Newbie 1094: Let us simulate. Game over. Scum win.

[Cobblerfone]

Random vote for an SE to get the ball rollin'. (To explain: They're not in the teaching role of the IC, while they've had more games than any newbie, thus one of them gets my "random" vote.)

I will change if I think someone elso is more suspicious.

Vote: jmurph3

[Cobblerfone]

I don't know if it's changed, but from what I understand, when we're in a "random voting stage" it's considered impolite to vote for someone that already has a vote on them. Is that right, DDD?
Since I believe that's the case I'm going to:

unvote

And

vote:Quilford

Nothing personal.

[Cobblerfone]

@izak Well, that depends if twilight takes up the rest of the day we

would

have had. And D1 is where we all get information for the next day.

Hmm... This is quite interesting. Not interesting enough for a vote quite yet, but interesting. Since a goon would want as little info for the town to go on as possible. But it

could

be a newbie mistake. One I probably would have made if I hadn't done some reading on here.

FOS: izakthegoomba

[Cobblerfone]

@jmurph3: Thanks.

@izak: A quick D1 gives us no information of who to vote for the next day. All the voting and all of the reactions to the voting gives us the info we need for the next day.

Am I learnin' it good, guys?

[Cobblerfone]

To answer the questions: I'm in EST (With DS, so I guess EDST?) And after today I should be able to post anytime that I'm not asleep or at church.

Well, izak hasn't reacted much despite all the pressure. Either he's playing it cool as scum, or doesn't feel to be in any danger because he's town and doesn't think he's suspicious or because he's scum and his partner has a vote on him. These three scenarios seem to be the most likely. Possibly the only ones. But, and this is just a gut feeling, I think that whether izakthegoomba is town or scum, he has a goon's vote on him already.

I'm going to reread everything. I'm going to reread everyone as both town and scum and see which one feels better.

[Cobblerfone]

@Spadille: I believe the rules said that the mafia couldn't talk during N-0.

Alright, so I didn't

quite

have enough patience for that exercise. But I did reread the thread, and I think either Quilford or Supreme Overlord is scum. (possibly both)

Quilford's first post was a bit contradictory:

FoS: jmurph and cobblerfone for not voting their FoS when their other votes were random.

"Quilford"]And VOTE: izakthegoomba for fluffing up the game and posting almost nothing relevant.

And yet you vote for izak. Care to explain?

Supreme Overlord on the other hand has had some chemistry with izak that makes them sound like a scum team to me:

VOTE: Supreme Overlord LYNCH ALL LURKERS RAWRRR

@jmurph3 I hardly think he's a lurker yet

And then Supreme Overlord jumps on the izak-wagon and starts interrogating; good cover for scum.

Spadille has also been suspicious to me. He explained why he hasn't voted for izak, but it still feels like an excuse to pull the "I was against izak" card if izak comes up scum. Plus his last post doesn't sound right to me, it's just... off somehow.

Well, I already have a vote on Quilford so I'll add the pressure to:

UNVOTE: Quilford

VOTE: Supreme Overlord

What does everyone else think?

[Cobblerfone]

Sorry then, the role PMs were the only part I didn't read.

Oh, and sorry, I meant post #46. (reading the posts upside-down can be really disorienting)

And since the mafia can talk to each other I guess it's not as weird sounding. Maybe.

[Cobblerfone]

Oh, and I don't expect anyone to change their vote to Quilford on my account, so I switched to Supreme Overlord to see how he'll react.

[Cobblerfone]

Man, I'm exhausted. And it turns out I won't be

as

free as I thought I would be. I'll be gone for half a day both tomorrow and the next day. I'll still be around here.

Really, my suspicion of Supreme Overlord is just a hunch that only aplies if izak is mafia. Quilford and Spadille are the ones that I think are scum if izak isn't. I also had a feeling about Trendall, but these feelings seem to be spread so thin now I don't think I'll share them anymore, lest I appear foolish.

@Quilford I had to make you say something. You've been so quiet. Your point is fair. Now I just wish the rest of the quiet people would say something.

I think interrogating players to determine their alignment is what we're supposed to do as town and thus your first point is invalid and in regards to the second I find the possibility of bussing on page two to be a highly aggresive and unlikely attitude for a new player to take. Also both of these points are predicated on izak-scum which is a large assumption for so early in the game, but perhaps you know that izak is scum and you're trying to get someone else to take the fall as his partner?

I wasn't criticizing that Spadille was interrogating izakthegoomba (Actually, since Overlord's quoted it in his post while I was typing this I see that it's Overlord that I accuse. I really have no idea why I said that. I'll chalk it up to nausea do to reading the posts upside down in the reply-preview). I was just explaining that if the mafia are attacking each other, then I'm counting Spadille's intergation as "bussing" even if he isn't voting, which I don't think he should, obviously and... Okay I see that I've found a round-about in my logic.
I'm still counting it for the purposes of my "gut feeling", though. Also, Spadille isn't new, he's played elsewhere and has said so himself that where he's from they play more aggressively. Also, my gut feeling is that izak has a mafia vote on him whether he's mafia or not. Meaning whether he's town is irrelevant for the purposes of my gut. Now, I'm not going to try to convince anyone to blindly follow my gut, (I'm sure it smells ) but I want to let everyone know where I'm coming from.

The only suspicion of mine that relies on izak being scum is Supreme Overlord. Which, I'll admit I'm feeling less suspicious of izak (though he is eerily calm) because I looked back at the time stamps for his first and second post, and it just seems so unscumlike to come back after an hour to give that pointless speculation.

But I'm still waiting for Overlord to respond, so my vote's still on him.

Since he's posted while I typed this, and I am really confused by my own posts even, I'm going to take a break and

UNVOTE: Supreme Overlord

I'm going to go read the thread over again.

[Cobblerfone]

Which, I'll admit I'm feeling less suspicious of izak (though he is eerily calm) because I looked back at the time stamps for his first and second post, and it just seems so unscumlike to come back after an hour to give that pointless speculation.

Woops-ee-daisy, make that his 2nd and 3rd posts.

[Cobblerfone]

Oh man, I just realized that it was Heliman that said he came from an aggressive forum.

Nevermind then.

[Cobblerfone]

Look at what he's done thus far: in this post he posts an FoS against izak just a few minutes after I do, which is strange in that he's following me in not voting when he really had no reason not to vote.

To be honest, you ninja'd me. I actually felt a connection with you because we had the same idea at the same time.

This post even contains a glib jibe about making sure that he's "learnin' it good". Most recently, he unvoted Supreme Overlord for no good reason. It seems as if he's very willing to drop his vote and change his argument at the slightest hint that someone might call him out on it.

I unvoted him because I just wanted him to post, he responded to me, barely. After that I figured my vote wouldn't get much more out of him, and I was surprised even at how dumb I've been, so I wanted to get back into a neutral state to collect my thoughts. I'm also naturally unconfrontational unless I absolutely know someone is wrong. And being aggressive messed me up in an off-site game where I was the Cop. I thought it would be different, but I guess I'm just not the type.

Additionally, this post is just really odd to me:

Oh, and I don't expect anyone to change their vote to Quilford on my account, so I switched to Supreme Overlord to see how he'll react.

All this is enough for me to UNVOTE: ,VOTE: Cobblerfone.

If you think it's odd, then I'm sure that's good enough for you. I was responding to Spadille here:

Also, if you unvote on Quilford, then Quilford doesn't have any votes anymore XD

Oi, it seems that anyone that attacks me automatically feels like scum. And it seems that offense isn't my strong point; I've gotten mixed-up so many times. I think I'll switch play styles here; I'm going to sit back and watch so I can become more objective and vote for whoever I think is the best lynch. I'll still post, but I'll be less on offense, more on observation, that seems to be my strong point. [see the timestamps on izak's 2nd and 3rd posts, whether they mean something or not.]

Your reads say that it's either Quilford or SO but it depends whether izak is scum or not?

