Open 276- Friends and Enemies Mafia (OVER)

[Hoopla]

VOTE: flinter

[Hoopla]

Since we know that Hoopla is scum, we can see if this theory is right by investigating Hoopla's interactions with Nobody Special and andrew. It is particulary interesting to see that they have never voted for each other, and that if one of them came under suspicion, the others didn't mention a thing about it and simply went on with what they did.

Fair enough

~ In case you wanted to know my actual reason for not confirming, it was because I was talking with mothrax about why the game was a Night Start, as that completely defeated the point of adding an extra VT to the set-up. If anything, that was probably worse than a 12p Day Start, as it then enables the possibility of a N0 mason kill. I'm glad we're day-starting, though.

[Hoopla]

Vote: Hoopla

This is a policy lynch, and a serious one at that. When Hoopla plays, she doesn't play the game of mafia; she posts meaningless numbers and stuff about wagons and COASTS the entire time. She does this regardless of alignment, and she does it no matter what alignment she is. She is a very large detriment to whatever faction she finds herself on, and since chances dictate her being on the town side, we have to take care of this lynch before she begins her coasting and it's already far too late. I urge you to rethink the reputation Hoopla's gained on this site based on blind luck and lynch her based on the horrible play you can expect from her.

Kids say the darndest things.

[Hoopla]

What exactly do you want me to say to that? You and I both know it has little semblance of truth to it.

[Hoopla]

But there are more people in this thread than you and I.

Stop it. You're voting for me too. Don't try and be on my side if you're going to indulge in Nacho's silly fantasy.

[Hoopla]

Hey Nacho, quick question. You seem pretty hellbent on this policy lynch - I'm kind of surprised you're this serious about it. My question to you is, what was your purpose of entering a game with me? If you dislike how I play, and were going to come in and post this about me, and chase my lynch regardless of alignment, isn't that a little sadistic?

You know what I do when I don't want to play with someone, it's a really crazy thing, I don't join the same game as them. If you're just fishing for reactions, you're not going to get one deeper than this: Your meta on me sucks. I am not difficult to read. I don't rely on numbers or statistics - they are a part of my reads sometimes, but I use this as a base and weigh it for or against general tell-based cases I develop, just like you. A large part of my game resides in reading behavioural tells, and I think I am starting to find a healthy balance between gut/behavioural/logic. Since you neglected to offer the other side of my meta (my town game), I'll help you out and do it for you. Here are my recent town games;

Pick Your Power 4 - Role/Number based theory was present here, I admit, but these mechanics encourage that I feel. I didn't vote for a single townie all game, leading multiple scum lynches.

/Invitational: Pick Your Poison 5 - Another mechanic based game (at least initially). We gave the scum the Janitor and I got myself lynched Day 1 to waste the Janitor's shot on a townie. In my closing post analysing the game, I correctly identified 3/4 scum in a 20p game, based on behavioural tells and some wagon analysis.

Scummies Invitational - was an incredibly overwhelming town win. I'd like to say I was responsible for my fair share of it, though we were helped by some accurate vigging. This game had a different mechanic than usual too, but I definitely wasn't reliant on any statistical analysis - most of my reads were gut and behavioural based, with myself and Ojanen indulging in some wagon analysis too.


~ You make me sound like a VI who is an awfully toxic influence on games. I think you're being unfair, as in my recent games I've been exceedingly accurate. If you would like to read up my other games, they're all catalogued neatly in my wiki - feel free to have a look. Otherwise I can provide some more commentary on my other games if you still think I am awful.

[Hoopla]

Spontaneous roadtrip! Forgive me if I don't post for 36 hours. Ciao!

[Hoopla]

Hi everyone, I'm back-ish, though I won't be fully active until tonight. Where's Nacho?

[Hoopla]

Nacho, just so I can guage some perspective on this, rank my antitownness in comparison to some other supposedly controversial players;

Fate
Adel
Albert B Rampage
Battle Mage
DrippingGoofball
Ellibereth
charter
drmyshottyizsik

[Hoopla]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Andrius

...while I'm here.

[Hoopla]

Well, that should be enough for everyone else to see that Nacho doesn't know what he's talking about - but lets not let this become a focal point of the game. Hey, at least he is voting for Andrius.

[Hoopla]

Nacho, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you were flirting with me from all this forced attention. Lets actually take a deeper look at your argument;

When Hoopla plays, she doesn't play the game of mafia; she posts meaningless numbers and stuff about wagons and COASTS the entire time.

I've provided several examples of games (and can provide even more) where I've either not used said methods or it has been a circumstancial factor in my analysis and scumhunting. The games where I have used wagon analysis, and "number-based" methods I've shown myself to be accurate, completely justifying that method of scumhunting.

The next part of your policy post, you state this;

She is a very large detriment to whatever faction she finds herself on, and since chances dictate her being on the town side, we have to take care of this lynch before she begins her coasting and it's already far too late.

To which ABR asks evidence for. You respond with Mini 1015, where I replaced in as scum;

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... la&start=0

This game emplifies Hoopla's play perfectly. She is the master of walling the town with meaningless fluffposts. She will do this regardless of alignment, and she will not contribute to the game in any way. She will avoid from doing so with condensending tones and sarcasm. Notice how she responds to my policy proposal in the first place. "Kids say the darndest things", "Nacho and his silly fantasies"... :/. So it begins.

I don't drown the town with walls - I work hard on trying to keep the game at equal levels of participation, probing lurkers, and trying to quell spammers. In that particular game, I only had one post that could be classified as a wall, and it was due to replacing into a 36 page game. Besides, it's not like you haven't had games where you've walled (1, 2) or even relied on wagon analysis (here).

