The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[GummyBear]

/confirming
//some sort of clever confirmation post.

[GummyBear]

We'll be V/LA this weekend. Don't expect a ton of posting from us.

Noted

[GummyBear]

We'll read soon. We've been out of town and busy taking care of some stuff.

[GummyBear]

Sup. Half of this hydra is caught up, and half of it is...probably caught up.

Conferring tonight. We'll decide how we feel about the happenings thus far soon.

Also, not really sure what to make of this whole "signing who's who" discussion, and why people feel the need to be so secret about it. Because it's a "large" game, and there really are 26+ of us playing, keeping track of those 26 people is easier when you know who's saying what (hint: just like any other large game). I've seen it too many times where hydras get away with being scum because they cover it up by "disagreeing" with each other. "Oh, well they didn't mean that, this is how I really feel" etc, etc.

Just saying, it's easier when everyone can stay accountable with each other.
-Singer

[GummyBear]

The way this Unicorn sees it is that if you are town you don't have to worry about being accountable with each other . Only scum really need to worry about what the other heads are doing. :3

That was part of my point. I don't like dissonance between hydra heads cluttering up the thread and confusing everyone. I agree with Recka saying that the point is to be ONE head and a united front.

Ether, ^that^ should answer why I'd like to confer before giving any reads.

[GummyBear]

..................

[GummyBear]

I think you and I have two different ideas on how hydras work. I'm not going to play in a hydra without utilizing the other head of it. If I wanted to do that, I would be playing in a game by myself. If I think one half of the player list is scum and my other half thinks the other half of the player list is scum, then we don't really get anywhere. If we have a chance to discuss what we think about the players, we can form more accurate opinions collectively from there.

Why does it matter that we actually care about participating in this game TOGETHER? If everyone acted independently from each other, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a hydra?
-Singer

[GummyBear]

If you could point out exactly what we're supposed to get from that/the point you're making, that would be cool.
-Singer

[GummyBear]

EBWOP: because as far as I can see, you two are conferring with each other...which is exactly my point.

[GummyBear]

I'm afraid you'll catch me if I don't rehearse all of my stances first.

-Ether

Who labeled this discussion as stupid again?

Why are you so concerned with us labeling people as scum? Are you looking for us to give you a stamp of approval before continuing on?

Fyi, discussion is almost never stupid as long as it's game/mafia related. If we hadn't had that discussion, I never would have known why it mattered to you that I was concerned with conferring before we posted specific thoughts on specific players. It's pro-town to talk. To think otherwise is batting for the other team.

-Singer

Ether, I don't think there's a reason why it's so bad for her to wait for me to read up for her to post her reads. We live together, so we can afford to not post until we converse. It's a different situation than most (if not all) of the other hydras; we're able to converse more or less 24/7. This means that there's no reason for us to say anything we don't both agree on, unless we can't reach a consensus.

-quadz

Now that we're both caught up and posting, we'll be giving reads, but until then, I saw no reason to give my personal reads on people and have quadz come back and completely disagree. Like I said, dissonance in a hydra is annoying, and hard to work with.

Since when is posting who you think the scum are "cluttering up the thread?"

Also, I'd like to point out that I specifically said dissonance, as in disagreeing. No where did I say that saying who WE thought were scum would be cluttering the thread. Please refrain from putting words in my/our mouth.

-Singer

[GummyBear]

Ether, why did you dismiss Final Destination's need to confer?

-Singer/quadz

[GummyBear]

We literally do not understand.

P-Edit: Explanation is tech.

-quadz

[GummyBear]

Just checking in after catching up in another game. This one's next.

We like separate posts from the mod because then it's easier to ISO the mod for vote counts, etc.

Quick note about FES's meta on Fate: I've seen Fate very aggressive as scum, too. Though I agree with it being odd that he and AGM are so silent this game. AGM tends to sheep Fate, so I don't see why he would feel the need to pull back (unless he's learned from his mistakes with his Edge hydra )

-Singer

The FD meta change is too blatant to be a scumtell. It's clearly intentional, so it's null for me.

-quadz

[GummyBear]

As if by magic, a post is on its way. Singer is looking over it and we're discussing now.

- quadz

[GummyBear]

Our apologies for taking so long to make this post. Real life attacked us viciously the past couple of days. Also, apologies for the wallishness.

Congrats ether, that's a neat little game of semantics you're playing there.

*thumbsup*

Greymarble’s vote on FD in 127 concerns us quite a bit. I don’t like the lack of explanation at all. But then you explain without being prompted in 131, so nevermind. It’s null. (Though we don’t agree with your meta-case.)

For what it's worth, it's not like I just voted them over a theory disagreement.

