TT; Book 1: Bible Verse Mafia - Game over!

[Cadmium]

Vote count:

8 Flying Dutchman (Commodore Amazing, inHimshallibe, PeaceBringer, Fritzler, PookyTheMagicalBear, armlx, Coron, Dragon Phoenix)

3 VisMaior (VitaminR, mith, Flying Dutchman)
1 RoadBird (EnderX)
2 armlx (Fuldu, Kerplunk)
1 LyingBrian (VisMaior)

not voting (4): Iammars, LyingBrian, RoadBird, Thoth

10 to lynch.

[LyingBrian]

so are you not claiming, Flying Dutchman?

[Fuldu]

VisMaior seems suspicious enough to me. A 'hider' wouldn't be such a bad lynch now, would it?

In general, I think a hider would be a fairly bad lynch. In the long run, it becomes a combination of a reasonably unnightkillable role with limited investigative power (since a hider who hides with scum is usually killed). Assuming I was equally suspicious of the two players, I'd probably be slightly more inclined to lynch someone who claimed roleblocker over someone who claimed hider on Day One. As the game progresses, this would probably shift, since it's easier to prove roles like RB than hider.

But in a game where a) VisMaior isn't sure whether he's a hider or a doc or possibly some other protective variant, and b) I suspect there are probably other players who aren't totally sure what role they are, I don't know that that logic applies. Certainly any possibility that VisMaior is a doctor makes me even less inclined to lynch him. But with the degree of uncertainty that exists in night actions in this game, a possible hider is going to be less useful, since any conclusions that are drawn are going to be conditional. In other words, VisMaior doesn't

know

an innocent (whoever he targeted last night) the way he would if his role read:

"Hider - Every night you may hide with the player of your choice. If you select a pro-town player, you will be protected from harm by hiding in their house. If

they

are targeted for a kill, you will be killed, as well. If you target an anti-town player, you will be killed."

...which is my generic notion of the hider role PM. And the problem is that a) we don't know for sure whether either or both of the conditionals apply in this instance and b) we don't know for sure that he's a hider. If either the second conditional (target scum=dead) doesn't apply or VisMaior's actually a doc, then the person he targeted last night need not be innocent.

So, I guess the conclusion I'm drawing after all that is that VisMaior is a bad lynch (because hider isn't a great lynch, and doctor would be even worse), but that if he is a hider, he probably isn't as useful in this game as he would be in others.

[LyingBrian]

i don't think we have 2 hiders in the game....

the silent speaker was given the reference Job 14:13 upon his death, which i would attribute more to a hider than Psalm 32:7, the reference VisMaior is claiming...

Job 14:13 - "you would hide me...and conceal me"
Psalm 32:7 - "you will protect me"

maybe the key is in the verb?!?... just a thought...

[Fuldu]

i don't think we have 2 hiders in the game....

the silent speaker was given the reference Job 14:13 upon his death, which i would attribute more to a hider than Psalm 32:7, the reference VisMaior is claiming...

Job 14:13 - "you would hide me...and conceal me"
Psalm 32:7 - "you will protect me"

maybe the key is in the verb?!?... just a thought...

Those are some impressive examples of selective quoting. And of The Bible, no less. For shame. The full passages are:

Job 14:13 - If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!

Psalm 32:7 - You are my hiding place; you will protect me from trouble and surround me with songs of deliverance. Selah

The first one might be a hider, but the notion of hiding in the grave hardly seems like a safe rationale for drawing that conclusion. In originally reading this I had interpreted tss's role as a likely candidate for vanilla townie, since that passage reads to me like a description of cannon fodder. Also, I dismissed hider as a likely role because he was the only death last night. It's not unheard of for scum to miss their kill(s) Night One and for the only death to be a hider who mishid, but it's got to be pretty unusual.

The second one has the disadvantage of just being what VisMaior has told us his verse is (as opposed to a verse mod-confirmed by death), but it seems much more emphatically a hider/doctor role than tss's verse.

Between casting doubts on Vismaior's innocence with poorly justified and misleading arguments and doing it with a "Just something to think about, but I'm not going to vote" attitude, I'll move my vote.

unvote: armlx; vote: LyingBrian

[RoadBird]

Vote: Flying Dutchman

Since neither makes any sense in this setting.

Since you brought it up again:

What is the setting? Are you trying to tell us that there are no normal roles because we have a bible verse iso a name.

i don't think we have 2 hiders in the game....

