Newbie 1089: GAME OVER

[Trumpet of Doom]

Hi, I'm one of the multitude of SEs for this game. This is my first game here since June of last year, so I thought I'd ease back into playing.

There are a few points I'd like to get out of the way now, as things to not do: (Note: Some of these are not going to hold true in every situation. For those points, I've made an effort to point out that there are times when it's good to disobey this advice; however, I feel that either those are not going to pop up in this game or that if they do, I or one of the SEs will be on hand to tell you more. I'm trying to teach you the rules before teaching the exceptions.)
*Don't self-vote. Ever. If there is a scenario in which self-voting is a good idea, it is not going to come up here. Many, many players will insta-lynch self-voters, because self-voting tends to imply a desire to be lynched, which is virtually never beneficial to your faction.
*Don't vote No Lynch. There are times when it's a good idea, but those tend to happen towards the end of the game. If we're still alive by that point, I or one of the SEs will tell you when it’s a good idea.
*Don't lurk. Lurking deprives the town of insights into what you're thinking, and town needs all the information it can get (except who the powerroles are, if we have any. We need to keep those for the later part of the game). Posting is good.
*Don't claim your role unless: (a) you’re at one vote away from lynch (commonly abbreviated L-1) and someone has declared intent to cast the lynching vote (the "hammer"), (b) all players are claiming ("massclaim") – typically if this happens, it will be at LyLo - or (c) someone else has just claimed your powerrole. There are a few other situations when it's a good idea to claim, but the only one I can think of that might be applicable to this game has to do with how to time a cop claim, and I might get into that more if I'm still alive on D2.
*Don't lie as town. Again, town needs all the information it can get – spreading false information is actively detrimental to town's chances of winning. Sub-rules include:
**Never claim to be scum. And if for some reason you do, never,

ever,

ever

name your scumpartner(s). I cannot stress this enough. If you're scum and claim scum, you will be blacklisted from the Newbie Queue. If you're town and claim scum, you're just stupid.
**Never fakeclaim as town. Especially not in an Open or Semi-Open setup, like this one, where the possible roles are laid out in advance and there's a chance you'll be caught in a lie.
*Correct spelling, grammar, capitalization and punctuation will make it more likely that you'll be listened to, as a general rule. They by no means guarantee it, but they do improve your chances.

Now, to answer some questions:

1. Tell me about yourself, do you have any hobbies or interests?

I'm a musician, occasional actor, and compsci student.

2. What is your mafia experience on Mafiascum?

More than yours. See my wiki. I'm moderately amused by the fact that the last time I played a game was almost longer ago than you joined, and that hiatus is why I chose to SE this game instead of IC'ing, which I've done in the past.

3. Why are you not mafia?

Because I've never been mafia in a game in which I've been an original player. Also because the mod didn't send me a mafia role PM.

4. Are you lying about your previous answer?

No, and if I was, would I admit it?

5. Pick a Number please? One, Two or Three

Three.

6. Are you nervous about question 5? why or why not?

I'm trying to figure out how it's relevant to getting a handle on any of us or to scumhunting, but I wouldn't say I'm

nervous

- just a little confused, perhaps.

Lastly:

Vote: I Am Innocent.

Trying to make us believe you're town before the game has even started?

Clearly

scum.

[Trumpet of Doom]

@ Trumpet of Doom. I disagree with most of your tesises. "If you're town and claim scum, you're just stupid." Isn't it just boring to claim all-the-way town, or why it isn't equally stupid to beat yourself in chest and yell "Imma town!"?

A) As far as I can tell, this is not an objection to the claim I made. (Actually, I'm not sure I can tell

what

it is.)
B) You want everyone else to think you're town so that they don't lynch you. Granted, making a concerted effort to Look Town isn't the most effective way to go about making that happen - what you should be doing is Finding Scum - but it's a less obviously bad idea than claiming scum.

Let me see if I can organize why it is a Really Bad Idea to claim scum:

If you claim scum and are...	you are...
...lying	...lying, and town should therefore lynch you
...telling the truth	...scum, and town should therefore lynch you

And unless you're playing a game where you have a role that does something when it gets lynched (or otherwise killed) - sometimes even then - playing to get lynched is against your win condition.

"Don't lie as town." & "Never fakeclaim as town." In general - yes, but sometimes it do good.

I'm not arguing that they

can't

help town, only that they very rarely do. Until and unless you completely understand all the reasons you shouldn't and can explain how what you're planning to do balances out those disadvantages, it's not a good idea to lie/fakeclaim as town.

All about your points in "Don't self-vote" simply are not true.

Please elaborate.

All my objections are based on real game expirience, so don't bother to correct me.

Links or it didn't happen.

First of all, what does randomly voting based off of people's usernames accomplish?

As I understand it, the idea is that it's supposed to get players interacting with each other quickly so that the game can move to more content-rich posts more quickly. (There are things you can get out of players' RVS posts, but there's not as much.)

Second, what does random questioning accomplish?

Hell if I know - that's one reason I don't do it.

Only question 2 seems relevant, and questions 3 and 4 seem like an attempt to get people to act scummy. As an IC, aren't you supposed to help us rather than trick us?

Getting people to say things that reveal that they're scum is a perfectly legitimate way to scumhunt. It may not always give you anything useful, but aside from that, there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

Trumpet of Doom: ((just observation, not game oriented))
You do have experience, quite a lot of knowlege, you seem versed enough to IC and are confident, I don't see why you didn't trust in your abilities to IC a game. Glad to have you around.

I figured things like accepted practices can change in ten months, and although I try to follow MD when I can, it's no substitute for in-game experience. So I decided that the IC for my first game back should be someone with more recent experience than me.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Vote: Trumpet of Doom

for impying an inanimate object could cause doom.

You know, I saw a sign in a bandhall once that read:

DUE TO THE LACK OF TRUMPET PLAYERS
THE END OF THE WORLD HAS BEEN POSTPONED FORTY DAYS

...well,

I

think it's funny. (Completely off topic, but funny.)

Would you rather be scum or town? Why or why not?

I'm going to say scum, because I've only been scum once in the last two years and that game demonstrated to me that I need to do a lot of work on my scum play.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Well, of course everything is context-dependent to a certain extent. However, when in doubt, both of those are bad ideas. Even if you think they're good, they're still probably bad ideas, largely because most of us are neither clairvoyant nor telepathic and whatever you're trying to accomplish can go wrong very easily. There are players here who have played for several years and

still

get hosed when they try to fakeclaim as town. As for self-voting, I don't think I've ever seen a good player intentionally self-vote without a damn good reason, and I think the only time I saw that was in a game with weird mechanics that I wasn't even in.
(Side note: If, when scumhunting, you're having trouble finding someone you think is being scummy, go for the players you think are being anti-town. There's a fair amount of overlap between the two types of action, but there's also a subtle distinction - scummy things are like scumtells, anti-town things make it harder for town to find scum. You can argue about how scummy self-voting is, but virtually no one will argue it's not anti-town.)

Self vote makes a profit: Newbie 1068 , my last game.

Having taken a look at the appropriate part of the game, I fail to see how my original position does not accurately assess the situation.

Actually the trick is that no one pro-town is interested in quick lynch, therefore they likely remove their votes and rethink thinghs.

Had he been lynched right then, I would not have called it a quicklynch. There's been a correlation noticed between D1 length and town win rates, and I would have liked D1 to be a little longer, but I wouldn't have called it a quicklynch. AFAICT, the real reason he wasn't lynched was because newbies thinking this are known to occur, and the IC and SEs wanted to see if that was what was happening.

Also:

All about your points in "Don't self-vote" simply are not true.

Please elaborate.

I'd still like an answer to this.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Trumpet of Doom:
You've stated you have played a lot of games as town, yet only have been scum once or two times prior and that your scum play is horrible. Do you not think by playing town so much, it would be a lot easier to play scum because you know what town are looking for?

Not in my experience, such as it is; maybe it would work like that for some players, but it hasn't for me. Feel free to compare my play in this game in which I was scum to these two games in which I was town. Difference in overall experience can't possibly be a factor in the difference in my quality of play, because I was in the town games at the same time as the scum game.

In other news:

Vote: I am Innocent

I have a feeling he doesn't live up to his name this game, heh.

This does not feel like it comes from town. This feels like Rico is trying to phrase his justification for his random vote in such a way that if IAI is lynched/killed and flips town he can say it wasn't a serious vote, but if IAI is lynched and flips scum, he can say it was and try to invent some reason that he could have thought IAI was scum. I don't like it.

In fact:

Unvote: I Am Innocent
Vote: RICO ACT

[Trumpet of Doom]

As for ToD's accusation of RICO ACT, it's a fairly good point, but I wouldn't say one sentence is something to vote for someone over. It warrants suspicion, but not a vote, especially not at this early stage. I mean, you're more experienced than I am, so you may have your reasons, but it just seems a bit... How should I phrase this... rash.

It's early in the game, so there's not a whole lot to work with. It's something specific I can point to and say, "This is why I think he's scummy," which I like because I'm not especially good at picking up on tells that occur over a period of time - things like active lurking, which is where you're posting but not really providing content. Plus, I'd argue it actually takes less to earn an early-game vote than a late-game one, just because there's less that's happened. (The amount of scumminess it should take to get you

lynched

, on the other hand, I'd guess stays about the same throughout the game, it just usually takes a while for any one playerslot to get up there.) If you have better reasoning for a vote right now, I'd love to see it.

If you put him at L-1 you'd better have a damn good reason.

