New Designer Mafia (Victor(s) are crowned)

[Olinea]

Hmmm, who should I vote for?

(shrug)

Vote: ender241

In my last game I played we didn't speedlynch ender241, so this game we probably will.

Xalxe, do you mean role names AND functions or just names?

[Olinea]

I guess I'm open to it.

[Olinea]

#1:

Detonator

. Starts the game with a bomb. Each night, the player holding the bomb may pass it to a player of their choice. At any point during the daytime, the Detonator may type

Detonate

to kill the person holding the bomb.

#2:

Super Vanilla Townie

. Twice the night actions of a Vanilla Townie. trollface.jpg.

#3:

Mafia Matchmaker

. One-shot ability to pick two players and make them Lovers. Selected players are bulletproof on the night they are chosen.

During signups I changed #2 to:

Artist

- When the Artist is killed, the next night's actions must be submitted in picture form.

[Olinea]

Zora, I like pictures more than video, just FYI

Also, I will not fullclaim submitted roles just yet, but I've already given a hint.

Then what's the motivation behind asking others to claim role names if you aren't going to do so yourself?

[Olinea]

Point taken.

I suppose it's up to the others, but zoraster's point of limiting scum fakeclaims is a huge plus for doing it sooner rather than later in my book, I hadn't thought of it. Even if one person dies without sharing their roles, the validity of all claims is called into question.

[Olinea]

Scum are the only ones that benefit from this. It creates chaos and uncertainty.

I don't see any chaos. I don't see any uncertainty. Elaborate on this -- I don't see the drastic consequences of it.

[Olinea]

ok
this wagon is fucking horrible

How about giving an explanation instead of... that?

[Olinea]

and I see where' he's coming from.

Then why did you post your roles AFTER he made that statement?

[Olinea]

chesses comments are as stupid as normal.

I can't tell if this is ad hom or basic mudslinging.

Detonate.

[Olinea]

Xalxe: how did you give us a clue as to your submitted role? I was assuming you were breadcrumbing a "I submitted Officer Rex Mannington" claim in your first post but apparently no...

I spy a rolefish.

Unvote: ender241
Vote: brokenscraps

[Olinea]

Oh, crap,

submitted

role, never mind.

Unvote: brokenscraps

[Olinea]

Wooo triple post.

Also, is there no cops in this game? Is that what the post four means from the mod?

A standard cop, not unless there are multiple scumteams. I sent in a role cop, though.

Where'd the speculation of multiple scumteams come from? And why would it have any sort of impact on the presence of a Cop-like role?

[Olinea]

Where'd the speculation of multiple scumteams come from?

The post of mine you just quoted, and even then, I don't think it should be seriously considered right now.

Allow me to rephrase.

Why do you assume 2 scumteams instead of just 1? The natural assumption, I'd think, is that there's only 1 scumteam.

Unless you're on a scumteam which has less members than anticipated.

[Olinea]

I am not a detonator.

Mods might have changed that mechanic to PMing.

[Olinea]

Typically, daykillers seem like they'd have to post in-thread. Flavor strongly suggests a Detonator.

If it's a Detonator, the only one who could have pulled it off was danakillsu when he quoted my post and said "Olinea isn't the detonator", I'm not sure if that would have counted. Come to think of it, the "the" rather than "an" tipped me off but wasn't enough to put a vote down.

At this point we're speculating on role mechanics and we should progress as usual, but I've got my eye on dana for now.

[Olinea]

Of course, there's the whole "vote count between the bolded Detonate and the kill sequence" argument that would (mostly) invalidate that, but WIFOM on whether the mods caught that at first glance or not.

[Olinea]

OLINEA, YOU BOLDED THE WORD DETONATE.

Vote: Olinea

I am completely aware, thank you.

I'd think the vote count between the bolding and the death sequence would be indicative that something was done between the vote count and the death.

[Olinea]

Also, as dana pointed out, technically I first did it in Post #9 which leaves a roughly 24 hour grace period of several vote counts BEFORE the death. As such either the mods are not on their game or I'm not a Detonator.

[Olinea]

fourth:
VOTE: Olinea.

I'm pretty sure I refuted the Detonator thing, so is your vote built off of something else?

[Olinea]

Olinea, you have to be joking. You bolded the word detonate, the mod most likely missed it the first time, but the, suddenly, two people died.

I just want to hang you because you're now lying to our faces red handed. Give it up and die.

No, I'm not joking.

I can give evidence that I'm not a Detonator but it requires a player who hasn't posted in the thread yet, and will most likely result in a fullclaim, which I'd rather not do, obviously.

Is "the first time" in reference to Post #9 or the second one which was more obvious?

[Olinea]

If I can prove that I'm not a Detonator, will everyone take their votes off?

Because there appears to be no actual way to defend myself without a claim. However, the person who can help prove it still hasn't posted yet.

@WhenInRome:
It was in response to dana's "ITT we learn Olinea is not the Detonator", hence the little tongue smiley.

@brokenscraps:
That's because I didn't think "oh shit, I accidentally detonated". I'm reacting the way I am because I'm not a Detonator, and as such I didn't even think bolding that would have any effect. It didn't even cross my mind what I wrote that that it would have any sort of effect, and as such I assumed the two events were unrelated.

