Open 295 -- Island Paradise Mafia -- Game Over

[DeathRowKitty]

Hahahahahaaha. <3 Romanus

There being a vig doesn't tell us much about the setup, but that's fine.

Vote: farside22

. Always scum.

(inb4 someone votes me for laughing at the NK...which I've now ensured will happen by posting this...)

[DeathRowKitty]

Vote: DRK

For blatantly lying in one post.
So far the last 2 games we were in I flipped town. Only scum spread lies.

Nah, you were ttly scum. You just don't realize it.

Hola people. What a bloody beginning.

VOTE: Animorph

"We can't tell you who we are. Or where we live."

Vote: Sundy

for finding it necessary to comment on the fact that there were night kills without saying anything about them.

[DeathRowKitty]

Why are people still making random votes? Do both of you think your random votes are more useful than votes for Sundry?

[DeathRowKitty]

-_-

Pretend I didn't say anything. It's not worth it.

[DeathRowKitty]

All right, we'll try it:

cjdrum - are you scum? Also, tell me what your favorite flavor of ice cream is or you're scum.

<3

[DeathRowKitty]

Okay, this game is getting silly now.

@Anyone with a random vote
Do you see nothing remotely worth voting for? Is this not better than nothing? "Oh, hi, I see people died. *random vote*" Does no one else see the possibility of nervous scum there?

Fixed link. ~~NS

[DeathRowKitty]

A tad early for what? A tad early to make serious votes? Okay, you may feel free to sit back and make random votes for the first 20 pages while the rest of us play.

[DeathRowKitty]

I'm not analyzing deaths. I'm analyzing Sundy's post. No connections are needed at all.

[DeathRowKitty]

I'm not analyzing deaths. I'm analyzing Sundy's post. No connections are needed at all.

You're analyzing his post because he has no NK reference...

Is that what I'm analyzing? No, it's not. Tell me what connections we need before my post can make sense.

[DeathRowKitty]

Hi ani. I see you're ignoring my post. And why were you so keen to defend Sundy?

[DeathRowKitty]

I'm not analyzing deaths. I'm analyzing Sundy's post. No connections are needed at all.

You're analyzing his post because he has no NK reference...

Is that what I'm analyzing? No, it's not. Tell me what connections we need before my post can make sense.

You haven't pointed out any errors. You said my post is too early because we need connections. Explain how connections would help with what I pointed out.

[DeathRowKitty]

Vote: Sundy for finding it necessary to comment on the fact that there were night kills without saying anything about them

What kind of connections do you want for that to be valid? Hm? I asked this like 3 posts ago and you still haven't responded. I'll help you along here: there are none. Now stop defending the scummy players.

[DeathRowKitty]

Do you see nothing remotely worth voting for?

No, I'm not. May be you.
It is scummy to make a quick case on someone as soon as get two RVS votes himself, isn't it?
I'm not quiting RVS, just keeping an eye on you and not unvoting. I'd rather continue with RQS for now.

Q: How much should we rely on setup speculation?
A: A lot! I always loved it.
Q: How do you think the events of N0 played out?
A: I've already posted my thoughts on the night actions and a setup. Imo we have a variant with TTTTCVB. andrew94 was a Mafia Goon and he has been killed by a SK.

@cjdrum:

And, how lucky is it (for the Mafia) that they got the Vig, and for us that the Vig got his kill in (on a Mafioso), too! The irony.

N0 shot is very bad and anti-town play for a Vig. What makes you think Romanus did it? Did you know something interesting about Romanus?

No. No no no no no no no no no. No.

There are so many thing wrong with that post it should be nuked now and never allowed to see daylight. No. Just no.

Did I mentioned yet NO?

I'm going to try to list out everything wrong with this post. Even being a cat, I'm not sure I'll have enough time in all 9 of my lives. To be honest though, I think reading this might have gotten rid of 8 of them.