It’s… not? I’m pretty sure that you did, in fact, vote us over a theory disagreement. Show me where your case consisted of anything other than “Singer said she had to converse with quadz before posting that means they’re COVERING SOMETHING UP OMG.”

You proceeding to call us both scum for complete bullshit reasons make us think you are scum and she is town.

*thumbsup* We approve of the Fate / AGM hydra, in general. Playstyle, thoughts, all of the above. It’s a good change, you guys.

YFC’s 166: Point 1 is solid. Point 2 is… understandable. Point 3 Is… complete bullshit. Pathetric is NOT obvtown; far from it. (edit from THE FUTURE: FD’s 168 is more or less this, but elaborated.)

We agree with 167, though. So far, getting a townread from YFC.

If she realizes she voted them over only a theory disagreement

Explain how that quote from Pathretic admits voting us over a theory disagreement? I got the exact opposite thing. Unless she was being sarcastic, and I’m not picking up on it, I suppose.

UB’s 181: I don’t see anything we stand to gain from such a list. Why not just ask for top scumpicks?

Dammit, YFC…

Ok, now, that's absurd.

Ether's reasoning for suspecting Gummy made perfect sense

1

, and was about as strong as you'd expect for page 5 of day 1.

2

The fact that she was willing to wagon hop to someone else scummy in order to get pressure going is a good sign, not a bad one.

3

Basically as soon as the game started, she ran right out onto the high wire without a net, just to get reactions and to get the game moving. And what's more, she's clearly having fun doing it; if Ether's enjoying herself in a game, you can bet money that she's town.

4

Are you reading Ether's posts this game? Half the reason I was assuming Fate was scum because I didn't think there's any way that anyone pro-town could read Ether's posts and not see that they all screamed town.

5

1: No, it didn’t. Theory is a shit reason to vote somebody, especially on someone with an exprerimental / new playstyle (this is our first game as a hydra together, outside of Square Enix IV, which we replaced into are were immediately NK’ed. Literally 0 posts.)
2: Ehhhh… not really. Again, theory is a poor reason to vote someone, even at the top of a game.
3: This sounds like you’re trying really hard to defend your townread on her. I can understand that… but it’s certainly not the first explanation that comes to mind.
4 & 5: We’ve never played with Ether before, and this is pretty obviously meta-based info. Looking at Pathetric from a vantage point of just this game, they’re most certainly not obv-town.
--townpoints for you.

Your single vote change is enough to convince me of rampant opportunism.

D’uhhhh… what? Single ANYTHING =/= rampant. Sorry, try again.

Fez 201 has one thing that stands out in particular to me: “[Fate’s] town style is hard to emulate [as scum.]” This is blatantly false; Fate yells like a crazy person regardless of alignment. As I said in 203, the playstyle change is null.

1) The "silent" argument is completely false - we have produced more content than more than half the playerlist combined. Untrod Stranger, Reckamonic, Balam, BeaverWesel, and Mrs. Flay … go read those people and get back to us on the "silent" issue.
2) Your reference for AGM sheeping Fate is like what, one game? Terrible meta tell.
3) We have already stated that we are taking a unilateral approach to this game. We discuss and agree on all posts before we make them. This necessarily leads to less posting because we have to both be on at the same time to talk before we can make a post.
4) You are refuting yourself. Obviously Edge was completely out of control, so it would logically make sense that Fate would try something different this time.

1) By “silent” she meant “not yelling.”
2) Fair ‘nuff.
3) That was her point.
4) Again, her point exactly.

I really like Daspot’s 208. Good points, methinks.

US… not liking 229. You’re putting a whole crapton of words in YFC’s mouth. Hell, they never even MENTIONED reasoning and / or deduction. I don’t like it.

Balam: you three should not be allowed to play in-hydra together. If you’re scum, that is COMPLETELY UNFAIR for the town.

Reads:
Scum: US, Pathetric
Town: FD

[GummyBear]

^^^

-quadz

[GummyBear]

Still, in the future; if you can't confer, but have time to post, I would like to see you post some relevant thoughts on who might be scum in the game. Basically, I don't care if you post together or post separately, but if you can't post together then having at least one player in your hydra playing the game is much better for the town then not hearing anything relevant from either of you. Don't worry so much about contradicting yourself, that doesn't really matter.

Ok. Fair enough. Like we've said, both of us have just had bad experiences with scum hydras getting away with contradicting themselves in what would otherwise be scummy ways, just because they blame it on the other head. We're trying out the whole united front thing, but it's obvious we shouldn't abuse that, as you're right, it would ultimately detract from the game.

I think we'll both be better about being able to respond more often from now on.

Speaking of which, quadz is responding to one other point in your post in a different post. This particular one was just mainly about outside issues...or what have you.

