Open 295 -- Island Paradise Mafia -- Game Over

[ToastyToast]

Scum like to congratulate themselves, especially in a game like this when there are kills but no suspicion on anyone yet.

What are your opinions on cjd also including the reverse of that?
And yes, you have been sigged

Its null, my votes intent was to draw cjdrum out. I read one of HF's posts and found the same oddities he mentioned.
It worked, and now he's voting me as his defense! lol

[cjdrum]

Sorry, I would've posted even if you didn't vote for me, apologizing in a similar way to the final sentence or two of my post.

And, can you explain why 1 isn't true

AT ALL

? If you could please actually read it, can you at least tell ms what's half right?
2 - ALL my posts were at the start of the game. It's stupid to deny that. At that time, there wasn't exactly a thousand scummy-looking posts, so I wasn't feeling an ability to call out scum at that time. I was still speccing; there wasn't (and still isn't) even a confirmed SK; and I assumed that people were going to take a lighthearted post lightheartedly.

Obviously not

.

Ninja'd by TT's second post - I haven't voted for you. An FoS is not a vote. Also, you didn't

draw me out

. I was going to post here as soon as I could: coincidentally after you voted for me.

[ToastyToast]

If you want me off your back, then form a case with support plz.
Your posts stuck out when I ISO'd the lurkers.

[cjdrum]

When I see people voting for lurkers, I feel as if they are trying to go for an easy lynch. So, I have a problem with it.

But You didn't really answer my question. If you expect me to vote or if you want to convince town, I need more evidence than one sentence.
Also, my vote on you isn't OMG SCUM, but I do find you scummy. Other players need to get in here, I'm not denying that--I just find your vote lacking and am unconvinced on your defense regarding searching for cop.

Please see underlined. Combined with this post, I don't see how your said reasons to vote for me work without us being able to use

your own

beliefs against what you've acted out. How 'bout you practice what you preach?

They might know each other? Or, as you observed previously in that post, we're in the same Mish Mash game? That was a

really

rash assumption. Subtly turning people against both me and another at the same time - honestly, if two people have a [popular, well known movie/show] avatar, do you instantly suspect them? Like, if somebody had Harry Potter and another had Ginny Weasley, do you instantly assume they're Lovers? NO! Even look at our sigs - ever heard of Team Anubis? We're both in a Mish Mash game together. Got a problem?
Rash assumptions.

I'm going to end

this

post (in case it all disappears from my iPod), but more is likely to come.

[cjdrum]

Then, accuse me of lighthearted posts?

I'm expecting a lot of pictures of me being eaten.

lol DRK u sigged me <3

You speak against yourself, again.

And your most recent post, #177, also contradicts your little "Voting for a lurker is scummy as hell" belief.

I think that this blatant hypocrisy is pretty bad. Also, you vote for a lurker to "draw them out" - I don't get a PM from NS to say I've been voted for. Me posting at that time only proves that I was going to post at that time anyway. If I'm not in the thread, I'm not going to respond to a vote. "Drawing me out" doesn't exactly work all that well if you think about it, does it.

Now that I've looked through all this, I'm convinced to

vote: ToastyToast

Until you can give me an explanation of... Why you can't act out what you believe.

[ToastyToast]

there's a difference between banter based on experiences with a player elsewhere and speaking of game mechanics.
and it would have drawn you out if you were reading the game w/o posting

^^I stand by the other comment you pointed out, but, honestly, look at the player list:
Who has contributed: DRK, farside, havingfitz, me, opa, yabba
I've spoken with each of them, and don't see them as scum
So I HAVE to look at the people slipping under the radar. I looked at sundy and startransmission, the next most active, and didn't find them scummy either. Then I looked at you and found something.
Not hypocritical, just me going down the list.

Also, the "do they know each other?" was a legitimate question. Given that I've had enough crappy experience with people who know each other outside game and decided to cheat with each other, eventually resulting in a mass replacement--I can ask that.

Well then, what other input do you have on this game? Seems to me that your acting as if I'm the only one here, the only one who voted you out of suspicion.

[havingfitz]

So you don't have a better reason for voting for Jora then the one I quoted? I did ask for more reason's which you neglected from your post.

You asked for more reason.....I gave them with my vote (post 109) and elaborated on them in post 145, here:

The post is a list of the things that caught my attention as I caught up. The individual observations towards DRK did not outweight the one transgression I observed from }|{opa. If I think someone is scum...I'm going to vote them. I am not going to annoint someone as scum (the GF yet!) and then just FOS them and vote someone who has made all of two posts. As for voting the same candidate...I find }|{opa scummier ATT so the fact my current #2 is voting the same way means nothing (except possibly that they aren't both scum).