1. You're saying it's scummy to make a case in the RVS. How do
   you
   expect us to get out of RVS? Should we sit around and hope something happens?
2. The number of votes a player has on him or herself has no effect on whether or not that player should be making a case. If I see something worth going after, I don't care if I have no votes on me or if I'm at L-1. How could it
   possibly
   hurt to point things out?
3. I have
   two
   votes on me. It takes 6 to lynch. Evenif making a case was illegal with a large number of votes on oneself, two votes is practically nothing.
4. Let's pretend for a moment that the last two points don't exist. Let's pretend that only players with absolutely no votes on themselves are allowed to scumhunt. Do two RVS votes actually count for anything? What if I were to vote you now? Would you not be allowed to make a case? You'd have a random vote on you!
5. If you're looking to use the RQS to generate information, why continue with the RVS? If you're already looking to generate discussion, random votes should be useless to you.
6. Have you actually seen the RQS so far from this game? RQS very rarely accomplishes anything at all and it's been even less productive than usual by a large margin. Wanting to continue it is completely absurd.
7. Your questions give us nothing to look at in terms of scumhunting. At all. Period. I don't know what you could possibly think we'd get out of them.
8. Your answer to your first question is also completely absurd on day 1. We know that there's a dead vig and that there's a non-mafia killing role. There's nothing to speculate on.
9. For your answer to your second question, there is no way in hell we should be discussing which power roles we think exist. That's just the easiest way for players to accidentally give away their roles based on what they think is in the setup.
10. And how the hell did you decide that particular setup exists? Did you just pull random letters out of your ass and try to pretend it meant anything or would be even remotely useful to consider?
11. Night 0 shot is NOT very bad play for a vig. With 13p start, one could argue it is, but as long as the vig takes another shot, we trade one mislynch for two town-directed kills. No reason vig couldn't have shot night 0.
12. You're so intent on there being an sk. You know who would think about that? THE SK.
13. Your entire post is theory, with the first line being the only game-relevant one. See also: scum trying to appear useful while doing nothing.

So there we go, lucky 13. You know what else is unlucky for you?

Unvote: Sundy

Vote: }{opa

That is. You're now not allowed to make cases, right? Or does that only apply to players with at least 2 fully random votes on them and not players with real votes on them?

[DeathRowKitty]

And while I'm at it:

14. Your RQS questions are blatant excuses to discuss your agenda, which, quite frankly, looks nothing like a town agenda.

Lump that into number 7 if you want to stick with exactly 13 points for maximum bad luck.

[DeathRowKitty]

Also, before I get called out on throwing a bunch of null tells into a post in which I voted, the following items in the list are the ones that are actually scummy:

5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14

And arguably 10

[DeathRowKitty]

His point is to make your words count and not start making useless posts for the sake of posting. I saw something worth posting about and I posted about it. You should comment on it.

[DeathRowKitty]

Didn't notice TT had asked those questions. I would venture to say the questions themselves are not scummy in the context in which he asked them (someone telling him to come up with questions and him just kind of blindly throwing them out there).

All of my points except 7 and 14 still stand on }|{opa, so not moving my vote.

@DeathRowKitty. Am I so bad or you still trying to make a cases out of nowhere?
I just wanted to say you make things too quick like it something hurt your arse.

Are you going to address it or just hope to discredit me so everyone will ignore what i said?

Proverbs 28:1 The wicked flee when no one pursues.

@DeathRowKitty
Well, if all that is as you said and those two votes did not hurt you then you a scum even more.

Huh?

Well, my first thought was that Romanus is famous for his bad play at being a Vig. And, DRK, you totally not right here - Vig should never kill so early. It's very bad if he did.

You may continue to believe this if you wish. I see no reason to argue theory with someone unwilling to actually consider whether or not his opinions are wrong. I gave reasons. You just repeated what you said with no reason.

As for being "nervous," Kitty, you outright apologized in advance for making a joke about the NK lest someone misinterpret you.

Gosh, is everyone I attack this game going to try to defend by attacking me back? I expected to get voted as a joke for the end part of my post. If I was nervous, why draw extra attention like that?

DRK: your scaring me. I recall our last game together and you were not this verbal. I'm frightened as hell.

I can lurk if it would make you feel more comfortable...

Fixed quote tag. ~~NS

[DeathRowKitty]

Stop speculating about the setup -__-

If there are 2 kills tonight, we know there's an sk. Until then, it doesn't matter.

Mod, can you fix the first quote tag in my previous post, please?

>.<

[DeathRowKitty]

Well, if there are 2 kills tonight, it becomes likely there's an sk. Can still technically not be one.

[DeathRowKitty]

I found significantly nothing to addres on this matter. Your magic 14 is crap and I wish you understand it by yourself.

Clearly I don't understand. Explain it to me.

Re: vig killing night 0: Yes, it's more likely for vig to hit town than scum, but it's still an extra town-directed kill. In a setup with 12 players, if the vig gets off 3 kills, he's given us just one less mislynch to work with. As it is, if last night was a vig kill and there's no sk, even if he'd hit town, he'd have given us no less mislynches to work with from his first kill. Night 0 is a good time to get rid of players that are unlikely to be useful to the town anyway, which would seem to be what what happened.