So let me say again: if the wagon on me is entirely composed of people under the impression that I'm a Detonator, and I can

prove

to near mod-confirmation status that I am

not

, will you take your votes off?

[Olinea]

I'm not talking about a modkill.

I don't play that way.

[Olinea]

Also when I read the flavor it did seem more Detonator-like than Daykill-like, so iunno. It's flavor speculation which shouldn't play a huge part in the game.

[Olinea]

tl;dr: Olinea, lets assume that you are a TOWN Detonator. Saying "whoops, I fucked up. Yes, I'm a Detonator and I killed the wrong person ._." would gain COMPLETE understanding to me but you are at the point where you are CONSTANTLY LYING.

Olinea, I know you're rather new to mafia, but not entirely new, so I'll ask you this: Have you heard of a Lynch all Liars policy?

I've been going by Lynch All Liars ever since my first game.

Please answer my question/s Is your entire case based around the assumption that I am a Detonator?

If so, when I prove that I am

not

a Detonator, is this grounds to remove your vote?

When I was talking about dana being the only other one able to pull off the kill, I was obviously excluding myself.

@Tasky
What other evidence against me is there? Share it, I honestly would like to know the full case on me.

[Olinea]

Mods: Can we get a prod on Furcolow?

~Furcolow was prodded to let him know the game started already. If he has not posted by tomorrow I will officially prod him and others who have not yet posted

Yeah, he's the one who can clear me.

@DH: How is that indicative of lying?

[Olinea]

Alright, so this is the only way to get the wagon off of my back -- I've seen what happens when DemonHybrid tunnells and it ain't good.

Furcolow, vote for me.

[Olinea]

Alright, so this is the only way to get the wagon off of my back -- I've seen what happens when DemonHybrid tunnells and it ain't good.

Furcolow, vote for me.

Olinea, so help me god, if you're lying as town and you want to die just to prove a point, you have no clue how angry I'll be.

Sigh.

Seeing as how this is inevitable now that I've aked Furcolow to vote for me, I'll fullclaim.

Claim:

Yosarianite

At the beginning of the game, and every night, I may choose one player. That player will not be able to vote for me for the day. I chose Furcolow as he is the only one in the game I've played with before -- Rivertown Mafia, in which he accidentally mis-voted me in LyLo for a quickhammer. I mostly chose him since I was working off of literally 0 knowledge and he's the only one I have game ties to.

I crumbed the claim in my first post when I put (shrug), which is Yosarian2's custom title.

When Furcolow votes for me today, it won't count, hence why I asked him to vote for me. I'm not giving up and I'm not suicidal. I'm trying to stop this damn wagon which is under the assumption that I'm a Detonator and went after chesskid but this appears to be the only way to prove I'm not.

If anyone would like to confirm submitting the Yosarianite as a role, please do.

[Olinea]

I'm claiming to get DemonHybrid to stop tunnelling on me.

Of course it's not going to be precedent or anything.

[Olinea]

Fair enough.

You're only confirming my role. I intend to confirm my alignment with my play.

In the meantime let me play catchup with the other stuff that's been going on.

[Olinea]

Then vote for someone else and watch your vote function as normally, then unvote, vote for me, and you'll find you can't vote me.

Also,

The fact you have this knowledge, to me, seems like to much.

Which knowledge? The knowledge of my role?

FoS: Xalxe and Zoraster for that reason.

Technically Zoraster brought the idea up in the pre-game thread before the setup was made, so you really can't say there was scum motivation in that.

Using an FoS without a vote indicates unwillingness to vote. Only scum are unwilling to vote.

This is untrue. I've never been scum, but I tend to be very conservative in voting. I'd think a tendency to be unwilling to vote reflects on the player's style rather than their alignment.

[Olinea]

I'm claiming to get DemonHybrid to stop tunnelling on me.

I assume from this post that you think DH is town. What makes you think that?

I read a past Town game of DemonHybrid's and his behavior is mostly the same. He found someone who he thought was scummy and his arguments and misrepping against them almost got him lynched. I'm not saying he's close to being lynched but when I saw him as scum he was more broad and calculating. Mostly a meta argument.

Olinea would have been safe had he just came out and said "I though Chesskid was scummy, so I blew him up". But Olinea cant use that line because he came out of the gate swinging and ready to play mad bomber right away.

I still want to know why Olinea would post a bolded detonate twice. TWICE!

|
|
V

@WhenInRome:
It was in response to dana's "ITT we learn Olinea is not the Detonator", hence the little tongue smiley.

[Olinea]

First things first, I'm a dude, and it's been underneath my avatar for months now. Not a girl.

Olinea is very very likely SCUM and not because the detonator stupid stuff which is PRETTY OBVIOUS she is not, its becuase she is full of scumtells. Im not liking his justification for random voting in post 5, his sheeping to the claiming strategy in post 7, and more importantly she is freaking scared of Demon Hybrid, like too worried of being caught. Assuming Olineatown, I dont know where she got the conclusion that DH was tunneling townie instead of considering him as a scumbag trying to get advantage of her, which is the normal townie reasoning. This strongly suggest Olineascum.

