Newbie 1086 (GAME OVER)

[projectmatt]

Ah, I'm excited to finally see this start of this. This is my first game but I've played several hundred games of mafia on another website so I think I'll understand the basics, at least. This site seems to have the same basic terminology that most mafia games do, so let's get this started.

Vote:ZengarZombolt

for having a username that will be a pain to type out through the course of this game.

[projectmatt]

VOTE: Rocky. RVS is certainly not devoid of information and anyone floating the theory it is must be scum.

I assume that this was a joke? If it's not, then let me know and I think it could serve some very interesting discussion.

Unvote

because the fact that several votes are now on someone I was attempting to RVS makes me very nervous.

Vote:Sisterman

because I haven't seen much from her and I'd like to see her give her two cents.

[projectmatt]

RVS is certainly not devoid of information and anyone floating the theory it is must be scum.

I assume that this was a joke? If it's not, then let me know and I think it could serve some very interesting discussion.

Unvote because the fact that several votes are now on someone I was attempting to RVS makes me very nervous.

@projectmatt
Zombolt had only two votes on him. Mine and yours, yours was placed after mine. Why are you nervous now about having two votes on a person when you weren't when you voted at first?

If you look at the time frames, mine was posted very quickly after yours. I was typing my post out when you had made yours, and then I scrolled up and saw several mentions\votes of Zheng. In other words, I didn't pay attention to the fact that it was only two votes and not three, which is what I thought it was.

With that being said, I prefer asking random questions over RVS in order to get the game going. I find it hard to point out when a reaction to being voted is "scummy". In RVS, the mafia knows that no full bandwagon is going to start and therefore they have nothing to worry about when they are voted. They don't even have to respond. Later in the game, they do, but right now I find it slightly invalid.

[projectmatt]

I don't get why it made you nervous...

you said mafia know no full bandwagon in RVS is going to start but then said the votes were making you nervous?

Unvote

because the fact that several votes are now on someone I was attempting to RVS makes me very nervous.

the mafia knows that no full bandwagon is going to start and therefore they have nothing to worry about when they are voted. They don't even have to respond. Later in the game, they do, but right now I find it slightly invalid.

makes no sense does it?

that sounds like nervous mafia to me really

unvote
vote:ProjectMatt

So if there never was a real reason that it would take off, then why get nervous about it?

Once again, caution. Obviously the majority vote isn't going to spontaneously fall on one person, and I stand by this statement. It's just the fact that I thought three votes were on Zhang that made me very cautious.

Your attempts at scumhunting are pretty odd to me. Now, presuming that I was mafia who just a made a mistake, what would I be "nervous" about, as you say? I'm curious as to what your reasoning is.

Bad logic could be a scumtell, but overcaution isn't. Jumping on tiny mistakes, on the other hand, is a little fishy.

IGMEOY

I disagree, actually. Mafia is very careful and precise as to what they say. I generally find that when someone is dumbtelling, it's a slight towntell.

Ok, I am a fellow SE. As such, you can expect me not to teach you how to play. I will not hold back. I will play as if you are all non noobs.

Now to begin.

First off, I don't like how Zengar voted the mod. A random vote is one thing (as it at least gives us connections later), but voting the mod is worthless. Scum points there.

I also do not like Jason's post 22. Preemptively giving an excuse (3am comment) for not knowing what rocky meant.

Next I do not like matt's 26. Implying that he is town is pretty scummy. ("Scum do not react to bandwagon, I am nervous of a bandwagon"= I am not scum).

vote: projectmatt

No, this is not an OMGUS, but something about this post slightly bothers me. How does voting the moderator give any more scum points then just voting a random player? It's a mod, but it's still a random vote. No different from any other RVS. I'm curious as to why you find it special.

Sorry, but from my point of view, I am town, and my wording will naturally come out in that way. I can't really help that.

[projectmatt]

I disagree, actually. Mafia is very careful and precise as to what they say

.

I don't get why it made you nervous...

you said mafia know no full bandwagon in RVS is going to start but then said the votes were making you nervous?

Unvote

because the fact that several votes are now on someone I was attempting to RVS makes me very nervous.

the mafia knows that no full bandwagon is going to start and therefore they have nothing to worry about when they are voted. They don't even have to respond. Later in the game, they do, but right now I find it slightly invalid.

makes no sense does it?

that sounds like nervous mafia to me really

unvote
vote:ProjectMatt

So if there never was a real reason that it would take off, then why get nervous about it?

Once again, caution. Obviously the majority vote isn't going to spontaneously fall on one person, and I stand by this statement. It's just the fact that I thought three votes were on Zhang that made me very cautious.

Your attempts at scumhunting are pretty odd to me. Now, presuming that I was mafia who just a made a mistake, what would I be "nervous" about, as you say? I'm curious as to what your reasoning is.

note the bold...

he says scum are careful and precise in what they say... then says about how he is cautious..

Yea, scumslip!

So? I'm sorry, but that's not even close to any kind of slip. Are mafia not careful and precise? Don't try to tell me that they aren't. It doesn't mean that everybody who is slightly cautious is scumtelling. I've been just as cautious as everyone else in this game, including you. With your line of reasoning, I could suspect you.

A mod vote is scummy whereas a random vote is not. The mod is not scum, therefore voting the mod is the same as not voting at all. Not voting does not give town information (early game scum distancing for instance). Voting someone, even if they say it is random, is still forming connections for later.

Post 31- Again saying you are town without trying to prove it. Plus the whole- This isn't OMGUS, but... seems a bit like preemptively trying to defend your post against being called OMGUS = scummy.

While making that post, I actually thought that the mods were playing also. This is my first game here, so I hope you can at least excuse that as an embarrassing mistake.

Also, prove to me that you're town. Do it. Right now. You can't, can you? You can say you're town all you want, but you can't prove it. The only "proof" is in the words that you say, and the things that you do.

Ok, back from my long weekend –

Well last time I checked RVS standed for Random Vote Stage, so yeah.

I think this has already been handled but the theory behind Random Number Generators being scummy is as follows –

A valid vote, regardless of RVS or not, betrays something about the players make-up. Scum, especially have sometimes been known to RVS their partner as a clumsy distancing tactic. Putting your vote in the hands of a randomizer is somewhat seen as an attempt to avoid laying psychological footprints.

I don’t necessarily agree that it is a strong tell but I have seen it from scum before.

The same logic applies to invalid votes (like Mod votes in a non-bastard game). By specifically not voting for anyone you don’t risk alienating a player with a vote (even an RVS vote) and don’t give away any information unnecessarily.

Since the game is on, I'm gonna wait to see the other people's actions are since you know, lurking is quite scummy.

Please elaborate. You are going to sit back passively and let others make moves?

--

I assume that this was a joke? If it's not, then let me know and I think it could serve some very interesting discussion.

No, it is not a joke. Scum have been and will be caught by RVS votes / posts. RVS is, IMO, just a name we use for the part of the game where things get moving. Scummy play can occur then and to dismiss it just because “its RVS” isn’t good Town play.

With that being said, I prefer asking random questions over RVS in order to get the game going.

1. How are random questions going to cause pressure to scum any more than votes?
2. Why didn’t you being your first post with some Random Questions?

--

Implying that he is town is pretty scummy.

Why? The only person a Town player knows 100% to be Town Day 1 is themselves. It is in the role PM from the Mod. I’d like insight into why inferring you are Town is more likely to come from scum.

--

I ask because it makes a difference. A noobtell is much more likely to be a scumtell if there's no noob behind it.

1. What is a noobtell?
2. Why is scummy play from a player suddenly change based on his join date. I had over 2 years of Non-MS forum Mafia experience before I came here. Why should, in my first game, I have been given the benefit of the doubt for being New when I had copious experience? Why should it ever be assumed that anyone new to MS doesn’t have Mafia experience?

