Open 295 -- Island Paradise Mafia -- Game Over

[cjdrum]

vote: ToastyToast

For being the last person to post before I came. Gotta be scum.

And, how lucky is it (for the Mafia) that they got the Vig, and for us that the Vig got his kill in (on a Mafioso), too! The irony.

[cjdrum]

Wait, we're not RVSing any more?

Unvote

I'm confoozled, I got here and RVSd and got told off?

[cjdrum]

yabba, what's so bad, in your opinion, about RQS?

ToastyToast - have you never been in any RQS before? What kinds of questions have been asked of you?

[cjdrum]

I'm not scum. And my favourite* flavour* of ice cream is Jaffa flavoured*. It's quite nice.

*Reppin' Australian/British spelling

[cjdrum]

Wait, I don't think my question was answered. yabba, rethink your post or you're obvscum!

[cjdrum]

This one?

Hola people. What a bloody beginning.

VOTE: Animorph

"We can't tell you who we are. Or where we live."

Um... If you're talking about the strange quote at the end, would scum

really

make it that obvious? If you Google (with quotes) "We can't tell you who we are. Or where we live.", you'll find that it's a quote from the Animorphs books. A random vote.

[cjdrum]

No, I know nothing.

How else would a Mafia Goon die, though? With your proposed TTTTCVB, there'll only be one Vig.

[cjdrum]

Oops, yeah. Serial Killer :/

Nevmind, then.

If

it was the Vig, then that's hilarious. If that was an SK, then that's good for us - that we've got a scum killed from somebody who's against us. And we can hope it happens again

[cjdrum]

"Scum like to congratulate themselves"? Really? In the private discussion amongst themselves, maybe, but out in the open like that?

And "subtly suggesting that having an SK in the game is a good thing" - when somebody pointed out to me that there is likely to be an SK, and I said that it makes sense, and it can't be all that bad if the SK kills Mafia for us ?
1) SKs basically never win. They aren't exactly the

strongest

players - they have only one death and their kill is gone, and want to kill Mafia

as well as

Town. In fact, it makes more sense for the SK to start on Mafia, as if the endgame comes with >1 Mafia vs. SK, Mafia wins.
2) I intended that post to be jocular and not-to-be-taken-seriously. Turns out, the above thinking leaked through, but this was my original intention.

Picking up on small, early game, not-actually-scummy-but-easy-to-pretend-they-were-taken-the-wrong-way posts as scummier than any other reasoning on the table?

FoS: DeathRowKitty

I've been trying to read through stuff, but I got slightly lost. I'll post more tomorrow - I've only been able to get on and think for about an hour each day, but that's changed and I can spend more time.

[cjdrum]

EBWOP: Sorry, looked at previous poster instead of referenced post poster

FoS: ToastyToast

[cjdrum]

Sorry, I would've posted even if you didn't vote for me, apologizing in a similar way to the final sentence or two of my post.

And, can you explain why 1 isn't true

AT ALL

? If you could please actually read it, can you at least tell ms what's half right?
2 - ALL my posts were at the start of the game. It's stupid to deny that. At that time, there wasn't exactly a thousand scummy-looking posts, so I wasn't feeling an ability to call out scum at that time. I was still speccing; there wasn't (and still isn't) even a confirmed SK; and I assumed that people were going to take a lighthearted post lightheartedly.

Obviously not

.

Ninja'd by TT's second post - I haven't voted for you. An FoS is not a vote. Also, you didn't

draw me out

. I was going to post here as soon as I could: coincidentally after you voted for me.

[cjdrum]

When I see people voting for lurkers, I feel as if they are trying to go for an easy lynch. So, I have a problem with it.

But You didn't really answer my question. If you expect me to vote or if you want to convince town, I need more evidence than one sentence.
Also, my vote on you isn't OMG SCUM, but I do find you scummy. Other players need to get in here, I'm not denying that--I just find your vote lacking and am unconvinced on your defense regarding searching for cop.

Please see underlined. Combined with this post, I don't see how your said reasons to vote for me work without us being able to use

your own

beliefs against what you've acted out. How 'bout you practice what you preach?

