There Will Be Bloodshed (Game Over)

[Calcifer]

I'll let Nacho handle the RVS. My RVS antics are...less than appreciated.

In the mean time, I'll be meta'ing all of you to get a general idea of how you people play as scum and as town, just to get a feel for you as a player: what's normal from you, what's normally town for you, what's normally scummy for you, etc. And I'm analyzing the votes right now. For your sanities, I better not post the conclusions.

-Mastin half.

[Calcifer]

Pine: Quick note to you, as I love teaching:

Spoiler: Ask DLG and my other half--I like doing this a lot

Those skills you honed? They're not worthless in this medium--just warped; the trick is figuring out how to find them.
Body language? Replaced by wording. Certain things are worded in a town-way, others in a scum-way.
Tone? Still there--I, for example, am pretty good generally at reading people's emotions through posts. If you see a reaction which looks faked, guess what? You've found scum.
Asking questions?
Arguably one of the most important parts of the game.

And, apparently, I'll quite enjoy playing with you. (Similar styles and all that.)

Oh, and I take back what I said before. I'm not going to post the reasons (they're quite insane), but I'll give you my conclusions.

{C-Worl, Cookie, Friend, winger} contains at least one--probably two--scum.

Empking is town.
AGar is town.
ConfidAnon is leaning-town.
Parama is probably town.
DLG is town.
Pine is neutral. I want him to be town, because if he is, then awesomeness will follow.

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

VOTE: ConfidAnon
For killing me in NY 118.

Vote: evilpacman18

He's clearly evil. It's in his name.

Oh man. I've never heard that one before.

Is that all you two have to say?!?

[Calcifer]

Moving Pine to my suspicion list for the moment after DLG's post, combined with something else. Near the bottom of the suspicion list, though.

Calcifer, explain each of those reads in detail, because right now I'm really liking my vote as more than RVS.

Hint: it's in the votes. See if you can figure it out yourself.

I'm fully capable of explaining the reads in detail, but feel it'd be anti-town to do so at this moment.

[Calcifer]

Personally, I'm chalking it up to the second quote, for now.

Nah. This is actually a far more productive tactic in the RVS than normal. If you ever get a chance to play with Haylen...well--assuming she still does it--her preferred RVS tactic outside of Newbie Games, she got from me.

Spoiler: Ramble to Pine

Bring them under your wing, gain an ally, give them genuinely good advice, and subconsciously, they'll never suspect you.

I do think of this when I'm scum, but I do it regardless of alignment. If you see a player you can help, then help 'em. As scum, I have the side-thought, "...and then they'll help you, too, later. ". But it really is a side-thought. DLG and my other half were in my first Newbie Game since my return to the site--and they know better than anyone else how I teach far better than I actually play. (Well, play as scum. It seems like I play better as town than I do to teach. ) The advice is advice which I find helpful, so I give it. My alignment has no influence on the advice I'd give.

Same principle applies here; I'm not going to let anyone manipulate my strategy or vote, even subliminally.

Fair warning--I've tried this before; it doesn't work. In fact, when I tried to make sure nobody would manipulate my strategy or vote, it had the OPPOSITE effect, and I was completely and totally fooled, manipulated masterfully. In my effort to consciously try and avoid manipulation, my paranoia ended up making me extremely vulnerable to manipulation. It might end up differently for you, but I doubt it. I've seen others try this, too, and they were manipulated.

No matter what, you'll always be manipulated by SOMEONE. But it seems like in the effort required to try and prevent this, you ironically end up amplifying it. I don't know why. If I delved into the subject, I'm sure I could figure it out. It's just been something I've observed to be true in my time. I hope it works for you better than it worked for me, or those I observed taking a similar route.

But thanks for the thought, if you are Town.

I'd prefer you thank me for the thought regardless of my alignment. Like I mentioned, I take pride in my capability to teach, even if I'm not the best of all players. But, eh, I'm rambling, so I'll stop myself.

Pine's been moved off the suspicion list; I find that reply more than adequate. See if you can get into the town, half, Pine, when you post your thoughts. Will wait for them eagerly.

[Calcifer]

Yes. For me at least. I don't believe in reading into RVS votes as much as you.

We (well, Nacho--I helped! ) caught you last game from them, did we not?

[Calcifer]

Yes. For me at least. I don't believe in reading into RVS votes as much as you.

We (well, Nacho--I helped! ) caught you last game from them, did we not?

I would have made the same opening post as town but I panicked when you took it the way you did and screwed up on DH's question.

And that still counted, didn't it? Opening post, sure, same as town. Immediately after that, not so much.

P.P.S. If that was a short wall from Pine, I say we report him to the moderator, Mastin is running two accounts.

The thought had crossed my mind that Pine is eerily similar to myself. One of the reasons I want to warn him, too. The closer they are to me, the more warning I have to give to them to avert my path.

GreyICE, meta'ing is not an all-powerful tool. I would not use it to determine instantly if someone is town or scum. It is a general "get a feel for players"-type thing. I might meta people later-on in more detail, but early-game meta is just to get a general feeling for players' styles, not an indicator of alignment.

[Calcifer]

Let's see where this gets us.

Vote: GreyICE

.

[Calcifer]

I missed my RVS. Oh well.

Pine, this post seems to me to be completely and totally useless. It's apologizing for a style of play your haven't even developed yet, and the only tangible advantage to it is not having people questioning your playstyle.

