Mini 1135: Deadmines - DONE. PRAISE AZEROTH.

[Kairyuu]

/confirm

vote: Antihero

Non-random.

[Kairyuu]

Parama is always obvtown. Especially when he's scum, lol.

Kairyuu, if your vote for Antihero is non-random, what is it? VOTE: Kairyuu

If I state that my vote is non-random, then obviously I'm saying I have a reason for making said vote. Furthermore, by not sharing the reason in the post that I made the vote, I am also obviously declaring that I have no intention of sharing that reason until I'm damn good and ready. Both of these things are blatantly obvious if you put even a few seconds thought into it.

Do you think that by not sharing my reasoning on page two of the game that I am acting scummy? If so, why? If not, why are you voting me?

@Batt: Reason for claiming your race/class? Reason for requesting it from Reck?

@Reck: Bub is neutral why?

[Kairyuu]

Reck- Pick someone to Race/Class claim, we are doing this popcorn style.

Everyone needs to claim their race/class in the order of popcorn. Failure to do so is tantamount to claiming scum.

I directed a question at you regarding this. Answer it please before you go demanding a massclaim.

You put a non-random vote down less than an hour into day 1 in a day start game? What reasoning is it possible to have? Moreover, what reasoning is it possible to have and not want to share with town? Not sharing the reasoning is at least anti-town.

Use your brain. Answer your own questions. It really should be quite obvious.

Stop falling for it, smargaret.

Falling for what, pray tell?

Actually I don't see the harm in race/class claiming.

Undead Rogue

here. fucking awesome because I love my undead rogue.

VOTE: Reck

I hate rogues!

This reeks.

[Kairyuu]

I didn't log in for LESS than 24 hours, and you people lynched someone. We were DAMN lucky that the flips happened the way they did.

@Batt (post-mortem): I salute you.

I've now been up for just over 24 hours. Priorities are:
Sleep
Food
Raid
Content post

Several people can expect some fairly pointed questions when I'm conscious enough to remember what they were and who was supposed to get them.

[Kairyuu]

Quick note before I actually put out some content. Though I have no problem with the massclaim itself, you guys ARE aware that requesting it was obviously a gambit, yes? Batt flipped 'nilla. He probably intended to use it to draw the kill, which worked.

Oh, and

vote: Bub

because I'm about 99% sure that's where my reread is going to end up pointing me.

[Kairyuu]

Alright, so here we go.

I'll start with the mini-wagon on Antihero to start the game. Parama's vote was blatantly random, so nothing there. Reck's vote is similarly uninteresting. However, by placing a third vote on a pointless wagon,calling it non-random, and refusing to explain it, I was leaving my options fairly open. Either I would take a bit of heat, allowing me to analyze the motivations of my would-be persecutors, or the wagon would continue to build, allowing me to scrutinize the reasoning behind it, since anything more than three votes (technically two, but I'm excluding myself for the purposes of alignment determination, since I obviously know my own alignment) on a random wagon is at least somewhat fishy. In addition to that, I would get to see how Antihero would react to the votes on him now that there was a bit of pressure there. So no, I did not have an alignment specific reason to vote Antihero. In fact, based on his initial reactions, I'm pretty sure he's town

Bub, of course, follows me with a fourth vote, calling Antihero "obv scum" as his stated reason. I don't like it one bit. You don't call someone obv scum in conjunction with a random vote. This implies tha Bub was stating legitimate suspicion of Antihero, when he had posted no content yet. Not something that a townie would be able to claim, but I'm not sure that Bub-scum would be so blatantly opportunistic. Something to take note of, but not strong enough to draw any real conclusions from.

@smargaret: I want a good explanation as to why not sharing reasoning for voting is "at least anti-town." I expect this to be contained in your next post. If you cannot back up your assertion, then you'd better at least have an explanation for why you felt your pointless posturing was in any way beneficial to the town.

Post 49 by Bub is an echo of smargaret's "questioning" without a vote attached. I've got several problems with this. To start, what could Bub possibly hope to gain by asking a question that was a) already asked on the same page, and b) already ANSWERED on the same page. Secondly, it's a demonstration of hypocrisy, given that Bub did pretty much the exact same thing. If he considers it a problem, then he considers his own action a problem. It follows therefore, that he does not consider it a problem, which raises the question of why he's pretending to care. Thus, by his questioning he is either being opportunistic and facetious, or he is being hypocritical. Either way, his question reeks, and probably deserves a vote.

Sathoris is dumb, and somewhat scummy, but he's cop cleared, so meh.

Enigma's claim post is actually pretty impressive, if he was doing what I think he was doing. His execution of the maneuver fell a bit flat though. First of all, the claim was BLATANTLY joking, and the fact that he was lynched for not believing that, instead of something legitimate, makes me laugh. Secondly, it looks to be specifically designed to draw negative attention to himself (which should have been easy enough to disperse), while throwing off the massclaim, at least long enough for some legitimate cases to start getting thrown around, leaving it on the back burner at best, and forgotten at worst.

lol @ Starbuck thinking I have useable meta on anyone after 6 months of not even visiting the site.

Enigma's following posts are a perfect example of a terribly executed gambit. He gets a golf clap for the initial idea, but I'm very unimpressed by how he handled it.

Hmm. I missed this Enigma post on my first read through. It's not awful, but he overreaches with the OMGUS vote. Toning this one down, and cutting out the garbage between this post and his initial claim could have worked out much better for him.

Oh hey, Starbuck noticed that it was a delaying tactic. Props there.

Reck amuses me. That is all.

ender's wagon jump may very well be a buddy abandoning a sinking ship. IGMEOY

Oh right. I forgot about some of this interaction between Sathorsis and others. He was pretty much obvtown by the end of page 4. The reasons why should have been obvious to anyone paying attention.

Reck's ability/hammer was ill advised, but it netted scum that he had started the case on, so I'm willing to call him strongly town.

Now Day 2. Cop claim yadda yadda yadda. Parama-town -> Sathorsis-town. I'm willing to make that assumption for now.