As for the rest of your post, is there something wrong with going after someone "ferociously"?

And yes, I didn't look back at TT's questions. I remembered they were useless, but that's all I remembered about them and the wording of your post made it seem as though they were your questions.

@TT
That's possible too, but I wouldn't expect a one-shot vig to shoot night 1.

[DeathRowKitty]

got caught up in marathon games and kind of neglected regular games

Will catch up and post later today.

[DeathRowKitty]

First, the obvious: Jora looks a hell of a lot more town right now (I say this off of brief skims, but I would be 155% shocked if a more in-depth read changed that).

Unvote: Jora

@DRK: response to }|{'s post?

Not sure I find it worth it to respond to most of what Jora said if he's town. Not sure there's much to respond to again "I think you're scum trying to draw a cop investigation!" If that's what being aggressive looks like, then so be it. Also, I think you're town. I therefore offer you this

once in a lifetime

chance to keep warm in my toaster. It's quite roomy and comfortable.

-DRK for accusing Sundy on NK comment (TT did too??)

Timing is everything.

-DRK pushing Sundy votes for NK comment. (bad)
-DRK overexagerrating animorph's "too early" for serious votes comment. (bad)
-DRK accusing anomorph of defending Sundy (bad)

I thought it was pretty decent for early pressure

-DRK...why is Sundy scummy if not for analyzing the nk when he commented on them?

In his very first post of the game, he posted something to the effect of "Whoa! Two people died!" with no other comment on it at the time. No reference to scum dying. No reference to vig dying. Basically, it seems like he just mentioned it to fit in, when there was plenty I would expect someone commenting on NKs to possibly want to say.

-DRK (who earlier argues the likelihood of a Vig killing N0) states he wouldn't expect a one-shot vig to shoot night 1.

Is this the same situation?

-Posts 73 DRK tells people to not speculate on setup and then in the next post (post 74) he speculates on setup .

Post 74 was me telling people to hold off until we had information to work with to start speculating on what roles were in the game, not me speculating on the setup.

Bad because I did not agree with them...not necessarily bad in a scummy way (individually) but all together things I would keep in mind.
1) I didn't find anything too suspicious with Sundy's opening post/nk assessment. As I did not see what DRK could have hoped for Sundy to have said, considering the NKs had comments to relate them to, I found his reason to voting Sundy a bit weak...and to suggest in two subsequent posts to others that a Sundy vote was better than a RV IMO exhibited overeagerness to form a Sundy wagon.
2&3) It appeared animorph had a similar assessment of DRK's thoughts on Sundy so therefore I disagreed with most of what DRK said in his exchange with Animorph. It seemed to me to be an overexaggeration, i.e. making a bigger deal than necessary, when DRK said animorph was defending Sundy and when he said animorph was content with random votes for 20 pages.

If you don't think the actions themselves are scummy, is it the pattern of actions you think is scummy? And, yes, I over-exaggerated on ani. I don't like people making excuses for my targets....

<3

I don't see how he can be helpful if he overloaded with the graet amount of games he's currently in. So how could we ever know whether he is scummy or just inattentive?! I don't wanna see him in LyLo.

I've been in all those games since the start, plus one more under an alt. Until stopped posting for marathon weekend, would you ever have guessed?

Startransmission's first content post is completely disappointing. *pop in, make excuse for not posting, point out a few things without calling any of them scummy, don't throw down vote*

Vote: Startransmission

@Farside
Not that I mind being considered town and all, but why do you keep defending me? >_> It makes me paranoiddddd

Two people I'm currently watching more closely. I don't want to tip my hand on that yet though.

Also, sorry for the length of this post. Most of my posts are pretty sure generally.

[DeathRowKitty]

Scum like to congratulate themselves, especially in a game like this when there are kills but no suspicion on anyone yet.

What are your opinions on cjd also including the reverse of that?

And yes, you have been sigged

[DeathRowKitty]

Re: TT's attack on cjd
I think cjd is town. I also think TT is town.

Re: point 5 in this post
I was correcting my previous post. My previous post had basically said (at least I think it said this, since I'm going from memory) to stop speculating about the existence of an sk with a vig dead to explain the second kill unless there was a second kill night 1. The second post you're quoting was me clarifying that a second kill at night didn't guarantee the existence of an sk, since (once again, going from memory) my first post made it sound like a second kill night 1 meant there was definitely an sk.