Take note, you don't find him scummy because you have told us that it may be Quilford AND Supreme Overlord.

Those were just feelings, which I don't feel anymore (for SO at least). I'm used to much shorter days; I expected to be able to go off the data I had, with the rest of the day being bonus, but I see now that isn't the case.

@Cobblerfone
Why were you suspicious of Quilford again?

He was matched with my feeling of being on the izak-wagon and didn't really seem to be contributing at all. But, seeing as I'm now going into watcher mode, it might just be that he had the same idea, just earlier. (I like to cover all the possibilities. I guess I'll need to stop that, since it detracts from the focus that scum-hunting requires and looks scummy.)

Cobble, you're supposed to actually find a reason to scum hunt them other than hunches, just depending on shit like this only leads to WIFOM and is very scummy. Actually, if this is the case you shouldn't use anything like this again, this is a Newbie learning game, you can use what you learned from reading when ICs (who are not me BTW) aren't teaching you.

Thanks. I was going off of hunches because that seemed to work in the first (and only other) game I played. I was the Cop-equivalent, and I only had a couple posts to go off of, but by following my feelings I ended up picking a goon. But I guess hunches without facts are useless in the hands of such a wishy-washy person as myself.

Also, Cobblerfone's posts #1 and #2 may indicate we have the old "FoS: [scumbuddy], Vote: [town]" scumtell going on.

As inept at scum-hunting as I've been, I'd have to be

really

stupid to pull that. Also, jmurph3 did the same thing. Why didn't you call him out on it?

@Cobblerfone I'm not sure how to approach this one. He seems to be defending me to some extent suggesting that, from my position as a townie, he is also town. However, I can see how bad he looks to anyone who thinks I am/could he scum. I'm reserving judgement here for now.

You appear 50/50 scum/town to me. Your posts either make you seem to be inept-town (look who's talkin'!) or sly/inept-scum (hard to tell, they could be similiar). But the relationship between your 2nd and 3rd posts makes me think the former. But I think I'll condone your lynch, because then we'll know which you are.

[Cobblerfone]

Addendum: And I'll be able to tell who's connected with you.

[Cobblerfone]

I meant I'll bring things up if they aren't noticed.

[Cobblerfone]

I need to feel like I'm being objective, or I won't be able to feel strongly about something one way or the other. Have you ever read a game and feel like you know exactly who's scum and who's not? Well, I need to be like that, at least until I get better at conflict.

[Cobblerfone]

@izak: My point, which I put in an earlier post, is that I don't think a scum would come back nearly an hour and say that. I think they would either wait for other people to post or put it all in one post if they were planning on slinging suspicion with as small a case as that.

@DDD:Eh, I'm not really planning on lurking, so much as planning on not attacking. Every game needs their support townies. And no, only some of the suspicions relied on izak being scum, while others relied on him not being scum, though now with so many posts my suspicions are now interchangable or gone.

So that everyone knows where I stand now:

Suspects:
Quilford, izakthegoomba
jmurph3, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Trendall
Supreme Overlord

I think Innocent:
Heliman, Spadille
Supreme Overlord, izakthegoomba

It's listed from top-to-bottom in order of feeling. Those that appear twice are the ones I'm not sure of and are more situational, thus the appearance of contradiction in the order.

[Cobblerfone]

I'm going to ask everyone right here if they think izak's 2nd and 3rd post decrease his scumminess.

If at least three people disagree (the number guranteed to not consist of only mafia and hopefully everyone that answers is experienced) then I'll remove izak from my innocent's list, and will probably vote for him when deadline approaches. Heck, I might vote for him anyway just because I think he'll give us the most info. However, if three people agree with me, then I'll remove him from my suspects list and will vote Quilford.

[Cobblerfone]

I really just want to know what the more experienced players think. That'd be you, DDD, Trendall, Heliman, and maybe Spadille? If at least three of you think it's not a good case, I'll take that into account because that's the only reason I think he's town. If three of you think it's a good case, then I'll take that into account and trust my judgement more.

[Cobblerfone]

I'm a bit weary of Spadille, he's reminding me of the mafia from the first game I hosted. He's leading the arguments almost unopposed, and seems just a bit overeager, and a bit too competent for a newbie. I was fine when a whole bunch of people were all in the battle, but it doesn't seem to be a good sign when there's only one or two. Unless, Spadille, how did you say you used to play? Half of the other newbs have given some backstory, but I'm curious where you learned to be so aggresive. All well, we all have plenty time for everyone to get under the spotlight.

This is the biggest contradiction I've seen yet. He says his vote will change depending on what the more experienced players think (which is bad enough already) despite listing the IC and the two SE's in his 'Suspects' list.

Everyone's a suspect by default. (And I'm not so sure of Heliman and Spadille anymore either.) That's why I asked for three people and specified that it was so there was at least one town. Only two people can be scum, thus the IC and SEs can't

all

be guilty. Now who's not comprehending posts?

[Cobblerfone]

Just wanted to address some of izak's points:

By all means attack them. In fact, it makes a pleasant change. It just seems odd that you do it now, when things are getting hard on you

Why shouldn't he attack when he's under pressure? If a player knows they're town, they have a duty to not get themselves lynched. Especially if they think their attacker is mafia.

So yeah, you think he's scum? Though some of his points have indeed lacked evidence, I would have thought the logic behind them was pretty obvious.

If the logic is obvious, just think how much more obvious a goon could make it seem, since the mafia are the only players that knows who's scum and who's town.

I'll be back soon after I've evaluated Spadille's posts so far.

I have played here. Two games but in the both of them, I had to be replaced in Day 1 because I have a busy real life >.<

If it's not too troublesome to dig up, could you post a link to the one you finished?

[Cobblerfone]

Alright, I reread. And I managed to find this, it's kind of been bugging me for the entire game, but I realize now it shouldn't:

Well damn shame. I don't see the Supreme Overlord - izak connection, really. Your only basis was Supreme Overlord joining the wagon and asking questions. WHICH HE ISN'T EVEN DOING BEFORE.

I mean, why did that require emphasis?

To tell Cobblerfone that his vote reason is incorrect.

Actually it was correct. Check page one for Supreme Overlord. I don't think he's scum now, and I think my reasons faulty, but they were factually correct. It also wasn't my only reason for thinking SO and izak were scumbuddies. There was also this:

VOTE: Supreme Overlord LYNCH ALL LURKERS RAWRRR

izakthegoomba wrote:@jmurph3 I hardly think he's a lurker yet

And then Supreme Overlord jumps on the izak-wagon and starts interrogating; good cover for scum.

I'll admit, my "Supreme Overlord is scum because izak's scum and they're bussing-buddies" was pretty flimsy. But, remembering back, that was less a reason for voting, and more explaining how my main reason for suspicion wasn't stopped by that. Admittedly, I over emphasized that part.

And after rereading, it seems that Spadille is the trunk of this tree investigation. Everything leads back to him, not necessarily in a scummy way, more in a order way, he's been leading this thread for almost the entire time. I don't know if he's scum or town, but if he's scum that's very bad.

[Cobblerfone]

No, we should spend as much time on day one as we can. Not everyone has had the chance to be interrogated yet. jmurph3, Trendall, DDD, Heliman, and Spadille (Well, I might do that soon, actually) all have yet to be interogated. Granted, a person that isn't interogated has pretty much not done anything scummy, but the act of interogation itself can be the oppurtunity everyone needs to get a base-read.

@Spadille: Yes I worded it weird, but I what I meant was more or less, "You said Overlord didn't do what I said he did, but he did. What he did doesn't mean he's scum, but that doesn't stop the fact that you were wrong."

[Cobblerfone]

There is barely a wagon and there is a difference between statement and interrogation.

Also, didn't you also find izakthegoomba scummy? All of your reads depends on izakthegoomba being scum.