Parama, never ever ever ever ask Mastin to explain his reads in detail . Ever. Your paranoia has a musty town smell to it, though. However, don't bother. It's not like you'll catch me anyways.

No need for a random vote when things are picking up already.

Glad you recognize this. Now can you stop being useless and put a real vote down?

I would have made the same opening post as town but I panicked when you took it the way you did and screwed up on DH's question.

When people say things like this, it always interests me. How would you know that you would make the same opening post as town?

I don't like this post.

It smells funny.

Sorry Mastin, but I'm sure you'll approve of this one.

Unvote, Vote: Cookie of Death

The first scum of the day and it smells so good. Smells like hypocrites and cinnamon, wouldn't you agree?

[Calcifer]

vote: GreyIce

D1 suggestions of no lynch makes me want to hurt myself plus he admitted to only doing it because it's consistent with his town meta. Worrying about meta consistency = scum.

Do you really think he was serious?

Oh my god, thank you.

Grey voting NL is a nulltell, btw.

~Pie

Agree with this by the way. I don't think pacman's vote is good at all.

I don't think YOUR vote is good at all.
But anyways, bad in a scummy way? Or bad a in a poor play way?

[Calcifer]

Not exact, but ROUGHLY ordered most to least.
TOWN:
Empking
AGar
DLG
Parama
Pine
ConfidAnon

NEUTRAL: GreyICE (leaning scum)

SCUM:
Cookie,
Friend,
C-Worl,
winger

And there you have it. The vote for Cookie is a good one.

[Calcifer]

I'm guessing Mastin is one of the people playing the Calcifer account? Anyway, I don't care if Mastin has a habit of not explaining his reads, he needs to explain them. And I definitely don't like Calcifer's vote on Cookie at this stage in the game. Granted, I'm not a fan of Cookie's open dissent with Jerbs' vote on Pine, but I don't think a vote followed by a bold declaration of scum is appropriate. That being said, I'm getting a vague town vibe from the Calcifer slot.

No, Mastin is an overly verbose writer, and his problem is that he explains things TOO much. It's not worth breaking your eyes over early game reads, trust me.

Additionally: there are too many players who haven't posted enough/at all to be declaring that someone is decidedly scum yet.

This is where we differ in playstyle. I get strong scum reads pretty damn early, so I see no reason to withhold them.

The lack of an explanation actually isn't the worst part of the post. The fact that it's on a townish target and it comes at a time when there's a lot of annoying feelings eminating from Pine is the worst part. Also, unless Jerbs is trying out a new playstyle, I don't remember him being somebody who usually flippantly states that someone is scum and slaps down a vote, but I'm willing to write this point off.

So... most of your point is meta, then?

[Calcifer]

Hi, all. Just a warning--I'm going to be letting Nacho do a lot of the posting for a while, while I try to sort something out in the game. Trust me; it'll be worth it.
The problem I'm having is an issue that Nacho and I had to a limited extent last game, though it wasn't a huge issue. Parama and Empking might be able to guess what it is, but I'd prefer not to say. Anyway, reading the game, gathering and re-analyzing my notes, etc. (Meta'll have to wait.)
-Mastin

[Calcifer]

Nah. I'm in the PROCESS of writing a Wall.

You'll preferably not see it and only get the results. Needless to say, I've just done a quick skim to get caught up; part of what I'm doing will be going into more detail about every single player here, to help sort things out.

(Also, cool Hydra name. )
Anyway, *logs out and begins his long work*
This'll take a while.

[Calcifer]

I just had the sudden realization that Pine is confirmed town--
Everyone needs to get off of Pine,

NOW

.

Just...trust me. My scum reads aren't always the most reliable.

But this? This is my strongest town read I can remember--and those are never wrong. Pine is town. Period, end of discussion. Get. Off.

[Calcifer]

Doesn't matter. We're the same player.

[Calcifer]

Vote: Pine

diddin, are you not reading the game, or is this a scumclaim?

[Calcifer]

Mod:

Votecount, please. I need to know if anyone's still on Pine so I can lynch them.

[Calcifer]

Unvote, Vote: DLG,
FOS: TwoHeadedBoy

.

[Calcifer]

Hi all,
Please unvote ConfidAnon, C-Worl, Pine, and silverbullet999; they're all town.
Sincerely,
Calcifer.

[Calcifer]

SCUM
Antihero (Previously Cookie_Of_Death)
DLG
Friend
[winger]
TwoHeadedBoy (InflatablePie+Fugitive)

CONFIRMED TOWN:
Pine

TOWN:
Parama
Empking
diddin
AGar
ConfidAnon (Yes. He is.)
Jerbs
Wraith
GreyICE
nhammen
C-worl
evilpacman18
silverbullet999

We got this game. Let's lynch these scumbags. Doesn't matter what the order is.

[Calcifer]

You people never learn, do you?

Pine is no gut read. There's not a chance he's scum, period, end of discussion. I will push this and push it hard. Don't attempt to sway me away from this. It aint happening. Pine is town; live with it or replace out.

Unvote, Vote: Friend

. Not a chance the guy who's been on every single potential wagon is town. Seriously. Look at his voting record. He's ultra-opportunistic scum.

[Calcifer]

Seriously, people. Pine's town, Friend's scum. Don't make me wall to prove something which is so incredibly obvious that Friend deserves double his current votes at minimum.
Grey's town, too. Painfully obvious town.

At this point all I can really tell is that you're basically switching you "reads" in order to derail any and all wagons.

