Open 295 -- Island Paradise Mafia -- Game Over

[havingfitz]

Vote: }|{opa

for the unusual username.

[havingfitz]

I'm confoozled

Confuzled sounds like a word scum would use.

Vote: cjdrum.

[havingfitz]

OK...catching up. Here are my random thoughts as I read through.

-DRK for accusing Sundy on NK comment (TT did too??)
-cj for assuming Vig killed andrew. NK joy tell. Playfully defensive at RVS 's DRK reprimand.
-DRK pushing Sundy votes for NK comment. (bad)
-DRK overexagerrating animorph's "too early" for serious votes comment. (bad)
-DRK accusing anomorph of defending Sundy (bad)
-DRK...why is Sundy scummy if not for analyzing the nk when he commented on them?
-}|{opa Do not agree that andrew is necessarily a goon but do agree he was most likely killed by an sk.
-cj appears to be playing obtuse and is overly peppy.
-Posts 73 DRK tells people to not speculate on setup and then in the next post (post 74) he speculates on setup .
-Agree with }|{opa's post 75.
-DRK (who earlier argues the likelihood of a Vig killing N0) states he wouldn't expect a one-shot vig to shoot night 1.
-TT is deadon in post 92. }|{opa's statement that DRK is a GF and subsequent vote on someone with 2 posts who, other than the fact they have only made two posts, has done nothing suspicious.
-}|{opa pushing DRK as a good cop lynch. Why keep mentioning a cop?

***************************

Don't like giving town reads so I won't. I didn't have any suspicions towards }|{opa until his DRK GF post/Star vote. DRK seems to be overreacting IMO to a lot of people's comments and if it were not for the aforementioned }|{opa suspicion I would probably put my vote on him [DRK]. So I'll

FOS

DRK.
}|{opa however gets this: VOTE: }|{opa

Also...I have a gut suspicion towards cjdrum atm based on random thoughts listed above.

[havingfitz]

Oh, great. The lurcker-man arises and what does he do? Voting most active player and FoSing the 2nd activist. How predictable.

The game is barely four days old and I'm a lurker? I think not...and note the sig. Does the fact that my opinion/vote came in my 3rd post make it any less valid? Does that fact you and DRK have posted the most exempt you from suspicion/votes? And my suspicions towards you and DRK are a lot better than your vote on Star.

@havingfitz
1)Why you not posting early? I've seen your posts outside the thread.
2)What are your reads on farside22?

1)I didn't have anything I wanted to say aaaaand note sig. So?
2)In my catch up read this morning I do not recall anything suspicious catching my attention re: farside. So null.

}|{opa pushing DRK as a good cop lynch. Why keep mentioning a cop?

No, I'm not. And it's ToastyToast mentioned the Cop! I FoSing him for that only reason.

My take was you were:

I think DeathRowKitty is a mafia Godfather, since he so obvious target for a Cop.

I mean "since he

IS

so obvious target for a Cop."

However, I see the 2nd was just you correcting your earlier comment. You might want to use EBWOP to make it clear next time. And I still see it as trying to direct actions of the hypothetical cop you believe is in the game. Would steering a potential cop investigation towards DRK benefit you?

[havingfitz]

havingfits: Can you please explain why the following three points you made are "bad"?

-DRK pushing Sundy votes for NK comment. (bad)
-DRK overexagerrating animorph's "too early" for serious votes comment. (bad)
-DRK accusing anomorph of defending Sundy (bad)

Actually how do you get over exaggerating?

Bad because I did not agree with them...not necessarily bad in a scummy way (individually) but all together things I would keep in mind.
1) I didn't find anything too suspicious with Sundy's opening post/nk assessment. As I did not see what DRK could have hoped for Sundy to have said, considering the NKs had comments to relate them to, I found his reason to voting Sundy a bit weak...and to suggest in two subsequent posts to others that a Sundy vote was better than a RV IMO exhibited overeagerness to form a Sundy wagon.
2&3) It appeared animorph had a similar assessment of DRK's thoughts on Sundy so therefore I disagreed with most of what DRK said in his exchange with Animorph. It seemed to me to be an overexaggeration, i.e. making a bigger deal than necessary, when DRK said animorph was defending Sundy and when he said animorph was content with random votes for 20 pages.

[havingfitz]

}|{opa...you said DRK was an "obvious target for a cop". If you do not think that could be construed as trying to direct the investigation of a potential cop then the "Logic Fail" is with you. And while I dislike lurkers as much as the next person, it takes more than just lurking to get my vote. Your vote on Star makes about as much sense as a D1 RV.

Also, please respond to these:

Oh, great. The lurcker-man arises and what does he do? Voting most active player and FoSing the 2nd activist. How predictable.

The game is barely four days old and I'm a lurker?

I think not...and note the sig.

Does the fact that my opinion/vote came in my 3rd post make it any less valid? Does that fact you and DRK have posted the most exempt you from suspicion/votes?

And my suspicions towards you and DRK are a lot better than your vote on Star.

Preview-edit...}|{opa...watch your language. If you can't debate/discuss opinions without personal attacks you look like an illiterate ass. How was my vote predictable? Do I make a habit of placing bandwagon votes? While I didn't realize I had placed you at L-2 I hardly think that is any reason to come unglued. Maybe you have 4 votes because you are coming across as scummy

[havingfitz]

Do you always fall on your own sword when you get close to a lynch?

[havingfitz]

I don't recall any being in any games with }|{opa before so serious question, is he an idiot?

Not sure I've ever been accused of swooping in before but I voted }|{opa for honest suspicions and if he can't handle a few votes on himself, I'm fine with letting drama kings commit suicide. It's not the wincon for town (or scum) and not playing to town's wincon is another good reason for his wagon to exist.

[havingfitz]

Day one random vote.

[havingfitz]

havingfitz is voting Jora yet FOSing DRK, which doesn't stack in my mind. Couple that with the vote opportunism near the end of the wagon and you've got a scummy combo.

So voting and FoSing at the same time is a bad thing? I found them both to be somewhat suspicious. I might lean a bit towards the thought that if one of them were to flip scum, the other would be somewhat clear...but until one or the other does flip (or someone else provides more incriminating material) I'm good with my vote where it is.

@farside...if you think yabba is scum for his vote on me...do you think he was doing it to save a scumbuddy in }|{opa? If yabba is scum in your opinion how would that jive with the possibility of }|{opa being town? (ie...why bother defending him?)

[havingfitz]

@Havingfitz, I have a question about your #109. 7 of your points seem to be against DPK, and you're generally casting suspicion on her scum-hunting. You agree with Opa twice on this list, and then say he is role-fishing and vote for him accordingly. What did you think of DPK's play when she was accusing Opa? You ended up voting for the same candidate. And are you fine with a policy lynch on the first day, especially given how far into it we are?

It's DRK. And is DRK a she?

I answered this in the same post (109) that you're quoting above:

I didn't have any suspicions towards }|{opa until his DRK GF post/Star vote. DRK seems to be overreacting IMO to a lot of people's comments and if it were not for the aforementioned }|{opa suspicion I would probably put my vote on him [DRK]. So I'll

FOS

DRK.
}|{opa however gets this: VOTE: }|{opa

The post is a list of the things that caught my attention as I caught up. The individual observations towards DRK did not outweight the one transgression I observed from }|{opa. If I think someone is scum...I'm going to vote them. I am not going to annoint someone as scum (the GF yet!) and then just FOS them and vote someone who has made all of two posts. As for voting the same candidate...I find }|{opa scummier ATT so the fact my current #2 is voting the same way means nothing (except possibly that they aren't both scum). And where are your policy lynch comments coming from? Did I say anything regarding a policy lynch?

[havingfitz]

I'm wrong all the time. Trouble is I don't realize it until whoever I suspect flips. Only time/votes will tell.

[havingfitz]

@Fitz: you said of Opa you were fine with "letting drama kings commit suicide" since a self-vote is anti-town regardless of alignment.

So how is that supporting a policy lynch when my vote was already on him? If I had had no prior suspicions of }|{opa I would not have voted him for based on his self-vote alone...though it would have been, and is, a negative IMO.

[havingfitz]

@}|{opa, The only vote I would have hesitated placing so early in the game would have been a hammer and I knew no one was close to that.

I thought Good townie Rule #1 was: Always vote the person you think is mafia. You had a wealth of information to form your opinion on DRK and yet you vote a 2 post 'lurker' and proclaim he's a serial killer. I may not keep my vote on you all day but I still like it there. As for your description of the votes currently on you.

Or how's this...Good townie Rule #1a: If you are town don't ever vote yourself. Cause you're town and that's anti-town.

stfu? Now you are just trying to hurt my feelings I'll vote who I like

[havingfitz]

farside...my suspicions of }|{opa and DRK are totally independant of each other. I can and do suspect them both. I just find the suspicion I hold of }|{opa to be more significant att than DRK. And how is anything I have done hypocritical? I'm voting who I think is scum....}|{opa isn't. I'm voting someone who has provided a lot of information to work with, }|{opa isn't. Where is the hypocrisy? And what makes my vote opportunistic? The fact I placed it? <headshake>

[havingfitz]

@Sundy...atm I do. That's why I voted him and why my vote is still there. Like I said...I would not have gome from no-suspicions to a voting him due to his self vote but coupled with the vote I already had on him...it only adds to my suspicions of him.

Also...again...it's DRK and you are not quoting him above...you are quoting }|{opa. And }|{opa's vote is not on himself any longer...I believe he is voting animorph atm.

[havingfitz]

@farside...there is nothing hypocritical about my voting }|{opa and suspecting DRK. Feel free to disagree of course but IMO you are misrepresentng my vote as something it is not.

[havingfitz]

So you don't have a better reason for voting for Jora then the one I quoted? I did ask for more reason's which you neglected from your post.

You asked for more reason.....I gave them with my vote (post 109) and elaborated on them in post 145, here:

The post is a list of the things that caught my attention as I caught up. The individual observations towards DRK did not outweight the one transgression I observed from }|{opa. If I think someone is scum...I'm going to vote them. I am not going to annoint someone as scum (the GF yet!) and then just FOS them and vote someone who has made all of two posts. As for voting the same candidate...I find }|{opa scummier ATT so the fact my current #2 is voting the same way means nothing (except possibly that they aren't both scum).

This is why I voted }|{opa. In plain view for those who take the time to read. Whether my reasons are good or not is a matter of opinion. I say they are good. Translation...his vote on lurkerStar when he believes DRK is a mafia GF and directing a potential cop investigation.

Back to this one...

farside...my suspicions of }|{opa and DRK are totally independant of each other. I can and do suspect them both. I just find the suspicion I hold of }|{opa to be more significant att than DRK. And how is anything I have done hypocritical? I'm voting who I think is scum....}|{opa isn't. I'm voting someone who has provided a lot of information to work with, }|{opa isn't. Where is the hypocrisy? And what makes my vote opportunistic? The fact I placed it? <headshake>

I used your quote with reasoning sir. Your only reason listed and main reason was that he voted for a lurker over someone he suspects more. If there are more reason's then spell them out. Why is Jora scum in your view?

Yes...post 156 had reasons...as did #109 and #145. He...}|{opa...is the most suspicious player (ie what you call scum) atm in my mind for the reasons provided with my vote and in post 145 (above). That is why my vote was placed initially. It remains there for the same reasons AND because of the way he reacted following my vote (the self vote). I need to look back to see if he has revoked his suspisions towards DRK and Star but I find it amusing that }|{opa has now switched over to another ~lurker in animorph.

You had all these points on DRK but vote for jora. That is hypocritical. Saying well this person looks scummy, but I'm voting for X for weak reason is what Jora did and you did. Your vote is opportunistic because Jora has a bw on him.

All my random thoughts (what you call points) are weighed equally. It's not a case where DRK did 5 things to make me go "Hmmmmmm" while }|{opa did 3...so I must vote DRK. The things DRK did were not in total more scummy than what I see from }|{opa.

As for the opportunistic vote...when is a bw vote opportunistic? Vote #2? #3? #4?

FYI...I vote who I suspect most and I don't really care how large their wagon is (unless as previously mentioned the vote would be the hammer). If "opportunistic" applies to any vote less than the #4 I placed then it would appear there were a few other "opportunistic" voters as well.

[havingfitz]

-DRK for accusing Sundy on NK comment (TT did too??)

1)

Timing is everything.