Besides the extremely bad quoting you are implying that God....euh...Mod will not tell us whether someone had a particular role. What do you base that spooky thought on?

[Thoth]

I think the Psalm 32:7 is much more likely to be a doctor than a hider. The way it's phrased (using 'you') makes it sound to me that VisMaior is the one hiding/protecting someone else. Not hiding himself. (Assuming his roleclaim is true of course).

After the last page of posts I'm now in dubio between LyingBrian and RoadBird. I really dislike LB urging for a claim after FD made defense without evaluating that defense.

I dislike Roadbird putting up the 9th vote for what looks like a complete nonreason even more though.

Vote: RoadBird

Just replying below, not a reason for my vote:

Besides the extremely bad quoting you are implying that God....euh...Mod will not tell us whether someone had a particular role. What do you base that spooky thought on?

Upon death, only the verse number of the deceased players will be given. However, different colouring of the verse numbers will reveal alignment.

[VitaminR]

I think I'm going to switch to RoadBird. That 9th vote really struck me as scummy.

Unvote: VisMaior

Vote: RoadBird

[Flying Dutchman]

Vote: Flying Dutchman

Since neither makes any sense in this setting.

Since you brought it up again:

What is the setting? Are you trying to tell us that there are no normal roles because we have a bible verse iso a name.

Stop partial quoting, please!

Are we thinking "Cowardly Reporter" or "Commuter"? Since neither makes any sense in this setting.

Since in the time the Bible stories happen (Before 100 AC, roughly) there are no reporters and no commuters in the normal sense I considered those out-of-setting. What's so weird about that?!

And NO, LyingBrian, I'm not going to claim. I think I know what my role is, but I'm not throwing it out in the open on day 1.

(And can someone PLEASE unvote me?! I hate being 1 away from a lynch... Just 1 slip of a finger and I'm gone because of somethign silly...)

[LyingBrian]

@Fuldu, RoadBird

you misinterpreted my post (somehow that's ironical)... i meant that i thought the silent speaker was a hider & VisMaior was a doctor... that wouldn't be unusual in a game this size, would it? the reason i partial quoted the verses was a) b/c i figured anybody could look up the full verse, b) i was trying to emphasize the verbs...

@Flying Dutchman

if you won't claim w/ 9 votes, then why shouldn't we lynch you? my vote stays...

Besides the extremely bad quoting you are implying that God....euh...Mod will not tell us whether someone had a particular role. What do you base that spooky thought on?

i'm not sure i understand this question fully... if you're asking why i think Cadmium will not reveal the roles, the answer is b/c he said he wouldn't

Upon death, only the verse number of the deceased players will be given.

[Cadmium]

Vote count:

9 Flying Dutchman (Commodore Amazing, inHimshallibe, PeaceBringer, Fritzler, PookyTheMagicalBear, armlx, Coron, Dragon Phoenix, RoadBird)

2 VisMaior (mith, Flying Dutchman)
3 RoadBird (EnderX, Thoth, VitaminR)
1 armlx (Kerplunk)
2 LyingBrian (VisMaior, Fuldu)

not voting (2): Iammars, LyingBrian

10 to lynch.

One month of discussion is more than enough for a game day, so here's a

deadline:

19 Jan 2006 10:00 am MST

[Fuldu]

you misinterpreted my post (somehow that's ironical)... i meant that i thought the silent speaker was a hider & VisMaior was a doctor... that wouldn't be unusual in a game this size, would it? the reason i partial quoted the verses was a) b/c i figured anybody could look up the full verse, b) i was trying to emphasize the verbs...

Which is the backtrack I had expected to hear, but it's still not consistent with the fact that tss died. Nor is it consistent with the fact that you didn't use the word "doctor" anywhere in the post, which was why I went ahead with my accusation when that possibility occurred to me. Your post looked then, and still looks, like what I said it did. The fact that it was framed in a way that allows for an alternative explanation doesn't make it any less scummy seeming.

[LyingBrian]

Which is the backtrack I had expected to hear, but it's still not consistent with the fact that tss died. Nor is it consistent with the fact that you didn't use the word "doctor" anywhere in the post, which was why I went ahead with my accusation when that possibility occurred to me. Your post looked then, and still looks, like what I said it did. The fact that it was framed in a way that allows for an alternative explanation doesn't make it any less scummy seeming.

are YOU trying to shift suspicion on whoever shows a little weakness?!? true, i should've "framed" the post better, but my vote was on Flying Dutchman at the time... i think you would have more of a case against me if i had FOS'd or even voted VisMaior... as soon as VisMaior claimed i unvoted... i was just trying to give some insight...