Take a look at her posts. She was the only person voting for you, and it's pretty obvious that her goal was not to convince other people to vote for you, or to get a quick lynch through on you, or whatever; her goal was to get a rise out of you, to force to to react to her, in order to try to get a read on you.

...

She's not trying to lynch you here, or trying to build a case or whatever. She's trying to get a read on you, trying to make you react or do something in-thread that will allow her to understand you, trying to pressure you into placing a vote or something, and basically is trying to piss you off if necessary in order to get you to react. At this point in the game, you were being entirely unreadable, and possibly deliberately so, so she decided to try and pick a fight with you to get a read on you; basically, she's trying to piss you off here so you'll do something, anything. That's a risky, and entirely pro-town, move; scum have no reason to make enemies like that.

4 & 5: We’ve never played with Ether before, and this is pretty obviously meta-based info.

Yeah, that is true, but I was under the impression that Ether's meta was fairly well known.

Mmm. This sounds a lot like Hoopla from my experience with her. I can safely say that quadz would say the same. We'll keep that in mind, but the way you're looking at it makes a lot more sense than someone deliberately being...whatever she was being.

-Singer

[GummyBear]

Huh? What other explanation is there?

My immediate, semi-kneejerk response to a quick wagon hop is "scummy," essentially. Your post makes her reasoning for hopping off of our backs a little clearer, though, so that particular read is slightly dialed down.

Also, we just noticed that we didn't vote in our catch-up post. As a remedy for that, our number 1 scumpick, then and now:

VOTE: Untrod Stranger

-quadz

[GummyBear]

US's responses are surprisingly defensive.

But to answer your question: now that we're more familiar with Ether's scumhunting style, I would say we're indifferent about their vote.

Also, I think you missed the part where quadz commented on your "case" on FES.

-Singer

[GummyBear]

Dramonic will be here in 4.5 hours, and after we both sleep (since we haven't gotten a damn wink of sleep in 48 hours), we'll try and get something up tomorrow evening sometime.

Last time I saw this, you were scum.

-Singer

[GummyBear]

There will be a post from us soon, promise. Real-life attacks, sorry. Though, we do approve of the US wagon. *thumbsup*

-quadz

[GummyBear]

Catching Up Now:

FD vs. YFC is still odd. I’m still leaning town on FD, and his case about YFC buddying the crap out of Pathetric is decent, at least.

BW’s 323 further expands on this, and is goodposting. (except for his calling Pathetric’s “some noob” comment at the beginning of the game scummy; that was clearly a joke.)

To (finally) answer Daspot’s question about what we like about their 208: it is concise, well put-together, and well-reasoned. Shows solid scumhunting. *thumbsup*

YFC’s continued insistence that Pathetric is obvtown is becoming really frustrating. It should be apparent that nobody else thinks so. (However, the fact that YFC does lean so strongly to YFC being obv-town leads me to think that YFC may have been helping direct the NK)

BW’s 347 is baaaaaaaaaad. Whooooo boy. “Hey, we think that last post was super-scummy, but does anyone wanna explain why ELSE he’s scummy so we can parrot that? THX.”
Ooh! And followed up by this gem in 351:

So, asking someone to present a consise, neat case that doesn't require me to read through 13 pages of bullshit again is scummy? Ok then.

Course not, BW. Why would we expect a player to read through the game? Silly us.

DAY 2 BEGINNETH
Balam’s 360 is alright. The last point they make (about UB’s change of heart on US) is worth mentioning: They had earlier expressed suspicion of US. Why ask about what "changed?"

LF’s official hydra-entrance (361 is a good post, mostly because we agree with basically everything they said.

Fez's immediate response to that post is nonsensical. Surely ONE of the heads would have realized how disastrous it would be for scum-UB to have that rule in place. Additionally, he talks about a specific towntell committed by FD, and then votes for FD.

FD’s 370 sounds good to me. Solid reasoning, especially in the second half of the post.

WHOOOO. Fez's 372 made me go look at FD’s ISO. Guess what? The last time they mention a read on Fez was saying how they THOUGHT HE MIGHT BE TOWN. (Granted, this is in the case of scumYFC, but still.) I don’t like that change in thought process, FD. –townpoints for you.

FUTURE EDIT: This is addressed by FD in 379. Your explanation makes sense, but apparent change of heart is still a mild concern.
Fez: if bad =/= scummy in that post, what did bad mean? This seems like you reaching back and finding a way to avoid contradicting yourself.

The end of 379 is a good point. If Fez was planning on writing a good-sized post, why didn’t he do it at nighttime?

Welcome to the game, Copper. Your post is good. We have nothing in particular to comment on from it, mostly because we don't really disagree with anything from it.

UB is essentially our Village Idiot. I’m finding it difficult to pay attention to anything he says, since there’s essentially nothing to it.