I am derailing all the wagons on pro-town players. If you didn't notice, my lynch vote is currently on Friend, and for good reason.

Everyone on my list has their reason for being there.

Explanation?

I expanded my reads to everyone instead of just a select few.

Calcifer, you need to at least give a brief summary of why you put people where you did on the list.

That would be a wall too long for my tastes. Even a summary would be too long. I have reasons for everyone on that list.

Not Voting: Wraith, Jerbs, evilpacman18
C-worl (3): [winger], Pine, Empking
Pine (2): TwoHeadedBoy, DLG
Jerbs: Antihero
Wraith: ConfidAnon
ConfidAnon (2): nhammen, Parama
silverbullet999(2) : AGar, Friend

All of these wagons need to die. Those unvoting need to vote someone else. C-Worl is newbtown. Pine is confirmed town. Jerbs and Wraith are both weak-town but still town. ConfidAnon and silverbullet are both town.

[Calcifer]

Don't Delay!

Vote: Friend

Today!

[Calcifer]

My reasoning might be insane, but my conclusions are not.

[Calcifer]

So guys, which is better - trying to defend myself and getting shot down mercilessly by the asshole-ish nature of Calcifer, or simply doing nothing and letting myself get lynched anyways? Either way I feel like my lynching is gonna be a hell of an "I-told-you-so" moment for town and might sway this game. I'm totally fine with getting lynched.

So, this is more evidence Friend is scum.

The correct town answer is "scumhunt". Not defend yourself, not lurk your way out of getting lynched.

[Calcifer]

Friend is scum.

Then vote for him--a wagon supported by many--over ConfidAnon, a wagon supported by only a few at this moment. (Like Friend.)

[Calcifer]

I kind of want you guys to lynch me to prove that Calcifer is not really all that smart or good or all-knowing. Same with Ice. This game has already gone to shit.

If we mislynch you, it won't "prove" anything about out skill level or our intelligence. You've been playing terribly. So, either start fighting the lynch and NOT playing terribly, or self-vote so we don't have to drag this out unnecessarily.

diddin's vote on me is scummy, IMO. He showed up, didn't say much about the main wagons, and put a relatively safe, unquestioned vote on me. It'd be quite easy for him to leave it there the rest of the day and avoid commenting on any of the main wagons.

Could you explain how you're an easy vote? Or a safe vote? Or why a vote on you would be unquestioned?

Because being wagoned for something I don't understand is frustrating as all hell, especially when there's so many more scummy people around me.

Pause.

[Calcifer]

You never explain anything. All of your votes seem completely random, you don't explain why your suspicions are dropped, you don't give any hint that you're going to change votes. The only time you comment on big wagons when you're voting on them, otherwise they are ignored. When you are pressured, you self destruct, call the people pushing you assholes, and go "maybe my death will help the town" and resign. You SAY there's a lot of scummy people around them, but you never address them. I KNOW your a terse player, and that's good! We need a lot more concise players running around. But you can't give us absolutely nothing, and then fold like a piece of paper the moment you're pressured a tiny bit.

[Calcifer]

Oh! Calc agrees with me about Cookie. I feel good about myself now. The question here though, Calc, being a bit hypocritical yourself, is did YOU really think Cookie was serious. And if so, why?

I figured he was using crappy voting reasons like that in order to point out Jerb's crappy reasons. It felt like a serious vote because it points out scumminess somewhere else, and it was made when "things were picking up".

So guys, which is better - trying to defend myself and getting shot down mercilessly by the asshole-ish nature of Calcifer, or simply doing nothing and letting myself get lynched anyways? Either way I feel like my lynching is gonna be a hell of an "I-told-you-so" moment for town and might sway this game. I'm totally fine with getting lynched.

So you think that the town's going to unify to avenge you if you go down with nothing more than "lol Calc is a jerk"?

Yeah, but when I try to scumhunt you criticize my style. What's the point?

Catching scum?

@Calcifer 173: Are you seeing the same thing I am?

No

[Calcifer]

My vote on Parama isn't sudden, I've been considering it for days.

Perhaps someone can enlighten me regarding the merits of continuing to pile onto the Friend wagon? We don't want a speedlynch, and forcing him to roleclaim won't likely help. If he's a town PR, he'll get killed by the scum on N1. If he

claims

a PR, most people will be dissuaded from following through, which will get him off the hook if scum. So...why build the wagon this big nine days out from deadline?

Preview edit @Icey: both votes on C-Worl have since been unvoted, though I'm not convinced of his innocence and I'm not taking your word for it sans explanation.

YOU'VE been considering it for days, but how are WE supposed to know that?

Well, I'm not involved in any of the arguments, and I'd rather move on to investigating others. I'll grant that Friend is the scummiest at this point, but there's plenty of other things to do. Ignoring that and speed-lynching just gives scum a free pass. To do what you're suggesting they'd have to lurk

successfully

Seriously, Calcifer, this guy is town?

Yup.

diddin : [winger]

Would actually bet some money this is a distancing from two bad players.

Kindly fuck off.

unvote, Vote: [winger]

I was reaction testing Parama to see if he's OMGUS me for voting him. Apparently not.

Wait one second.
This deserves its own post.

[Calcifer]

UNVOTE: VOTE: DIDDIN

[Calcifer]

You can't attack people for not explaining

anything

and then put down

a

vote with no explanation. Hypocrisy.

Relevant parts are bolded for your viewing pleasure.
There's one hell of a difference between never explaining shit and not explaining something. You dig?