-DRK pushing Sundy votes for NK comment. (bad)
-DRK overexagerrating animorph's "too early" for serious votes comment. (bad)
-DRK accusing anomorph of defending Sundy (bad)

2)

I thought it was pretty decent for early pressure

-DRK...why is Sundy scummy if not for analyzing the nk when he commented on them?

3)

In his very first post of the game, he posted something to the effect of "Whoa! Two people died!" with no other comment on it at the time. No reference to scum dying. No reference to vig dying. Basically, it seems like he just mentioned it to fit in, when there was plenty I would expect someone commenting on NKs to possibly want to say.

-DRK (who earlier argues the likelihood of a Vig killing N0) states he wouldn't expect a one-shot vig to shoot night 1.

4)

Is this the same situation?

-Posts 73 DRK tells people to not speculate on setup and then in the next post (post 74) he speculates on setup .

5)

Post 74 was me telling people to hold off until we had information to work with to start speculating on what roles were in the game, not me speculating on the setup.

Bad because I did not agree with them...not necessarily bad in a scummy way (individually) but all together things I would keep in mind.
1) I didn't find anything too suspicious with Sundy's opening post/nk assessment. As I did not see what DRK could have hoped for Sundy to have said, considering the NKs had comments to relate them to, I found his reason to voting Sundy a bit weak...and to suggest in two subsequent posts to others that a Sundy vote was better than a RV IMO exhibited overeagerness to form a Sundy wagon.
2&3) It appeared animorph had a similar assessment of DRK's thoughts on Sundy so therefore I disagreed with most of what DRK said in his exchange with Animorph. It seemed to me to be an overexaggeration, i.e. making a bigger deal than necessary, when DRK said animorph was defending Sundy and when he said animorph was content with random votes for 20 pages.

6)

If you don't think the actions themselves are scummy, is it the pattern of actions you think is scummy? And, yes, I over-exaggerated on ani. I don't like people making excuses for my targets....

1) Fair enough wrt TT. Though the Sundy vote for not making a comment on the NK...when there really was not comment worth making IMO..is still suspicious.
2) I did not rule that out (hence only an FoS atm)
3) What "plenty" would you expect someone to say in their first post following a pair of N0 NKs? There were no conversations or wagons to link to them. Would a comment like "The scum nk was blind luck and the vig nk was tough luck" have got us anywhere?
4) Close enough to make it seem like a minor contradiction. 1-shot or not...I doubt a Vig would have acted N0.
5)

Stop speculating about the setup -__-

Well, if there are 2 kills tonight, it becomes likely there's an sk. Can still technically not be one.

Looks like speculating to me.

6) Glad you admit to overexaggerating on ani. I considered your actions as a whole when I FoS'd you. If "as a whole" = "pattern of actions"...then yes, it's your pattern of actions I find suspicious.

[havingfitz]

@ farside...

In response to your 1st quote of me - I hate it when people neither use links OR provide post numbers. Apologies that it takes you a few seconds to get to a post #. If I was hiding something I wouldn't have provided post numbers in the first place.

In response to your 2nd quote of me (my post 156) - First off...you are not posting them in the order that I mention them. I said I gave my reasons

"with my vote (post 109) and elaborated on them in post 145"

. Back to #156...you say I gave no reasons....I consider this

"I just find the suspicion I hold of }|{opa to be more significant att than DRK."

a reason. Not much of a reason but I provided more detail in the earlier posts already mentioned. I also provided a translation for your benefit afterwards, to no avail apparently,

"Translation...his vote on lurkerStar when he believes DRK is a mafia GF and directing a potential cop investigation."

. <-- I only need one reason to suspect/vote someone but note...two reasons are highlighted in translation.

In response to your 3rd quote (my post 109) and your 4th impaired-quote of me (my post 145) - You say no reason was given. Well...you cut off all the earlier comments I provided within post 109 (scummy of you) but I did say

I didn't have any suspicions towards }|{opa

until his DRK GF post/Star vote.

. Bold would be a reason. And in the messed up quote I said,

The individual observations towards DRK did not outweight the one transgression I observed from }|{opa. If I think someone is scum...I'm going to vote them.

I am not going to annoint someone as scum (the GF yet!) and then just FOS them and vote someone who has made all of two posts.

As for voting the same candidate...I find }|{opa scummier ATT so the fact my current #2 is voting the same way means nothing (except possibly that they aren't both scum).

This entire section explains why my vote is on }|{opa while the bold part explains (FMPOV) more specifically.

In response to your 5th quote of me (my post 109 again) - You say I gave one reason. I gave the primary reason along with my other thoughts on }|{opa. I only need one reason IMO to vote someone. Especially early in the game. I also question his mention of a cop (in 109) and have discussed this with }|{opa and elaborated on it in my Translation above.

tl:dr;

@farside...you have asked for the reason/s why I voted }|{opa. I have provided my reasons for my vote and IMO I have provided more reason for my }|{opa vote (combined with subsequent post-vote suspicions) then most of the other people with votes out. I'm not convinced }|{opa is scum by any means and I'm on the fence as some of his posts give me a town feel. However, I do not like not having my vote in play and until someone passes him I will keep it where it is. That said...your continued disdain of my vote (for whatever reason) and painting my vote as hypocritcal and opportunistic (which you have not responded to my question of) is bumping you up into contention on my suspect list. I.e.

FoS farside.

[havingfitz]

I'm highlighting the fact that my reason/s were provided more than once and in the quotes you claim no reason or one reason. The fact they are all the same is not important...the fact they were provided is. Like I said, you asked for my reason/s for voting }|{opa, I have provided my reason/s for voting }|{opa, and I have added to those reasons (post-vote). There is nothing hypocritical about my vote (one of your primary reasons for voting me) and I disagree that there was anything opportunistic in my vote. Why is your vote on me not opportunistic? Why was TT's vote on }|{opa not opportunistic?

[havingfitz]

I'll type this slow for you farside.....

First off...I am reading what people wrote. Don't insinuate I'm not.

When you voted me this was the reason why,

"Saying a person has suspicion over one person then voting another and doing the same is hypocritical, which I learned isn't scummy, but opportunistic vote hopping on a BW. That is scummy.

AND

"If someone had a scummier read on one person over another they would vote that person, but when the reason to vote one person over another that is already 4 votes in is not only opportunist but scummy at that point."

At the time I placed my vote on }|{opa I only had a few suspicions towards him but they were more significant IMO than the things I took note of from DRK. I do not see why this concept is so difficult for you to grasp. It's like DRK has committed 5 or 6 misdemeanors and then }|{opa comes along and commits a felony.

In that analogy }|{opa is going to get the bulk of my attention. That is what is happening with my vote. He only had two points against him when I voted and they outweighed the numerous observaations I had on DRK. I never said I suspected DRK more or said I thought he was scum (or GF). Your reasoning is crap and is a misrepresentation of my vote on }|{opa. 1-2 suspicions is perfectly fine to place a vote...especially early in the game.

And are you saying the 4th vote on a player is more opportunistic than the 2nd or 3rd? If so...the 5 and 6th votes must really set you off

[havingfitz]

Are you going to sit here and say that scum don't vote for opportunistic reasons? Are you going to sit there and state that scum don't use weak reason's to case their votes?

I didn't say either of those statements. In fact I would say they do both things most of the time. My vote isn't opportunistic and my reason for voting }|{opa isn't weak. So what is your point? In fact, since you brought these two points up...I would say they both apply much better to your vote and subsequent, and IMO feigned, lack of comprehension.

I also listed other various reason I find you scum in my last post. And yes when I ask someone twice for

other

reason's they find a person scummy and I get nothing but the same garbage over and over I will accuse that player of not reading and skimming the game.

Other various reasons? You mean "'not reading" [misrep] and "fluff" [opinion...misrep]. Mmmmmmkay. My reason for voting }|{opa was not garbage and how many ways can I communicate 1+ reasons for placing a vote? I can't give more reasons when there are not more reasons for placing my vote. There wer a few more reasons after I placed my vote but that not what you asked. Capiche? No?

For continuing to push a non existent case and misrepping my actions...which are there for all to see.

VOTE: farside22

Don't ask me for more reasons becuase the ones mentioned above are all I have atm.

[havingfitz]

farside...call it OMGUS if you like. That's just par for your reasoning in this game. It's not like my voting you was an immediate reaction to you voting me. It was only after your continued refusal to comprehend (either intentionlly which I suspect or not intentionally which would be sad) what I have said to you. That said, now I can focus on finding your partners.

[havingfitz]

Funny Borat. Can you put names with the quotes. I see my quote but do not know who the first is from. NVM...I did a search and see it is from yabbaguy. But player names would still be appreciated.

[havingfitz]

You misrepped it by calling my vote hypocritical and opportunistic. Those are a few buzz words from you that don't apply. You pushing an invalid case is something I see scum normally do.

[havingfitz]

And I told you why it wasn't. I feel like I'm talking to a wall. Since your vote is already on me it's somewhat moot to go on (but I will in a bit), but for any masochists in the group who want to go over our exchange...they can judge for themselves if your or my alignment is in question.

(A bit later)...you say

"saying your

points on DRK are minor because

Jora thought DRK was the GF and may have been trying to signal the cop and didn't vote DRK. Is this correct?"

Because? No....compared to. My points against DRK were minor. But for }|{opa's actions/posts I would have voted for DRK. But I felt that }|{opa was more suspect <-------SEE!...hence the difference between my DRK vote and }|{opa's ST vote (IMO) and therefore not hypocritical. I repeated my self because there was nothing more to say about my vote on }|{opa but you continue to ask for more. A simple ISO on me would have saved a few pages of reiteration. But at least you are showing your misrep skills.

...you say

"People will do what they please and read players and make choices based on their reads not by what is said in thread."

What? You're saying people don't develop reads on others based on what is said? Ridiculous. To me at least. All we have to go on is what is said. <headshake>

...you say

"as I said before you had multiple points against DRK but didn't vote for him. Jora is making a statement about DRK's alignment with no real reason. What is the point of voting for someone based on a theory? "

You aren't comprehending. I've explained this multiple times. The multiple misdemeanors vs the felony analogy? If you don't get it you don't get it. Wasn't voting on theory...was voting on }|{opa's words. Isn't your vote on me on the theory you can get a mislynch on me?

I haven't ignored anything you have said. Just like you refuse to understand anything I have said. If I wasn't voting you already I'd vote you again...feigned lack or comprehension (because I think you are competent) is scummy.

[havingfitz]

EBWOP:
"feigned lack or comprehension" should have read "feigned lack

of

comprehension"

[havingfitz]

Calling your description of my }|{opa vote a misrep is not a life line...its a fact. In my 30ish town aligned games I might have been an investigative role 2 or 3 times though I only remember one of them (a seer). I don't recall any others but I can't imagine not having been one at least 1-2 more times.

[havingfitz]

Calling your description of my }|{opa vote a misrep is not a life line...its a fact. In my 30ish town aligned games I might have been an investigative role 2 or 3 times though I only remember one of them (a seer). I don't recall any others but I can't imagine not having been one at least 1-2 more times.

Okay now have you ever in your life listen to a player who said OMG that player is scum and should be investigated? Or did you check players based on your own reads?

I would check people based on my own reads.

[havingfitz]

You're joking right farside? I stated why }|{opa's post was suspicious.

READ!

The leading a cop point is minor and the fact you beive it was made up by scum is...wait for it...your theory. Hypocrite.

And if }|{opa's vote post didn't read as a case...then are you saying he didn't present a case with his vote? I find that suspicious. But I think he did....and the case he did provide was....wait for it....suspicious. And why does whether someon is using theory or not matter? Whether }|{opa's GF suspicion of DRK was based on gut...perceived scum tells...or theory....he still didn't vote him. Instead he chose to vote someone who had made all of 2 posts.

And speaking of his votee...

did Startransmission bail? WTF!!!? Four posts in total? (ie prod prod prod)

And you are still realizing something that is not the case. I hope you are lynched soon because this game can not progress alone on the ridiculous exchange between us perpetuated by you. Just keep you vote on my and focus on finding another mislynch to target or perhaps bus a partner or something. This exchange is getting us nowhere.

[havingfitz]

1. You turned away from your argument, like it didn't matter.
2. In doing this, you make us look at his post in a worse light than it really is in.
3. He's not ranting, he's been picked at and picked at and picked at until he couldn't take it any more - not ranting scum, just sick and tired [alignment*].

1. No, I explain things over and over even in my last post.
2. I'm using his quotes and asking questions. So you agree with his view on Jora and his vote and reasoning?
3. No he shut down because he has no out that = scum.