Bub. Makes. Me. lol. Can we lynch him now?

This gives me a final list that looks like this:

Town:
Kairyuu
Parama
Sathorsis
Reck

Leaning town:
Mae
Starbuck
Antihero

Neutral:
ender
dana

Leaning scum:
smargaret

Scum:
Bub

[Kairyuu]

Surprisingly solid reads from such a short Day 1. Scum lynch helps.

[Kairyuu]

Man, I've missed Kairyuu.

Though I do think you're taking the "obv scum" thing Bub said a bit too seriously.

Probably. If you've got anything better to go off of while I wait for smargaret to dig his hole a bit deeper, feel free to share. Voting dana for lack of content at this point doesn't really count though.

[Kairyuu]

Hey Kai, can you spot the misrep in the third post?

Missed this at first. I assume you're talking about the three posts you quoted. dana is dana. I'd like to hear some actual content from him before I make any judgement calls. I would not be adverse to moving him up or down my list depending on what I hear, but Bub is a better place for my vote at least for now.

[Kairyuu]

@smargaret: Claim your result please. I'd like to hear that before I make any more comments.

[Kairyuu]

My not visiting anyone means very little in terms of my alignment. I'm very confused as to why you've decided to use that as a reason to call me town. All it means is that I didn't use an ability last night. Assuming a standard 12p setup, we'd probably be looking at 3 scum total (I don't know if the extra player changes the theoretical balance by enough to add a scum) if they were confined to a single scumteam, which seems highly likely here. In that case, I could very well be a goon based on your result, or even a scum powerrole who chose not to use an ability.

The choice to track me makes sense given D1, but your conclusions are confusing.

[Kairyuu]

Well, you didn't kill anyone and if you're a rb or something, why wouldn't you act? Why are you trying to convince me you're scum?

I'm not. I'm merely expressing confusion at your sudden switch from "scumscumscumscumscum" to "totally town" after a single track produces a non-result.

In other news, I should probably get around to posting about the page or so that I said I'd comment on after you revealed your result.

[Kairyuu]

WoW is distracting, and tanking Deadmines without heirlooms while all of the dps HAVE heirlooms is annoying as fuck. I have food arriving shortly, and will be rereading/posting once I've eaten it.

[Kairyuu]

Back. Reading now. Expect something in 1-2 hours.

[Kairyuu]

(disclaimer: Partway through, some of my reads took a 180. The post has been left unaffected to better display my thought process)

Let's begin. My last big post contained this:

@smargaret: I want a good explanation as to why not sharing reasoning for voting is "at least anti-town." I expect this to be contained in your next post. If you cannot back up your assertion, then you'd better at least have an explanation for why you felt your pointless posturing was in any way beneficial to the town.

smargaret's next post was this:

Kairyuu - It's more or less moot now since I don't think you're scum (I got a one-shot tracker last night), but you pretty much explained why your post struck me as off. I was trying to pressure you and cut off some of those options I saw you leaving open.

In general I prefer to see reasons spelled out so we can come back to them later if necessary, but I do recognize there are times when it's better to vote and shut up

. I didn't see this as one of those situations.

dana - the case on Bub is more than just non-contribution. He's either skimming or rolefishing, based on his popcorn to Sathoris. I'm not sure how I feel about the massclaim restarting either; it was a gambit and it's served its purpose, I don't see any need to reveal any more information.

VOTE: Bub

Really couldn't care less as to your current "read" on me for the purposes of the above question. I'm fully aware of WHAT you did, thanks. I asked you WHY. I'll ask you one more time. Why is not sharing my reasoning "at least anti-town" (hint: the bolded is NOT an answer to that question)? If you cannot answer that, explain why you felt that your posturing was beneficial to the town. Note that if you decide to answer the second, you ARE admitting that your behavior WAS mere posturing, and was not intended to be taken as an actual comment on my alignment.

MOVING ON.

Starbuck's post where she ends up voting smargaret seems somewhat off. I can't really put my finger on it, but her D1 posting seemed more genuine.

OMGWTFBBQPANCAKE!!!!one!!!11eleven! ender's post. Just . . . what even is that? I cannot even in good faith call that scummy. It's just . . . completely illogical.

Starbuck, as far as the reasons thing, I want to see them spelled out for reference later so if you vote Person A for lurking and then don't vote Person B in similar circumstances for lurking and Person B flips scum, we can draw a connection between you and Person B. You know, because we're playing mafia.

In theory, this is wonderful. In practice, people miss things like this pretty often. Just saying.

@Starbuck: What bothers me is that you seem to just immediately believe the one-shot cop claim over the one-shot tracker claim, whereas I saw no difference in HOW they both claimed. There very well be a role out there that can give out two abilities per night, or there may be a mechanic (like a loot/drop system when a scum dies?) that automatically "rolls" for one-shot abilities. /speculation

The loot system would be really cool. I may have to steal that for use in a game if I ever get back to modding.

Apparently there was very little for me to comment on when I originally asked for the result claim. Meh.

dana's 175 I actually like. It sounds like the old dana-town that I remember from ages ago. Not that that's exactly a good thing, because said old dana-town was very good at getting himself lynched, but it's still a read.

I tracked Kairyuu because I've neither read nor played with him before and thus have no sense of how to read him, and because he was my strongest scum read still living at the end of Day 1.

This is self-contradictory. If you didn't know how to read me, then how did you have a scum read of me?

Kay. Starbuck is asking the right questions again. Suspicion temporarily assuaged.

Aaaand then she up and votes dana over something silly. Reeallly not making it easy to read you here.

Beginning of Antihero's 188 is super A++ win. Besides, apart from what you mentioned (which I noticed too, but kinda ignored), he hasn't actually been scummy. Just kinda . . . there.

Reck, you can stop pestering dana about content any time now. If you think he's scummy for it, then just lynch him and be done with it. Unless his entire PERSONALITY has changed, he's not going to respond well to your methods.