You listed me as town. At a point in the game in which I had made only one post, which contained a random vote and an explanation of why I would be gone for 2.5 days. Where exactly did this town read come from?

There was no null section, so you got a free pass based on benefit of the doubt.

[Calcifer]

I like pine and winger as my main suspects, with c-worl and GreyICE as minor suspects. I definitely agree that pine is trying too hard to be town. All of his massive walls seem like waffling to me. He's also buddying up to Mastin, a more experienced player, like no tomorrow.

...I definately didn't notice that.

Looks like Pine's not an acceptable lynch for today. As such, I will

unvote, Vote: [winger]

This is scummy as hell because it shows that he's just reading to dig up dirt on people. I mean, how the hell could he notice Pine buddying up to us, but not accuse us of buddying to Pine? This was after we called him CONFIRMED TOWN. The rest of his first post supports this sentiment too; the post is essentially four suspects, with a quote and rebuke of a quote supporting each suspicion.

And after he votes, he has absolutely ZERO interest in following up that vote. He just comments on other shit until winger votes him.

BUT
HERE'S THE CLINCHER:

diddin : [winger]

Would actually bet some money this is a distancing from two bad players.

Kindly fuck off.

unvote, Vote: [winger]

I was reaction testing Parama to see if he's OMGUS me for voting him. Apparently not.

When accused of distancing from two bad players (this is after he called C-Worl idiot town), he overreacts like this and then backs down. This is pretty much the furthest thing from a town reaction possible.

[Calcifer]

I took offense to being called a bad player. It looked like IcyCupcake was just trying to smear me.

Why did you back down, then?
Is this all you have to say in defense?

Diddin's not a bad player, he's just naturally scummy, like me. So far his play seems similar to that in Simpsons Mafia, where we both believed the other was scum for a long time.

I don't seem to recall him backing down so easily in Simpsons. He also was a lot more lenient with his vote.
And now that I've pointed out the differences, can you point out the similarities?

Friend is the way to go day 1 people......

No, silver.

What's the Diddin case? There's a sudden wash of Diddin suspicion, and I'm not quite sure why.

I posted it last page. Do you really need a link?

(and yes, it's still a valid point even if it may be hypocritical)

And why is this?

[Calcifer]

The huge and long reasoning is mostly from Mastin, so I'll let him post those.
If there's any specific questions you'd like to direct at me, I'll be online for a little while, so.

[Calcifer]

What OMGUS? I don't know that you ever voted for me, and you certainly weren't just there. I'm voting for you because of the elaborate and well-established case against you. I just wanted to use the extra time granted to us to hunt your scumbuddies, like Parama. But sure, if you insist on falling on your sword sooner rather than later, fine.

OMGUS doesn't have to be based on votes, only, you know...

And silver, you can look through my posts. It's there. It'll be like a little game!!

Friend, the question silver's referring to is why you found those two lines of Wraith scummy. And I've looked through your posts, and you've never answered that question. Could you do so now?

[Calcifer]

What OMGUS? I don't know that you ever voted for me, and you certainly weren't just there. I'm voting for you because of the elaborate and well-established case against you. I just wanted to use the extra time granted to us to hunt your scumbuddies, like Parama. But sure, if you insist on falling on your sword sooner rather than later, fine.

OMGUS doesn't have to be based on votes, only, you know...

And silver, you can look through my posts. It's there. It'll be like a little game!!

Friend, the question silver's referring to is why you found those two lines of Wraith scummy. And I've looked through your posts, and you've never answered that question. Could you do so now?

My goodness. I don't knoe about you but I for one won't be giving Calcifer's reads a second thought after reading this travesty. In fact.

Unvote

Vote: Pine

Unvote

Vote: Pine

[Calcifer]

Unvote, Vote: Friend

[Calcifer]

So your entire case on us is that
1) We play like crackheads.
2) We don't give reasoning.

Is there an other significant points we're missing?

[Calcifer]

If Pine flips scum I'm up for a Calcifer lynch tomorrow.

And if he flips town, then all I get is nightkilled.
HOORAY WHAT AN AMAZING DEAL FOR ME.

Calcifer, you voted for Friend, twice, when your vote was already on him. Explanation please.

To make a point.

@Hiraki:
How does schizophrenic behavior denote scum from a hydra a opposed to town?
Pine is confirmed town to us because he has a playstyle similar to Mastin, and he triggered one of Mastin's town tells. He's 100% positive of the fact.

Diddin, can you doublevote whenever you want?

Vote: Jerbs

[Calcifer]

Parama, you know better than to associate with those swine.

Join the Jerbs wagon! We could have a glorious, all-town lynchwagon on scum!

Isn't that what we all dream of?

Romanus, I have a townParama read based off meta. That being said, he has a lot better chance of flipping scum than Pine does, so I'm willing to switch if the Jerbs wagon doesn't pan out.

[Calcifer]

<3 Parama

Diddin, do you think that I'm scum?

[Calcifer]

His looks considerably more intelligent.

Also, I think I liked Fugi better.

[Calcifer]

How does schizophrenic behavior denote scum from a hydra a opposed to town?
Pine is confirmed town to us because he has a playstyle similar to Mastin, and he triggered one of Mastin's town tells. He's 100% positive of the fact.

HEY HIRAKI

Pine, why aren't you voting Jerbs?
silver, why aren't you voting Jerbs?

[Calcifer]

^This is you painting someone as unreliable, scummy, or just insulting them.