I even rationalized why his vote and reasoning for voting Jora is opportunistic and he flipped out but to the same song and dance. That is not rational or town reaction. That is scum that got put on the grill and burned.

1. As do I. You keep making blatant misrepresentations of my actions. Then I explain why they are blatent misrepresentations...and you continue to make blatant misrepresentations of my actions. Then I explain why they are blatent misrepresentations...and you continue to make blatant misrepresentations of my actions. Then I explain why they are blatent misrepresentations...and you continue to make blatant misrepresentations of my actions.
2. Gold star for you. The fact you are quoting me (without comprehending what I've said or coupled with your misrepresentations) means nothing.
3. I haven't shut down. I'm just tired of you not getting it. We're both voting each other (you for your crap reasons and me for your crap reasoning) so great.


And how did I flip out? Was it the

READ!

comment? That wasn't flipping out. That was urging you to actually read what I am writing since continued repitition of the same points seems to be evading you. Scum getting burnt on the grill....whatever.

WTF is ~everyone else?

[havingfitz]

@farside & havingfitz: bullet point case on each other, please, you've both lost me. Also havingfitz, your --->maddening<---- use of

EMPHASIS

is

totally unnecessary.

Ummm...I will not stop bolding words or comments when I want to

emphasize

them...and I do not think I have overdone the use of bold font in this game.

Bullet points....sure, 1)

tl:dr;

@farside...you have asked for the reason/s why I voted }|{opa. I have provided my reasons for my vote and IMO I have provided more reason for my }|{opa vote (combined with subsequent post-vote suspicions) then most of the other people with votes out. I'm not convinced }|{opa is scum by any means and I'm on the fence as some of his posts give me a town feel. However, I do not like not having my vote in play and until someone passes him I will keep it where it is. That said...your continued disdain of my vote (for whatever reason) and painting my vote as hypocritcal and opportunistic (which you have not responded to my question of) is bumping you up into contention on my suspect list. I.e.

FoS farside.

And...
2) my ISO 21
and...
3)my ISO 22.

Is she doing this on purpose, or do you think she's misguided? There's a very gigundo difference between the two, and I don't buy this.

Call it pot-kettle-black all you want, but I'm still of the belief that scum are in the mega-lurkers. 'Cause there is no pot-kettle-black, that's the tu quoque fallacy. Trouble is, I don't know which lurker 'cause they haven't done anything actively scummy. ._.

On purpose....looking back on my games with her I find other instances of her carrying on silly arguments like this...but not to this extent. I'm giving her intellect the benefit of the doubt when I say I think she is doing it on purpose because I have made my points very clear. I therefore have to assume she is either town trying to fock with me to get some sort of reaction or she is scum legitimately trying to push a mislynch and/or distract the rest of the players/lurkers from contributing to any worthwhile scumhunting. Either way fmpov I'd like to see her go atm. As for there being scum amongst the lurkers...I think that's pretty much a given. is how many?

[havingfitz]

Fitz: What question did I miss?

...at the time of the

tl:dr

quote above....you hadn't responded to my question about opportunistic votes. You eventually got around to touching on it.

At the time of Fitz's vote he placed the vote on Jora: Reasons here
I called the vote weak, opportunist and hypocritical.

You did not mention "weak" when you placed your vote on me but that is hardly an indictment of anyone that places an early D1 vote and only has 2 reasons for doing so. And one of the reasons for my vote I would still maintain was not "weak"...at least not for a 1st vote (by me) out of RVS.

After some more talks I retract the hypocritical talk realized it was inacurate.

I didn't realize you had come to your senses regarding your hypocrisy accusation. Bravo to you. My bad.

Since the basis of your opportunistic vote accusation was the fact that my vote was hypocritical...shouldn't that undermine your continued stance that the vote was opportunistic?

1) The vote is weak because the reason's fitz had for DRK were stronger then Jora's vote.
2) Opportunistic because of the BW forming.
3) I pointed out the reason's why I found fitz vote weak (the leading the cop) and why Jora's vote on DRK wasn't scummy.
4) The why vote for a theory over someone floating by.
5) Fitz reaction and still calling my case scummy is in my view scum caught with no way out.

1- I did not think my thoughts re: DRK outweighed my suspicions of }|{opa. I have explained this. Apparently this is a difference in opinion. Why do you think the points I brought up regarding DRK are stronger than the ones I brought up (actually I think TT brought it up) re: }|{opa?
2- Opinion. I disagree. Also...you were basing opportunitic on hypocritical. One point is gone now...why not the other?
3- I would agree that the suspicion for potentially leading an investigation is minor....it was not the reason I placed my vote...it only contributed to it. What does }|{opa's vote on DRK have to do with any of this?
4- I do not understand what you are talking about here. Voting for theory instead of

for someone floating by?

5- Do you know how I usually react to false and inaccurate accusations? Hmm? And you admit the hypocritical part was wrong...and it formed both the basis for your vote on me and for the continued reaction I gave.

I thought for a moment my read on fitz was wrong as he was communicating back and arguing his points but when someone ignores the views of another player and still calling them scum and ranting I feel it's caught scum who has no way out.

I haven't ignored anything. I see your views and do not agree with them because i know they are wrong. Are you saying you would feel better about me if I agreed with your views???? The views that support your "theory" that I am scummy? That makes a lot of sense (not).

[havingfitz]

I've shown why I believe everything I stated. You called my case non existent and misrep, but I explained my reasoning and your still calling me scum, which doesn't make sense to me.

It was non existent and a misrep. You admit yourself that my vote on }|{opa was not hypocritical.

I realize looking at this again it was not hypocritical.

Yet when you initially placed you vote on me...the basis for my }|{opa vote being opportunistic was that it was hypocritical. See below:

Saying a person has suspicion over one person then voting another and doing the same is hypocritical, which I learned isn't scummy, but opportunistic vote hopping on a BW.
That is scummy.

Now you acknowledge that my vote wasn't hypocritical (after much frustrating reiteration of my disagreement on that point) and yet you maintain your vote on me...despite the foundation of your opportunistic claim being removed. So now you are voting me for an opportunistic vote and my }|{opa vote reasoning being weak. Amazing I haven't been lynched yet with rationale like that against me.

And the activitiy level is agonizingly slow. It appears the options at the moment are for 2 or 3 active posters to continue to eat each other alive or to throw darts at the lurkers and hope scum is hit. Problem with that though is scum isn't going to throw a dart at a scum buddy so that would probably just result in a mislynch. I predict a looooooong D1.

I hope Sundy's v/LA went well.

[havingfitz]

It was non existent and a misrep. You admit yourself that my vote on }|{opa was not hypocritical.

Seriously????!!! How the fuck do you still say this?

Say what? Why the fuck are you still dragging this out? You've admitted you were in error thinking my }|{opa vote was hypocritical.

In summary:
farside....your vote is hypocritical and therefore opportunistic.
havingfitz...my vote is not hypocritical nor is it opportunistic...here is why.
farside...yes it is hypocritical and therefore opportunistic....oh....and weak too.
havingfitz...no it's not...I've said why...here it is again...Oh, and weak is subjective.
farside...Yes it is.
havingfitz...no it isn't
farside...Wait...maybe your vote wasn't hypocritical...I was wrong.
havingfitz...Yes you were wrong. And since your opportunistic point was based on your hypocrisy point...neither remain.
farside...huh? d'what?

Feel free to keep your vote where it is for the reasons you no longer support. But please drop the debate. Nothing was wrong with my }|{opa vote or suspicions....unlike your continued push on me for reasons you yourself no longer believe in.

[havingfitz]

I feel bad for being a subject causing this brawl.

As you should. I may never forgive you.

[havingfitz]

This game is draaaaaaaaaagging. It's hard to get worked up towards anyone when most players aren't saying anything. Let's see who is contributing IMO:

- }|{opa...44 posts...nothing worthwhile since he voted last Thursday.
- DRK...26 posts. Has had some stretches of inactivity but when he does post it is usually something worth reading. i.e. he's making an effort when he does post.
- yabbaguy...14 posts. A few decent content posts but a lot of posts filled with questions or fluff as well. Semi-lurker.
- Toast...32 posts. The bulk of his posts contain one or two lines without content. Seems to be posting a bit better recently.
- cjdrum...20 posts. First half of posting of little value...very short fluff posts. Seems to be picking things up as game goes along.
- Sundy...16 posts + a v/LA. Good posts. Actively hunting IMO.
- Star...6 posts. Two posts that resemble any attempt at effort and admits to possibly not contributing much today....but promises more later.
- animorph/bv...9 total posts. animorph had 7 one liners that didn't say a lot and bv has 2 posts in 6 days and has besically just expressed remorse/doubt at joining the game. Totally worthless slot so far.
- farside...38 posts, the bulk of which are spent tunnelling up the wrong tree.
- HF(me)...38 posts. The bulk of which spent dealing with farside.

With the activity level I have my doubts about getting a good enough read on anyone to avoid a mislynch but I don't think it's out of the question. I still have all my suspicions of farside which unlike her...I stand by....but if I had to move it I would want to move it to ani/bv or Star or perhaps yabbaguy. Mostly based on what they have not done (make an effort at participating) rather than what they have done.

[havingfitz]

@yabba...what do you mean "which is it"? My vote on farside has nothing to do with the fact I would be willing to move my vote if necessary to one of the less frequent posters. And my issue with then isn't their post count...it's the fact they aren't saying anything when they DO post.

[havingfitz]

farside..."if this is your town game?" You do realize you have only ever been in games with me when I was town don't you? FMPOV this game is no different. So yes...this is my town game. I go after people I suspect. When I am town I suspect people who come after me (because scum like to get town lynched). And while I am less suspicious of people coming after me if I have done something that could reasonably be viewed as scummy...I do not think that applies in this case so I maintain suspicions towards you.

The fact you are jumping up and down and shouting your frustration at my not seeing your case is ridiculous. We've spent much of the last week going back and forth on my }|{opa vote and I have addressed all of your accusations. You give TT credit for standing up for himself to cj but when I do it to you I'm off my rocker.

Now since you aren't able to get support for my wagon...you move over to yabba with a parting ad-hom that I suck as town. This despite the fact that you have concluded you are losing it and have backed off your suspicions towards me (ie you were wrong????). IMO is seems you are trying to keep your options open by voting yabba while slandering me by proclaiming me at worst-scum...at best-off my fucking rocker inept town.

---

Yabba...I have seen tunneling used as a negative towards others numerous times but I do not ever recall seeing it described as something inherently done by town. And I have never seen "deliberately contriving" mentioned before. If "deliberately contriving" is what you call tunneling by scum than that is what I suspect farside of.

Since my exchange with farside has dominated the last week or so...I'm not sure what to make of the fact that no one (ie scum) has taken the opportunity to join in on one of our wagons. I am inclined to think that since we, IMO, most likely had three mafia to start the game (and therefore are down to 2 now)...that both scum would not want to be the only ones pushing my wagon and if farside was in fact scum...her buddy would obviously not want to go near her wagon. If we were both town...I think at leasst one of the remaining scum in the game would have tested the waters by joining one of our wagons. This is compounded by the fact that no one else in the game seems to care. The farside-havingfitz debate is apparently a victim of town apathy and scum caution.

DRK appears to have decided on the useless to town option....nice. zzzzzzzzzz

I vote yes to Rule 17! We need a flip to sink our teeth into.

[havingfitz]

EBWOP:

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[havingfitz]

DRK seems to have no problem posting in other games. If I thought DRK was scum I would vote for DRK but I'm not convinced. DRK!!!! Please replace out! arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh......

[havingfitz]

moprh/bv replacing out while saying next to nothing and posting in other games is more suspicious then star who's play is typically (IE: null)

I take this to be frustration at being townie. Not speaking from experience (since I never replace out regardless), if I was going to replace out of a game...most likely it would be from a town game since I seldom (ie but once) get to be scum. So IMO ani/bv probably falls below other lurkers such as Star.

If we're forcing replacements I'll nominate DRK too.

[havingfitz]

Less than three hours away from the

double prod!

Exciting!

[havingfitz]

I don't care for DRK's continued cameo appearances where she lets us know that she's not intested in the game...yet she continues to pop in and puts a vote down on yabba based on gut conveniently right after yabba expresses suspicions towards DRK. And while it gives (or gave) me a headache dealing with farside...for you [DRK] to advocate we not post anymore is in effect trying to restrain two of the most active posters. My top suspect isn't getting any attention so I'll try elsewhere.