You state I will wall with fluff posts regardless of alignment, but you've given one example of one catch-up post from a game as scum. How about you find some wall posts as town - hard mode: wall posts as town where I wasn't successful in catching scum in (seeing as one of the conditions was them being meaningless, if they exist at all).

~~

Your accuracy doesn't change the fact you detract from games.

Nacho, how many games have you played with Hoopla? Do you want this lynch to go through, or are you trying to gauge reactions?

I've only played a few games with Hoopla, but I've seen what she does to games. And yes, I want this lynch to go through.

This sort of stuff makes your opinion look very weak, as it's completely dependent on scare tactics. The only town games you've cited where you could debate I've had an anti-town effect have been the two you've quoted; Pick Your Poison and Mini 918.

The reason for each of these games being questionable isn't due to walling with meaningless numbers and data (your original argument) - it is due to poor gambits. Mini 918 I fakeclaimed as Day-Vigilante and got myself lynched, and in Pick Your Poison, I think my actions were justified, but you obviously disagree. These are the only examples of town play you've cited of mine you have a problem with, which is why I asked for you to rank those players, as players like Fate, DGB and ABR have a far richer history of failed or questionable gambits, yet you don't deem their play antitown. You even gambit youself sometimes - Mini 1044 was a very big risk fakeclaiming Day Vig.

Your argument has shifted from "meaningless data" to failed gambits - so which is it? Because Mini 918 is the only town game of mine that I think you have a case on. If you want to berate me for poor play there, then so be it, but I'd be careful because you don't exactly have the most stellar record yourself.

As for the original question;

What would an acceptable arrangement of the names be in order for me to know what I'm talking about?

Putting myself below drmyshottyizsik completely invalidates your opinion. He is a chronic lurker, spammer, flaker, fakeclaimer, claimer of roles in situations that are bad to so, poor sport, an out and out VI and has self hammered as town in LYLO - though, you've done that last one too, so maybe that's why you sympathise with him? Who knows.

[Hoopla]

Also, why did you exclude Adel from that list?

[Hoopla]

players like Fate, DGB and ABR have a far richer history of failed or questionable gambits, yet you don't deem their play antitown.

lol. Nacho has requested your list and I don't see one.

Nacho doesn't know if he's basing my "anti-town" play on number/statistical reliance or poor gambits yet. Once he decides what he's going to use for his policy argument, I can tell you which is worse.

I think I have a more positive town influence than most if not all those players on that list, though. Maybe a couple of years, less so, because I was lynched often, but not now.

~~

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nobody Special

[Hoopla]

Actually, a more serious vote;

UNVOTE:
VOTE: parknourie

~~

Fate, what do you think about parknourie's ISO so far, and this post in particular;

I'm back...and find myself in a really confusing situation:
I'm still Positive on Andrew's guilt than any other player in this game. Contributing virtually nothing, yet with short-ass posts he is still around. Recently? He seems to be lurking the hell out of this room.
I'm staying put with my vote on Andrew for the moment.

[Hoopla]

I'm very tempted to follow Hoopla's vote on Park. Park's tunneling seems quite unnatural to me. However, I think Nacho's lurking is just a little too convenient for him, and I'll keep my vote there because nothing has changed there. NS's his play would warrant a policy lynch, I guess... But maybe he'll improve later!

Do it little flinter buddy, since Fate is being a jerk.

[Hoopla]

Are you blind Hoopla or are you really Andrius buddy?

Andrius and parknourie should be competing - I dislike the concept of having one strong leading wagon on Day 1.

[Hoopla]

Okay, I'll be Andrius' buddy, if that makes you parknourie's buddy.

[Hoopla]

Hi everyone, I'm here and reading through the thread. It is my 2nd game in MS

Hello, welcome to MS. Have you played on other sites before?

[Hoopla]

Andrius is no longer the biggest wagon, and I can't force scum to bus.

Meh scum is scum

Since you're not voting Andrius any more, would you like to vote parknourie with me?

[Hoopla]

Oh yeah, you changed back. You can help me anyways.

[Hoopla]

You're a bold scumbag Hoopla, but you can't manipulate me so easily anymore.

I haven't manipulated you in a very long time - there must be some level of trust built up between us by now. Besides, this isn't manipulation, this is a call to arms - just good old fashioned town helping out town.

[Hoopla]

Humm, this game has really fizzled out, almost coming to a stop. I think it's some of my fault - I haven't really got overly involved just yet, and going back rereading the thread has been taxing as my motivation drops off very quickly. I think other players might be feeling this way too, so I want to ask some questions to maybe start a dialogue with some people, which I'm hopeful could spark some interest in the game for me, and maybe others;

ABR; I don't understand your reason for voting for me, can you explain your gut read in any more depth than you've given us so far?

Empking, what's the Asterix hovering over your town read on flinter?

Elmo, DDD (and whoever else) - why do you think Andrius lurking/flaking is a scumtell? I have small amounts of knowledge of him, but this wasn't too dissimilar to a town game he played recently.

Newbie2010, I've liked your activity and your commentary so far. I know you think parknourie is scummy, but do you have any town reads at the moment?

Fate, this is probably the one time where your aggressive spamming to rile up players would be a good thing - we need more activity in here, and I kind of expected you and to a lesser extent, ABR to be more vocal and influential. Has Empking looked town or scummy to you since his introduction? I assume he hasn't done enough to outweigh Andrius' play.

Nobody Special, why was Empking dropping a town/scum list in his first post as replacement suspicious or even noteworthy from your perspective?

[Hoopla]

I copied the list from the mod's first post. The asterisk comes from there.

That's underwhelming. Did you read the entire game before coming up with those reads?

[Hoopla]

Can you explain why Nacho is town? And why you think Dafish is scum? I think you have those two the wrong way around - Dafish in particular. He seems to be one the few showing genuine curiosity so far.

