Mini1147-Royal Mafia at the Round Table (Game Over!)

[Maxous]

Do I get brownie points for not voting the moderator? Cause I'm cool like that 8)

Oh, and Hi all!

[Maxous]

I’m really shitty on D1, because I haven’t figured out how to play well on D1.

Oh, same here! This also applies to day 2, day 3, day 4 etc. etc.

VOTE: Rhinox
This is your birthday gift from me.

[Maxous]

Erratus' post came off as a joke to me. And a humorous enough one at that.

As for Oso pre-empting questions, I would'nt really consider it scummy, town also tend to consider how thier accusation can be refuted and sometimes move to nip it in the bud.
The fact that he started playing instead of merely coasting along is looking good so far. Even if it was a bit far-fetched. Leaning town as I doubt a mafia would make a speculative accusation like that so early.

As for TS - 3 null-tells and complimets Rhinox and Juls. Hmmm :/

[Maxous]

Apologies all, I was away for a bit.

Javert claims a Day-Vig says he is going to use it and Ender votes for him. This ability is easily provable.
What is the reasoning here? Javert cracked under the suspicion of not-answering questions and claimed a Day-vig to clear himself?

Next is scum trying to stay alive(Under virtually no pressure and an easy power to be caught lying about)
2) and 3) He's town but he's being a dick. But not really mafia though.

Votes Neccessary Evil for lurking - Lurking is a common way for mafia to throw suspicion on somebody.
It turns out this was'nt Lurking based on posts but based on the time from the last post - again...scummy. It's not based off content of posts
A couple of posts later he acknowledges lurkers are not always scum. But he voted for somebody because of it.
My top pick

EA's repsonse to Me=Weird was not answering his question and looked like a dodge.


Post 73 Ender defends EA from a question by Prosaurus
Post 156 EA defends Ender with the basis that scum don't get this emotional(they can fake it) or that he would be antagonising over a Day-Vog this much.
On the second point.. Javert seemingly suspects Ender(based off his vote). He claims Day-Vig, he says he is going to shoot. One would assume Ender is currently top of his list. Mafia Ender would be far more worried about Mr. Day Vig than Town Ender right at this moment.

Ender obviously did not weight the three possibilities equally. He clearly favored the scum-Javert situation, and felt the town-Javert situations were unlikely. This should be apparent to anyone taking an honest look at Ender, but it didn't occur to NE.

The implication I got was the he voted because Javert was "being a dick". He made an excuse for him.

EA votes for Prosaurus - okay the reasoning the was plausible.
However Ender voted for the same person with the same reasoning in the next post

These two would be my pick for mafia. Seem like a team. Individually Ender looks more suspicious than EA.
I will hold off voting Ender to avoid putting him at L-1

[Maxous]

@Juls: I read through the thread and I picked out the two people that seem the most suspicious. I realise others agree that Ender is suspicious (hence the 5 votes).
I don't have a third suspect at this moment
Unless you're asking for my town reads?

BTW why the heck should Me=Weird be attacking people?

[Maxous]

Oh nevermind, that question was asked above :/

[Maxous]

Actually,
@Javert: How are you going to go about this? Day-Vig somebody who is about to be lynched(effectively giving the town 2 lynches today) or will you use your personal discretion about who will be killed regardless of the amount of votes on him?

[Maxous]

That said, since we do have a way for scum to end the day before you can take a shot (self-voting at L-1), I don't see any way it can be avoided: You, and the rest of the thread (me included), have almost no choice but to hang the vigkill over the head of a player. At least until Javert's status has been confirmed.

I don't fully understand what you mean by "hang the vigkill over the head of a player"

I'm not saying we should put someone at L-1 now but it won't exactly be a disaster if Javert does'nt get an opportunity to shoot today. If a scum self-hammers..we have gotten rid of a mafia member. Happy days.
If used correctly it will be useful but we don't absolutly need it.

[Maxous]

Warning: Lots of quotes and such..

EA's repsonse to Me=Weird was not answering his question and looked like a dodge.

Whaaaaaaaaaaat? I didn't dodge shit from MW. Explanation etc, etc.

Okay I went back and read it and I misunderstood the initial question from Me=Weird. You did indeed answer the question.

As for scum being more worried about a dayvig claim, that's exactly my point! Why would scum see a player claim dayvig, and decide that it would be a fantastic idea to get into a gigantic fight with that player? Ender is clearly not worried about that! Hence, towntell.

He looked like he panicked to me, calling for everyone to just vote him already

Why would ender make an excuse for Javert?

Sorry, I was referring to EA making an excuse for Ender

For the record, I think Javert should shoot whoever he wants. I don't think shooting whoever gets the most votes is the correct way to play a vig.

Why is that not the correct way to do it?

I…what? This is mafia. The whole game is attacking people. Why did you write this?

Juls suspected you because you were adressing the town with your points rather than attacking players themselves.
I was asking why somebody should have to attack the player over a point. It's not the player you have to convince that he is guilty.

Maxous: You seemed like you had a theory on another player then dropped it and had a case on ender (that was already discussed) and EA. What is with the hmmm on TS then dropping it?

Yeah I thought with the "it's good to see Rhinox and Juls scumhunting" comment, he was trying to come across as pro-town too much. Then he did'nt give a read on anybody(they were all null-tells).
TS still has'nt really(his vote on Javert was because he was being anti-town), and had that 'don't claim PR's it's bad for the town etc.'
I'm starting to think that is just the way he is though.

Look at 138: "Start answering questions, i doubt your a DayVig." Ender used the D word. No not dayvig, the other one. Doubt. He

doubts

Javert is a dayvig. Not he's completely certain Javert isn't one. There's really no inconsistency here.

Twice, Ender said that he was certain that Javert was bluffing.