@DeathRowKitty. What a nice person you are! I can't even FoS you. Just can't. I hope you not a scum.

I'm sure you're a nice person too, even if your username is a huge pain to type correctly.

This is a required question to everyone who was on the Jora wagon initially, but what does everyone make of the quickwagon on him earlier?

I think it was certainly the best wagon at the time, so I'm not too concerned. If you're concerned about it though, you should analyze it and tell us which people on it were scum.

I'll admit I only skimmed parts of the farside-HF argument (I only have so much patience to read a lot of text on one subject), but I would pick farside if I had to choose scum out of the pair (since when don't I think farside is scum, right?). Happier with my Startransmission vote for now though.

[DeathRowKitty]

Gosh, I could be scum lurking right now and no one would even notice me! (prod-dodge and promise to maybe theoretically post tonight possibly)

[DeathRowKitty]

I definitely haven't been as active here as I should. Been hit by a massive wave of apathy the past several days. Will post something useful by tonight. If I don't, it likely means I will be useless the rest of the game and you should lynch me.

[DeathRowKitty]

IT'S THURSDAY, THURSDAY, GOTTA PUT A VOTE DOWN ON THURSDAY.

Unvote: Startransmission

Vote: yabbaguy

So it's actually just a useless gut read, but it just so happened that farside voted yabba around the time I was considering doing so. Pretty convenient.

I would like to suggest to that farside and HF are not allowed to respond to each others' posts anymore. I think everyone else will agree with that suggestion.

I'll try to get into this game again, but I'm in more of an "I have no motivation to do anything" situation than a "Meh, I don't feel like posting in this game..." situation, soooooo....whatever

[DeathRowKitty]

yet she continues to pop in and puts a vote down on yabba based on gut conveniently right after yabba expresses suspicions towards DRK.

Would you believe me if I told you I didn't see he expressed suspicion of me? -_-

DRK seems to have no problem posting in other games.

Also, should probably mention that this isn't really true.

[DeathRowKitty]

Uhh....re: that thing you're talking about: I think you guys have argued enough. It's time for the two of you to put your words towards something more useful.

And speaking of which, I have that something more useful for you guys to discuss!

I have, as of this post, officially decided that the two remaining scum from our scum team are Sundy and bv310. If there is an SK, it is yabbaguy. How did I determine this, you might ask? Simple! I read the first two pages (and half of page 3), crossed out names as they became obv-town (and noted for which post each player was obv-town), and made different marks next to names for posts that made them more likely scum or town. Here's what the list looks like (down to the exact symbols and abbreviations I used when making it):

bv/ani =14 =36

cjd

18

drk

farside

15
hf ~26
Jak/star ~11 ~24
Sundy =13
TT ~20 ~23
yab ~~57

opa

9


~ means town post. = means scum post. I used ~~ for the one thing I found that was kiiiiiiiiind of town, but very inconclusive. I would like to guess that it's town though and say there's no sk. Yup.

Unvote: yabbaguy

Vote: Sundy

Looks like I'm back to that!

[DeathRowKitty]

Maybe. I'm not sure I expect myself to agree with these reads when I look back at them later, but it seemed to make sense at the time vOv

[DeathRowKitty]

I do ask that you at least read the entire first 2 and a half pages in context before just calling me crazy

, even though I am

.

[DeathRowKitty]

I would certainly hope you don't have anyone in your "definite scum" list. If you did, I would have to assume you're scum

...on second thought, please put someone in your definite scum list so I can assume you're scum

.

Let's discuss yabbaguy's post 57. Now, first thing to notice is that it's post #57 and there are

57 Heinz varieties

. Yes, you heard me correctly. He captured the elusive Heinz varieties post. That alone gives him town points in my book. But even aside from that, try to put yourself in his mindset. It should be easier for you than for me since the first letter of your username is lower-case anyway. Imagine you've just seen my posts. (Reading them again now is probably advisable, but if not, pretending you did and then agreeing with me and voting Sundy is acceptable too.) Now try to tell me which alignment you feel when making that post. Breathe in. Breathe out. You do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around. That's what it's all about.


(Parts of that were actually meant to be serious. Bonus points if you can figure out which parts.)