[Hoopla]

Empking is a sucky wagon, I don't think I can stop others so easily, but Fate, you should know better.

VOTE: flinter

Vote flinter with me Fate. You know you want my approval, and I will definitely approve of you if you help me.

[Hoopla]

Parknourie being an absolute tool hammering himself gave us no time between L-2 and hammer to reassess the situation, right when it's the perfect time to be collecting it - you cannot blame me for that there. I don't think the atmosphere felt right for Andrius/Empking to be a scum wagon competing with parknourie on D1.

[Hoopla]

Fate, you know what's going to suck? If Empking flips town, you've generated fuck all information from today's lynch, because an atmosphere for baseless/poorly reasoned votes was tolerated, to the point where you'll struggle to differentiate between them.

This is L-1 by the way, before someone stupidly hammers.

[Hoopla]

Fear mongering eh Hoopla?

I'm not afraid of you.

It isn't fear mongering. I just want you to acknowledge that this sort of town play is a severe risk if we're wrong, and no matter how right you think you are, it is likelier you're wrong, so this is a very real possibility.

[Hoopla]

...and so it begins.

What, a dissenting opinion on the avalanche of Empking votes? That doesn't seem slightly alarming to you at all? To me, it seems rather likely that this wagon is scum-fueled, and if so, why actively bus Empking when NS is an equally plausible wagon? I think that indicates Empking is town.

[Hoopla]

It's a good wagon, Andrius was flakey and inconsistent. Empking hasn't done anything however so I am finding it hard to conceive how Fate seems so convinced he is scum. I'd say Empking-Hoopla is a strong possibility, or else Empking-NS. What do you think?

I don't think Empking even has to figure in the equation. Andrius's play seals it for me.
Hoopla calling for the counterwagon then making absolutely no effort to create one makes her a decent choice for scum.
Not seeing NS scum, though.

Andrius lurked HARDCORE as town, nearly getting modkilled for such poor inactivity in PYP4. This is why he appologised at the start of the game to me, and though he broke his vow, I don't think those on Andrius for that reason is a very good one, because it is null at best.

Can you explain what facet of his play was scummy besides lurking/flaking?

[Hoopla]

Hoopla calling for the counterwagon then making absolutely no effort to create one makes her a decent choice for scum.

Yep, me and that lack of effort;

Empking is a sucky wagon, I don't think I can stop others so easily, but Fate, you should know better.

VOTE: flinter

Vote flinter with me Fate. You know you want my approval, and I will definitely approve of you if you help me.

[Hoopla]

That's not effort to me.

~ Fair enough.

I think it is easier to read a player when they've generated a significant wagon on them, because they're increasingly under pressure, and you have a whole grip of other players weighing in on them too, creating more links. I

really

think this Empking wagon is wrong, and I think it is wrong more than I think anyone else is scum - this is a pretty normal experience for me, and I'm sure you feel it sometimes too.

We've had so few players genuinely wagoned, it's hard to base my other reads on anything other than individual behavioural tells, and I find them to be less accurate for me. This is why I am paranoid about Empking being lynched and flipping town, because if that happens, we've had almost no information to add from today other than this wagon.

[Hoopla]

Let's make a deal then, Hoopla.

You give me your vote for the day as long as I don't make you vote yourself or Empking, and I'll give you those wagons you so desire.

No one else should respond to this before Hoopla does.

Do you really want me to explain why proxying my vote to you is dumb? I'll assume yes, because the last time I thought you weren't deadly serious, it turns out you were.

I'm not saying I have no scum reads and no town reads other than Empking. There are several players I probably wouldn't look at pursuing today, and I have some scum reads that are stronger than others. Throwing away the responsibility of your vote completely undermines the whole point of generating other wagons, because that's one less person you don't get a read on from their vote.

I'm also not saying the be all and end of all of mafia is wagons - you should be prepared to lynch if the wagon looks good and the player is suspicious enough, but this one doesn't look good to me. And I think many on this wagon are taking the easy option without giving much thought to the game.

[Hoopla]

Its funny because Hoopla doesn't even have a semblance of anything resembling a case on flinter

It's mostly gut admittedly, but this is how we get things going. We build a wagon on someone deemed collectively suspicious, we take stock and analyse if this wagon is good and if it should go through. If so, good then, if not, we do the same thing on someone else.

Does anyone else feel this way about flinter? Fate, what is your read on flinter?

[Hoopla]

Are you going to answer

crazy

hypothetical questions of Empking-town, if I ask it? Or do you still ignore those things?

[Hoopla]

I thought I was helping you become more open-minded too.

[Hoopla]

Say you get your Empking wagon through and he flips town - who is scum? Have any of the votes on Empking today seemed scummy or townish if Empking is town?

[Hoopla]

The worse vote is andrews, which goes without saying. DDD has also done literally nothing of note thiis game. Next would be AGMs for reasons ill post when he gets back, with nachos as the best

i unvoted


hoopla, do you know fate in rl or something

Yes, we're married. But we sleep in separate bedrooms.

[Hoopla]

Oyh yeah, coasting is also something I would call null if it leads to the player replacing out. The thing that causes the coasting is the same thing that causes the replacing out.

Hoopla: You find NS scummy, right?

I find his play ridiculously anti-town, and I guess I find it scummy too. I would be open to wagoning him if this is what you're suggesting, but he isn't my number one pick. Would you vote flinter?

[Hoopla]

For what it's worth, I'm not going to bother reading the 2 pages of Fate/Almaster bickering like schoolgirls.

[Hoopla]

or what's it worth, you're scum with Empking.

You WANTED my spam posting a few pages ago to STIMULATE scumhunting.

And when it happened, "oh ill just ignore the town on town banter and not take a side because Empbuddy is voting AGM"

Lol.