Oh, for FUCK’S sake. Suddenly the justification behind an RVS vote is scummy? This has to be a joke.

I’m scared of DemonHybrid pushing so hard on me for the same reason you wouldn’t like it if someone had been posting nonstop “you’re lying” posts against you. Nobody likes to be pressured, especially as town because you’re unsure if the person in question is a misguided townie who should be directing their attention towards scum or scum trying to get a mislynch in. I’ll link you to the game so you can see for yourself what I mean when I say I’m scared of what would happen should DH go into full-on tunnel mode. Right here. Read through Day 1 and watch DemonHybrid vs. ready2rock, then come back and tell me I’m foolish for not wanting to be on the receiving end of that.

@zoraster
There really isn’t a pronunciation of it, so whatever you want.

Regarding Furcolow and my claim, honestly, at this point I feel as though if you forced Furcolow to vote for the other 20 players in the game, and his vote shows up for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, you're still going to call my claim bullshit. I don't know what's the cause of the daykill but if it isn't dana, it isn't a Detonator.

[Olinea]

Hmmm.

Actually, if dana is a potential Detonator for quoting the bolded Detonate on page 1, technically zoraster is also on that list. Chesskid did it too but he's been flipped.

PRE-EDIT:
I quoted the exact PM I sent to the mods to send my roles. During submissions I saw Matchmaker as much more liable to be a scum role than town. Detonator could be both and I left it as such.

[Olinea]

Nobody likes to be pressured, especially as town because you’re unsure if the person in question is a misguided townie who should be directing their attention towards scum or scum trying to get a mislynch in.

why were you treating DemonHybrid as tunneling town then?

ill watch the video tonight, from work i cant. :S

Previously mentioned meta argument. Haven't gotten to know his scum game that much but from what I've seen it matches a town meta more than scum.

[Olinea]

Yeah, my claim was early since I didn't want things to avalanche or anything.

I'm pretty sure it's someone on the wagon that killed chesskid.

What do you mean by this?

PRE-EDIT:
Furcolow, if you'd care to vote for others and watch it go through, I hope this would be the

tiniest

additional bit of evidence that the claim is legit.

[Olinea]

I like the theory of there being a mafia matchmaker but we know that olinea's role is not this matchmaker or the detonator for that matter. We need to reevaluate why we believe him to be scum.

Why is there a "we" in this? Your ISO reveals no prior suspicion of me.

[Olinea]

The issue I'm having with them being Detonators is the same argument I was using earlier -- the buffer vote count between the post and the explosion. I'm not holding a double standard here, so I may chalk this up to just being a PM'ed daykill.

[Olinea]

Is it scummy for me to not watch the videos?

It's scummy of you to dodge my earlier question directed towards you.

It's anti-town to keep yourself uninformed.

[Olinea]

I like the theory of there being a mafia matchmaker but we know that olinea's role is not this matchmaker or the detonator for that matter. We need to reevaluate why we believe him to be scum.

Why is there a "we" in this? Your ISO reveals no prior suspicion of me.

Is this the question you speak of? I consider myself part of the town. We=town. Most of the town seems to think you are scum so I used "we". Was this really a legit question?

Completely legit. The "we" in this case refers to people who were suspicious of me. You were not.

Your answer prompts an obvious follow-up question.

How do you know the people pushing my lynch were Town, and not scum looking for an easy wagon?

[Olinea]

That's very interesting. I'd more or less been assume the mechanic was changed to PM.

@Olinea: did you specify that the player must type "detonate", in bold, in the thread, to set off the bomb? Please check the exact wording of your role submission (but don't quote it here).

I specified that, yes.

Is it scummy for me to not watch the videos?

It's scummy of you to dodge my earlier question directed towards you.

It's anti-town to keep yourself uninformed.

We're not all blessed with the information

you

have, Olinea

You CAN be, if you watch zoraster's video, which is the information in question.

How do you know the people pushing my lynch were Town, and not scum looking for an easy wagon?

Olinea (5) - Tasky, WhenInRome, brokenscraps, Internet Stranger, Zajnet

Those were the people voting you at the time of my post. You were a big topic of discussion at the time which prompted me to give my post. Out of the people talking about you and those voting for you, not all could be scum. There is just no way.

Alright, fair enough. I hadn't realized the wagon was that small at the time.

But, Olinea is scum anyway. To see why, go back to my post 188. I clearly state in that post that I have "a REALLY GOOD REASON to believe he is scum". (after the post 147/post 149 exchange) Now, that is not just some accusation that comes from nothing, but it's clear it has to do with some extra-information I possess. Now, as seen by post 191 Olinea has clearly seen my post. Yet he choose to ignore me. I think this is conclusive evidence that he is scum. why?
what does a townie do if someone accuses them stating to have some really strong reason which goes beyond basic scumhunting? they would know that information is wrong, and would wonder why. The very first thing a townie would do is to vote me. Taking this to an extreme, wouldn't you vote a cop who declared a guilty on you?

Would you rather I asked where you got the information so you could interpret that as a rolefish?