[DeathRowKitty]

Pardon the delayed reply TT. At the moment I prefer DRK over the other lurkers because of the continued excuse posts (aka lack of interest), chiming in just enough to avoid prods/replacement....voting based on "useless gut" reads when there should be better reasons than gut at this point IMO. ani/bv just haven't done squat so I do not think they warrant a vote. Star was an option....and yabba ass well. DRK just rose to the top for me. And funny enough I notice a little surge in her posting sooooo

I kind of feel bad trying to make meta excuses for this but....well, that's exactly what I'm going to do. I have some ridiculous love/hate relationship with mafia. It causes me to join games for the wrong reasons, post actively for a while, then suddenly reach a point in which posting normally simply isn't an option for me. I can link you to a couple of my fairly recent games in which that happened if you want, but I'd honestly be linking you to my two worst-played games and quite frankly, they're embarrassing. At the very least, just check my posts. Whenever I've been inactive here, I've been posting actively in at most one thread. As for suddenly being more active again, well, check my posts to see my general trend in posting site-wide. What you're picking up on has nothing to do with my alignment and everything to do with what playing mafia does to me mentally.

Why do you think my gut is useless though? I mean, I could plausibly make the same argument of you: you're voting for lurkers when there should be better reasons than lurking at this point IMO. I've pointed to posts you can look at, agree with, refute. You're voting me for not being interested in the game.

[DeathRowKitty]

Between March 31 and April 7, I didn't make a single post that could even remotely be misconstrued as being useful. How is that active lurking and not just lurking?

[DeathRowKitty]

Well obviously that part of my post wasn't serious.

Any thoughts on the rest of what I posted?

[DeathRowKitty]

As far as I can tell, you suspect me for....being in too many games (wtf?) and because of my "cat-fight" with ani.

So 3 questions:
1) Does being in a lot of games have any bearing on my alignment in this game?
2) What makes you think that was a staged fight as opposed to me harassing someone interfering with my scumhunting?
3) Do you seriously think your case on me actually makes me scummy?

[DeathRowKitty]

I don't care for DRK's continued cameo appearances where she lets us know that she's not intested in the game...yet she continues to pop in and puts a vote down on yabba based on gut conveniently right after yabba expresses suspicions towards DRK. And while it gives (or gave) me a headache dealing with farside...for you [DRK] to advocate we not post anymore is in effect trying to restrain two of the most active posters. My top suspect isn't getting any attention so I'll try elsewhere.

VOTE: DRK

This was your reasoning then? Let's break this down into parts:
1) continued cameo appearances where she lets us know that she's not intested in the game
2) popping in and puts a vote down on yabba based on gut conveniently right after yabba expresses suspicions towards DRK
3) trying to restrain two of the most active posters

The first is just a wordy way to describe a specific brand of lurking (the "I don't feel like posting; I'll post something useful later (lolololol not really)" type). So lurking was certainly a part of your accusation. Now moving on to the second part, your logic there seems to be that I saw that I was being suspected by yabba and jumped in with an OMGUS. Well, I guess I really have nothing to say to that besides that I seriously didn't notice yabba's post expressing suspicion of me. It goes along with the whole not-posting-for-extended-periods-of-time-and-then-skimming-just-to-make-some-sort-of-post thing. I can also honestly say, whether because of skimming or just because it's been so long since I read it and I forgot, that I didn't realize Jora was suspicious of me until I checked his iso a few hours ago (between his post 330 and my post 331). Not sure your third point is worth responding to. If you don't think you and farside have been suffocating the game with your argument, then you're reading a different game than I am. If you can't post sufficient content without arguing with farside in every other post you make, you're no more useful than I am (oooohhhhh, buuuuuurrrrrrrn).

And my vote is no longer on yabbaguy, so I'm no longer voting on self-proclaimed useless gut. I am now voting based on what is arguably useless gut, but is at least tied to specific posts. I changed my vote when I posted because I realized that I no longer remembered why I was voting Startransmission. That tends to happen when I go a span of 7 days during which I post nothing but 2 prod-dodges.

1) No. I was literally shocked when realized the actual amount of games you had been being involved.
2) May be it had not been staged from very begining. But really in my opinion it was something wierd with that interfering. Or with your scumhunting. Or both.
3) I don't have a case on you. Just a strong suspicion. Even more, I guess it's nothing I can say that will make you or somebody else to be look scummy unless I claim PR with any (direct or indirect) guilty results. At current time the only thing which makes you scummy is your own posts.

2) If you think it was the interfering that was weird, then that's purely on ani's end of things. If you think there was something strange about the way I went after him, then that's what would be theoretically making me scummy from that instance. However, if it's just the interfering that you find strange, then you should be taking a closer look at my ani/Sundy theory, considering he was awkwardly interfering with my attack on Sundy.
3) Avoiding the question via the wording. Nice. You know what I meant, but I'll rephrase it anyway: "Do you really think that the things you're pointing out are things that make me likely scum?"