I'm making so many mistakes that I probably deserved to be lynched anyway. I thought that, once again, moderators\IC always started with whatever it was that we were doing, regardless of it was an RVS or asking random questions.

Also, I will stand by the fact that I believe question asking can also put pressure on people and get the game going. I can't exactly show you examples, but basically, my line of logic is in the fact that scum is careful. In a lot of cases, they do what exactly they are told to do. If a clear player tells them to jump, they jump. I believe a lot can be found in those kind of things, but it's hard to present without actually doing it, and we already have an interesting conversation going.

Anyway, I've been unexpectedly busy and so far haven't been paying close attention to posts other then the ones I'm responding to. I'll review everything with a careful eye and point out contradictions\things I believe are scumtells tonight, probably.

[projectmatt]

Okay, huge post time.

I won't bother quoting, instead I'll just say the usernames of the people that have made a certain post, to avoid confusion.

@Rocky - post 16
This is an RVS. You claim that by him voting randomly, and using a randomizer, we can't gain any information from his vote. I presume that you would know by now that the point of an RVS is not to find an RVS by the methods of who someone votes, but by how the person reacts to the vote. You did the exact same offense by voting somebody because they have no avatar. It's essentially just a random choice. But yet, you claim that him doing it randomly was "as scummy as possible". I want you to elaborate more on this.

Also, a few posts below that, you claim that you don't believe RVS has any information, but yet you still participate in it. Why is this?

@Jason, post 22
I'm sorry, I can't really point out specifically what it is, but something about the wording has been gnawing at me the moment I first read it. It seems like you are almost afraid to question him, so you use the fact that it's 3:am in order to make up an excuse. You really came off as nervous to me in this post.

The same thing can be seem in post 33. A sense of nervousness, and then an unrelated "lol" right after. Note that at the time, it was in the afternoon, and therefore it being late can no fit as a valid excuse.

@Rocky, post 43
It was page 2, and yet you're attempting to rush the three other players into voting. That just seem odd to me. I believe that discussing and searching first is better then blindly voting. It makes me feel like you're afraid to look too far into this.

@Mogri, post 45
Although I do not believe that the BW on me started for a very good reason, I'll go ahead and say that you seem to be over exaggerating what Rocky was doing. He wasn't "just trying" to get on a bandwagon. Did you not realize or read his reasoning's?

@Jason, post 48
You posted a while ago claiming that I slipped, and at that point, I had yet to respond. But for some reason you claimed that I have drastically moved up in your scum meter. Why the sudden change inbetween those few posts?

Jason, your post number 54 is confusing to me. I'm not sure what you are implying. I am a frequent player of epicmafia, so yes, I have experience in this game, but mafiascum is unlike this website. There are no such things as RVS's or even asking random questions to get discussion going. Mods can play games as freely as they desire.

Anyway, this is all I have for the moment. I unvote sisterman and withhold future voting until I see more responses and discussions.

[projectmatt]

A mod vote is scummy whereas a random vote is not. The mod is not scum, therefore voting the mod is the same as not voting at all. Not voting does not give town information (early game scum distancing for instance). Voting someone, even if they say it is random, is still forming connections for later.

Post 31- Again saying you are town without trying to prove it. Plus the whole- This isn't OMGUS, but... seems a bit like preemptively trying to defend your post against being called OMGUS = scummy.

While making that post, I actually thought that the mods were playing also. This is my first game here, so I hope you can at least excuse that as an embarrassing mistake.

Also, prove to me that you're town. Do it. Right now. You can't, can you? You can say you're town all you want, but you can't prove it. The only "proof" is in the words that you say, and the things that you do.

This also answer's MOI's question to me. Implying that you are town is scummy. Town do not try and imply that they are town, they show it through their actions. Scum on the other hand have anti-town actions mixed in with town-looking actions. By implying that they are town, they try to mitigate their anti-town actions.

Also-

Ah, I'm excited to finally see this start of this. This is my first game

but I've played several hundred games of mafia on another website

so I think I'll understand the basics, at least. This site seems to have the same basic terminology that most mafia games do, so let's get this started.

While making that post, I actually thought that the mods were playing also. This is my first game here, so I hope you can at least excuse that as an embarrassing mistake.

Tell me, on this other site were the mods players? Didn't that seem to be a bit unbalanced if the mods know all of the roles in the game and who has them?

Ya... lying scum.

The mods actually were indeed playing. If you don't believe me, go check the site out. Clearly the people who have been trustworthy enough to be made a moderator are trustworthy enough to enjoy a game.

You're doing something illogical by assuming that I'm "lying" because I've played games on another website. The playing style is much different from here, and once again, the evidence for that is within the website.

Ok so I have read up and have a few comments off the top of my head. I will have to reread to get in depth with some things though.

Before I start questioning anything, a general little nit pick that I have is the way people quote. Either people have large quote boxes or they say something like, "post 45- blah blah blah." This is annoying because then I have to go look up post 45 and read it then read his response. I realize how inconvenient it is to edit your quote boxes but maybe if that is too much, you can at least state what issue you are addressing in your post before posting a response? Just spit balling here.

Unvote

Right off I disliked the banter between experienced players vs inexperienced players. It seems to me that the SE and IC are doing wonderful at sparking conversation but that conversation has been purely them vs the noobs. This is probably because noobs make "noobtells" as Mogri would call it. I am going to hope that the game doesn't continue like this.

I am probably the most "newbie" out of everyone here and do not understand RVS very well but i think i like it. My biggest issue is that people are seeing things that are not there. It is not scummy to use a random voter, not in a newbie game when there is no way that people are analyzing our phycological process for random voting. With that said, the term scummy is up for debate.

@Matt- Why is it that you are trying to label how scum play? I disagree entirely with that fact because I believe scum can be just as aggressive as town. I find nervous players can play as scum or town. And in case you didn't know, Jason did catch you on a slip. You adamantly stating that scum play cautious means that you are probably scum because your entire game play has been backtracking what you have said for fear of looking scummy.

1. How is the term "up for debate?" I just don't quite understand that statement and I would like you to elaborate more.

2. You are also putting words in my mouth at the moment. I never stated that nervousness makes you "probably scum", but it can certainly be a scum tell, as can aggressiveness. Some people play differently.

People call lurking a scumtell, but there's a difference between just not saying anything at all and attempting to fit in. There are two different kinds of lurking, and to me, one is a scumtell and the other isn't. By saying that nervousness can be a scumtell, I don't mean that any sign of it is.

MOI- ??? Why did you only quote the first sentence in the paragraph as an answer to your question? I said exactly why it is scummy. Now onto the two quotes I posted.

He is lying that he thought the mod was in the game.

1) It is an excuse to why he voted Zach. 2)

He lied. Lynch all liars.

What excuse would he have for lying about that as town? He is scum.

Please note the things in bold. Your pushiness on me is astounding, especially when you can't even give any kind of proof that I would lie. To be honest, scrolling through your posts, it just looks like you're clinging to excuses of voting me.

Tell me, on this other site were the mods players? Didn't that seem to be a bit unbalanced if the mods know all of the roles in the game and who has them?

Ya... lying scum.

Lying. Not indicative of scum. It seems to me that he is just boosting his own ego but there is no reason as scum to lie about how many games he has played.


@MOI- What is your viewpoint on Lynch-all-Liars?

I actually didn't lie about the number of games I've played, and I can present proof for that, also. I'm not attempting to "boost my ego", as you put it by saying so. I was just saying I know the basic game mechanics, and like you have stated before, introductions are important, aren't they?

I have suspicions, but I'm having trouble deciding who to vote right now. I'm going to essentially do something that I've reasoned might help me a little and voice one of my theories and see how other's respond.

fos's:

rockynpoika and jasonT1981

From what I can tell, Jason seems to be attempting to stray as far away from Rocky as possible, but he's desperately clinging to suspect me. A while back he posted that "he doesn't like Rocky's play, but Matt has drastically shot up my scum meter", and that was the end of it.