YFC, we STILL haven’t gotten a satisfactory explanation from you as to why Pathetric was obvtown, despite your insistence that you’ve explained it. If you want to point out where you’ve made it clear why they were obvtown, it would be excellent. However, I don’t see it.

Scumreads (in order): BW, Fez, YFC
Town: FD, Grey, UB

[GummyBear]

Aha...I did notice that, and thought it was weird myself. That completely makes sense; I can't believe I forgot about when I reread the post. >.<

[GummyBear]

YFC, to clarify what quadz was talking about:
He thought it was odd that you you thought Pathetric was obvtown and expected everyone else to see the same obvtown tells for Ether as you did. While I accepted your defense against her because I could see town motives for what she did, it was still weird that it seemed like the meta you had on her was supposed to just be blanketed over to everyone else who thought she was scummy. Hence why it was "unsatisfactory," so to speak.

Though that comment came AFTER this observation:

YFC’s continued insistence that Pathetric is obvtown is becoming really frustrating. It should be apparent that nobody else thinks so. (However, the fact that YFC does lean so strongly to

ebwop: Pathetic

being obv-town leads me to think that YFC may have been helping direct the NK)

Nothing to say about that?

-Singer

[GummyBear]

Singer's reaction to Copper:
"Oh Shit!"

Sorry, quadz asked me to

vote: BeaverWeseal

in the post, and then again when I forgot to, and then...I forgot to...

It's especially stupid that I forgot considering my reaction TBM's last post was "don't do that to a replacement, just let him hang."

[GummyBear]

FFFFFFFFFFFF,

hydra posting

.
It wasn't you, but it WAS someone in your hydra. Being online at the same time does not a post make when you're distracted with other things first. We've been able to make ONE POST in another game. Check the time stamps there and chill the fuck out. And Fonzi's right. If you really thought we were lurking because we can't fake a case, then vote us. Done. Scum caught.

But you don't really believe that, do you.

[GummyBear]

unvote

I've caught up, but quadz hasn't. If he doesn't approve of my catch-up post by tonight, I'll post it anyway because we're going to be

V/LA through Monday

.

[GummyBear]

Beaverweasel is probably scum. When someone lurks for 90% of the day, and the few posts they make are scummy, they're generally a great lynch; most of the time I'd rather lynch a scummy looking lurker then someone active.

Yos DOES seem to be basing more reads on meta than he should…

DaSpott is having the same stupid hydra waffling we didn’t want. POINT PROVEN.

Lulz.
[singersigner approved]
Next Copper post: SS <3
*someone has a hydra crush*

Lord Fonzi’s 458: Is it just activity level you’re concerned with? We recently replaced out of our other hydra game, if that’s what you’re worried about. We ask that you ISO us again, and then tell us if you agree with yourself. It will also show you that we came into this game letting everyone know full well our intent of posting together as opposed to letting heads run rampant. If you want to policy lynch based on that, we suggest you rethink your grounds for policy lynches.

Balam: I’ll tell you the same thing I’ve told everyone else that knows me. Just because we live in the same house, does not mean that I can telepathically communicate to him while he’s sleeping (AGar should know that we have VASTLY different sleep schedules). If you have any fancy tricks I can try, by all means, don’t hold back.

It seems a little bit unfair to discriminate against one hydra for needing to be prodded and not another don’t you think? Meta us to find out why, then answer that.

-Singer
quadz approved this post for now, but we have more to say before we leave tomorrow, most notably how we feel about FES and Yos at the moment.

[GummyBear]

We apologize profusely for taking forever to post again. :/ Real life sucks.

YFC’s 413 is not good. You continue to insist that your obvtown read on Pathetric should’ve been agreed upon by everyone, which is nonsensical at best. Due to the simple fact that not everyone (I don’t remember how many it was, but I don’t think there were very many) agreed with that read, you should know that it’s clearly not obvious. As to your second point: You thought she was obvtown. What better reason is there for scum to kill someone?

YFC’s 418 confuses me further. She thought about possible motivations for the kill, but doesn’t understand that obvtownieness is the most basic of reasons to NK someone? It feels like she’s doing a little bit of pseudo-scumhunting to get people off her back for not scumhunting. (“Speaking of scumhunting…”)

I do like YFC’s posts on page 18, for the record.

Welcome to the game, SVT. Hope you’ve a ladder to get out of the hole BW dug for you.

Fez 450: How can UB be a strong townread for many players and an easy target at the same time? That’s a pretty blatant contradiction.