But, remembering back, that was less a reason for voting, and more explaining how my main reason for suspicion wasn't stopped by that. Admittedly, I over emphasized that part.

I like to think of all the possibilities.

Also both of these points are predicated on izak-scum which is a large assumption for so early in the game, but perhaps you know that izak is scum and you're trying to get someone else to take the fall as his partner?

I like to cover all the possibilities.

[Cobblerfone]

Oops, that first "I like to think of all the possibilities" was a paraphrase that I put there because I didn't want to trudge through the thread, but I decided to anyway for the sake of the theatrics(?), and I forgot to delete it. Well, I guess that's ruined.

[Cobblerfone]

Not only that you like to cover the possiblities, but you happen to even VOTE for them!

Supreme Overlord was an attempt at a pressure vote, we had moved out of the RVS and I'm new to real pressure voting so I didn't really know the different levels pressure. And I have to admit, even with 4/5 votes on me, I don't feel any danger at all. Because: 1. I'm town. 2. We still have most of our 3 weeks left.

There is barely a wagon and there is a difference between statement and interrogation.

I was directing it at this portion of your post. What I meant was, "My main reason for thinking Supreme Overlord was scum if izak was scum was because of the connection that

izakthegoomba

made, which goes along with what you said, that izak was being serious in the part of the game that isn't supposed to be serious. AND that I shouldn't have put so much emphasis on Supreme Overlord's vote, when I was just trying to preemptively justify that the connection was viable."

@izak, because he ninja'd me: Deciding that we're going to lynch Quilford now is pretty much the same as lynching Quilford

right now

.

[Cobblerfone]

I was planning on holding my vote til the third week because I thought it'd be kind of pointless to vote before then. But it's also kind of pointless to hold to it. And the day might be shorter than I thought. I still think we need to interrogate everyone though. I've never played here before, but that ought to take us to the end of the week, right?

Well, that being said:

VOTE: Spadille

[Cobblerfone]

I'm not saying we should come to a final decision right now, but we need some idea of were we're heading.

wat.

Railroading IMO is bad. And getting everything settled is the perfect environment for scum. I prefer to keep them on their toes.

@Everyone: I don't think you need me to tell you this but, don't trust anyone.

Now for Spadille: Reading back on the thread before has made me agree with Quilford. I don't think you really have anything on him. You conveniently forget things a bit too much. Granted, in my case it

could

be because I'm not the best at organizing my thoughts and explaining myself, but it's enough to convince me for now that

you

were the goon on izak's wagon.

@izaktheninja: I feel he's scummy.

[Cobblerfone]

[quote="Cobblerfone]
You conveniently forget things a bit too much.

Where is this?
[/quote]

Okay, perhaps I should rephrase it. You've misinterpreted me too much. But the most blatant was when you agreed with Quilford that my post about asking for the more experienced player to evaluate my point about izak's post time was contradictory a previous posts where I had put most of them as supsects. When the post in question had

clearly

put in provisions for the scenario of the mafia being the players I was looking for.

I'm accusing him of parroting, not indulging himself into scumhunting when he already got a vote on izakthegoomba.. later, bandwagonning(he stacked his vote on izakthegoomba without doing anything with his vote).

So, coming to the same conclusion is parroting? Granted, in my reread for you, I mostly only read yours and Quilford's post. As such, I wouldn't catch parroting. And, that link doesn't exactly look like parroting. I'd ask for links to the posts he's copying, but that feels rude, so I'll go read

again

.

As for the latter two, I don't think those are particularly scummy for the begining of the game.

Also, this part of his post feels town to me:

You seem to be placing suspicion on Spadille for being too town, and I don't like it.

[/quote]

If only because it reminds me of the villagers from my previous experiences.

[Cobblerfone]

Cobblerfone, you have

got

to learn to click the preview button.

[Cobblerfone]

I reread Quilford's post, and I'm pretty sure half of it was from him (points 1, 3, 4, and 8). Point 3 was definitely all him. (Which is nitpicky, who would say a mafia's vote? At the very least it would be a mafiaso's vote. I picked "a goon" because it sounded better than

a

scum or

a

mafia.)

And if someone else actually did make his point 3 first, then, seriously?

[Cobblerfone]

Look at what he's done thus far: in this post he posts an FoS against izak just a few minutes after I do, which is strange in that he's following me in not voting when he really had no reason not to vote.

Actually, Quilford was the first to bring this up.

FoS: jmurph and cobblerfone for not voting their FoS when their other votes were random.

That's another thing you've "forgotten", to quote myself.

Although, after mulling it over, I realized that Quilford didn't just band-wagon on izak, he also band-wagoned on to me. izak and I were pretty much both viable lynches in terms of votes at that point, but I'll concede that band-wagoning mixed with vote-hopping is suspicious.

My vote's on you because I fear that you're leading these barrages and are scum. I also thought it was suspicious that you

appear

to be a competent scum-hunter, when you only have maybe 1/3 good points on Quilford, in my opinion. You still remind me of a goon in that first game I hosted, and Heliman is kind of reminding me of the other one, (mostly that his actions complement yours) but I'm trying to focus on just one person right now.

This is all I got. A feeling. A feeling of fear. Fear that you're trying to lead this town by the nose. Thankfully, whether you're scum or town, it doesn't look like too many people are following you blindly, I think it might just be izak, but it sounds like I've gotten to him, a little at least.

Now, there is no way that you're going to be lynched today, but I'll persist until this fear goes away or you get lynched.

[Cobblerfone]

Actually, Quilford was the first to bring this up.

Reason and Evidence?

I posted his quote from page 2. It doesn't get any more evidence-y than that! What, are you Quilford now? Do you need all these things dug-up yourself? You seemed fine being able to extrapolate things when you were attacking Quilford.

I fear that you're leading these barrages and are scum.
Reason and Evidence?

I fear you are, because if you're scum, then you guiding the thread is bad.

you only have maybe 1/3 good points on Quilford, in my opinion.
Stop basing on your opinion. Reason and Evidence?

What else am I supposed to base my judgments off of? You guys all got in a tizzy fit when I asked for all of yours.

Two people are completely different. Am I the goon in your first game? Why are you basing me in a different person?

You're not acting exactly like her. She was much more emotional, but I think you're trying to pull the same strategy.

It's a good thing I don't have to convince

you

that you're scum. I just hope I do a good enough job for the rest of the town.

[Cobblerfone]

See, jmuprh3 did it first. #77 is a long way from #164.

'tis true, 77 is far from 164. And while 25 is not nearly as far away from 77 as 164 is, it is still quite a ways away. CHECK THE TOP OF PAGE 2. I don't know if you can change the number of posts per page, but check post #25!

I don't know what extrapolate means..

I'll admit, I think I used the wrong word anyway. I should've used something like "notice".

[Cobblerfone]

That you're suspiciously not as good as scumhunting as you seem to be.

I also have a proposition for the town. But I want to wait for everyone else to post, just so the scum can't plan ahead.

[Cobblerfone]

Why so?

One of your three points for Quilford, parroting, came up bad, and I'm one of your suspects, and I'm town, so I know that's wrong.

One of your three points for Quilford, not scumhunting, isn't valid in my opinion because it was early in the game and there

are

different play styles.

Only one of your points is valid. Quilford has bandwagoned twice.

@Quilford: You do admit that hopping from one wagon to another is suspicious right? Care to explain yourself?

[Cobblerfone]

Also, may I ask you, what do you think a member of the town should do?

What you're doing. The problem is you're the only one doing it. And that makes you stick out. And while it doesn't mean you're scum, the best way for a scum to hide is to appear as pro-town as possible, as everyone knows.

You know, a Quilford lynch might be good. It'll let me see what alignment Spadille probably is. And the way Spadille's been posting in the last few posts feels kinda town. Interrogation succeeded I guess.

However, just from doing a brief ISO of him, he seems to be trying to defend Quilford a bit too much, so I'm wary of him.