Your reason is not strong at ALL. You said you have reason to believe I am scum. Where is the strength in that? Where is the persuasion in it? If your information is based on an infallible PR which functioned at the beginning of the game, or during the day, then I'd take a look at it. But simply saying

PS: People, can we PLEASE lynch Olinea? I have a REALLY GOOD REASON to believe he is scum (which is completely unrelated to the Detonator stuff.)

Is not strong reasoning, and appears to be more of a gambit than anything else.

@ender: The “uh” and “um”s are just a result of not working off of a script, and reacting off the top of your head. I don’t think that’s indicative of lying.

[Olinea]

I don't know why I haven't asked this earlier, but

Did anyone send in a role that functions as a Daykill when you PM it to the Mod?

[Olinea]

Hey Olinea, what exactly are you expecting to happen with that question?

Yea, whoever daykilled Chesskid, please confess so that we can lynch you. Even if you just sent in the role,you'll be suspicious enough top lynch anyways. I know that you probably would have confessed by now if you were town, buts ok, come on out and confess so we can lynch you.

Reread the question. I'm asking if anyone sent in a role that functions that way, not if someone USED a role like that.

[Olinea]

@Olinea: can you confirm that there was no clause in your submitted role about the bomb being passed pregame?

There was not a clause like that.

However, I was able to choose Furcolow as my target for my role before the game started, so I think if there's a Detonator they would have been able to give the bomb to chesskid before Day 1.

[Olinea]

Would you rather I asked where you got the information so you could interpret that as a rolefish?

I think a townie would have started by voting me.

I'm conservative with my vote. I don't vote for somebody because they give an

extremely

vague message saying they have a reason to suspect me. That's practically OMGUS; it reeks of an "Oh, you found me out? You die now" kind of deal. PRs are fallible and I don't take them as conclusive evidence of anything, especially not on Day 1. What you were doing basically amounted to "Vote him, he's scum" and I ignore things like that.

[Olinea]

Olinea's Question:

Why did you pick Furcolow as the one who couldn't vote for you?

Woooo backstory.

My last game before this, Rivertown Mafia, I was a Gunsmith who had managed to survive to 5p LyLo. Player list was:

ortiz1193
Furcolow
Olinea
Baby Spice
Fugitive

I had "no gun" results on Baby Spice and Fugitive, so I was ready to peg ortiz as scum since he pulled an

insanely

scummy hammer the day before. Furcolow had stayed in my Town books for a good 2/3 of the game and I didn't think he was overtly scummy so I was skeptical about my results. I waited on my vote, but Furcolow, after seeing that I had innos on Baby Spice and Fugitive, panicked. He was a VT and thought I was fakeclaiming an investigative PR during LyLo to get him lynched (which was a fair assumption, Gunsmith isn't a role that you'd expect to be CC'ed) and immediately voted for me. I was a bit nonchalant about the vote, believing him to be scum and therefore not leading into a quickhammer, but ortiz1193 and Fugitive (Godfather) organized a quickhammer on me and both Furcolow and I lost -- him due to his zealousness, and me due to my ignorance of how carefully people need to vote in LyLo.

As such, I picked Furcolow not because of his "status" (he did play well in Rivertown though, and no, that's not buddying), but because I know him to be a "loose cannon" of sorts. With no prior ties to anyone else in the game (DemonHybrid replaced into a game of mine and right back out in a matter of days) I simply chose him.



@ender241: Why did you wait so long to claim Post Bomber?

[Olinea]

StrangerCoug’s Question:

I’d like a Top 3 list of both Town and Scum. No, that’s not a question.

Top 3 scum: populartajo, Internet Stranger, Xalxe
Top 3 town: Olinea and ender241 are the only two people on whom I've had a strong town read. Forced to pick a third name, I'd say Plum.

Hold on, I don't understand this list. You have me as Town and Tajo as scum. If that were the case, wouldn't the best move for tajo been keeping quiet about sending in the Yosarianite role?

[Olinea]

Hold on, I don't understand this list. You have me as Town and Tajo as scum. If that were the case, wouldn't the best move for tajo been keeping quiet about sending in the Yosarianite role?

I am not a strategy expert and I don't see how one of claiming submitting the Yosarianite role and shutting up about it is preferable to the other as scum. Explain in further detail, please.

If tajo had stayed quiet about submitting the Yosarianite, and nobody would own up to submitting it, I feel as though people would say "well, nobody submitted it, so it has to be a fakeclaim", and probably be the straw that broke the camel's back.

@Oli: about Tasky's gambit. My thinking here is that as town in your position I would have thought Tasky was either lying or wrong. Either way, I'd be extremely keen to know what he thought I was scum. Why didn't you feel that way?

I tend to assume everyone is telling the truth when they first start out -- I had no read on Tasky and figured he actually may have had false information on me -- but what would I do in response, say "uh, no you don't"? Asking where he got it is rolefishing and seeing as how people reacted negatively to my early claim I wasn't going to push the envelope; rather, I'd just hope Tasky would realize his PR is fallible.

[Olinea]

If Olineas original response wasn't enough to make me convinced he is scum, then those definitely are:

Is not strong reasoning, and

appears to be more of a gambit than anything else.

