There Will Be Bloodshed (Game Over)

[TwoHeadedBoy]

At the least post a case on emp

Look back one day.

~Fugi

[Empking]

At the least post a case on emp

Look back one day.

~Fugi

Isn't your main reason for voting me because he don't like having a list of seven green names? That's not really a case.

[TwoHeadedBoy]

At the least post a case on emp

Look back one day.

~Fugi

Isn't your main reason for voting me because he don't like having a list of seven green names?

No.

~Fugi

[Empking]

At the least post a case on emp

Look back one day.

~Fugi

Isn't your main reason for voting me because he don't like having a list of seven green names?

No.

~Fugi

Oh so it that second or something? What's your top reason?

[TwoHeadedBoy]

My top reason, I suppose if I had to pick one, would be the entirety of your voting history, notably in its relation to the voted player and the others on the wagons you've been a part of.

~Fugi

[Pine]

My top reason, I suppose if I had to pick one, would be the entirety of your voting history, notably in its relation to the voted player and the others on the wagons you've been a part of.

~Fugi

I've

seen

Mastin's VCA case and that explanation didn't make sense to me.

I'd explain it, but I'm a novice with VCA, and would probably screw up the explanation. I'll leave it to Icey or THB.

[Zdenek]

Here are my reads:

The people who are not confirmed town are

IceC
Pine
C-Worl
Hiriaki
Empking
Silver Bullet
Nhammen
Hopper

I am inclinded to believe Wraith's claim, since I would expect there to be a protective role in the game. THB is town. I am willing to accept Mastin's argument that Pine is town, and I also have a town read on him from his day two argument with Parama. Similarly, I think that the stubbornness that C-Worl showed in his argument with Calcifer over them explaining their reads was towny. So I'm taking him off the list. Leaving us with

IceC
Hiriaki
Empking
Silver Bullet
Hopster
Nhammen

Here are my opinions of these players:

IceyC

I am not inclined to believe that he is town because of his role as neighborizer, but I think that there is little scummy coming from that slot. I'm not going to pretend that I have a great read of it, but I don't think it would be a good lynch for today.

Hiriaki: I think Hiriaki is scum. Looking at DLG's play, I think that his second post of the game was too aggressive for page two. As far as Hiriaki goes:

If you admit that this is what happened in one game, where I'm assuming you flipped town, then why would you want another supposed town lynch now?

Asking obviously pointless questions.

Also his case on Calcifer was laughable.

Empking:

His play in this game is very uncharacteristic of what I have seen from him in the past when he's been town, so meta tells me that he is scum.

Silverbullet: His posts seem pretty open and aggressive, so I think he's probably town, and at least isn't a good lynch today.

Hoppster: He's scum because of this reaction to Antihero's claim:

Regarding Antihero's 'cop/hider' claim, eh... don't really buy it.

He doesn't believe the claim, but he's wishy-washy about this belief, and it reads like he knows it might be true.

As far as ConfidAnon goes, he barely posted, but what he did post was padded with IIoA. He also voted for Empking without providing any reasoning. Since I think Empking is scum, I think this is an example of one scum buddy voting for another knowing that if a lynch occurs his vote won't be questioned.

Nhammen: He's scummy mostly because of the timing of his posts. However, his vote is in a good place right now.
He tries to invent contradictions:

There was no null section, so you got a free pass based on benefit of the doubt.

Would you like to explain this apparent contradiction? You have reasons for everyone, but I was a null read? Something is missing.

I will vote Empking when we are ready for the day to end.

My pick for a scum team is Empking, nhammen, Hidiaki and hoppster.

[Hoppster]

Vote: Hiraki

Unvote; Vote: Pine

What changed your opinion in such a short time frame?

Also:

Biggest scum reads out of those 7

[VT Claims]

: Hiraki, Emp, and Silver

IDK Reads: Nhamen (feels fishy)

Townish reads: Pine (bc of Calc) and THB

So why do you no longer have Pine as a townish read?

Btw., yes. I have concluded Calctown. I'm about to rape this shit.

I need a re-read.

Calicifer was Town?

Hmmzorz.

Why were you suprised by Calicifer flipping town when you thought he was town?