Kiari seducing me to vote...

VOTE: RICO ACT

Let him be with his family! Hamma, please.

...This is not a "damn good reason." This looks to me like an RVS reason and trying to pass off responsibility for what I can only assume was intended as a serious vote. If you have a more serious reason (like one based on something he did) for why you put Rico at L-1, I request that you give it; until then,

FOS: }|{opa.

@Vino: At L-2, there still has to be some cooperation to get a quickhammer. At L-1, it's easy for someone to post "vote: XYZ" (20 seconds later:) "...oh shit, that was the hammer? My bad guys." and you can't tell if it was deliberate or accidental. So anyone who hammers without asking for a claim or having a good reason not to wait is first on the next Day's suspect list.
(Also, notational nitpick: The reason it's written L-1 is because it's short for "lynch minus one.")

@IAI, post 71: I like the way you think.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Did I said that it was a good reason? No. So, your assumption is wrong. Like I said I don't have any strong opinions yet. Since I see no difference whom to RV, why not to help a guy whose family needs him more than we need him here. Besides, I really dislike such kind of an excuses like he did. Usually it's a bad sign.

P.S.

Also, putting someone to L-1 with RVS is funny.

@bolded: *facepalm*

@entire post: I assumed it was a serious vote

because you put him at L-1.

(PPE: McGriddle gets it.) Besides, excuses like his can be perfectly legitimate (though see my own take on the situation below, at the end of this post).

[Y]ou don't have to have a vote on someone constantly, do you?

No.

I would prefer to not have any votes at all on anyone until you're sure you want to lynch them out of all the people playing. One sentence is not worth it.

I disagree. I think it's perfectly acceptable to vote someone you're not

sure

you want to see lynched more than any other player, as long as:
(a) they're still your top suspect, or
(b) you've got a good reason for doing it, e.g., "You're not answering my question XYZ that I've mentioned multiple times.

Vote: you

until you answer, at which point I will evaluate the answer and see if I should still be voting you." or "There's no way in hell I'm getting my top suspect lynched today.

Vote: Suspect #2

."

And to "One sentence is not worth it"... that depends on the sentence, doesn't it? I mean, to take an extreme example, wouldn't you without a second thought lynch someone who posted, "Hey guys, I'm scum and should be lynched"?

I don't like voting at all right now, since it could easily lead to an accidental lynch because someone didn't know the person was at L-1

Mmmmm... no, not really. As of right now, if you vote

anyone

besides Rico, they'll be at L-2 at most. Even if you vote Rico and put him at L-1, I or one of the other non-newbies can step in and say, "this is what you do with a wagon that's made it to L-1, this is what you do if you're the subject of a wagon that's made it to L-1, etc." I've already stated that anyone who hammers without a claim will be first on the shortlist of potential D2 lynch targets, which ought to dissuade anyone who might think it's a good idea.

Speaking of Rico, why hasn't he posted here since Thursday? He's actually participating in another game elsewhere on site (which I'm not going to link because most mods have rules against discussing ongoing games and against discussing their games elsewhere until they're done; if you want to find it, you can look yourself). As far as I can tell, either he's intentionally lurking here (which is scummy) or he's forgotten about this game (which is not). Either way,

Mod, I do believe another prod on Rico is in order.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Trumpet of Doom: when Rico had posted his family was in the hospital, I had a hard time deciding if that was for slight sympathy card to not vote for him, or not. I would assume though that his family is in the hospital, but had taken note of it as it could be true but it could be used as an excuse not to post much.

Yeah, I'm not accusing him of lying about having family in the hospital. I was willing to cut him a bit of slack for that, even if I didn't say so. But he's posting in another game, so clearly he has time to contribute to the site, he just isn't putting any towards this game. Which does not reflect well on his alignment here.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Hm... I guess you're right, I guess I'm just being too cautious. I don't want to accidentally lynch a townie.

Eh. Mislynches happen. It's not great, but it's almost inevitable that there'll be at least one in any given game. Still, you shouldn't* try to lynch someone you think is town.

* - barring exceptional circumstances like weird theme game mechanics or "oh shit, deadline's in two hours" - it's been empirically shown that towns that lynch D1, even towns that lynch town, have a better win rate than towns who don't.

And to "One sentence is not worth it"... that depends on the sentence, doesn't it? I mean, to take an extreme example, wouldn't you without a second thought lynch someone who posted, "Hey guys, I'm scum and should be lynched"?

Well, yes, it depends on the sentence, and

in this particular case, I don't think the sentence was enough to definitely call him scum.

As for if someone said they were scum, I actually would still give it thought because

no mafia player in their right mind would ever declare they're scum. Ever.

Underlined: Call it gut, if you like. I'm no Glork or Xylthixlm (two semi-legendarily good players), but I'm confident enough in it to vote him.

Bolded: Take a look at Mini 751. On D4, Panzerjager was the last living member of his scumteam and knew that barring some crazy effect, if town wanted to win, they needed to let him live. (As it happened, he got lynched anyway, but multiple crazy effects activated that town should have had no way of predicting, which allowed us to win.)

Well, alright. Again, I guess I'm just being too cautious. Which isn't always a bad thing.

What's the old saying about "good judgment comes from experience, and experience tends to come from bad judgment"? More than half the playerlist, myself included, are here to teach you. I'm not saying you should blindly follow us (unless we're right ), but we are an invaluable resource.

So ToD, since I'm already in a conversation with you, I'll ask you. Who do you think has been the least helpful to town up to this point, besides of course RICO?

Probably Jora, or maybe McGriddle. Actually, about that:

@Jora, McGriddle, and anybody else who wants to answer: I'd like to hear each of your top three scumreads. Who are they, and why?

Got prodded. Family member died. Won't be at the hospital anymore.

Well, that sucks.

Good to see I'm in the hotseat for being inactive. Flawless scummy logic.

Nope, or at least not primarily. Try again once you've actually caught up and read my vote post.

[Trumpet of Doom]

If you want to talk about easy lynches so far. Mcgriddle, Rico Act and opa are prime easy target lynches for scum to be going after. So you may want to start looking at those people who are lingering their votes there.

Interesting that you name McGriddle, considering we're the only two players who have even cast aspersions on him...

@IAI, Jora: In my experience, 3 is generally the standard number of suspects asked for, more or less regardless of game size.

Why

it's standard, I'm not sure, but I could hazard a guess if you want me to.

Eh. Mislynches happen. It's not great, but it's almost inevitable that there'll be at least one in any given game. Still, you shouldn't* try to lynch someone you think is town.

I get that, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to avoid them.

Even mislynches can yield useful information if you know how to read them.

in this game ANYONE can be scum.

...well, unless they've been confirmed town. But that hasn't happened yet, and even if it had, that still wouldn't make them necessarily right in their suspicions.

I've also started seeing a trend on what helps town a lot in these games, is if you can think about the potential of an end game. Who you do want or would want with you in an end game situation where it is possibly Lynch or Lose. The more inactives you bring along to the end game, it hurts your chances, the people who are not assisting town as well can ultimately lead to a demise, active lurking, or distracting town. It isn't a sure fire way to get scum, but it does improve your chances if you can objectively look at peoples posts and ask yourself, does this help, or hurt town, and if you feel it does hurt town, then you might as well question it and get clarity of where someone was going on with their train of thought.

is wrong. Why you bring this Nazi Pro-Policy Lynch Agitation?

Wait wait wait.

What?

I'm not sure I see what this "Pro-Policy Lynch Agitation" is - IME, "policy lynch" usually refers to something like "let's lynch Player X, because he's useless even when he's town," which I definitely don't see here - and the Nazi comparison is not helping you either. Furthermore, I don't even see anything in Thian's quote that looks off: activity really is good for town, so if you're town, you should be trying to keep activity up in the game - the people who believe in Lynch All Lurkers do have their reasons for doing so - and of course you should be harassing anti-town players (including lurkers) to contribute more pro-town content.

Lastly,

V/LA through Saturday.

I have a bunch of stuff to do IRL over the next few days; I'll try to post, but I make no guarantees that I'll be able to.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Okay, I'll admit, I do have another reason to ask specifically for 3 scumreads. No, I won't tell you what it is yet, that would kill its usefulness.

Trumpet of doom:
I have played in 2 games with him, this is my third game ((mcgriddle)). His day one play is very very difficult to read. He has confessed before he hates day 1, so right now, I am not seeing anything out of the ordinary of how he has played in the past with me.

Now at this point, he did follow my RVS vote and then made mention that I had already voted for him. As a person in general Mcgriddle is a cool guy, but he may have found safety in jumping onto my RVS vote on you in attempts to buddy up. That to me is suspicious. His contribution factors are not helping, so it is why I am putting him up there on my list.

I also asked him to pose at least one question to everyone, yet he hasn't done so.

I can see why that would make you think he might be scum, but that wasn't what I asked. I asked what made you think he was an easy target - people in this game don't seem to think he's obviously anti-town or has an anti-town playstyle, so I don't quite see that there's anything making him an easy lynch choice. Do people normally get on him for his D1 play?

About Kiari's 134: Scum more often than not want to

avoid

confrontation and drawing attention to themselves, so I think 134 makes it slightly more likely that Kiari's town; however, it in no way guarantees it, and I can certainly see how one might go about building a Kiari-scum case.

Trumpet of doom has fallen into the background. You guys may want to start questioning him.

Something interesting at this point. I am innocent, and Trumpet of Doom. They do both give off vibes of townie, but you would think they would try to fuel the fire a bit more with coming around and posting. They may infact be allowing townies to rip each other apart.