Saying you suspect somebody and then avoiding them like the plague = a possible light bus.

[projectmatt]

epicmafia.com

Enjoy.

[projectmatt]

I don't believe I've voted yet, Zach. I voted Sisterman\TOGTFO a while ago but then unvoted.

[projectmatt]

Anyway, this is all I have for the moment. I unvote sisterman and withhold future voting until I see more responses and discussions.

I just forgot to put it in bold. My bad.

[projectmatt]

What makes you say this? The mere fact that he's not said anything beyond a suspicion and chased up his other reads instead?

It's in the fact that he very clearly suspects Rocky on the first page and never mentions him again. I do enjoy seeing how players interact with each other, and it just appears odd to me.

What are the two types of lurking then?

Also... Epic mafia is not a forum based mafia game and because of that, you can not play it the same as you would here.

Well, from what I know, there's a kind of lurking where the person just appears to be a bored player who didn't want to join the game in the first place, or the type of lurking where the person is desperately trying to fit in and not be put into the spotlight. (ie: occasionally filling with a post that has no relevance to the discussion at hand, or "active lurking", as in, stating the obvious.)

That's what I'm slowly realizing. Playing styles and scumtells may be different from what I'm used to.

Oh, and Pope, the games differ from what mafiascum is like. The mods do not host games, they simply moderate the community. It's a coded system that does the announcements\gives information.

[projectmatt]

I'm making so many mistakes that I probably deserved to be lynched anyway. I thought that, once again, moderators\IC always started with whatever it was that we were doing, regardless of it was an RVS or asking random questions.

post 52

[projectmatt]

Welcome to the game, Dark. It's odd to see Rocky replaced so quickly though. I wish he could have elaborated more on why he did the things he did. Now it's going to bother me forever.

Not much to respond to at the moment, though I will apologize for the fact that I've been using the typical scumtells that happen on epicmafia on this website. For the moment, I'm spectating and seeing what's happening, but I have a few things to point out. I'll do that tomorrow morning because I'm exhausted right now. Just a reminder that I'm right here.

[projectmatt]

To elaborate one more time, I unvote TOGTFO. I've been paying attention, and for the moment, he's the only one that I believe I can get a direct town read on.

Idle banter: If MoI's town win% is only 37.5 and his scum win% is 83.3, does that mean we're statistically ahead of the game to lynch him?

I'm getting mixed signals from you, actually. For one point, I feel like you've been doing the opposite of merely sheeping and going with the easy choice, but on the other hand, the way that you say things just strike as odd to me. If you don't mind me asking, why exactly were you looking at the win rates of users? Just curious.

We wouldn't be ahead of the game for lynching somebody who is good as mafia.

Something to note about Magma Of Illusion: Just by reading over his posts, he seems rather disconnected from the game and while he talks to a few certain people, it may just be me, but he seems to not be exactly paying much attention. I'm unsure what to make of this yet. (IE: not realizing that I've answered the question he keeps mentioning, not realizing that sisterman had already been prodded, only interacting with two specific people.)

I am going to slightly tone down my fos'ing on Jason as I realize that several of my points were slightly invalid.

I was bipolar with my tells on Space Pope, but it seems he's recently gone very silent. I'm curious to know what he thinks about all of this.

[projectmatt]

This is the entirety of your response to me. Please quote the portion where you directly answer the question of why you didn’t begin your first post with Random Questions.

I thought that, once again, moderators\IC always started with whatever it was that we were doing, regardless of it was an RVS or asking random questions.

^That looks like a pretty clear answer to me, for the record. Sorry if it didn't catch your eye.

Also, you never answered my question about the bolded above - what mistakes did you make that were lynch worthy?

I'm actually not sure if I ever directly answered this, but the mistakes come in with the answer to the previous question. I thought that the mods were in this game and started out the stuff, basically.

3. Interacting with only two people – This is completely incorrect. I’ve addressed every player in the game I believe. That you chose to make this a point of concern when it is clearly incorrect is scummy.

I'll actually slightly disagree with this. You've made slight mention of a majority of the players, but you have for the most part only roughly spoken with two specific people, and briefly mention the others.

There is not animal such as a point being ‘slightly’ invalid. It is either invalid or not. Your attempt to distance yourself from your pressure on Jason now that it seems to be dissipating is suspect. Especially since you feel the need to couch it in modifiers.

I was FOS'ing and putting pressure on him, for a common scumtell that happens in other mafia websites that I'm familar with. I found that they might not apply here.

[projectmatt]

Oh, and I was typing out that post as you had been prodding me. Wonderful timing.

[projectmatt]

I need an emoticon for pulling out your own hair.

My question, once again, had NOTHING to do with the Mods / ICs. You are neither. I’m going to ask you directly one more time.

Why didn’t you personally open your first post with Random Questions?

Perhaps one of us are taking each other out of context. You are, in retrospect, asking me to tell you why I didn't open with random questions, since I believe that they are more useful, is this correct?

The answer has to do with IC's and mods. Read closer. I very clearly had answered the question. If you want me to reshape the answer, it's because I believed that the moderators\IC'S would be the ones to start the game off with random questions

or

RVS'S. I had believed that regardless of what we did, the moderators would open up with it.

I didn't open with questions, because I didn't know I was enabled too.

You believe those mistakes were worthy of you being lynched?

There was some slight sarcasm in my tone, but they were rather silly mistakes.

.Again you are using what I like to call weasel-working … in this case using ‘might’ which leaves all possibilities open. Again either the tells don’t work here (and are invalid) or they still hold up regardless of source (in which case they are valid

But in this situation, I am unsure of which possibility is correct, and to say that I knew would just be ignorant.


Also, Dark, I feel like the obvious mafia is never so very obvious. I think that he's been both towntelling and merely playing oddly. By this time, I'm probably expected to vote somebody or make a concrete FOS, but for now I'm floating and observing reactions and such.

[projectmatt]

Mogri's theory is interesting, to say the least, so I decided to investigate a little further, and look at the relationship between the two, and here is what I found.

Out of the hundreds of posts so far, there is ONE post where MOI and Jason talk with each other. You can find it viewtopic.php?p=2947548#p2947548 right there.

And in post 129, Jason respond to him and, this is my direct quote of his post,

"ok, this caught my eye with a big red scummy as hell flag"

And yet, Jason never elaborates further on

why

the post is scummy and after that, all communication is withdrawn. A little bit after that statement, he decides to vote Mogri, by saying he did something scummy, and yet he completely ignores the "hell of a scummy thing" that MOI apparently did.

I think that we might be on to something, or I'm just looking to deeply into it.

[projectmatt]

Oh, and I'll bold it this time. I

UNVOTE

TOGTFO

[projectmatt]

Oh, since it was said directly after he quoted a MIO post, I thought it was directed at him. My bad~

[projectmatt]

weee bit tiny big bit drunk at the minute, but to whoever it was said I have not been intereacting with MOI I want to direct your attention to this.

Oh, since it was said directly after he quoted a MIO post, I thought it was directed at him. My bad~

You are twisting my words indeed. That post that you see? That was the

one post

in the hundreds where you two have spoken to each other. I was pointing it out, as I felt it had some interesting information.

@MOI: What are your thoughts on Jason?

[projectmatt]

I find it pretty funny how quickly the wagon kind of fell on Mogri. I could be completely wrong at this point, but I'm pretty sure that if somebody hammers at the point, Mogri will flip town.

I'm much more focused on other players right now, and though Mogri's latest post was worded..oddly, he's been one that has been trying hard to find the scum so far today. I would like to see what Jason and Zen's replacement thing.

Also, MOI, you completely ignored my question on the previous page, please answer it.