I don't see an insult there.
When wagons lose their "awesomeness", or when a wagon becomes "bad", it means that the person making the statement is a little more unsure of the alignment of the wagoned. So, the only way that a wagon can go bad is through scumminess.

^This is too, and is also simply untrue.

I don't understand this.
Parama called Romanus scum while Romanus was voting Parama.

^This is misrepresentation

The equivalent of = as scummy as

^This is all of the above.

He manipulated the quote to show a point.
If he was genuinely misrepping, do you honestly think that he thought he could get away with making someone call themselves scummy?

[Calcifer]

@Calc: Jerbs looks somewhat scummy, but not so much as Parama. And not as much as some people are making him out to be. He's like fifth or sixth on my list. I also haven't said anything about C-Worl, and he's third on my list. What of it?

Well, a Parama vote is not a good place for your vote to be. You're only looking at his actions at the surface, as opposed to scum intent beneath them. No matter how you look at Jerbs's posting, it's just plain scummy.

[Calcifer]

I'm working on the post--it's not finished, yet. But just a warning:
DON'T SAY I DIDN'T WARN YOU THAT THIS WAS ENTIRELY UNNECESSARY AND THAT PINE IS CONFIRMED TOWN.

Speaking of which, food for thought:

Friend (7): silverbullet999, AGar,

Parama, Wraith

, Pine, C-worl, Iceycupcake

Pine (7) : Diddin (2), Empking,

Parama, Wraith

, Jerbs, Evilpacman18

AGar's confirmed town, obviously. Pine's town, too. C-worl is newb-town, Icey is obv-town. Silver I've got a town-read on. So, where are the scum? It really leaves only Wraith and Parama.
On Pine--Diddin's prob-town with the double-vote ability. Empking's prob-town, too. Evil's prob-town as well. Leaving Parama, Wraith, and Jerbs as scumspects. Note Wraith and Parama's voting pattern.

Now, if you excuse me, I've got a lot of work to do. Gotta do a complete reread of the game, while simultaneously working on the wall which proves Pine is town once and for all.

[Calcifer]

I'm still working on the wall. But a tl;dr of what the wall will be?

I'm so convinced Pine is town, that I swear,

if Pine is scum,

I will retire from Mafia

forever

under the name of Mastin--that's right; I'm so confident that if I am wrong,

I will NEVER make another post, not in a game, not even in MD, completely abandoning the site for an eternity

. I'm dead-serious.
Who here is that sure Pine is scum?
'Cause I'm that sure, THAT confident, that Pine is town. And will write the Wall to prove it, too.

[Calcifer]

You don't buy that I am willing to risk my entire reputation, my entire career, everything I have, on a town-read?

Well, news for you:
That's just who I am. I meant every word of it. Under the name Mastin, I became quite infamous, but there was one positive trait about me, Empking: I got solid town reads, locked onto them, and refused to let go. And the thing is?
I was right every time. You need only look at Mean Mod Mafia (run by Battle Mage), where I lynched myself rather than let BC--who I had a strong townread on--get lynched. And I was right. Heck, I would do that this game, too, if I weren't hydraing with Nacho, because I realize he might not be that amused I'm risking his life as well. So, if I can't risk my life, then I'll risk everything else.

Since my return, I've slowly been building up a slightly more positive reputation. I've done EXTENSIVE MD work, to the point where it's even in my signature. I've gotten on my way to slowly removing the infamy surrounding my name. I've been trying to redeem myself, slowly, to become a good player. But there's a long way to go, yet. I have yet to do so much in my quest to purge the negative aspects I'm known for.

Meaning, to do so, I need to play in more games. I need to continue my career if I want to be remembered positively instead of negatively.


But Pine? Pine overrides that. I'm willing to risk everything I've got left. Everything I am, on Pine being town. You've seen my MD work, right? How much time and effort I put into it? I was dead serious when I said that I'd never make another MD post. Heck, I'll one-up it and say I'll never even VISIT MD again if Pine is scum. I'm that convinced Pine is town. My reputation, my very future on this site--I'll bargain it all that Pine is town.

And me? I'm an honorable guy. Foolishly so. When I say it, when I swear it, I really do mean it and will follow it through.

Pine is town. If he isn't, then I do not deserve to ever play Mafia again, don't deserve to ever be on this site again.

-Mastin.

[Calcifer]

Holy shit, now

I

want to know what I did, so I can use it again if I ever play scum against you.

It only works once, you know.

Still working on that wall. But like I said, it really shouldn't be necessary.

[Calcifer]

But you won't release those town tells?

There's no way to summarize the town-tells. Needless to say, 95% of what Pine says could only come from town-Pine. The other 5% is still 100% town, though. Basically, it'd be easier for me to say what ISN'T a town-tell coming from Pine. Seriously, it'll take a huge amount of time for me to finish the wall and explain the reason, but it's something I'm working on. Just know that Pine is town, and that you

really

need to get off of him.

[Calcifer]

Not Voting: Antihero, silverbullet999, C-worl, nhammen, ConfidAnon,
Pine (7) : Diddin (2), Empking,

Parama

, Wraith, Jerbs, Evilpacman18, Twoheadedboy
Parama (0) :

Pine

,

Romanus

Calcifer : Hiraki
Jerbs (3) : Calcifer, Parama, Romanus
C-Worl (1) : Pine
EvilPacman18 (1) : Iceycupcake

Seriously. Pine's at L-2. Not cool, people.