Nah, I just wanted to make sure everyone got a second opinion in case Spadille's scum.

I guess I'm terrible at scum-hunting, perhaps I should start from the other end then, and get innocent reads? I thought about this last night, so I'll post who I think is innocent with my reasons:

izakthegoomba: 80% sure is town because of the thing I noticed about his 2nd and 3rd posts.

Supreme Overlord: 60% sure is town. He's been in a friendly demeanor and just something about his posts make me think town. He hasn't posted nearly enough for me to be any surer though.

DDD: 60% sure is town. He was being kind of shadowy, and occasionally popped in every now and again, but I don't think a goon would post something like this out of nowhere:

No claiming. Let's wait for jmurph3's opinion.

Why jmurph and not Trendall?

Heliman is 50/50. On the one hand this feels town:

PREVIEW: Oh, you just posted. About your first paragraph: it's not exactly a sin to unknowingly lynch town you know, it happens A LOT.

But on the other hand I just realized the people who vote for me who at the same time aren't really talking like I'm scum are the most suspicious because it let's them distance themselves from a town lynch. So I'm not sure.

Quilford is also 50/50 because the manner of his posts seems town, but his action of bandwagon-hopping is suspicious.

Trendall is 60% scum for the same reason I thought Heliman was for a brief while: he seems town, but in a plasticy, fake sort of way. Also, he's seems to be borrowing from Spadille too much. But maybe it's just his way of replacing Spadille since he's gone?

Spadille. I have no idea, I did jump the gun a little, because he's right, I don't have evidence. If we lynch Quilford and he's town, then I'll say 70% sure he's scum. If Quilford's scum, I'll say 80% sure he's town.

jmurph3, going by memory, seems shadowy, but that might be because she's been gone. I'd post why I think she's scummy, but she hasn't posted enough to really get a tell for this point. And I wouldn't want her changing what I point out.

In addition, I think the scum wouldn't try to act like each other, but if you take that to mean manner, that eliminates Trendall and Heliman as a pair, if that means in terms of votes then that strengthens the pairing. That's the only thing I have for pairing, since Spadille, jmurph3, and Quilford are all interchangeable with each other (With the exception of Spadille/Quilford) and Trendall and Heliman.

So, I've eliminated about half the town maybe from my suspects list. And Quilford would eliminate a few more (Quilford or Spadille). Wait, what? Aw, screw it. I'm tired. Also, my own lynch doesn't make Spadille more suspicious, just in case you decide to go with me, because I went after him.

UNVOTE: Spadille

VOTE: Quilford

[Cobblerfone]

It's getting kind of lonely in here.

calling Trendall at 60% scum and me at 50% yet voting me

Killing you will get me more info on Spadille. As for Trendall, I have no evidence, it's just a feeling. Just like the only thing that makes me think you're innocent is the way you've posted. That's why you're at 50/50 instead of 70/30.

[Cobblerfone]

Spadille's reaction to Quilford's death is too convincing for me. 70% town read. And I have to say, that at least for now, my late day-1 manner reads are on a role.

Also, @Quilford: What the heck, dude?! YOU NEVER EVER HAMMER YOURSELF! It takes up a spot that the mafia could have taken!

VOTE: Heliman

Like I said, he and Trendall seemed plastic-fakey-town to me. And I don't like the way he kept his vote on me but seemed just as down with a Quilford. Seemed too distancy to me.

Well, that's all my thoughts. I understand if you want to lynch me, but I am NOT going to let you guys mislynch the only person that I know is a mislynch.

@izak: What are you refering too?

Supreme Overlord was the cop? Weird, I had this aura of feeling that the town was all vanilla. I guess I just feel that way in every game.

[Cobblerfone]

He was against Quilford, piggybacking the people's reason.

Huh? I thought Quilford was town, but there was the one good point against him. I thought a Town!Quilford lynch would be good evidence of your scumliness, and a Scum!Quilford lynch would show I needed improvement, and I would've been okay with you guys lynching me. However, you're reaction appeared genuine, hence the Heliman vote.

[Cobblerfone]

Don't get me wrong, you should never self-hammer as town but more interestingly you don't think that both scum were on the Quilford wagon? Why or why not?

Nitpicky semantics. I don't know if one or both were on Quilford, maybe even neither. Also I might point out that you seem to have forgotten that last possibilty. A scum-slip perhaps?

That question earlier to Spadille, that made me think DDD was 60% town might've been an attempt at a set-up.

As for why I voted Quilford anyway, like I said, 50/50, the 50 town was because of my "manner-read" as I call them. the 50 scum was because of the one good point: hopping between wagons. I wasn't sure how good my reads were (second game after all) and I thought it would help me decide in how scummy Spadille

actually

was. Needless to say it did, but not in the way I expected.

[Cobblerfone]

Oops. Looking back the way DDD worded was kind of open. Nevermind then.

[Cobblerfone]

It was between a person I

read

as town or someone I

knew

was town.

And I did push for your lynch. But I didn't have evidence. Only paranoia, so I went for the person with evidence on them, even though I read them as town.

[Cobblerfone]

Looking back, I probably should of pushed Heliman, Trendall, or maybe jmurph3. ...But hindsights 20/20.

[Cobblerfone]

Also, if Quilford was scum, we'd have a proven scumhunter. And chances are if I did push a Trendall or Heliman, you'd guys probably lynch me and no info would be gained because I've been acting scummy enough on my own. (At least that's what you guys all seem to indicate, getting me to L-1, and now L-2 and all.)

Sorry for Triple Post. I've been on a bit of a rambly-rumbly thought-train.

[Cobblerfone]

Why are you willing to lynch Quilford when Cobblerfone was scummier?

Didn't you vote for him? *Read on Spadille drops to 60% town.*

[Cobblerfone]

I was actually about to hammer you for the same reason I voted you now, just waiting for Supreme Overlord, jmuph3 and the other V/LAers. UNTIL QUILFORD HAMMERS HIMSELF LOL.

Well, I guess hindsight tells you that you should've tried to unvote before that.

I just noticed this:

[quote="Spadille""]But you said you thought he is town, why would you push for his lynch when you have a town read on him?[/quote]

I don't recall pushing for his lynch. I just voted for him and explained why. If it weren't a debate of semantics, I'd put you at 50/50 because of that combined with the above.

[Cobblerfone]

More than me, yeah.

Are you saying I should have just unvoted and do nothing while you looked over everyone else? A vote on anyone else would've been more or less the same as an "Unvote" at that point.

[Cobblerfone]

Point is, I was pretty sure either Quilford or myself was going to be lynched, and the other one probably lynched the next day. Out of the two of us I think Quilford gives more info, since everyone thinks I'm scum, while Quilford had one piece of evidence, and we can use that to find out who had the best or worst case or what have you (Though admittedly, I'm starting to see how that could be applied to me; maybe we can use my confirmed-through-death innocence to find the scum).

Anyway, I don't think I'll ever be able to improve my situation this way, and it definitely distracts from the actual scum. That's what happened yesterday with you and Quilford; a big old fight that the scum used as cover to avoid interrogation. If you want to lynch me: fine whatever, but please, PLEASE interrogate everyone else as well. DO NOT WASTE this day arguing with a townie again.

To avoid Semantic's Debate, MY definition of pushing a lynch is 'contributing for his lynch'. Your vote means more than what it seems. A vote means a strong opinion that what you are tackling in front of you is a scum.

Ah, glad that's settled. When I read, "Pushing for a lynch," I think of someone that finds evidence, brings it out, or is even just going, "LYNCH! LYNCH! LYNCH!"

[Cobblerfone]

Judging from that last paragraph, DDD is probably town. I'm 70% Confident in both DDD and Spadille again. Well, that leaves the last three.

I'm suspicious of players using a dead player's suspicion as their own.

I've actually seen it work for town before, but since that leads to me, would you guys lynch one of the three tomorrow if I die today?

[Cobblerfone]

Everyone's "Read"? what do you mean by "read"?