This is why I voted }|{opa. In plain view for those who take the time to read. Whether my reasons are good or not is a matter of opinion. I say they are good. Translation...his vote on lurkerStar when he believes DRK is a mafia GF and directing a potential cop investigation.

Back to this one...

farside...my suspicions of }|{opa and DRK are totally independant of each other. I can and do suspect them both. I just find the suspicion I hold of }|{opa to be more significant att than DRK. And how is anything I have done hypocritical? I'm voting who I think is scum....}|{opa isn't. I'm voting someone who has provided a lot of information to work with, }|{opa isn't. Where is the hypocrisy? And what makes my vote opportunistic? The fact I placed it? <headshake>

I used your quote with reasoning sir. Your only reason listed and main reason was that he voted for a lurker over someone he suspects more. If there are more reason's then spell them out. Why is Jora scum in your view?

Yes...post 156 had reasons...as did #109 and #145. He...}|{opa...is the most suspicious player (ie what you call scum) atm in my mind for the reasons provided with my vote and in post 145 (above). That is why my vote was placed initially. It remains there for the same reasons AND because of the way he reacted following my vote (the self vote). I need to look back to see if he has revoked his suspisions towards DRK and Star but I find it amusing that }|{opa has now switched over to another ~lurker in animorph.

You had all these points on DRK but vote for jora. That is hypocritical. Saying well this person looks scummy, but I'm voting for X for weak reason is what Jora did and you did. Your vote is opportunistic because Jora has a bw on him.

All my random thoughts (what you call points) are weighed equally. It's not a case where DRK did 5 things to make me go "Hmmmmmm" while }|{opa did 3...so I must vote DRK. The things DRK did were not in total more scummy than what I see from }|{opa.

As for the opportunistic vote...when is a bw vote opportunistic? Vote #2? #3? #4?

FYI...I vote who I suspect most and I don't really care how large their wagon is (unless as previously mentioned the vote would be the hammer). If "opportunistic" applies to any vote less than the #4 I placed then it would appear there were a few other "opportunistic" voters as well.

[havingfitz]

-DRK for accusing Sundy on NK comment (TT did too??)

1)

Timing is everything.

-DRK pushing Sundy votes for NK comment. (bad)
-DRK overexagerrating animorph's "too early" for serious votes comment. (bad)
-DRK accusing anomorph of defending Sundy (bad)

2)

I thought it was pretty decent for early pressure

-DRK...why is Sundy scummy if not for analyzing the nk when he commented on them?

3)

In his very first post of the game, he posted something to the effect of "Whoa! Two people died!" with no other comment on it at the time. No reference to scum dying. No reference to vig dying. Basically, it seems like he just mentioned it to fit in, when there was plenty I would expect someone commenting on NKs to possibly want to say.

-DRK (who earlier argues the likelihood of a Vig killing N0) states he wouldn't expect a one-shot vig to shoot night 1.

4)

Is this the same situation?

-Posts 73 DRK tells people to not speculate on setup and then in the next post (post 74) he speculates on setup .

5)

Post 74 was me telling people to hold off until we had information to work with to start speculating on what roles were in the game, not me speculating on the setup.

Bad because I did not agree with them...not necessarily bad in a scummy way (individually) but all together things I would keep in mind.
1) I didn't find anything too suspicious with Sundy's opening post/nk assessment. As I did not see what DRK could have hoped for Sundy to have said, considering the NKs had comments to relate them to, I found his reason to voting Sundy a bit weak...and to suggest in two subsequent posts to others that a Sundy vote was better than a RV IMO exhibited overeagerness to form a Sundy wagon.
2&3) It appeared animorph had a similar assessment of DRK's thoughts on Sundy so therefore I disagreed with most of what DRK said in his exchange with Animorph. It seemed to me to be an overexaggeration, i.e. making a bigger deal than necessary, when DRK said animorph was defending Sundy and when he said animorph was content with random votes for 20 pages.

6)

If you don't think the actions themselves are scummy, is it the pattern of actions you think is scummy? And, yes, I over-exaggerated on ani. I don't like people making excuses for my targets....