I tend to assume everyone is telling the truth when they first start out

-- I had no read on Tasky and figured he actually may have had false information on me -- but what would I do in response, say "uh, no you don't"? Asking where he got it is rolefishing and seeing as how people reacted negatively to my early claim I wasn't going to push the envelope; rather, I'd just hope Tasky would realize his PR is fallible.

contradiction.
on the one hand you say how not believable my original statement was (you even seemed to know it was a gambit) and on the other hand you want to make me believe you believed my statement but thought I had some false information

Because I'd been considering both sides of the coin. I didn't have a read on you, Tasky; I couldn't decide if this was gambiting scum or misguided Town.

btw, false PR-information are quite rare

You do realize this game is composed of completely new roles, and therefore the fallibility of PRs is likely to increase?

and the worst thing a townie could to against them is do nothing, as they will just hurt the town.

Unless I’m completely missing the point of this statement, in this scenario you just outlined, I’m Town.

The other point is that, again, I had no idea if there was any PR stuff going on. If the mods went “Tasky is an informative PR who used his role on Olinea and got bad results”, then I’d look into it.

I'm conservative with my vote. I don't vote for somebody because they give an

extremely

vague message saying they have a reason to suspect me. That's practically OMGUS; it reeks of an

"Oh, you found me out? You die now"

kind of deal. PRs are fallible and I don't take them as conclusive evidence of anything, especially not on Day 1. What you were doing basically amounted to "Vote him, he's scum" and I ignore things like that.

scumslip.
you feared to come under suspicion? yes, that's exactly my point. of course the townie standing up against to the false PR-claim comes under suspicion, but there is absolutely not town-reason to want to avoid that suspicion.

Are you kidding me? What kind of townie

intentionally

comes under suspicion? There certainly

is

a town reason for not wanting scumhunting efforts to go towards one's self -- because it means that scumhunting (or faux scumhunting) isn't currently being directed towards scum. To you, because I'd rather people direct their attention towards scum, I'm scummy? Good one.

[Olinea]

You do realize this game is composed of completely new roles, and therefore the fallibility of PRs is likely to increase?

but one shouldn't

assume

PRs to be fallible. even if it is

possible

for a role to be fallible, it is not exactly

probable

and one should always first consider the case where it isn't fallible.

Any PR with a guilty on me in this game sure as hell is fallible.

there are two scenarios: in the one you are scum, you were playing in the best and rational way
in the one you are town (the one described above), you were playing in the worst and most anti-own-win-con-way.
therefore your actions are much more likely to come from scum than from town
therefore you are much more likely to be scum than town.

Let's put it this way. Say I confronted you about it. What kind of questions would I have been able to ask without blatantly rolefishing?

Are you kidding me? What kind of townie

intentionally

comes under suspicion? There certainly

is

a town reason for not wanting scumhunting efforts to go towards one's self -- because it means that scumhunting (or faux scumhunting) isn't currently being directed towards scum. To you, because I'd rather people direct their attention towards scum, I'm scummy? Good one.

Let's take the extreme example of the cop-guilty again:
assume A declares a guilty on B, but nobody notices it.
a) if he stays quiet he avoids suspicion
b) if he attacks A he either finds a fakeclaiming scum or either way has a chance to resolve the issue, but he will inevitably come under suspicion
do you think a town-B would choose a) over b)?
I hope however that everybody sees that scum-B likes the result after a) much more than the one after b) and will therefore choose the former.
coming back to our (less extreme) case:
if you were town, the small amount of suspicion you could come into would be almost meaningless compared to the possible gain in questioning someone who claims some extra-threat reasons to vote you. and if you are town, what exactly could you fear in the exchange? consciously avoiding conflicts is one of the major and most reliable scumtells possible.

What do I risk there?

a) Outing another PR, or at least giving scum information about you (Should you be town)
b) Attracting even more suspicion during a period where I was still believed to be a Detonator (Should you be scum, this fills your agenda nicely)

Look. I avoided the issue because there were people with actual statements and questions for me instead of extremely vague softclaiming. I avoid you and it's a scumtell. I ask you where you got your info, or ask about the info, that's definite rolefishing -- a scumtell. Tell me what would have made this anything but a lose-lose situation.

For your meta question, let me purge my games again. I've only got 4 completed Town games for reference (the other two are off-site in some subforum which you'd need to make an account for, then request to join; if you don't mind the hassle and would like to comb the threads anyways, I'll hook you up) -- lynched D1 in my first and NK'ed N1 in my second, but I'll see. I've got an off-site Serial Killer game here which you can reference but I'm not sure which meta you'd count that towards. Basically, Player A claims Neighbor, I jump on the wagon of Neighbor B, and come under a bit of fire. I can get back to you on this but I haven't come under much scrutiny for months until this game.

[Olinea]

Any PR with a guilty on me in this game sure as hell is fallible.

Unless we're dealing with sanity issues, I can't make heads or tails out of this. Elaborate please.

Basically sanity issues, but I also consider fallibility of a PR to be when something can tamper with definite results. Godfathers make Cops fallible, Undertakers for Trackers, etc. Since we don't know exactly what we're dealing with here, the accuracy of informative PRs can definitely be called into question.

[Olinea]

You do realize this game is composed of completely new roles, and therefore the fallibility of PRs is likely to increase?

but one shouldn't

assume

PRs to be fallible. even if it is

possible

for a role to be fallible, it is not exactly

probable

and one should always first consider the case where it isn't fallible.

