Open 295 -- Island Paradise Mafia -- Game Over

[Sundy]

EBWOP: also Fang's capitalized big font NO LURKING post was a bit much tbqh

[havingfitz]

on Fitz, for reasons that seemed more plausible

Please elaborate. Which reasons for suspecting me do you consider plausible? Do you support the reasons you find plausible?

[cjdrum]

Just checking in before I have to leave...

@ZF: You outlined some cases for a Jora lynch, then went really hard against havingfitz... And then suddenly voted for Jora. Why didn't you vote earlier... And what changed your mind?
You seemed to come in here and just tell everybody that everybody else was scummy for this, this, this. Why did you choose Jora over everybody else?

Also, everyone else, I'd put a vote on ZF, but I wouldn't be able to unvote. If, say, three people chime in and say I should, I'm completely prepared to throw a vote down.

[yabbaguy]

I'm also going to call your post on TT the pot vs kettle.

No. Not all my posts are content filled, but the ones that are content-filled actually ask questions that I follow up on and gather reads from. When I asked you and havingfitz for the bullet points, neither sounded really accurate, but they did sound genuine, so I concluded Town/Town carnage. Among other things.

ToastyToast gets the suspicion since he asks a bunch of questions... but look at how many of them go nowhere. He asks a lot of things, forms a few opinions that are full of "it seems" and "it could possibly be" (or similar), but never seem to have any basis for them. What I quoted (here it comes again):

I can see bv310 scum, but am unsure about Sundy. His vote on me was odd but I saw it as a legitimate mistake of fact. On the other hand, it was still a terrible reason to vote me.

is just pretty much the epitome of his hunk of uselessness.

You want me to explain my lack of scumhunting? Its the fact that this game has a curse of inactivity, and so I have no good information to bite on.

Presume that's accepted as the pro-Town strategy. Then everyone comes to terms that there is nothing they can do for a doomed game, and they all agree to have rocks fall and everyone die.

So this is poor.

Looking back on his ISO, he has changed his stance in almost every argument
1. It went from "jora wagon is bad" to "jora is scummy" with no vote
2. After jora wagon faded it went to "havingfitz" had the worst hop on the wagon, even though he probably gave the most reasons for his vote.
3. Then he votes startransmission when everyone begins the lurker-hunt. startransmission had the more people suspecting him in comparison to the other lurkers
Now farside brings me up and I get a yabba FOS

1. This? I don't vote based on ONE scummy post.
2. No. You'll notice it's mostly a catch-up readthrough where he actually ended up claiming his top two suspects were the ones that would then be in a massive bussing ordeal on D1 (DRK on Jora: "NO. NO. NO."). I do think fitz is Town now- but at the time, I thought it was contradictory. Hence the probing vote.
3. WAGONS ARE THE WHOLE DAMN POINT OF THE GAME. A single vote, and granted farside's solitary vote on me for inactivity did wake me up, aren't nearly as effective as a multitude going after the same player. You have to hold people accountable.
4. I'm confused.

I've read through the thread a couple times and I find yabbaguy the most suspicious mostly because of his combination of posting very little yet always being very hostile when he does post.

VOTE: yabbaguy

Vote sticks. Very little and hostile aren't scumtells, and you're the most rubbish contributor for someone who should be oozing with brilliance after so many days to contemplate. So excuse me for being a hostile bastard, but why the fuck aren't you doing something more useful and instead calling me someone who posts so little?

For fuck's sake...

Also, everyone else, I'd put a vote on ZF, but I wouldn't be able to unvote. If, say, three people chime in and say I should, I'm completely prepared to throw a vote down.

First off, I don't agree with Zeroscum. Someone pointed out it's unusual how he led up to Jora, but I don't see that after looking at his ISO.

But secondly, I don't get why you're waiting for the stamps of approval here. Don't want the Day to end too quickly? Sorry, it's ending on the 15th. :\

@Zero: That said, I also don't agree with Jora-scum. What do you reckon about the wagon that formed on him initially in addition to his selfvote? Obnoxious as he is, I think the selfvote is a Towntell and we really need to look into ToastyToast before we can settle that matter.

Jak or Toast are my preferences. Notwithstanding the condition I set above, Jak's significantly more certain. However, Toast is blathering more and more about "sorry I'm not around [useless filler topped with a cutely labelled player-by-player]".

My plan's set.

[farside22]

I'll just keep chanting Lynch Jak till something changes my mind.
Yabba: I will take your views, look at TT one more time and think on it. What did you think about his scum list?