@dana: Mind shutting them up? I'm pretty sure all they care about is getting a more thorough playback of the game thus far from your perspective. I'd like that too, for the record.

Starbuck: There is a difference between "my strongest scumread" and "a strong scumread". I've stated before that Day 1 was too short to build any really concrete reads. I went with what I had.

You're missing the point. If you can't read me, then you can't HAVE a read OF me. Thus, anything I do would be, by definition, null. Further, in order for a null read to be your "strongest scum read" EVERYONE ELSE would have to be a town read. Your response does not answer for anything.

For the record, if we assume you're town, I fully understand your decision to track me. You had a stated suspicion of me at the end of the Day, and an ability that may have caught me if you were right and I made the kill. However, stating that you tracked me because you couldn't read me and because I was your strongest scum read really IS self-contradictory. One or the other, please.

Fucking hell. Writing up the first of the two above paragraphs just made me cringe so badly. My gut is SCREAMING that smargaret isn't the right place to look. Starbuck is looking better and better for a wagon.

The following exchange between Starbuck and smargaret pretty much confirms it for me. Looking at the two side by side, smargaret seems very sincere, if a bit overzealous (marked by several instances of getting facts wrong, which is definitely a town tell in my book), while Starbuck seems to be pushing way too hard on the things that I'm reading as town tells. I gotta say, I'm going to trust my gut on this one and move smargaret up my list, and Starbuck down it. Until Bub stops being all disappeared and actually tries to PLAY the game though, my vote is solidly on him.

Antihero is wrong, but still very town.

New list time.

Town:
Kairyuu
Parama
Sathorsis
Reck
Antihero

Leaning town:
Mae
dana
smargaret

Neutral:
N/A

Leaning scum:
Starbuck
ender

Scum:
Bub

[Kairyuu]

Idiots. Fairly certain that dana is going to flip town now.

There's also the fact that we had another FIVE PAGE DAY. /sigh

[Kairyuu]

Because yes, I

HAVENT

been opposing his lynch all Day. Being ignored pisses me off, ESPECIALLY when I'm right.

[Kairyuu]

My top suspect is, was, and will be Bub. Starbuck is secondary. None of my reads have changed based on the lynch. Hence, everything you just said is dumb.

[Kairyuu]

So I assume, regardless of dana's flip, you'll be pushing for a Bub lynch tomorrow?

A town flip is irrelevant to his alignment in my eyes, and a scum flip (however unlikely) puts a pretty strong link between Bub and dana. Therefore, I see no reason for my top suspect to change unless role-based info is brought forward to clear Bub or condemn someone else.

[Kairyuu]

Whoever has/was given a roleblock or doc protect last night should claim their target. A block confirms a scum, and a doc protect confirms a townie. I know this because I was given a 1-shot kill last night and shot Bub, so the scum kill is missing.

ninja-edit: What parama said.

@Parama: I knew it was a blocked kill because I

made

the kill. How did you know?

[Kairyuu]

Because I gave you the kill.

I see. Thanks for that. Why me though?

As for how to proceed today, I'm liking the idea of a Starbuck wagon, but a conf-scum through roleblock would be much preferable to going on what amounts to a gut read.

ender would also be an option, but that would feel a bit too much like a policy lynch for comfort.

[Kairyuu]

And why does no result imply scum exactly? I see no reason to disbelieve that you got the investigation, but as with smargaret's result, I

really

don't understand why you're making an alignment call regarding somthing that is literally useless for determining alignment.


Ninja edit (seriously now, 3 in a row?):

Ok, so now we're looking for a roleblocker claim. The likelihood that Antihero was shot at is certainly plausible, but there were much better targets out there (namely Reck, Parama, and Sathoris), so I'm not yet willing to discount the idea that Starbuck was actually blocked in a kill attempt on one of them, as opposed to a cop on Mae. It's certainly less likely now though.

Ninja edit 2:

Come ON people. Are you really that dumb? First of all, her claim fits with flavor, as priests CAN bubble themselves AND bubbling someone puts a debuff on them that prevents them from being bubbled again for 15 seconds. Second of all, when you've got a claimed doc, you look for a counterclaim, and if you don't get one, you DON'T lynch. That is MAFIA 101.

[Kairyuu]

FUCKING HELL PEOPLE. I WANT TO POST WITHOUT BEING NINJA-ED SEVENTY TRILLION TIMES.

[Kairyuu]

FUCKING HELL PEOPLE. I WANT TO POST WITHOUT BEING NINJA-ED SEVENTY TRILLION TIMES.

Don't you mean rogue-d? =P

Nope. Ninja-ed. Rogues can try, but burst in pvp isn't enough at level cap, and instant cast, no mana, 20k self-heals are usually enough to outlast them.

Now answer my question before I vote you on principle.

[Kairyuu]

Well there's that explained. Reck is conf-town. Need tracker results now and then we can decide what we're doing.

[Kairyuu]

To be quite honest, the pretty much conf-town inventor is quite a bit more useful to keep around than the claimed vanilla, however obv-town you may be. Mae should be protecting Parama tonight.

[Kairyuu]

/facepalm

See, that was REALLY stupid. By stating that you'd used up your last ability by absorbing the kill last night, you pretty much claimed vanilla. Thus, unless NO BETTER TARGET presented itself, you would not be targetted for the kill. By redacting that, you've now become a much more likely candidate both for the kill and for a roleblock if the scum have one. Good job.

@Starbuck: The top section of the double ninja post.

[Kairyuu]

Ok. Nothing changes about my question. Why. Does. That. Make. Mae. Scum?

[Kairyuu]

@smargaret: I believe the implication is that Parama also sent out a track . . somehow.

[Kairyuu]

@Reck: What's done is done, and I wouldn't be surprised if Enigma was the scum RB anyway, so you'll probably at least get off your kill.

As for Parama, the only explanation for how he knows there's a track result coming is if he sent it out, which means he somehow sent two abilities last night. Of course, that makes no sense now that I think about it, so I'm hoping he can clear that up.

In the mean time,

vote: Starbuck

.