1) Fair enough wrt TT. Though the Sundy vote for not making a comment on the NK...when there really was not comment worth making IMO..is still suspicious.
2) I did not rule that out (hence only an FoS atm)
3) What "plenty" would you expect someone to say in their first post following a pair of N0 NKs? There were no conversations or wagons to link to them. Would a comment like "The scum nk was blind luck and the vig nk was tough luck" have got us anywhere?
4) Close enough to make it seem like a minor contradiction. 1-shot or not...I doubt a Vig would have acted N0.
5)

Stop speculating about the setup -__-

Well, if there are 2 kills tonight, it becomes likely there's an sk. Can still technically not be one.

Looks like speculating to me.

6) Glad you admit to overexaggerating on ani. I considered your actions as a whole when I FoS'd you. If "as a whole" = "pattern of actions"...then yes, it's your pattern of actions I find suspicious.

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.05

havingfitz - 2 - yabbaguy, farside22
animorpherv1 - 1 - }|{opa
cjdrum - 1 - ToastyToast
startransmission - 1 - DeathRowKitty
Sundy - 1 - startransmission
ToastyToast - 1 - cjdrum
yabbaguy - 1 - animorpherv1
}|{opa - 1 - havingfitz

Not Voting: Sundy

With ten alive, it takes six to lynch.

Deadline: April 15.

V/LA: cjdrum, April 13-18

[farside22]

Yes...post 156 had reasons...as did #109 and #145.

First I hate people who use post number but not links. (1) it takes me a bit to get to the post (2) I think you have something to hide.

Lets look at each one of your "reasons"

farside...my suspicions of }|{opa and DRK are totally independant of each other. I can and do suspect them both. I just find the suspicion I hold of }|{opa to be more significant att than DRK. And how is anything I have done hypocritical? I'm voting who I think is scum....}|{opa isn't. I'm voting someone who has provided a lot of information to work with, }|{opa isn't. Where is the hypocrisy? And what makes my vote opportunistic? The fact I placed it? <headshake>

No reason here just mentions independent reasons for finding jora and DRK suspicious

I didn't have any suspicions towards }|{opa until his DRK GF post/Star vote. DRK seems to be overreacting IMO to a lot of people's comments and if it were not for the aforementioned }|{opa suspicion I would probably put my vote on him [DRK]. So I'll

FOS

DRK.
}|{opa however gets this: VOTE: }|{opa

The post is a list of the things that caught my attention as I caught up. The individual observations towards DRK did not outweight the one transgression I observed from }|{opa. If I think someone is scum...I'm going to vote them. I am not going to annoint someone as scum (the GF yet!) and then just FOS them and vote someone who has made all of two posts. As for voting the same candidate...I find }|{opa scummier ATT so the fact my current #2 is voting the same way means nothing (except possibly that they aren't both scum). And where are your policy lynch comments coming from? Did I say anything regarding a policy lynch?[/quote]

No reason

Post 109

}|{opa pushing DRK as a good cop lynch. Why keep mentioning a cop?
Don't like giving town reads so I won't. I didn't have any suspicions towards }|{opa until his DRK GF post/Star vote. DRK seems to be overreacting IMO to a lot of people's comments and if it were not for the aforementioned }|{opa suspicion I would probably put my vote on him [DRK]. So I'll

FOS

DRK.
}|{opa however gets this: VOTE: }|{opa

Also...I have a gut suspicion towards cjdrum atm based on random thoughts listed above.

one reason.

IE: There is only one reason in all those post that havingfitz has for voting and thinking Jora is suspicious.
I'm a page behind but so far at this point it's not moving.

[farside22]

And I finished. Nothing has changed from the TT/Cjd debate. I like cjd's thought process on TT. I don't agree with everything but the voting for lurkers then he votes for lurkers means cdj is reading the game and scum hunting.

[Sundy]

I need to go onto V/LA until Monday, with an emphasis on the LA. My senior thesis is due on Monday and I will try to check in while I'm writing, but it will mostly be when I'm trying to procrastinate.

[cjdrum]

Out of interest, what does V/LA actually stand for?

Also, if people are finding DRK scummy - why are there no votes on him? I guess it's because there are

more

scummy people, but everybody is on an even playing field except for them (and farside, and fitz). It's as if it's two or three cycles of "A votes B, because B voted C, because C voted D, ... because H voted I because they disagreed with something they said"... Is there anything to make of that? I can't see anything particularly obvious, but there's probably something to be gained...

[Nobody Special]

Sundy's V/LA is noted.

V/LA stands for Vacation/Limited Access, and there is a global thread

that no one really reads

for announcing your intentions.