[TheJakalope]

I apologize for my lurking, I am in a few games, and I am having trouble finding interest in this one. I know this is no excuse, but yabbaguy's posts are what mainly caught my eye.

I know this is never a very good plan, but I'm prepared to jump to any wagon before the deadline, because no lynching on day one is stupid.

[havingfitz]

Agreed - "no lynching on day one is stupid." Hopping on a wagon for the sake of hopping on a wagon...just to avoid a no lynch is even more stupid. Odds favor the day one lynch being a mislynch and those odds get even higher when 'town' jumps on wagons without any good reason. Star didn't exactly leave covered with a town aura and Jak has not helped redeem that player slot IMO.

VOTE: TheJakalope

[Jora]

ZeroFang, you are hypocrite. In what follows I bolded text in quotes to point why.

Actually,

you're putting a great focus on voting for lurkers

rather than people who have acted scummy. Which is suspicious in and of itself. If it were not for your other posts, I might be more suspicious of you. For now I'll stick with my belief that you're just an ancy towny. IGMEOY.

Call it pot-kettle-black all you want, but

I'm still of the belief that scum are in the mega-lurkers

. 'Cause there is no pot-kettle-black, that's the tu quoque fallacy.

Trouble is, I don't know which lurker

'cause they haven't done anything actively scummy. ._.

If you'd like to pursue that belief, it's quite easy.

Attack the lurkers

until they either spend so much time defending themselves that they expose themselves as scum, or they are forced to become a productive, active player in this game.

I <3 you yabba

. I'd love more activity from you. Pwease?

So, may be we should just lynch the animorph/bv slot as a compromise, and voilà! day is over, scum lynched. I saw star at least maked some attempts, but animorph/bv slot is a totally abusive null.

This post is exceptionally scummy. Suggesting the notion of lynching a slot just to end the day. What's more, Yabba was the only one that caught it, and he didn't pursue it like it needed to be pursued. This, coupled with the fact that Jora's been pushing lurker lynches instead of scumhunting raises my suspicion of him.

So he said we needed to attack the lurkers, but he blamed me for doing it. Also, he heavily trying to misrepresent me, like I was not scumhunting ever, like I had a strong scumm-read on somebody who was active but voted lurkers instead and so on.

BUTTERED TOAST
DRK: I don't think her arguments are based on emotion; love her 309. The inactive to active means nothing, and she is scum-hunting better than most in this game

DRK's 309 = IMO useless. It's just list of nicks with their

first two pages

posts numbers and unsubstantiated statements like someone is scummy and someone is not. Also, DRK's "scumhunting" is not impress me. I still remember his 14 items argument against me, and now it seems he just returned back on "Sundy's 1st post = scum" theory.

Jora (leaning scum): I didn't like his early game, and some of his more recent posts, like recommending cjdrum unvote, disagree with most of his reads. On the other hand, he has calmed down since the wagon and could simply be having the same problem as me in regards to getting into the game

First you are wrong: I supposed to be a leading town. But I must agree with your additional part on me. I really was feeling kind of lost in recent days - this game seemed boring. So, farside22's argument on TT's activity IMO is not exactly a scummtell.

[Jora]

I want to point out, in my limited experience, I've only seen non-cops ask this. Cops ask by PM. Scum would ask in the scum QT, or if it's the godfather himself, by PM. I hesitate to say Jora is not a threat, persay.

Your game experience is limited to this site, right? Yor havingfitz/me arguments have a slightly newb-catch up flavour.
However, I feel you are not so naive and actually not at all sincere with your reads. You are trying to look like inexperienced and make some blatant enhancements on your lack of experience.
* Zero looks on farside22 with admiring envy*: "Oh, farside22, you're so experienced! And you are town, I know it. So, don't look at me, me is just inexpirienced innocent little puppy, me is so nice to you, me simply can't do anything bad."

I'm sure one of ZeroFang/TheJakalope is scum. Not sure who exactly. Competing bandwagons FTW!

[DeathRowKitty]

A couple things I'm going to respond to now with something more useful to come later today (for srs, this time).

ZF mentioned somewhere that I got more active after he started attacking me. He actually started attacking me right

after

I got more active. ZF seems to be having a really hard time with reading this game.