Okay, these feel like you're accusing my V/LA of being scummy while trying to avoid directly saying it. Not cool. It'd be one thing if I hadn't declared that I was going to be gone, but as it is, you're accusing me of being scum for a reason that has no bearing on my alignment. Surely you know that that's a scummy thing to do.

also the interaction between Kiari and Opa is minimal.
Same with the interaction between
Trumpet of doom and I am innocent.

both avoiding conversation between each other.

Define "minimal" and "avoiding conversation." I'm not particularly asking him anything because I think I have a decent enough read on him without doing so.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Okay, I'll admit, I do have another reason to ask specifically for 3 scumreads. No, I won't tell you what it is yet, that would kill its usefulness.

Why didn't you just say this before, instead of saying:

@IAI, Jora: In my experience,

3 is generally the standard number of suspects asked for, more or less regardless of game size

.

Why

it's standard, I'm not sure, but I could hazard a guess if you want me to.

Because the less reason they have to think something's up, the more likely it is they'll give me information that I can use without worrying about "did they know what I was trying to do?"

I'll say this here and now: If you're town, you should have no reason to be worried about giving three scumreads instead of only two.

I find this backpedaling suspicious, as do I find the request for Top 3 suspects suspicious in a game with only 2 scum. I have only ever seen requests for Top Suspect or Top 2 suspects personally, hence why my initial question.

...Have you played non-newbie games? That's about the only way I can see this statement making sense.

The more scum suspects asked for, the more scum can back into our town reads and pick better NK targets IMO.

That's true to an extent, but even if you're naming three, you're still not naming half the game until we get down to five players, at which point either we've lynched scum once or we're in LyLo. It's not going to help scum that much. Not to mention, players will occasionally declare each other town.

On a completely unrelated topic:

I will explain a bit more about my line of questioning after, Rico, I am innocent and Mcgriddle answer.
I promise I won't leave you out in the dark.

I don't think I ever saw you follow up on this, Thian. Would you, please?

[Trumpet of Doom]

I'll say this here and now:

If you're town

, you should have no reason to be worried about giving three scumreads instead of only two.

Not sure what the point of the underline is. Is it suppose to be some intimation technique, or a subtle way of saying you think I am scum?

Neither. Right now, I just think you're being dense. But since you're going to make me spell it out for you ( ):

There is an associative scumtell that, in the form I know it (I don't think there are others, but I'm not 100% sure), requires a player who has flipped scum to have given a list of their top three scumreads. I like that tell, but I can only use it if both of those conditions are met (i.e., that they've flipped scum and that they've given such a list). Since town players have no buddies they can implicate, they have nothing to worry about.

If we all put forward Top 2 suspects, that = 18 players listed total. 4 of those are bogus as the scum are just listing 2 players each. So they are working off of 14 names, some of which may include the suspects name.

There could be 3, 4, or 5 town that do not come up at all, or maybe once in those 14 votes. Makes the NK a bit harder choice as they obv want to rid the group of the unlynchable townies.

...or power roles, or people they think are going to push their lynch the next Day...

You go 3 deep on suspects, well now the scum have 21 names to use to help make a NK choice. And my guess is that some of the experienced players will start popping up on some of the lists, while maybe 1 or 2 do not. Whammo, guess who got their N1 target now.***

Counterexample: Say those one or two players rank about #4 or #5 on just about everyone's lists and so are not named once, but most other people score really high on some lists and really low on others. By your logic, those players would be the ones who get killed, even though nobody really reads them as terribly town. I don't think you're proving as much as you think you are.

***This also ignores the whole issue of scum choosing what lynch they want to push D1. Remember, they want to blend in, so why not have 21 names that they can use to keep their choices in line with the mass population.

Because then we catch them on sheeping. And it's not like the D1 lynch doesn't usually hit town anyway. Furthermore, what you're suggesting only works if the names they themselves give line up well with what everyone else says, which is why you have the scummier players go first (similarly to why you have them claim first in massclaim).

I would like to hear Trumpet's Top 2 Scum Suspects as of Post 171.

Rico and Jora (probably), in that order.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Let me go through why you think I'm scum bit by bit:

In his post #0 he maked emphasis only for one point:"never,

ever

,

ever

name your scumpartner".

There are two ways I can read this:
1) You don't think it's important enough to emphasize. If this is what you think, you are dead wrong - I've seen games be called off because scum claimed scum and outed their partners, and I know I'm not the only mod whose ruleset has a line saying that a scumbuddy claim will result in a modkill.
2) You think it's something I'd be more likely to say as scum. Take a look at my wiki page and find the games I've IC'd. I made almost the exact same post in both of those games that I did at the start of this one, and I was town in both of those games, so me emphasizing that is a nulltell at the absolute worst.

Later when he was asked he tells about his scum experience. Then he makes a comparison of his scum play to "these two games in which he was town".

And these things are scummy... why, exactly? (Hint: They're not.)

He voted for RICO ACT, and he was the first one who found him guilty. Now, my dear reader, think of ToD & RICO scumteam. Everything falls into place. Imo RiCO did not confirmed at time, and this means he did not met his partner in a pre-game quick topic. ToD saw RICO being a burden to him, and he decided that he will eventually fall. So he maked a fake scum read on him as soon as he placed a post.

...Would you like another bottle so that you can continue pouring wine in front of me?

Seriously, that entire quote block starts from the assumption that I'm scum and tries to prove I'm scum based on that. That's not how proofs work. What you'd have to do is show that town-ToD wouldn't have done what I've done this game, or show how what I've done that you've mentioned is objectively scummy. You're going to be able to do neither of those.

(Also: If I'm scum with Rico, how would my saying I think he's scum be a "fake" scum read? If anything, I'd

know

he was scum. Besides, I'd be bussing him pretty damn early - I'm not sure anyone else would have noticed what I pointed out if I hadn't brought it up. Hey, if you're going to attack me with WIFOM, I'm going to defend with WIFOM.)

Also, I don't like ToD's "3-suspects thing", in my last game one of mafias (RayFrost) has been useing very similar strange shit on D1 (he called it reaction-hunting, but that's was a crap).

The difference here is that I'm being clear in what I'm asking for, and interpreting the results once I get them is not some arcane art. "Whom does Player X say he suspects" is basic reading comprehension, and the associations I'd be getting if one of the players who gave me a list flipped scum aren't too hard to understand either.

What makes you more suspicious of me than of McGriddle?

You've been posting more non-game-related content than game-related content, and the non-game-related content distracts from scumhunting and is therefore scummy. McGriddle just hasn't been posting, the stuff he has posted has been game-related, and his activity level is similar in his other ongoing game, which is also on D1, so I'm not terribly inclined to count that as a scumtell for him. For most players, it would be, but if I can metagame him and see that he's not terribly useful on D1 regardless of alignment, it isn't. (This next part doesn't factor into why I felt you were scummier as of 173, but beyond that, your case in 175 is full of reasons to vote me that are, if not scummy, at least bad. I don't see a single good reason to vote me in that post.)

[Trumpet of Doom]

And these things are scummy... why, exactly? (Hint: They're not.)

You associating your current play with your previous fails at being scum. Looks pretty scummy to me.

No, I was simply providing an example of what my scum play looks like. If you'll notice, my play this game is vastly different from the scum game and is much closer to the town games (exhibit A: I'm actively participating in this game).

Yet another thing that I'm terrible hate in your play is using the WIFOM word in defence.

And yet you're not arguing it's wrong to call it that. (Okay, maybe it is the wrong term, but it's still speculation.) That entire block of text I was talking about can be summed up as "It's possible that ToD could have done this as scum, therefore he must be scum to have done it."

I'm not sure anyone else would have noticed what I pointed out if I hadn't brought it up.

It is the objective reason of your scummness. Those thing about RICO wasn't so scummy to be noticed by townie, and you admit it.

No, I never said that. What I pointed out is

subtle

, which is why I'm not sure anyone else would have noticed, but it's a strong contender for the scummiest RVS "reason" I've ever seen, certainly the worst I can think of off the top of my head.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Hi SO. Please tell us what your read is on everyone in the game, who you think is scum, and why you think they're scum.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Trumpt of Doom: Farily townish. He seems to be actively engaging with a few players and calling people out. I gather you still think that RICO (me) is scummy? I'll address that below. Could you also provide a scumlist of sorts?

At this point you're still #1, though you're at least contributing, which is good. Beyond that:
Jora for all of his distracting, non-game-related posts and for the craptastic case he tried to give on me. All of his posts on page 8 feel like thinly-disguised OMGUS, except for the bits about McG.
There are a couple of Thian's recent posts that have thrown up warning flags, but that's still only a weak scumread at worst. Same with Kiari.
McGriddle's fairly null, and will be at least until (a) he starts posting content or (b) I get a chance to sink my teeth into meta'ing him and see how much he's actually playing to his meta, which might not happen until next weekend - the last week of classes here starts today.

Side note: Are you particularly proud of Haruhi mafia? It's just that I've read another game where you described it as a 'shining example from me-town'.

The second half of the game, yes, although if you're talking about when I brought it up in Mini 912, I'd point out that I was using it there as an example of how I can be dangerous when I have role-related info to play with.

On RICO:

Vote: I am Innocent

I have a feeling he doesn't live up to his name this game, heh.