VOTE: DRK

[havingfitz]

Nvm about replacing DRK just missed DRK's post.
LOL sorry fitz I disagree that comment from DRK about us is town all the way. It's true too. I know I'm town and if you are town us fighting helps the scum.

What if one of us is not town? Do you know my alignment? I don't know yours.

[havingfitz]

@farside....that's fine. I still do not support squashing of any conversation. Even if you are resigned to thinking I'm town and if I were to think you were town...it still would not do the game any good to put te brakes on our exchanges. If for any other reason than to help town in the game to establish their assessment on each of us and perhaps generate some other discussion in this game (though that has not been the case so far). Do you agree with DRK that we should not talk to each other?

[havingfitz]

@farside....that's fine. I still do not support squashing of any conversation. Even if you are resigned to thinking I'm town and if I were to think you were town...it still would not do the game any good to put te brakes on our exchanges. If for any other reason than to help town in the game to establish their assessment on each of us and perhaps generate some other discussion in this game (though that has not been the case so far). Do you agree with DRK that we should not talk to each other?

I took it as he saw it as us doing more arguing. I honestly felt the same because your stubbornness is beyond understanding for me. Town on town arguments help the scum. I'm still talking to you so I don't agree with all communications coming to a halt.
I take it you feel DRK was saying something completely different?

Are you saying you support DRKs comment or that you think her comment was pro-town? I feel DRK was saying this:

I would like to suggest to that farside and HF are not allowed to respond to each others' posts anymore.

If you want to read deeper into this feel free to. To me it looks like she wanted discussion between two of the more/most active players to stop. This would not only reduce a significant portion of any of the discussions taking place...it would also prevent others from assessing us (ie scumhunting) and potentially joining in on or commenting on our discussion and therefore providing info for town to assess. Is my opinion not clear to you and if it is...is there anything pro-town from DRK about the way I interpret his comment? Does he know you and I are both town? Does anyone else? If not...then how can anyone know our chat is town on town?

[havingfitz]

@Havingfitz: What about DRK's popping in and out of the game causes you to vote in comparison to the other lurkers who are doing the same thing? Couldn't come up with a better way to phrase that question...

Pardon the delayed reply TT. At the moment I prefer DRK over the other lurkers because of the continued excuse posts (aka lack of interest), chiming in just enough to avoid prods/replacement....voting based on "useless gut" reads when there should be better reasons than gut at this point IMO. ani/bv just haven't done squat so I do not think they warrant a vote. Star was an option....and yabba ass well. DRK just rose to the top for me. And funny enough I notice a little surge in her posting sooooo

[havingfitz]

Why do you think my gut is useless though?

I mean, I could plausibly make the same argument of you: you're voting for lurkers when there should be better reasons than lurking at this point IMO. I've pointed to posts you can look at, agree with, refute. You're voting me for not being interested in the game.

It's a quote. You called it a "useless gut" vote...not me. And if I was voting someone for lurking you would be way down on the list. Active lurking perhaps but not lurking.

[havingfitz]

Between March 31 and April 7, I didn't make a single post that could even remotely be misconstrued as being useful. How is that active lurking and not just lurking?

DRK...what is your point? I'm not debating active lurking vs lurking with you. You called your vote on yabba "useless gut" (any comment on that?)...and you said there were better reasons than lurking to vote people for. First off DRK...I never said I was voting you for lurking. Check it. You brought up the topic of lurking. I said you weren't lurking....I said

perhaps

you were active lurking but

not

lurking. It doesn't matter though because I did not vote you for lurking OR for active lurking. Debate the differences with someone else. Secondly, you say there are better reasons than lurking at this point to vote someone (I agree)....I would also argue (and I did) that there are better reasons than "useless gut" to vote someone at this point in the game.

Thoughts?

[havingfitz]

@Fitz and Jora: What is you view of Sundy's play?

Decent when he does post but not posting as much as I would like. Not a real strong town or scum feeling towards him. Seems to be asking a lot of questions but not sure what he is doing with the answers. Not sure who his main suspicions are.

[havingfitz]

Usually when a player role gets to it's 3rd replacement I feel that slot is town regardless of how bad a player they are. I figure people who play mafia don't get many opportunities to be scum so when they do get the chance...they don't like to waste it. ani and bv have both been posting regularly since this game began so I take their absence to be lack of interest in this game/their position. So town read on ZF for now. That said, and not being one to squash discussion, I'll entertain your accusations.

One thing I noticed in your post on me is it has a few

misrepresentations

(underlined) in it and

overexaggerates

(in bold) a bit.

I'm now reading over HF's banter with Farside.

You're one of the few I'm sure. My condolences.

This vote

screams

OMGUS. Maybe not OMGUS specifically,

So it "

screams OMGUS

" but "maybe not OMGUS specifically?" How can those two situations co-exist? It screams it but it's not specifically it. The "screams" OMGUS would appear to be an overexaggeration if you yourself feel it may not specifically be OMGUS.

That said...I don't care if my votes are ever viewed as OMGUS. If I find suspicions with someone I will vote them regardless of where their vote or suspicions are directed. So whether anyone considers my earlier farside vote OMGUS not doesn't matter IMO...what does matter IMO is you being so forceful in proclaiming it OMGUS and immediately stepping back.

it seems that

he votes farside simply for disagreeing with him

, rather than doing anything scummy (which IMO is along the same lines as an OMGUS vote).

It "seems?" Way to take a stance (btw...why no vote atm?). Nowhere do I say I'm voting farside for disagreeing with me. I am voting farside for the same reasons she was voting me (opportunistic + accusations of poor reasoning) and FMPOV, misrepresentations and pushing the aforementioned non-existent case. Do those reasons equate to "simply for disagreeing?"

In addition to that, he has generally weak reasoning for his votes, and

finishes with a "don't ask me for more reasons",

Which reasons of mine do you feel are "generally weak?" Do you agree with farsides suspicions towards me? If so...can you remind me which of her reasons you agree with? Also...I do not appreciate you cutting my quote in half in effect creating a misrep. I said "don't ask me for more reasons

becuase the ones mentioned above are all I have atm.

If you have two or three reasons for voting for someone and someone else keeps asking you for reasons above and beyond those two or three reasons....you can not give them more reasons if you do not have more reasons to give!

casting his vote in steel

,

refusing any further discussion.

Over exaggeration seems to be your forte. Where did I refuse any discussion? Let me give a simple example of what is taking place here so that it might be clear to you.

farside: HF...how many thumbs do you have?
HF: Two.
farside: HF...how many thumbs do you have?
HF: Two.
farside: HF...do you have more thumbs?
HF: No.
farside: HF...do you have more thumbs?
HF: No! Stop asking me if I have more thumbs.
ZF: HAVINGFITZ IS REFUSING ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION! ANTI-TOWN! DO!...NOT!...TOLERATE!

This is extremely anti-town behavior and should not be tolerated.

<stands at attention> SIR, YES SIR! So what are your thoughts on DRK actually doing what you falsely accuse me of (i.e. wanting to restrict discussion)?

Also, did you plan on going anywhere with your "possible game changing question" and why haven't you voted anyone?

[havingfitz]

on Fitz, for reasons that seemed more plausible

Please elaborate. Which reasons for suspecting me do you consider plausible? Do you support the reasons you find plausible?

[havingfitz]

Agreed - "no lynching on day one is stupid." Hopping on a wagon for the sake of hopping on a wagon...just to avoid a no lynch is even more stupid. Odds favor the day one lynch being a mislynch and those odds get even higher when 'town' jumps on wagons without any good reason. Star didn't exactly leave covered with a town aura and Jak has not helped redeem that player slot IMO.

VOTE: TheJakalope

[havingfitz]

ZF...nice ad hom. You can kiss my confused end.

Why do I take issue with your post:

If you have come to the belief that farside and I were town vs town why would you devote time to the post above? To leave open the possibility of coming back to me later? You’ve dedicated more time and effort on someone you believe is town (and yet is you #2 suspect iirc) than you have on the person you are voting.

I said generally weak specifically because I'd have to list several points I feel are weak, and that takes time. But I'll give you a couple examples for your benefit.

Your 109 (ISO #2). You reference "aformentioned reasons", of which there are two.

}|{opa's statement that DRK is a GF and subsequent vote on someone with 2 posts who, other than the fact they have only made two posts, has done nothing suspicious.
-}|{opa pushing DRK as a good cop lynch. Why keep mentioning a cop?

Yeah…. I only gave two reasons. What is your point? My “aforementioned reasons” was referring to the two reasons I provided. You’re just practicing your typing skills…aren’t you? And if you have several points….please take that time to list them. Considering I only gave two reasons I can’t wait to see which “several points” you are able to list.

1) I searched for what you were referencing, and I found Opa's post about how three people had made only two posts, and one of them (startransmission) was not contributing harder than the others. This was a valid, albiet (IMO) weak reason for Jora to vote.

At best…it was a weak reason for }|{opa to disregard DRK for Star…at worst, it was bypassing someone considered scummy for a lurker….deemed to be a potential sk after only making two post.

2) Referencing that same post by Jora, you say he's pushing for a DRK lynch, except he voted star at the end.

So your "case" on him was very weak.

Why is my case weak? Why is my case weak? Why is my case weak? Why is my case weak? Please elaborate. Without stating why it was weak the accusation (of weakness) is meaningless. And does a weak case not have merit? Especially early on Day one when there isn’t a lot to work with? Can you provide some examples of strong cases on anyone and if they exist…why isn’t that person gone yet?

Your 145 (ISO #10). You reference your two weak reasons in post 109.

Yeah. So? And once again….why weak? Is weak not valid? Examples of strong reasons (within time proximity of when I was voting }|{opa)?

In the second section of this post you claim to have explained your reason for voting Opa. However, you simply refer back to the posts farside called you out on in the first place, that is, the one listing a couple weak reasons (and nothing else) and the one referencing those weak reasons. You beg us to look back at your posts when there's nothing to look back on. There's no foundation for your case.

Were you and farside separated at birth? What does this quote do? I provided my reasons for voting }|{opa when I voted him. Referencing back to that post is bad how?

To answer your second question, yes I did agree with her suspicions, but for different reasons. Reading it over again and again, I've changed my mind. I believe that exchange with farside was town v town (with confusion on your end).

Which suspicions did you agree with? The hypocrisy? The opportunism? The relative strength of my suspicions? Which ones? And for the ones you do agree with…what are the different reasons?

If you are going to take the time to slander someone you think is town, then I am going to take the time to point out where you are in error and ask for clarification where you are being vague.

[havingfitz]

Sundy...you have asked more than a few people for their opinion of me. If I'm not mistaken you have mentioned me more than anyone else in your ISO. What's up. Are you still FoSing me? What have your numerous queries to others regarding me told you?

[havingfitz]

Sundy...I'm not going to debate my suspicions of farside or my vote on }|{opa with you as I'm pretty sure you can read and I don't feel like repeating myself. That coupled with I just picked on that scab again this morning with ZF.

As for Jak vs Fang...the only reason I'm passing on ZF atm is because of my habit of giving slots that have been replaced 2 or more times a little leeway. Today at least....maybe not tomorrow depending on whether he or I are still around.

Jak replaced into a role that had a lot of suspicion towards it and has done nothing to divert that attention. He has posted just enough to remain in the game but has brought nothing...and despite being so close to being the day's lynch...he has done nothing to save himself. Even when he was (is he still?) at L-1. I see he has posted a few times today but has ignored this game. I'm good with staying on the Star/Jak wagon.

[havingfitz]

Well...Jak's at L-2 so he is the frontrunner atm and the day is almost over. Jak...Got Claim?

[havingfitz]

10 hours until deadline. Jak is at L-2. No one else is really close. Jak has claimed. So.....whassup?

[havingfitz]

Checking in. Catching up a bit. Not sure why there is so much discussion about an SK More later.

[havingfitz]

Apologies...Spring break with the family and nothing to say in here ATM has restricted my posting. Will try to get some thoughts posted in the next few days (if not today).

[havingfitz]

Read D2....not seeing anything solid on the Toast cases (especially the }|{opa one).....I've suspected to some degree all the people on the Toast wagon so that supports my doubts on it. I haven't been a big fan, albeit not the most vocally, of cj and after reading D2 I just get a scummy feeling from her.