Ninja edit responses coming in next post to avoid more ninja-editting.

[Kairyuu]

Ok. Nothing changes about my question. Why. Does. That. Make. Mae. Scum?

Why does it not make Mae scum?

I get the whole priest bubble thing, but to be able to protect people and protect herself seems a bit overpowered.

You voted BEFORE the claim IN YOUR NO RESULT CLAIM POST. So essentially YOU linked the idea of getting a no-result to voting Mae. I want an explanation for it. Perfectly happy with my vote regardless at this point.

We're lynching one of (Starbuck/ender). Reck can then shoot the other, and it's game over, town win.

Ninja-edit: What's the likelihood of two Blood Elf paladins in the same setup? Pretty much none, right? I AM A BLOOD ELF PALADIN AND WE ARE LYNCHING STARBUCK NOW.

[Kairyuu]

Also, why is it that when I'm NOT trying to submit a post I can go for a good 5-10 minutes without seeing one, but when I am, EVERYONE ELSE IS TOO?

[Kairyuu]

Oh, and Reck, as I believe I already mentioned, she voted Mae BEFORE Mae's claim, so any excuse she makes about an "overpowered" claim is backpeddling.

[Kairyuu]

Oh, and as we now have a counterclaim situation, anyone who does not vote either me or Starbuck in their next post will be bereted thoroghly.

ninja: Because during one of your attempts to dodge my question (which you STILL haven't answered) you claimed that such was the reason you voted her. Post 304 to be exact.

[Kairyuu]

@Inhim: I'd be fine with that.

[Kairyuu]

@smargaret: Because you're using your brain.

[Kairyuu]

@Parama: So . . . tracker result will be coming from who? You're a 2/night inventor?

[Kairyuu]

Very well. Unlike some people, I know how to wait when asked.

unvote

Ninja: Fair enough. I'm still curious though, since I don't see how you could know that there was a track if you didn't send it out (kind of like how I wanted to know how you knew that a kill was blocked).

[Kairyuu]

@Antihero: Parama stated that he KNEW that there was a tracker result coming, but yet he claimed to have given me the kill I used on Bub. Hence, logical progression.

[Kairyuu]

@Starbuck: It might be because it took several pages of TWO PEOPLE asking you the same damn question to get a straight answer out of you, and that answer was "oops, I messed up, let me reread." In smargaret's case she either caught her own mistakes shortly after making them, or a single comment was enough to get her to realize it.

Also, you're playing on technicalities again, and it's really bothering me. Post 304. Read it. TELL ME HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE INTERPRETED.

[Kairyuu]

. . . . . . Remind me why I'm bothering to actually get you to answer anything again?

Post 304 is the post where you try to answer my question with the statement that Mae's claim is overpowered. Thus, you are stating that her claim is the reason you voted her. You're obviously implying that this interpretation is incorrect. HOW IS IT SUPPOSED TO BE INTERPRETED THEN?

Also, it should be blatantly obvious that she can protect either herself OR someone else each Night. This was contained in her claim.

[Kairyuu]

OOIJOKDDOQIJWDOWHODUHQWIHQWIHDWIQHDIUQWHDIUQWHIDQWHDIQWHIDQWIUDHQWIHDIUQWH

That is all.

I'm done with this argument. I will be awaiting Parama's indication that he's heard from the mod and will revote once that happens. I don't feel like watching Starbuck ignore the fact that I'm arguing the exact same thing as smargaret, but only replying to smargarets posts, since mine are the ones with the evidence that she claims to want.

[Kairyuu]

@smargaret: She's pretty much just trying to bait you into doing something stupid at this point. I know she's not stupid. She can see the evidence, but is choosing to ignore it. Everyone else can see it too. May as well stop taking the bait, at least until we've heard from other people.

[Kairyuu]

vote: Starbuck

I assume you have no intention of sharing, yes?

[Kairyuu]

Alright. You've answered the question. I'm not satisfied with the answer, and I think that nothing you've done today has been anything but scummy, and don't believe your claim to have made a mistake, but the question is answered. I have nothing else to "rip you to shreds" about, so I'm satisfied with just lynching you now.

Plus there's the fact that your claim is bullshit, so I'm pretty happy with my vote right now.

[Kairyuu]

Oh, and you should probably be voting me right now, since from your (faked) perspective, I

must

be scum, right?

[Kairyuu]

Oh, and you should probably be voting me right now, since from your (faked) perspective, I

must

be scum, right?

No, because I can see where the last however many pages can paint me in a scumtastic light.

That was my jab at you not voting in a 1v1, especially when you specifically said you doubted my counterclaim. I see absolutely no reason to reuse a race/class combo unless Inhim was SPECIFICALLY trying to cause a mislynch in the case of a massclaim. Of course, if that was the intention, then he would have to have ignored the fact that if either of us were forced to claim for ANY reason, the other would likely counterclaim, which is either a deliberate bastard move, or a fairly big design error, both of which I doubt are the case here.

[Kairyuu]

@Antihero: Post 258 he claims to have given me the kill I used on Bub, and . . . I am a fucking dumbass. It was YOU who claimed that there would be tracker results today. Changes nothing, except that I'm no longer confused about Parama being a double-inventor.

[Kairyuu]

Current claims:
Kairyuu: Blood elf Paladin
Starbuck: Blood elf Paladin
Reck: Undead Rogue
Mae: Undead Priest
Parama: None
Sathoris: Paladin of some sort
ender: None
Antihero: None
smargaret: None

If we're going to continue the massclaim, one of the bottom 5 on that list should start it off and popcorn it to the next. My vote is ender, but I doubt he'll show up.

I have nothing constructive to say about the last page or so, since it essentially boils down to several people waffling about whether or not to accept that Starbuck is obv-scum, and I've made my position on that matter very clear.

[Kairyuu]

Because he mentioned Ardent Defender as a passive ability he has, which is a prot pally move.

[Kairyuu]

@Reck: No shit. Sathoris is also conf-town from Parama's cop investigation, so it's either me or Starbuck. PICK ONE.