BUTTERED TOAST
DRK: I don't think her arguments are based on emotion; love her 309. The inactive to active means nothing, and she is scum-hunting better than most in this game

DRK's 309 = IMO useless. It's just list of nicks with their

first two pages

posts numbers and unsubstantiated statements like someone is scummy and someone is not. Also, DRK's "scumhunting" is not impress me. I still remember his 14 items argument against me, and now it seems he just returned back on "Sundy's 1st post = scum" theory.

That was my way of trying to get myself back into the game more than anything else. It's something I picked up from playing a lot of chat mafia: when I'm feeling lost in a game, I look back and try to make something out of the start of the game. It's a lot more common for me to be right in my early reads and WIFOM myself out of them than for me to be wrong in my early reads and correctly adjust them. Scum just tend to be more obvious at certain times than others. The start of the game is a big one, since scum don't have anything good to latch onto and are forced to actually try to mimic town play, instead of just playing naturally. Either way, I'm actually going to go back and analyze the first few pages properly later today. I plan on doing it without looking at my prior notes of which posts were town and scum to avoid any sort of confirmation bias.

[ToastyToast]

Unvote:Vote: Jackalope

Already explained that I have a scum-read on him. Definitely okay with this lynch.

[DeathRowKitty]

Okay, so the common theme among ZF's catch-up posts is they're all very meta-y. He's been pointing out a whole bunch of things and giving explanations as to why they would be scummy in a mafia game, without actually explaining what would make them scummy in this game. Basically, he's scum tell-hunting, not scumhunting, and I don't like it. Also of note that he says this:

Now, here is a possible game-changing question. Is his attitude of "I hope you die, the game is constipated and it's all your fault" more likely to be perpetrated by scum or town?

without any seeming intention to answer this "game-changing question." Sure, he says he was looking for our input, but it really seems like he has no interest in it beyond bringing it up. Also,

Don't fight with emotions (*ahem*, DRK). It doesn't work, and in my personal opinion, it severely discredits you as a reliable source of reason.

^ that's scummy, given that I recently called his slot scum. He's basically saying "btw guys, you can ignore everything DRK says because he has emotions and can't be a source of reason." Basically, looking to discredit me to take the easy way out.

Now onto the (possibly stupid) analysis of the first couple of pages I said I would do.

[DeathRowKitty]

Actually, leaving that for tomorrow. Not thinking clearly enough right now. If nothing changes before then though, I might be changing my thoughts on the first few pages entirely...

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.14

L-1 TheJakalope - 5 - }|{opa, yabbaguy, farside22, havingfitz, ToastyToast
Sundy - 2 - DeathRowKitty, cjdrum
yabbaguy - 1 - TheJakalope
ZeroFang - 1 - Sundy
}|{opa - 1 - ZeroFang

Not Voting: ...

With ten alive, it takes six to lynch.

Deadline: April 15.

V/LA: cjdrum, April 13-18

Deadline's about 36 hours from now.

[Jora]

As I've previously mentioned I dreaming about TheJakalope vs ZeroFang competing wagons.

So, UNVOTE:
VOTE: ZeroFang

[ZeroFang]

@ZF: You outlined some cases for a Jora lynch, then went really hard against havingfitz... And then suddenly voted for Jora. Why didn't you vote earlier... And what changed your mind?
You seemed to come in here and just tell everybody that everybody else was scummy for this, this, this. Why did you choose Jora over everybody else?

Jora has shown a consistent pattern of wanting to vote lurkers rather than scummy players, discussing himself and the setup rather than scumhunting, and making exceptionally vague cases on a numerous amount of players. This post is a particularly painful read. All this, while making completely illiterate posts of garbage.

I'm still assessing HF.

Also, everyone else, I'd put a vote on ZF, but I wouldn't be able to unvote. If, say, three people chime in and say I should, I'm completely prepared to throw a vote down.

So you'll only vote if it's what the majority wants? Way to be a sheep.

EBWOP: also Fang's capitalized big font NO LURKING post was a bit much tbqh

I find this very interesting since you're one of the very lurkers I'm talking about.

[ZeroFang]

In addition to that, he has generally weak reasoning for his votes, and

finishes with a "don't ask me for more reasons",

Which reasons of mine do you feel are "generally weak?" Do you agree with farsides suspicions towards me? If so...can you remind me which of her reasons you agree with?

I said generally weak specifically because I'd have to list several points I feel are weak, and that takes time. But I'll give you a couple examples for your benefit.

Your 109 (ISO #2). You reference "aformentioned reasons", of which there are two.