This does not feel like it comes from town. This feels like Rico is trying to phrase his justification for his random vote in such a way that if IAI is lynched/killed and flips town he can say it wasn't a serious vote, but if IAI is lynched and flips scum, he can say it was and try to invent some reason that he could have thought IAI was scum. I don't like it.

This is essentially the only 'content' RICO posted, and the only thing being commented upon. It actually looks to me a lot like:

Vote: I Am Innocent. Trying to make us believe you're town before the game has even started?

Clearly

scum.

It was more awkward phrasing, but it's saying essentially the same thing. I'm surprised you didn't disregard it as you did every other random vote justification.

Every reason given besides Rico's and Sigma's was clearly a joke, and there is no way anyone can argue that they weren't. Even Sigma's reason was totally unrelated to the potential alignments of other players. Rico, however, gave a reason that left room for him to claim it was serious if we lynched IAI and he flipped scum - IAI had posted by that point, so Rico theoretically could have been able to say there was something about those early posts that tipped him off.

@Everyone (well, mainly Trumpet and opa): Do you believe that RICO's posts are definitive indication of scum? (Just trying to figure out how seriously I need to take this.)

About as close as you can get that early in the game. And as I think I've mentioned before, the fact that he was posting in other games but not this one adds to his scumminess. (His subsequent flaking from the site, however, does not.)

@IAI, post 71: I like the way you think.

Post 71 called out a contradiction that I saw of Vino. Despite liking my evidence that I brought up, ToD never mentions Vino again, never includes him on his Top 2 list.

ATM, I do have a town read on Vino, though I'll admit I haven't been looking at him as closely as I can be - said read is largely because it feels like he's committed to actually playing the game. If you can summarize the Vino-scum case into one post, I'll take a look at it.

And Vino's last post.

Vino: yes, it is. Is it helpful? no. It isn't.

Reason why? Opa and Kiari have called my posts annoying and distracting. I am avoiding a prod and seeing how far you guys get before you realize that the lack of posting will be the downfall of everyone. Trumpet of doom has fallen into the background. You guys may want to start questioning him. Good luck.

Come on Thian, you of all people know this is anti-town behavior! And all just to teach us a lesson!? I think its unnecessarily far.

And with regards to Trumpet of Doom, yes, I have noticed his prolonged absence.

letting the game "Breathe" so to speak. in the words of Opa. So vino, if yo uare going to jump on me for following Kiari and Opa's advice. Please consider that first prior to trying to make me look scummy for "active lurking". you will eventually learn by example of good posting and bad posting which opa and kiari have both done, and mcgriddle.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here? Please re-phrase?

Both players making note of scummy comments brought up by others, but nothing to follow. No FOS, no votes, no real thoughts or strong opinion on it.

Just something I noticed.

Consider, though, that Vino hasn't said anything like "I'm not really suspicious of Thian anymore" - I'm reading his iso post 19, in which he changes his vote to Jora, as "Thian's not actively becoming more town, but Jora's becoming more scummy." So AFAICT, Vino still thinks Thian is scum and so does not further warrant an FoS, but also still thinks Jora is more deserving of a vote. I think you're town, but I also think there's a bit of confirmation bias at play in some of your anti-Vino posts.

In other news:

I have been prodded. Really busy weekend, sorry! Let me read back through the thread...

Apologies.. Had tons of varsity work once again this weekend. Attending a meeting for the next two hours and then will begin catching up. Sorry guys.

^Obv scum. Lurking and apologizing.

This looks suspiciously like you're accusing him of being scum for the exact same thing you just did. If you're town, you really shouldn't be calling him obvscum for it. (Yes, I know Sigma already made this point. No, I don't really care.)

}|{opa: Fairly scummy.

I don't like his L-1 vote on RICO

, and not many of his posts are game-related. Opa, were you deliberately trying to antagonise anyone?

Perhaps I've misinterpreted this statement, but I'm the one who cast the L-1 vote on RICO.

You did put him at L-1, but you weren't the first: before that, Jora had and then Vino unvoted.

Careful with comments like this, although I do appreciate your feeling I am town Opa

Perhaps it's just me, but this seems off. I don't think a townie would need to say that, it seems like an attempt to look pro-town.

Not really feeling it. That's one of those things it's nice to know regardless of alignment, though scum probably appreciate it more. And explicitly stated townlists

are

a bad idea if you think scum are trying to kill unlynchables ("ooh, so-and-so shows up on everyone's townlists"), unless you're trying to scumhunt by process of elimination, but you need to get later in the game for that to be effective. (There are other potential NK motivations, as mentioned earlier, but the fewer options you give them, the better.)

[Trumpet of Doom]

Jora for all of his distracting, non-game-related posts and for the craptastic case he tried to give on me. All of his posts on page 8 feel like thinly-disguised OMGUS, except for the bits about McG.

What is generally accepted theory on OMGUS votes and posts? Excuse my ignorance please.

Short version: Don't do it. It's scummy because you're not voting them for things they've done that are actually suspicious, you're just trying to get heat off of you.

Long version:
There's a difference between "being suspicious of someone because they've said they're suspicious of you" and "being suspicious of someone because they've said they're suspicious of you

for bad reasons

". One is OMGUS and scummy, the other is neither.
The first is scummy for reasons mentioned above. Scum's win condition depends more on the survival of any given scumbag than town's depends on the survival of any given townie, so scum have more of an incentive to try to avoid the lynch, and they'll usually do that by trying to throw suspicion on the people attacking them.
Here's why the second is not scummy:
Unless you're a power role that can confirm someone as town (cop; doc, if you successfully protect someone), you are the only player you know to be town, and therefore you are the only player that you know without a shadow of a doubt should not be lynched. If you can prevent yourself from being lynched by shooting holes in your attackers' arguments, it is to your advantage to do so, which is why in just about every game I can think of (except for one) in which I was attacked, I did what I could to tear the attacks to shreds.
Keep in mind, though: Not every attack against you is bad. If they're attacking you for reasons they aren't actually bad, they're not scummy for doing so. And you can only accuse people of being scum for attacking you if they're doing it for scummy reasons, or else you're OMGUSing.

@TrumpetOfDoom - Are you giving up on your idea of getting Top 3 scum lists?

I'd still like to see them; I've started to doubt that I'm going to get them, but I'd still like them.

If so, I would like to ask for the meta of where the associative tells are for Top 3 Scum Lists in games with 2 scum. If not, I will ask you if we all put forward our Top 3 scum lists, will you then show us the meta? Either way, I want proof that this associative tell thing exists. Otherwise, I think you get my vote based on lynch all liars.

I'd rather not contaminate the potential data pool any more than I absolutely have to. I will explain the tell (a) in my first post if I'm still alive the day after a scum lynch or (b) if I'm reminded during postgame discussion, whichever comes first. I know this tell works in games with at least 3 scum; I would imagine it probably also works in 2-scum games for reasons involving scum per number of players, but I haven't had a chance to do any kind of exhaustive study.

[Trumpet of Doom]

@Trumpet of Doom, same thing for Vino. Where would your rank him as far as scummiest goes among the other 8 players?

6th or 7th, probably. Again, I haven't looked at him very hard, so if someone were to make a case on him that I could look at (hint hint), that might change. (This might be a good time for a PBPA; for those who don't know, PBPA stands for Post-By-Post Analysis, where you go through every post a player's made and give your thoughts on it.)

+1 Excellent example. Scum at his first posts had said "I will attempt to lynch however has contributed the least to the discussion. I will do this no matter if anyone agrees or not." just like that. Then he realized that towns are comlete idiots, so he allowed them to lynch me which resulted in easy scum win.

There are a couple of things wrong with this post:
1. You're leaving out the first part of the statement you quoted: "If I don't find anyone scummy at the end of the day..." And later that Day, he was posting that he thought you were scum. (Frankly, I think I would have agreed.)
2. It was a 2v5 setup. Those are scum-sided to begin with. All you were doing was making their job easier.
Additionally, you're painting your lynch as the reason town lost? That carries strong implications of "I'm godawesome and you should all listen to me." I have very little respect for people who post things like that, because I read it as them thinking they're God's gift to scumhunters, when the opposite is much more likely to be true. (This applies to you too, Kiari.) Even Glork, who's earned the title "Burdened by Proficiency" and is seen as one of the best scumhunters on site, screws up occasionally.

FTR, I would be completely fine with a Jora lynch, since I don't think I'm getting an SO lynch today.

And now Thian's raised the possibility of IAI-scum. I'll have to take a look at IAI's iso to see if I agree/see other scummy things in it. I owe this game a reread, and I'm not sure when that's going to happen, but I will try to stay on top of the present in this game.

[Trumpet of Doom]

And now Thian's raised the possibility of IAI-scum. I'll have to take a look at IAI's iso to see if I agree/

see

other scummy

things in it

. I owe this game a reread, and I'm not sure when that's going to happen, but I will try to stay on top of the present in this game.

Thian, please do not respond yet.

I want to first hear what ToD thinks was scummy about me in that post above. So scummy that he feels the need to reread to find "other scummy" things about me.

Thian brought up something that I took as "selective use of meta." I'd have to take a look to see if that was right, and while I'm looking, update my read on you overall. And off the top of my head, I can't say I recall you generally taking strong stands on people's alignment, except Vino's and mine. If I'm right in remembering that you haven't, that's a Bad Sign, especially since I think you were the one that had a post about not giving strong stands earlier.

[Trumpet of Doom]

"selective use of meta", what the heck is that"

Take a wild guess. What does it sound like it ought to be?