As to Lord Fonzi's 458 (as well as all future posts agreeing with him), I know that Singer addressed this already, but I am going to calmly point out that it really pisses me off when people accuse me of lurking on purpose, or to achieve an end. I believe that lurking on purpose is against the spirit of the game. I apologize that this semester has been far busier than I anticipated, but that does not excuse you from making what I consider to be an insult to my integrity as a player. I would like to make it clear that I appreciate your reasoning, and see the logic, but I can assure you, lurking will NEVER be a tell of any kind on me or any hydra I am part of.

UB’s 468 presents decentish points on Copper. However, I find Copperscum unlikely. Additionally, a vote which is essentially based on the fact that one post is too long? No bueno. However, the contribution from UB is much appreciated; it’s been a very long time coming.

Grey’ s 560 makes me want GreyICE to play in this hydra all the time. You’re a better player when you’re calm. Your case on Balam is unique and seems solid to me. I’ll have to look into their ISO to see if I agree, but the post itself is good.

Balam’s responses are measured and logical. My townread on them stays put. I definitely see Balam vs. Greymarble as town vs. town.

To be quite honest, reading the past 8 or so pages has changed my reads essentially NOT AT ALL. SVT needs to give us something of substance; what he’s put up so far is crap.

Our vote stays (

revote: SuperVanillaTownie

), and my scumreads are still BW, Fez, and YFC. Additionally, my townreads are still FD, Grey, and UB, but you can go ahead and add Balam and Copper to that.

Just as a note on the frequency of our V/LAs: we’ve had a lot of traveling happening lately. We apologize again for the inconvenience. At this point, however, our V/LAs should be non-existent from here on out.

[GummyBear]

Past couple of pages:
Re: Copper question about UB's points we agree with...will go back and check in a few hours.

Oh look Lord's talking about animosity between heads...gofuckingfigure he'd allow that to waffle over his reads.

We never stated that FES was an unacceptable lynch,we just decided that BW->SVT was a better focus

Lord Fonzi also says that it's suspicious that we don't vote for FES even though he's a scumread of ours and is a much more viable lynch, and yet you're voting for us after publicly stating that you're suspicious of FES as well-compromise my ass.

Yos's 615 is ridiculously WIFOM-y.

Lord Fonzi, we'll be apologizing to you in the aftermath, no doubt. But if you want to point out where we use ridiculous amounts of AtE, that'd be cool (other than quadz's frustration over you seemingly making lurking your case *acknowledging that lurking is no longer the only part of your case against us*).

We also don't know why Lord Fonzi keeps talking in circles about "what it will mean/look like if they do/don't hammer FES"...he's not at L-1, and last we checked, no one asked him to claim. For being one of our town reads, you certainly seem to be caring about the oddest of things...

We have more to say later when it's not 4am, as always. Especially looking at daspot's case since lately that seems to be a big deal or something.
This game sucks just fyi. That we can agree on SVT with. The cases are horrible, the reads are horrible, etc. Just our opinion.

[GummyBear]

We never said you did, in fact we said the opposite, but do you know how often scum distance their partners by putting them in a 'top suspects' list but saying that someone else is more of a priority?

Except you've essentially done the same thing now with

you

thinking FES is scummy enough to vote and your other head just so happens to not allow you to continue to vote for them. "It's scummy when they do it but not when we do it, waaah." Please.

Regardless of both of you thinking that we're scummy. Your entire case on us was lurking up until you decided that catching up in a game and agreeing/disagreeing with people's reads was sheeping. At this point one of the top two wagons SHOULD be lynched today, and you're effectively preventing that from happening by focusing on a null tell.

But now that SVT is requesting replacement...that slot has coasted for the past two game days through "catching up" but not actually catching up and eventually requesting replacement.

@Yos...we're not "continually attacking you for your Ether-town read." We mentioned it and clarified it a couple times. You say that in response to you 615 but this is at least the second time now that you've used words like "continually" or "persistently" to make it seem like us delving into answers we're not satisfied with is scummy. The WIFOM part comes with saying that you think "everyone should've known Ether was town" and yet they clearly didn't (which we've said before so that's enough of that), and then you bringing up that she had three people on her wagon at one point so you saying she was obv town wouldn't make a difference about the NK if other people didn't think she was town because she would still be scummy in their eyes and therefore NOT be the target for the NK...WIFOM.

quadz and I are ISO-ing people when we get home.

Preview Edit:
Balam/AGar...do you then agree with how Lord Fonzi and "Gummybear" used their votes (I know I just referred to ourselves in the third person, but I couldn't think of a better way to grammatically say that)?

[GummyBear]

More/better content is on its way from us (should be tomorrow). Apologies. So far none of our reads have changed, but we're (obviously) not done working on our re-read/ISOs/post/thing. This is mostly letting you know that we're still alive and reading and posting and all of those things that players should be doing.

-quadz

[GummyBear]

FFFFFFFFFF.

This game...

