy to have a bad idea, it is however to backpedal so quickly. Also I wasn't portraying my own actions as a town action; I was saying that I would have done that out of inexperience.

[Cthulhu]

Cthulhu's posts seem to be focusing on defending himself and asking meaningless (not truly meaningless, just non-scumhunting related) questions rather than scumhunting. Also:

If it isn't this then please clarify your argument. However, I wasn't portraying bv310's actions as scummy, I was merely questioning his idea and then stating that I thought it was bad. It isn't scummy to have a bad idea, it is however to backpedal so quickly. Also I wasn't portraying my own actions as a town action; I was saying that I would have done that out of inexperience.

You weren't portraying his actions as scummy, yet you though it was scummy to backpedal so quickly? And as for the last sentence, the point is that you, if town, know that you are town. If you would rethink your own actions as town, why would you call someone scummy for rethinking?

CSI: Cthulhu

Your first point is just silly. My last post was solely in defence of myself but the others have been okay; you even acknowledge that my questioning of bv310 was useful. You need to read my posts more carefully and stop misrepresenting them. I made it clear in my last post that I don't think it is scummy to have a bad idea. I didn't think it was scummy for bv310 to suggest his idea that we thought was bad, what was scummy though was his backpedalling. The two are different things. I can see that your last point has a slight degree of merit however I think comparing my actions with bv310's isn't credible because they are too different. My rethinking was planning to make a random vote and then looking back at the set up and rules, this is because it is convention for starting a game and I would do that irrespective of my role. bv310's action is different because he backpedalled so quickly, but when the idea was shown to be good with the statistics, he was on side again. This could be seen as flippant and oppurtunistic. The actions are too differnet for a comparison between them to be valid. Your vague assertion that all actions that constitute rethinking are the same and therefore should be treated as either town or scum actions is peculiar. I don't really understand it. Overall I'd say your case is fairly weak and that you've decided to instruct the cop to investigate me quite prematurely, we are only on the second page, is that enough to get such solid reads as yours?

The activity level has sort of dropped. Especially with bviogt and brokenscraps very kindly taking turns to question me, and Stefunny and bv310 fading into the background. I would like to know what you two think since I already have two 'cop votes' against me (Stefunny and bv310 that is).

[Cthulhu]

I made it clear in my last post that I don't think it is scummy to have a bad idea. I didn't think it was scummy for bv310 to suggest his idea that we thought was bad, what was scummy though was his backpedalling. The two are different things.

At one point, you said, "I wasn't portraying bv310's actions as scummy."

In other words, you didn't think anything he did was scummy.

But now you're saying that his backpedaling was scummy. So why can't you keep your story straight?

You are misrepresenting me again. The bolded isn't true. In Post 27 I say his idea is bad (which isn't scummy), then I mention his backpedalling (which is). Then read Post 39 and Post 43 again where I've explained the same thing twice before. At no point did I mean what you said I meant in the above quote. Your attempts to twist my words and confuse the situation further is quite suspect.

You were going to make a random vote, but decided it against it because it would be a poor strategic decision regardless of alignment. bv310 had a different idea, but also changed his mind based on its strategic merits. It would have been anti-town not to change his mind, just like it would have been anti-town to random vote. So yeah, I do think these two examples of rethinking boil down to the same thing.

Your case is ridiculous. I didn't decide against random voting because of it's strategic weakness, I didn't do it because of your post; had you not made it obvious that a no lynch was the way to go, I would not have noticed until afterwards. This is another example of misrepresentation. I don't get how it would be anti town not to change his mind, his idea was fundamentally a good one, so to stick with it would have been good. If your case rests on this then it is terrible. It's very scummy that you should be pushing this case so hard (and voting for the cop to investigate me), especially as this case was first raised by brokenscraps in Post 36.

I know it's not a great case, but I don't think bv310 is scum (just a feeling) and Scraps isn't scum, so honestly I think it HAS to be Cthulu and BVoigt.

Do you have any evidence for your feeling? Targeting me and bvoigt as the scum team seems sort of opportunistic.

Due to lack of posting I'm wondering if we are going to get much more out of this day. I know I haven't really helped, but I don't really feel there is a whole lot to go off of yet. I think Cthulhu is the best person to investigate at this point, so we could probably begin voting for No Lynches, yes?