I very strongly disagree that Ender's lurker hunting was not scumhunting. You're right in that the activity overview isn't really sufficient to determine who's a lurker and who's not, but it's a recent addition that hasn't been fully explored, and I can see where someone would make the mistake of assuming you can find lurkerscum just using it. I really think that's what Ender did here.

Here
And I don't remember Ender following up on any of these 'lurkers'.

I considered voting Klazam too, but there's a better way of dealing with him: Hey Javert, you said you'd vig someone for 4 days without content?

Well Klazam has gone the entire game without content

, so you know what to do.

Calling for Klazam to be day-vigged because he is busy? Not because Klazam is scummy?
Now I'm more confident about my read on EA.
Really comes across as a mafia comment.

[Maxous]

@:Rhinox: Why is Ender an "easy target"?
And who are the scum that are speculating on his role?(in your opinion)

@Twistedspoon: Why do you think Necessary Evil is scum?

[Maxous]

@Rhinox: Because you called Ender an 'easy target' for scum to go after, but you never said who the scum are. Who is the opportunistic mafia?
TS was'nt voting for him(I think?)

Maxous: Can you do a break down on your views of the players in the game?

...I'll get started it then >_>

[Maxous]

Missed these from last time:

Why would ender make an excuse for Javert?

Sorry, I was referring to EA making an excuse for Ender

Okay, same question. Why would EA make excuses for ender?

Because they're mafia partners.
I tried to make that thought clear earlier: Defending each-other. Teaming up on Prosaurus etc.

Still working on this summary ^_^
....
=(

[Maxous]

Okay I decided to do a brief low-down on players.

Oso - Seems the most town, was'nt afraid to make early speculative accusations, is being quite helpful and balanced..yeah

Farside - Seems genuine in her attempts to scumhunt. Seen nothing suspicious off her really..I would think town.

Klazam - :/

Juls - Can't really figure her out yet.

Prosaurus - Has'nt said much in terms of content, but I think he's fine. He seems to be trying to help and does'nt seem to be lying in his posts. (Plus there is my distrust of the people who suspected him)

TwistedSpoon - Again not a great amount in terms of content. I thought he was trying too hard to look pro-town, with the X is bad for the town, Y is good for the town, stick to the guidelines etc. I'm beginning to think that is just the way he is though. I would say he also looks fine.
(Although I want to know why he voted NE)

Neccesary Evil - Seems to be making a genuine effort to question and find mafia, I don't agree with the case on him. Lean town at the moment I guess..

Me=Weird - Pretty much the same as above as Neccesary Evil.

Rhinox - I get a bad vibe from his posts in general. I find it ironic that he calls Ender the 'easy target' when his fos' have included Twistedspoon and Prosaurus. Gun to head, he would be my pick for No.3

I have (hopefully) explained my position on EA and Ender

Incidentally I found this during the re-read

. So at best its null for now, but I'll be watching to see how they continue to interact with each other.

This was in reference to EA and Ender.

@Rhinox: So, what do you think of thier interactions with each-other so far in this game?

[Maxous]

Oh I forgot Javert...I think he is town, I see no reason not to beleive his claim and his initial suspicion on Ender was reasonable.
He was suspected because he did'nt answer what he saw as pointless questions.(which fitted in with his 'blood from a turnip' comment previously)

[Maxous]

No, Klazam is scummy. Guess what alignment stands to gain from not posting any content ever? Hint: it's not town!

So Klazam was not posting as a deliberate mafia ploy?
Despite lurking like that being something which brings a lot of negative attention onto a player.

Question for you - why do the actions you are accusing EA and ender of make them scummy? In my experience, those things are not really things I see scum partners do, like, ever.

I think thier are scummy because I think they are mafia actions, no other reason.

I don't know why, but i have a good feeling Prosaurus is scum. I have no reason for this so i will not vote him though but i am noting that because if i get one of those in another game then i can detect scum.
@Prosaurus - I find it interesting that earlier you said you were a newbie, your playing alot better than a newbie you know?

You had a reason and voted here. Why is it different now?

[Maxous]

@TS: Again..why did you vote Neccessary Evil? Why is he mafia?

[Maxous]

well it was mostly a pressure vote. Saying so would kinda defeat the purpose of it though. That and I haven't seen to much towness from him

town until proven scum or scum until proven town? Tough choice, but my vote vote before NE wasn't doing anything anyways (I think it was on Javert)

Hmm well that does fit in with the pattern of thinking you have shown in this game.
I look forward to your longer post..


That is a very interesting case Oso has just presensted.
If Me=Weird flips mafia I will have to adjust my thinking a bit.

[Maxous]

I guess that explanation from Me=Weird makes sense.

@Rhinox: I explained a lot of it in this post.
Along with EA trying to get Javert to shoot Klazam - Mafia tend to use lurking to put suspicion on players.

vote parking on NE? Sure, as long as someone doesn't outshine his scuminess in my eyes.

Scuminess? Where did this come from? You said it was mostly a pressure vote.

It's not evident from his earlier posting that he ever thought that Javert was town, and if he was really thinking that Javert was town then it doesn't make sense to vote for him.

Yeah, about this. The strong implication I got from Ender's post was that Javert is either scum or town being rude and Ender would be willing to vote for him for either reason.
It goes with that 'well if he is actually town it's alright to vote for him anyway' reasoning that mafia like to use to justify votes.

@Maxous: Any reason your not voting anyone currently? Or not pressuring anyone with your vote?

I'm unsure who to vote for at this stage.

[Maxous]

Hmm well, that does fit in with this response.

@TS: I still don't get why you said NE was scummy when you said it was only a pressure vote though.

lol. I don't care what your claim is now. This post is scummy as hell. You're scum and I want you lynched regardless of your claim.

Really? And what is the difference between the response from TS and the response from Ender when he was effectively at L-1?