[Calcifer]

To be fair, I'm not sold on Jerbscum, either (that sudden wagon is concerning), but if it came down to Jerbs and Pine...yeah.

[Calcifer]

Oh, and, just for reference:
Wraith's scum.

[Calcifer]

Wraith's scum by VCA.

Friend (7): silverbullet999, AGar, Parama, Wraith, Pine, C-worl, Iceycupcake
Friend (10): silverbullet999, AGar, Parama, Wraith, C-worl, Iceycupcake, Calcifer, nhammen, Twoheadedboy, Pine
Pine (7) : Diddin (2), Empking, Parama, Wraith, Jerbs, Evilpacman18
Pine (7) : Diddin (2), Empking,

Parama

, Wraith, Jerbs, Evilpacman18, Twoheadedboy

Note the common trend. On the first Friend wagon,
-Townread on silver.
-Pine's ultra-town.
-C-Worl is a newbtownread
-Icey's town.
-Nacho says Parama's town.
And that's 7/10 needed for a lynch. There HAS to be at least one scum on that lynch wagon, if not two.

The second Friend wagon (the lynch one) is the same. It needs 1-2 scum on it, minimum. The new names on there are Calcifer (obviously not), nhammen (townread), and Twoheadedboy.

In other words, the Friend wagon is mostly town-driven, but needs SOME scum on it. Which fits with Wraith.

On the Pine wagon:
-7/9 to lynch still needs one scum minimum.
-Diddin's almost certainly town for the double-vote.
-Empking's town.
-Evil's town.
-Nacho says Parama's town.

Leaving {Wraith, Jerbs} as suspects.
The second adds in Twoheadedboy and subtracts Parama.

But still, no matter how you look at it, Wraith's almost certainly scum. I'll do a quick Unofficial Votecount to see if this pattern holds true for the Jerbs wagon as well.

[Calcifer]

Not Voting: Antihero,

silverbullet999

, C-worl, nhammen,

ConfidAnon

,
Pine (4) :

Diddin (2)

,

Empking

, Wraith, Jerbs, Evilpacman18, Twoheadedboy
Calcifer (0) :

Hiraki

Jerbs (7) : Calcifer, Parama,

Romanus

, Hiraki, Diddin (2), ConfidAnon, Empking
C-Worl (1) : Pine
EvilPacman18 (1) : Iceycupcake

Wraith (1) : silverbullet999

silverbullet999 (1) : Romanus
Romanus (1) : silverbullet999

I think that's up to date.

[Calcifer]

Whoops, missed C-Worl.
Not Voting: Antihero,

C-worl

, nhammen,

ConfidAnon

,
Pine (4) : [a]Diddin (2), Empking[/s], Wraith, Jerbs, Evilpacman18, Twoheadedboy
Calcifer (0) : Hiraki
Jerbs (8) : Calcifer, Parama,

Romanus

, Hiraki, Diddin (2), ConfidAnon, Empking, C-Worl
C-Worl (1) : Pine
EvilPacman18 (1) : Iceycupcake

Wraith (1) : silverbullet999

silverbullet999 (1) : Romanus
Romanus (1) : silverbullet999

[Calcifer]

How is Evil town?

Last I checked, we both agreed on this. For multiple reasons. Lots of little stuff, mainly.

[Calcifer]

*We, as in, both heads of the hydra. Meaning Mastin+Nacho agree.

[Calcifer]

Vote: Wraith

.

[Calcifer]

*sigh*

It's so sad to see someone who is so town be so wrong.

[Calcifer]

Wraith wagon.

Is good too.

Can you vote on this one instead, then? Romanus is on the scumlist, sure, but [winger] did a few things which make me doubtful of Romanuscum. Wraith on the other hand...

Also, Evil's not a good wagon.

[Calcifer]

Romanus is failing. Badly.
I'm only questioning whether he's failtown or failscum.

Also:

In my circles, we have a tell called "OMG, the doctor's dead." It usually occurs right after the pronouncement of some town aligned role has been killed, and most especially a power town role. A way of buddying up with the town. "He can't be scum, look how concerned he is about <insert town role> dying."

How did Jerbs flip VT? Was that mistake on the mod's part? Le soupir.

So, you've got a slight Icey suspicion (total fail) and a silver suspicion (still fail), but don't mention Hiraki doing exactly the same thing?

Can I call the scumteam?
SCUM:
Antihero
Hiraki
Romanus
Wraith

At this point, that's probably least to most.

[Calcifer]

Have we gotten past the policy voting, yet? It looks like a lot of us have, but we're not quite to the point where everyone's opened their eyes and actually done scum hunting instead of policy-lynching.

Please don't lynch Evil. Nacho's supposed to explain to you why he's town.
And please don't lynch Pine. This goes beyond gut, goes beyond the strength of any read I've ever made before, that he's town. Not only that, but the Parama kill was blatantly-obviously an attempt to frame Pine, if you couldn't tell, and I know what Pine as scum would've done--killing Parama wasn't scum-Pine. The reason why is quite simple:
Pine-Scum would want to kill the person most pro-town. Parama had a serious wagon attempt on him--in fact, Pine was advocating that Parama was scum. Scum-Pine would

never

kill the person they were attempting to lynch.

This is by far not the only evidence I have, but I am working on the Pine Wall to prove he is town and give more than just a few weak reasons as to why Pine's town. But it's time-consuming due to how detailed it is, and when I say I'm making a wall, I'm going all-out and making a wall which'll conclusively prove Pine is town. It's simply incredibly time-consuming, which means patience will be required. It would be most inconvenient if you lynched him before then.