[Kairyuu]

Several people have mentioned that he's been online and posting elsewhere while ignoring this game. He's probably your scumbuddy, which I've said two or three times by now.

[Kairyuu]

Parama claimed to have GIVEN me the vig kill, and knew the scum kill was blocked before I said so. Try again Scummy McScumscum.

[Kairyuu]

Okay, there's three options for Enigma to have an impossible class:

a. The mod's a bastard.
b. Enigma is lying.

Seriously, I don't believe the mod is that much of a bastard to do something like this. So, Enigma. Any justification?

^Mae is scum

It's possible, but not all that likely. Plus, me or Starbuck is today's play.

[Kairyuu]

Parama claimed to have GIVEN me the vig kill, and knew the scum kill was blocked before I said so. Try again Scummy McScumscum.

So how was I blocked as well as the scum kill being blocked?

Because you WERE the scum kill, and you're lying about the cop.

I've got an idea.

@all: Anyone who can give out an ability that is received during the DAY phase should claim. Starbuck claimed to have received her cop investigation at the start of DAY two.

Thus far, all three claimed one-shots were given during the Night phase, and usable immediately. I dunno about Parama and smargaret yesterday, but mine also didn't come with a name, just a note that I'd been given a vig kill, whereas Starbuck mentioned Arcane Intellect. Thus, if there are no more priest claims, Starbuck is confirmed scum, and if there is no one who can give an ability that is received during the Day phase, Starbuck is confirmed scum.

So yeah, massclaim needs to continue.

[Kairyuu]

unvote, vote: Kairyuu

My preferred lynch out of the two, though I'll hammer Starbuck without mercy if she gets to L-1.

State your case please.

[Kairyuu]

unvote, vote: Kairyuu

My preferred lynch out of the two, though I'll hammer Starbuck without mercy if she gets to L-1.

State your case please.

I'd prefer not to.

Too fucking bad. If you intend to lynch me, you're giving reasons so that I can properly respond.

[Kairyuu]

Thus far, all three claimed one-shots were given during the Night phase, and usable immediately. I dunno about Parama and smargaret yesterday, but mine also didn't come with a name, just a note that I'd been given a vig kill, whereas Starbuck mentioned Arcane Intellect. Thus, if there are no more priest claims, Starbuck is confirmed scum, and if there is no one who can give an ability that is received during the Day phase, Starbuck is confirmed scum.

At the beginning of Day 2, it came as a note stating that I had a cop investigation available for Night 2.

At the beginning of this day, the flavor that I was confused about stated that Arcane Intellect had faded/been dispelled and that I was blocked.

The two are seperate things. My point is that if EITHER we don't get another priest claim who is capable of USING arcane intellect (we already have Mae's ability usage claims) OR we don't get someone to come forward who can give out abilities that are received during the Day, you're conf-scum. Of course, if you're not lying about either of those, we'll get both. Still leaves the claim/counter and the fact that you're quite scummy.

[Kairyuu]

Fucking hell. Just realized that Starbuck has been lynched, and of course NOW something happens that potentially changed the situation.

@RECK: THIS IS IMPORTANT. IF BY SOME CHANCE STARBUCK FLIPS TOWN, DO NOT KILL ME. I WILL NOT RESIST A LYNCH TOMORROW, BUT I BEG YOU TO EITHER HOLD YOUR SHOT OR SHOOT ENDER (MUST BE ENDER, I WILL EXPLAIN TOMORROW).

[Kairyuu]

And of course now the scum gets to WIFOM over whether or not to kill me themselves even if she was town. Sometimes I

really

like being vague.

For the record, I'm still about 85-90% sure that she's scum caught fakeclaiming, but something came up that took that down from 100%.

[Kairyuu]

The scum also get to WIFOM about if I'm going to vig ender or Kairyuu.
OR MAEMUKI BWAHAHAHAHAHA.

See, that makes my life considerably more difficult. I don't care if you lynch me tomorrow, or shoot me tomorrow night (assuming Starbuck is town, which I'm assuming she is for the sake of argument), but tonight, either hold your shot, or shoot ender. THESE ARE YOUR ONLY REAL OPTIONS IF YOU INTEND TO HELP THE TOWN.

[Kairyuu]

If RECK, and RECK ONLY, demands clarification, I will share. My life is in his hands, and I quite honestly don't give a flying fuck about the opinions of people who can't shoot me right now.

[Kairyuu]

And of course, when she flips scum, I'm going to feel like a total dumbass for putting an even bigger target on my head than actually helping drive the lynch already put there.

Ninja: Starbuck was not lying about the cop investigation. I got a pm very recently (like, within the last few hours) stating that I was supposed to have gotten one as well at the beginning of today. This verifies one of the three possible things that could have confirmed her scum, and also means that I have a cop investigation to use tonight, and thus do NOT want you to shoot me, even if I would have been sacrificed to a bad assumption (if she's town, then the 1v1 was obviously untrue, from my perspective).

Of course, if the scum have a roleblocker, I'm fucked.

[Kairyuu]

The investigation will be used on Mae, obviously.

[Kairyuu]

Again, when Starbuck flips scum, I'm going to feel like a complete idiot for everything I've just said.

[Kairyuu]

You're aware that EVEN IF you flip town, AND Reck shoots a townie (me, for example) in addition to the scum kill, we're still looking at 6 alive, with 2-3 confirmed townies, right? The odds are still in our favor, so either you're just getting pissy because you got lynched for being scummy AS YOU ADMITTED YOURSELF, or you're scum trying to demoralize us, in which case, good luck, because we pretty much can't lose at this point once you flip scum and Reck shoots your buddy ender tonight.

[Kairyuu]

You keep going on and on about being a dumbass if I flip scum. Nobody else has verified that they got a cop investigation yesterday, I even dropped the hint about it by saying that I believed Parama over smargaret. How dense do you have to be? Someone picked up on it and that's exactly why I was blocked.