Oh, and are you reading this thread

Not incessantly, not overly closely recently (yeah, my bad, I know), and I haven't looked at the start of the game in even longer. Hence the "I owe this game a reread" comment above. Are

you

reading this thread?

because I have taken many stands on many people throughout this game. See below for the many examples not including Vino that you just can't seem to recall. Cough, cough, scummy, cough...

unvote: Vino
vote: Trumpet of Doom

Here is my

not

taking stands on people***:

...If you ask me, as of the point I asked you, I have no problem saying that I think Thian was more scummy than Kiari. See it's not that hard. But either you are afraid to be backed into a corner, or you are afraid to make enemies, both of which hint scum.

...Some thoughts since my last post:

I am liking McGriddle and Thian the more they post. McGriddle's Post 75 is kind of how I felt about the Iopa vote.

Sigma's Post 77 are the type that drive me crazy. Newbie Town play or Scum play. I usually suspect Scum Play (see my tunneling on DrDolittle in Newbie 1061, who was indeed the Doctor ironically). Here's some free advice. Passive play helps scum. Get your vote out there, for both pressure sake and also to get it on record. If nobody votes, we have no voting trails and it makes scum much easier to hide.

@ Rico, sorry to hear about that. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but please explain why you were able to post in a few other games but not here. Also, please tell us the scummiest thing you have seen in this game to date...

Disagree with Thian's Post 110. Read that as Lynch All Lurkers. Let the mod take care of the lurkers with prodding/replacing. If they continue to lurk, they will expose themselves later in the game. But to suggest lynching them this early, I do not agree with.

*************************

Disagree with McGriddle's Post 113 and vote of Sigma. I think Sigma did a fair job of using his vote. He expressed concern for making it, and when he finally did make it, he put in big bold letters that his suspect was now at L-1. What is the problem with that?...

...I find this backpedaling suspicious, as do I find the request for Top 3 suspects suspicious in a game with only 2 scum. I have only ever seen requests for Top Suspect or Top 2 suspects personally, hence why my initial question...

@Thian, I find post 162 interesting. You list every player that has not been prodded twice yet. You seem to not have a solid town read on any of us. If I had to wager, it sounds like you think Vino and Sigma are the most town right now based on this "Sigma and You I am starting to see a better town light on you vino"

If this is true, why do you still have your vote on Vino? Explain how this is not a contradiction?

Something interesting at this point. I am innocent, and Trumpet of Doom. They do both give off vibes of townie, but you would think they would try to fuel the fire a bit more with coming around and posting.

They may infact be allowing townies to rip each other apart

.

And last but probably not least, vague statements like this are scummy. Esp when they are not true:

Disagree with McGriddle's Post 113 and vote of Sigma. I think Sigma did a fair job of using his vote. He expressed concern for making it, and when he finally did make it, he put in big bold letters that his suspect was now at L-1. What is the problem with that?

.....

Truth be told, I have not seen anything suspicious by Sigma, and defended him accordingly, as I will do with my town reads. I also defended kiari, who was another easy target early on. So I find your underlined statement above to be false. Agree now?

@Thian, why is your vote on a player you are leaning town vs a player you find scummy? You talk about being a prime NK target N1, but yet you are not leaving much of a trail if you do get NK'd...Contradiction?...

I will examine these at a later date, when I don't have four assignments due over the next two days. Also, I'm still waiting on a clearly stated Vino case from you - just because I probably won't have time to look at it immediately, that doesn't mean you shouldn't still do it.

FTR, I would be completely fine with a Jora lynch, since I don't think I'm getting an SO lynch today.

This actually surprised me a bit (surely no one would ever want to lynch

me

...); were you still seriously considering lynching my slot, or were you just pointing out that your views had changed?

I think that while he was in the game, Rico was the scummiest player, and I haven't given you a close enough look yet to see if you can shake that stigma. *adds SO to the list of people to iso over N1* However, Jora's my #2 suspect and has been for a while, and it's looking much more like he'll be lynched than you.

1. You're leaving out the first part of the statement you quoted: "If I don't find anyone scummy at the end of the day..." And later that Day, he was posting that he thought you were scum. (Frankly, I think I would have agreed.)

WFT? Scum can find anyone he wants to be scummy and vote. Piont is - he stated his legit right to vote lurkers

In that case, the part about town lynching you and losing is irrelevant to the point you're trying to make and didn't need to be in the post to begin with. And FWIW, I think that

if

you don't have any scumreads at a point in the game when you should, lurker-hunting or active-lurker-hunting is a passable way to figure out who to lynch. Not great by any means - I won't build a case solely on "so-and-so's a lurker" if I can help it, it'll be more like "so-and-so's a lurker, and when they've posted..." - but it's a place to start.

2. It was a 2v5 setup. Those are scum-sided to begin with. All you were doing was making their job easier.

2Scums vs (2PR+3VT). Actually what I've proposed was a massclaim and that was good in this situation. (Cop should claim as miller too.)

2v5 is pretty much always scumsided, unless you put in a fuckton of town power (like 3 sane cops) or do the original newbie setup (which can be broken by Follow the Cop).

Additionally, you're painting your lynch as the reason town lost?

No - reason is they were idiots. For example Thor665's posts form very begining was archi-idiotic and no one town except me was saying nothing. My lynch and town lose is just consequences.

That is not how 224 is written. The way 224 is written, it implies a direct causation between town lynching you specifically (as opposed to any other townie D1) and town's loss.

I can buy that town lost because they were idiots. I don't think I'd completely agree with the statement that town lynched you because they were idiots ("obviously town" is very much not how I'd describe your play in that game), but I can buy that idiots in the town lynched you (though both scum were on your lynchwagon, and I expect at least one of them was pushing a somewhat decent case). Where you really lose me is when you claim that town lost because they lynched you (while I suppose it's technically true in that they lost because they lynched two town players and you happened to be one of them, that's not what's implied by "town lynched me, which resulted in an easy scum win").

And now Thian's raised the possibility of IAI-scum.

Vino had risen it before.

*looks* So he had. And your point is...? Thian had just brought it up as I was writing, while Vino had mentioned it a week and a half ago.

That carries strong implications of "I'm godawesome and you should all listen to me." I have very little respect for people who post things like that, because I read it as them thinking they're God's gift to scumhunters, when the opposite is much more likely to be true.

Fuck off. I've failed to find scums in Open 248 and admit it. I've playing this game since 2005 and never ever said nothing like you trying to misrep, so fuck off again.

the opposite is much more likely to be true.

However, I considering this ^^^ as an insult. Can't imagine nothing worse. Fell free to send me to hell and f* myself - I will remain calm, but when somebody posting two links with such an offensive content it drives me crazy.

Yeesh. Someone's touchy. All I was trying to say was that the most obvious interpretation of one of your posts makes me think you think you're a better scumhunter than you really are, with all the implications about your usefulness to town that that carries. If that offended you, you need to take a massive chill pill.

My understanding of "being scummy" is when you're the mafia.

[nitpick style="wiseass"]No, that's "being scum". "Being scum

my

" is when you're acting in a manner consistent with being scum.[/nitpick]

Unvote: Thian
Vote: }|{opa

I trust the other votes so therefore I vote for }|{opa.

.
.
.
Never do this when you're replacing in. For all you know, both scum could be on the wagon. The general rule is "don't vote until you've actually read the thread and have opinions."

Please explain how ToD was "backpedaling" here, IAI? I don't see it...

Monday, 4/18 from ToD to me: "I think you're town, but I also think there's a bit of confirmation bias at play in some of your anti-Vino posts."

********

26.5 hours later "And

now

Thian's raised the possibility of IAI-scum. I'll have to take a look at IAI's iso to see if I agree/see

other

scummy things in it. I owe this game a reread, and I'm not sure when that's going to happen, but I will try to stay on top of the present in this game."

So in a short time he goes from thinking 1) I am town to 2) now I am prepared to jump on the first accusation thrown his way to start looking for other things that are scummy since one thing was brought up that was scummy.

********

When I question him on what was so scummy

now

that he was ready to start looking for

other

things that are scummy, he backpedaled:

"Thian brought up something that I took as "selective use of meta." I'd have to take a look to see if that was right, and while I'm looking, update my read on you overall."

I'm not sure you quite understand the meaning of "backpedaling." Backpedaling is when you make a statement and then, when questioned about it, say something like "Oh, I didn't really mean that, what I actually meant was (other statement, which may be different from the original in content or merely in intensity)." Which is not what I did.

Why use the word "other" if you have not verified the original scummy item.

Because whether or not the original is there, there may be scummy things that are not the thing that originally prompted the search.

But wait, it gets worse. This town read from just 1+ days ago has

TOTALLY SHIFTED WITHOUT A REREAD

:

"And off the top of my head, I can't say I recall you generally taking strong stands on people's alignment, except Vino's and mine. If I'm right in remembering that you haven't,

that's a Bad Sign

, especially since I think you were the one that had a post about not giving strong stands earlier."

Why the attack (that's a Bad Sign...capital letters) prior to your reread. It is like he is trying to throw out suspicions without verifying.

And when I get around to taking a close look at you, if I don't find that you've done much in the way of scummy things, I will once again have a town read on you. ATM, I'm at a point where I think most of my reads are probably off, and I haven't had time to correct them.

@Vino, do you think ToD backpedaled at all with his Top 3 scum request and why he asked for three specifically?

I'd also like to point out that I never said I was going to tell the

whole

truth about whatever I try to get you to do.

[Trumpet of Doom]

I'd also like to point out that I never said I was going to tell the

whole

truth about whatever I try to get you to do.