[Jora]

@ Mod. It's time to replace animorpherv1.

I really don't like this slot. I see no reason for animorph to lurk that hard. I mean - he was here all the time! I hate him.

@startransmission. Where did you found "invisible text"?
"I have been lurking..." yes, "hard for me" not my problem - be good or replace out, "policy lynches" So what with policy lynches? Where did you saw one?
"Puzzled by this" - and thats all what you got?

@DeathRowKitty. What a nice person you are! I can't even FoS you. Just can't. I hope you not a scum.

Since animorph failed to pick up prod and very likely will be replaced I should
UNVOTE:
VOTE: startransmission

Now I briefly tell about my list of suspicions. In my notes each player gets own + and -. Besides the scummness which I count separatelly, I firmly prefer to vote for those people who have negative balance.
My watch list.
startransmission - fully negative, very scummy. Must die.
animorpherv1 - fully negative, very lurky. Must die.
DeathRowKitty - mixed, less scummy.
farside22 - negative and a little scummy.
yabbaguy - mixed, a bit lurky.

[Nobody Special]

Searching for a replacement for animorpherv1.

[Nobody Special]

bv310 replaces animorpherv1 effective immediately.

[havingfitz]

@ farside...

In response to your 1st quote of me - I hate it when people neither use links OR provide post numbers. Apologies that it takes you a few seconds to get to a post #. If I was hiding something I wouldn't have provided post numbers in the first place.

In response to your 2nd quote of me (my post 156) - First off...you are not posting them in the order that I mention them. I said I gave my reasons

"with my vote (post 109) and elaborated on them in post 145"

. Back to #156...you say I gave no reasons....I consider this

"I just find the suspicion I hold of }|{opa to be more significant att than DRK."

a reason. Not much of a reason but I provided more detail in the earlier posts already mentioned. I also provided a translation for your benefit afterwards, to no avail apparently,

"Translation...his vote on lurkerStar when he believes DRK is a mafia GF and directing a potential cop investigation."

. <-- I only need one reason to suspect/vote someone but note...two reasons are highlighted in translation.

In response to your 3rd quote (my post 109) and your 4th impaired-quote of me (my post 145) - You say no reason was given. Well...you cut off all the earlier comments I provided within post 109 (scummy of you) but I did say

I didn't have any suspicions towards }|{opa

until his DRK GF post/Star vote.

. Bold would be a reason. And in the messed up quote I said,

The individual observations towards DRK did not outweight the one transgression I observed from }|{opa. If I think someone is scum...I'm going to vote them.

I am not going to annoint someone as scum (the GF yet!) and then just FOS them and vote someone who has made all of two posts.

As for voting the same candidate...I find }|{opa scummier ATT so the fact my current #2 is voting the same way means nothing (except possibly that they aren't both scum).

This entire section explains why my vote is on }|{opa while the bold part explains (FMPOV) more specifically.

In response to your 5th quote of me (my post 109 again) - You say I gave one reason. I gave the primary reason along with my other thoughts on }|{opa. I only need one reason IMO to vote someone. Especially early in the game. I also question his mention of a cop (in 109) and have discussed this with }|{opa and elaborated on it in my Translation above.

tl:dr;

@farside...you have asked for the reason/s why I voted }|{opa. I have provided my reasons for my vote and IMO I have provided more reason for my }|{opa vote (combined with subsequent post-vote suspicions) then most of the other people with votes out. I'm not convinced }|{opa is scum by any means and I'm on the fence as some of his posts give me a town feel. However, I do not like not having my vote in play and until someone passes him I will keep it where it is. That said...your continued disdain of my vote (for whatever reason) and painting my vote as hypocritcal and opportunistic (which you have not responded to my question of) is bumping you up into contention on my suspect list. I.e.

FoS farside.

[farside22]

In response to your 2nd quote of me (my post 156) - First off...you are not posting them in the order that I mention them.

Sorry this wasn't on purposes. I copied each quote and put them in a note pad and had to leave. I forgot which post number was what and should have searched in order. This is why I say I hate links.
Second all 3 points you just bold. Are they not the same? I think the only difference from one bold to the other 2 is directing the cop. But all 3 are the same point. He voted lurkerstar over DRK while calling him the GF.