They might know each other? Or, as you observed previously in that post, we're in the same Mish Mash game? That was a

really

rash assumption. Subtly turning people against both me and another at the same time - honestly, if two people have a [popular, well known movie/show] avatar, do you instantly suspect them? Like, if somebody had Harry Potter and another had Ginny Weasley, do you instantly assume they're Lovers? NO! Even look at our sigs - ever heard of Team Anubis? We're both in a Mish Mash game together. Got a problem?
Rash assumptions.

I'm going to end

this

post (in case it all disappears from my iPod), but more is likely to come.

[cjdrum]

Then, accuse me of lighthearted posts?

I'm expecting a lot of pictures of me being eaten.

lol DRK u sigged me <3

You speak against yourself, again.

And your most recent post, #177, also contradicts your little "Voting for a lurker is scummy as hell" belief.

I think that this blatant hypocrisy is pretty bad. Also, you vote for a lurker to "draw them out" - I don't get a PM from NS to say I've been voted for. Me posting at that time only proves that I was going to post at that time anyway. If I'm not in the thread, I'm not going to respond to a vote. "Drawing me out" doesn't exactly work all that well if you think about it, does it.

Now that I've looked through all this, I'm convinced to

vote: ToastyToast

Until you can give me an explanation of... Why you can't act out what you believe.

[cjdrum]

Out of interest, what does V/LA actually stand for?

Also, if people are finding DRK scummy - why are there no votes on him? I guess it's because there are

more

scummy people, but everybody is on an even playing field except for them (and farside, and fitz). It's as if it's two or three cycles of "A votes B, because B voted C, because C voted D, ... because H voted I because they disagreed with something they said"... Is there anything to make of that? I can't see anything particularly obvious, but there's probably something to be gained...

[cjdrum]

Wait. This whole farside/havingfitz thing... What?

After the last post by each of them, I have to believe havingfitz.

No one

keeps a calm and level head at that stage... Unless they were constantly Previewing and checking how scummy they sounded with their outburst!

No. If farside was more angry, or confused, or something... Currently, it's as if she's got it all under her control. Like she's driving this, and it's all going to plan. havingfitz is, IMHO, just another person who's gotten one or two of their posts torn apart by someone who's going down anyway, so has to make a mess of it all.

vote: farside22

PEdit: Also, ftr, I don't like "And now fitz has gone to ranting scum".

1. You turned away from your argument, like it didn't matter.
2. In doing this, you make us look at his post in a worse light than it really is in.
3. He's not ranting, he's been picked at and picked at and picked at until he couldn't take it any more - not ranting scum, just sick and tired [alignment*].

* Not figured out yet, but less likely to be scum after all that.

[cjdrum]

@cjdrum: Why exactly is keeping things under control scummy?

Keeping the topic of the thread to one specific thing

,

making havingfitz look really bad by drawing on him so much

, and

kind of... herding the argument so that it's always exactly what she wants (or feels comfortable) to talk about - which'd be the less scummy things

. This is:

• [*]Looking like you're actively participating in every discussion, while really not
[*]Drawing attention away from oneself by being so obvious about doing it - so much so that it looks like scumhunting, rather than drawing attention away from themself.
[/*]
[*]Always making sure that they don't run out of non-scummy things to say. Simple as that.
[/*]

And if you mean my "calm and level head" comment... Town are more likely to slip up and make mistakes - scum are constantly previewing and checking that they're not being reckless and outrageous. With such a dismissive post (#224), it feels like farside is trying to herd the argument so as not to outburst; trying to move away from a topic that's likely to be slipped up in.

[cjdrum]

Yep. I see what you mean - neither have actually been more scummy than the other. I've looked back, and there's been a moment or two, but they kind of balance each other out.

unvote: farside22

And waiting for scummy.

[cjdrum]

So... Farside

doesn't

have a DayKill?

[cjdrum]

@CJ: do you think Toast is suspicious or not, and -- if not -- what changed your mind?

No, not any more.