To clarify this: I am not going to post things I believe to be untrue. However, if I think it's not important that you know why I'm doing what I'm doing, I might not tell you, and if I think it's important that you not know why I'm doing what I'm doing, I'll do what I can to avoid telling you.

[Trumpet of Doom]

@ Trumpet of Doom I believe you have nothing to tell us and just fogging that simple truth.

Well, the only way you're going to find out before the end of the game is if I live to the day after a scum lynch.

P.S. Yes, I think you're scum. And you had insulted me. No hard feelings.

That was not my intent; if I did, I'm sorry.

@ Random Question of the day: All Imagine if you cheated (i. e. was doing random stuff and somehow) got the name of scum, would you try to make a case or would you tell the mod and replace out insted?

Probably replace out,

then

see if I could make a case.

I saw SO's one post as being sarcastic, the one Vino and others jumped on "surely no one would ever want to lynch me").

This I can agree with.

Plus post like this make me think Rico/SO is being used as an easy target:

I would like to hear Trumpet's Top 2 Scum Suspects as of Post 171.

Rico and Jora (probably), in that order.

Hmmm, two easy targets. "Ride the wave" much do you?

How does

starting

the Rico wagon constitute "riding the wave"? And I was suspicious of Jora all the way back in post 73, again before anyone else had mentioned the thing I did. If I'm riding the wave, I'm riding the very front of it.

PS - To the newbie players, this is also something I look for in scumhunting. Very subtle but telling none-the-less:

ATM, I'm at a point where I think most of my reads are probably off, and I haven't had time to correct them

Pretty late day one, and here is a player who already has an apology set up for a mislynch. "I'm at a point where I think most of my reads are probably off"

Hey ToD, if you feel this way, and since 1) you feel Vino is town but 2) "most" of your reads are off, will you join me, McGriddle, and I am sure we can talk Iopa into voting Vino? Put your money where your mouth is?

For the third or fourth time: Show me in one post all the reasons he's scum, and I might.
Besides, just because I think most of my reads are off doesn't necessarily mean I know

which

reads I think are off, just that a relatively large number of them are.

I fogot about psycological part of the game. Now it's time to apply my knowledge. Hey, town, look here:

Probably I'm not good at reasoning. You can and probably will deflect my further acusations just saying that i'm budding to I am Innocent. But you really bad at playing scum.
My illiterate ass says: die!

All you were doing was making their job easier.
Additionally, you're painting your lynch as the reason town lost? That carries strong implications of "I'm godawesome and you should all listen to me." I have very little respect for people who post things like that, because I read it as them thinking they're God's gift to scumhunters, when the opposite is much more likely to be true. (This applies to you too, Kiari.) Even Glork, who's earned the title "Burdened by Proficiency" and is seen as one of the best scumhunters on site, screws up occasionally.

FTR, I would be completely fine with a Jora lynch, since I don't think I'm getting an SO lynch today.

And now Thian's raised the possibility of IAI-scum. I'll have to take a look at IAI's iso to see if I agree/see other scummy things in it. I owe this game a reread, and I'm not sure when that's going to happen, but I will try to stay on top of the present in this game.

That's called

the symmetrical reaction

. Me in #180: "you're bad at being scum." He is offended and angry, he ignoring me ( #182 ). And only later in #227 he finally lost his patience, "you're bad at being town." - he said in very offensive manner. He was trying hard to hurt me. Yes, scum would never say that he is scum, but his subconsciousness failed him. He overdid with all those links.

Here's the thing, though: I

know

I suck as scum - my most recent scum game is, I think, the only game I've gone on record as saying I'd like to forget ever happened. So you telling me that I'm bad at playing scum really isn't news to me at all.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Hey guys.

I just noticed something.

Jora has tried pretty much throughout the entire game to discredit me (iso posts 0-3, 12, 19, 21, 29, 42, 44), McG (10, 43, 49-50, 53-54) and Thian (11-16, 48, 55-56). In other words, the guy who's been on site longest, the guy who claims to have played the most games, and the IC, or the three people who would be most expected to know how to play the game. Trying to discredit the three people who should most know what they're talking about, especially when at least one of us has to be town and the probability that the scumteam is two of us is only 1 in 12, is highly anti-town at best, and ad-hominem attacks like "you suck and are therefore scum" or "you're a Nazi" are actively scummy. About the only reason I can see for doing that is if he's trying to get rid of people who will tell town things other than what he wants them to hear so that he can be town's leader, which is also scummy unless you have the reputation to back it up. Combine that with the deadline approaching, and there's only one thing that makes sense for me to do.

Unvote; Vote: }|{opa

- L-1, know you'll be hammering, etc.

Here's the thing, though: I know I suck as scum - my most recent scum game is, I think, the only game I've gone on record as saying I'd like to forget ever happened. So you telling me that I'm bad at playing scum really isn't news to me at all.

Nope. Don't try to look untouched. You said about your 1st scum game before. I've alredy knowed it.

And my point was this: I've answered that still nothing is chanced in your play, so you will probably be suck as scum forever. And that is offensive.

Wait... am I reading this right? You were trying to offend me?

@ToD, Re: "For the third or fourth time: Show me in one post all the reasons he's scum, and I might."

Response - Weren't you planning to do a reread of me to find "other scummy" things about me. My reread should show you the things I had issues with regarding Vino.

Perhaps, but you're probably more likely to convince me if you put it into one big post because I'm more likely to think, "Wow, that's a lot of stuff," when I see it if it's all in one place. Besides, it's your case. You should be the one trying to convince everyone else of its merits.

There was even one item that you agreed with, I think you said something similar to you liking the way I think regarding a question I put to Vino. Let's have a scavenger hunt and see if you can find it...

@ToD, Re: "Besides, just because I think most of my reads are off doesn't necessarily mean I know which reads I think are off, just that a relatively large number of them are."

"Large number" feels like a number more than half from what I can tell.

I have 2 scum reads

, so if I am wrong about them and two town reads are really scum, at most I would be 4 outta 8 wrong on my reads. But you seem to be sure that "a relatively large number of them are" off for you. Why is that? I continue to challenge that is you giving yourself an out for when one of your "scum reads" flip town, you can fall back on that.

Bolded: I'm not sure I believe this. What is your read on McGriddle? How about on sanchocolates? On Jora?

Quote block in general: There's a certain amount of "goddammit guys, you can't all be scum" at play on my end. Beyond Rico/SO and Jora, you and Kiari/sancho are setting off alarm bells (you: I'm asking for something simple like "consolidate what you've already posted" and you're avoiding it; sancho: horrible entrance into the game, then vanished, and I still think there's a Kiari-scum case that could be made).

IAI/ToD NOT scum team:
One thing I am certain of in this game, however, is that IAI and ToD are NOT the scum team. I'm not saying neither of them are scum, just that it's definitely not both of them. They've been hitting out too hard at each other, and it seems to be very genuine aggression. I can't see partners doing that against each other, even if was just for show.

ToD:
I've been looking at ToD and even though I was trying to see him in a negative light in order to try and get a feel for IAI's view point against him, I just can't see it. I don't feel he's been over defensive despite being attacked repeatedly, and I don't think he was doing any "backpedalling" with his three scum reads. I believe he gave up on getting the three scum reads from every one.. but I think that was more down to pretty much everyone else just refusing to oblige him than him trying to get himself out of the situation.

Perceptive, this one.

@ Trumpet of Doom, lurk out, I know you watching. Have you ever played with McG before?

No.

@ I Am Innocent Do you see ToD + McG as a scum team?

Spoiler:

I'm asking because I see it very clear. The way McG interacted with ToD in early days is 100% coincides with his scum-meta. As far as I know McG still don't like being lynched, two times in past he fakeclaimed to avoid a lynch. The contradiction of his vote on me in the light of this post (and others, when he tells that Vino is scummier than me) makes him look way more scummy, so why he did it? May be he attacked me because I attacked his partner ToD? Also, his connection to ToD is seen from very begining (RV+"Oh Thian is in here!"+almost all of his early posts commenting on ToD or on the guys who commented ToD). All this tells me that McG & ToD = scum buddies. Damn, that is so obvious, let them just give up and we end this comedy.

This from the guy who earlier was certain that the scumteam was Rico and one of (me/McG).

[Trumpet of Doom]

Yay wall posts.
Yay wall posts being posted at 4 in the morning.
Yay wall posts that may or may not be entirely coherent.
You have been warned.

Hey ToD, why no posts the last 3 days?

1) It was Easter weekend, and
B) it was my grandfather's birthday, and
III) I go to college in the same city my family lives in. I kinda had family obligations.

Also, thanks for proving the point that you have no interest in scumhunting:

1) "and I still think there's a Kiari-scum case that could be made"

2) "Perhaps, but you're probably more likely to convince me if you put it into one big post because I'm more likely to think, "Wow, that's a lot of stuff," when I see it if it's all in one place. Besides, it's your case. You should be the one trying to convince everyone else of its merits."

Priorities. Getting a lynch at all D1 is highly important. If it lands on someone I think is scummy, that's great; if it hits someone I think is anti-town, that's still good (Jora falls into both categories); if it hits someone I think is town (and I'm right), I will not be pleased, but oh well; and if we no-lynch, I will be even less pleased than if we lynch someone I correctly think is town. Whether or not I think Kiari/sancho or Vino are scum, those player slots are not viable lynch targets today.