[projectmatt]

Observations:

Okay, I've tested the water, and now, I'm pretty certain that MOI and Jason are not mafia partners. I wish they could interact more, but MOI's reasoning for not doing so seemed to be very logical and not just an excuse as for the lack of communication between the two.

I also love that MOI was the first to point out my slightly illogical statement. (that the BW went quickly.) I'll still point out things as I see them, but for now my read on him is leaning town. I was searching out for certain reactions, and I got them.

I believed that Mogri was town eariler, and I'm still slightly convinced that he will flip so, but he seems to be...cracking.

Example A:

Like MOI I am not going to repeat my reasoning... I believe I have given my views enough already for you to understand why I am voting you and believe you to be scum.

I also gotta say that parroting MoI isn't helping your case here.

It looked like to me that he was trying to pin the blame on someone else\divert the wagon.

Example B:

Because it's not the only time in this thread I've said "I think player X means Y." If that's the sole basis for your vote, please reconsider.

This post kind of appeared desperate to me. I'm unsure what to make of it.

Jason is still my main FOS, for the record. He's jumping all over whichever BW comes his way and then just gives us THIS cop out.

Like MOI I am not going to repeat my reasoning... I believe I have given my views enough already for you to understand why I am voting you and believe you to be scum.

But I'm pretty sure that at this point, the wagon won't change. It's about time for Mogri to claim. Presuming that he flips town, it's not game over yet, but I wish we had more time to discuss.

[projectmatt]

So, I think that hammering was silly, along with this entire lynch. After Mog's recent posts, I am 100% sure that he's going to flip a vanilla townie.

I honestly am going to be pretty sad if Jason and Mogri both flip town, but I fully intend to lynch Jason tomorrow.

[projectmatt]

I honestly don't believe that Mogri will flip scum, and if he does, I'll be completely damned. I haven't been able to grasp much evidence for him, and while he's been slightly pressured, I feel like he's been one of the most helpful players so far today.

With that in mind, if Mogri does flip scum, I'll apologize and re-think the way I've been playing on this site. Silly was the wrong word, as it was fully expected to happen, but rather, of all the people open for lynches, I don't understand this one.

[projectmatt]

So, I think that hammering was silly, along with this entire lynch. After Mog's recent posts, I am 100% sure that he's going to flip a vanilla townie.

I honestly am going to be pretty sad if Jason and Mogri both flip town, but I fully intend to lynch Jason tomorrow.

Two things both me about this post.

1. The certainty that Project has that Mogri is Town. Given that 5 players thought Mogri was playing in a scummy enough manner to warrant a vote. There is nothing ‘obvious’ about him being Town. If Mogri does flip Town then this reads as a grab for ‘Town cred’ in his reads.
2. Why, if he was so sure that Mogri was Town, wasn’t Project pushing his claimed number 1 suspect Jason? As of the last vote count Project’s vote was idle while Jason had two votes (Jerako and Mogri). Putting a third vote on Jason would have made the alternate wagon possibly viable even with deadline fast approaching. What I’m seeing is words that say “Mogri is a bad lynch, lynch Jason” combined with player which does nothing to factiliate that movement to Jason.

@Project

: putting aside your assuredness about Mogri – why didn’t you actually vote for Jason today

Oh boy, here we go.

As for your first point, I will admit that I

was

fairly certain that Mogri was town. The number of people who thought otherwise is not needed. At that day, he was my strongest town read, but I did show a little bit of doubt. "I honestly am going to be sad if Mogri and Jason both flip town."

As for your second point, yeah, you've got me there. Not putting up a vote on Jason was merely a mistake, and there was no valid reasoning behind it.

I'm going to wait just a little bit longer until I put my vote up for Jason, I need to re-read and find some specific points in order to properly present my case, but one thing I'd like to point out, is that in Jason's "defense", he backs his vote up because of all of the "evidence" that he found for Mogri.

Where is that damn evidence?

The only thing you did yesterday was just go "lol, mogri is scum, what MOI said."

[projectmatt]

look back at me in ISO, you will see all the 'Evedience' you need to show why I suspected him.. but to name a few

1) naming me top suspect but not voting me - seemed very non committal
2) self voting - scum tell to me
3)avoiding questions
4) misrepping by saying I had not answered questions which I had and proved
5) Misrepping me by saying I had no interaction with MOI which i had and proved.
6) his general anti-town play noted by not only me but others.
7) His only scum reads where those who suspected him OMGUS Much?

Matt you had me as your 'FOS' and noted several times you found me scummy, yet no vote.. your vote was on sisterman but no more votes after you unvoted. Forgive me for not buying ' it was mearly a mistake' you did not have a vote on me.

vote: Matt

IF it was such a mistake yesterday, as you say to not have a vote on me...

why is it not on me today yet?

Most of these "scumtells" you have barely pointed out until right now, when they aren't important, or you've lazily just said "lol MOI is right" in order to avoid coming toe to toe with him. The point is that you were so very sure on him yesterday, and you tunneled on him hard, but you could barely even identify what he was doing, you sheeped and you let MOI guide it for you.

After I had been putting pressure on you, I find it funny that you just outright vote me "because you don't buy it" and then ask a question that I had answered the post above you. I was going to make a case on you, as we are in a LYLO situation, and I wanted to be completely sure, but hey, if you wanna play it like that.

VOTE: Jason

[projectmatt]

After I had been putting pressure on you, I find it funny that you just outright vote me "because you don't buy it" and then ask a question that I had answered the post above you. I was going to make a case on you, as we are in a LYLO situation, and I wanted to be completely sure, but hey, if you wanna play it like that.

VOTE: Jason

Complete and utter OMGUS and misrep!

If you read back, there is alot more to me thinking you are scum than 'I didn't buy it' The fact you only voted me, when I voted you today is laughable. You said you made a mistake not voting me D1... still don't put a vote on me.. I vote you, and suddenly you vote me? Misrepping that the only reason I am voting you is 'Because I don't buy it'

Um, that's not an OMGUS at all. I have fos'd you from the very start of this game, and you have fos'd me. Neither of us are OMGUSING, both of us are voting because we FOS each other. My suspicions on you just didn't come out of thin air. Exaggerate more.

You had fos'd me previously because of my apparent contradiction, but I believe you later admitted that it was invalid since I had proven I wasn't intentionally lying or anything. What is the other basis that you have explained?

And I did the math wrong, I thought we didn't have another ML. In this case, I would like to lynch you badly.

[projectmatt]

Oh, and Pope, I normally don't act so certain of myself, but that was one of the rare cases in which I was almost 100 percent sure that Mogri was town. If I was wrong, well then yeah, that would suck, but I felt confident enough in my read that I admittedly was attempting to de-rail it.

Oh, and yeah, I've been reading and I'll gather a few things about Jason briefly.

[projectmatt]

And I did the math wrong, I thought we didn't have another ML. In this case, I would like to lynch you badly.

Scum slip no2 from Matt?

You would like to lynch me badly because we DO Have another Mislynch??????

"scum slip number 2"

First of all, what was the first slip you're talking about? I forget. Is it the "mafia is usually careful, so because Matt is careful, Matt is scum." I'm sorry, that's just silly.

And Jesus Christ, you're just twisting my words so they fit your own merits now. MOI had corrected me on the fact that it was not LYLO. I was wary to lynch so quickly prior because if I was wrong, we would be screwed over, but MOI corrected me, and that's why I'm highly inclined to lynch you now.

I'll find some direct quotes later, but what you've done so far this game is randomly point fingers, exxagrate things, follow along with whatever BW is the easiest to jump on to, and be "sure that somebody is mafia" based off of zero reasoning. If you're not mafia, I don't see you being any help in lylo, especially since you're my top suspicion.

You tried to make a slip out of what I just did now, too. In reality, it barely makes sense in the context of a slip.