}|{opa's statement that DRK is a GF and subsequent vote on someone with 2 posts who, other than the fact they have only made two posts, has done nothing suspicious.
-}|{opa pushing DRK as a good cop lynch. Why keep mentioning a cop?

1) I searched for what you were referencing, and I found Opa's post about how three people had made only two posts, and one of them (startransmission) was not contributing harder than the others. This was a valid, albiet (IMO) weak reason for Jora to vote.

2) Referencing that same post by Jora, you say he's pushing for a DRK lynch, except he voted star at the end.

So your "case" on him was very weak.

Your 145 (ISO #10). You reference your two weak reasons in post 109.

In the second section of this post you claim to have explained your reason for voting Opa. However, you simply refer back to the posts farside called you out on in the first place, that is, the one listing a couple weak reasons (and nothing else) and the one referencing those weak reasons. You beg us to look back at your posts when there's nothing to look back on. There's no foundation for your case.

To answer your second question, yes I did agree with her suspicions, but for different reasons. Reading it over again and again, I've changed my mind. I believe that exchange with farside was town v town (with confusion on your end).

[ZeroFang]

In response to Jora's post and the one after it:

These are two different schools of thought that appear very similar. On the one hand, we have what I hope yabba means, which is that the lurkers are among the scum, and we should flush them out and/or pay extra attention to them, since they're intentionally staying under the radar. What you're doing is voting lurkers for the simple fact that they're not posting much. The difference is that with the first one, you're taking measures to make sure the scum don't get away with lurking rather than saying lurkers = scum.

[Jora]

Holy Mother of Misrepresentation God! I'm not saying lurkers = scum. I'm saying you = scum. Also, nice try at accusing me of Borat's April joke.

[Jora]

The only thing which makes me doubt is this:

Usually when a player role gets to it's 3rd replacement I feel that slot is town regardless of how bad a player they are. I figure people who play mafia don't get many opportunities to be scum so when they do get the chance...they don't like to waste it. ani and bv have both been posting regularly since this game began so I take their absence to be lack of interest in this game/their position.

But I have some examples when scum was gone for replacement because of fear of loosing their reputation, because of disappointment of letting down his partner, or because of disappointment with his partner (I don't know what exactly they were thinking, all this is just my guessing). And personally I have had a hard times replacing into scum slot. When I going to replace I usually hope for pro-town role, because it's kind of unpleasant for me to start catching up and striking with a scum-team.

[Sundy]

on Fitz, for reasons that seemed more plausible

Please elaborate. Which reasons for suspecting me do you consider plausible? Do you support the reasons you find plausible?

His read on you was better than that on Jora. He said Jora was going after lurkers to the exclusion of scum-hunting (meh?) and that Jora was scummy for suggesting a bv lynch (plausible discussion and bv was a better lynch at the time than the other lurker-- which is still true incidentally even if fang is no longer lurking). 

Of you, he said your vote on Farside was weak (true) and that you stuck to it to the point of advocating her lynch (true) In fact farside's first vote emerged because like Fang you also abandoned a more grounded scum read (on DRK) to go after jora instead. Except fang also provided reasons for thinking jora was town so his eventual vote made even less sense. 

@fang, your #391 suggests a town read on fitz, is this accurate? Why the town read given your other observations and your analysis on his vote on jora?

[havingfitz]

ZF...nice ad hom. You can kiss my confused end.

Why do I take issue with your post:

If you have come to the belief that farside and I were town vs town why would you devote time to the post above? To leave open the possibility of coming back to me later? You’ve dedicated more time and effort on someone you believe is town (and yet is you #2 suspect iirc) than you have on the person you are voting.

I said generally weak specifically because I'd have to list several points I feel are weak, and that takes time. But I'll give you a couple examples for your benefit.

Your 109 (ISO #2). You reference "aformentioned reasons", of which there are two.

}|{opa's statement that DRK is a GF and subsequent vote on someone with 2 posts who, other than the fact they have only made two posts, has done nothing suspicious.
-}|{opa pushing DRK as a good cop lynch. Why keep mentioning a cop?

Yeah…. I only gave two reasons. What is your point? My “aforementioned reasons” was referring to the two reasons I provided. You’re just practicing your typing skills…aren’t you? And if you have several points….please take that time to list them. Considering I only gave two reasons I can’t wait to see which “several points” you are able to list.

1) I searched for what you were referencing, and I found Opa's post about how three people had made only two posts, and one of them (startransmission) was not contributing harder than the others. This was a valid, albiet (IMO) weak reason for Jora to vote.