IceyC

I am not inclined to believe that he is town because of his role as neighborizer, but I think that there is little scummy coming from that slot. I'm not going to pretend that I have a great read of it, but I don't think it would be a good lynch for today.

Wuuuuut.

You think there's a possibility of scum neighbouriser in a normal?

Hoppster: He's scum because of this reaction to Antihero's claim... He doesn't believe the claim, but he's wishy-washy about this belief, and it reads like he knows it might be true.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what's incriminating about not being 100% certain on something.

I am inclinded to believe Wraith's claim, since I would expect there to be a protective role in the game.

See, you're scum because you believe Wraith's claim, but you know there's a possibility it might not be true that thre has to be a protective role in the game.

rom was the better way to go me thinks

This smells a lot like a preemptive "OMG, I can't believe the doc is dead" post, that is, scummy.

Explanation of my twilight post:

Silver said, after the hammer, but before the reveal that I should have been lynched... it strikes me as scummy that Silver distances himself from the lynch before knowing the alignment of the character and simultaneously plants a seed for the next day.

At that point, how could he know I would be a better lynch?

Underlined bold is a scumslip from Romanus.

VOTE: Zdenek


Could somebody link me to a good example of an Empking game illustrating his contrasting town meta?

[C-Worl]

My sudden read switch came upon reading Empking and Pine's metas.

[Wraith]

Okay, guys, thinking about this, I think we can narrow down the scumteam pretty easily using what we know with the remaining playerlist:

8. TwoHeadedBoy (InflatablePie+Fugitive) - THB is CONFIRMED TOWN based on the dead cop's results
12. Wraith - I am confirmed town because I'm me
13. IceyCupcake (GreyICE+Katsuki) - Icey is practically confirmed town because Neighborizer is a terribad fakeclaim
17. Pine - Pine is probably town based on his play and that scum have attempted to frame him already

Okay, those are the people who we have 100% or close-to 100% townreads on.

15. C-worl - I and the majority of people here have a strong belief that C-Worl is VI. However, his steadfast refusal to consider the more obvious scum suspects in favor of players like Pine or Hiraki are beginning to shake my read on him.
19. silverbullet999 - I have a townread on silverbullet as do many others

Those are the people who we are at least 50% sure of alignment. Leaving:

3. Empking
6. Hoppster/ConfidAnon
9. Hiraki
14. nhammen
16. Zdenek/Romanus

Out of these 5, probably 4 are scum. My personal observations:

Empking[/b]

EmpKing has been generally unhelpful throughout the game. IN a 50-page game he has merely 3 pages worth of posts. He has done almost no scumhunting and the vast majority of his votes have been on easy targets like C-Worl and (especially) Pine, as well as scummy townies like diddin and THB (before they were confirmed). Lately he has been attacking Hiraki instead of Zdenek/Romanus. I'll remind the town that during D3 he was in full support of a Romanus lynch (while not stating real reasons for supporting it). It smells to me that a scumbag is trying a last-ditch attempt to save his buddy. This has happened twice already with the EPM and Antihero mislynches.

Read:

SCUM

Zdenek/Romanus

[winger] (the original player in the slot) was very, very lurky until he dropped. Romanus came in and did some hardcore buddying on Pine, managing to win a townread from him that did not waver until today. He was a major force behind the Jerbs mislynch and on multiple occasions attempted to steer the town into mislynching obvtownies like myself and Parama. During D3 he lurked hardcore, and during D4 he disappeared since tons and tons of heat was piled upon him after the quick EPM mislynch saved his ass. Romanus should have been lynched D3 and his scumbuddies have managed to prevent it for far too long. As scummy as Empking is, I really, really want Zdenek/Romanus dead TODAY.

Read:

SCUM

Vote: Romanus

nhammen

I have very limited scum meta with nhammen from a previous large normal. However, his playstyle here has been very, very similar to that - hardcore lurking and then popping in from time to time to make somewhat town-ish WoTs and observations. If he hadn't been killed by the town vig I think the town would have lost that Large Normal. Now that we have a lot of info on confirmed town, several of his primary targets - Pine, Calcifer, Antihero, and THB - are confirmed or near-confirmed town, so it may shed some light on scummy motivations for mislynching. He voted EPM for poor reasons and then dropped off the map for D4, only returning to give out a VT claim. While I'm not as sure about nhammen as I am about Empking and Zdenek/Romanus, I'm pretty sure nhammen is scum.