My vote is staying.

I’d like you to explain the process by which you did the math. I’m starting to suspect you tripped one of my secret scum-tells.

MOI... I was at Matt from the start of game D1.

Oh I don’t doubt that. Or at least you appeared to be at him. Odd that once you shifted over to Mogri that your Project ‘hate’ suddenly disappeared.

And this doesn’t explain where your Stefunny / Runner suspicion suddenly germinated from.

Complete and utter OMGUS and misrep!

Speaking of misrepresentations – this is a prime example. OMGUS is when someone reply votes you for no other reason than you voted them first. Clearly Project isn’t doing that since he indicated he would be building a case but intended to vote you when he did.

--

1) Whenever someone says xxx is town near the hammer, but do not present an alternative, I find it very scummy.

Agreed.

Mogri- Why are you letting Matt off the hook for 1)? His answer was that it was a mistake. Do you find it more than likely that he forgot? Is sheeping scummier than distancing from a mislynch?

I’m going to make a logical leap and assume this is addressed to me since Mogri is dead. I’m not sure if you are addressing 1) in your own post or my first question directed to Project. In either case the answer is the same – I’m not letting him off the hook. I have strong concerns about Project’s play.

--

And I did the math wrong, I thought we didn't have another ML. In this case, I would like to lynch you badly.

I’d like you to explain the process by which you did the math. I’m starting to suspect you tripped one of my secret scum-tells.

There's not really a certain process of how I did the math, there were just more players and more mafia then I remembered.

Also, care to voice these concerns you have over my playing?

[projectmatt]

This is somewhat of a post by post analysis of Jason, but not really. I'm going to point out specific points and explain in depth why I feel a flip on him is valuable. Here we go.

Post 17:

Jason attacks rocky with decent reasoning and quickly puts a vote up on him. Nothing much to add here, but if Jason flips scum, it's unlikely that Rocky\Rocky's replacement is also scum.

(POST 22) eh? how do you know he used a generator to decide who to vote? I saw nothing suggesting this.....am I missing something at 3am here?

have i missed something or where you just speculating he was?

Nothing incredibly scummy, but this post shows signs of Jason's nervousness\cautiousness, a trait that (as you'll see later) never appears in his other posts. That's not his personality at all, and it's very, very odd.

POST 32 time aside, I actually did not know what had been meant as there was no mention of a random generator that I knew about and was slightly confused as to how he knew one was used... turns out afterwards that Mersenne Twister was a randomizer site. I didn't know that.

Jason attempts to justify his claims, and still acts slightly nervous\shy as I stated before. Let's keep on going.

POST 36 I fail to understand what your asking sorry..or even why.

hope this helps, however I fail to understand your asking.

Again, we find the trait of kindness\being apologetic here again. This is still very important to note. You all with me?

POST 41 note the bold...

he says scum are careful and precise in what they say... then says about how he is cautious..

Yea, scumslip!

Well, one thing to note is that he quickly accuses me of a "scumslip", on a very shaky basis.

47 ummm he did actually give reasoning... are you paying attention?

I see nothing wrong with what he said about getting onto the bandwagon, he has legitiment reasons given in that very post... Now if he just came on and said I can get on this wagon and voted with no interaction or comments then yes, it would be scummy.

Also, why the hell where you still in RVS mode? there is plenty of discussion going.

the fact you ignore a lot of it strikes me as odd and just pick one thing and vote is worrying..

there is so much to talk about yet you seem to ignore it to push weak sauce....

"Are you even paying attention?" "Why the hell are you still in RVS mode?" "there is so much to talk about yet you seem to ignore it to push weak sauce". blatant attacking.

48: but Matt and now Morgi have shot up my scum list dramatically already

I think this quote is pretty important. Jason makes another attempt to jump on the two easy targets. (Yes, at this point, I believe that Mogri and I were.) He also claims that we've shot up his scum list dramatically, implying that something after he had previously accused me (and I had yet to reply) had made him suspicious. His reasoning is bland and confusing.

51: Mogri,, what do you think of the Matt contradiction that looks like a scum slip to me?

Probably the only townie post that Jason has ever made in this thread. He actually tries to get a reaction\explanation instead of mindlessly tunelling, but..

87: Posting will be staggered next few days, started a new job this morning and worked close to 12 hours... exhausted so will be catching up tomorrow.

Two days later..

will catch up later today, been working last 2 days flat out so not had a chance to read.

A couple of hours later

107 h ok, sorry this question seemed to be at Rocky considering it said @Rocky.. so how can you keep your vote on me for asking a question that was not aimed at me? anyway.

I think it the most solid read at the minute and I have already outlined my reasonings behind it a few times which is easy to see why.. Is there another case out there that is stronger? or that you at least feel is stronger?

Jason claims to be "re-reading" and implying that he'll do something informative, but he states the same, exact, pointless thing that I'm a "strong scum read" and doesn't even bother replying to the posts that have addressed him.

I'll give him the benefit of doubt by saying that later he

did

end up responding to those posts, but in a delayed, rushed manner.

Post 116: Morgi - town points for unvoting rocky when he left to give replacement time to catch up..

His next post:

ok, this caught my eye with a big red scummy as hell flag

Statistics mean nothing in the individual game.. lynching someone based on W/L ratio as scum or town is obsurd and very very scummy. I don't like how he disguises it with 'idle banter'

unvote
vote:Morgi

Jason completely ignores the "town points" he gave to Mogri prior and tries to vote him because of an idle banter. Keep in mind, that this was the start of the Mogri wagon, he led it.

POST 130: in fact you will see that I have said I believe his confusion to be genuiene.. the only reason I was questioning him on it was to get an understanding of his thoughts.. I never once made it a part of my case at all against him... my main belief is that he has scum slipped.

The post above is talking about me. He says that he believes my confusion to be genuine, but then proceeds to say I scum-slipped. His reasoning for my "scum slip" was based off of that confusion. Contradiction.

POST 134:
also, Mog... nice ducking here


nice way to answer without actually answering! any reason why you didn't actually answer yet danced around it so merrily

Something that I've been working up is that Jason rapidly changes personality. He goes from a "nice, nervous gentle guy" from an aggresive and rapid finger pointing madman. (that probably came out wrong.) My point is, that he acts as if he's bipolar. I believe that he is scum who can't decide which way to truthfully act, so he mixes up both of those. Forced.

POST 167: Complete and utter lie, we have both addressed each other.

After Jason is accused of not interacting with MOI, he responds with this, but refuses to give any kind of proof, and even after being asked,

never does.

Dodging the questions.

POST 202: im back from a busy weekend, will be posting content later today. Got a few things to do first

His next two posts for the day..

POST 207: No one should hammer, until Jerako has had time to catch up and give his thoughts.

POST 209: Like MOI I am not going to repeat my reasoning... I believe I have given my views enough already for you to understand why I am voting you and believe you to be scum.

Feigning helpfulness after refusing to follow through with what you said is always the best second option, right?

"I'm going to post a ton of content later today. Oh, and I refuse to explain my reasoning ever again."

Bud-dying with MOI and giving us yet ANOTHER COP OUT.

Post 222: Morgi saying people avoid answering things... ironic eh?

Ironic indeed.

POST 243: Morgi, read the game you will see I have had interaction with MOI... I also have answered the question.

Also, L-1 is not premature.

Feigning helpfulness\kindness previously, but now when accused of something (that could allegedly be true), he plugs his ears and just says "NO I DIDN'T. FIND IT YOURSELF."

Post 253: DIE SCUM DIE!!!

I refuse to repeat my reasoning, but I'm so sure you're scum that I'm going to make such a huge statement and tunnel on you.

POST 276: @MOI... as scum, what benefit would I get out of pushing someone (as scum) I knew was town on day 1? surely as scum I would have known I would be drawing heat right off the bat day 2?