Vote: No Lynch

No. You seem very eager to want to end the day with an investigation on me, especially since you just breezed in after lurking, and joined the bandwagon, while casually citing 'a feeling' as a reason why another player is most likely town. This seems very suspect indeed.

[Cthulhu]

Total misrepresentation. There's no way that "I wasn't portraying bv310's actions as scummy" could mean "I didn't think anything he did was scummy."

I agree, it is total misrepresentation again. You have taken it out of context; read Post 39. If you isolate a quote like that and then paraphrase it, so it looks like it has a different meaning, it's called misrepresentation. I have stated several times that I thought bv310's backpedalling was scummy, therefore your unnecessary paraphrase is incorrect and misrepresenting what I said. What the quote actually refers to is post 25 where I ask bv310 about his idea, the second part of the sentence (which you conveniently failed to quote) refers to post 27, where I do portray his actions as scummy. I admit that my sentence was poorly structured.

Your case is ridiculous. I didn't decide against random voting because of it's strategic weakness, I didn't do it because of your post; had you not made it obvious that a no lynch was the way to go, I would not have noticed until afterwards. This is another example of misrepresentation.

Then why did you decide against random voting?

The answer is in the quote. I didn't do it because you posted and made it clear that a no lynch was the best stratergy. Had I been the first to post I would have random voted then looked at the set up.

It's very scummy that you should be pushing this case so hard (and voting for the cop to investigate me), especially as this case was first raised by brokenscraps in Post 36.

I feel like this sentence is OMGUS, plain and simple. Why is it scummy for me to push a case on you?

It isn't, you are welcome to push a case on me, but it becomes scummy when your case is so weak that it's a waste of time.

bv310 is lurking badly, his last post with any content in it was Post 33, over a week ago. That is the sort of thing that town players do though right?

Mod: Could you prod bv310.

[Cthulhu]

I think it helps the town more to make a somewhat weak case than it does to focus on defending yourself and do no scumhunting at all.

I don't know about that. However, you admit that your case on me is weak, but I am still your top suspect? To justify your 'cop vote' on me, would you mind backing it up with some evidence?

I really think Cthulhu is scum, but I'm not sure WHICH BV is more likely to be scum mate. Therefore an investigation of one of them seems most logical to me.

Did any of that make sense?

No. What makes you so sure that I'm scum? You've also conviniently ignored my questions from post 60.

Read over the thread to see if anything stands out, but honestly nothing sticks out to me as blatantly scummy. Going by my gut, I'm willing to say Cthulu/BVoigt as a scumteam, although I'm much more confident in nmy Cthulu read, so I'd like BVoigt to be investigated tonight.

Anyway, I have class right now, so I'll go over the thread again and see if nothing sticks out to me.

You're lurking and bandwagoning too then?

I don't mind being investigated, if you guys are going to insist on suspecting me then I am glad to become a confirmed townie tomorrow. However I would quite like to see either bvoigt or Stefunny investigated. I don't want a no lynch yet though, bv310 and Stefunny have hardly contributed and bvoigt's case has been weak so I think we could get more out of this day.

[Cthulhu]

Unless someone scumslips badly, any case on page 3 will be weak. I think I've given a fair amount of evidence for this point in the game.

If you concede that your case is weak, and I haven't made a bad scumslip then why are you willing to waste an investigation on me, and end the day now. If you've given a fair amount of evidence, you won't mind quoting it.

Come on guys, we need to either talk or decide who's being investigated and no lynch and end this day.

Are you being serious? I'm trying to get you to talk (answer my question).

[Cthulhu]

How is that a question that you think will get any semblance of a real answer? No, I'm not "lurking and bandwagoning". I'm voting for my top suspect. Whether they have the most votes or not is unimportant to me.

I have got an answer from you. You've claimed to not have been lurking or bandwagoning, which is interesting. Also you are not voting for your top suspect, you are encouraging the rest of us to, after hardly contributing to the game at all.

A weak vote is better than a vote with no case behind it at all. As for the last sentence: feel free to ISO me.

If only you were providing a weak vote. I did ISO you and I haven't found any case against me that I haven't explained away.

Cthulhu at this point a "feeling" about who is scum is all I really have to go on. I think most of us agree that Cthulhu really seems like he is scum though. It seems like every one of your posts is defense and no actual scum hunting. Any of your candidates for being investigated seem to only be candidates because of OMGUS. I would be happy with either a Bvoigt or a Bv310 investigation. Regardless of who we hit, town or scum, we should be able to figure it out. I still think Bvoigt and Cthulu were really going after each other but I still stand by the idea that it would be best for scum to direct town to their scum mate in order to look town.