Any PR with a guilty on me in this game sure as hell is fallible.

haha. you fear investigation, do you?

This is about as blatant as a misrep can get. This is grasping at straws to pad your case and it's actually

so

bad it warrants a

Vote: Tasky

. Go ahead and call that OMGUS, too. I dare you.

Let's put it this way. Say I confronted you about it. What kind of questions would I have been able to ask without blatantly rolefishing?

something like: "Vote: Tasky. Whatever information you claim to have is wrong. You better elaborate on that 'reason' of yours or I'll lynch you for lying." Or maybe being a little more conservative you could have started with "Tasky, how strong is this 'reason' or yours?" to know more. then you could have acted accordingly to my answer.

Alright, fair enough. I hadn't considered going on the offensive at the time, I'm pretty sure I had other people on my plate and I didn't need anbody else pushing it.

a) Outing another PR, or at least giving scum information about you (Should you be town)

I don't understand this. could you rephrase?

Pushing too hard for the true story behind your PR would indicate which type of informative PR you are -- for instance, "What does your "guilty" say about me?" "Says you visited chesskid during the pre-game" would indicate some sort of Tracker/Watcher role. If it resulted in a fullclaim, even worse.

b) Attracting even more suspicion during a period where I was still believed to be a Detonator (Should you be scum, this fills your agenda nicely)

The whole Detonator-bullshit was obviously going to crumble sooner or later, especially considering that you have a confirmable role-claim. so a player should avoid confronting someone he

knows

is lying/wrong because of fear of suspicion? if you are a townie you have absolutely nothing to lose in such a confrontation. scum however, will want to keep out of it as much as possible.

Except for rolefishing Town PRs (if you're Town, but based on that earlier misrep I'm really doubting it)

Look. I avoided the issue because there were people with actual statements and questions for me instead of extremely vague softclaiming. I avoid you and it's a scumtell. I ask you where you got your info, or ask about the info, that's definite rolefishing -- a scumtell. Tell me what would have made this anything but a lose-lose situation.

This is exactly my point. There was the whole detonator-thing around and you knew you could free yourself from that (rather) easily (by role-claim). Therefore you wanted some hype around you, which you could then foil and come out well and townish from the exchange. I see the whole detonator thing as a very convenient shield against any other accusations. just because there is one (very weak) case on you (the detonator) that does absolutely not give you the right to avoid a scumhunting confrontation.
this is another very huge scumtell, scum will always attack the weakest case on them and therefore make it seem like they have refuted all possible cases on them.

Just because I HAVE the roleclaim doesn't mean "Oh, somebody FoS'ed me? ROLECLAIM TIME". While it was early I feel it was better than the alternative, which would be letting the entire thing snowball until the claim would be rather ineffective.

Re: "Scum will always attack the weakest case on them".

HOW IN THE HELL IS "HE TYPED "DETONATE" AND CHESSKID BLEW UP" A WEAKER CASE THAN "I HAVE A

REALLY

GOOD REASON TO BELIEVE HE'S SCUM"?? One is concrete. You can see the bold and the death scene. The other is

extremely

vague. I don't know what kind of Mafia you're playing, but the Detonator case was 100x stronger than your "case".

The "hype around you" thing. Let me get this straight. You think I'm a scum Yosarianite, a scumbuddy of mine blew up chesskid, I claimed, then ender took the fall for whatever reason so I could appear towny? By your own logic, refuting the "very weak" case on me makes me come out "well and townish from the exchange"? Bull. Shit. What do you believe the scenario is right now?

For your meta question, let me purge my games again. I've only got 4 completed Town games for reference (the other two are off-site in some subforum which you'd need to make an account for, then request to join; if you don't mind the hassle and would like to comb the threads anyways, I'll hook you up) -- lynched D1 in my first and NK'ed N1 in my second, but I'll see. I've got an off-site Serial Killer game here which you can reference but I'm not sure which meta you'd count that towards. Basically, Player A claims Neighbor, I jump on the wagon of Neighbor B, and come under a bit of fire. I can get back to you on this but I haven't come under much scrutiny for months until this game.

no, it's not about you coming under suspicion, it's about avoiding a possibly information-bringing confrontation

Nothing comes to mind, no :/

Olinea avoids direct confrontation which might bring a lot of information (if he was town) and prefers to sweep every

real

suspicion against him under the rug.
-> Olinea plays to avoid suspicion instead of playing to scumhunt.
-> Olinea shields himself with a refusal to the extremely weak Detonator-case to avoid coming under suspicion from everything else.

REAL

SUSPICION?

TASKY.

YOU HAD A VAGUE STATEMENT WHICH AMOUNTED TO NO MORE THAN "He might be scum".

MEANWHILE OLINEA IS DEALING WITH "HE TYPED "DETONATE" AND CHESSKID WENT BOOM", BOTH OF WHICH ARE VIEWABLE EVENTS.

Hint: One of those is

real

suspicion. I'll give you two guesses as to which one it is.

"Olinea plays to avoid suspicion instead of playing to scumhunt"

Have you even READ any of my posts? Do I need to drag up my scumhunting so you can twist that, too? You best be joking.