VOTE: cjdrum

[havingfitz]

I don't have anyone significantly ahead of everyone else when it comes to suspicions. I admit that my vote on cj is not airtight. Far from it. Primarily based on gut after catching up on day 2. I also agree that TTs and DRKs subsequent cj votes were very suspect. I have not gone back to see it they had both targetted cj previous to their votes but either way...an explanation would be nice.

[havingfitz]

Also, havingfitz, you haven't responded here either. Answers, pl0x?

Uh...this is what I have atm. If I see more I will provide it:

I don't have anyone significantly ahead of everyone else when it comes to suspicions. I admit that my vote on cj is not airtight. Far from it. Primarily based on gut after catching up on day 2. I also agree that TTs and DRKs subsequent cj votes were very suspect. I have not gone back to see it they had both targetted cj previous to their votes but either way...an explanation would be nice.

[havingfitz]

Random ISO...TT seems to be getting a lot of attention so I did one on him. I like most of his posting the first page but then....I got to the post where he says cj is off his scumlist (TT ISO 25). This is followed shortly thereafter by his TOAST rating post where the only bad thing he hass to say towards cj is about cj's "joking approach"...which I admit I find suspect as well...but he (TT) still hass cj above a null read on Sundy and a leaning scum read on }|{opa. Then, strangely enough...within an hour of cj posting (for the first time in almost a week) that he suspects TT (and placing a vote on TT)...TT decides he could see cj and yabba as a scum team. Followed by the unexplained vote on cj. So overall...a decent first page of posting by TT but from ISO 28 on I must say he doesn't come across as very consistent. Why flip to cj so easily when you really really think yabba is scum and from what I can tell...you appear to suspect }|{opa and Sundy as much or more than Sundy. Is you vote on cj there for any reason other than the "joking approach?"

Also...really not liking the totally frivolous and silly apple defense posts by DRK for his cj vote.

[havingfitz]

TT...it may not have been in a numbered order but within the TOAST category the comments towards cj were IMO less accusatory than towards }|{opa and Sundy. So for me it appeared you suspected them more at that time.

v/LA till Tuesday night.

[havingfitz]

Sundy and farside...what are your thoughts ons cj and TT? Apologies if you have already provided them...I'm still waking/catching up after my short v/LA.

[havingfitz]

Cj is a VI. Nothing so far has changed that view and people will use him as an easy lynch.

Are you basing the VI comment off this game? I don't see it. An ISO refresh on cj doesn't show anything IMO (or at least not in overwhelming quantity) to indicate VI. In fact...the closer ISO has me doubting my suspicions on him so

Unvote cj

.

I need to read a few more people (if not everyone) and see where I like my vote more.

[havingfitz]

Two weeks ago DRK mentioned providing comment/analysis of the game. That still hasn't happened. Instead...he hasn't posted since Sunday and his last three posts have been a BW vote with absolutley no reasoning provided on someone he had not expressed suspicions of previously (that I can find) and a few joke posts about the apple doing the thinking for her.

VOTE: DRK

I would vote TT if it came down to a deadline decision between him and a no lynch. I do suspect him (TT) and would be interested in seeing how he flipped but I'm in no rush to end the day despite the fact there isn't a lot of discussion going on. It's a coin toss for me TT but in all honesty...I don't have extremely strong town or scum reads on anyone (ie I don't know wtf is scum )

Also mod...in case there is a lynch before the weekend is over, I'll be v/LA May 2-4.

[havingfitz]

EBWOP:

It's a coin toss for me TT but in all honesty...

I don't have extremely strong town or scum reads on anyone (ie I don't know wtf is scum )

Should have read "It's a coin toss for me between DRK and TT but in all honesty..."

[havingfitz]

Mod...I'll be v/LA from Monday till Wednesday, 2-4 May.

[havingfitz]

Just realized I hadn't posted since my v/LA. Nothing to say atm. Will do a refresh and see if anything changes my opinion on DRK.

[havingfitz]

My internet service is down for an unknown amount of time. v/LA until I can post without going to local wifi spots.

[havingfitz]

I'm just ready for a flip. I've let this game get a bit behind me and I'm having a hard time keeping my interest level up for it. At one time or another I have suspected, or still do, each of the players with the leading wagons. I won't hammer unless it came down to that vs a no lynch...but I can wait a few days for people to post a bit more (as unlikely as that may be).

[havingfitz]

I'm just ready for a flip.

snip

I won't hammer unless it came down to that vs a no lynch...but I can wait a few days for people to post a bit more (as unlikely as that may be).

So you will hammer CDB to avoid a deadline no lynch?

I would hammer DRK, CDB, or TT to avoid a no lynch.

Normally if I have a strong feeling that someone is town I won't vote them even if it is to avoid a no lynch but that is not the case with any of the three above. Actually, I don't have good feels towards anyone in this game. I think it's a case of not seeing the trees for the forest. The only person I would not vote ATT is you {Magua} because I think you have made some good posts and because I have never been in a game where a scum slot exchanged hands 3 or more times.

Mod...can we get an offical VC and a specific time on the deadline?

[havingfitz]

Fitz: Can you please do me a favor. Give me a scum list with reasoning. Also explain to me how is it that the one person you have a town read on is a slot that has been replaced 4 times now = town. I know a game I had 3 people replace a slot and that slot was scum. Replacements = quantity is null at best.

I know you asked politely but I'd rather not. If I did I would just be ISOing myself to reiterate points I have already made on the players I have suspected. Which you can do as easily as I can. My rationale on the replacement thing is weak but in the absence of any significvant suspicions...the replacement thing tends to tip a player slot more and more towardxs town the more it's been replaced. No problem with anyone not agreeing with this train of thought but I'm onboard with it. This opinion is compounded by the fact I do not recall anything scummy from the pre-ZF players. ZF I had some doubts about but 3/4s of the slot's players have been ok for me. "Replacements = quantity?"

Not interested in an extension.

This game is dragging as it is and I think a flip would do it some good.

@farside....you are on CDB and s/he looks like they are going to be the lynch. Why do you want an extension? Especially with this game dragging so much and the replacements seemingly having caught up. Should they be the ones looking for an extension?

PS mod...I'm no longer v/LA and thanks for the subtle FYI on the vote countdown.

I had not noticed it was linked to the deadline date.

[havingfitz]

If no one beats me to it I will hammer CDB before the deadline in 6 hours...just in case the full amount of time allows CDB to make any other comment.

Also

FoS Sundy

for nothing.

[havingfitz]

This is one of the worst games I have played in with regards to formulating suspicions. Very frustrating. I do not have any clear frontrunners for scum or town in my mind. Just when I begin to think one person is scummy I change my mind or someone else makes my radar go off. I have no excuses for not providing any concrete suspicions....if CDB does flip town it will of course point to 1-3 people on his wagon as scum...but even with that in mind, I would still be flipping a coin to choose between the people on the wagon aside from me (pending my vote). uuuuuuuuugh.

So CDB...you don't think either of the other frontrunning wagons are scum? Why vote for one of them then? Just to save yourself?

I must say...early afternoon EST deadlines suck. A nice 10pm EST deadline would have probably provided more opportunity for wagon shifting.

[havingfitz]

No response to your posts CDB. My suspicions are vague and gut based. I wish I did have a stronger feel towards someone with solid reasoning.

Vote Toast

for the moment.

[havingfitz]

Four minutes...doesn't matter whether I hammer or CDB does.

[havingfitz]

So I assume you are town then./?/...

I hope there is town that has a better clue than I do and can convince their fellow town to follow them...somewhere.

Pre-edit...the link was less than a minute remaining.

[havingfitz]

Oh...has the next day started?

[havingfitz]

I think we need to focus on one of these three: ToastyToast, DeathRowKitty, farside22.

[havingfitz]

I really don't find anyone town. And I guess since (not counting myself) there are three people still alive who were on the mislynch and three who were off it...the odds are about the same either way. Especially considering I would not think both remaining scum (assuming two left) would have been on the lynch.

I was previewing my hammer when I saw CDB had already self hammered.

[havingfitz]

So your only analysis day 2 vote count and not the end of day 1 vote count because.......????

This is funny. I actually didn't look at any previous votes because I forgot there had been a previous mislynch. RL and lack of interest/reads has made this game a bit more difficult for me to get in whatever groove I'm usually capable of getting into. My mini VCA based on yesterday's mislynch was just a quick thought based on trying to get things moving today. A quick look at the D1 vote I neglected shows two of my D2 vote candidates who were on the D1 mislynch as well (farside and TT). In all fairness I would have been on both as well if CDB hadn't beat me to my no-lynch avoidance post. While their presence on the D2 vote is not necessarily a 100% indictment of them...I think being on both is certainly cause for attention. I need to do a reread.

@}|{opa...could you explain your reads a bit on why you have farside and TT as innocents? Especially given that they have been on both mislynches.

@Sundy...I can understand how my lack of reads or gut feels towards anyone in particular can be viewed with suspicion. To me it would look like someone just trying to keep their options open. The one player I did have a town inclination towards was unfortunately Magua so it's back to the drawing board for me. I will say that when I am town I am naturally suspicious/defensive towards people who try to make a case on me. So in the middle of all my uncertainty you are moving a bit higher on my list.

[havingfitz]

Fitz: Do you typically look at the wagon of a player that flipped town to find scum?

Yes. I usually assume there is scum on town wagons. It's not always that way but more often than not it is. Especially when it happens more than once in a game. You don't?

[havingfitz]

Fitz: Do you typically look at the wagon of a player that flipped town to find scum?

Yes. I usually assume there is scum on town wagons. It's not always that way but more often than not it is. Especially when it happens more than once in a game. You don't?

Would you care to explain why in this game where you were town you did not then?

Well, that's one down. Time for number two.

vote: andrew94

Seriously...after all the D1 interaction between a94 and Zyrco you come into D2 raring to lynch a94? I know a94 was on your list of suspects yesterdays (though I couldn't find the reasons why) but I find it very hard to believe scum would be so quick to bus their RB. Which is why I am willing to give you a pass today as well.

While I would be surprised if there wasn't scum on the tail end of Zyrco's wagon, I really think we are best served focusing off his wagon. I maintain my D1 suspicions towards tylerj (for which I have given my reasons) and Nacho's play in that slot has not changed my mind. Of the three players not on the lynch yesterday my top suspect is....

VOTE: Nacho

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

vote: havingfitz

In case you missed it. It's called lynching all liars.

Ummm...what is there to explain? The quote you have above is consistgent with my response to you. This is the worst example (ie it's not even an example) of a lie I have ever seen. I say above that I

usually

believe there is scum on town wagons and then you provide an example of me voting for someone

who was on

a D1 mislynch. WTF? How is that a lie?

As for the meta description you provided...I would say that is accurate. I tend to lock in on my main suspects and will typically only move my vote if I'm alone in my suspicions and one of my other suspects has a wagon going or possibly to avoid a no-lynch. The fact I don't have any frontrunners in this game is more a case of everyone being somewhat level in my suspicions. Your extremely misplaced and bad effort to push a LAL case on me is helping me sort the field a bit though.

[havingfitz]

Two fitz quotes made in short succession that are worth looking at:

Your extremely misplaced and bad effort to push a LAL case on me is helping me sort the field a bit though.

I am naturally suspicious/defensive towards people who try to make a case on me. So in the middle of all my uncertainty you are moving a bit higher on my list.

Why are these worth looking at? I'm saying that the two of you pointing suspicion towards me is making me suspicious of you. Question for you Sundy...in games where you are town...do you dismiss when people attempt to make cases against you as being misguided town or in the back of your mind do you leave open the possibility that they could be scum looking to get a mislynch wagon going?

Neither your poor case on me or farside's ridiculous example of a lie on their own warrant a vote in return by me (though pending farside's response her's is close to vote-worthy) but they are definitely going to make me take a closer look at both of you.

[havingfitz]

@TT. What? Why do you say Sundy sounds like an easy lynch?

And when you say "having fitz attacking farside?"...to what do you refer? Do you mean me pointing out that farside's LAL case is baseless

[havingfitz]

Sundy...there was similar phrasing because you have both put votes on me. You didn't answer why they were worth looking at. Because they were similar? Some other reason? What was your point in pointing them out?

And just because I can understand how someone can think something doesn't mean I have to agree with it. When I am town I tend to think any case on me is poor.

[havingfitz]

@farside...you have two posts online since my LAL response to you and no comment in here? What's up?