There is something off between Rhinox, Erratus and Ender. Having a CC for Ender means his period of grace is over.

Unvote

VOTE: Ender241

Well we agree on one. Max latest response on not knowing who to vote is odd. I don't see who there could be a problem.

If you have suspicion then that is good enough to vote.

I see his date of starting on MS.
Max have you ever had a mafia role on MS?

Bolded part - that is a matter of preference. I don't vote based on my 'suspicion of the day'.
There was no point in voting Ender in day 1 because of his claim and admitally about half of my suspicion on EA is based on them being a team.
No such issues anymore however =)

Yes I have had a mafia role here.

[Maxous]

What reasons?
You have'nt said them yet.

Also, TS - do you beleive Ender's cop claim?

[Maxous]

What reasons?
You have'nt said them yet.

This is directed to TS about Neccessary Evil by the way, not directed towards Oso. Oso ninja'ed my post.

Not that I disagree completely, I had and have some reservations about Ender BUT, how do you figure that TS's role is a direct counter-claim to Ender? I mean, they are identical but if the post of TS's you pointed out is a correct assumption based on what TS already knew about the set-up(his role). Having 2:1-Shot Cops isn't a real stretch.

Hmm okay maybe there could be 2 one-shot cops. I don't think so but it's not impossible.
Why I don't beleive Ender's claim?
His continued intention to use his claimed ability on Javert. Ender's entire suspicion of Javert is that he is lying about being a Day-Vig.(unless you count being rude). If I was in his position and did'nt want to waste my one time abilitiy, the obvious protocol I would take is to have Javert use his ability (therefore disproving the

entire reason

for his suspicion) and use the ability on somebody else. Instead he posted this
The fact that thought did'nt come into it, makes me feel Ender does'nt have that ability. Plus a one-shot cop is possibly the safest claim for a mafia to make.

I'd like more input on how Ender is automatically more scummy than TS because if you disregard their claims, both don't look very good but TS wins in the "scummiest" category hands down.

I disagree, I outlined earlier why I though Ender was mafia and since then the only post I can remember from him was his 'I think Prosaurus is scummy but I don't have a reason despite voting for him with a reason
I don't disagree that TS has'nt been the most trustworthy looking but one of the major suspicions about him was his rolefishing (which makes sense considering Ender claimed the same role as him).
And I am less comfortable with the personnel voting TS. His active lurking and not saying much just seem to be what he plays like.(Although I still don't like that vote on Necessary Evil)
I see TS as the lesser of two evils at this stage.

Point being, if you give

TS a pass based on role alone

, then you pretty much have to do the same with ender. Their roles are automatically mutually exclusive.

I am not, it is my disbelief of Ender.

Also:@Maxous.

"There is something off between Rhinox, Erratus and Ender."

Gut? Or do you have references you can use to at least give us an idea of why you think the interactions between the three are off.

In the bottom half of this post I showed why I thought Ender and EA were defending each-other and teamed up on Prosaurus. A one-way defence by town for another palyer, does happen. 2 way defending each-other, is a lot more suspicious. This is combined with EA making excuses for Ender like 'he was frustrated by Javert' and the following quote

Yeah, he thought Javert was bluffing, AFTER HE TOLD JAVERT TO VIG HIM AND JAVERT REFUSED. That is a completely different circumstance that happened well after the point I'm talking about here.

This is just not true (along with the post below it.)
Why is EA explaining all this about Ender in the first place? There was no 'well Ender would have to answer that' from him.

Rhinox calls Ender an "easy target but not neccessarily scum" which is the typical scummy looking townie. But TS is obv scum.

I guess you could call it gut though. Looking back, Rhinox does'nt come across as suspicious as I remembered though. Hmm maybe not so much him then.

Long post is long =_=

[Maxous]

See my comment to TS above. There's a difference. HUGE difference.

Do you mean this comment?
I don't get it :/

@Javert 309: 1. In addition, ender had done what I saw to be scummy, but

I'd also had a gut town feel from his posts.

I thought he acted scummier than the town feel, so I attacked him anyway. Plus, he seemed pretty eager to claim, the way a PR would.

*Reading back

I can definitely see ender scum, I know others have said this, but I'm re-stating it anyway.
......

Unvote, Vote: ender241

Post 146
Am I missing something here?

Unvote, Vote: Prosaurus

What about Neccesary Evil?
Is he still a scum read to you or have you dropped that?

[Maxous]

Javert's shot followed by a no-lynch.

Well we could do an unoffical lynch, and have him shoot that person.
I think Ender and/or TS may have already been unoffically 'lynched' though.

But I'm going to have to disagree with worrying too much about the power roles. Just play as normal and lynch.
They are indeed useful, but over-reliance on PR's can cost you a game.(Like say, assuming the 2 claimed cops are legit it would be plausible to have a innocent appearing mafia etc.)

But thinking about it.. I guess we should give the cops a night to receive(or fake :p) a result, espically since they are both one-shot. Since that is the case I will

Unvote:Ender241

The comment from Me=Weird and Farside's vote on Klazam have been bugging me since my previous vote on Ender anyway.
Voting because he had a null-read on TS? The way Pro pointed out the softclaim and TS asked about the claim afterwards was different.

[Maxous]

@Maxous maybe you didn't see this: "I thought he acted scummier than the town feel, so I attacked him anyway."? With the claim however, it changed that.

Reading the context of your 'attack', your vote was the fourth vote on Ender. The bandwagon was picking up steam and if Ender claimed Vanilla Town he would probably be dead already.
I would more understand if you asked Ender to clarify some of his posts/opinions to make sure.

At the very least if I had a gut town feel but was'nt sure and did feel he had scummy actions, I might stay clear of defending the player for however long as see who attacks the player. Stay off his lynch, see who votes and gain information on who was willing to condemn the player to a lynch and go from there. (useful if your gut town feel was correct)
But the main issue I have is that you

contributed

to his bandwagon when there was a very real possibility that he was going to be lynched.