Read: Probably Scum

Hiraki and Hoppster/ConfidAnon

This is where my reads get tricky. Both of these players are deserving of a scumread, but they also have some evidence in their favor. I'll start with Hiraki. Fun fact: I've had scumreads on Hiraki in EVERY game I've played with him, and it's getting to the point where I myself and seeing it as a "boy who cried wolf" level of ridiculousness. Hiraki replaced in D1 and posted massive WoTs and contributions, but disappeared during D2 and D3 and started lurking pretty hard. During D4 he reappeared to a point and joined the massclaim. After that he was very on board with the ANtihero wagon (as were many) but also inexplicably targeted the rather obvtown Pine. But at the moment, the most damning evidence against him is that he is attacking the CONFIRMED TOWN TwoHeadedBoy and the obvtown Pine over the OBVSCUM Zdenek/Romanus and Empking. On the other hand, he gets some "easy target for a mislynch" points because Empking and Zdenek/Romanus are both pushing for his lynch over theirs.

Read: Possibly Scum

For Hoppster/ConfidAnon, my read is honestly more tenuous than Hiraki. COnfidAnon did very little of note and had very poor reads and cases, voting D1 for obvtownies such as AGar for some of the stupidest reasons. Then he lurked and ultimately replaced out. Hoppster replaced in D4 and has done even less. SO basically, my case on them revolves around their lurking, and a bit of gut read. Nhammen randomvoted CA D1, and I have seen scumbuddies vote each other in RVS rather often, but this "evidence" is tenuous at best.

Read: Leaning Scum

If I had to bet, I'd say the scumteam was:

Zdenek/Romanus
Empking
Nhammen
Hiraki

Lynch in that order. Good day.

[Empking]

It smells to me that a scumbag is trying a last-ditch attempt to save his buddy

Who is the scumbag and who is the buddy?

[Wraith]

It smells to me that a scumbag is trying a last-ditch attempt to save his buddy

Who is the scumbag and who is the buddy?

It works whatever slot you put your's and Zdenek's names in. I make a big WoT about how you and your buddies are scum and

that's

all you have to say about it?

[Empking]

It smells to me that a scumbag is trying a last-ditch attempt to save his buddy

Who is the scumbag and who is the buddy?

It works whatever slot you put your's and Zdenek's names in. I make a big WoT about how you and your buddies are scum and

that's

all you have to say about it?

How was Zdenek making a last ditch attempt to save me? And how did I attempt to save Zdenek (surely the best way would be to self-vote?)?

In all honesty I think your reads are in the better half (not as good as mine but still reasonable.)

[Wraith]

I could have sworn one of you was voting Hiraki right now

[Empking]

I could have sworn one of you was voting Hiraki right now

So? Seriously so?

[C-Worl]

My sudden read switch came upon reading Empking and Pine's metas.

I meant ISO, not meta.

[Pine]

I read that on my phone without a chance to reply, C-Worl, and wondered what you meant. This is only the second game I ever signed up for, and I've only got one completely finished (as of this morning,) so meta didn't make sense.

[C-Worl]

Not really sure why I said Meta instead of ISO. Far as meta goes you seem similar in most of our games but I have no idea what that means until they end. But yeah my flip came from your isos

[nhammen]

@Pine 1541: I can see c-worl as scum, and your argument does support that. But I am uncertain, and there are multiple scummier players. He is on my list of 5 that I got from PoE, and his behavior has put him at #3 (behind Emp and Rom/zden and ahead of Hiraki and Hopp/Confid). Actually, now that I think about it, if my PoE is correct, and if we were to lynch straight down the list of everyone that remains, then we would win. Of course, those are two pretty big ifs.

WHY ARE WE ALL FORGETTING ROM GAD DAMN IT!

what's the difference between lynching one now and later?

Overall from my skim... I can see him being either, If his quote is true (I didn't check) then we should most def lynch rom first.

Moral of the story: Lynch Rom

Well, to me, Rom was scummy, but Emp is worse. I'd prefer we lynch in this order, just in case I am wrong about the people lower on the list. (I am more likely to be wrong about people lower on my list than people higher on it). In other words: I disagree with you about Rom/Zden being scummier than Emp.