/yawn

1. When you flip scum, I will VERY LIKELY either die or get blocked, depending on whether or not the scum has a blocker remaining (because in the situation where you're scum, you were either blocked by a TOWN blocker, or lied about being blocked). I will NOT get blocked if the scum does not have a roleblocker, because I will be confirmed town by your flip (essentially), and have already CLAIMED to have a cop investigation to use.

2. If you flip town, and scum have a blocker (and Reck shoots a townie that is not me), oh well, I'll have to fight really hard tomorrow to save myself, and I'll probably lose that fight due to a situation beyond my control (the 1v1), resulting in a scum win. I'm ok with that, since I played to the best of my ability. Note that FOUR DIFFERENT THINGS must go wrong tonight to put us in that situation.

3. If you flip town, and scum have a blocker, but Reck shoots one of the scum (ender, if he listens to me about who he should be shooting tonight REGARDLESS OF YOUR FLIP), we'll be looking at 5-1 going into D4. I'll still fight my lynch at least somewhat, but again I don't expect to win. It's a setback, but I've got at least a reasonable amount of faith in the players who will be alive in the 4 player endgame that would result from that, and I'd be rooting for them rooting out the last scum with no hesitation.

4. If you flip town, and scum do not have a blocker, several situations are possible. In the case that I am killed to avoid my cop being used to break the game (I need to run the numbers on that, but it's possible), then Reck shooting a townie puts us in the same situation as in situation 2, except I'm dead, so the lynch of the day has a chance to hit scum and continue the game. It is a second-worst case scenerio, but still WINNABLE if the remaining town plays well.

5. In the case where I am killed by scum and Reck shoots scum, We're looking at a 5-1 on D4, with 2-3 confirmed townies, and no Kairyuu to distract the rest of the town from having TWO MORE chances at lynching the last scum.

6. In the case where I am NOT killed, and Reck shoots town, I'll have a cop result to contribute at the very least before having to fight for my life against a loss. If it's a guilty, then I'll be able to go at another 1v1 with all of the ferocity that I was apparently known for in my early days on site and I might just keep the game going for another Day at least. Maybe even see a town win at the end, alive or dead.

7. In the case where I am NOT killed, and Reck shoots scum, I'll either end up sharing my result and going down to a lynch for a confirmed town win (guilty, or broken game), or fight rather less hard than strictly necessary, and get lynched for a somewhat better situation than 3, since there will be 1 more confirmed townie alive.

8. Reck shooting me plays out exactly like 4, except that there's one more potential mislynch target (because scum aren't going to be nice enough to shoot a townie who it would be possible to get lynched). Definitely not a good shot at winning, but it's preferable to 2 (and ONLY 2).

Those are certainly not the ONLY possible situations (there's a few more situations in which Reck doesn't shoot at all, but he's almost definitely going to shoot, so I'm discounting them), but they're by far the most likely, and of those, only ONE has what I believe to be an almost negligible chance of a town win. Regardless, if you believe that the game will be lost for town by your lynch, you MUST BELIEVE THAT I AM TOWN AS WELL. Thus, your position isn't even close to logical from a town perspective, and if you ARE town, I was probably right, and you're just getting pissy over being lynched. Get over it. It happens.

[Kairyuu]

...not sure how Kairyuu getting a cop shot clears him and/or Starbuck.

It doesn't. It just means that 1 of the three things I was after her for potentially lying about (getting a cop shot during the DAY, having some "arcane intelligence" thing, and claiming Blood Elf Paladin when I am a Blood Elf Paladin) was actually true, which I would have known had I received my own cop shot at the beginning of the day as I was supposed to. However, 1 of the two remaining I know FOR CERTAIN to be a lie (barring mod shenanigans, as mentioned), and the other one could have been proven/disproven with the continuation of the massclaim. She still has the 1-2 lies and her play today and at least part of yesterday counting against her imo though, so I'm still NEARLY certain that she'll flip scum.

@Antihero: Starbuck herself said that she doesn't know what Arcane Intellect was. All she knows is that it "faded or was dispelled" according to her.

[Kairyuu]

Though, of course, the possibility exists that she made up the name to claim it was her cop investigation, and then when I mentioned that my kill came with no such title, she backtracked before having committed to it fully. Such a possibility is irrelevant at this point, as she's already been lynched though.

[Kairyuu]

/yawn

Thread. Lock. Please.

[Kairyuu]

Yes, because "Hai guyz, I has X power and Y is clear!!!" works out so well for town.

Starbuck, I never said Bub got the vig shot. I said he got targeted by the vig shot. Which is true.

No one cleared anyone, but it was ME who claimed my power, since it potentially changed the game state.

[Kairyuu]

Already said I didn't. Several times.

I also apparently missed a lot of posts, one of which actually does raise an interesting issue.

Parama may very well be a typical inventor, that can invent multiple things (generally all 1-shots), so he COULD have sent the track N1 (this game has no mention of a limited number of active abilities/day in the rules). However, I'm not sure how likely that is, and if it isn't the case, it literally leaves only ender as someone who would have been able to hand out that ability N1.

FULL massclaim needs to happen at the beginning of D4, BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE. I want to see how many of these potential discrepancies can be explained. THIS WILL HAPPEN EVEN IF I AM DEAD OR I WILL HAUNT YOU ALL.

[Kairyuu]

Yeah I was about to say.
If Starbuck does indeed flip town, u ded bro

Why do you keep flip-flopping on this? First you say you're going to listen to me. Then you say you might shoot me. Then you say you're going with my plan. Now you say you're definitely not. MAKE UP YOUR MIND.

I also don't understand why my post acknowledging that something might be off about SMARGARET'S claim leads you to decide to shoot me for sure if Starbuck flips town.

Logic. Please use it.

@Starbuck: LEARN TO FUCKING READ. PARAMA TOLD THE TOWN THAT HE GAVE ME A VIG LAST NIGHT. THEREFORE THERE IS NO MISSING KILL NIGHT 1, AND NO POSSIBILITY THAT MY KILL OF BUB WAS THE SCUM KILL UNLESS ME, PARAMA, AND RECK ARE ALL FUCKING SCUM. THEREFORE THE POSSIBILITY IS ZERO.

ender is scum. This is pre-cata deadmines. Worgen don't exist. Note that we're fighting Mr. Smite.