[havingfitz]

And yeah I get that when you're town you're not going to agree with a case on you. That doesn't mean you can't have town reads on the people making the case against you. People can make mistakes and still seem townie.

I don't have town reads towards either of you. Before or after today's posts.

[havingfitz]

Fitz: The point is in the game I linked you noted that scum tend to go on town wagons' but attacked a player that was not on the wagon at the time you had a scum read on.
This game your scum read is all null

That is a huge difference. I see you pretty much ignored everything I wrote and snipped it down to one comment along with an almost OMGUS attitude.....so everyone that has attacked you is scum......oh wait except Yabba who did that day 1.

farside, the only point you made with your accusations towards me were that I was lying. You quoted me saying this:

I usually assume there is scum on town wagons. It's not always that way but more often than not it is. Especially when it happens more than once in a game. You don't?

...to which all you responded with was this:

Would you care to explain why in this game where you were town you did not then?

...followed by an accusation of me lying and a vote on me.

That is not the case. I said I tend to believe scum will usually be found on mislynches and then you link to a game where I vote for someone who was on the only mislynch in the game. So WTF are you trying to accuse me of? How am I lying? Tell me where I lied. And to to compare what happens in two completely different games with a completely different player set (other than myself and Sundy) and make an accusation of lying based on actions or opinions which have been quantified by 'typically' and 'usually' is ridiculous and extremely scummy. It is reaching for a case in the worst way. If even one person in here thinks your accusation of me lying with regard to my 'usual' opinion that scum can be found on mislynches (which is by no means an earth shattering revelation) I would love to hear their thoughts on the matter.

Your accusation is crap and for you to continue to push it and concoct some sort of scenario around it where you think it applies is terrible.

You later go on to whinge about me having null reads. Newsflash...being suspicious of everyone is not a null read. And I am by no means going to apologize for not having any clear frontrunners for scum (no longer the case BTW) or town in a game that is dragging ass as bad as this one has. And then you have this pearl:

but instead focus's on just the wagon when in another game he was town I linked here,

he voted for someone he was suspicious of that was off the wagon.

This is a lie. In the game you link everyone to...I vote for Nacho. The wagon which Nacho was not was a scum wagon wagon. Nacho's player slot was on the Day 1 mislynch which is consistent with my feelings on the subject and not in agreement with your comments on it.

VOTE: farside22

In case you missed it. It's called lynching all liars.

[havingfitz]

Ah I missed the player in question flipped mafia. That was why you were off that wagon.

Oh...you were wrong you say? Why does your backpeddling not come with an unvote? What is your case on me now? Stating it would be nice.

Can you explain your lack of reads in this game and how it is you have no scum read on anyone and mostly vote either OMGUS votes or limp on wagon's already formed?

I have had reads towards some people and they have changed or not changed ass the game has progressed. I had a scum read on you most of D1 and the only reason I left you was because my vote on you was getting absolutley no support from others and my vote appeared to be worthless where it was at. I have expressed opinions/suspicions towards }|{opa and DRK. I expressed a town read on Magua's slot. I have not had a lack of reads in this game. My problem has been a lack of support for those I do suspect or not enough separation between my reads. Everyone has been lumped closely together. Looking back over my earlier read on you...looking at VCs and you recent effort to build a wagon on me based on your lie, not mine, has me comfortable with my vote back where it belongs. And none of my votes are OMGUS. Misreps are scummy too.

[havingfitz]

Fitz:
Did this post I make just get put on ignore by you post 699
That is why I did not unvote.

No... saw it. What's your point? Your vote on me was based on your false accusation that I had lied. I can give plenty of examples where I have expressed reads on others. It's a problem of too many to choose from. Did you not happen to see where I addressed your questions regarding my reads? Here's a refresher since you seemd to have ignored it:

I have had reads towards some people and they have changed or not changed as the game has progressed. I had a scum read on you most of D1 and the only reason I left you was because my vote on you was getting absolutley no support from others and my vote appeared to be worthless where it was at. I have expressed opinions/suspicions towards }|{opa and DRK. I expressed a town read on Magua's slot. I have not had a lack of reads in this game. My problem has been a lack of support for those I do suspect or not enough separation between my reads. Everyone has been lumped closely together. Looking back over my earlier read on you...looking at VCs and you recent effort to build a wagon on me based on your lie, not mine, has me comfortable with my vote back where it belongs. And none of my votes are OMGUS. Misreps are scummy too.

---

So you give up pushing wagon's based on what others feel, you still think I'm scummy even though I had a town read on DRK and yet you didn't put it together and instead back off and go nowhere.
Your reasoning for why DRK and Jora scummy is as allusive as my 3 year's verbal skills.

And a nice misrep. I don't vote based on what other people think. But I'm also not bothered switching from my top suspect who is garnering absolutely no other support to someone else who I at least have a modicum of suspicion towards. And unless your 3 yr old is a child prodigy (doubtful) I'll note your ad-hom on my earlier suspicions towards }|{opa and/or DRK. Ad-homs are scummy because they are not based on what is actually taking place in a game {like your lie...errrrrrr, backpedaled oversight] and only serve as a baseless attempt to undermine the play of a player in the eyes of others.

[havingfitz]

Everything is a to you misrep?

Could you solve this word jumble. Is there a question or an accusation in there somewhere?

Seriously

anything anyone has said is either scummy

(because how dare someone accurately describe your game thus far) or

everything I stated is a misrep.

The items in bold are misreps.

Well guess what bub, ZF thought the same fucking thing day 1 I had and he was town.

Honey...what did ZF think? And what does the fact he was town matter? Town can be wrong. I'm proof of that in all but three of the games I have played here. How does the fact I never voted him and he never voted me factor into your "and he was town" position? Do you recall the fact you voted him? He was town...that was scummy of you.

Your reason's for find DRK and Jora scummy is baseless.
Your case is what again?

You can ISO me and find my case on both of them. Do you want to justify all of your previous votes as well? You've voted almost everyone in the game at one point or another so you don't appear to have any firmer reads on people than I do. And I'm not voting either of them at the moment so what is your point? You're just practicing your typing skills...aren't you.

Also reading your post above means hey I don't have to explain my vote to anyone because I find everyone suspicious is a weak attempt to allow you to vote anyone for any reason.

I explain every vote I make which is more than most people can say. Ex...using a false pretense to vote someone and then leaving the vote after the false pretense is revealed.

[havingfitz]

TT...I've missed the part where someone shot you. Could you post a link or something that clarifies what you are talking about?

farside...I'm not really in the mood to continue this debate and propagate a wall post war. If there was something in your wall post above that you wanted me to respond to feel free to make a more succinct post and I will consider it. Others can weigh in if they see fit and I'll be happy to discuss further with them. Not so much with you as I think you are scum.

[havingfitz]

jora is suggesting that Magua's slot protected me the night we had no kill, which is why he was strongly against my lynch

Uhhh...no. I haven't looked over all of ZF's D2 posts yet but it didn't take me long to get to this one:

I am very pro-TT lynch. He has few reasons for his votes, they're flakey, and he's spent a great deal defending himself as opposed to actually building cases (or even worse, turning people's suspicions of him into cases, i.e. yabba). I'd say I'm 65% certain he's scum.

I'd say that rules you and Sundy out ass potential protects from ZF on N1.

[havingfitz]

ass=as. Also...inadvertantly left out the part of ZF's post (ISO 20 iirc) where he says Sundy is his #2 suspect.

[havingfitz]

Upon further review of posts by ZF and Magua after N1 I have to think if the N1 kill was prevented by the Doc...that it was on either farside or myself. I don't think it would be me...so that leaves farside. While Magua was a fan of TT, ZF had him [TT] as his #1 suspect and even put a vote on him towards the end of D1. While both ZF and Magua both list me as town....Magua lists farside at the top of his town list and states there is no way (or something similar) he will vote farside. Therefore, I think if there was a Doc protect resulting in no N1 NK...that the protect would have been on farside. As much as it pains me....

UNVOTE: farside. Vote TBD.

[havingfitz]

fitz: I'm not being insulting when I ask this, but are you reading the game? I pointed out ZF's post myself just 2 pages ago.

I am reading the game. The reading is coming over such an expanded length of RL time that I may be missing some connections between items or forgetting some things that were said. When you say you commented on a ZF do you mean this past Friday or 2 days of game time? Can you link to the post to which you refer?

Also...since I am taking a step back from my suspicions on you...I need to figure out who my next votee will be. I think the two mislynch wagons shine a little POE light on TT. I also want to take a closer look at yabbaguy's slot.

@farside...any suspicions I have expressed towards }|{opa and DRK are still there to be found in print (most likely in the post's where I voted them). I've backed off a bit on my }|{opa suspicions since D1 but I would say nothing has changed for me regarding DRK. If I don't end up putting my vote on her it will only be because I determine someone else is more suspect.

pre-view edit...more good stuff there from DRK.

[havingfitz]

}|{opa...are you now saying you think I am Mafia?

farside...what do you want me to talk about regarding }|{opa? It was D1 suspicions that have waned a bit. I'm not avoiding it...I'm just not sure why I should go to the trouble to explaining cases I made (and posted) on D1 and D2. For me to rehash what I was thinking I would simply be doing the same thing you could do and be looking back at my ISO. This is D3 and I have not focused on }|{opa since D1. Iirc my focus on DRK has been mostly for her extreme lack of posting/content. I prefer not to suspect/vote people for that but after a point I can't help but think scum could just be laying low...out of sight out of mind.

[havingfitz]

What? No.

Oh. That's how I interpreted this:

IMO Fitz-mafia simply not interested in killing Farside-town. Because he kind of hiding behind this Fitz vs Farside debate.

[havingfitz]

Right now for me my scum gut/reads are like this.

farside - town due to NK/protect speculation

Everyone else some degree of scum...in this loose order: (Sundy=TT)>DRK>}|{opa

I need to read TT again and see if my TT VCA outweighs my Sundy gut feel.

[havingfitz]

farside...Sundy has been dropping my name this entire game. I think today's vote is his first but I've definitely been a subtle target for him. He's prbably been laying the groundwork for his current vote.

[havingfitz]

Agreed on the prods.

Thanks a lot for replacing in Quilford

DRK's gameplay is staying consistent as well

[havingfitz]

In the mean time, havingfitz, have you re-examined my slot yet?

Not yet. If I put a vote on you over sundy it will probably be based primarily on VCA. If I put one on Sundy it will be based on gut and him pushing a case on town....which is scummy.

[havingfitz]

Prod received. I would want to hear from the new replacements of Yabba/DRK to think what they think of the game. IMO it's not going anywhere, and it hasn't been for awhile. There's not too much that's new to respond to.

Fitz's case on me is still only that I'm pushing a case on "town," which is contingent on him being town...a pretty strong contingent.

Farside might be protecting him, but then again she might not. I am starting to think moreso that she's town because she's posting on and on no matter what happens, although she STILL I think could be confident & evil.

Either way, mostly want to lynch Fitz or one of the replacements today. Town-reads on Jora/Toast remain.

Sundy...I don't have any rock solid suspects. Your continually dropping my name throughout the entire game (without ever taking any action) has registered in my mind every time you have done it. The fact I know my alignment makes your continued interest in me (and subsequent vote) suspicious.

Who do you think Magua's slot protected N1?
And why have you dropped your suspicions towards DRK?

Hokay. Two replacements since I read through the thread, and both turn up town. Guess it gives us a fresh read. Kind of surprised by Magua's flip tbqh.

Anyway there is someone who is sticking out like a sore thumb on a re-read (well, he has stood out before). He kind of reminds me of Pierce from Community in his demeanor.

When asked to give a scum list by Farside, he replies "I know you asked politely but I'd rather not. If I did I would just be ISOing myself to reiterate points I have already made on the players I have suspected." Like he's not reacting to the game as more information comes, but gleaning his cases from previous stances. He's not really looking for more information. In the midst of general calls for extension, he says he doesn't want one (though it's hard to hold that against him considering NS' decision).

After CDB gave a bunch of good flash reads, he says: "No response to your posts CDB. My suspicions are vague and gut based. I wish I did have a stronger feel towards someone with solid reasoning." But he's expressed suspicions before in the game, now he just seems to be to clenching his teeth and holding out.

vote: Havingfitz

Regarding my response to farside's request...I often point people to my ISO for answers. I don't have time or interest to do other people's work. My vote att was on DRK with my reasoning. And I am continually looking for information. For you to presume I am not is an assumption/accusation on your part that supports your case on me, but it is not accurate. For one thing, it's hard to react to new information when people are not giving you a lot of new information to react to. Secondly....I have been taking in new info when it has been available. Ex. this day's case/suspicions towards farside for her admittedly erroneous accusation towards me and my subsequent "reaction" to my doc N1 protect assumption. So I would disagree strongly with this point of your case on me.