I think that was just a phase of scummy seemingness, and it wasn't really scummy at all - just me overreacting. I then found farside scummy (because that was my gut feeling - which is surprisingly often right)... But then it was pointed out to me that that was not very well thought through, too.

So now I'm just trying to see if anybody else is looking scummy in any way - but I can't see; the whole thread seems to be farside and havingfitz arguing over... What exactly? I doubt that they're both Town, and I severely doubt that they're both scum... But I can't put one over the other.

[cjdrum]

Did I have a non-OMGUS vote... I didn't see it as OMGUS, at the time, but if I'm honest with myself it probably was.

And about the little nudge from Jora: I hadn't fully read through the argument - only the last few posts, in which farside looked far scummier... But when Jora mentioned his equal reads, I felt obliged to read more thoroughly, at which point I saw that neither really was scummier than the other - rather, they had their phases, as if they were just orbiting around on opposite sides of scummy.

[cjdrum]

A good start. I don't like Jora's bv reasons a) because he's now the millionth person to use that stupid ???-PROFIT cliché and b) because it lynches a null slot where an at least somewhat active slot could actually buy us something.

I don't really get why killing Start would give any more insight than killing animorph/bv. He's basically made no stances throughout the game, so what's a flip going to tell us? Even if you want to kill a lurker, I think BV's "format" post looks more scummy, since it implies he's written up thoughts but hasn't published them.

CJ = not responded to my question = IGMEOY.

Er... Which question? I thought I had answered that string of questions that you had asked, but I can answer them again, if I must.

[cjdrum]

I would certainly hope you don't have anyone in your "definite scum" list. If you did, I would have to assume you're scum

...on second thought, please put someone in your definite scum list so I can assume you're scum

.

Let's discuss yabbaguy's post 57.

Now, first thing to notice is that it's post #57 and there are

57 Heinz varieties

. Yes, you heard me correctly. He captured the elusive Heinz varieties post. That alone gives him town points in my book.

But even aside from that, try to put yourself in his mindset.

It should be easier for you than for me since the first letter of your username is lower-case anyway.

Imagine you've just seen my posts.

(Reading them again now is probably advisable, but if not, pretending you did and then agreeing with me and voting Sundy is acceptable too.)

Now try to tell me which alignment you feel when making that post.

Breathe in. Breathe out. You do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around. That's what it's all about.

(Parts of that were actually meant to be serious. Bonus points if you can figure out which parts.)

These parts?


Anyway, sorry for not posting, I'm waiting for Sundy's answer to my question - Which, in fact, I posted only 25 minutes after their post.
(Sundy's post; my post)

By mod vote count, Sundy's on one vote, so I'll just

vote: Sundy

Until later notice. I just don't want to be stuck with Sundy avoiding the game while they sit with a single vote on them.

[cjdrum]

EBWOP: Ninja'd by yabba - wait, do you know what the hell (s)he's talking about? I thought that (s)he was done with his/her questioning...

[cjdrum]

Really? Sundy wants me to give specific analysis on this whole farside22/havingfitz/Jora thing...
Which started on Page

6

(even page 5, maybe)???

Um. WTF, really. As I've said - I feel like they have Towny phases and they have Scummy phases. They never seem to stay as anything for long enough to conclude anything - or draw specifics.

@Sundy - I see that you had a lot

([/sarcasm])

to say on the first 2 pages of the argument, but absolutely nothing after that. Sure, you were V/LA (on Limited Access) - but you had some half-hearted stuff to say on page 6, the same amount of posts but less amount of usefulness page 7, and then popped back in page 11...

completely ignoring

the farside/havingfitz thing. IMO, I'd like to see you try to get an analysis of it first - it kind of seems like

you've

only read the bare minimum, so I don't think it's fair for you to call someone else out so heavily for doing the same.

[cjdrum]

@ZeroFang: Umm... What DRK said. I was going to say much the same things in response to you, but also to point out the final line of your linked Wiki page:

Note that these are rules of thumb, not hard and fast rules. There are and will be exceptions. The key to being a great player is being able to identify them.