Not sure what to make of this.. I'm thinking about it.

if Javert does kill soon then should Ender and I say who we're going to investigate before the day ends?

No.
To add to Klazam's point the mafia could have a framer or a lawyer to mess with your results.

I can't believe people are bypassing Klaz.

Hmm he did have a weird vote on Prosaurus.

@Klazam: Was the entire reason for that vote rolefishing?

@Juls: Do you not beleive Javert's claim?

@Farside: Do you think it is possible Javert has a day vig power and be scum?

[Maxous]

My vote on PS is because I find PS scummy, along with his rolefishing, yes.

What is scummy?
Looking through your posts all I found was

ooh, Another fisherman (PS). two scum so far here.

In your catch up post.

[Maxous]

I think thier are scummy because I think they are mafia actions, no other reason.

*sigh* I was asking you WHY you think they are mafia actions...

@Maxous: When I asked you this way back when, I really was hoping for an answer.

Answer:

@Rhinox: I explained a lot of it in this post.
Along with EA trying to get Javert to shoot Klazam - Mafia tend to use lurking to put suspicion on players.

It's not evident from his earlier posting that he ever thought that Javert was town, and if he was really thinking that Javert was town then it doesn't make sense to vote for him.

Yeah, about this. The strong implication I got from Ender's post was that Javert is either scum or town being rude and Ender would be willing to vote for him for either reason.
It goes with that 'well if he is actually town it's alright to vote for him anyway' reasoning that mafia like to use to justify votes.

Post 270

I outlined earlier why I though Ender was mafia and since then the only post I can remember from him was his 'I think Prosaurus is scummy but I don't have a reason despite voting for him with a reason
.............
A one-way defence by town for another palyer, does happen.

2 way defending each-other, is a lot more suspicious

. This is combined with EA making excuses for Ender like 'he was frustrated by Javert' and the following quote

Yeah, he thought Javert was bluffing, AFTER HE TOLD JAVERT TO VIG HIM AND JAVERT REFUSED. That is a completely different circumstance that happened well after the point I'm talking about here.

This is just not true (along with the post below it.)
Why is EA explaining all this about Ender in the first place? There was no 'well Ender would have to answer that' from him.

Post 297

[Maxous]

As I mentioned earlier, my pool is probably self-restricted to one of {ender241, Twistedspoon, and Me=Weird},

For what it is worth I would rather that Twistedspoon not be vigged.

I would lean town with Klazam at this stage but I still don't get why he is voting Prosaurus and it is making me a bit concerned.

[Maxous]

@Farside: Do you think it is possible Javert has a day vig power and be scum?

No. Not in a normal game at least. I only once seen a day vig be scum and I created the role in a theme game with the stipulation that the mafia could not kill that night. It was an unlimited day vig scum.

Okay.
Now why in the world would Javert be 'scummy' in your view if he shot less than 7 days before the deadline?

[Maxous]

Ender's flip is enough to make me have a serious re-think about my suspicions towards Erratus and Rhonox. I won't be voting for them today anyway.

It hurts the town if a vig shoots late in the day to do a lynch and I just can't see a town reason for vigging someone late in the game. Usually late game lynching = rushing to lynch a player and that doesn't give information all the time. Or sometimes there will be a no lynch.
I don't agree with no lynches. You always wonder if the person you were pushing was scum, your back on day 2 with the same theory and not always a lot of information.

Okay I get why you think it is better for the town that the vig came sooner rather than later.
But what I still don't get is why you would call his potential actions "scummy" (I.E. actions a mafia is more likely to perform) if you don't beleive a mafia would have a Day-Vig power in this game. That was unneccesary pressure at best, based on something you did'nt beleive.

I can understand some of the suspicions towards Klazam but I dunno still..
Saying that, I would'nt be overly bothered if he was lynched.
I would prefer the following lynch though.

VOTE: Me=Weird

[Maxous]

Ender's read was Prosaurus.

That's it as far as I remember.

[Maxous]

Nah.
At the end of the day it is an opinion. He could'nt of known anything for sure.

[Maxous]

Mine?

Hmm a bit more than leaning town. Don't know what the correct term to use for that is.

[Maxous]

and you're much too eager to lynch someone.

That is how we win the game..
Why are you voting Klazam then, if you're not eager to lynch somebody?

well I appreciate the case on oso, but i think his play in this game matches up with his town play in our last mini normal.

In what way?
Was he wihy-washy with his position on who he beleives and who he does'nt?

What strikes me about the quotes Erratus brought up is that Oso kept saying I beleive them

for now

. It should be a matter of beleiving them or not.. this actually comes across as leaving his options open. He's not really giving a position. I'm a bit disappointed I did'nt pick up on that sooner..but that is why the town work together with these things =)
I'll look back on Oso later when I've more time, along with that Ender bandwagon (I know I'm there, but still)

[Maxous]

Maxous, can you please consolidate why you think I'm scum into one post. Thanks.

Well I explained a lot of it in the first half of this post

You claim to of had a gut town read on Ender but you plainly bandwagoned.
How you reacted is not how I think that somebody with a gut town feel would act, even if the person was acting suspicious.

Those are my reasons however, when I was looking back, I did come across this quote which I must of skimmed over previously

a. I

didn't

think he was town. I've said already that I felt his scummy actions overweighed the gut town feel. All that happened was the claim changed that.

Ehhhhhhhh, hmm :/
Ugh.

@Me=Weird : Alright, why did Ender's cop claim push him from mafia to town? Why did'nt you think he was a mafia claiming cop despite his scummy actions?

[Maxous]

P-edit: How many times do I have to say that his scummy actions overruled the gut read, but the claim changed that. Why would scum claim 1-shot cop? It's a much rarer role than normal cop, and thus a weaker claim. Why then, would scum claim a role like that? Normal cop, or doctor, would be much easier.