This is Jason's first post after Mogri flipped townie. Instead of just going "you know what, sometimes I'm wrong, deal with it.", he makes a pathetic excuse and uses wifom as his argument. Gah.

POST 282: look back at me in ISO, you will see all the 'Evedience' you need to show why I suspected him.. but to name a few

1) naming me top suspect but not voting me - seemed very non committal
2) self voting - scum tell to me
3)avoiding questions
4) misrepping by saying I had not answered questions which I had and proved
5) Misrepping me by saying I had no interaction with MOI which i had and proved.
6) his general anti-town play noted by not only me but others.
7) His only scum reads where those who suspected him OMGUS Much?

Matt you had me as your 'FOS' and noted several times you found me scummy, yet no vote.. your vote was on sisterman but no more votes after you unvoted. Forgive me for not buying ' it was mearly a mistake' you did not have a vote on me.

vote: Matt

Here are his "reasons" for believing that Mogri was scum, but most of these things he doesn't even point out until today, the day where they DON'T MATTER AT ALL.

God, that was a pain to write and I am going to be so mad if it's accidentally erased somehow, but I feel I've made my point.

TO SUMMARIZE:

Jason does these things in these many posts:

A.

Tunnels mindlessly.

B.

Jumps on the easy targets and looks for excuses to do so.

C.

Refuses to back up his reasoning again. (probably because he can't remember what it was that let him get on the BW.)

D.

FREQUENTLY switches personalities.

And given the fact that Jason is about to start his ever-so entertaining tunnel on me, I conclude that he is either a useless townie or a scum. Either way, I believe that Jason had to be rid of today, or I'll probably lose my mind. Yes, I am now pushing, but only because I feel incredibly strongly about this lynch and he is my primary suspect.

Also, this was my first time on forum mafia attempting to go through somebody's posts and find all the little fallacies\contradictions, so I probably had some shaky wording or I messed up a few times. But either way, don't take what I say lightly.

[projectmatt]

In regards to post #167:
Jason actually DOES point out his interactions with MOI. #253 So therefore

After Jason is accused of not interacting with MOI, he responds with this, but refuses to give any kind of proof, and even after being asked, never does. Dodging the questions.

Is untrue.
The only argument you make in that massive post that I agree with is your reference to post# 276. I agree that Jason's argument at that point was completely WIFOM, but I don't see the "pathetic excuse" that you refer to.

If you are going to accuse Jason of blindly tunneling Mogri and then you maybe you should consider that yourself. Even if Jason is scum who do you think is his buddy? Who else would be your scum pick at this point?

Ah, I rest my case then. I must have missed that\forgotten about it. My bad.

But with that being said, I dislike how you mainly every other point because I was mistaken on one or two. Why do you disagree with the rest of my arguments, or rather, how do you disagree with them? Did Jason never change his personality? Does he not jump on the easy targets? Tell me.

I'll actually admit that I'm not too keen on my other reads yet, but the blindest guess I have would be Space Pope\MOI

if

Jason flips scum.. (which is what I desperately need.)

[projectmatt]

First point is that MOI DID state his reasons. You sheeped him, in some way or another. You're contradicting yourself, as you claimed earlier that MOI had given great reasons as to why Mogri is scum, and you weren't repeating it because it's already been said.

Oh, and I did note the second part of your post, but I didn't keep it in, like I didn't quote the full posts for many of my quotes. I didn't want it to be ultra long. You said "I admit I was wrong on Mogri", but not without a "but", and not before saying all of that wifom stuff.


I'm saying that runner, mogri and I are essentially, "the easy targets" at this moment. It's perfectly fine to FOS the apparent most scummy, but the fact that you only push on those and barely even change your focus to the others make me think that you are jumping for the easy bait.

a lot of votes on someone, and the fact that they're generally suspected, DOES MAKE THEM THE EASY TARGET.

I was going through every post of yours, and I missed one that accidentally contradicted my point. I feel secure in this vote, also.

[projectmatt]

This would be a valid point... IF the vote counts do not contridict what you are pushing.

I never claimed that just because somebody doesn't have a lot of votes means they're not the easy target, but rather, I was using Mogri as an example, because he was the easy target with a lot of votes.

This would be a valid point... IF the vote counts do not contridict what you are pushing.

Mogri - 5 (MagnaofIllusion,

JasonT1981,

Darkcoffeejazz, Space Pope, Jerako)

I wasn't only the 2nd person to vote Morgi....

And...lets look at you

projectmatt - 2 (

Jasont1981,

Space Pope)

The

FIRST

one to be voting you early day 1

AND THE ONLY ONE VOTING YOU TODAY

projectmatt - 1 (

JasonT1981)

So... given I was the first one on you both yesterday, and today... and the 2nd one on Morgi.. show me how that makes you both easy targets with, and I quote 'lots of votes on them'

Now, since when does first vote and second vote constitute 'lots of votes' and 'easy target'

The easy target doesn't have to have a gazillion votes on him, but it has to be someone who is generally suspected, or has done something particularly scummy that you can work on.

And I know, I know, you're going to say that if somebody did something scummy, of course you're going to suspect them, right? But the matter of the fact is that you take that easy bait and you never let go. You refuse to focus on anybody else instead, and you just mindlessly tunnel and try to find "scum slips" in those people. They are the easy targets, and I believe that you're trying to sound like you're trying to sound open to other people, since you randomly FOS'D Runner out of the blue. (He's an easy guy to suspect, too. Lurking and all of that stuff.)

1) my interactions with MOI when you said I had none..
2) Your math when you said it would not be mislynch when I showed it would be
3) saying my easy targets had lots of votes when they didn't as I was either 1st or 2nd votes on them you claim runner is one of these easy targets yet I have NEVER had a vote on Runner....

1. No, you had none\close to any. You directly spoke to each other in around one post, but aside from that you either just saw MOI as a null read, or you just seconded what he said. You've made no real attempt to actually go after him at all, which is what I mean. I lied about nothing, as I had previously pointed out the one post (out of the hundreds) where you two have specifically addresed each other.

2. Sure, I was wrong about the math, but what the hell does that signify? I'm unintelligent? It has nothing to do with my suspicions on you.

3. See above. ^^

In the Jason versus Project debate that has been recently dominating the thread I have to say that Jason seems to have the more solid arguments in the exchange.

Question: Does the fact that Jason frequently change personalities seem odd to you?

Why do you desperately need Jason to flip scum?

Also Project you never (that I can see) answered my question about describing your thought process on how this was LYLO. Please do so in your next post.

That was worded awkwardly. I mean that I would love to see what Jason flips, and if he flips scum, it's exactly what I need to help solidify my reads. Also, I don't claim to be amazing at arguing over these things, but the goal was to explain in depth why I was voting for Jason, and why it wasn't mindless\had a good basis.

I actually did answer that question, but you seemed to have missed it. Allow me to quote my response from 295. I'd also appreciate it if you answered my question.

There's not really a certain process of how I did the math, there were just more players and more mafia then I remembered.

Also, care to voice these concerns you have over my playing?

[projectmatt]

or am I reading you wrong on this and you were thinking there was more mafia?

I derped up and thought there were three for a moment, not two, and that took us into a lylo.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Change of personalities?

It was an important issue I brought up on my PBP analysis. Jason is happy, apologetic and sweet for one moment, then basically an aggressive madman for the next. For clarification, see what I had already quoted on the last page.

Your answer doesn’t make sense which is why I wanted further details.

What do you mean by more players and more Mafia than you remembered?

See: My response to Jason up above. I thought there were three, not two.

except I have already shown that he was not an easy target with lots of votes on him at the time of my vote?

You slightly started to lead the BW on Mogri, then you pushed on him harder and harder as the votes started to fall on him. You were.