If it's town on town banter you really shouldn't have been voting Almaster up until this morning. And if that truly is your belief, I'd expect you to have declared it once you thought it was true.

[Hoopla]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Fate

[Hoopla]

The Hoopla policy was a complete and utter load of bullshit.

Fate and I were hoping to draw scum together this game so we could mess with Hoopla's wagon analysis, but that didn't happen. And since I had to find some way of messing with Hoopla, so I attempted to policy lynch her.

Why did you have to find some way of messing with me if you were town?

[Hoopla]

Because the point of joining this game was to mess with you, Hoopla.

I think that's really lame.

[Hoopla]

Enough of this hogwash. We put Empking at L-1, nobody posted for 3 days, then Fate and AGM spammed the thread in caps, and we haven't discovered anything except how annoying it can be when players spam the thread in caps, so.......I think it's time to discover what Empking's alignment is.

No it isn't. He's town, and those on his wagon are wrong or scum. Vote for Fate.

[Hoopla]

I basically declared AGM was townier than Empking, aka town on town when I went back to voting EMpKing.

This is Fate's initial excuse for why he declared himself/AGM as town/town, which is a load of rubbish. He knows this too once I call him out on it, so he changes his stance to this;

Its how I get reads <3

Andrius claimed scum awhile back, remember? I just got side tracked by you post reading weird.

Let's get back on track

thank god fate scared me for a second there

I'm fucking bored. Anything to spice things up.

If these were his intentions all along, he'd have spoke up about it earlier - either when declaring a town/town read or the follow up post (first quote) where I questioned him about it. He's tweaked his story to pass it off as generating reads, but it's obvious to me, this isn't a Fate-ploy to generate reads - Fate isn't that good of an actor, his argument was real. These last two quotes are Fate's attempts to cover his tracks - those tracks being a poor attack and botched explanation for his motives. They are extremely forced and umprompted, which suggest he is a little worried that he might be seen as scummy and wants to make sure the town KNOWS these were his motives all along.

"Forget all the silly other stuff! THESE ARE MY REAL REASONS!"

Hey, they're not, though. You're overcompensating and look super unnatural doing it. The fact that AGM is so obviously town makes Fate look even worse. This is one of the few times I've genuinely had a scumread on Fate, and I think I am right.

Vote for Fate.

[Hoopla]

The argument could easily have been town/town or town/scum. It's in scum's interest to take advantage of situations that could be interpreted as scummy, which is what you could have done then. You could have also seen this as town, like you suggest. Both of these are real arguments, and you're not scummy for having a real argument.

What makes you scum is the way you tried to present your motives after the argument, which was obviously false and misleading. You were trying to downplay my questioning of you declaring a town/town duo, by pretending you were doing it just for the reads. I don't think that is true.

[Hoopla]

I was it just doing it "for reads" I was doing it because I THOUGHT AGM WAS SCUM and proceeded to argue with him until that read CHANGED due to SAID ARGUEMENT.

SO yeah I'm summarizing the argument as: "I did it and got a read"

So sure, I may have misspoke.

Okay, so why didn't you declare that AGM was town when you switched to Empking? Presumably that was the point in time when you got that "read", right?

[Hoopla]

It was IMPLIED.

But I had been mulling over the read ever since before I was getting ready to leave. Empking browsing the forum is what tipped it, because I KNEW he wouldn't post until I had called him out.

And if you notice in the very post above it I say "QUICKLY BEFORE I GO" I was running late to meet someone, and I DON"T have time "suprise surprise" to post all of my thoughts and motives with each post I make.

That was the next post I was going to quote. You heavily suspected AGM in the previous post, and two minutes later changed to vote for Empking. Your entire AGM case being completely undermined in two minutes because Empking was browsing the forum is laughable.

SINCE I HAD SAID THE BASIS OF MY CASE WAS FOUNDED IN EMPKINGS "TOWN" FLIP, then me going back to VOTING EMPKING, aka ME THINKING EMPKING IS SCUM, shows that I no longer think MY OWN CASE WAS VALID.

If this was TRULY your reason for why AGM was suddenly town upon you voting Empking, you really shouldn't have used this as your justification;

I basically declared AGM was townier than Empking, aka town on town when I went back to voting EMpKing.

There is nothing here or in any of your subsequent posts that said your case on AGM was based on Empking being town. This says AGM looks more town

than

Empking, not

because

Empking is scum.

~~

If any of the other townies can't see how ridiculous Fate's story is, then they need to be shot. Fate is scum, and his story is falling apart at the seams.

[Hoopla]

There is nothing here or in any of your subsequent posts that said your case on AGM was based on Empking being town. This says AGM looks more town than Empking, not because Empking is scum.

...

Read the CASE I was making against AGM. The PREVIOUS FUCKING POSTS showed that my AGM case was based on Empking being town. NOT REHASHING POSTS =/= SCUMMY.

Why did you say this when I asked why you/AGM was town/town all of a sudden?

I basically declared AGM was townier than Empking, aka town on town when I went back to voting EMpKing.

Why didn't you say your read on AGM was dependent on Empking being scum?

[Hoopla]

ABR brings up a point I missed, Empking was at

L-1

for a fuckload of time. He's not a mason as is clear to ALL.

He's probably not scum too, as optimal scumplay in that situation is to claim mason. If you thought Empking was under enough pressure as town to claim mason, then there was enough pressure to claim mason as scum too. From my experiences, scum have a tendency to pull the trigger earlier than town in claiming situations anyway - they claim as an attempt to defuse their wagon, because they have much more to lose if they are actually lynched.

I don't think Empking was under enough pressure to claim either way if he was a mason/scum, but if you think he was, that probably implies he's a VT.

[Hoopla]

AGM, read my previous post on Empking please.