I don't know if you're being sarcastic because you think reads are useless, but a "read" generally refers to what you think of a player based on their behaviour and the way they do it.

Woah DDD you may want to watch where you trip, you're getting scum all over your suit! Why? because by my count we basically have the same amount of posts.

Yeah, but DDD's posts have generally been more varied. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head other than the "Why jmurph3 but not Trendall" post, but I'm sure DDD doesn't need my help defending him.

[Cobblerfone]

Well if that's then case then It's also WIFOM and he shouldn't be asking everyone for it.

Do you even know what WIFOM is? Cause, that's that other buzzword that's been popping up.

[Cobblerfone]

I'm saying that you shouldn't vote for someone you think is town, you should vote for someone who you think is SCUM.

Fair. Though at that point, I wasn't as confident in my own reads.

Also, I'm calling it right now: Heliman/Trendall

izak is a possibility but he and Trendall both voted for Quilford, I'll admit it could be a kind of WIFOM-y reason for me to think they're not connected, but it just doesn't work. Trendall's original defense of izak sounds more like scum getting town-cred to me:

If izak really was scum trying to deprive the town of information, I doubt he'd do it by saying 'I WANT TO GET DAY ONE OUT OF THE WAY EVERYONE LOOK HERE IS MY VOTE TO SPEED DAY ONE UP'. I think he'd be more subtle.

(Also this part isn't for evidence, I'm just clearing something up for Trendall)

#6 - Cobblerfone puts in a random vote, which is all well and good, except he specifically says that he wants to put it on an SE. I dunno why, but that just doesn't sit right with me.

Who else to put a more or less random vote on? The IC is the teacher, the newbs haven't played here before, and the game is about teaching the newbies.

Though, on the topic of izak, it's possible Heliman's earlier response to izak could be scum scolding bad scum:

I'm not. It's day one and not even a page into the game. This is just scum hunting. I'm putting Izak on the spot with a vote and some questions about his actions to see if he can tell me any other good reasons why he made mistakes like these besides being scum.

Either way, Heliman's scum I think. I'm less sure about partner, but I'd say Trendall is the most likely scum partner. Enough on possible partners though, you guys want evidence? I'll give you evidence.

But I'm not trying to get you lynched (not yet, anyway). I'm trying to build up a pressure wagon on you so we can get some idea as to your reactions under pressure.

Everyone, seriously, shut the fuck up about "Pressure." L1, L2, L3, It doesn't make a god damn bit of difference if you don't bring any guns to the table, it's just being passive, parroty and
scummy. Votes come and go like sand on a windy day, arguments are the mud stays behind late game.

Oh and Heliman dude, who's your 2 FoS's?

I was going to say that I had none, but after rereading I have to say Quilford and Cobblefone.

Cobblefone, because I could see his actions right now as an obvious (see #45) chainsaw defense of Izak by going after the people voting on him. You'll note how in #50 he switches straight over from Quillford to super, with nothing more than a bullshit WIFOM argument to stand on.

Second, Quillford, because it looks like he's trying to fake scumhunting by bandwagoning, then parroting other player's arguments when he gets pinned for bandwagoning. He also never asked Izak a question when he made his "pressure" vote, meaning he's not leaving the targeted player an outing, and to me that means he's not expecting to have to remove his Vote to begin with. ({sarcasm}You know, unless that argument falls apart, but that's okay though, right? it just was a "pressure" vote after all.{/sarcasm}) He's being aggressive and passive at the same time, that's a twofer for being scum.

(Would either of you two care to convince me otherwise?)

Anyhow, what do you know, both of these suspicions are dependent on weather or not Izak is scum. It looks like I really am voting for him today.

Anyone else feel anything

off

with this post? Also, I'd forgotten why I was apparently so scummy, it started here when Heliman accused me of Chainsaw-defending izak (which would be an obvious bad play no matter what). But it turns out, half the players now seem to think izak's innocent, thus there isn't any reason to suspect me because of this. It's possible I'm scum and I was trying to get town-cred, but at that point in the game, that doesn't sound smart (not that I've really shown many smarts this game).

I guess I'm terrible at scum-hunting, perhaps I should start from the other end then, and get innocent reads?

That is incredibly dumb on more levels than I can count.

Why is it dumb? It doesn't help give evidence for

my

innocence, but it's been helping me cross people off my list of suspects. I guess this game will tell if it works.

Oh, and when I ISO'd him I found this, It's not evidence, just a question that I feel like answering:

Cobbler, can you tell me what you mean by "Second opinion?"

At the time Spadille was the only one really hunting Quilford, and it's no good to have only one person hunt, or for there to be only one viewpoint. Heck, I'd like to look at two viewpoints given by two different players and see which one is the more likely, and who's the most scummy if the player in question is lynched; the person that pushed it or the person who defended? Leads to WIFOM sure, but that's why you take questions into account such as, "how good was the evidence? How sure did they appear of their opinion? etc."

[Cobblerfone]

Hey wait a minute! When did I even chainsaw-defend izak, as Heliman calls?!

[Cobblerfone]

And I don't mean accuse of bussing! I know I did that. I mean when did I ever seem to indicate that I thought izak's attackers were a better lynch than izak himself at that point?

[Cobblerfone]

I read it, and I still don't see what you're talking about. I thought he had one vote on him from scum already. I didn't say who I thought it was or bring up points (SO notwithstanding, but that doesn't count because that relied on izak being scum)

And take a look at this:

UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.

Link: http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... Version.29

Granted it's a wiki, but come on.

[Cobblerfone]

By which I mean it could be edited by anyone, no offense meant.

[Cobblerfone]

For the people who are asking for my second/third suspect or whatever, I simply don't have one at this stage.

THIS. This is the bomb. His eyes are only set to Quilford.

He has no idea who Cobblerfone is in D-1. That is the issue.

You mean like he's trying to wait and see who he could best suspect the next day, and so is just trying to remain neutral? I could see that.

Or it's possible he legitimately doesn't suspect me. Which would be cool. Doesn't change how he looks, but it would be nice none-the-less. And if Trendall's innocent, you might just be trying to find little nitpicky suspicious things like you did with Quilford. And we all know how that turned out. Heck, now that I just realized that, Spadille is on my watchlist again. I still think Heliman's scummier though.

[Cobblerfone]

Clarify:You mean like he's trying to wait and see who he could best "suspect" the next day, and so is just trying to remain neutral?

That's the spirit of that line. faux-suspicion. Still, looks like I just gave my opposing viewpoint. I don't know if it's any good or if you guys should listen to me this time, but whatever, I just want Heliman lynched.

[Cobblerfone]

Actually I'm kind of surprised that our IC, with the title, "Best Performance: Mafia", didn't catch that.

In fact, that title makes me worried. It means you were the best at not appearing scummish while being scum right? If so, I can't rely on my read.

[Cobblerfone]

Oh, I'm not accusing, just noting that it's useless to read him.

[Cobblerfone]

[quote="Heliman"Because the best and only way to be successful as scum is to look like town, if you start from the top, seeing who looks town and who doesn't, you pick the wrong player every time if the Scum knows it's shit. You have to suspect EVERYONE AT ALL TIMES, Crossing people off a list will hamper that.[/quote]

That's why they're "manner" reads. It's hard to explain, but I'll try. Basically I just try to check for sincerity.

(enlarged for importance)
Cobblerfone wrote:
And I don't mean accuse of bussing! I know I did that. I mean when did I ever seem to indicate that I thought izak's attackers were a better lynch than izak himself at that point?

Woah woah woah hold up HOLD UP. You've been bussing? What? I... um, didn't know town could bus.

Like this. Your massive misinterpretation of my post is obviously town. There's no way a scum would blow something out like this, even sarcastically.

UNVOTE: Heliman

(For the record, what I meant was that I didn't straight out attack the players on izak, I thought they were bussing. Which means I thought izak was scum. Thus it's not chainsaw. Not really anyway.)