[projectmatt]

Post #137, #151, #169, #172, this is just an example of posts where MOI has made walls speaking and attempting to understand\interrogate Mogri, but eventually, after the argument was done, he stepped back and focused on other people. The problem is, most of the interactions you did with Mogri were forced and you didn't even try to change your focus until he was lynched. This is, just in case you were going to make me cite the posts where MOI gives reasons for his votes.

Also Jason, I'm sorry, as I jumbled up several posts in my mind. Bu the "great reasons" I mean that you've shown several signs of buddying\agreeing with MOI randomly that I've already brought up.

[projectmatt]

1. No, you had none\close to any. You directly spoke to each other in around one post, but aside from that you either just saw MOI as a null read, or you just seconded what he said. You've made no real attempt to actually go after him at all, which is what I mean. I lied about nothing, as I had previously pointed out the one post (out of the hundreds) where you two have specifically addresed each other.

This is a complete fabrication... there was more than one post that I quoted. I had less interaction with a few others in the game than MOI but nothing was made of that. You say it was one post... no, that one post actually showed quite a few posts in quotes of interaction with MOI.

your logic fails right now

Noo, a few times you've quoted MOI as a "null read" or you've said you've agreed with him, or you've just slightly noticed his existence. There is only one post I can find where you directly answer one of his questions.

[projectmatt]

I don’t see this a valid observation at all. You don’t have to be an insulting jerk to play aggressively in Mafia. Aggressive pursuit of your suspect doesn’t mean you shouldn’t play cordially and apologize if you made a mistake.

Right. It's just the way he makes the changes. They seemed very forced to me, as I outlined prior.

Again you fail to show where I actually said 'MOI has great reasons'

Oh, thats right.... I DIDN'T

Another lie from Matt towards me!

WOW.

You just revealed yourself, Jason. You revealed yourself pretty hard.

Let's outline this post nice and slowly, shall we?

You quoted part of this post. http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2999076

The posts reads as this:

Post #137, #151, #169, #172, this is just an example of posts where MOI has made walls speaking and attempting to understand\interrogate Mogri, but eventually, after the argument was done, he stepped back and focused on other people. The problem is, most of the interactions you did with Mogri were forced and you didn't even try to change your focus until he was lynched. This is, just in case you were going to make me cite the posts where MOI gives reasons for his votes.

Also Jason, I'm sorry, as I jumbled up several posts in my mind. Bu the "great reasons" I mean that you've shown several signs of buddying\agreeing with MOI randomly that I've already brought up.

Now, read Jason's post again. Okay? Okay.

As you can clearly see, he

removed my apology\anything relating to my response

and then claimed that I didn't respond. It was in THE SAME FREAKING RESPONSE. There is no way that he could have missed it. No way. He managed to successfully note every other post that I made in this thread, even the post directly after it. But he just so happened to miss my apology\retraction so it made ME look bad.

He's doing exactly the same thing he has accused me as. I will be blunt. He has very obviously scumslipped, or he's an idiot town who actually believes I'm scum so badly that he decided to misquote my post and take things out.

[projectmatt]

..wow. I just saw Jason's cop claim now. Okay. Here's what we do.

Well, there's a decent chance that we do NOT have a doctor, looking at the possible setups, meaning t hat the mafia could kill immediately. I think over this cop claim and gather my thoughts. I think that if Jason is faking, the real one should claim.

Just a question for Jason right now: You suspected me very hard yesterday, and you barely suspected Jerako at all. Why did you investigate him over me?

[projectmatt]

Did you READ the post? I very clearly retracted that claim and apologized for misunderstanding, but you missed it and yet still quoted the rest of the post and everything directly under it.

Do NOT avoid the subject. Did you miss that? Did you notice my apology at all? What?

[projectmatt]

Because I am sure you are scum, and can provide proof of that. I was from Day 1. Good Cop play is to push for a lynch on scummier players and investigate middle of the road players who you are unsure about.

Fair enough explanation.

OK Fair enough, I see that now. I was working on the assumption that you were saying I had said outright that I said MOI had great reasoning as opposed to the way I was interacting with him.

Doesn't make much sense to me, and I hate how you refused to respond when I pointed it out before.

50/50 chance of their being a doc... nice subtle rolefishing btw.

How the hell is that rolefishing? I'm weighing the consequences of a "real" cop claiming if there's not a doctor.

I'm going to

unvote

for now as I consider what I think about Jason as a cop.

[projectmatt]

I was starting to suspect that.

Vote: Jason

Let's hammer right this time.

[projectmatt]

Well, I had my own personal doubts, but I'm glad that my tunneling managed to be right.

[projectmatt]

Setup confirmed. (Unless mafia was silly enough to NK, there was a doc save, and therefore, it's setup 1.)

Now, here's my theory.

Basically, we have two kind of mafia here. One is the typical mafia (nilla), and the other one is the roleblocker.

I think that in the night meetings they discussed among themselves what their playstyles would be. It's common practice for the nilla mafia to be all loud and obnoxious and bring a ton of attention to themselves while fake claiming a PR. And, like the godfather, who's job it is to blend in with the villagers, I think that the mafia roleblocker was trying to draw as little attention to themselves as possible this game.

With that being said, I don't believe MOI is scum. I believe runner "might be" scum for reasons I'll list later\tonight when I stop being lazy.

[projectmatt]

On second thought, I've hit a rough patch. I have no idea who the second is. I'll need a bit to think this over.

[projectmatt]

Got a guilty result, w00t! It's pretty late for me so we'll lynch them tomorrow.

Oh godammit, are you really going to leave me hanging on a cliff like that?

[projectmatt]

So you are scum then? and not town trying to get out of a lynch?

And yes, twilight talk is allowed.

Well, one thing to note is that Space Pope literally had to directly ask Jason if his counter claim really was scum.

I would say that Space Pope would merely be getting a reaction, but there's the fact that he

hasn't

retracted.

Also, I thought through the fact that Space claimed to have a guilty. If he "was" the real cop, I had believed that the mafia roleblocker might have just failed miserably.

In conclusion, if MOI is the real town detective, Space Pope is likely town. Here's why: yesterday, before the day ended, he had outed himself as the detective, and the next night, no one died. I think it's fair to reason that Space Pope was probably protected.

[projectmatt]

Town:

MOI
Stefunny
Space Pope (Almost 100 percent certain on this read.)

This leaves TOGTFO or Jerako for the remaining scum. Town is going to win this one.

VOTE: Jerako

[projectmatt]

I feel like Jerako's lack of response is slightly holding up the game. He's barely said anything (which makes me suspects he's the roleblocker, btw.) But I'm very curious to see what he does to defend himself and who he truthfully suspects. Apart from that, I have nothing new to contribute.

[projectmatt]

Will be away until Sunday evening. Hopefully by then Jerako will have come back. Sorry!

My vote on Jerako stays, by the way, as he's my strongest suspicion out of the two.

[projectmatt]

I'm back. Waiting to see what my impression on Para will be. Null so far.

[projectmatt]

I actually think that Para has done something interesting, and something pretty townie. Offering himself up to be lynched could possibly be a wifom to persuade us, but his words seemed sincere to me. This makes things very interesting indeed.

Question to TOGTFO: Do you still believe Para is possibly scum, even after all of that?

[projectmatt]

Massclaim + lynch, I believe that's the smart idea.

Here's what I think. If we have a doctor, (which I believe we do, due to the lack of death) then we can successfully conclude that MOI and the proclaimed doctor are two clears.

Two clears to make a choice between two people? I like it. I think it will benefit us nicely.

[projectmatt]

Doctor here.

The reason I've been so odd during the start of this game is because the mafia and the doctor have the same tells. I get jumbled up and don't know how to act.

I knew that the mafia would go fishing for a possible doctor, so instead of trying to stay hidden, I tried to bring as much attention to myself as possible, and I believed that the mafia wouldn't target me. I guess it worked decently enough for now.