@silver 1571: OK, I understand what claim you are talking about. And Empking is correct when he said that the VCA convinced me that Empking is scummier than Romanus. Is this what you were asking for? If not, I can provide an explanation for why:

While I do feel that both Emp and Rom are scummy, I felt that the VCA incriminated Emp enough to push him above Rom (and I still believe that). The VCA had cases against both Emp and Rom, and I agreed with the case against Emp. The VCA case against Rom seems to be what THB called "safe votes" (that is the only mention of Rom other than saying that he is scummy in that post), which I don't think is a valid tell, based on the large amount of townreads that also had these "safe votes". For example: "Safe vote awards go to Pine, IceyCupcake, Silverbullet, and Romanus." The first three are townreads. The last one is very likely to be scum. Thus, this tell is working about as well as random, AFTER assuming that Romanus is scum. Thus, the VCA did not affect my veiw of Rom, and so my feelings on Rom were still that he was very likely scum. But I agreed with the part about Empking enough to cause him to jump to being almost definitely scum and become the new #1 scumread. Does this clear everything up?

@Zdenek 1581: I agree with you about Hiraki, Emp, and Hopp being on the suspect list. However, silver showed himself to be obvtown on D1, and my read on that hasn't changed. Ice is almost certainly not scum for the simple reason that I highly doubt a scum neighborizer would have chosen Calcifer N1. It would be too risky.

Also, I'm inventing contradictions? Both of the things that I spotted as contradictions were actual contradictions. Unfortunately, in neither case was it a scum motivated contradiction, apparently, and so I was barking up the wrong tree. Anti's contradiction was in fact his

poor

horrible

absolutely terri-fail-craptastic attempt at a breadcrumb, apparently.

[silverbullet999]

-Nhammen

The VCA had cases against both Emp and Rom,

Didn't VCA paint me as scum in all three or so scenarios?

Is this what you were asking for?

yes thank you.

THB

Look back one day.

Link me...

[nhammen]

-Nhammen

The VCA had cases against both Emp and Rom,

Didn't VCA paint me as scum in all three or so scenarios?

I looked back and it seems there were three mentions of you. One was "safe votes", which you have heard my opinion on. The others were the Friend wagon and the EPM wagon, both of which he determined would be one of c-worl, me, and you. In those cases, I find it more likely to be c-worl. I guess this is the source of the comment that Icey made: "every single VCA Mastin did suggested one of Silver or C-Worl was DEFINITELY scum."

[silverbullet999]

Ok so it seems VCA for some reason affected your Emp read heavily... and not so much anyone else (least not drastically)

Let me take a lookie... ok the only VCA scenario that mentions emp is here
[quote]*controversial method of VCA removed for your sanity*
--This method left evilpacman18, Romanus/[winger], Pine, Empking, silverbullet999, and C-worl all as possible suspects.[quote]

and also emp is mentioned in the pine wagon where it was either him and evil that "had" to be scum...

How did it so Heavily change your view on emp?

[IceyCupcake]

So EmpKing isn't even BOTHERING to pretend he's town anymore, he's trying to WIFOM us about his buddies while he sinks under the ocean.

The lack of a lynch is highly discouraging, especially since everyone I have pegged as a buddy is jumping on the wagon. Meaning this is one of the rare times I think I've seen the entire scumteam try and bus and be sitting there like "why isn't it working?"

[Empking]

So EmpKing isn't even BOTHERING to pretend he's town anymore, he's trying to WIFOM us about his buddies while he sinks under the ocean.

How so?

[Hoppster]

rom was the better way to go me thinks

This smells a lot like a preemptive "OMG, I can't believe the doc is dead" post, that is, scummy.

Explanation of my twilight post:

Silver said, after the hammer, but before the reveal that I should have been lynched... it strikes me as scummy that Silver distances himself from the lynch before knowing the alignment of the character and simultaneously plants a seed for the next day.

At that point, how could he know I would be a better lynch?

Underlined bold is a scumslip from Romanus.

VOTE: Zdenek

Nobody agrees with me that this is a scumslip?!


Icey, link me to an Empking strong town game please. I know that's not the sole reason for the wagon, but I think it'd help.