COBBLER, if me hunting Izak sounded like scum scolding scum, THEN HOW WOULD ME SCOLDING YOU ABOUT EVERY OTHER ARGUMENT YOU MAKE NOT SOUND EXACTLY LIKE THAT. I talk like this for everybody.

I actually read your corrections to me in a kind of easy going teacher-way. Anyway, you've stopped appearing Fake-plastic town. I guess it's a post-count thing. Makes me question my Trendall suspicion.

Spadille is trying too hard. Whether scum or town, he's trying way too hard.

[Cobblerfone]

I know. I just don't think he's scum anymore. He's givin' off the same vibe as Quilford to me.

[Cobblerfone]

Okay, not vibe. Acting like.

[Cobblerfone]

What are you talking about? I'm just saying you're trying too hard; putting in more effort in than it's worth. If you're scum, it's not worth it, I think. If you're town, you're not coming up with good points and it's lead to one town death already.

[Cobblerfone]

I don't care if you think I'm scum. At least it's the last day you can get a mislynch. Better me than another townie that will lead to me being lynched tomorrow and a mafia-win. Anyway, we still need discussion from the other players.

[Cobblerfone]

What? You were all for discussion when Quilford was at L-1 and before that and after that!

VOTE: Spadille

Finally a proper slip.

[Cobblerfone]

You yourself refused to discuss this and I am already standing on my decision for your lynch, I have everything on you now.
And if I am right, they will discuss before voting.

I didn't want to discuss it because I didn't want you wasting time on a townie. But fine, would scum vote-hop and vote without proper reasons?

But I already know your answer. And to save you the trouble I'll post it for you:

WIFOM

And if I am right, they will discuss before voting.

I sincerely doubt that you are right. Also, if you were

really

worried about a hammer on Quilford, why didn't you unvote before he could hammer himself?

[Cobblerfone]

Also, I'm getting to the point where even I think my manner-reads are getting useless. I'm certainly not basing votes on them anymore.

[Cobblerfone]

Which one? Why I think DDD is scum? I said I didn't, just that he's unreadable. Though you're covering him makes me think you two could be linked. IDK.

[Cobblerfone]

EDIT to earlier post: Yeah, yeah, I know, "your not you're".

And by covering, I mean worried that I'm suspicious of him. I still don't know whether or not he's scum though. He actually hasn't answered my question of what his title actually means. Must be at work or something. I'll go look it up on the wiki. I'm sure it's there.

Are you gonna play dumb and not gonna pay attention to the links I'm giving you? This is like the third time.

You said the last question, that was the last question in the post. Sorry for being literal. Is it the one about why I wanted Heliman lynched? Isn't it obvious? I thought he was scum at the time. Doesn't get any simpler than that.

[Cobblerfone]

HOW AND WHY.

Stupidly and because he seemed scummy. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head. But I don't feel like coming up with reasons for why I thought someone scummy when I don't anymore. I'd rather focus on who I think is scum now. You've misinterpreted posts in a way that distorts them, such as saying that Quilford's one big post against was parroting, and convincing even myself that I've acted scummy when looking back I don't think I have.

Also, I can't find DDD's award on the wiki.

Also, look at this, we're taking up a page. All well, I guess since we're the only ones here anyway, we might as well argue.

[Cobblerfone]

Okay. Thanks. I assumed it was a personal award specifically for being the best "performer" or "actor", like nobody suspected you were scum until the final epilogue where it's announced you're mafia. That cleared that up.

[Cobblerfone]

And also my uncanny ability to multipost lol

Mine too.

No, YOU will. Otherwise you are agreeing that YOU are VOTING WITHOUT PROPER REASONS. Why did you vote Heliman? You don't need to come up with reasons if you have one.

I don't even know what this is. Oh, wait, you mean "Come up with", like I'm faking them? I told you the two main reasons, he was plastic-fakey. But I guess that's not a proper tell. Now I think it's just a post-count thing. Like if you don't post a lot whatever you say will sound insincere or parroty.

The other, was accusing me of chainsaw-defending izak, when I didn't. But apparently Heliman's just bad with the lingo right now.

[Cobblerfone]

Here, he seems far too careful not to look scummy, and unvotes.

Nah, just being polite. I didn't say it was scummy. Also, nobody wants to look scummy. And if I was trying to be careful, why all the "fail" from me later on?

Here, he tries to make something out of Quilford typing two FoSes and one vote, when it's pretty obvious that jmurph3 and Cobblerfone were just Quilford's secondary suspects, besides me.

No, it was slightly hypocritical. Though at that point I guess there was enough for you to appear a better suspect than either of us.

He then tries to accuse Supreme Overlord just because he started questioning me. He then uses that to try and justify bandwagoning against SO.

I didn't bandwagon. It was a pressure vote. Everyone was talking about "pressure" like it was something that took place every game. So I did what I thought was logical and "pressure voted" to try to get him to post.

In the early stages of the game, he bases pretty much all of his arguments on me being scum; an enormous assumption to make that early, unless he's scum trying to frame someone.

You have to admit, your moves were very scummy.

Here, he admits that he is going by a "gut feeling" - so, he had no reason for his suspicion. He also unvotes again. He's now shown he's a big votehopper. Scumpoints.

Votehopping is a nulltell. As proven by Quilford who wagon-hopped.

Here, he tries to get out of having his own opinion! Very scummy.

Parroting. Mindless. Parroting. Also, where do I try to do that exactly? I said was that I wanted to get out for a bit so I could become more objective so I could form an opinion without risking my emotions get in the way.

Here and here, he tries to get the more experienced players to make the decisions for him. Again, trying to dodge out of having his own opinion.

I wanted the opinion of the elders to make sure I had a solid case for your innocence. Since, you know, I failed at making a solid case for your guiltiness earlier, and I'm kind of bad at finding evidence especially since 6 of us are newbies and it's hard to tell the difference between scummy behaviour and newbieness.

On multiple occasions, he mentions that he wants to "cover all the possibilities". Here, he quotes himself as saying that twice. But it contradicts his own reads, which were almost all based on me being scum.

There weren't any other reasonable possibilties at that time. Everythings

possible

, but they have to be at least slightly reasonable to be worth posting.

Here, he votes. Again.

A statement of fact. Can't argue with that.

Here, he accuses Spadille of "not being as good at scumhunting as he seems to be". What? Ok, so it turned out Quilford was a mislynch, but you didn't know that at the time, and Spadille was doing a good enough job of scumhunting him.

Here, he posts a load of pretty bad reads (how did he move mine from 50% town to 80% town based on some post timings?), and then changes his vote again.

So you think the post times are bad evidence? Noted. Combined with this senseless accusation you're obviously newb scum. I'm joking of course. It's better than what I've done in this thread.

Here, he says Spadille is scummy because he didn'tvote for Cobblerfone.
Newsflash: Cobblerfone was at L-1 already. spadille didn't want to hammer just yet.

He could have just "Unvoted" you know.

Here and here, he introduces the absurd concept that DDD is unreadable. True, that's not particularly scummy, but it's very odd.

Here... Umm, don't know if you noticed, but Quilford flipped town?

Yeah, that's why I unvoted Heliman. (Click link for context)

Here... What? Spadille thinks you are scum. He wants you lynched. Simple as.

He's also wrong, and has been very good at making his wrong reasons seem right.

Here... perhaps because there was no reason for him to know Quilford would self-hammer?

Someone else might've hammered. He mentions that himself earlier. I'll go look it up.

[Cobblerfone]

When did this happen?

He was on izak. Then he switched to me. It's not the exact same as I've been doing, but it's similiar. That's why I specified it was "wagon-hopping".

Notice the one where I said I would like no one to hammer yet.

Saying =/= doing. And if you were so worried about someone hammering izak, why weren't you worried about someone hammering Quilford?