Someone asked me about Xalxe. Let me read him in ISO and my next post will be on him.

[Olinea]

Xalxe's play mostly revolves around the possible roles in the game. He proposed the submitted role massclaim (not inherently bad in itself, though), the table keeps coming up, but I believe it's not Xalxe going "heh heh heh, copy-pasting this table will give the impression of being helpful", and that he actually does think it's being helpful. His wall wasn't so much scumhunting as it was just asking for scumreads, and I didn't see a lot of followup on peoples' responses except Plum, who he asked if she had multiple... "loverizes". WIR he just wrote ":goodposting:" and he asked for a bit more detail on the Yosarianite from me, but that seems to be the extent of his response -- it makes it seem as though the wall is just throwing questions out there hoping that it sparks something. Xalxe's not high on my priorities list but I do have a tendency to avoid major wagons unless it's a deadline lynch.

OVERALL: He seems to be giving off the impression of "trying to be helpful" but I believe that he believes his efforts are genuine. Not enough to warrant a vote yet.

[Olinea]

Do you have any comment on the situation rather than

that

?

You'll notice that's pretty much the first time I've done that all game except for short snippets.

[Olinea]

I voted for Tasky in an earlier post. His entire case on me has, in a nutshell, been "you ignored my false guilty on you, which is not town behavior", then proceeded to misrep me and further his case with such gems as:

Olinea, of course you know already you are scum, so I don't need to convince you.

(since my vote is stuck on obvscum-Olinea)

He's reaching, and quite simply reiterating one point over and over again.

But, Olinea is scum anyway. To see why, go back to my post 188. I clearly state in that post that I have "a REALLY GOOD REASON to believe he is scum". (after the post 147/post 149 exchange) Now, that is not just some accusation that comes from nothing, but it's clear it has to do with some extra-information I possess. Now, as seen by post 191 Olinea has clearly seen my post. Yet he choose to ignore me. I think this is conclusive evidence that he is scum. why?
what does a townie do if someone accuses them stating to have some really strong reason which goes beyond basic scumhunting? they would know that information is wrong, and would wonder why. The very first thing a townie would do is to vote me. Taking this to an extreme, wouldn't you vote a cop who declared a guilty on you?

you feared to come under suspicion? yes, that's exactly my point. of course the townie standing up against to the false PR-claim comes under suspicion, but there is absolutely not town-reason to want to avoid that suspicion.

coming back to our (less extreme) case:
if you were town, the small amount of suspicion you could come into would be almost meaningless compared to the possible gain in questioning someone who claims some extra-threat reasons to vote you. and if you are town, what exactly could you fear in the exchange? consciously avoiding conflicts is one of the major and most reliable scumtells possible.

-> Olinea avoids direct confrontation which might bring a lot of information (if he was town) and prefers to sweep every

real

suspicion against him under the rug.
-> Olinea plays to avoid suspicion instead of playing to scumhunt.
-> Olinea shields himself with a refusal to the extremely weak Detonator-case to avoid coming under suspicion from everything else.

Tasky’s misrep can be found here:

You do realize this game is composed of completely new roles, and therefore the fallibility of PRs is likely to increase?

but one shouldn't

assume

PRs to be fallible. even if it is

possible

for a role to be fallible, it is not exactly

probable

and one should always first consider the case where it isn't fallible.

Any PR with a guilty on me in this game sure as hell is fallible.

haha. you fear investigation, do you?

I honestly can’t see where he got

that

out of my statement. I do not fear investigation. If I feared investigation I would have attacked the credibility of his false guilty as soon as he made it. I DO fear informative PRs not finding scum. Still, no part of my sentence implied any sort of reluctance of be investigated. He twisted that statement so hard that it shows he was desperate for any sort of extra padding to his case.

Do I believe Tasky is scum? At first I believed he was misguided Town working off of a single point but the fact that he’s been reiterating his points so much, and when he tries to introduce new ones they’re built off of

extremely

faulty reasoning (“plays to avoid suspicion instead of playing to scumhunt” – notice that this is just a baseless accusation which he doesn’t follow up) and, in the case of the misrep, no reasoning in the slightest, indicates that he’s scum who knows backing off of me now would mean becoming EXTREMELY suspicious, can only work to throw whatever he can at me and hope it sticks.

And, since mods didn’t count it the first time,

Vote: Tasky

[Olinea]

Also, is there no cops in this game? Is that what the post four means from the mod?

A standard cop, not unless there are multiple scumteams. I sent in a role cop, though.

Warning flares errywhere in here. Didn't like the "multiple scumteams" speculation the first time I saw it and the "Mafia C" strongly indicates SC's flip will likely be a Mafia B or Mafia C.

Vote: StrangerCoug

I also Yosarianized Tasky. Find somebody else to focus on.

[Olinea]

That is an interesting thing to point out, but I want to hear more based on what SC submitted if SC sent in Furc's role.

I think you missed the point of it. I don't care about sending in a Rolecop. His speculation of multiple scumteams is bizarre at best. Inherently I'd assume

one

scumteam, maybe an SK. But the speculation over multiple scumteams was largely unprompted given the circumstances so early in the game. It reeks of innate knowledge that there are more scumteams; I don't think many town players would have that kind of suspicion,

especially

not on Day 1.