[havingfitz]

I'm highlighting the fact that my reason/s were provided more than once and in the quotes you claim no reason or one reason. The fact they are all the same is not important...the fact they were provided is. Like I said, you asked for my reason/s for voting }|{opa, I have provided my reason/s for voting }|{opa, and I have added to those reasons (post-vote). There is nothing hypocritical about my vote (one of your primary reasons for voting me) and I disagree that there was anything opportunistic in my vote. Why is your vote on me not opportunistic? Why was TT's vote on }|{opa not opportunistic?

[farside22]

@Havingfitz: First your vote is joining a BW you were number four vote with weak reasoning:

Votecount 1.03

L-1 }|{opa - 5 - DeathRowKitty, farside22, ToastyToast, havingfitz, }|{opa
animorpherv1 - 1 - Sundy
Sundy - 1 - startransmission
yabbaguy - 1 - animorpherv1

Not Voting: cjdrum, yabbaguy

Second my vote is number 2 on you for opportunist voting and being a hypocrite. Now adding that your not reading and making fluff to the list of reasons.

I asked you in 2 post to list more reason's for your vote. You acted like you stated more reason's which you have not. Your vote was weak and hypocritical. I already explained why, which you either are ignoring or skimming. You also as jora pointed out haven't talked about much of anyone in this game. You leave information out on your views and prodding of people.
Now you doing what I expect scum to always to. Look at what X did why are you pointing at them.
Well I have a town read on TT he's answered questions and I see scum hunting in his post. He ask questions and the whole you did argument with Jora was a town tell.

[havingfitz]

I'll type this slow for you farside.....

First off...I am reading what people wrote. Don't insinuate I'm not.

When you voted me this was the reason why,

"Saying a person has suspicion over one person then voting another and doing the same is hypocritical, which I learned isn't scummy, but opportunistic vote hopping on a BW. That is scummy.

AND

"If someone had a scummier read on one person over another they would vote that person, but when the reason to vote one person over another that is already 4 votes in is not only opportunist but scummy at that point."

At the time I placed my vote on }|{opa I only had a few suspicions towards him but they were more significant IMO than the things I took note of from DRK. I do not see why this concept is so difficult for you to grasp. It's like DRK has committed 5 or 6 misdemeanors and then }|{opa comes along and commits a felony.

In that analogy }|{opa is going to get the bulk of my attention. That is what is happening with my vote. He only had two points against him when I voted and they outweighed the numerous observaations I had on DRK. I never said I suspected DRK more or said I thought he was scum (or GF). Your reasoning is crap and is a misrepresentation of my vote on }|{opa. 1-2 suspicions is perfectly fine to place a vote...especially early in the game.

And are you saying the 4th vote on a player is more opportunistic than the 2nd or 3rd? If so...the 5 and 6th votes must really set you off

[farside22]

And are you saying the 4th vote on a player is more opportunistic than the 2nd or 3rd? If so...the 5 and 6th votes must really set you off

Nope didn't say that. I voted second on jora I know I'm town. I explained my read on TT.
As for 5th or 6 vote is would depend on what the people said and reason's they voted.
Are you going to sit here and say that scum don't vote for opportunistic reasons? Are you going to sit there and state that scum don't use weak reason's to case their votes?

I also listed other various reason I find you scum in my last post. And yes when I ask someone twice for

other

reason's they find a person scummy and I get nothing but the same garbage over and over I will accuse that player of not reading and skimming the game.

[havingfitz]

Are you going to sit here and say that scum don't vote for opportunistic reasons? Are you going to sit there and state that scum don't use weak reason's to case their votes?

I didn't say either of those statements. In fact I would say they do both things most of the time. My vote isn't opportunistic and my reason for voting }|{opa isn't weak. So what is your point? In fact, since you brought these two points up...I would say they both apply much better to your vote and subsequent, and IMO feigned, lack of comprehension.

I also listed other various reason I find you scum in my last post. And yes when I ask someone twice for

other

reason's they find a person scummy and I get nothing but the same garbage over and over I will accuse that player of not reading and skimming the game.

Other various reasons? You mean "'not reading" [misrep] and "fluff" [opinion...misrep]. Mmmmmmkay. My reason for voting }|{opa was not garbage and how many ways can I communicate 1+ reasons for placing a vote? I can't give more reasons when there are not more reasons for placing my vote. There wer a few more reasons after I placed my vote but that not what you asked. Capiche? No?

For continuing to push a non existent case and misrepping my actions...which are there for all to see.

VOTE: farside22

Don't ask me for more reasons becuase the ones mentioned above are all I have atm.

[Nobody Special]

Bump.