I don't see how claiming a one-shot cop is enough to sway somebody who thought the claimee was mafia.
Claiming a one-shot cop as mafia has an advantage over claiming a normal cop or doctor. One result is all that's needed to be given.
Incidentally a cop claim is the best claim for a mafia to make since they can usually accuratly fake it (bar the existence of third parties or millers)

I'm keeping my vote.

[Maxous]

Hmm if Juls and Klazam are mafia together that would be a very bold move on Day 1. As mafia it would of been more pratical to allow Klazam to be lynched and keep hidden (IMO). I'll take the claim at face value.

Well this removes Klazam from being my alternate lynch(if I did'nt state that I meant to, can't remember).
Having a quick look at the vote count the other options are Oso and Neccessary Evil. I think Oso is town. NE.. null.
I will support a lynch on NE before Oso but I would much prefer a M=W lynch.
Unless somebody wants to quickly propose a different candidate for the lynch?

[Maxous]

what do you mean prove? say, what if i was roleblocked etc.

I don't like that you are already making excuses.

It's quite a plausible concern..

I also don't like that Prosaurus is so reluctant to believe the mason claim. I am, however, still deciding if it is inherently scummy to not believe the claim or not.

You think Prosaurus might be a mafia pushing for your lynch after a mason claim?
On Day 1.

About Quilford..he can catch up during the night period if needs be. He's certainly not going to be lynched today either way.

Why don't you want to lynch those people?
Also: VOTE: Erratus Apathos because you're my second scummiest suspect due to the "THEY ARE SCUM FOR SURE EVERYONE VOTE THEM!" etc.

Deadline is tomorrow and there is'nt a hope of Erratus being lynched.

indeed, with my theory of the one-shot theme, it would be rather risky for scum to claim masons in a game which we don't know masons exist

In fact, I've never had masons in any other mini normal game that I've been

I believe the claim; like Juls says, It's provavble

It's only provable by a flip.

Post counts are a terrible way to measure contribution.

Exactly

This is not. This is scum looking for some chink in the attack rather than defending or explaining the point being made against them.

He has tried to explain his thoughts from what I've seen.

[Maxous]

Let Neccessary Evil respond at least.
Those votes are too quick.

Apart from that, not much to discuss.The town decides to lynch NE or not at this stage. Discussing other suspects would be pointless until that is decided.

[Maxous]

Neccessary Evil calling Twistedspoon a liar makes things easier.

And, yeah, I agree with Maxous that the speed of my wagon is highly suspect.

how is it suspect when I have a guilty result

I'll explain. There are two scenarios.
NE is town, NE is mafia.

Farside and Rhinox voted without any consideration for the possibility that NE would either be framed or was a miller. They did'nt care.
If NE is town it could be that they blindly followed a cop result to bandwagon for a easy lynch on town.
If NE is mafia it could be that they know he is mafia and decided to vote straight away to cover themselves and be on the lynch.

Either way it is suspect.
I would include Quilford as well but he is clear due to the mason claim.

we've already lost one one-shot cop and we can't afford to lose another

But you already used your ability :p

And, yeah, I agree with Maxous that the speed of my wagon is highly suspect.

Anybody in particular?
Also : Are you confident Twistedspoon is lying about this? What do you think about the possibilty of a mafia framer?

@Farside and Rhinox: Why did the two of you instantly beleive the result from Twistedspoon? As far as I remember he was on both of your suspect lists.

[Maxous]

It hardly matters which way we do it; this isn't mylo.

It would be nice to get it correct the first time.
There is hardly a rush to get a lynch through, the deadline is a while away.

I still reckon EA is scummy, not to mention his vote hop bandwagoning.

And what about Farside's vote hopping?

Juls' player reads

That's good and all but which reads do

you

agree with?

Is it possible to have two scumteams in a normal game? I mean, I know there's some thing Rhinox said about having one unusual role, but I don't think a second mafia would apply there.

I don't know if it is possible but one night kill would suggest not

@TwistedSpoon: What is your general read on Farside and Rhinox in this game?

[Maxous]

Twistedspoon is at L-2

Going into WIFOM yes, but I'm having serious trouble beleiving that a mafia who claimed a one-shot cop would fake a guilty result on town. That makes little sense, one mislynch of the target and the mafia player is screwed. Good mafia play does not involve a trade off between town and mafia players. It would of made tons of more sense to clear one single town player than to trade off.
The only scenario I see TS being mafia is if NE is mafia as well. They decided to bus in an attempt to clear TS. Seems a bit risky but plausible.

Also when considering wheter or not TS is mafia you have to take his reaction to Ender's claim. Did he decide to fake a one-shot cop claim right after Ender-claimed with this reaction? Maybe, but it would of had to be quite off the cuff and quick thinking to breadcrumb the role, unless he has a one-shot mafia ability. And if he was mafia why ask if it was day or night? That makes sense if TS is legit because he would be confused because Ender that claimed the same role as him.
No offence to Twistedspoon but it would be serious quick thinking to do this in the next post

2 minutes

after Ender's claim.


I know TS and NE suspected each-other on day 1 and voted accordingly so I will take more of a look at that.

Apart from those 2, I'm not really buying Farside switching her vote because of the semantics of 'I think' and considering the possibiltiy of a framer.

[Maxous]

Really why do you believe it?
Also my suspicion of TS yesterday and his post (which I believe is a scum slip) = not buying it doesn't make sense to you.

Exactly. You had all this suspicion of TS from yesterday.
He comes out with a guilty. You instantly vote for NE, despite your suspicion. Because TS suspected NE yesterday.
TS says 'I think' he is mafia, immediatly correcting it as 'I know' unless there is a framer but he is confident about it.
And that is all it takes for you to change your mind about voting NE? It's suspect. You changed your stance too easily over little.

point.
At Maxous and anyone else in the game. Have you ever seen a person claim cop and question it?