[DeathRowKitty]

Get your head out of the wiki.

I assume you're saying it's strange that I ignored cjd's post because it contained a reference to night kills, right? Mentioning night kills isn't scummy in and of itself. Mentioning night kills with glee isn't scummy in and of itself (and no amount of pointing to overly generalized wiki articles will change that). Sundy mentioned the NKs in a way I would expect scum to (and I've mentioned why I believe that somewhere). The way cjd mentioned the NKs just doesn't have a scum mindset to me. Whereas Sundy seemed to just be mentioning the NKs because he felt he should, cjd seemed to be mentioning them because of a a genuine appreciation of the fact that the vig killed mafia and was himself shot, both purely by chance.

And if you see what exactly I was harassing ani for, cjd was not doing the same thing. Ani was trying to argue it was too early to say what I was saying and tried to write my vote off because of that. cjd addressed something that wasn't even the reason for my vote (and was therefore harmless) and that actually showed an attempt to understand it. Even aside from that, notice I didn't even call ani scummy at the time.

And are even reading? Jora's post on cjd wasn't attacking cjd for the same thing you're saying he's scummy for

at all

and if you think my "rant-wall" was a massive chainsaw, you clearly haven't read it.

So here's my advice: if you're town, reread the first 5 pages and actually practice some reading comprehension this time. If you're scum, plow on ahead and continue to take posts out of context to make yourself lolobvious.

[DeathRowKitty]

Also interesting:

You say I ignored cjd's night kill comments and harassed Sundy's for his, with the strong implication that that was scummy on my part. What's funny about this to me is that you say cjd's post is scummy for pointing out the scum kills with glee, but fail to mention where I do the exact same thing here!

[DeathRowKitty]

This is up to page 5. I had not read beyond at the time of writing.

How lucky is it (for the Mafia) that they got the Vig, and for us that the Vig got his kill in (on a Mafioso), too! The irony.

Wait, we're not RVSing any more?

Unvote

I'm confoozled, I got here and RVSd and got told off?

I want to point this out. I'm surprised everyone missed it (except Jora, a page later). Not only does he comment on the results of last night (with

glee

), but also pulls the classic "Oh, I didn't know we weren't RVSing". I highly recommend everyone here take a class in The Basics of RVS Scumhunting, as well as reading Jeep's Common Tells. Stuff like this shouldn't get away unnoticed.

Actually, without making reference to "The Basics of RVS Scumhunting" or "Jeep's Common Tells", explain why each part of that is scummy. Basically, explain what about the mindset of a scum player would make him/her more likely to do either.

[DeathRowKitty]

Although... DeathRowKitty: You do seem to be "defending" me an awful lot.
a) Why do it?
b) Why me?
At the moment, it kind of looks to me as if you're trying to get me killed if you flip scum - but I don't know. IGMEOY, though.

I only defended you as much as pertained to ZF's accusations. He said it was strange I didn't attack you, so I said why I didn't think what he pointed out made you scum.

[DeathRowKitty]

A couple things I'm going to respond to now with something more useful to come later today (for srs, this time).

ZF mentioned somewhere that I got more active after he started attacking me. He actually started attacking me right

after

I got more active. ZF seems to be having a really hard time with reading this game.

BUTTERED TOAST
DRK: I don't think her arguments are based on emotion; love her 309. The inactive to active means nothing, and she is scum-hunting better than most in this game

DRK's 309 = IMO useless. It's just list of nicks with their

first two pages

posts numbers and unsubstantiated statements like someone is scummy and someone is not. Also, DRK's "scumhunting" is not impress me. I still remember his 14 items argument against me, and now it seems he just returned back on "Sundy's 1st post = scum" theory.

That was my way of trying to get myself back into the game more than anything else. It's something I picked up from playing a lot of chat mafia: when I'm feeling lost in a game, I look back and try to make something out of the start of the game. It's a lot more common for me to be right in my early reads and WIFOM myself out of them than for me to be wrong in my early reads and correctly adjust them. Scum just tend to be more obvious at certain times than others. The start of the game is a big one, since scum don't have anything good to latch onto and are forced to actually try to mimic town play, instead of just playing naturally. Either way, I'm actually going to go back and analyze the first few pages properly later today. I plan on doing it without looking at my prior notes of which posts were town and scum to avoid any sort of confirmation bias.