@ToD, you say: "I'm asking for something simple like "consolidate what you've already posted" and you're avoiding it" and my response is that you said you would Iso me. That is also pretty simple. Why don't you do it, or don't you care about scumhunting?

Because I'm lazy and I procrastinate. There, I said it. (Also, I might be trying to make you take another look at your own case to see if you can still sell yourself on it; that is neither the original nor the primary reason, but it might be a contributing factor.) As for you, your continued refusal to present your Vino case in an organized manner utterly fails to convince me of either Vino's scumminess or your townness.

@ToD, I think Iopa is town, typical easy target D1. Sancho/kiari I have already commented on. I don't see scum, but yet that was a weak vote coming in the game by sancho that I did not care for. More disturbed by the going MIA at such a crucial part of the game. As for McGriddle, see above.

...Convenient.

Vino contradicts himself early in the game multiple times, yet is not on your scum list. I am because I won't put a case together on Vino when 1) I already have done so & 2) you said you were going to Iso me, which means you will read that case.

If you've already compiled it, you should have no problem finding it and either linking it or quoting it, especially since you'd be the one who knows where to look. You'd also be reducing the number of things I need to look for when I iso you, which means I will be able to focus more of my attention on getting a better read on you, and if you're town, you want this.

Lamo OMGUS.

I'm

OMGUSing? Jora's been my #2 for how long?

Also complete lack of scumhunting.

People aren't really doing anything to make me change my reads, such as they are.

That and your obv active lurking just adds to your scumminess.

...I'm not sure you're using the same definition of "active lurking" I am. As I understand it, active lurking generally involves actual posting, but of fluff. My posts have all been game-relevant.

Jora has tried pretty much throughout the entire game to discredit me (iso posts 0-3, 12, 19, 21, 29, 42, 44), McG (10, 43, 49-50, 53-54) and Thian (11-16, 48, 55-56). In other words, the guy who's been on site longest, the guy who claims to have played the most games, and the IC, or the three people who would be most expected to know how to play the game. Trying to discredit the three people who should most know what they're talking about, especially when at least one of us has to be town and the probability that the scumteam is two of us is only 1 in 12, is highly anti-town at best,

Misrep. Discredit? It's scumhut. Simple. Are you want us to follow you, or Thian, or McG (lol) without even asking questions?

On theory? I mean, that is what we're here for. Questions are great; "you're wrong" without logical arguments sucks, and comparisons to the Nazis are worse.
On who's scum? No, as I believe I've stated before.

Combine that with the deadline approaching, and there's only one thing that makes sense for me to do.

Oh, I see. You was lurking and waiting for that moment to come. "deadline approaching, so I can vote and don't care".

In a perfect world, I would be able to convince everyone that Rico deserved a lynch and that SO has not significantly changed that.
In a perfect world, I would have already looked for IAI's case on Vino.
In a perfect world, I would know who the scum are already and be able to convince everyone else.
This is not a perfect world. But the prime lynch candidate has been one of my suspects for a while, so I'm okay with voting him.

Besides, it's your case. You should be the one trying to convince everyone else of its merits.

Lol, IAI think you're scum. Why does he need to convince a scum to vote another person who he thinks is scum too? Townies should think on their own. And read all the cases.

Thinks

I'm scum, sure.

Knows

I'm scum, no. Knows Vino's scum, not unless they're scumbuddies... so no. So either he gives town-me a decent reason to vote Vino or gives scum-me a decent reason to push Vino's mislynch or bus him, as applicable. And of course I'm going to analyze the case - what do you take me for?

This from the guy who earlier was certain that the scumteam was Rico and one of (me/McG).

What? You trying to discredit me just for it?

The point is that your certainties should be taken with a grain of salt. Or a shaker, as the case may be. (Do tell me if that figure of speech doesn't translate well.)

Yes, I think RICO/SO is not a scum atm. And what? Should I know the both scums from very begining?

I'm going to assume that's a rhetorical question, and that you're not actually looking for an answer.

Besides, isn't it you wrote this: "There's a certain amount of "goddammit guys, you can't all be scum" at play on my end. Beyond Rico/SO and Jora, you and Kiari/sancho are setting off alarm bells". <- he targeting for easy lynches only.

what is this i dont even

Vino, Sigma - IMO we have a better chances of lynching scum if you will vote ToD instead of McG. If you can't see why he is obv scum, just trust one of me or IAI, we can't be scums both.

Sure you can. I'm not sure how likely it is, but it's theoretically possible.

Remember how you voted me, for keeping away from "wrath of our IC"? ToD blatantly do it all the time. And even worse he buddying Thian and... McG! And looking for the easyest ways to place his vote (except McG, for some reason). I donno how this could be said by town! Just I doubt that if McG is his buddy so why does he make things that clear? So McG could be used as a shield by ToD. I.e. if ToD flips scum - McG would be 99% lynched anyways, but if now we lynch McG and he flips town - then ToD would be "shielded" by this D1 "mishap" -> next (very likely) me will be lynched on D2. = 2 misslynches and scums in a day before the win.

You're going to have to explain this to me again. And use small words so that I get it, please.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Wall of useless shit ^^^ He said nothing helpful.

Would you rather I didn't respond to things directed at me? (That's a rhetorical question, BTW, you don't need to answer that.)

It hurts town especially, when it's a day before the deadline all the words should be weighed. If it's not a ill-intentioned distraction I donno what it is. Scum, scum, scum.

Tunnel vision much?

And he lied about those three days - he was here, but lurking. He maked a posts in another thread.

So now I'm scum because when I got back, I did modding stuff but not playing stuff? That's incredibly bad form, sir.

Protip: Modding a game doesn't take anywhere near as much time as playing a game. Scan for votes, post vote counts, scan for things you need to answer, answer them, scan for V/LA declarations, take note of them, check prod timers, send prods, check replacement timers, ask for replacements - those are the things you need to do as a mod during a Day phase, and if you're doing it right, you can do it in 15 minutes. (Do we have anyone else who has modded and can back me up on this?) So if I only did modding stuff, I might simply not have had time to play this game.

Also, he lying when pretending to have a strong, solid and old case on me. Well, he could been suspecting me from an ancient times, but all the evidences of it that we can see are here:

...This is not a "damn good reason." This looks to me like an RVS reason and trying to pass off responsibility for what I can only assume was intended as a serious vote. If you have a more serious reason (like one based on something he did) for why you put Rico at L-1, I request that you give it; until then,

FOS: }|{opa.

It's only misrep and speculation based on my second random vote. Second random vote is not a scumtell.
In light of this it's really fun to watch how he demands more and more posts with reasonings from IAI.

The issue there is that you were trying to put a random vote on a serious wagon. You Do Not Do That. And if (a) the wagon had gone to lynch and (b) Rico is actually town, you would easily have been the scummiest player on the wagon, because you had no reason for your vote

and

called for a hammer without a claim.

Also, I just can't stop laughing at this:

Jora has tried pretty much throughout the entire game to discredit me (iso posts 0-3, 12, 19, 21, 29, 42, 44),

McG

(10, 43, 49-50, 53-54) and Thian (11-16, 48, 55-56). (...) About the only reason I can see for doing that is if

he's trying to get rid of people who will tell town things

other than what he wants them to hear

so that he can be town's leader, which is also scummy

unless you have

the reputation to back it up

.

LMAO - McG will tell me town things!

Psst: "town" is the indirect object of "tell", not an adjective modifying "things". "Things" is modified by "other than what [you want] them to hear". Hope that clears things up.

And by reputation you meant: have a PR, scum?

No, I actually meant "have a reputation as a good scumhunter." If I'd meant PR, I would have said PR. Quit twisting my words to mean anything other than what I actually said, scumbag.

Or I should bring you the games where I become confirmed (somehow) and successfully had been led town to their victory? Simple enough - look at my wiki (or at my site if you can read Russian). Town almost always winned when I was a Cop. And I was a Cop many times.

Consider the low opinion I have of your scumhunting skills. I know you're wrong about me, and I think it's not impossible for you to be/have been bussing SO or McG. I can, to a certain extent, believe that you believe what you're saying (if you're town) - I just don't think I believe what you're saying.

Post 333 - ToD's reason for Iopa's attack seem weak to me considering how many SE/IC we have in this game. "About the only reason I can see for doing that is if he's trying to get rid of people who will tell town things other than what he wants them to hear so that he can be town's leader, which is also scummy unless you have the reputation to back it up."

You even admit here that

he does not have the reputation to back it up, which nullifies the case

but yet you still vote for him to L-1.

No. No it doesn't. It's what makes that particular tell applicable. Look up the meaning of the word "unless" and come back.

@everyone not named Thian/McGriddle. Thian mentioned a couple of times on the prior page that McGriddle offered himself up for a lynch. Did anyone take that offer seriously?

I think how I interpreted it was that McG meant "if you think it would be more beneficial to town to lynch me sooner rather than later, do it now," and was sincere in saying it. Sure, it could be a ploy, but I'm not sure I feel it ATM.

When ToD flips scum, if I am not around, do not forget this line at a crucial part of D1

:

Opa, I have made mention before that I would not be happy with a ToD lynch, and this has not changed. My vote on McG is due to my belief that he is the scummiest player, has been actively lurking and has openly evaded questioning from others. My vote remains with McG, or will change to IaI or Sanchocolates if their wagons become greater than McG's. I will not have any other lynch on my hands, and I can't see how my views will change this close to the deadline.

I would probably be very entertained by seeing your face when I flip town. Just throwing that out there.