Yes.
And by "question it" you mean wondering if there is a framer? How can a cop know for sure?
Even if you are a cop the only people that know for sure are mafia. There is usually a possibility that your results can be manipulated, unless the set-up states otherwise.
The reason I have'nt voted NE is in case there is a framer. With TS voting NE yesterday it is feasible the mafia could accurately guess who TS would investigate.
That being said I currently don't think so, but the possibility is worth exploring.

A one shot cop that questions their sanity in a normal game? Really why? This is not a bastard theme game.

He did'nt.

[Maxous]

@Farside: You took that bolded quote completely out of context here
He was not questioning his sanity he was telling NE 'either you prove this or your scum.'
Which is ironically the kind of certainly you state is absent from him(which is why you said you changed your vote)

EA: Did you read the link that Jav posted from TS's game and compare the fake claim from that game and this? Same question to Maxous?

Nope.

To those who argue that TwistedSpoon has "no reason" to fake a guilty:

If we assume a scum-group of three players, and a nightkill on a Townsperson every night, then scum need

two

mislynches to win the game while we need three

correct

lynches to win the game. In this situation, the scum can play a game of attrition: they are more than happy to make a one-for-one trade. If scum can get us to mislynch today, then we will be in a perpetual state of Lynch-or-Lose, which is very much to scum's advantage.

But there was no guarantee that TS was going to be lynched today. How many people were willing to vote for him at the end of Day 1?

I'm not saying its a town tell, I'm basically saying this:

But you did say it was a town-tell

Here's another reason why TS is town:
etc. etc.

I'm saying, its very obvious scum are trying to get TS mislynched first.

I also think so.

[Maxous]

There's no reason for him to think that there is a framer, or for anybody else to think that. Cop sanity is guaranteed in normals. TS was expressing doubt in his guilty result to give him an out. When I flip town, he'll insist that there is a framer or something that altered his result. He knows he'll be lynched if he doesn't give himself some kind of out.

He did'nt express doubt about the result.

Do you have any reason to think there is a framer? Does anybody? How do you suggest we explore this possibility?

Well I don't have a reason to but there was no point in rushing into a lynch without exploring the possibility. We're not short on time.

The only way to explore the possibiltiy is seeing if there is enough reasonable doubt about yourself being mafia

[Maxous]

Although this suggestion may sound insane because it would be horrible scum play but do you believe this could potentially be a buss?

Why would it be horrible scum play?

5. The fact you're attempting to use the why isn't he lynched yet card when you can see how very clearly this isn't an easy choice given both of your play throughout the game.

Why is'nt it an easy choice?
Do you think Neccessary Evil has acted suspicious then?

[Maxous]

Yes, I do indeed believe NE's defence has been suspicious, I stated so earlier.

Hmm okay.

Anyway I feel this day has went on long enough I don't think we're going to get a lot more out of it without a flip.

VOTE: Necessary Evil

[Maxous]

Oh right I forgot to mention this..

NE is on

L-1

now

Just in case..

[Maxous]

Welcome Locke.

Are mafia day-vig's even allowed in normal games? It seems like a mechanic that would'nt be

normal.

[Maxous]

Alright re-reading day 2, double-checking my initial reads and so-forth.

@Quilford: NE could of self-hammered for the simple reason of he saw no way out and just wanted to end it all.
But yes ,he could of also self-hammered to avoid putting any of his buddies in danger.
Point is, I don'y think that would be a sufficent reason to suspect Farside.
P-Edit: That latest reason is more plausible

Hmm not sure what to make of that Prosaurus comment.

@Farside: Putting what together?

[Maxous]

Ugh, nyan cat :/

Anyway, looking at Farside22's behaviour on day 2..

- First was instantly votes NE after TS' guilty. She later stated this was because she beleived TS' claim due to him suspecting NE the whole day.

- Then we get into the 'I think' issue, where she says TS made a slip and covered himself by saying there might be a framer. After instantly beleiving TS about the guilty.

- I pointed out that I was sceptical about this change of mind about beleiving TS and she responded by saying it was because she suspected TS yesterday and called myself and TS a scum team together. Seems like deflecting. Also if she suspected TS yesterday to the point where she did'nt really beleive his claim, then I am again confused about instantly voting NE.

- She also took TS' response to NE of "so unless you can prove that the mafioso have a framer or I am an insane cop without knowing so then you're mafioso" out of context. She claimed TS was doubting his insanity but he was'nt. He was basically saying to NE "you are mafia"

- This last post is the most interesting. She claims she is having a hard time beleiving there is two one-shot cops. So why did she beleive it in the first place when she voted NE?

- She also claims that "I would think TS scum would be smart enough to get an innocent on another player then bussing and leaving no outs."
Then why argue that TS was scum in the first place? Or am I misunderstanding something about this?

- Lastly, point of interest : Farside and NE were on the same bandwagon 4 times in this game - (Ender241, Twistedspoon, Me=Weird, Twistedspoon.)

In conclusion: I think she saw the guilty on NE and instantly voted to be seen on the lynch. Then she seen an opportunity to turn around the bandwagon on TS when EA and NE reacted by pointing the finger at TS.
If she was as spectical of TS as she claims she was then she would of reacted like Erratus did. If she beleived that TS was genuine about his guilty on NE because he suspected NE all Day 1 then I don't see why she would change her mind like she did.

VOTE: Farside22

[Maxous]

Javert was pratically confirmed town. I know Rhinox suspected him but there was very little chance of him being lynched.
No offence to Quilford but Javert would be seen as the stronger confirmed town player.(He seems quite experienced).
Maybe once NE flipped scum perhaps they feared Javert would turn his attention away from TS unto everyone else.
But that's just my speculation.