As for your quote above regarding a post towards CDB...what does me having

"expressed suspicions before in the game"

have to do with the quote above? CDB had asked me if I wanted to comment on some statement (not questions) she had posted earlier in the day and I did not have any comment. So I changed my mind at one point on cj after reading his/her ISO. I was not convinced cj was scum but I was also not convinced enough that she/he was town that I would allow a no lynch. As it turns out I didn't need to hammer cj/CDB but in all honesty I would have if the self hammer hadn't happened.

tl:dr;

I don't see where any of the points Sundy is bringing up above are scummy. The first suspicion is not accurate and a misrep considering I am taking new information into account. The second point is meh...no big deal.

[havingfitz]

I'm too, but rather waiting for replacements to cast their votes so we could get Sundy lunched.
Waiting doesn't make any sense, because I suspect farside to be town, so if we are wrong and Sundy is town too -

he would be lynched anyways

.

}|{opa....who would be lynched anyways?

Also...welcome izak....how's the reading going????????????????

And we still need one more replacement?

[havingfitz]

Getting on wife your life? UNSAT

[havingfitz]

EBWOP....fruedian slip. 'wife' should be 'with'.

[havingfitz]

farside...I haven't felt like I have a real frontrunner case on anyone in this game. The few town reads I

have

had, or leaned towards, have been eliminated. The only reason I am not pressing the suspicions I had towards you earlier is NK/protect speculation. Basically what I'm saying is you could have an issue equally with any of my cases (except IMO yours which I am now dismissing).

[havingfitz]

BTW...I'm favoring Sundy at the moment but I don't want to put him at L-1 [to avoid a possible early hammer or self hammer] until the replacements have had their chance to post comments.

[havingfitz]

I'm up to date, mostly waiting for MS.

Congratulations....could you give some sort of summary of your findings? Perhaps a few main suspects? Or dare I say....a vote?

[havingfitz]

I really don't like havingfitz.

Sundy...Got Claim?

[havingfitz]

As much as I was tempted to vote him for his pre and post-Lynch and NK comments, unless izakthe goomba is a superbusser I do not think he is scum. His player slot has had a vote on scum at the end of every day.

I am inclined to think }|{opa is town as well based on being an early proponent of Sundy's lynch.

FMPOV, that leaves TT and MS as candidates.

I'm opting for MS on the basis (ATM) of TT's support of the cj lynch.

VOTE: Midnight's Sorrow

[havingfitz]

VT

[havingfitz]

in other words,

someone who has claimed VT is lying.

thats helpful. This also suggests that the person remaining is godfather.

Well no shit.

And does it matter whether there is a potential godfather or not? We're down to one scum (unless someone has another theory) and if we have no investigative roles in the game, a GF isn't any different than a standard goon.

[havingfitz]

I'm fine with Toast as long as MS is next on the block. With us being down to the last 5 players I don't have a problem lining up lynches (if it comes to a Day 5). I don't think I could be convinced att to go after either izak or }|{opa based on their voting throughout the game. If either of them do turn out to be scum then their bussing did the trick.

MS...could you restate your case on }|{opa? (I don't recall what it is and I don't feel like closing my response out to go look for it)
izak...who were you suspecting again and why? Also..I got your sarcasm...facepalm still accepted

[havingfitz]

So I give a reason for thinking }|{opa is likely to be town and that is dull.
You don't like someone's attitude and so they must be scum. I assume your attitude based suspicion is less dull than mine because your's leaves so much to our imagination?

It's the only tangible reason att.

[havingfitz]

TT - izak read is based on vote count analysis.

How do these comments, "Scum generally bus their buddies at least once, which means I am one to believe that scum in goomba/myself/fitz. I also feel like scum would have been on the sundy wagon if they felt their was enough suspicion away from them." lead you to include me in your scum pool?

Can you elaborate on this comment, "havingfitz trying to turn town on farside has an odd motivation behind it. With the no kill, its possible scum thought they had found serial killer, or wanted a chance to shoot at her (so played the doctor)."

Who is your top suspect?

[havingfitz]

So your totally going to bypass the whole 'bussing' thing aren't you?

Good to know.

I assumed it was a rhetorical question. Are you saying that was a serious question?
If you want me to answer pointless questions let me know.

[havingfitz]

Toast has been avoiding this thread. No post since Monday in here. Posting elsewhere onsite Wednesday and Tuesday.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Toast

[havingfitz]

^Never a good reason to hammer in a situation like this. I don't suggest doing it.

Also- fitz; why you ignore me?

I didn't realize I was ignoring you.

@TT...in case you do flip town, who are your top two suspects?

[havingfitz]

I have done it before and it (LYLO) sucks. I think I'm leaning towards MS still (primarily based on VCA) but I need to look you both over again. Luckily there is no rush.

[havingfitz]

Well...we've all made our "LYLO sucks" post so now it's time to figure out what we are going to do. I ISO'd MS yesterday and got the feeling he was just posting to post. Hopefully my impending ISO on izak will not result in the same opinion. I need to ISO MS again as well and make/share notes. It's been a busy RL week so I haven't spent the time I'd like on this game.

On that note...

mod, I will be v/LA until the weekend

. I'm travelling today and I'm not sure how much interenet access (or time) I will have to post. I think I will be able to but I can't be sure at this time.

[havingfitz]

@ izak...I am not a fan of my play in this game either. I have not had strong reads throughout most of the game and the reads I have now are based on VCA. On a mini vacation ATM so time is limited. Still looking you and MS over but from memory of yesterday I'm still leaning towards MS. I'm not sure he has provided any content of value in the game since he entered his slots voting records is more suspect IMO than yours.

Here is a link to my games - http://mafiascum.net/forum/search.php?a ... &sr=topics

The only ones where I was mafia are:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=12561
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=14272

[havingfitz]

Sorry guys...in addition to my current v/LA I have been without internet access most of today. I'll definitely be providing content posts this weekend.

[havingfitz]

*twiddles thumbs*

Back from vacation. Back to reliable internet access.

What's the rush izak? Don't we have another ~2 weeks to decide who we want to lynch? With all the time you apparently have you haven't exactly spent the last few days unveiling a masterful analysis of MS and I. Why don't you quit complaining about our participation levels (which we have explained) and provide some helpful content of your own?

Something I noticed from those is that fitz tends to post

way

less when he's scum. LURKERSCUM BASTARD!

But considering he has well over 100 posts in this game... well, maybe not. It could be a ploy to make him look townier, or the change could be entirely subconscious. I'm not ruling anything out.

It's been awhile since I have been scum so I don't recall what my posting levels were in those games. RL does influence posting ability though and who's to say what I had going on 8 months or 15 months ago (or whenever my scum games took place). You've basically just accused me of lurking as scum (not sure I agree) and pointing out my high post count in this game. So WTH are you trying to get at?

@fitz

What was the point of that fight with farside? She was

easily

my biggest town read by the time I got there. How could you really think she was scummy? Even more so now she's flipped, it makes you look really bad to me.

If you think farside is a good player you should believe she has the ability to appear town when she is not town. As I do not know who is scum and who is town, certain things (which I am certain I pointed out during my exchange with farside) made her suspicious IMO. What your opinion of her is is not of concern to me. And the fact that she has flipped town matters how? I had backed off her prior to her being NK'd because I was of the opinion she was the likely Doc protect the night we did not have a NK. Ie. once certain game events pointed to the likihood of her being town, I no longer suspected her.

@MS

How about some content now? Seriously, at least fitz said who he's "leaning towards". You have posted once this day phase, giving us nothing useful.

I'm tempted to suggest you're lurking,

and hoping one of us will slap an idiotic vote on the other for some reason. Who. Do. You. Think. Is. Scum?

(I bolded the sentence above) Really? You're tempted? I have the 2nd most posts in the game and I'm lurking but you're only "tempted" to think that of MS.

As I said last night...I'll get my opinions on each of you posted this weekend.

[havingfitz]

Still reading through the game.

Observation for the other townie still alive...it appears I am the top candidate for both of you. If I was scum...who would I have been most likely to NK? }|{opa was deadset on MS being today's lynch (as I had been as well) whereas izak had listed me just behind Sundy among his suspicions and MS and I had gone back and forth a bit. I don't recall MS really giving a list of suspects yesterday but I think it's safe to say among the post-lynch four remaining, I was probably his top suspect. }|{opa on the otherhand had expressed no recent suspicions towards me. Killing }|{opa would have been the worst thing for me to do as scum. Why would I have taken the risk of getting rid of the player that suspected me the least and have to go up against the two who appeared to be most inclined to vote me? So that I could make this observation? If I was going to try and set up N4 NK speculation I would much rather do it with my top suspecter (izak) being the dead person (ie He was killed to set me up) than to get rid of ther person who suspected me the least (Ie. there's no way I would have killed him). For that matter...why would I have nk'd farside ass well? I had changed my read on her to town and she had Sundy and Yabba (MS) as her top two scum reads.

Questions to both of you since you are both claiming to be town.

Why do you think you weren't killed last night?
Who had the most to gain from }|{opa and farside's NKs?

[havingfitz]

EBWOP:

"For that matter...why would I have nk'd farside ass well?"

should read,

For that matter...why would I have nk'd farside as well?

Damned double esses.

[havingfitz]

ISO on yabba/Q/MS slot:

yabba is posting decent content, which explains why I never put a vote on him. That plus the fact I had stronger suspicions towards others. I hate D1s.
ISO 29 yabba says "Sundy's one of those you just say "ah, yeah, seems Town" and just never bat an eye at. I went through the ISO and couldn't find as great an extent of uselessness from Sundy as I've found from Toasty."

All his D1 votes/suspicions are on townies (now confirmed ones + me). He spends all of D2 on TT.

Questions wagon on cj (started by me) and hates quick votes by DRK and TT on the cj wagon (as most of the players seem to).

ISO 35 he says, "@Sundy: Why are you still sitting on your ass? What's prohibiting you from making a vote?" which is followed 7 posts later by a Sundy vote on Zerofang (who yabba had been criticizing recently.

ISO 41...he says Sundy and TT could be buddys. Can't see it as too much of a negative to link (now confirmed) scum with a (now confirmed) townie.

ISO 50 = yabba requests replacement due to busy RL. Requests replacement in one other game (which he turns out to be town in).

I don't put any suspicions on yabba for replacing out. All his suspicions are on townies and the few times he mentions Sundy are not in any way incrimating.

Q ISO

....nothing said in 2 posts. Not sure why he replaced in. He stayed active in games where he flipped town/werewolf/town mason/TBD.

Null read on q's participation.

MS ISO

....18 posts.
ISO 2 - D3, No suspicions of note towards me and farside. Has this to say about Sundy, "-Sundry is lurky(harhar), but when he comes back into the game, posts pretty well- I'm null leaning scum right now on him."

ISO 3 - D4, He suspects }|{opa and TT but provides no real reasoning. Votes }|{opa.

Has a few posts in error. Makes several posts explaining his absences and defending against }|{opa's and my reads on him as scum.

Also of note...he has posted several times in other threads since stating he has yet to really read this game and that he needs to do a re-read.

Conclusion...I did not like MS's attempt to paint my ignoring of his bussing question (which I deemed as rhetorical and useless) as scummy. On that note...of course, bussing is always an option. His predecessors did not jump out at me as scummy. Of the three players in that slot...MS has given me most cause to suspect the slot.

---

ISO on Sundy...

ISO 4 - He says "I think DRK's analysis of Toast is wrong in #71" and places an FOS on me.

ISO 7,8,9 - He spends questioning me about my vote on }|{opa despite having made several observations on DRK. (Would he understand a vote on DRK better?)

ISO 18 - Says, "@Yabba: Why praytell is dodging questions not a scum tell?" I have no read on this.

ISO 19 - Calls Jakalope's vote on Yabba weird. Votes ZeroFang.

ISO 21 - Questions Zerofang about a perceived town read on me. (Not sure scum would raise questions about a town read from a townie on their scum partner...translation=I don't think they would which would coincide with the fact I am not)

ISO 22 - Gives his view on several players but does not mention DRK or yabba Edit...he does question me on the fact he thought my arguements on DRK were more persuasive then my arguments on }|{opa...who I had voted earlier. Not sure he would try to persuade anyone (or me) to resconsider why I had voted }|{opa (a townie) instead of DRK. I do not think scum would push someone from a vote on town to their partner. Ie..I think this supports a case for DRK not being Sundy's partner.