More signs of laziness from ToD in 345: "You'd also be reducing the number of things I need to look for when I iso you, which means I will be able to focus more of my attention on getting a better read on you, and if you're town, you want this."

"People aren't really doing anything to make me change my reads, such as they are."

A) Did you miss the part where I

admitted in thread

to being lazy? Why do you insist on trying to prove the point?
B) That first quote isn't even really an example, more of just a statement of fact. If you're town, me getting a better read on you would probably involve that read becoming more of a town read (which presumably you want), and the more attention I focus on getting that better read, the more likely it is that it'll be accurate. And again, it's your case. Take pride in it, make it look good, and put it all out here in one place. Why is that so hard to understand?

[Trumpet of Doom]

Tunnel vision much?

WTF? You accuse me of being suspicious of you, Thian and McG (also I had been questioning almost everyone in this game). Where is the tunnel?

Look at what it was a response to. The tunneling is the "LYNCH TOD LYNCH TOD LYNCH TOD LYNCH TOD LYNCH TOD LYNCH TOD" part of so fucking many of your posts. What were your last five posts that were pushing a case other than mine? (Links will be acceptable.)

So now I'm scum because when I got back, I did modding stuff but not playing stuff? That's incredibly bad form, sir.

Protip: *blah-balh-blah-how-important-i-am* (Do we have anyone else who has modded and can back me up on this?) So if I only did modding stuff, I might simply not have had time to play this game.

So, you admit that you intentionally avoided the truth (of course that does not meant you was lying, ha-ha).

I got back late Sunday and had time to check my modded game and even start writing a post here, but not enough to finish it. Goddammit, what do you want me to say?!

Yes, I've modded more games than you.

Then you should know that modding should

always

be priority #1 when on site.

Placing a good in-game post usually takes equal time (if you you have been following thread and making a notes).

Has it not been established that I haven't really been doing that?

The issue there is that you were trying to put a random vote on a serious wagon. You Do Not Do That. And if (a) the wagon had gone to lynch and (b) Rico is actually town, you would easily have been the scummiest player on the wagon, because you had no reason for your vote

and

called for a hammer without a claim.

Ok. I had played with a flippant attitude. I admited it. I've done with it a long time ago, dont ya see?

You did it once it should have been clear that the time for it had passed. That's the scummy part.

Psst: "town" is the indirect object of "tell", not an adjective modifying "things". "Things" is modified by "other than what [you want] them to hear". Hope that clears things up.

I'm not so bad at English. Don't even try, Mr. Logical Failure. So you saying that without "town" it correct -> "LMAO - McG will tell me things!".

"...who would be expected to tell town..." Besides, he's not dead yet - just because he hasn't contributed much yet doesn't mean he's not going to kick it into gear on subsequent Days.

And that I am scum who had been "trying to get rid of people who will tell town things other than what he wants them to hear" (<-

scum wants to hear scummy things

, right? so "other things" = "town things" in this context).

Mmm... no. Scum want to hear things that will get them out of being lynched. If you're being scummy, you would want people to think the scumtells you're committing aren't actually scumtells.

I

admitted in thread

to being lazy? Why do you insist on trying to prove the point?

Ha-ha-ha. Best defence of the week!

Haha, no. I'm not defending myself from allegations of laziness, I'm acknowledging their truth. It is what it is, and I know it's something I need to work on... eventually.

However, continually trying to prove a point that has already been conceded is unnecessary at best, and IMO, scummy. So yes, I think that's a reason IAI could be scum.

I would probably be very entertained by seeing your face when I flip town. Just throwing that out there.

By saying this you're assuming I Am Innocent is town because if he was scum he would already know you were town (assuming you're not the scum team), and it would not surprise him. Are you confident enough in your reads to assume him town?

Hmm. Yeah, it does kinda look like I'm saying that, doesn't it? Honestly, I wasn't thinking too much when I wrote that. (What? It's finals week, I have other things on my mind.) If I had to justify it, the justification would probably look something like this: "I think IAI is scummy, but I also think there are two scummier players than him, which sorta makes him town by default." But no, I'm not confident enough in my reads to assume him town.

Also, this

Consider the low opinion

I have

of your scumhunting skills.

I know you're wrong about me, and I think it's not impossible for you to be/have been bussing SO or McG.

He actually speak with me like he thinks that I'm town. Opinion on my skills? I would never said nothing like this ^^^ to a guy who I'm thinking to be a scum and whom I voting for that reason.
SCUM COUGHT GUILTY SCUM VOTE FOR A SCUM

This, however, is a complete stretch. What I'm saying there is that even if you're town, you're probably wrong, and if you're scum, your listed suspicions are near-worthless (except for that one tell that you won't learn about if you lynch me now). Either way, even if you're town (which I don't think you are), you're a liability and therefore should be dealt with before LyLo. (And I have, as town, tried to lynch someone for more or less exactly that reason - I think they're scum, and even if they're town, they'll be a distraction of we let them get to LyLo. See Open 180, which you can find yourself.)

Opa, why do you say "Your" town if you are town along with sanchocolate, shouldn't it be, lend "Our" town a hand. You aren't including yourself in the group. Why?

What does it matter? I mean sorry if that looks rude or not, offence is not intended in any way, I'm just curious. Do you need to be careful of how you post things or what? Me = confused

If he's scum, he's not town and therefore won't be thinking about himself as a part of town. It'd be a slip that tells us he's scum. (On that note, thank you for pointing that out, Thian, I would have missed it.)

[Trumpet of Doom]

I'll be here for a couple of hours at least - I will almost certainly be searching for a replacement in my modded game shortly after midnight, but I do have a 9:00 final tomorrow morning and want to sleep for it. (For reference, that's two hours after deadline.)

If he's scum, he's not town and therefore won't be thinking about himself as a part of town. It'd be a slip that tells us he's scum. (On that note, thank you for pointing that out, Thian, I would have missed it.)

ToD you jumped on what I percieved to be a slip really quick without analyzing the grammar, unlike Vino, or Opa, or Sanchocolate.

I probably figured that what I saw as wrong with it would be obvious - I thought he was leaving out an "a" in the phrase "lend your town a hand", which would show that he doesn't think of himself as town (and also knows sancho is town). Silly me, assuming anything is obvious, I should have learned by now not to do that. The explanation he gave... well, w/e, I'll accept it, since I don't know Russian.

[Trumpet of Doom]

(Also: Hey look, a post from me that doesn't take up the entire screen!)

[Trumpet of Doom]

@424: Yeah, um, that was actually him commenting on SO's reads. Not that he's not still scum, but that's not why he's scum. (Count the negatives in each clause, starting... now.)

[Trumpet of Doom]

Thian: Sure. Do you want me to?

[Trumpet of Doom]

VT.

[Trumpet of Doom]

And now we get into the debate over "why the hell would I fakeclaim VT if I could fakeclaim cop or doc and try to find out what PRs are actually in the setup?"

[Trumpet of Doom]

@472: Ha. If I was scum, I would have brought up what to fakeclaim in my pregame chat with my buddy.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Scum claiming VT: Be that as it may, the PR info helps scum a lot more than it does town, and I'd want to get it out there ASAP while being less than direct about it. Besides, are those scum generally newbies or SEs/ICs?

Thian: Then I guess pick the one you think is less bad.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Also, good night.

[Trumpet of Doom]

GODDAMMIT MCGRIDDLE WHY WOULD YOU FAKECLAIM COP AS TOWN I KNOW JORA WAS SCUMMY BUT JESUS CHRIST MAN

*ahem*

...Well. Good game, scum. Especially Sigma, I don't think anyone really suspected you.

I actually had questioned the FoS and why it is used. It is used in these circumstances where if you are to lose, but you want to make it known where your vote is going but you don't want to risk the game in case you are wrong, that is when it would have been better to FoS instead of actually vote.

FWIW, I use HoS's (Hands of Suspicion) for a similar purpose: "I would be voting you right now, except (insert extenuating circumstance here)."

ToD: You really did a great game, I really am sorry for voting you. The more I thought about it, the more guilty I felt, hopefully though you understand, I did really want to keep roles hidden at least for scum so they were worried.

Keep in mind, I've actually given advice to lynch VT claims made outside of massclaim. No hard feelings, you did what you had to.

Wow... First off, I really have to applaud Trumpet of Doom. I wish he could've seen my face when he noticed something scummy in RICO's first post. I was just astonished.

By the way ToD, what was that associative scumtell you were talking about D1?

Ah yes, this.

When scum name their three primary suspects, the way to bet is that exactly one of those three players is on their scumteam.

It is by no means guaranteed, but I've found it fairly reliable. (Maybe less so with 2-player scumteams, but I still would have brought it up.)

Trumpet, I can't believe you got lynched. I honestly could not see why you were so scummy.

Join the club.

Also, I really couldn't see what was so scummy about RICO ACT...

I'll see if I can explain it again:

Rico's justification for his random vote was: "I have a feeling he doesn't live up to his name this game, heh." To me, the "I have a feeling" and the "heh" just

scream

"I know something you don't know, I know something you don't know..." and the only way he could have such knowledge would be if he was scum.

Then he stopped posting here, but continued posting in another game. Most players prefer being town to being scum and will put more effort into a game where they're town than one where they're scum.

Lastly, in his only other post here, he said, "Good to see I'm in the hotseat for being inactive. Flawless scummy logic." He's right that an accusation of scumminess based on declared inactivity would be scummy

if that was the charge being leveled

, but it wasn't. And accusing someone of voting you for bad reasons when they're not is itself a scummy action.