I case against you doesn't. It took me less than 5 hours.
Voting izak will leave him into L-1. And if someone hammers that, it's an early end. An early D-1 is not helpful.
So, I'm interested in what else except me not voting izak makes me scum?

Who would hammer and why?

That's why the word if and someone is invented. It's a matter of 'might' and a matter of 'who'. It's a possibility. And we don't like to take the chances. After all, there's no reason to put someone at L-1, right?

You worry about the end to an early day 1 enough to not put izak at L-1, but not enough about not getting opinions from everyone when Quilford was at L-1? Even though you were pushing hard for people to post? And again, you want people's opinions, but are also pushing for an early lynch for me. It just doesn't match up.

[Cobblerfone]

@izak: You're talking about my post right? 'cause at first I thought you were talking about Heliman's three points. Also, kind of weird for you to turn around so fast. But maybe you're just similiar to Vezok? *notes*

I didn't say that it was a chainsaw defense, I said I could see it as like a chainsaw defense, which is why it was an FOS. As for the Null Tell, you'll note that at the time I was still voting Izak, who was still scummy, and whose flip would have seen wether or not it was a null tell. There was no flaw in my reasoning at that point

Ah... Don't know why you didn't just say that you thought I was using a chainsaw-bus (OH THE IMAGERY! IT IS BEAUTIFUL!), but whatever.

And I see now what you're saying about wanting to flip izak before. That clears it up for me.

[Cobblerfone]

Okay. That's just plain scummy

@Spadille: I still think you're scum. But if you're not, I say we call a truce for today and vote izakthegoomba. After discussion of course.

UNVOTE: Spadille

Until he answers.

[Cobblerfone]

It's just that you were shouting "hey look! Trendall's Lurking! Isn't that suspcious?" when I'm pretty sure that it's been covered that Trendall (or was it someone else? I'll check.) checks the site on his phone.

[Cobblerfone]

Well that was easier than looking up who Spadille didn't want to put at L-1. It was Trendall.

This is just the straw that's broken the camel's back. It's possible you just play scummily, but come on.

[Cobblerfone]

I'm going to type to myself to figure out where I stand on izak really. Anyway, what's scummy about izak, from memory?

1. He wanted an early day one and wanted to "railroad" the Quilford lynch.

If he knew it was advantageous for scum, it's likely he knew it was scummy, and like I think Trendall said earlier, scum rarely come out and say "here I am".
Granted, I was kind of suggesting a railroad here. But I was thinking, "Let's just hang the scum staring at us in the face." It's possible izak wanted discussion and thought Quilford was scum. Maybe he's just easily influenced in this game.

2. Parroting, especially parroting Spadille.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and I don't even have first hand knowledge that parroting, especially heavy parroting, is scummy. Course, you'd think if he were scum and learned parroting was bad here, he'd probably stop as soon as he heard that was the case against Quilford. But, no he starts being Spadille's shadow well after it.

Of course it's possible izak is scum and a mastermind at WIFOM. But, until proven I guess.

I think I over-reacted unless anyone wants to prove why my answers are wrong. In which case, I'll gladly vote izakthegoomba.

VOTE: Spadille

Heck, the two are compatible anyway. But, whatever.

[Cobblerfone]

All right. The problem, as I see it, is town might just be as likely to parrot because it is arguably a question of who comes first, because scummy posts are a limited resource. And why would izak parrot when he had already heard a case that was (falsely) using parroting as evidence? Why not just stay quiet? He was already in the clear. It doesn't make sense. But it's possible izak wasn't parroting when trying to get Quilford lynch. All I remember is he was Spadille's little shadow. I have to check back, because that's what my counter-counter-counterpoint to myself hinges on.

[Cobblerfone]

But wait, if he isn't parroting that isn't a reason for scumhood.

Oi, just give up on reading izak, Cobblerfone.

[Cobblerfone]

Your scum strategy?

Anyway, it's true I only posted the one reason for why I unvoted in that post. But considering that one the reasons for voting Heliman was

also

because of the way he posted, I don't see why it matters.

Especially since the other reason for voting him was because the evidence side of things was him using the wrong term. Which, is just semantics, really.

(I probably did not use the word "semantics" properly.)

As for the only question from you to me that I really think needs answering left: "DO YOU THINK TRENDALL IS TOWN? WHY?"

I don't know if he's town or not. But if you're scum, he's probably not.

[Cobblerfone]

You know, when I flip town, there's no way you're going to live this down. I can't decide which is more likely:

That you're town because you're pushing so hard for people that are town and there's "no way" you'd do this if you were scum.

Or

That you're scum who's counting on that fact.

Seriously, they both seem just as likely to me. If you're town though, I suggest that in the future to look at who you think is scum, and then immediately discard it, because, Quilford, me, and (maybe/probably) izak are all town. But I know you're definitely wrong with at least two of them.

Parroting? Can you please give us links of all his points that was already mentioned by other players?

I actually wasn't sure. I was refering to the arguments he gave for lynching Quilford, because I thought they came from you, but when I looked back I was so tired I couldn't read more than a couple posts. Point is, if he did parrot then I'm sure he's town. I'm still kind of tired, I'll try to look it up later.

[Cobblerfone]

That you're town because you're pushing so hard for people that are town and there's "no way" you'd do this if you were scum.

Or

That you're scum who's counting on that fact.

You know. That does sound kind of ridiculous, eh? So, I guess

UNVOTE: Spadille

Well, that leaves Trendall, jmurph3, maybe izak, and DDD.

[Cobblerfone]

Why would scum do that? If you're willing to accept that WIFOM, I'm willing to accept mine and revote you.

[Cobblerfone]

You are constantly accusing someone then admitting it was not a reason to accuse someone and unvoting

That. Why would scum do that instead of not voting, wagon riding, or just sticking with their vote?

[Cobblerfone]

@Spadille: I unvoted you because of WIFOM. The simplest answer is usually the best to work with, is it not?

It works the opposite way though why would town do that either?

Because town isn't thinking about not acting scummy. A townie might allow themselves to do something scummy and not think it's suspiciuos because they're town and if they're doing it, why would it be scummy? But scum are careful not to do things they think are suspicious.

Cobblerfone, using WIFOM will not help you survive. It will sink you down because using WIFOM as defense is scumtell.

Can you give any reason why it's a scumtell? And I want statistics or at the very least a logical explanation.

If you are scum, please claim and we will get this day over with and you can play another game wherein you can adjust your play style.

I'm already playing another game. It's still ongoing.

[Cobblerfone]

But scum are careful not to do things they think are suspicious.

Heck, just by way of being scum, if a goon wants to do something because it gives him an andvantage, he can guess it's scummy.

[Cobblerfone]

Scumminess is a global sin. It's about it's extremity that makes people be lynched out of it. AND NO. Townie WILL create LOGICAL and NON-SHIT accusations and not throw them away like it's a candy wrapper.

What I says applies to newb town. And competency isn't inherent in being town. If anything, it's inherent in being mafia.

[Cobblerfone]

YAY! I wasn't sure if the WIFOM was reasonable! But the IC has validated me! Granted, it's possible DDD is mafia... But YAY!

[Cobblerfone]

Oh yeah,

VOTE: Spadille

The only thing that stopped me was the WIFOM. But as DDD pointed out, it might not be a pure WIFOM but could instead be the use of making things appear scummy to use that as an excuse instead of just counting on it being so obvious.

[Cobblerfone]

Competency the way I see it is Quantity. It's the competitiveness right? Being competitive in mafia is done by posts.

Competency doesn't share the root with compete. (Well it might, I'm not an etymologist.)

"Competency" is like proficency or skill. If one is competent, one is skilled or wise.

[Cobblerfone]

I actually wasn't sure. I was refering to the arguments he gave for lynching Quilford, because I thought they came from you, but when I looked back I was so tired I couldn't read more than a couple posts. Point is, if he did parrot then I'm sure he's town. I'm still kind of tired, I'll try to look it up later.