Perhaps if you asked some questions and participated in the game, you'd have a bit more than a feeling. I'm not sure whether most of you think I'm scum, but the fact remains that you haven't presented any evidence to validate your accusation. Your temerity astounds me; I have been scumhunting but have also defended myself, you've done neither. I suggested that bvoigt or Stefunny be investigated, only bvoigt has attacked from those two, so you're claim is rubbish. Why do you want bv310 investigated? I thought you suspected me, since you attacked me, and haven't attacked bv310 (In post 49 you said you thought bv310 wasn't scum, then in post 55 you want me investigated for no reason, and in post 66 you want bvoigt investigated because you think I'm scum, and now in post 80 you want bv310 investigated again, for no reason).

Naturally, since I'd prefer to get a guilty result, I'd rather have bv310 investigated.

In post 69, you said I was your top suspect, with bv310 your neutral suspect. Why are you now wanting your neutral suspect to be investigated? Is it an admission that your case on me was rubbish? Why didn't you suspect Stefunny when both bv310 and Stefunny have been equally as apathetic?

I don't want the day to end yet.

[Cthulhu]

You are still my top suspect, but the choice for investigation seems to be between me and bv310. I don't suspect Stefunny because she wasn't aware that scum could only kill on even nights.

Your first point is sort of Meh. On your second point, is that all it takes to convince you? You unconditionally think she's town because of one thing? Sounds a bit convenient.

Also, that last quote was out of context, so I added the next sentence back in.

It wasn't out of context, the second line doesn't mean anything, unless you're going to admit to being scum.

If the investigation snabs an innocent then this discussion will continue with more info tomorrow, if it gets guilty we'll still hopefully discuss for a bit before lynching, what do we get from dragging things on?

I appreciate that, it's just I'm struggling to pick someone to have investigated.

[Cthulhu]

I don't mind either player being investigated, so I'll vote

CSI: bvoigt

too, now it's settled anyway.

Seeing as the discussion is dead, with Stefunny going away, and bv310 lurking again, I'll reluctantly

Vote No Lynch

.

[Cthulhu]

SO I'm trying to figure out the numbers in my head right now. We know Bvoigt is scum so do we lynch him end of day after trying to figure out who his buddy is? If I'm thinking this out right we technically are in mylo, so we'd have to be sure if we were to lynch somebody OTHER than Bvoigt.

If we lynch bvoigt today, and brokenscraps gets killed tonight, we'll have two town against one scum, and be have to lynch correctly to win. If we choose not to lynch bvoigt today, and risk going for another player, if they are town, and brokenscraps is killed tonight we will have lost by the next day without doubt. If they are scum though we will win, again without doubt. I don't think this approach is worth the risk, and therefore would prefer to lynch bvoigt today.

I'll re read the thread and build a case tomorrow, when I'm not quite as exhausted.

[Cthulhu]

I'm a miller, I swear!

That actually made me laugh. Thanks.

At the beginning of the game, bvoigt and Stefuuny had a minor disagreement, which might be a very small case of bussing. Then in post 40, bviogt declared Stefunny town, leaving only myself and bv310 as possible suspects. In the same post, he disregarded bv310 as not doing 'anything overly scummy', and then jumped on the case made by scraps in post 36. These two posts are very similar. Then in post 49, Stefunny builds a very weak case and then asserts that she thinks bvoigt is scum, along with me, while bv310 isn't, based on a feeling. This seems scummy on it's own, but especially so when bvoigt flipped scum because it seems co-ordinated with bviogt's earlier bussing. In post 55, Stefunny suggests I should be investigated, and then in post 66, she suggests that bviogt should, while giving no evidence to validate the change. in post 77, Stefunny makes up some rubbish to incriminate me, while interestingly suggesting that most of the other players think that I'm scum.