ISO 34 - Quotes yabba and points out the fact that yabba is suspicious of TT and his 64 posts which seems odd given that yabba has only 42 posts. Doesn't follow this up with any hint of suspicion towards yabba. Proceeds to vote DRK.

ISO 35 - Calls DRK out on ignoring the pressure on him (or her?).

ISO 38 - He makes a valiant attempt to present a case on me and places a vote on me.

ISO 39 - Questions }|{opa regarding his [}|{opa's] vote on yabba. Adds a few quotes by me to ~support his vote on me.

ISO 40-43 -Spent in an exchange withg me/supporting his case on me.

ISO 45 - Self hammers.

In my defense...Sundy dedicated a large portion of D3 trying to build a wagon on me. This is on the heels of him having mentioned suspicions towards me throughout a large portion of the game. He also appears to be up for a DRK lynch as evidenced by him trying to persuade me (and perhaps others?) that my case on }|{opa was not as powerful as my suspicions towards DRK. This and the fact he had his vote on DRK for much of D2.

He barely ever mentions Yabba. Conclusion: I think Sundy's ISO supports the yabba/Q/MS slot as scum.

---

ISO on DRK/izak slot

...
Starts D1 pushing a wagon on Sundy.
ISO 9 - DRK calls out ani for "defending" Sundy. (Would scum call out someone for defending their [DRK's] scumbuddy? I think not.

ISO 12 - Makes a case on }|{opa and unvotes Sundy while voting }|{opa.

ISO 21 - Unvotes }|{opa and votes star(town).

ISO 27 - Places an admitted gut vote down on yabba.

ISO 28 - States s/he hass determined that Sundy and bv310 are scum and votes for Sundy. (Bussing? Perhaps it is MS but I'm not convinced). Vote remains on Sundy the rest of the day.

No real posts worth mentioning the rest of the game. No references to Sundy other than to comment on a gender question.


Conclusion...I really didn't care for DRK's game. Lot's of lurking and questionable votes. With the hindsight of most of the players' flips however I am inclined to think DRK is not paired with Sundy.

ISO on izak

...

ISO 3 - farside and I

could

be town on town.

ISO 5 - States strong feeling that scum could be yabba, TT or }|{opa.

ISO 6 - TT looking really scummy and DRK hass not done him [izak] any favors. This rings a bit scummy to me as distancing from one's predecessor.

ISO 9 - More DRK distancing.

ISO 11 - Requests decent case link for Sundy.

ISO 13 - Says,

"Sundy looks bad, the lurking and stuff, and he really hasn't contributed to the game in any helpful manner. I'd be up for lynching him if it comes to it."
"I really don't like havingfitz. Not in the same way as I think Sundy is scum, but more that many of the things he's said look like they could be from a scum mindset. It seems to me that he's saying a lot of things that I might say, if I were scum. It might mean nothing, but I've got a bad feeling about him."
"Sundy is the biggest scum here."
"VOTE: Sundy"

This puts Sundy at L-1 when he could have easily put me at L-2 (which would have had me in a tie with the Sundy wagon). Why put your partner on the brink of a lynch if you don't have to? If Sundy had avoided the D3 lynch yesterday would have been LYLO. The fact izak did not have a chance to confer with Sundy during the night (due to replacing in the same day Sundy died) makes me think this strong a bus from a ~newer player is unlikely.

ISO 20 - D4 begins and izak laments farside's NK. I hate when people do that.

ISO 27 - States belief that TT is Sundy's partner.

Post 29 - Tells MS that he [izak] does not have a town read on me.

Several posts with lots of drama and angst about hammering TT. Then hammers TT.

D5 - suspects both MS and I but appears to suspect me more.

Conclusion...I don't care for izak's posting either. Lamenting NK's, regretting that he has to hammer toast. No real suspicions provided towards toast that I can see. I really do not like izak's posts. Hammering just to keep the game going, etc. I really do not like this comment, "We're either about to win or go to LyLo, so see you all in the plausible tomorrow."

2izak - What made you so sure you would make it to tomorrow?

tl:dr:

I think both the izak and MS player slots deserve strong consideration as scum. I view comments made by both player slots to be fairly close in terms of suspicion. I think the balance is tipped (not as significantly as I would like) in one direction though when I look at Sundy's ISO, voting patterns, and NK speculation. I'll expand on the votes and NK's in a later post. Right now I maintain my suspicion that MS is the final scum. I'll post voting and NK thoughts in the next day or two and will wait until the two of you have had a chance to do decent assessments before I vote. If I was voting now though it would be on MS.

[havingfitz]

MS is three hours away from a prod

and has made several posts onsite since his last one in here.

If you turn out to be town MS you'll be high up on my list of people I hope I'm not town with in the future. WTF?

[havingfitz]

Kudos for the longest post I've ever seen, fitz.

What made you so sure you would make it to tomorrow?

I wasn't sure. However, I thought I was a pretty unlikely NK target. Look at the fact that the two of you are considering me as scum. Would you be so questioning of Jora? No? So Jora was the better NK, no matter which of you is scum.

If you were female I might have put that first comment in my sig block.

Did you have any comments on my ISOs? Defense of yourself? Agreement with any of the observations towards MS or Sundy?

Are you doing anything substantial in terms of scum hunting at the moment?

If }|{opa had made the same comment you had I would have questioned him on it as well.

How can you say }|{opa would have been the better NK if I was scum? You're saying I would get rid of someone who shared my suspicions of MS and had not made any sign recently (iirc) of suspecting me, and leave you (who had clearly stated your suspicions of me) and MS (who I think at least had exhibited some level of suspicion towards me) to go into LYLO with?

Since you had such a town read on }|{opa and farside...what is your take on their final reads on people?

[havingfitz]

Thanks for making an appearance. Too bad you didn't have anything to add to the conversation. It's like you're afraid to provide any content in this game. Or can't be bothered to.

Feel free to actually debate any of my comments or even better, provide some of your own.

[havingfitz]

I'm ...not actually supposed to add to the conversation.

Like ^ ?

I was responding to MS for anyone who may actually be confused on my response.

---

OK...actions speak louder than words. While I would say the things DRK/izak have said are more suspect that what yabba/Q/MS have said, when I look at the interactions between Sundy and DRK/izak I don't get teh sense that they are partners (even considering the possibility of bussing). Sundy made efforts to push suspicions towards DRK when there was no need to and they both at one point or another were voting each other.

I would also point out to the other townie how on D3 Sundy put a vote on me after he had received two votes himself but ignored the chance to move over to a yabba wagon. Why start a wagon on your partner when you can bring another wagon to the same level as you are at (L-2). On the other hand, there is very limited interaction between Sundy and yabba/Q/MS. They hardly mention each other and never come close to putting a vote on one another.

Prior to both of their NK's both farside and }|{opa were firmly in the yabba/MS is scum camp. You can call it WIFOM all you want but all indications point to MS being Sundy's partner.

As suspicious as I find the DRK/izak slot I can not get past the actions and events surrounding the yabba/MS slot. MS has continued to lie low and not put any effort into this game. The closest thing he has done that could be confused with scumhunting would be his poor accusation at me for ignoring his pointless bussing question. He has basically ignored this game.

If izak does wind up being the last scum then I have to tip my hat to him, begrudgingly, for coming into the game and jumping on your partner without any prior night chat and getting rid of yabba/MS's biggest detractors the last two evenings (ie setting him up for potential NK speculation).

I can't envision changing my opinion on MS so I'll leave it up to izak to decide the game...one way or the other.

VOTE: Midnight's Sorrow

[havingfitz]

Phew......LYLO sucks. It's always nerve-wracking to put the first vote down.

At least you are confirmed town now FMPOV and MS is confirmed scum. Don't try to read too much into things izak...everything points to MS. Vote MS so town can close this thing out.

Also...tl:dr means "too long, didn't read." It's a summary at the end of a long post that tells the unenthused reader what the jist of the long post was.

[havingfitz]

Confirmed to

you

. And I'm still not

absolutely

certain.

That's what I said (FMPOV=from my point of view).

What questions do you still have? If there is something you find suspect towards me ask away. If there is something that makes you think MS could be town...by all means share it because I didn't see anything (and he is now confirmed scum with your not hammering him yet).

[havingfitz]

Hey izak

MS=

[havingfitz]

I can't think of any good reasons for you to not hammer MS right now. In fact, I can think of one really good reason for you TO hammer him...he's scum. Wait, I came up with a second reason...you'll win. I've done all the work, laid out the cards for you, provided today's only analysis. Did I mention MS was scum?

Have you done any investigating of your own izak or are you just waiting for us to lay our observvations/cases in front of you? You are entitled to form your own opinion as well (as long as it's that MS is scum).

tl:dr;

FFS vote MS.

[havingfitz]

Very well, I'll let you do your thing.
Only trying to get to the win...
The town win.
Excuse my impatience..not frustrated at all (yet).

Maybe MS will make an appearance.
Should you have any questions feel free to ask.

[havingfitz]

BTW izak...MS's sig block says he is v/LA until Thursday. Emphasis on the LA. SO he may make an appearance but not sure how much time he will have to fabricate a case on me.

On that note...

mod, I will be v/LA from Wednesday afternoon until Saturday.

[havingfitz]

Here's a synopsis of what he is going to say: "Havingfitz is scum," followed by a vote on me.

Now that we have established you are town what's important is what

you

are going to say.

[havingfitz]

Just curious izak...are you doing anything yourself to try and come to a conclusion?

Have you ISO'd me and MS? If so...what did you find?

Have you looked at wagons, VCs, opinions of players you trust who are no longer with us?

Are you doing anything or are you just considering what I have presented and what MS might get around to doing?

The absence of MS is annoying but not any moreso than the perception I have of you sitting on your hands.

If you are building your case/s on one of us I apologize for the pressure but if you are just coasting then fock. Do something.

If you aren't going to come to your own decision I'll help you...MS is scum. Vote him for the town win.

Also...I only press this type of thing when I am town and know who the scum is.
See here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p2245399

Fortunately that game ended in a town win. Let's have the same thing in here. Mmmmm-kay?

[havingfitz]

I do still dislike the way you are consistently pressuring me to hammer, but I realise that this is, at best, only a bit scummy.

Well...I do apologize for the pressure on you Seriously.

But it's only because we have v/LA scum holding things up and (unless you are just really focking with me) we are one vote away from a town win. I'm off the computer starting tomorrow 1200 EST for the next two days so if you haven't won the game by then you'll have a good 36-48 hours of peace and quiet.

[havingfitz]

Wow..talk about lazy scum. I'm sure your scum mates are thrilled at your effort.

izak...I will be offline for 36-48 hours as of 6PM UK time this evening. If you get a chance before then to make your decision (ie VOTE MS) it would be great to know how this game ended before I leave.

Cheers

[havingfitz]

What is derogatory....lazy scum? That's a pretty accurate description. You have time to post three contentless posts but no time/interest in making any kind of effort. For shame. Sour puss??

Pathetic scum effort on your part. I'm sure your team is so happy you replaced in.

@izak...there's the MS reply you were waiting for. I can't believe it isn't even as well thought out as I had guessed...

Here's a synopsis of what he is going to say: "Havingfitz is scum," followed by a vote on me.

[havingfitz]

Yeah!

[havingfitz]

Good job izak. I wasn't 100% sold on you not being scum and if it wasn't for VCA and NKs I very well may have voted for you.

Thanks MS for not putting up a fight.

Town wins...especially in LYLO are always nice.

[havingfitz]

@}|{opa...thanks. Also, I wouldn't take all the blame for Toast's lynch if I were you. He brought on some of it as well as did my switch to his wagon. I just wish I had stuck to my MS guns yesterday so we could have avolded the entire LYLO. I almost voted izak today for the simple fact he was on Toast's lynch and MS wasn't.

And actually, thanks fitz. Your constant pestering ended up helping after all

That was the objective. Glad you voted the right way.

Fitz still looks scummy on paper. At least the argument between us taught me something.

Why farside? WHY? Why must you always think I'm scum?

I'm really starting to get tired of all the looooooooong town v town debates we get into. Since mine are usually a defensive action I'd like to place the blame on you for always thinking I am scummy