Also, not sure what you could possibly mean when you say "the classic 'Oh, I didn't know we weren't RVSing'". I came in, people seemed to be RVSing, so I did too. Immediately after, DRK corrected me, and I was genuinely confused.

Now I'm simply confused as to why you are picking up so much on these miniature things.


Although... DeathRowKitty: You do seem to be "defending" me an awful lot.
a) Why do it?
b) Why me?
At the moment, it kind of looks to me as if you're trying to get me killed if you flip scum - but I don't know. IGMEOY, though.

[cjdrum]

Just checking in before I have to leave...

@ZF: You outlined some cases for a Jora lynch, then went really hard against havingfitz... And then suddenly voted for Jora. Why didn't you vote earlier... And what changed your mind?
You seemed to come in here and just tell everybody that everybody else was scummy for this, this, this. Why did you choose Jora over everybody else?

Also, everyone else, I'd put a vote on ZF, but I wouldn't be able to unvote. If, say, three people chime in and say I should, I'm completely prepared to throw a vote down.

[cjdrum]

Also, on the results of the night phase: the fact that there were no kills makes me think that there are no vigs or SK's (I suppose one-shot vig could exist). I highly doubt the chance of two successful doc-blocks in one night.

Orr... There's the (admittedly extremely likely) possibility of the SK withholding his kill, then saying that there musn't be one because there were no kills.

Orr... There's the other possibility of the Mafia withholding the kill, then saying that there musn't be an SK to... Actually no.

Orr... There's the not-very-likely possibility of Town having no idea, then saying that (even with 50% chance of an SK in the game) there's no SK because.. Actually, I don't see Town doing that.

I'm sorry, but with my previous suspicion of you on top of this, I have to...

vote: ToastyToast

[cjdrum]

Are

you

kidding?


Let me break this up for you.

Are you kidding?

No, I'm not.

@Mod: Do SK have to send in a kill each night?

From my experience, they usually have to do so.

I'll answer with this:

Each night, you

may

send me a PM with the name of a player that you wish to kill. You win when you are the only player still alive

Its what

I think

happened. Excuse the WIFOM, but mafia would not hold off on a kill this early.

Again, answering with a quote (of the post directly before yours):

There's the other possibility of the Mafia withholding the kill, then saying that there musn't be an SK to...

Actually no

.

Also, with a vig death and a mafia death N0, I am seeing that they killed each other. This only works when paired with tonights results. And vigs do shoot N0, happens all the time.

Mafia died via one of Serial Killer or Vig - no guarantees. Vig died via one of Serial Killer and Mafia - no guarantees. I've heard of too many cases where a kill was held off to make it look like the person was not that role. Too many.
Continuing...

I'm not saying that there aren't other options, I'm just suggesting what I find the most likely and what I intend to be operating on.

It was a very hard and fast decision that you made - even if it was only an "opinion". The fact that you chose that opinion as your own is flippin' scummy.

Instead of looking for individual scumminess, looking for associations (or lack thereof) will be more helpful.

Okay. I'm fine with you using this tactic, but... It wasn't relevant here. You practically change the topic to "Haha, find my scumbuddy, losers... Oh wait, you can't"

And you mean the previous suspicion of me voting you?

No.

lol, yeah cuz those were great reasons. Where, after that little argument, did you mention suspicions on me?

here, then here also.

when there is a case of crap upon more crap against me, I can't help but get frustrated.

You mean... D1 or D2? I think that it's better to vote somebody based on many small-ish points that I've found than for somebody who is being voted on because they are.

jora gets scumpoints for saying its "all over" if I'm lynched, but its no different from his usual play

Should I rephrase this?
"Jora is evil, we should look into him - but he's all normal, so..."

I can see cjdrum and yabba scum team. cjdrum does not once mention the jackalope wagon. NOT ONCE. Especially when getting close to deadline, you think he would consider it. Looks to me like distancing from a wagon for town credit. Instead he goes after ZF--but no vote!
yabba and cjdrum hardly mention one another. yabba does so only once, when cjdrum says he'll put a vote on ZF. And yet, we never hear a response. And now, instead of coming back and continuing a case on ZF, or giving an answer as to why he didn't put a vote down, he votes me.