I saved Space Pope the night that nobody died, by the way. I think that TOGTFO is the mafiascum.

[projectmatt]

If we believe that Space Pope is scum, we believe that the mafia NK'D the night Jason died. Just pointing that out.

[projectmatt]

Sorry for the sudden drop in activity, there's a huge play coming up and it'll all be over with Sunday evening. Will post in depth thoughts then.

What a very difficult situation.

First question, the mafia would be aware of the setup they are in, yes?

[projectmatt]

More active now. Trying to figure this out. I'll ask the question again: At the start of the game, the mafia is aware of the setup that they are in, is this statement correct?

[projectmatt]

Meaning that, the mafia, at the point of Space Pope claiming, were not aware if there was a doctor in the setup? Meaning that they could have just tried to kill him and tested their luck. If the mafia KNEW for sure, then I would suspect Space Pope had NK'd that night.

[projectmatt]

Ugh..

I have indeed re-read and gathered my thoughts. I think that it may be TOGTFO for the remaining scum.

I'm going to analyze his play, starting with d2, (I admittedly still need to look over d1.)

I am going to get my reads up on everyone soon. For the moment, I am going to agree with MOI and Mogri that Jason is a good start for today. Although I can not fathom scum being so adamant about a lynch when it will draw attention to themselves. Scum may try to lead a lynch but they would not do so at the expense of drawing a lynch to themselves, especially in a smaller scum game as this.

Okay..nothing that bad, but subtly defending Jason.

*Prod dodge*

I am not being very helpful I know. Sorry. I am going to get my reads out I just need time to be able to focus on this.

Brief overview of reads, more townie people are up top. I will explain my reads soon as I can.

Town:
TOGTFO
Jerako
MOI
Stefunny
Jason
ProjectMatt
SpacePope
Scum:

Anyone else who finds it odd that Stefunny died as soon as another kill could be made? This list of "town" reads could have been interesting, but all in all, it's just a list of names without reasoning. He never really does explain why he thinks what he does, either.

(The above is his last post of day 2, by the way.)

Doctor must have saved SpacePope which means that there is a roleblocker.

SpacePope should out all reports.

Matt is not scum with Jason imo. MOI could be.

MOI was second on his town list his last post. Where did that go?

Vote: Jerako

MOI=cop
Stefunny= innocent
SpacePope cced Jason and consequently got him lynched. Not a tactic scum would use.
Matt would be a hard buss but possibly aligned with jason had they planned it that way.
Jerakos vote on jason seemed the most reluctant out of everyone and therefor the most scummy.

If there is a doctor between matt and jerako, then this game is looking to be a town victory.

Quickly jumps on Jerako, which is okay..

I could honestly care less who we lynch today. It seems evident that the best lynch today is between me and Jerako and since we are not in lylo yet, I dont mind being on the chopping block.

I would, however, love to hear from Jerako soon.

"I don't mind being on the chopping block", and then proceeds to pressure Jerako into posting, as SpacePope has already pointed out.

Not.... really the answer I was expecting.

This is after Jerako's replacement offers himself up for a lynch. TOGTFO had previously outlined everyone as "town", so if Jerako had been lynched he would be put in a sticky situation. This post honestly just felt like he was trying to distance himself away from his scum read and note that:

I feel like anything is possible.

.

Now, d4.

I would rather nl today and bring it to a three way lylo. Either way, there will be two unclears but at least this way town has a chance for mafia to miss and hit another townie as opposed to the doctor which would mean a win for town.

Nevermind. I just wanted you to see my thought process but now I realize that wouldn't work because mafia can claim doctor. In that case, lets mass claim today.

I have no idea what this post was about. There is no "edit" function so clearly TOGTFO was just outing his thoughts as they came. But, what was the point? He made a giant wall then he just said "I retract".

Claim VT

Vote: SpacePope

What this means, is that mafia took a gambit and hoped there was not a cop. If there wasn't, then SpacePope could have been cleared as cop for an easy win.

Ugh..

Let's look back at his post from d3, okay?

SpacePope cced Jason and consequently got him lynched. Not a tactic scum would use.

And yet, before the massclaim had even ended, he was quick to jump on Space Pope.

Think of it from SpacePopes perspective. You had claimed cop as last scum. Your partner just got lynched which essentially means that you know doc will be on you if there is one. What is the best course of action? You no-kill. There is no risk because doctor will be on you and if there isn't a doctor, then you go into a 4 way lylo which isn't so bad either.

I can't understand why mafia would risk killing spacepope when they would know that a doctor is in play unless they thought they could get lucky with a wifom from doctor.

@SpacePope- One scum left. Please re-read cause I am the only other person you can possibly lynch.

Again, he's SO SURE that SpacePope is scum, but in the post directly after he still decides to question other players and add a giant dose of cynicism..

This would have been so much easier if MOI had just investigated the person who claimed cop. Obviously you had doubts of him being scum, why not make sure?

Likewise for me, I have to assume you are scum because MOI is cleared cop.

And for the record it was a bad scum tactic for you to play against your buddy.

Dear lord I hate this post. This is the most common thing for scum to say when they are up for a lynch. It only makes TOGTFO scummier, pushes like these have always been very bothersome to me.

Set up 1- SpacePope is scum because both PRs are clear.
Set up 3- Matt is scum cause there is no doctor
Set up 4- MOI is scum cause there is no cop.

Matt can not be scum because MOI claimed to have been roleblocked which means that if he is legit town then it is set up 1. If he is not town then it is set up 4. Thus Matt is clear.

I realized, however, that MOI could have known there wasn't a cop since there was a doc save on spacepope. unvote

I was wrong and in that aspect and I am sorry. MOI has played smart and scum-MOI would know that there is not a cop after doc saving SpacePope. This means that he would claim cop cause town wouldn't know the difference. This makes it a difficult choice for me and seeing as I still agree with my original theory of scum not counter claim bussing their parter, I am leaning more towards MOI being mafia.

Jesus...this is odd scum play for TOGTFO, I must admit. He randomly decides to change his FOS even after being so bent on it being Spacepope.

But to play devil's advocate, me being scum would mean that I too have to be a roleblocker. Does it not strike anyone as odd that I would try to kill SpacePope when I know full well that there is a doctor among us? Instead, I would block him and try to shoot for the doctor. Just getting that out there...

Trying to defend himself in terrible ways.

But, with that being said, he has made some town posts and notions, and I am not completely bent on him being scum yet.

Also, I am now 100 percent sure that the scum is between MOI and TOGTFO. I am pretty much convinced that Spacepope is town. I need to do a re-read on MOI later. Sorry for the wall.

[projectmatt]

..Dammit.

I could end this right now, but I'm going to go for one last read on MOI in case I missed something vital. Forgive me. I just like to make sure that I don't miss something big. TOGTFO, I'm giving you more time to plead why I shouldn't hammer on you right now. Speak up.

[projectmatt]

Well, if you are town, that is quite the cop out.

Here's what I think. I think that Space Pope's mind is already changed and that my choice won't be swayed. I think that hammering is the only option right now. Sorry if I'm wrong, and if MOI\Space Pope is scum, very well played.

VOTE: TOGTFO

[projectmatt]

Ugh.

What a shocking ending. I'm pretty frustrated that TOGTFO ended up being town and even more annoyed that I wasn't able to catch MOI, but I must congratulate him for that awesome scum play. Wonderfully done.

I'm happy I was able to catch Jason in his tracks (though my reasoning was pretty weak, he just kind of stuck out to me), I obviously screwed up today. This is my first game here, and I'm still trying to figure out how the site meta differs from any other mafia site. Are there any suggested improvements you guys have for me? I'll be joining another game after this and I'm hoping there's some tips you have so I can do better.

[projectmatt]

And yes, thanks for the quick modding, Zach. It helped the game a lot.