Also, I think ender's point is that Xalxe's trying to downplay the potential numbers of scum. If there are 8 scum in the game, and Xalxe pushes the idea that there's, let's say, 6 scum, then we don't start getting cautious until it's much too late.

[Olinea]

I feel I made a reasonable deduction here. A standard cop only makes sense in a multiball because roles have to work for both town and scum, and I don't see how my post indicates that I took the possibility very seriously.

You're completely dodging the argument here. I don't care if you submitted a Rolecop, Godfather, and a Janitor. The speculation over multiple scumteams was unprompted. Submitting a Rolecop is not a scumtell but you're not addressing the main argument, which is that there was no visible reason to suspect multiple scumteams but you brought this up anyways.

[Olinea]

Alright, well, here's what I'm thinking.

DeathNote hasn't looked good for a while now, but he hasn't drawn ties to people yet, and given the speed of yesterday I'd like if today took a bit shorter. Good number of people still need dirt on them like Zajnet and nocmen, who are a bit

too

under the radar IMO. Maybe I'm just not reading enough into them.

Xalxe's the other one who is definitely not looking too good, but the thing is he doesn't even seem to be

trying

to alleviate the cases on him. He just keeps doing what he's doing and he

has

to know that he's under fire but doesn't seem to GAF.

Still shaky on the rewinder business.

@zoraster: your Time Travelling Killer? If so, the mechanic would have chesskid and cooldog retain their alignments?

I don't think zoraster ever discussed the mechanic of the TTK, or how it functions, so why are you mentioning it like you know how it works?

[Olinea]

Olinea, you want today to be shorter?!

Bah. Longer. Sorry.

@Tasky
Yes, I have.

[Olinea]

talking about scumteams in 23.

Null here. This was

after

Furcolow flipped Mafia C.

[Olinea]

talking about scumteams in 23.

Null here. This was

after

Furcolow flipped Mafia C.

uhhh, it might be just because I didn't read this thread closely, but what evidence do we have of "mafia c"

Furcolow's flip reads "Mafia C Rolecop".

Also, forgot to do this:

Unvote (if applicable)
Vote: Tasky

Tasky, at this point you're just trying to say

anything

you can to make me seem scummy. Let's find your latest point.

the whole StrangerCoug&multiple scum groups brought up by Olinea made me look back and find this post. Does someone seriously think at that point one could catch StrangerCougs supposed slip without knowing of multiple scumteams themselves?

Let's find that quote.

Also, is there no cops in this game? Is that what the post four means from the mod?

A standard cop, not unless there are multiple scumteams. I sent in a role cop, though.

Where'd the speculation of multiple scumteams come from? And why would it have any sort of impact on the presence of a Cop-like role?

Notice how I don't call it a slip. Notice how I don't say "OMG HE KNOWS THERE ARE MULTIPLE SCUMTEAMS, LYNCH HIM". I don't divine

anything

about his alignment from the statement; I ask him about it. I didn't see this as a scumslip until Furcolow's Mafia C flip; after that, it reeked of inside information. Once again, you're trying to turn

anything

I say into a scumtell. Your previous case was nothing but repetition, and now you're trying to pad it with whatever you can. I'd suspect a Lyncher in the mix but I doubt a Lyncher would be that obvious.

[Olinea]

Olinea(1) - Tasky

is this votecount correct?



UNVOTE: ,VOTE: DemonHybrid

I PM'ed the mods about this and they haven't exactly gotten back to me. Keep your vote on me, I'd like to see if it was mod error or the work of a Roleblocker or something.

[Olinea]

WhenInRome's claim indicates towniness to me. I'd think, in a game where role alignments aren't given, you can be mostly free to paraphrase the effects of a role and not fall under much scrutiny. If WIR were scum, there wouldn't be a clause that makes

him

show up guilty to investigations as well, since it'd be redundant.

[Olinea]

Christ.

DeathNote

begging

to be hammered is either extremely bad AtE or he's got a death-activated role going on. I'm inclined to think chesskid's reverse Death Miller is what we're dealing with here.

DemonHybrid, you mentioned submitting a Bomb. Given the possibility that DeathNote is a Bomb of sorts, who should we have bring down the hammer?

[Olinea]

In his very first post he mentions submitting a Jester. I'd think it's

extremely

bad Jester play to make people aware of the possibility.

[Olinea]

What does DeathNote have in common with everyone on St. Patrick's Day?

They're getting hammered.

Vote: DeathNote

[Olinea]

for the record I think a mass claim of all the available roles earlier in the game would have helped town.

I feel like that's what screwed me over pretty early. If nobody had been alerted to the Detonator stuff, then that entire ordeal could have been averted.

Good game to scum. Can't say I'm overall pleased with my play... I probably wouldn't have caught Tasky that early had he not "megatunnelled" (as he put it) but, at any rate, I had fun with this. It's a cool game style.

Hoping to play with you guys down the road, too. I thought most everyone did pretty well, even if scum

did

mop the floor with us : P

[Olinea]

Oh, I meant to ask... why'd you guys end up finally killing me off N4, Mafia B?