[Hoopla]

Fate, it's entirely possible a mason could be run up to L-1. Two masons in 11 players (with 3 scum) is hardly a powerhouse town block, so it's not like they wield that much influence in the game. I hope you're not suggesting any player who claims mason at L-1 gets hammered though.

[Hoopla]

AGM, read my previous post on Empking please.

Eh, I don't really buy that argument. 1) Scum don't aways make the optimal fakeclaim, for multiple reasons (one being to manipulate you, seeing as you rely on optimal play a lot) 2) Fate and Empking might have planned for Fate to lay off the bus. 3) My suspicion of Andrius-scum is very strong and isn't getting outweighed by that speculation.

Pretty much any player in this game is competent enough to know, that if you get to L-1 and are asked to claim or are threatened to be hammered, you claim mason. If a newer player or two is scum, they'd have been told this as scum in the QT. There are not any other possible plays to complicate the system, so it's entirely reasonable to believe that scum should know and would claim mason. Empking is hardly incompetent, also. He'd know to out a mason/get himself not lynched if he was scum.

Not claiming mason either means he's a VT, or there wasn't enough pressure on him.

[Hoopla]

Fate, it's entirely possible a mason could be run up to L-1. Two masons in 11 players (with 3 scum) is hardly a powerhouse town block, so it's not like they wield that much influence in the game. I hope you're not suggesting any player who claims mason at L-1 gets hammered though.

I HOPE YOURE NOT ADVISING EMPKING TO CLAIM MASON IN THREAD, NOW ARE YOU?

IM SUGGESTING ANYONE THAT GETS WAGONNED TO L-1 AND CLAIMS MASON SHOULD BE HAMMERED, YES.

What's the fucking point of having masons in the game then??

[Hoopla]

No one claimed that they would hammer Empking.

AKA NOT ENOUGH PRESSURE ON HIM.

Right, so him not claiming mason doesn't rule out that possibility then!

You don't get to keep the point that Empking is either scum/VT.

[Hoopla]

EMPKING IS SCUM. THERES NO EITHER. THERES NO OR.

YOURE TRYING TO OUT THE MASONS WITH THIS DISCUSSION, I SEE RIGHT THROUGH YOU.


SEVERAL PEOPLE WHO WILL REMAIN NAMELESS HAVE WAGONNED EMPKING SCUM TO L-1. THERES NO REASON TO THINK EMPKING IS A MASON.

No, I'm trying to keep the masonry intact. You're the one completely eliminating any possibility of Empking being town. You're playing really badly if you're town.

AGM, we have Fate squirming. Don't let him get away with this. The Empking wagon really does suck.

~~

Also, I'm not going to post for a while. I've been spamming too much - I ask Fate to do the same too, so others can catch up and have a chance of reading and understanding what is happening, rather than being swamped with another page or two of argument that nobody reads. Please just do it if you're town, Fate.

[Hoopla]

Unvote. Vote: Empking

THIS DOES NOT CONSTITUTE ME ACCEPTING FATES BUDDYING. HE IS STILL SCUM.

However, Empking requires death.

I really don't get how you can see Fate and Empking as scum together.

[Hoopla]

You hammered without waiting for a claim? You're an idiot.

[Hoopla]

Okay, scrambling since we're in twilight now. I want to get my reads out there so you have something from me tomorrow, incase I die;

If Empking flips town;

Scum:

Fate
Nacho
flinter

Neutral:

DDD
Nobody Special
ABR

Town:

AGM
Newbie2010

~~

If Empking flips scum, I've been wrong about his lynch, and those pushing him would look a little townier, if only because there were so many other players to push, because this town has been sucking badly, it makes no sense to bus. If Emp is scum, flinter is my only real scumread. Though, I don't think this situation is likely to come up.

[Hoopla]

You hammered without waiting for a claim? You're an idiot.

What would this have achieved? It's clear as day that he would have claimed mason last week if by any chance he were one. Let's just hope that he doesn't flip town.

Not necessarily. There was nobody ever waiting to hammer, and if they were they should have, you know, done the protown thing of asking for a roleclaim before hammering!

I can't believe nobody cares about this.

[Hoopla]

Are you for real? Empking was at L-1 or L-2 for the last 10 pages. You would think someone would defend him by then if he were a mason. You're exagerrating this and blowing it out of proportion. Is NS's return and hammer vote scummy? Yes. Should we have waited for a claim? I think not.

I've been defending him, and we've had like a third of the playerlist not even here too. Empking could quite easily be a mason. I'll be dazzled if he's scum, because there's no way this town could manage to randomly lynch scum over all the potential mislynches scum could push.

[Hoopla]

There was nobody ever waiting to hammer

The entire day we were waiting for someone to hammer

I can get it if you guys want to hammer him. I can't stop you guys from all agreeing he's super scummy or whatever. But lets at least play the game properly and ask for roleclaims in the future, because they do matter.

[Hoopla]

My point is, since everyone is saying how scummy Emp was, what would it matter if/what/whether he claimed?

I mean, yes, protocol is good and all that, but he was practically dripping scum.

Hoopla, dear, why are you stuck on this one point of protocol? Wishing and hoping your buddy could've been saved?

It's a perfectly valid protocol, because you can tell a lot from the way someone claims. Even if you deemed it unlikely Empking was a mason, you could still be wrong, and there could be ways to validate a claim (matching breadcrumbs with other masons for example).

I think you and ABR are being unnecessarily bullish, and as much as I hope I'm wrong about Empking being scum, I don't think I am, and I'm kind of annoyed that everyone on the Empking wagon is refusing to acknowledge it as a real possibility.

[Hoopla]

*IF* Empking does flip scum (yeah, almost sure, but there's that little tiny doubt, always...) I could see Hoopla's inconsistency as scum waffling between distancing and bussing. And yes, Fate & Hoopla have been making what could amount to a pretty good show.

