@MOD – Please confirm that Mafia members are prohibited from trying to pass a Cycling Power to a player they will use their Factional kill on.
@Pops
– I’ll be addressing your responses that started at 445 but as I addressed above a large part of your arguments about Diddin as scum eliminating the abilities I think are invalid. In 1040 when NoPoint as scum was passed the Vig power he was prevented from passing it to either myself or LMP (the Factional and Vig shots that night). I don’t see anything in Mod’s rules the demonstrate this process had changed. If I am correct in my thoughts than any argument that follows the line that 'we lynch Diddin if we think he is scum because he'll just pass the ability to a dead player' are invalid.
This is a very important point regarding 1040 - Had Mykonian pushed for a no-lynch and used the Vig successfully Town would have won the 3 player endgame. NoPoint had no reason to want to pass the ability to a still living player as it opened the slim possibility that he could lose without being lynched.
Pops wrote:I do it with both alignments. It's good play. Deal with it. Lurking is a weak scumtell, and a promise not to be readable for the rest of the game.
Pops wrote:And lurker hunting is good play when no better cases are available.
So which is it … good play or conditional good play? Because even at the point where you went lurker hunting I think there was scummy behavior being exhibited that warranted pressure.
Also, self provided meta is as useful as a $3 bill.
Pops wrote:Explain why fencesitting is a scumtell, or this is an offtopic post. I've been accused of fencesitting in far more of my town games than scum ones and still fail to understand how it's a scumtell, so you'll need to enlighten me.
Fencesitting is a scum-tell. When fence-sitting you are establishing a position that can be used to argue that you were correct on an issue at a later date, regardless of which way the issue fell. Town doesn’t generally have need to do so this and be able to say "See, I found WC Town / Scum" regardless of the outcome when people begin looking at relational tells.
Pops wrote:The net result is still negative. Info about who is not scum with who seems to only have marginally use. One of two players has to flip scum, and then we only get one confirmed innocent.
Disagreed completely. In the later stages of the game having a large pool of information about players who cannot be scum of the same alignment with other players is invaluable to a PoE process, which Town will likely be using since no Town roles look to be ‘set’ in this game.
Pops wrote:And democratic daykilling is bad because the mafia are influencing it? Man, we should stop lynching, the mafia influence that too. vote: No lynch. *eyeroll*
I love this dismissiveness. Straw-manning for the
win
loss.
Pops wrote:No, I'm not scum because I support a better procedure for handling the dayvig than you do. It just means you don't understand it yet, or at the very worst, I'm mistaken. Knowingly pushing bad theory is something I would never try, have never tried, and have never seen with either alignment. It's next to impossible to make a town go along with incorrect approach to the setup, 25 (or even 12) players can't and won't be that dumb. Pushing bad theory as scum has a risk with almost no possible reward.
Yeah, I’m almost positive that you aren’t supporting a ‘better’ procedure when it eliminates possible information. And again, self-provided meta is useless. Finally you overestimate any Town’s ability to be led with scum-driven advice when there is enough vocal and powerful personalities in the scum pool.
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@chkflip re 471
– You feel the need to respond to Pops non-game related comment regarding the Wiki but nothing regarding being called scum by me?
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Parama wrote:^This is a scum claim.
Because scum know there's no counter-argument to that incredible WIFOM - regardless of what you think, my stances on it are the only ones that make sense. And he doesn't like it because he can't use it to push a crap case on me.
Yeah, that’s cute. WIFOM statements like you made at 147 don’t really need anyone to express a counter-argument because, you know, it is built in. Let’s look at your post since you got so hot and bothered by a little criticism.
147 wrote:But the simplest one - Parama is town bombing muhscum - is the simplest one.
Now for some counter-WIFOM:
1. If I was scum, why would I publicly claim that I have a bomb? Couldn't I just keep it silent and quietly pass it to a lurker?
2. If I was scum, why wouldn't I pass the bomb ASAP? I could've passed it in the pre-game, for crying out loud. But I held it until I saw someone ping my scumdar.
First of you’ve just pointed out how Occam’s Razor is full of fail for Mafia. Because the scenario you presented as the simplest one clearly wasn’t the case once we got his flip.
1. As scum you’d publicly claim the bomb for the Town cred you are trying to claim. Duh.
2. Passing it to the first person who you see do anything you could portray as scummy would make them target you would not get attacked for choosing. In an attempt to, again, claim Town cred. Again, duh.
I’ll chock up your reaction to what I see from Fate or any other out-of-control ego on site for the moment.
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RedCoyote wrote:I get what you're saying here, but after diddin claimed, don't you think this throws all individual responsibility out the window? I mean, to an extent, diddin is going to be responsible regardless of what he says or does, but when you claim before shooting, you're effectively trying to rid yourself of total responsibility.
I agree with what you are saying but I don’t ascribe to letting diddin divest himself of responsibility. As Town I think the proper course of action is to let him make the shot himself and thus bear the responsibility for it.
RedCoyote wrote:This is hypocritical, Magna. You say this and then in the next breath say Narsis or EC should be shot. Longing/Lateralus has more posts than EC and Narsis combined as of WC's post count.
It is absolutely not hypocritical.
1. EC is not a lurker and I don’t see how you attempt to classify him as such.
2. Regardless of how many posts Lateralus has made since replacing in when Pops made her lurker-vote Longing had between 2 and 4 posts. You can’t say give Pops credit for pushing on an active player when the activity came after the push. The fact that Pops has agree that she was lurker hunting makes this particular part of the argument by you confusing to me.
3. You are mis-repping my position. I stated that all four of my suspects would be good Vig targets (as I think all are scummy). I stated the Narsis was the best of the four due to low activity. If you disagree that Vigging scummy players with low activity is better than Vigging scummy players who post a lot (and therefore are more likely to slip / respond when questioned) we have a difference of opinion.
4. If it was hypocritical I’d be voting for Narsis. I’m not voting for the ‘lurker’. I’m voting for Pops, the active scum.
RedCoyote wrote:As a cherry on the top, I don't particularly like your chkflip argument either. Helghast, among others, is worse than chkflip in the "concealing his scumhunting" department.
My suspicion of chkflip can be summarized as such but read my long response post for specific posts by chkflip I find scummy.
Helghast is mostly avoiding my wrath based on meta evidence that tells me his ‘I don’t post lots of suspicion’ shtick is a Null-tell.
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Saint wrote:If there is only 1 kill, and he wastes it/uses it on town, what's the use in the ability anyways? where the ability has to pass to town, if he's scum, who is to say they won't pass it to their hit? I will want to know who he passed it to, and if the person ends up dying then he will end up frying.
You can’t use the argument that ‘What if there is only 1 kill’ to justify your approach as we have no idea how many shots diddin’s power has. What if there is more than 1? Then it has plenty of use, including eliminating Mafia pairings.
And as stated above I don’t believe scum are allowed to pass a Cycling ability to someone they use their kill on.
"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.