[Calcifer]

Wraith - 2 (Calcifer,

IceyCupcake

, Pine)
Pine - 1 (Empking)
Romanus - 1 (

IceyCupcake

, silverbullet999)
Calcifer - 1 (Wraith)
silverbullet999 - 1 (Romanus)

Votecount as of 35.

Wraith - 2 (Calcifer,

IceyCupcake

, Pine)
Pine - 3 (Empking, TwoHeadedBoy, C-Worl)
Romanus - 1 (silverbullet999)
Calcifer - 1 (Wraith)
silverbullet999 - 1 (Romanus)
TwoHeadedBoy - 1 (nhammen)

Votecount as of 36.

Wraith - 2 (Calcifer, Pine)
Pine - 5 (Empking, TwoHeadedBoy, C-Worl, Diddin x 2)
Romanus - 1 (silverbullet999)
Calcifer - 1 (Wraith)
silverbullet999 - 1 (Romanus)
TwoHeadedBoy - 1 (nhammen)

Votecount as of 37.

Wraith - 3 (Calcifer, Pine, ConfidAnon)
Pine - 3 (Empking, TwoHeadedBoy, C-Worl,

Diddin x 2

)
Romanus - 2 (silverbullet999, IceyCupcake)
Calcifer - 1 (Wraith)
silverbullet999 - 1 (Romanus)
TwoHeadedBoy - 1 (nhammen)
C-Worl - 2 (Diddin x 2)

Votecount as of 38.

Wraith - 3 (Calcifer, Pine, ConfidAnon)
Pine - 3 (Empking, TwoHeadedBoy,

C-Worl

)
Romanus - 2 (silverbullet999, IceyCupcake)
Calcifer - 1 (Wraith)
silverbullet999 - 1 (Romanus)
TwoHeadedBoy - 1 (nhammen)
C-Worl - 2 (Diddin x 2)

Votecount as of 39.

Wraith - 4 (Calcifer, Pine, ConfidAnon, evilpacman18)
Pine - 3 (Empking, TwoHeadedBoy)
Romanus - 1 (

silverbullet999

, IceyCupcake)
Calcifer - 1 (Wraith)
silverbullet999 - 0 (

Romanus

)
TwoHeadedBoy - 1 (nhammen)
C-Worl - 2 (Diddin x 2)
Evilpacman18 - 1 (silverbullet999)

Current Votecount.

8 to lynch. I'll tell you which wagons need to die, and give a brief reason as to why.

Evil:

He's still prob-town. It's

possible

he's scum, sure. But it's not probable. Nacho should elaborate on this.

C-Worl:

It's a newb-town/frustration wagon. C-worl's play is frustrating, sure, but it's town. C-worl's play is newbish, but we're not giving C-worl a newbie pass--we've actually read C-worl and what we saw was Newb-town, not newb-scum. Reading him, you'd find the same.

TwoHeadedBoy:

Worthless. TwoHeadedBoy is another case of a frustrated vote which needs to die. Is TwoHeadedBoy frustrating? Oh, heck yes. I'm hating Pie, myself. Is TwoHeadedBoy scum? No, I no longer believe so. (Mainly, since Fugi is far more rational.)

Pine:

There are so many reasons Pine is town, it's not even funny. I can't even select which are the most important, simply because there's just too many. This guy's a walking pile of town-tells. Some of the votes are serious, while others are from simple frustration.

Wagons which need a little more

:

Wraith:

I want a hardclaim. No softclaim junk. Seriously, what happened to the good ol' policy we used to have of running softclaims to L-1 and forcing them to hardclaim? I miss those days.

Romanus:

Pine made a case for Romanus being town, yeah, and [winger] had a few things which threw me into doubt, but I think that even if Romanus is town, he needs more pressure and another focus point other than silver. (That's assuming he is town, though--Romanus has a lot pointing to him being scum, too.)

[Calcifer]

Saved you the work of doing a votecount, though it's done in my style instead of yours.
(The strikethrough is to show what's changed from the last votecount. This is what it looks like without the strikes:
Wraith - 4 (Calcifer, Pine, ConfidAnon, evilpacman18)
Pine - 3 (Empking, TwoHeadedBoy)
Romanus - 1 (IceyCupcake)
Calcifer - 1 (Wraith)
TwoHeadedBoy - 1 (nhammen)
C-Worl - 2 (Diddin x 2)
Evilpacman18 - 1 (silverbullet999))

[Calcifer]

*EditBWOP: Pine only has two votes. (Why do I always mess up on these? >_< )
Your Reserved for Votecount post would have the votecount from 38:
Wraith - 3 (Calcifer, Pine, ConfidAnon)
Pine - 3 (Empking, TwoHeadedBoy, C-Worl)
Romanus - 2 (silverbullet999, IceyCupcake)
Calcifer - 1 (Wraith)
silverbullet999 - 1 (Romanus)
TwoHeadedBoy - 1 (nhammen)
C-Worl - 2 (Diddin x 2)

PREDIT:

Bah, Ninja'd by mod.

[Calcifer]

Get off of EMP and C-Worl. Focus on Wraith and force a hardclaim.

[Calcifer]

Unvote

.

I believe the Wraith claim, because it makes perfect sense to me.