I also like the way that Hoopla has been convinced (convinced, I tell you!!) that Empking was Town; and now that it's twilight, she's sure he's scum.

Sorry, that last post was a typo - double negatives throw me in a loop sometimes. You know what I meant though.

I hope I'm wrong about Empking being town.

I've always been quite confident Empking is town, and I still am now. I'm disappointed that nobody else has really considered it.

[Hoopla]

GET THE FUCK OFF ME. I AM A MASON. AND I CAN PROVE IT. GET OFF MY WAGON.

[Hoopla]

I am a mason, and Hoopla is not in my qt.

Hammer at will.

You're

seriously

counterclaiming me?

[Hoopla]

Don't you dare run away now, Fate. If you are requesting a hammer on claimed mason, by counterclaiming me, you've just outed yourself for no reason.

To the other townies: I can prove myself being a mason by breadcrumbs placed earlier in the game WITH Elmo and my other partner. I'm also willing to out my other mason partner if necessary to prove my role. Hammering now would be akin to claiming scum.

[Hoopla]

Unvote me first.

Also, from the town's perspective, having two players claim mason, you ideally only want the one who you think is most likely to be lying to claim their partner (for obvious reasons). I don't think Fate is in the position to request me outing my partner, but I will listen to other members of the town.

I am willing to out my partner if the town wants me to do that instead of Fate. Fate, are you willing to do the same if the town believes your claim less?

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, claim your partner please.

I will, but why do you believe me less than Fate?

[Hoopla]

Eh, but it makes sense if Fate is a gambiting, lunatic, Commie moron. Maybe you should stop and think about the situation considering Fate already talked about gambiting on D1. Or you could actually think about the situation and not turn coward on your own position. Hoopla doesn't make sense as scum and I'm not willing to back her claiming.

---

I'd just wrote up a large post outlining my motivation for the game, claiming my buddy and my breadcrumb, when I saw this. Since this is 1-1 in terms of wanting me to claim my buddy or not, I will wait for another townie to tilt the scales.

[Hoopla]

Blah blah blah blah

Fate, since you avoided the question last time: if town believes your claim less than mine, would you be prepared to out your partner?

[Hoopla]

I'm going to sleep soon, hurry the fuck up.

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCS that I can forsee will I ever have a reason to claim my mason buddy before your "buddy," I counter-claimed YOU.

Well of course, you won't.

Next player decides if out my partner or not, since we're at 1-1.

[Hoopla]

Also you get lynched if the next player says "dont out your partner" so yeah. Shame.

No, if the next player doesn't want me to claim, it means they believe I am a mason.

[Hoopla]

Well, as much as I wanted to keep the last mason alive until end-game, it is a worse result for the town to be lynched today. I'm going to have continued suspicion until I manage to prove myself as a mason, so here is the post I was holding back;

Because you are the one under pressure now. It doesn't make sense for Fate to "claim" scum at this juncture just to lynch you.

It certainly was a foolish play either way when you think of the possible best/worse case scenarios for him - I think what happened was he was all-set on driving home a Hoopla lynch, he didn't think too much about the consequences when he saw I claimed mason. Now he's scrambling to get it done, by trying to get as much information out of me as possible (ie; my partner), which I was hopeful of trying to save, because a mason in late-game would be super useful.

So be it.

My mason partner is Andrew

, we all left a matching breadcrumb in our fifth post;

But there are more people in this thread than you and I.

Stop

it. You're voting for me too. Don't try and be on my side if you're going to indulge in Nacho's silly fantasy.

look

, its newbie 1016 = =

Listen

, I'm actually largely in agreement with the sentiment towards Andrius, but I don't feel it's healthy to just have zero pressure on the remainder of the game. I'd feel pretty disappointed in retrospect if I let e.g. NS slip through today without doing anything ever. Having said that, Andrius wasn't doing much and is now lurking too, my patience is expiring and eventually I'll just kill whoever. I'm going to leave my vote on Andrius in light of what Danny just said; I didn't know NS was like this regardless of alignment, though I'm not inclined to let him off the hook on that basis. UNVOTE: Nobody Special, VOTE: Andrius

...

<snip>

Stop/Look/Listen.

Prior to the game, we were devising possible breadcrumb ideas, and I came up with this because it is easy to diguise and still very recognisable - the idea for this set of three came when googling "famous trios", with Stop/Look/Listen appearing on this page, which was the first hit. This should be enough to confirm me as a mason, even more so when Andrew confirms this too.

[Hoopla]

Unvotes are welcome when you're ready.

[Hoopla]

I'll get to that all in a minute ABR, but this is how we're going to play today (and tomorrow):

Myself and Andrew and confirmed town, Fate is confirmed scum. But we are not lynching Fate today. By lynching Fate today, we are wasting our advantage of having two confirmed innocents to direct traffic. Think about it this way; if we lynch Fate today, myself or Andrew will die tonight, and we still have the exact same amount of possible suspects, just with one less confirmed townie. It makes far more sense to try and lynch Fate's buddy today, and then cash in the Fate-scum lynch tomorrow or the next day.

I think the town will have better odds of finding (and successfully wagoning) the third scum today than tomorrow or the next day.

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla: That seems like a pretty sterling breadcrumb, but if you all discussed it prior to the game, then why did you not do it in your first posts, why the "5th" ones? It's a massively vague enough breadcrumb that it's not like anyone would have noticed that. Also, why would scum-Fate counter claim here? Is losing another scum worth taking out another mason? Why?

Because clever scum should be trying to catch potential breadcrumbs - you can never be too sure. It's a reasonable assumption that the most scrutinised posts are going to be the first one or two in the day, so choosing the 5th was a way of spreading our posts out enough (I got my crumb out on Page 2, while Elmo was 5 pages later).