[DeathRowKitty]

Okay, so the common theme among ZF's catch-up posts is they're all very meta-y. He's been pointing out a whole bunch of things and giving explanations as to why they would be scummy in a mafia game, without actually explaining what would make them scummy in this game. Basically, he's scum tell-hunting, not scumhunting, and I don't like it. Also of note that he says this:

Now, here is a possible game-changing question. Is his attitude of "I hope you die, the game is constipated and it's all your fault" more likely to be perpetrated by scum or town?

without any seeming intention to answer this "game-changing question." Sure, he says he was looking for our input, but it really seems like he has no interest in it beyond bringing it up. Also,

Don't fight with emotions (*ahem*, DRK). It doesn't work, and in my personal opinion, it severely discredits you as a reliable source of reason.

^ that's scummy, given that I recently called his slot scum. He's basically saying "btw guys, you can ignore everything DRK says because he has emotions and can't be a source of reason." Basically, looking to discredit me to take the easy way out.

Now onto the (possibly stupid) analysis of the first couple of pages I said I would do.

[DeathRowKitty]

Actually, leaving that for tomorrow. Not thinking clearly enough right now. If nothing changes before then though, I might be changing my thoughts on the first few pages entirely...

[DeathRowKitty]

Vote: ToastyToast

Still relatively high confidence. Call it 91.237429384710298346298237409128346201982390740981235612098374098562903874%. If you feel I misrepresented that percentage by a margin of error of +/- .002354721%, lynch me.

Please note that self-confidence bias may be a significant factor in influencing confidence threshold for this vote.

Where do these numbers come from? I mean, I can see from the fact that you constantly have consecutive numbers consecutive in the the string of digits that you keymashed, but why numbers and why did you pick something around 90% as opposed to, oh, say, 95% or 80% or something? (no, I'm not just nitpicking on something meaningless)

My thoughts on the SK discussion:

Spoiler: SK Stuff

We are now safe to assume there is no sk. andrew94 makes sense as either a vig kill or an sk kill (but mostly an sk kill). Not killing makes sense for a vig. It doesn't make sense for an sk. If there is an sk, it has, at a minimum, the ability to bypass one roleblock and one doc protection per night. Stopping an sk kill in c9++ is difficult. Sure, sk could have just decided not to kill, but it's unlikely. Serial killer is difficult to win as. Skipping kills makes it more difficult.

If something later points to there being an sk, then this could all change, but, given the information currently available, we should be assuming no serial killer.

Something tells me I'm going to have to basically completely destroy my reads list...or my playstyle...or both.

As for the fight currently going on, yabba > TT in terms of scumminess.

[DeathRowKitty]

Apparently I started writing a post during class yesterday and forgot to finish/post it >_> Posting this now and catching up on the rest of the thread.

Whatever about the percentage crap, I meant that in jest. No answer to any question regarding that. As for the SK discussion, I did forget about the fact that there was a multi-kill N0 and then a vig flip, but, and call me crazy if you will, I'm still not entirely sold about being able to dismiss SK as a possibility. Could've been SK and Maf shooting with Vig inhibiting their kill. Does Romanus seem the sort to attempt an N0 vig?

That said, happy to assume no SK. I will concede that statistical likelihood suggests against an SK existing.

Quoting random percentages may or may not be a scum tell (well, it's definitely a scum tell, but I'm not sure how strong of a tell it is...). It's a way of overjustifying a vote/suspicion (How sure am I? I'm this sure, dammit!). So I expect an answer anyway.

Also, I would be more than happy to oblige calling you crazy. With vig dying night 0 and there suddenly being no kills night 1, versus the two kills night 2, the chances of there being an sk are ridiculously low.

[DeathRowKitty]

Vote: cjdrum

[DeathRowKitty]

As an explanation for my vote, the spinning apple told me to.



When you don't listen to the spinning apple, it hangs you from those hooks you see in the background. I speak from experience when I say that it isn't pleasant.

Any other questions?

[DeathRowKitty]

This is actually a hydra account of me and the apple. When I don't listen to it, it hangs me from the wall by those hooks.

[DeathRowKitty]

Unvote: cjdrum

That was the apple's vote, not mine. I've since eaten the apple, so all is well (2 new apples have taken its place (THEY'RE MULTIPLYING!!!), but they don't seem to care who I vote).

In all seriousness (assuming of course that I'm ever serious), I've long since forgotten who's scummy for what. Something useful will be posted from this account in the next few days, even if I have to get my other personality to post it for me!