[Kairyuu]

That last line was REALLY FUCKING IMPORTANT btw.

[Kairyuu]

You know what. Fullclaim. Any abilties you have, and any actions you've taken all game, claim them.

[Kairyuu]

Meh. Your claim is still physically impossible unless the flavor is ALSO misleading. Worgen were not introduced until Cataclysm went live, and the Deadmines dungeon was changed with the Shattering patch, which introduced the world changes, several weeks (I think) earlier.

Thus, it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for a Worgen ANYTHING to have EVER run pre-Shattering Deadmines.

[Kairyuu]

Hmm. smargaret. Fullclaim.

Parama as well. Specifically, I need to know ASAP whether or not you gave smargaret a track N1

Antihero should claim IF AND ONLY IF he is a roleblocker.

[Kairyuu]

*grumbles about claiming in twilight*

Dwarven mage, VT.

This is . . . . also a new race/class combo for cata. . . .

Either ender and smargaret are both very bad scum for making the EXACT same mistake, which is ALMOST exactly like the one Enigma made, or the original slip was invalid, and we know nothing about ender at all.

[Kairyuu]

It's also almost 5am, and I have important shit to do tomorrow. Sleeping now.

[Kairyuu]

Ok, so here are the options based on what just happened. Note that all of this is said WITHOUT an investigation result, as I haven't gotten that back yet.

1. Mae stopped the scum kill. She, and the person she protected (assuming it was not one of the already conf-townies), are confirmed town. Reck is also confirmed town by this (he was actually NOT confirmed town previously, since he could very easily have claimed a 1-shot immunity to throw doubt on Mae's successful doc of Antihero and/or toss in a second option to make it harder to confirm either him or Mae scum via claims). At that point we have Mae, Reck, Parama, Sathoris, and the unknown protectee as conf-town, where the protectee is one of me, smargaret, or Antihero. In this case, that leaves only 2 non-confirmed, who MUST be scum. Regardless, if this is the case, since we have an available mislynch, lynching all three of us on the non-confirmed list results in an auto-win for town.

2. Sathorsis ate the scum kill and survived due to ardent defender. This confirms Reck town, because if he was submitting the kill on ender, he could not have been doing the scum kill, and a double kill out of scum is just not feasible. If my investigation of Mae comes up town, this leaves the same situation as above, with Parama, Reck, Mae, and Sathoris conf-town, and Antihero, smargaret, and myself as lynch candidates. Note that in this case, I am the one who MUST be lynched today, to confirm my cop result accurate. Another confirmed town win.

3. ender WAS the scum kill. This would be the confirmed situation if Sathoris does not claim to have lost his ardent defender, and my cop investigation on Mae comes up scum. I'd be perfectly willing to submit to a lynch to prove my results accurate, because it confirms that the scumteam is Mae and Reck, and we ALSO have a confirmed town win in this case.

4. Any case where Reck is scum with one of Antihero, smargaret, or myself cannot be narrowed down to a confirmed town win. Unfortunately, this situation cannot be distinguished from 1. since we have no way to PROVE that Mae stopped a kill.

5. It is also possible that I get a guilty on Mae, but the scum kill was stopped by Sathoris' ardent defender. In this case, Reck is confirmed town, we lynch me today to confirm my result, and lynch Mae tomorrow. Day 6 will be a 3p lylo with 1 confirmed townie, and a choice between smargaret and Antihero for the remaining scum.

Note that NO OTHER SITUATION is feasible. 2 and 3 are broken games. 1 and 4 might be distinguished with a massclaim (especially if we cannot find a tracker-giver, because that will confirm smargaret scum). 5 is a 50/50.

Therefore, the best play for RIGHT NOW is a massclaim. Reck, Mae, smargaret, and I have all fullclaimed, which leaves Parama, Antihero, and Sathoris that we're waiting on.

[Kairyuu]

Innocent result on Mae.

@Mae: No townie, obviously. We have nothing stating that Reck was targeted by a kill last Night.

With an inno on Mae, 5 is ruled out. Reck looks pretty bad due to the flavor too, which means we're PROBABLY looking at 4. A massclaim is even more necessary now. Antihero should claim first, as he's the only unclaimed who is also unconfirmed.

Parama and Sathoris are EFFECTIVELY CONFIRMED (unless Parama is scum, which is a practically nonexistant chance after N2). Maemuki will be COMPLETELY CONFIRMED as soon as I die.

This leaves 4 unconfirmed. From MY perspective, it's a won game. 2 of Reck, Antihero, and smargaret are scum, and we've got an available mislynch. HOWEVER, I am not stupid enough to think that I'm trusted to be town, or worthy of that trust. Everything points to me being scum, so I will almost definitely be lynched.

That will mean tomorrow (because I'm getting lynched TODAY OR NOT AT ALL to confirm Mae) we will probably be in a 3-2 lylo with 2 confirmed townies. Tonight, Mae will have a 50% chance to stop the scum kill. She will be protecting either herself or Parama and will NOT REVEAL WHO. Worst case scenario, she picks wrong, and tomorrow starts with the situation above. Mid-case scenario, she guesses right, and there's no kill tonight, putting us at a 4-2 mylo with 3 confirmed townies. Essentially the same as the previous, except that there's more people available to discuss, and it would take TWO people guessing wrong to result in a lost game. Best case scenario, scum kills an unconfirmed, and hands town a win. This will very likely not happen.

As I said before, if you do not lynch me today, YOU WILL NOT LYNCH ME. By leaving me alive after today, you are stating that you trust that I am town, and thus that Mae is town. From there, we have a WON GAME. In all likelihood, it's Reck and smargaret as the remaining scum, so if you don't lynch me, I'd support either of their lynches, though if we DO confirm smargaret scum via massclaim, we ARE lynching her, and my above statement will carry over to tomorrow.