We've ISOed players and nothing's changed in our opinion. If you'd like to be kind to a replacement and just get rid of the scummiest player (in our opinion), that'd be cool. We'd rather that slot be lynched and get two more flips to work with than ask TBM to find a replacement because finding hydra replacements SUCK.

Otherwise, this game's pretty stagnant right now. We really just need a flip to go from there.
Lord Fonzi...that's the reason we think one of the leading wagons should be lynched, but would rather see BW/SVT gone. We feel as though that slot's been the scummiest, but the town is split with regards to who to lynch between FES and DaSpot.

UB, you should put your vote back on and just fucking hammer already. This is fucking ridiculous and this game fucking sucks.

vote: FrogErgoSum

[GummyBear]

Getting a flip is important to keep the game moving and to get the players out of the stagnant mood they're in. Honestly, a flash wagon on us is a dumb idea for two reasons: 1) we haven't been one of the competing wagons (at least one of which is targeted at scum, we think), and 2) there's barely any information to be gained from a quick lynch.

Kickstarting the game and making it more enjoyable for everyone is effective in moving the town forward in this game. We're not gonna go anywhere until we get a flip, and leaving the two wagons that have been in the lead pretty much the entire day is complete crap and you know it.

[GummyBear]

If there's one thing I hate, it's being limited to X options just because it's close to deadline. If I don't think those options are good, I won't take them, and I'm more than willing to spearhead a new one if I have to. I do not lynch for information; I lynch to kill scum.

I agree that flips are usually good for kicking games back into gear, but I'm not going to rush headlong into a lynch just for that.

I don't want to lynch DaSpotthatkillsu; I think they're town. The situation around the Frogito Ergo Sum wagon feels abnormal for me; if Frogito Ergo Sum were scum, I'd expect some epic bussing or something, and their lurky play certainly warrants it. Instead, it's... this, and it bothers me. I'll do a more detailed reading later once I'm semi-done catching up elsewhere, but this is my impression of the situation right now.

Bold is ours.

You're not going to rush headlong into a lynch, but you will start a "flash wagon" on us?

Also, how is lynching FES "rushing headlong" into anything? He's been near-lynch all day long.

Greymarble: that post-analysis has been applicable for a while. Why does it suddenly change your vote now?

FD's vote isn't even worth addressing.

WRONG. It has to be GummyBear.

Wait, wait, wait. We can't say that we should lynch from the two largest wagons all today, but you can say that we have to be the lynch, after getting 3 votes on us out of nowhere at the end of the day?

[GummyBear]

I don't think starting a flash wagon on you is the same as rushing into a lynch.

I disagree. You started a wagon with clear intent to lynch. The modifier "flash" is the same thing as "speedy" or "quick."

Saying there's only two options for lynching today keeps things extremely limited and forces a dilemma. It encourages lazy play, and it's scummy to be in that mindset. I don't think I'm narrowing options by saying you have to be the lynch today; either people agree with me or don't. I'm not saying, "Well, I gotta lynch between DaSpotthatkillsu and Frogito Ergo Sum today, not like there are any other viable options."

Why is saying there's two options to lynch somehow worse than stating that there's only 1 option to lynch? Again, I think it's quite the opposite. Additionally, as to your point about "either people agree with me or they don't": why does that apply to you calling us the only viable lynch, but not us calling FES and Daspot the only viable lynches?

Why not? What do you think of his hop to you?

Our statement was intended to express derision. His hop to us was terrible, and he had pretty much 0 reasoning for it. However, we've seen townFate do that jillions of times. We're reserving judgment until I can see AGM & Fate post together on this topic.

Additionally, I'd like to hear a response from you on this point from our previous post:

Also, how is lynching FES "rushing headlong" into anything? He's been near-lynch all day long.

P-Edit: Grey, what is the point of that post? Care to respond to our question?

[GummyBear]

(Equinox)

Seriously, GummyBear, where was this activity when we were all on "wait and see" mode?

We were busy. Shockingly enough, IRL busy-ness is not a permanent (or always predictable) state.

I'm not calling you "the only viable lynch." In fact, I made a pretty huge gamble voting you; the only other person on this was Lord Fonzi, so I was surprised by the sudden support. I'm pushing your lynch; I'm pretty much going to say "It has to be X" for a lynch I put my weight behind.

You insisted on this, so I'll answer it:

Also, how is lynching FES "rushing headlong" into anything? He's been near-lynch all day long.

If you put it this way, yeah, you're right; if I chose to lynch Frogito Ergo Sum, it wouldn't have been a rushed decision. There would have been a lot of thought going into that.

However, in a situation where I disagree with both of the wagons on the table, telling me (even if the request was a broad one addressed to the thread in general) that there are only those two options means I'll be rushing, headlong, into a lynch I don't necessarily agree with, even if that wagon has been sitting around all day.