At best…it was a weak reason for }|{opa to disregard DRK for Star…at worst, it was bypassing someone considered scummy for a lurker….deemed to be a potential sk after only making two post.

2) Referencing that same post by Jora, you say he's pushing for a DRK lynch, except he voted star at the end.

So your "case" on him was very weak.

Why is my case weak? Why is my case weak? Why is my case weak? Why is my case weak? Please elaborate. Without stating why it was weak the accusation (of weakness) is meaningless. And does a weak case not have merit? Especially early on Day one when there isn’t a lot to work with? Can you provide some examples of strong cases on anyone and if they exist…why isn’t that person gone yet?

Your 145 (ISO #10). You reference your two weak reasons in post 109.

Yeah. So? And once again….why weak? Is weak not valid? Examples of strong reasons (within time proximity of when I was voting }|{opa)?

In the second section of this post you claim to have explained your reason for voting Opa. However, you simply refer back to the posts farside called you out on in the first place, that is, the one listing a couple weak reasons (and nothing else) and the one referencing those weak reasons. You beg us to look back at your posts when there's nothing to look back on. There's no foundation for your case.

Were you and farside separated at birth? What does this quote do? I provided my reasons for voting }|{opa when I voted him. Referencing back to that post is bad how?

To answer your second question, yes I did agree with her suspicions, but for different reasons. Reading it over again and again, I've changed my mind. I believe that exchange with farside was town v town (with confusion on your end).

Which suspicions did you agree with? The hypocrisy? The opportunism? The relative strength of my suspicions? Which ones? And for the ones you do agree with…what are the different reasons?

If you are going to take the time to slander someone you think is town, then I am going to take the time to point out where you are in error and ask for clarification where you are being vague.

[havingfitz]

Sundy...you have asked more than a few people for their opinion of me. If I'm not mistaken you have mentioned me more than anyone else in your ISO. What's up. Are you still FoSing me? What have your numerous queries to others regarding me told you?

[farside22]

As I've previously mentioned I dreaming about TheJakalope vs ZeroFang competing wagons.

So, UNVOTE:
VOTE: ZeroFang

You realize before you did this vote there was only 36 hour left in the game.
If you going to switch votes at least push for a reason better then competing wagons.

[Sundy]

Sundy...you have asked more than a few people for their opinion of me. If I'm not mistaken you have mentioned me more than anyone else in your ISO. What's up. Are you still FoSing me? What have your numerous queries to others regarding me told you?

Hmm I didn't realize how many times I'd brought you up in conversation with other players until I re-read my ISO. However all these questions were about things the players said, not about you specifically. These questions haven't told me anything about your alignment as of yet, but I expect they will shortly.

Start: You were his only suspect in the game here, but he gave no reasons for thinking such. He later said he was slightly more suspicious of Jora, but at the same time he said he had no idea what was going on. If Jakalope ends up flipping scum, this will make you look good, because I doubt scum's going to give their only scum read on thir buddy.

Jora: Just thought it was odd that he said you were breaking townie rules while still having a town read on you. Not much to learn here.

CJ had a wispy interpretation of your fight with Farside, at one point he says he's "waiting for scummy" which implies he's over the bad read on both of you and wants a stronger scum-slip before placing his vote, but later says that at least one of you is probably scum. This isn't very well thought out, but the overall impression I get from the posts is that he's not sure who's scummy and his confusion seems genuine.

Fang: Now this would be a very interesting scenario if he flipped scum. He has a town read even though his posts have negative or neutral reads on you, yet he still comes up with a town read. Why is this? I say this puts you in a bad light if Fang is bad.

As for what I think of you overall, Fitz: You're in the "very active" category list of posters, good job on that, but there's been more suspicious things about your play than anyone else on that list. Your introduction to the game was awkward, you voted Jora when your arguments against DRK were more persuasive and numerous, you promoted Jora's lynch when he was at L-1 (except this no longer seems very scummy, because it would have been insightful if someone hammered), and your suspicion of Farside was based quite literally only on her suspicion of you. And to boot: You're posting pages about how much you dislike ZeroFang's arguments (understandable since they're about you), but still going for Jakalope instead. Why is that? Do you think Fang is scum or misguided town?

And I think Fang is a better lynch than Jakalope. Jakalope's posts have been ridiculous, but he seems bored and disengaged, and there's basically no scum reads from him or his predecessors. Fang, on the other hand, has been both scummy, and he also has an extensive interpretation of the game that will make his flip more instructive imo.