However, when it comes to confirming suspicions for the cop, Stefunny is okay with bv310 being investigated, after thinking for the entire game that he was town. bvoigt wants bv310 investigated. And then when it is even between bv310 and bvoigt, she goes for bvoigt and denies me the opportunity to choose. This inconsistently from skipping from a candidate whose been seen as town for the entire game, to bviogt who she thinks is scum is very suspect.

bv310 though has played ridiculously. In his fifteen posts, he briefly contributed to the discussion of statistics and then raised the point about voting for the investigation. Aside from that, he gives excuses for lurking and ironically encourages the rest of us to contribute more. And then finally chooses either me or bvoigt as guilty before finally choosing bvoigt but only because it was only him or bvoigt.

I think it's fairly obv we are going to end up lynching Bvoigt end of day but I'd like to evaluate who his partner is before that. I'd like to hear from Cthulhu as to why it's bv310 and not him instead of restating the numbers game.

I don't think so, none of you have presented me with a case that stands up to any sort of scrutiny. I don't need to defend myself, especially when compared to bv310's play. Try making a case on me, or defending yourself.

It is kinda late now and I'm tired so I'll have another look tomorrow.

[Cthulhu]

Cthulhu I stated quite a few times my logic behind the investigation vote. It feels like you don't read other peoples posts thoroughly, or you don't care, or you don't comprehend.

There is nothing I like more than being patronized, thanks.

If YOU are town you would have felt the same way. The fact that you didn't really really makes me think you are NOT TOWN. I'm still working on comparing your interactions with Bvoigts and bv310s interactions with bvoigt. I'm also kind of waiting for bv310 to come back.

And if I was scum? I'm town, so if I choose to investigate someone I thought was town and there were, that would leave me, the confirmed townie and the cop as the town. Even though I know I'm town I wouldn't neccesarily be able convince the confirmed players that I am on their side, especially as I am two against one in terms of unconfirmed players. This would create lylo; if I was lynched, the either of the other players would be killed and the game would finish. On the other hand, if I voted to investigate a player I thought was scum and succeded then we'd have one confirmed town, one confirmed scum, two unconfirmed townies and the last scum. I would still have to convince the same number of people to succeed in a lynch but this situation is mylo. It seems to me that it would be more advantageous to investigate scum, and give ourselves an extra day to find the last scum, as opposed to your theory.

My defense is based on my stupidity and not paying close enough attention to the set up. Obviously if I was scum the info would have been in my PM thread and it would have been hard for me to ignore. Yes, I'm pretty much claiming VI... If it wasn't for others pointing it out I probably still wouldn't understand the set up because I'm a dumb ass. =(

You can believe it or not, but trying to launch a case against me when bv310 is definitely more of a threat is just silly.

That is a very weak defence. Why is it silly to attack you instead of bv310? I agree with brokenscrap's assessment by the way.

PLUS we weren't voting to end the day so when Cthulhu says I voted and didn't give him a chance it really didn't make any sense. He could have just as well disagreed with me and voted bv310 and we could have discussed it. It was HIS vote that achieved the no lynch, he didn't have to end the day.

What's your point? I was trying to get you guys to talk so I could try and work out who was scum, in hindsight I should have been making aimlessly vauge statements without evidence until the day ended. Besides you'd chosen to investigate bvoigt so even if I'd voted for bv310 it wouldn't have mattered, and as you were not answering my questions there was nothing else to do but end the day.

[Cthulhu]

You know, I can't beleive it.

I know you're no longer here brokenscraps, but it wasn't a smart move to vote. Stefunny you seemed very scummy at the end of the day, by asking for bv310's replacement while simaltaneously voting to end the day? What is that about? Especially since I had once again asked you questions, which you seem to ignored.

bv310, you are the worst player I've played with in a very long time. Your case is ridiculous.

I'll vote for bvoigt, but I think this day can get a bit more info in it first.

Are you kidding? You've stalled this game so much, and now you have the termerity to want more information.

Really? What else is there to do at this point? I know I'm Town, and I have a strong Town read on you, so he's the only option left.

Do you want to explain it then?

[Cthulhu]

Wow, I am retarded. I'm sorry I'm getting games mixed up. I am done with this game, it is obviously dead locked and I would like to end it. It irritates me that Cthulhu logged on today but never responded to my question. Bv310s avoidance of this game through it's duration also irritates me. Therefore I am going to just end it and hope I'm right.

Vote: Cthulhu

Sorry about that, I checked before I went out, and didn't get back till late. Well done bv310.

[Cthulhu]

Pretty sure the only good thing I did this game was choose the right NK.

Yeah, you didn't play great, but you managed to convince Stefunny, somehow, so well done.