I don't know why Fate-scum would counterclaim me here - he obviously thought it was a worthwhile play in some way. Maybe he thought if he let me be confirmed, the lynch would come back around to him anyway? Maybe he thought getting myself outed AND my partner was worth it (with the possibility of getting me lynched instead of him) - you'll have to ask him at the end of the game what his real motivations were. Either way, he is confirmed scum until he provides a mason partner willing to back him up.

[Hoopla]

^^The "Fate is confirmed scum but we're not lynching him today" makes me very nervous that Hoopla doesn't want Fate to flip Mason.

That's because you didn't read the post properly. The only difference between trying to find the third scum tomorrow rather than today, is one less confirmed innocent alive to keep the silly townies like you in check.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla why did you defend Empking so hard as if he was your mason partner?

Well ABR, in the QT I've been extremely ticked off with how the VT's have been playing, especially Day 1. There were literally no VT's that stood out as trying to soak up the nightkill with supreme scumhunting or activity - it gave the masons very little space to hide. We really needed to play one level lower, or three levels higher to avoid the kill. Our game plan centered on surviving, because we knew how powerful 2 or 3 masons on Day 3/4 could be, that even if we hadn't lynched scum yet, we could still have a really good shot at locking the game down with process of elimination.

At the start of Day 2, I was actually leaning town on Empking, and my defense on him was a calculated play to either prevent him being lynched and get

my way

with who I wanted to be lynched, or if he flips scum, being the sole dissenter would secure my survival to Day 3, which was very important. Basically I thought this play would ensure I wasn't NK'ed, because I was capable of being seen as scummy (and being seen as a potential mislynch for scum) no matter what happened.

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla: You really expect me to believe that the scum would have noticed that the first word from you three is Stop/Look/Listen and that somehow that magically meant you were the masons together? That is preposterous. Also, you sidestep the issue that your "lets not lynch Fate today" is an attempt to keep us from seeing a Fate flip. Your response is completely lackluster.

Dude, unless Fate drops a mason partner that confirms he is a mason with him, or Andrew doesn't confirm being my partner, I am proven as a mason, and Fate is proven as scum (barring a outside chance of this being a reckless, pigheaded town gambit).

The fact you're trying to spin this as scummy is so ridiculous, when I'm almost certainly proven town now.

[Hoopla]

What the fuck? How can you guys not get this? If Andrew confirms that we are indeed masons together, then that means we're the remaining town masons. This is an OPEN set-up, there are no tricks, no escapes, and no grey area. The only way I could

possibly

be scum is if Fate also gets a buddy that confirms he is a mason with him - but he won't be able to do this, as a 2 vs. 2 situation is an autolose for whoever the scum is of those pairs.

This is like the most basic and fundamental pieces of logic you're ever going to get in a game of mafia.

[Hoopla]

Yeah but you were so scummy that we're having a difficult time just accepting that you're not scum lol

I had to play slightly below par to compensate for the poor town play leaving me nowhere to hide as a mason, but I debate I looked scummy at all, when there was little to no effort put into trying to determine my alignment at all. I don't think I am a difficult person to read, but I'm dazzled so many players got it so wrong this game, and I'm even more dazzled that some are still debating whether I am scum or not now.

[Hoopla]

How could you not immediately tell that Nacho was bullshitting his policy lynch? That isn't something that I could miss.

I thought he was, which is why my first two/three posts about his policy lynch were sarcastic in nature - when he kept running with, I thought, OK, time to shut you up, because it was becoming a major distraction, and I didn't want him to get away with doing nothing other than sitting on his policy vote.

[Hoopla]

We are not going to TEE HEE this claim business.

Either Fate or Hoopla is getting lynched today.

If the one flips town, the other is scum and is lynched immediately.

End of story.

Right now I am waiting on Andrew and/or Fate to verify Hoopla's claim.

No, when Andrew confirms us both as town, and Fate as scum, you're doing what I say. And what I say is, while I'm alive and my opinions are still relevant, we're going to try and lynch the third scum. You can lynch Fate tomorrow.

[Hoopla]

you're doing what I say.

No, I'm not.

We are not letting Fate sit. It's a bad idea. He'll will find some way to wiggle out, and that cannot happen. End of story. You and Andrew can express your opinions on who the third scum is, and we can proceed accordingly.

P.S. You were TOTALLY wrong about Empking and got yourself put in this predicament, so stop acting all self-righteous.

I wasn't totally wrong about Empking. At the end of the day, my read on him was neutral at best - I've already claimed this was a tactic to ensure survival to Day 3, coupled with my lower than usual activity on Day 1.

You're just sewing seeds of paranoia. When Andrew confirms my claim, it proves Fate as scum. It doesn't matter if we lynch him today or tomorrow. There is still the same amount of suspects alive for the third scum on each day. It makes no sense to waste a mason advantage today on lynching guaranteed scum. You can cash it in tomorrow.

[Hoopla]

Fate can wiggle like you have never seen before.

If you're town and thought anything other than Fate being confirmed scum is possible (once I'm confirmed), then you need to hand in your scumhunting badge and retire to Florida.

[Hoopla]

It's not ME I'm worried about, it's the other people.

Funny, that's my exact reason for doing it this way. I have more faith in the town's ability to manage to lynch Fate-scum tomorrow, than find the third scum together, that it makes it the rational play to try and find and lynch the third scum NOW.

[Hoopla]

Guys, can you please not lynch Fate yet? I have a large post analysing the game I am working on, now that I am confirmed.

[Hoopla]

@Hoopla: I get that you want to use today to scumhunt for scum #3, but there is no reason why we can't do that, come to some conclusion on who that person is, and then lynch Fate? Tomorrow the remaining mason can be sure to herd the town towards the agreed upon lynch. AND, if Fate were just being dumb and VT, we'd be getting the mislynch over with now, not having it bite us in the ass at some later date.