I didn't vote because I wasn't going to be there for deadline - if a few others hadn't been there, we could've lynched a PR simply because "the majority" weren't there to unvote.

[cjdrum]

What person had to hold off on a kill to avoid people from thinking he was said role? More likely for an SK to pretend he was Vig.

AKA: "SK's not gonna hold off a kill

to pretend to not be SK

, he's more likely to hold off a kill

to pretend to not be SK

and be Vig instead."
Meaning he becomes more Townish rather than neutral - which is my point exactly.

And... Jora? What are you saying? I know there's probably sarcasm in there somewhere, but I don't know which bit(s)

[cjdrum]

Vote: cjdrum

Bandwagon much?

Fine with me

Unvote:Vote:cjdrum.

Bandwagon OMGUS much?

Also, havingfitz: Can you give some solid points yourself, please? If you simply vote me and let two others blatantly follow your bandwagon, I have nothing to defend against.
Anything in particular that I can respond to, please?

[cjdrum]

TOASTYTOAST!

Can you give some solid points yourself, please? If you simply vote me

and let two others blatantly follow your bandwagon

, I have nothing to defend against.
Anything in particular that I can respond to, please?

Also, havingfitz, you haven't responded here either. Answers, pl0x?

[cjdrum]

Yeah. Since when did the apple get a vote to lynch?
But honestly, what's wrong with Toasty? cjdrum is obvious Mcobvious Town and I bet you know it.

What has cjdrum done to make him obvtown. Throwing the term around is one thing but actual proof is another. I've ISO'd cjdrum 2...maybe 3 times? and still do not see protown in him.

Maybe not, but can you

please

,

please

,

please

tell me what I

have

done that is

Anti

Town?

Why are you so bloody focused on a yabba+me scumteam? You haven't given any real reasonings (for anything); the closest thing you got to a real reasoning for anything was this:

1) Attitude, but that was ended with my 1st vote on you.

Okay, if the suspicion ended, don't bring it up.

2) You + Yabbaguy makes an awful lot of sense.

HAS NOT BEEN EXPLAINED

3) Vote hopping: I can't track your train of thought at all, don't really know where your suspicions are...in contrast to farside, ZF, and even yabbaguy, you seem to be too flexible with your reads. A proper scum list on your part would be awfully nice plz.

I have my own train of thought. I understand it, and others don't seem to have a problem with it either. If you have a problem following, ask me what I meant or how I got somewhere. (also, I will work on a proper scum list when I get on a real computer - sorry for the wait )

4) The point on which you attacked me today (my speculation) is not something I see to be enough to warrant a vote, and thus the only reason I see for your vote lies within yabba's own reasons. I just don't think there is an SK among us.

My reasoning was stronger than your "Oh, it's really just a gut thing" reasoning. It seems to be that if you want to say anything to me, you should say it to yourself first.

5) GUT, and its a strong one. My gut basically starts my case on you, and with a suspicion in mind I've been paying a lot of attention to your posts. So, little things stick out.

If you believed that the colour red was out to get you, you'd be seeing red everywhere. The minor feelings from your gut calling me scummy mean nothing. I just want a real thing to defend against - if you give me nothing to defend against, I'll just be lynched without any say.

Italics is mine.

Honestly, TT. If I didn't have a vote on you already, I'd vote you simply for that last point - you're not letting me defend; you're just letting me hang at L-2 so some other people can vote on me when the deadline gets close.

[cjdrum]

VOTE: ToastyToast.

That's a hammer.

I think we're at L-1, actually.

[cjdrum]

Ack, prod dodge. Nothing really happened, as far as I could tell... Small half-ish case for DRK, saying neither of TT or I are that scummy, comments on VI-ocy...

And DRK's at L-3, popping in with [see previous post]. I can see a sort of case-ish thing against DRK, but won't vote there just yet. I'll

UNVOTE: ToastyToast

To allow for some talking, though.

[cjdrum]

Cjdrum for being obvtown your lynch was lame