Tell me how this is relevant because I fail to see it.

That point is fair, within the situation you mention (where you disagree with both current lynch options). However, you've previously acknowledged the scumminess of both wagons, especially that of FES, so I don't see how that particular hypothetical applies here.

It's relevant because you specifically mentioned not wanting to lynch FES because you'd be rushing headlong into a lynch by doing so, while it seems awfully clear that lynching FES would be far from a rush decision. It appeared to be an attempt to unfairly undermine our point.

Now you're picking stuff out of my posts because you don't like the fact that you got run up to L-2, and it's a wagon filled with pro-town people. Don't start semantics arguments to fill the thread up with noise. If you think I'm scum for doing this, call me out on it; no softballs.

... No, I'm picking stuff out of the posts of everyone who's been posting this evening. You just happen to be posting frequently. Additionally, I'd like you to point out which arguments are semantic. I feel as though you're unfairly discrediting our arguments, again. We don't think you're scum right now; our townread on you stands. You're obviously not pushing for the easy lynch; if you were, you would've just stuck with FES. Honestly, I feel as though our inactivity in the rest of Day 2 is affecting your reactions to us now, and there's at least a slight amount of confirmation bias going on.

[GummyBear]

Lynching FES wouldn't be a rush decision in terms of "time spent" deliberating it. It would be, however, in terms of "hey, we're not comfortable with this recently, but fuck it, don't stop to think on it, just ride it out." That you can't grasp that concept is disturbing, as Equinox has pretty plainly laid that out.

So you're saying that you are no longer in favor of an FES lynch? Because until our vote-post, I don't think you'd expressed that sentiment. You actually voted them to L-1 the post before you voted us. If you were, in fact, uncomfortable with an FES lynch, you certainly weren't showing it.

Do I start with "flash wagon", "rushing" and "headlong"? Yes, a flash wagon is a wagon that builds fast. No, just choosing a flash wagon isn't "rushing headlong" into a lynch. You haven't been a favorite poster all game, and you're aware of this. While the choice to hop off caught me off guard, and I wasn't at first in agreement with the sentiment, we've discussed you pretty regularly. You've managed to coast through the first two days relatively unnoticed, but now that you're under some pressure, the reaction has been pretty sour. Like scum that's been content with no attention, all of the sudden feeling the flames at their feet and panicking because this is very, very real.

I can warily accept your explanation on the flash wagon thing. It makes sense, but I still feel like there was intent to lynch in that statement (however, it's very possible that's OMGUS/survival instinct kicking in). However, as to a sour reaction under pressure? Explain how we've had a poor reaction to pressure. We're finally ready to put some time into this game (and again, our apologies for that not happening sooner), so we've been posting more. Hell, when we made our vote on FES, I figured it would throw a lot of pressure on us, but a) we think they're scum, and b) it's something new and different and would hopefully kickstart discussion. And hey, lookit that, it worked. We're in favor of moving this game along, and hell, if that means us getting lynched, then so be it. Interesting games are better for town.

(Equinox)

I have tomorrow's lynch.

YES WE CAN.

We approve.

[GummyBear]

However, as to a sour reaction under pressure? Explain how we've had a poor reaction to pressure. We're finally ready to put some time into this game (and again, our apologies for that not happening sooner), so we've been posting more. Hell, when we made our vote on FES, I figured it would throw a lot of pressure on us, but a) we think they're scum, and b) it's something new and different and would hopefully kickstart discussion. And hey, lookit that, it worked. We're in favor of moving this game along, and hell, if that means us getting lynched, then so be it. Interesting games are better for town.

You reacted by picking apart my wording in a paragraph about why I disagreed with the DaSpotthatkillsu vs. Frogito Ergo Sum dichotomy. That's not a reaction I'd expect to see from town who just had a wagon explode to L-2 (with threat of L-1) within a span of minutes. When I pressed you about why you asked me that question, you stated it was because you thought I was undermining your arguments due to confirmation bias; your time would be better spent discerning our alignment, not trying to convince me I'm wrong due to some words I wrote.

Explain to me how we are to attempt to discern your alignment any further than we already had. We caught up completely, did ISOs, the works. Our read on you hasn't changed because of this attack on us. We've done as much legitimate scumhunting as possible. We named our reads right up to our vote-on-FES post. I don't understand where more scumhunting was supposed to come from.

Additionally, what kind of reaction DO you expect in this situation? TBQH, I don't really see a possible alternate response.