There's a couple of 'X and Y might be mafia' but no real reasons given yet to look at :L

[Maxous]

Duplicity(Gorilla) could be right about Prosaurus. I don't see any reason to think that this game would be breaking the norm of mafia only talking at night.
To be honest when I first played here I also thought mafia had day-talk - me and my buddy were posting during Day 1 for a while >_>

[Maxous]

@Locke:
Day 1 - What changed between my posts of 'slight town' to 'null' was that Ender(dead),Erratus and Rhinox were no longer my suspicions. When they were, I thought EA was town. When they were were'nt I was'nt as sure of him (due everybody but Me=Weird being stronger town reads. Well, Juls also but she claimed mason :I)

Day 2 - First thought was wait to see if EA claimed miller. I said something to the effect of 'that makes things easier' when he did'nt.
Next thought was to not jump into a lynch in case there was a framer (I thought it possible because of two seperate cops and the mafia would be able to figure out TS' target easily). As I said at the end of Day 1, I was null on him, I did'nt have any particular reason to think he was mafia.(apart from the guilty report).
So, okay I can see why there is no clear evidence to you that I was trying to figure out his alignment as I was'nt posting all my thoughts about it in the thread, but I

was

assessing what NE posted.

"So the underlying implication is that he does think NE is scum"

By that stage, yes. NE started saying things "give me one reason why TS is town", "he would be lynched if he did'nt claim a guilty" and he also took TS' "I think" comment out of context (quite purposely). EA was accusing TS of doubting his report while also accusing TS of wanting to lynch him too fast(an indicator of confidence in his report). Through comments like this I began to think NE was indeed mafia.

I had pratically already decided I was going to vote NE before the end of the day 2 period, at the time I responded to his question about exploring the possibility of a framer. (the bolded quote).
But he asked how do you explore the possibility of a framer? And my answer

is

the way you explore the possibility(well in most cases).


In hindsight, I should of announced my decision earlier and made it clearer to avoid this confusion. But honestly I was far more interested in what Farside,Rhinox and Duplicity were saying. I was trying to figure out which of them are likely mafia.(Espicially when Farside and Duplicity started pointing the finger at Twistedspoon)
I saw it as more advantageous to not commit to voting NE at the time(to keep them talking). I only voted for him when I felt we were'nt going to get a lot more out of the discussion that day.

The next post he segues into casting doubt on both Farside and Rhinox regardless of NE's alignment:

FYI - I stand by this.


Questions:

@Duplicity: You mentioned you were having serious doubts on EA? What doubts?
Also if you are regaining a town-read on EA(locke) does that mean myself and twisted are the mafia pairing then?

@Farside: How do you feel about Twistedspoon alignment after EA's flip?

@Rhinox: Do you have any reason why you beleive Farside is town apart from the Javert kill?
Also, you said you agree about Locke on his assesment of myself? With all of his points or just the conclusion?
Is there any points you disagree?

@Twistedspoon and Prosaurus: Number one suspect for mafia please. ^_^

I will get to Farside's response next time.I already spent too much time with this post :/

[Maxous]

Hurm Prosaurus using 'I have'nt paid much attention to the thread' card... bleh but I've had a town read on him from day 1.

Unless I missed something, which seeing LL still talking tells me I haven't, EA hasn't flipped so I have no feel for it.

Yeah..I fail.

I meant to say after NE's flip.

ESPECIALLY not when 1 of them was guaranteed to get lynched either yesterday or today.

Who?

Farside and Neccessary Evil?

Let me ask you this: if NE was such an obvious target for TS, why do you think he was still given the chance to use his investigation?

3 confirmed town in this game. Thier choices for night kills has been forced.
I was a bit surprised he was'nt roleblocked though.

[Maxous]

Okay quick before I go.

Confirmed town - unlynchable

Cop claim - still lynchable. Espicially considering the level of suspicion on TS during day 1. Ender got killed on day 1 despite claiming cop.
I can only assume the mafia does'nt have a roleblocker.

That would be my speculation.

[Maxous]

@TS: Why do you think Farside is mafia?

Why are we even talking about TS today? We shouldm't even be considering lynching him today. If he's still alive in LyLo, then we can argue whether or not he's scum.

*does'nt get it

What is the difference when we do it if we determine TS the most likely to be mafia?

[Maxous]

I think Twistedspoon is town.

~~There is nothing more useless in this world than an unasked question~~ O:)

Even if I read somebody as town I will question them if I would like something explained. There is always the possibility my read of that person's alignment is wrong.

And just because I read somebody as town does'nt mean I don't want thier suspicions and votes explained.

[Maxous]

Just skimmed as I'm kind of low on time.
I will answer farside about TS tomorrow. As far as I remember it was his reaction to Ender's claim and his thoughtline about how to find mafia was consistent.(with his 'X is bad for the town', 'Y is good for the town' set of rules etc.) I'll elaborate next time.

@Prosaurus: Why is Farside scummy?

@Duplicity: Have you explained why I am mafia? I don't remember it.

[Maxous]

Wow, sorry did'nt realise the deadline was so close. I'll get working on this game tonight (from now-ish).
Don't want to decide the lynch at the last minute(not a good idea from previous experience).. I just wanna go back over some things first.

[Maxous]

Took too long unfortunatly, I'll have to explain in detail tomorrow (I know.. deadline)

It is unlikely TS and NE were bussing each-other Day 1. TS is likely town.
I have a strong town read on Erratus and Locke.
I have a town read on Oso, not so much on Duplicity. However, I still think that slot is town.
Quilford is confirmed.