...What

doesn't

make sense is how Wraith was the person who made most sense as being scum by VCA, and now he can't be. :/

Vote: Romanus

for now. (Nacho, you can decide differently if you want to.)

[Calcifer]

By VCA, I calculated this:

Jerbs (9):

Calcifer, Parama

,

Hiraki

,

Diddin (2)

,

ConfidAnon

, Empking, C-worl, TwoHeadedBoy

The bolded are my choice of scum. Italicized is my choice of the choice. This Jerbs wagon contains 1-2 scum in it, after all.

Pine (7) :

Diddin (2)

, Empking,

Parama, Wraith, Jerbs

, Evilpacman18

This Pine wagon ALSO needs 1-2 scum (else it was COMPLETELY town-driven--theoretically possible, but extremely improbable), but at this point, it really only can be Empking and/or Evil. :/

Friend (10): silverbullet999,

AGar, Parama, Wraith

, C-worl, Iceycupcake,

Calcifer

, nhammen, Twoheadedboy, Pine

1-3 scum. Of these choices, I currently have a strong town-read on Icey, and a semi-strong town read on Twoheadedboy.
That means it can be silver or nhammen, really. Unless Friend was seriously THAT town-driven (again, possible, but not probable), it's looking like one of those two at minimum is scum.

*controversial method of VCA removed for your sanity*
--This method left evilpacman18, Romanus/[winger], Pine, Empking, silverbullet999, and C-worl all as possible suspects.

*controversial method of VCA #2 removed for your sanity*
--And THIS one left one of {silver, nhammen} as scum, with 1-2 scum in {Romanus, C-worl, Antihero, Hiraki} and 1 scum in {Pine, ConfidAnon, Evil}.

So, scumteam: {

silver

, nhammen}, Evil, {

Hiraki

, ConfidAnon}, and Romanus. If there's a fifth, it'd likely be Antihero.

This is from VCA alone. When taken into account our reads, it leaves Hiraki and Romanus in extremely bad light (with Antihero also looking bad). We haven't discussed silver, nhammen, Evil, or ConfidAnon recently, though, so will need to do so. (I'd say ConfidAnon is town for now, though.)

[Calcifer]

Not Voting: Romanus,

C-worl

, Antihero,

Hiraki

Wraith (5): Calcifer,

Pine

, ConfidAnon, Evilpacman18, Hiraki, C-worl
Pine (2): Empking, TwoHeadedBoy
Romanus: IceyCupcake

Calcifer: Wraith

TwoHeadedBoy: nhammen
C-Worl (3): Diddin (2), Pine
Evilpacman18 (2): silverbullet999, Wraith

8 to lynch.


Not Voting: Romanus, Antihero, Hiraki
Wraith (2):

Calcifer

,

ConfidAnon

, Evilpacman18,

Hiraki

, C-worl
Pine (2): Empking, TwoHeadedBoy
Romanus (3): IceyCupcake, Calcifer, Wraith

TwoHeadedBoy: nhammen

C-Worl (0):

Diddin (2)

,

Pine

Evilpacman18 (4): silverbullet999,

Wraith

, Diddin (2), EPM
nhammen: Pine
Empking: ConfidAnon

8 to lynch.

Cleaned up, for current votecount:

Not Voting: Romanus, Antihero, Hiraki
Wraith (2): Evilpacman18, C-worl
Pine (2): Empking, TwoHeadedBoy
Romanus (3): IceyCupcake, Calcifer, Wraith
Evilpacman18 (4): silverbullet999, Diddin (2), EPM
nhammen: Pine
Empking: ConfidAnon

[Calcifer]

*Evilpacman is not voting himself. That's Nhammen as the fourth voter, I believe.

[Calcifer]

Unvote, Vote: EPM

.

LET'S DO THIS.

[Calcifer]

Wagons which need to die

:

Wraith (2):

Wraith's claim is pretty much the one claim I'd believe, coming from him. Had he claimed pretty much anything else, I'd be wanting him dead, but his claim makes him confirmed town.

Pine (2):

I'll admit--it's

possible

pine is scum. Possible, but not

probable

. I have townreads on both of you, and I think you two need to use your votes elsewhere, even if you DO still think Pine is scum--if he is, we can deal with him later; we have bigger scum to fry.

nhammen:

Worthless wagon. Admittedly, nhammen is a suspect, but not a severe one worthy of lynching. Your vote is best placed elsewhere.

Empking:

Looks like you made a typo! Please switch your "EMP" vote for an "EPM" vote.

Wagons which make me cry to not see more votes on:

Romanus (2):

Good Wagon.

Evilpacman18 (5):

...But this one's better. We only need three more!

[Calcifer]

For the record, there's far more than that tiny piece of VCA suggesting EPM is scum.

[Calcifer]

I'd like a claim before anyone hammers

Why bother? There's really only one claim I'd believe from EPM:

Mafia Goon.

[Calcifer]

Vote: evilpacman18

.
Hammer.

[Calcifer]

Calcifer,

Vanilla Townie

, was killed Night 3.

Bah, bah, black sheep,
Have you any life?

No, sir, no, sir, just three knives.
One for the good mod,
One for the mafiscum,
And One for the town;
Makes me sad I'm gone...

Bah

bah, black sheep,
Why do you frown?
Well, sir, well sir,
To say:

Go Town

...

[Calcifer]

Icey, your shitty play was too buried under everyone else's shitty play. And remember the reason you joined a hydra: it's not your fault!

Pie/Fugi going ridiculously active in neighborhood QT after we died was just plain mean.