That said, Gummybear's responses to this wagon have bad. I don't know what would possess them to defend themselves based on an information argument (#760); the "flash wagon"-"running headlong" thing was pointless; "why does that apply to you calling us the only viable lynch, but not us calling FES and Daspot the only viable lynches?" relies on a switcheroo in the meaning of viable from "viable [as far as I'm concerned]" to "[objectively] viable".

We defended ourselves based on an information argument because this game is CLEARLY stagnant. We need info to move it along. I used a consistent meaning of viable throughout my argument; if someone else was using a different meaning, then I expect them to say that we're using different meanings.

Why were you expecting pressure? Why didn't you vote earlier if you thought we were scum? How exactly is a vote for us new? Why would it kickstart discussion? If anything, it strikes me as moving towards ending the Day.

Hi there, obvious fluff-questions. 1: because we hadn't very active, and we were putting you at L-1. 2: Because we were voting someone we thought was scummier. 3: See 1 and 2. 4: See your question number 1. 5: Ummmm... that's because it is? I mean, deadline IS still Saturday, right?

there was more content in gummys ISO than in yoscayke's and FES's

Ummm... what? You think we have more content than YFC? Really?

P-Edit: Care to explain that comment, Grey?

[GummyBear]

Spot: On that note, I want you to give a full case on YFC.

YFC: I'd like you to do the same for Daspot.

I want full cohesive, complete cases.

Also, when does AGM get back? Seriously, this is ridiculous, fate.

P-Edit: I agree with Fonz.

We need a votecount, please.

[GummyBear]

Really, I've seen more reactions to the gummybear wagon in six hours than I saw to FES and DaSpot in the three centuries this day has lasted.

This means something.

... Which is? This post is useless.

Spot, you're reacting really, really poorly right now. I'm actually thinking whichever head is posting may be intoxicated.

[GummyBear]

In the meantime GummyBear is ALSO scum. Look now how she appeals to AGM "When's he coming back so you can move your vote off us!?? SRSLY"

AGM's already approved this vote, and all the posts I have made so far. Course it was retroactive approval since we haven't been on the same time lately, but its good enough. Our reads are in SYNCMODE and we are loving this Gummy lynch.

It's not about the vote, Fate, it's the total lack of reasoning (unless maniacal laughter counts as reasoning now). When you and AGM post together, your responses are measured, logical, readable, and pro-town.

[GummyBear]

Lynch away. Like I said, at least it will give us some information and get the game moving.

[GummyBear]

Gummybear posts pre-wagon: 33 (counting VLAs and /confirms)
Duration: Feb 25th - April 6th
Gummybear posts post Balam vote: 10
Dates: April 6th to April 8th

Glad to see you 'suddenly' have time for the game.

For you and others who've made this point: Sorry that our vote-post led to a wagon on us, but we are not posting more simply because we're under pressure. We have been legitimately really busy in the past few weeks, and now we're mostly caught up with IRL stuff. Additionally, I would hardly consider us having a "history" of posting while under pressure (to whoever said that, I forget who) seeing as how this is the first and only time we've been under any real pressure.

Finally, like I said before, I knew our vote would lead to pressure on us. Singer showed me the post with the vote in it, and I said "people aren't gonna like that. We're totally gonna get votes on us." We decided those votes would be a good thing (and hey, they have been; discussion took off, we're not arguing about the same shit anymore). And like I said before, if it takes us getting lynched to move the game forward and get some information out to the town, then ok.

[GummyBear]

Grey, your 875 is really interesting. That said, there are so many factors that can affect how often one player converses with another that I really doubt it actually means anything...

AGar, you are significantly more violent when intoxicated. It's amusing. On a more serious note, I disagree that what we said was emotional; I feel that it was actually quite rational given the circumstances. Additionally, it's all true.

Thirdly, votes NEED to stay in play. We're a day from deadline; not voting is anti-town.

Lastly, I will be willing to self-hammer, if necessary to procure a lynch today.

[GummyBear]

Lord Fonzi: I could move our vote to DaSpot and make it 3 for him and 1 for FES, but a) DaSpot's not really that scummy to us, and b) 3 and 1 vs. 2 and 2 is more or less nothing when my wagon has 5.

I also realized that I won't be at the computer right at deadline tomorrow. If there hasn't been a lynch by 1700 EST and I'm still at L-1, then I will self-hammer.

[GummyBear]

I am going to be leaving in approximately 1 hour. If there's no hammer and my wagon is still viable, I'll drop it.

Fonz: ... sorry that it's not good enough for you? "halfway to lynch" means mostly nothing, when halfway is still L-3. I'd rather be hopeful for an FES lynch than a Daspot lynch, and my vote being on either one is no more than being hopeful at this point.

[GummyBear]

My thing I'm supposed to be leaving for may have just been canceled. Hammerdrop may be unnecessary at the current moment.

[GummyBear]

this makes me not want to play mafia anymore.....