2 of Farside/Rhinox/Prosaurus

We have to successfully lynch twice out of 3 lynches. Lynch those 3 and I beleive we will get the mafia team.
My first suggestion is Farside and Rhinox due to some of NE's comments towards Prosaurus trying to shove suspicion on him for weak reasons while Farside's and Rhinox's interactions with NE almost seemed like casual discussion rather than scumhunting or NE putting suspicion on either of them. Particulary Farside and NE.
I have a small feeling Rhinox was being a bit over the top with his convincement that NE is mafia after the guilty with his 'classic scum tell here' 'omg this is so scummy' etc.
Rhinox and Farside's interactions on Day 2 was interesting and particulary from Farside's side really did'nt seem genuine trying to accuse Rhinox of double standards when he clearly was'nt and questioning why he suddenly switched his mind about TS when there was a good reason for a switch.
Hmm yeah I could be wrong about Rhinox but I'm confident about Farside.

I'm content with my vote.

It's hard to explain why I thought TS was town on Day 1, i just did. I seen his posts as genuine even if they were'nt elaborate. Simply a gut read I guess.. I just found him to be consistent in the way he approached the game and tried to see if people were mafia.
And yeah, his reaction to Ender's claim and behavious afterwards looks like he actually has the same role as Ender. I beleive his claim.

[Maxous]

Oso/ Duplicity

Straight into business, called a scumteam - slight town tell for me.
NE has a go at Oso. I don't think NE would have a go at his buddy this early with little pressure on him. Town tell for me. NE picking at Oso again
This post again looks town
Even though it was wrong posts like these give me a good feeling about the slot. Unless Oso is just really good at faking.
Oso looking more town
This post looks scummy
Point number 3 is important here. Because here he contradicts it with the possible scum pairings Here again That is'nt consistent.
Looks scummy. The attitude seemed to change too easily.

Prosaurus

Plays a 'I'm new' card - don't like it
I'm new so I don't have reads - don't like it again.
Tells Javert to day-vig him. Looks town as mafia would likely be more hesitatant to do that.

However

, interestingly he mentions in this post that "people who care about being killed were lynched". So I would'nt rule out that Prosaurus bluffed that comment.
NE calls Prosaurus out on active lurking. Would NE accuse his buddy of active lurking? Hmm not so sure.
I don't like his change out of thought about Javert between here and here
This post looks townish
Playing the 'new' card again >:(
Looks town. Still hung up on the EA, ender, rhinox scumteam.
NE calls one of Prosaurus and Me=Weird scum here. NE is being opportunistic here while uncommital, this makes Prosaurus look town.
Looks moar town
Expresses doubt on the masons when everyone else beleives them - Looks town. Stuck to his guns rather than sheep opinion.
Sticks to EA for vote hopping - looks scummy actually. That was an unfair accusation.
Says he is thinking it through. Did'nt look to be though. Never voted

Erratus/LL

I like this post - Looks town
Bandwagon starts on Ender..Erratus defends Ender and accuses NE. Looks a town tell
Takes a dislike to - looks town
Looks like a town post
Erratus' hammer on Me=Weird was very town looking.
This slot is town

Farside

Calls NE a null read. It would be a safe position to have on your buddy under slight pressure.
Says she can't see the possibility of 2 one-shot cops. Then look at this. I can't get over this point. Particulary when she changes her mind like this
Says quite little about NE. Locke mentioned points about this.
This post looks fake Is she bussing?
My points about Farside on Day 2
This vote looks quite opportunistic.

Twistedspoon

A lot of fluff posting on Day 1. Calls out people who he sees as not posting much and votes Javert for not answering questions. Also quite a bit of rolefishing. Despite himself accusing others such as prosaurus for rolefishing. Looks contradictory => suspicious
This quick reaction to Ender's claim.This explanation for his reaction/ Does make sense. So does this
Votes NE for lurking.For pressure reasons Bussing? At the end of this post calls for 'more posting' from NE and others. Why mention NE? There were people who did'nt post much including myself. This seems weird. NE replies by accusing TS of active lurking and votes for him as well. TS later states he found NE scummy upon re-reading.
Ugh, calls EA's point false when it is'nt -Don't like this.
Has One or two digs at NE - looks town.
After Farside votes NE calls TS obvscum - looks a town tell.
TS looks more town due to this
Interesting meta from Oso
Says he slipped up as scum due to role speculation. I don't think he would make the same mistake again - town looking.
More digs on TS by NE

Rhinox

Did'nt say much early game. Calls Ender and easy target and says he is the typical scummy looking townie. Never gave any specific reasons, uneasy about this. Did'nt question anybody who was on Ender's wagon either. In the same post he says EA and Ender are doing things that scumteam usually does'nt do. Hmm a slight scum and a town feeling from the same post.
Said we would of had a confirmed town Ender - this actually looks scummy to me. We would'nt of.
Does'nt give an opinion on NE. But says along with Me=Weird he would be willing to lynch him for information. Looks town. Buss your buddy with such reasoning? Unlikely.
Says Javert could be mafia due to set-up speculation.
Had a couple of posts that looked over the top. - Here, here, here, Can't help but wonder if it was intentional
This post looks town.
Quite unsure what to think about his drop in suspicion of Farside. If they were bussing would he do that?

By the way Locke Lamora here is a post in Day 1 of myself mentioning the lawyer/framer possibility. It did'nt come out of nowhere see?

Sorry for the length. Decided I should detail my views at this point.

Conclusion?:

I think Farside is mafia.
I think Duplicity is her partner and Oso fooled me day 1.
Locke has to be town.
I highly suspect Twisted is town.
I think Prosaurus is town.
Still unsure about Rhinox but would rather lynch Duplicity and Farside first.

[Maxous]

Oh, I did'nt realise I'm at L-1.

I'm Vanilla Town .

[Maxous]

Knew that was coming.
Well done to the mafia team, you done very well.
I thought both sides played good.

I have my doubts that faking a guilty on NE was the best move in that situation but it all worked out I guess =D