Ninja:
Reck's statement makes NO sense. But not in the scummy sense. Before I do any more speculating, this massclaim is happening. Doesn't matter who claims first. Everyone claims in the order they see this post.

[Kairyuu]

Oh hey. Wait a second. We probably DO have a won game regardless. We've got a cop-giver out there that is confirmed town. If it's Antihero, we win. Reck and smargaret would be scum for sure from my standpoint, and we could lynch me, and then them to win.

[Kairyuu]

You will NOT lynch me before a massclaim. ESPECIALLY when that massclaim will possibly BREAK THE GAME. Seriously, try to disprove my logic, or show that it's scum motivated. PRETTY MUCH ALL OF THE PROPOSED PLANS INVOLVE LYNCHING ME TODAY.

That said, you two are probably the scum, so I don't expect you to listen to reason and/or act in a way motivated by pro-town sentiments, so meh.

[Kairyuu]

@smargaret: By the way, I'd love to see your reasoning for why I would act the way I did yesterday as scum. Starbuck was far and away the easiest mislynch I could have pushed, and I could have probably even sat back and let YOU do all of the pushing for me, since you were pretty much saying the same things as I was. In addition, I had no suspicion on me whatsoever and probably could have coasted to an easy win in endgame. Why would I throw that all away by counterclaiming a vanilla townie and setting myself up for heavy suspicion the next Day when she flipped town?

Or perhaps the alternative makes a BIT more sense. That I legitimately found Starbuck suspicious, and when I saw what I believed to be a fakeclaim, I jumped in with a counterclaim to seal the deal on her lynch.

[Kairyuu]

/yawn

You weren't saying that D2 when I was making wallposts about my reads. I will be the first to admit that the part I like best about mafia is solving the puzzles presented by the setup so that I can assure my side a win. The one or two mountainous games I've been in were horribly boring for me, and I'm pretty sure I replaced out of it/them. That said, from the games you've played with me or modded while I play, you also know that I'm GOOD at coming up with optimal strategies.

Personally, I've got no problem with your play all game. You've acted in a very pro-town manner. However, there are 4 players in this game that are not confirmed. You are one of them. Process of elimination says we have this:

smargaret is a claimed VT
I am a claimed VT
You are essentially a claimed JoaT
Antihero is unclaimed
Sathoris is a 1-shot bulletproof who might have other abilities
Parama is an essentially claimed inventor who has an action confirmed for N2
Maemuki is a claimed doc

From this information we know that only Antihero or Sathoris could be our cop-giver. The cop-giver is confirmed town. If it is Sathoris, then we're left with you, me, smargaret, and Antihero as non-confirmed. I'm today's lynch, so we go into tomorrow with you, Antihero, and smargaret, where two of you MUST be scum (or, assuming I'm scum, one of you, with an available mislynch still).

If the cop giver is Antihero, we're left with you, me, and smargaret as unconfirmed. I'm today's lynch still, and we enter tomorrow with two unconfirmed, and 2 scum, meaning you and smargaret MUST be scum together (or, assuming I'm scum, we're left with two unconfirmed, one scum left, and an available mislynch). Either way, if Antihero is the cop-giver, it's a town win.

My overreaction to a perceived threat to an assured town win states nothing about my alignment except that I don't want to be ignored. I've already accepted that I'm not living through today. I'd just REALLY like to get the auto-win set up before I die, so that people don't just decide to IGNORE ME once I'm dead. Considering that the site meta when I left was "oh, that person is dead so there must be no reason at all to remember anything they said while alive" I feel that I'm justified here.

[Kairyuu]

Oh, and "facts and logic" is how I

do

play later in the game. I believe what you meant to say was "reasoning and reads." I do still use those, but I stop when I feel I can start basing my cases on unquestionable facts.

[Kairyuu]

Maemuki is TECHNICALLY not confirmed yet. I investigated her and received an innocent result. Until I die, she and I could be scum together. Once I flip though, she's conf-town by my investigation.

[Kairyuu]

N1 was Parama with an innocent on Sathoris.
N2 was Starbuck blocked on Mae.
N3 was me with an innocent on Mae.

That's everything on investigations.

[Kairyuu]

And there we go. Broken game.

[Kairyuu]

Shall I?

[Kairyuu]

And that's a lynch.

I was town. smargaret and Reck are conf-scum.

[Kairyuu]

That's the only thing that doesn't make any sense to me. Lynch smargaret first. It's possible, though highly unlikely, that there's only one scum left.

[Kairyuu]

@Antihero:You could have made this a helluva lot easier on yourself if you'd looked at a few things. Technically speaking, the game was not broken 100% at the time of my death. Parama could TECHNICALLY have been scum. However, a few things happened that should have made the final day a breeze for you.

1. Sathoris died. Since he was town, he probably wasn't lying about ardent defender. This means that it was used up earlier in the game. The only Nights with missing kills were N2 when I shot Bub and Reck claimed to have dodged a kill and N3 when Reck claimed to have shot at me and gotten blocked. Based on this, Reck was 100% confirmed to have been caught in a lie, and thus 100% confirmed scum.

2. You got a track power. Unless you wanted to assume that the last remaining scum was able to gift you a power and kill on the same Night, Parama couldn't be scum. In addition, based on the (faulty) information you had at the time, it still worked, because the only way Parama could be scum and you could be blocked is if Parama was able to use THREE actions in one Night, whereas Reck would only have to block and kill.

2 isn't a complete clear, but 1 is.

@Starbuck: Should have listened to you about smarg earlier. Didn't matter in the end because I broke the game, but I still deserve an "I told you so" from you for trusting her over you.

smarg and Reck played a great game for scum. The ender kill and the Enigma implosion really hurt their chances though. Either of those things not happening when they did and this may have been a very different endgame.

[Kairyuu]

There was a deadtopic and I wasn't invited?

/sadface

[Kairyuu]

@Inhim: Not going to pre-/in outright, but I'd much appreciate it if you'd let me know when the SM game hits signups.