[DeathRowKitty]

My other personality never got around to posting here, so I guess I'll just do it.



I went back and iso'd cjdrum to see if he was actually scummy. I assume that I'm not allowed to use gut at this point, so I'll actually try to give some sort of reasoning this time:

cjdrum has spent most of the game sitting around and waiting for excuses to throw half-hearted votes down, usually with a bit of awkwardly weak reasoning, followed by some more weak reasoning to unvote or to change votes. Let's see if I can highlight some of the important posts here. I'll try to be a bit conservative on what I point out to avoid having to resort to "It just seems scummy.":

Post 21 - This was in response to my asking why people were still casting random votes. Compare this response to TT's in the previous post. TT assumed it was just a difference of opinion, explained his position calmly, and moved on. cj assume he was doing something wrong (why?) and just immediately backed off of his vote, thinking the RVS was over, without looking to do anything productive (including responding to what I actually said). This is the first example of a pattern that develops over cj's posts: waiting for other people to bring things up and then following them for as long as they're in style.
Post 173 - This (along with post 172 giving his reasons) is the first time he's expressed suspicions of someone. Interesting enough, it's for the person that just voted him. Followed up by a vote 3 posts later
Post 187 - Asks why people aren't voting me, despite expressing suspicion. Weird in a couple of ways. For one thing, only one player (HavingFitz) actually expressed suspicion of me since cj's previous post. What's really strange about it though to me is that "Why aren't people voting Player X?" seems like something a player would ask if they were suspicious of Player X, but cj hadn't expressed any suspicion of me. It's as if he just wants people to suspect someone else (For what purpose? I don't know.) Further evidence of this is in "I guess it's because there are more scummy people, but everybody is on an even playing field except for them (and farside, and fitz)," which really just looks like him trying to spread suspicion.
Post 226 - He votes farside for...keeping a level head? From this post, "

No one

keeps a calm and level head at that stage... Unless they were constantly Previewing and checking how scummy they sounded with their outburst!" This is simply a ridiculous generalization. It looks like a case of "farside did this and I want to vote her, so this must be scummy" as opposed to "farside did this scummy thing and is therefore scummy."
Post 232 - A couple of people told him they disagreed and he suddenly just completely turns around with no more reasoning than ""I see what you mean." What happened to his underlined "no one" keeping a calm and level head? Did that go away when his vote didn't stick?
Post 240 - Call me a skeptic, but did he really not know the daykill was faked in an open game with no daykilling roles? Better yet, farside was the player he'd most recently suspected. If he really thought farside's daykill was real, I would expect him to have something to say about it.
Post 263 - He apparently still thinks one of farside and HF is scum, yet he's unvoted farside and barely mentioned HF.
Post 318 - This post is really out-of-place with his previous several posts. He's suddenly stopped mentioning the farside/HF ordeal (despite thinking one of them is scum) and now decides to pressure a lurker.
Post 321 - So his excuse for not going after farside or HF is that they have their town moments and their scummy moments and no conclusions can be drawn about them...yes he's also said he thinks one of them should be scum? Interesting. Also interesting that most of his defense here boils down to "You did the same thing, so you're not allowed to call me out on it."
Post 377 - "I'll throw a vote down if enough of you tell me to that I don't have to take responsibility for it!" I'm also really confused where his ZF suspicion is coming from in the first place. As far as I can tell, it's just him latching onto the biggest suspect at the time.
Post 425 - Umm...did he just vote TT for what he believes to be incorrect setup speculation? And what previous suspicion of TT is he talking about? The vote headmitted was OMGUS?
Post 563 - Considering I just voted him for...0 reasoning and then justified it with "The apple told me to!", "I can see a sort of case-ish thing against DRK" just doesn't make sense. I would expect him to either think I was scummy for a ridiculously shady vote or not think I was scummy for a ridiculously shady vote, not be looking for cases others have made against me. Seems like one of those "I'll leave my options open to this without having to commit to it" kinds of things.

Vote: cjdrum

Fun. And I even timed it so badly he replaced out before I posted it. Lovely.

---

@Sundy
I do not recall correcting you as to my gender.

[DeathRowKitty]

I'm here. There just wasn't much to post about as of this morning....(blah blah, I'll respond to stuff later).

[DeathRowKitty]

There will likely be an extended period of sleep between now and a useful post, but I may as well ask before then: how important is it to vote for people you think are scum? Anyway, bbl bai!