FOS: Fuldu

[LyingBrian]

bump

[RoadBird]

Stop partial quoting, please!

You are right. I'm sorry.

Are we thinking "Cowardly Reporter" or "Commuter"? Since neither makes any sense in this setting.

Since in the time the Bible stories happen (Before 100 AC, roughly) there are no reporters and no commuters in the normal sense I considered those out-of-setting. What's so weird about that?!

I completely agree with you here. A Cowardly Reporter or Commuter would be completely out-of-setting. But you know as well as the rest of us that we only have a bible verse and do not have a role. I thought that was the reason why you typed "Commuter" instead of just Commuter. So what's so weird about that? You suggesting we have roles with names. I'll stick with my vote.

i'm not sure i understand this question fully... if you're asking why i think Cadmium will not reveal the roles, the answer is b/c he said he wouldn't

Hm. I completely missed that for some reason. My bad.

[VisMaior]

I really wish I heard a claim.

[Flying Dutchman]

And I really wish someone would unvote, but for now it appears we're getting neither.

[mith]

Unvote

because of the deadline.

I am suspicious enough of FD to cast the final vote in a couple days (entirely because of CA's persistence), but shame on you all for this claim stuff. Has anyone stopped to think how easy it would be to make up a claim in this game? Has anyone stopped to think how risky it is to give the scum lots of information to work with? Maybe everyone is genuinely suspicious of FD and was ready to lynch him regardless of what he claimed, but that does not appear to be the case at all.

To answer LyingBrian's question, I try to catch scum. It's as simple as that. I vote for who I think is most suspicious (or close to it, if my hand is forced by a deadline). I don't screw around with claims, because in a well designed game (and knowing Cadmium, this is one) it is harmful for the town. There are good reasons to claim; day 1 bandwagons are not one of them. There are 10 pages here to analyze, more than enough to find

something

suspicious. Random bandwagons, particularly to force claims, are a waste of time and entirely against the point of the game (and don't get us through the day any faster, if everyone plays along and claims, as the town goes through several players before settling on someone that they can "afford" to lynch).

[/rant] for now. I'm tired. Maybe more later.

[LyingBrian]

@RoadBird, Flying Dutchman

how would the Mafia fit into the flavour of the Old Testament?.. (i'm assuming OT for now, b/c we haven't seen any NT verses) if this were NT, i would say maybe the Pharisees, but i can't think of 1 group that would cover BOTH Job & Psalms (Job's friends & Philistines, individually, respectively)... i think it might be a fallacy to think this game is designed to fit the flavour of the game... i think Cadmium just used Bible verses to describe the roles...

@mith

thank-you for that explanation... it is extremely helpful & informative...

[RoadBird]

Actually there is one verse in the bible that speaks of an italian family. A sicilian family I believe. Don't know where it was.

I still see no reason to unvote FD.

[inHimshallibe]

I agree with the thinking that even though the Bible is indeed an old Book, that the roles are basically "modern."

[Thoth]

I would expect that scum has a verse like Revelation 13:18.

[Commodore Amazing]

Just so everyone knows, I'm not voting for Dutchman because of an investigation, I just think he's really scummy, and he hasn't done anything since I started pretending I had a guilty investigation on him to convince me otherwise.

[inHimshallibe]

Just so everyone knows, I'm not voting for Dutchman because of an investigation, I just think he's really scummy, and he hasn't done anything since I started pretending I had a guilty investigation on him to convince me otherwise.

Agreed. Understood.

[mith]

In that case, I will not be voting for FD. I was suspicious of him earlier, as I mentioned, but since then he has done very little that bothers me. The case agaisnt him as presented so far is very weak, and I would be surprised if more than a few people are voting him because of it, rather than because of CA going after him the way he did.

Vote: Roadbird

. VisMaior is not going to be lynched today, even though I am still quite suspicious of him. I'll wait on LyingBrian as well, as it may be a generational clash more than anything. Roadbird is therefore the best alternative to FD at deadline. I hope FD is scum, since it seems likely he will be lynched anyway, but I'm just not seeing it.