In other words, why not lynch Fate today?

If you believe Fate is confirmed scum, here are the differences between the two days;

Day 3:

Hoopla
Andrew

Fate

Battousai
AlmasterGM
Albert B. Rampage
LynchMePls
Debonair Danny DiPietro
Nobody Special

Day 4:

Hoopla/Andrew

Battousai
AlmasterGM
Albert B. Rampage
LynchMePls
Debonair Danny DiPietro
Nobody Special

~~

This is one less mason we have to direct the lynch tomorrow, when the suspect pool is

exactly

the same. I refuse to accept Fate being a VT and fucking this game over as a possible option, because not even he is that fucking stupid and disrespectful.

[Hoopla]

I'm arguing from the perspective of Fate-scum. There are 6 players who could take up the third scum slot;

Battousai
AlmasterGM
Albert B. Rampage
LynchMePls
Debonair Danny DiPietro
Nobody Special

Sadly, of the bunch, I think

Nobody Special

is least likely to be this scum. I have several theories; the first is, I don't think Fate would have thrown the game away by outing himself if Nobody Special was the last scum. He's played an underwhelming game, rarely contributing and generally being on the outskirts of everyone's radar. Elmo in particular was suspicious of Nobody Special on Day 1 and throughout our chat in QT on Night 1, as were several other townies - why would Fate leave his chances of winning in the hands of Nobody Special?

The second consideration is Nobody Special's hammer on Empking. Surely in a hypothetical scumteam with Fate/Empking/NS, there would have been talk on night 1 that if one were to get in trouble, claim mason to either survive or (hopefully) out a mason. Although Empking's fate was virtually sealed once he picked up several quick votes, NS's hammer was brazen and out of the blue, and certainly doesn't read like a last-minute bus.

Thirdly, Nobody Special jumped ship to Empking's wagon late on Day 1 (off of me), to take Empking ahead 5-4 over parknourie. Both were perfectly viable wagons, with no shortage of excuses to get on either - why take the option of bussing Empking? Sure, it turned out that parknourie was lynched in the end, but NS couldn't have predicted that. His single vote tipping the scales Empking's way greatly improved his chances of getting lynched, and I don't think NS is that cagey, especially when his voting pattern prior to jumping on Empking showed bussing wasn't a plan at the forefront of scum's priorities. I think these three tells are individually enough to compensate (and then some) for his seemingly scummy, and certainly lacklustre play. I wouldn't waste one of our lynch chances on NS.

The way Empking's wagon spiralled to L-1 so quickly (on Day 2), and with little to no competition is remarkable for a scum lynch. It suggests scum had a significant hand in this play - Fate was aided unconditionally by his lackey Nacho, which made his wagon influence more concentrated than usual, and slightly obfuscates the typical make-up of the wagon needed to explain what happened. I

could

quite easily see a second scum on this lynch wagon (when ordinarilly it is unlikely), only because the precedent was set so strongly the day before - but lets look at that final vote count;

parknourie

(7):

andrew94, Hoopla

, Newbie2010, flinter,

Empking

, Albert B. Rampage,

parknourie

Empking

(5):

Fate

,

Nachomamma8

, Debonair Danny DiPietro,

Elmo, Nobody Special

Nobody Special

(1): Dafish

This is a strong town tell for

DDD

, because if he were scum it means parknourie's wagon still managed to beat out Empking with two scum bussing a buddy. Despite parknourie's wagon needing one less player to lynch him due to his self-hammer, it's still a lot more likely scum were nursing a park-vote, given how much ammo was readily available for the Andrius wagon. It's a completely subjective judgement in determining how scummy/deserving a particular player was of their votes, but I fail to believe two scum sitting on Empking is the cause of that final equation. This result is particularly indicative of two-scum on park, given the other competing wagon was scum and was pushed incredibly hard by another scum.

If I'm right about two scum on parknourie's wagon, it whittles it down to three,

Battousai

,

LMP

and

ABR

. Of the three, I'm most suspicious of LMP and Battousai. I'll elaborate on this soon, but I have other things I want to do. I won't be lynching DDD or NS, though.

[Hoopla]

YESSSSSS.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

FATE. Why did you pull a gambit claim and steal all my glory? Your lynch was supposed to be MINE. MINE. MINE.

Anyway, Hoopla - remember that other game where you did all that VCA and said it strongly pointed to me being town? And then I was scum and won the game because of it?

Yeah, I do. I make mistakes. I don't think I claim to be perfect or anything near that.

[Hoopla]

I'm really struggling to care about this game any more. If Fate's town and his intentions were really just to fuck with me all along, then good on him. I'm probably going to have lost all respect for him if that's true, so I'm just more hopeful he's scum now, and this was an attempt to just crush my spirits and/or talk his way out of it with wifom. I think that's a valid scumplay, but I'm going to be really sad if he is town.

[Hoopla]

See this is why Fate is dangerous, Hoopla.

Do you really trust leaving him alive until tomorrow?

Yeah. I'm just going to vote him now and be done with. Yes Fate, it's policy now.

VOTE: Fate

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, piss off with your 13 players, it ruined the game.

If you actually saddled up and made a kill, or if the mod used proper no lynch/no kill stalemate rules you'd have eventually been forced to make a kill, giving us a clean cycle of lynches/scumkills. The initiative always falls back on scum - it's never standard for the town to choose to hammer a stalemate.

The game is far more balanced with 13 players, as it requires no no-lynching under normal circumstances. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Aside from this, I don't have much interest in playing with Fate and Nacho again. Thanks for modding anyway, mothrax.

[Hoopla]

Sorting bump.