I almost forgot, but I wrote earlier than that, that I had decided through reasoning whether or not parroting would have been good enough evidence for izakthegoomba at that point, since that was one of the two points. I had decided that it wouldn't have been because it doesn't make sense for scum to immediately do something that's was used as part of the case against Quilford. It's better to just stay quiet. And, if izakthegoomba hadn't parroted, then there's no evidence for or against him. I'll still reread it if you really want me to. It's just searching through this thread is really troublesome. What's the easiest way to ISO? I'll have to do it twice, but still it's nice to know.

[Cobblerfone]

Actually after thinking about it, it would make sense if competent and compete had the same origin because they both deal with skill.

I checked izak's post history and looked at all the games he's in. @izak: Have any of you're games finished?

[Cobblerfone]

Darn, messed up you're/your again.

Anyway, it could be helpful in deciding whether izak's scum or scummy town.

[Cobblerfone]

Ever heard of meta? You can only work with finished games though. Because,

1. you don't know the person's alignment until it's officially revealed.

2. It's bad to bring multiple ongoing games into a big ol' meta-mess. Because the rules are to play-to-win.

[Cobblerfone]

WIFOM shouldn't ever be reasonable... Where and how did Debo approve of your WIFOM exactly? Because as far as I can see he has been just calling you a generally bad player the same way we do.

Well, the WIFOM was "why would he attack us both so hard when we're going to flip town?" but, since DDD pointed out it might not be a WIFOM strategy, but instead an improvised gambit using "scumtells" which he defines.

[Cobblerfone]

No, you're using bad or false scumtells. That's scummy.

[Cobblerfone]

You used parroting for the case against Quilford. He wasn't parroting. FALSE SCUMTELL

You used not attacking izak when Quilford was the 3rd vote for the case against Quiford. BAD SCUMTELL

I'm town, so I know you're using bad/false scumtells.

What's you're case against me again? Vote hopping right? Yeah, that's a bad scumtell.

[Cobblerfone]

Wtf. I'm accusing you of using CrapLogicTM when voting, accusing and arguing with someone and everything that the town, as whole, accuses you of. Who said anything about Vote Hopping?! Wow.

Ah, yes that's right. I must have somehow gotten voting and unvoting for the same person mixed up with vote-hopping.

This is actually good. Voting and not doing anything with that vote is scummy. Or don't you think so?

Considering Quilford's town, it's at the very least null or a bad scumtell. Which, for the purposes of this argument, is a scumtell that town is likely to do even though scum have a

reason

for doing so.

He wasn't parroting.
Really now? I proved this already a debate ago. Unless you would like to be proven wrong, you can go ahead and try.

What was your conclusion? Was he or was he not parroting?

As for your case against me:

CrapLogicTM: Hardly a tell for either side. I think competency is more inherent in being scum, but even if you disagree, wouldn't it be more indicative of a person's own capabilities than what side they are on? And where is my crap logic? I'd like examples. You know, so I can disprove them like the case against Quilford.

"accusing and arguing with someone and everything that the town, as whole, accuses you of. " I'm sorry but what? Accusing and arguing with someone is a tell? What? Surely you didn't mean to type this.

[Cobblerfone]

EDIT FOR CLARITY:Considering Quilford's town, it's at the very least null or a bad scumtell. Which, for the purposes of this argument, is a scumtell that town is likely to do even if scum have a reason for doing the tell.

[Cobblerfone]

I do kind of agree with you about DDD, though, if you're town, Spadille, I'll vote him. Even though I'll probably get the rope today or tomorrow.

[Cobblerfone]

Ah, yes that's right. I must have somehow gotten voting and unvoting for the same person mixed up with vote-hopping.

Meh, I don't like my wording. But it's hard to say what I mean here. Um... Voting and then getting criticsized and then unvoting. Which, I think only happened once.

My vote history:

jmurph3; reason: RVS.

Quilford; reason: RVS politeness.

Supreme Overlord; reason: Saw a possible link between he and izak; wanted to help find possible scumbuddies.

Spadille; reason: Didn't like that just one person was scumhunting and leading the discussion.

Quilford; reason: Wanted to check Spadille's and my own methods to check for accuracy. He also wagon-hopped from izak to me, which I thought was a possible tell. I learn it is not always.

Heliman; reason: sounded fakey town, accused me of something I didn't do. reason for unvote: Stopped sounding fake and it was just a mix up of terms.

Spadille; reason: Didn't unvote Quilford when he had a chance even when he wanted discussion. Has had two confirmed to me misreads that rely on poor tells.

If I missed any votes, I'd like them pointed out.

Will be posting a seperate post as a response to Spadille's latest.

[Cobblerfone]

He did [parrot].

I'm pretty sure I've already proven you wrong, you've even admitted it.

Yep. You're right. 1 is original.

3, 5, 6 and 8 are originals. No doubt about that.

3/8 unoriginal points is hardly parroting.

And yet you voted me for his statement? (And your vote reason is so far from his statement.)

My vote on DDD requires that you flip town. You are still more suspicious to me. And if you flip scum, DDD is definitely not suspicious to me.

[Cobblerfone]

You were saying that I don't have anything against Quilford which I had and I had posted what exactly am I accusing him off.

Ah, this sounds like a misunderstanding. This sounds like you think I meant that you weren't making a case. What I was saying was that your case was built on poor evidence.

Also, you admitted that 'leading the discussion' thing was based on fear.

Yeah, so?

I told you that even though you were scummier that stage and I would like to hammer you when V/LAers come, I still find Quilford scummy. I don't want to lose pressure on both of you especially when I am seeing him contradict himself sometime.

I think we'd already concluded by that time that "pressure votes" are worth nothing at all. (Not evidence really. Just commenting. I don't care if you agree or disagree about pressure.)

telling that town would not discuss before voting

Um, they didn't before Quilford hammered himself.

Also, I'm not using gut anymore.

[Cobblerfone]

Make that 3/6 because 2 of his arguments was using ShitLogicTM

So you admit that town uses craplogic?

[Cobblerfone]

Trying to shed off Spaidlle's vote onto other people twice in a row is a little too much for me.

What do you mean by this?

If DDD gets to the same conclusion you did without circular reasoning, then it doesn't validate your WIFOM, It just tells us that you could have gone about your entire argument differently without using a horrible strategy on purpose and have come to the same point.

The WIFOM actually made me not vote for Spadille. It's not really a WIFOM per se, I guess. I honestly don't know what else to call it.

@Spadille: How come you asked for everyone's reads, but you didn't reveal who you think is my scumbuddy when jmurph3 asked you? Is it because you know I'm not scum, and you want me dead first so you can lynch the next scummiest townie without having to explain how we connect?

[Cobblerfone]

As far as I know, if I

am

scum, then there's no reason for you not to reveal my supposed partner. After all, if you're right, you're obviously very good at this and the other partner would of course kill you in the night.

[Cobblerfone]

If Spaidlle were wrong, your partner could easily just kill the Spaidlle anyway to make it look like the one he suspected was guilty. That's how circular reasoning works.

I believe that's why you're not supposed to analyze night-kills. Like, at all.

Heliman's reasons for voting me are suspicious. It's like he's explicitly trying to avoid parroting. So he comes up with his own lackluster reasons. Why did I unvote you again? Because my original evidence fell through, and because of the way you posted right? Hold that thought.

Since I'm at L-1, I figure I might as well write out my will. Perhaps it will be of some use to you.

The last will and testament of Cobblerfone, a Vanilla Townie:

You guys all know what I think of Spadille. But I'm going to take off the Tunnel-Vision glasses for a moment so I can help Spadille IF he is town. First off, fix your scumhunting style. It's not working. It leads to tunnel-vision and the foul language and indirect insults are not endearing. And being endearing is actually pretty important in this game. You focused on Quilford and became convinced he was scum no matter what he or I said. That led to me tunnel-visioning you, which led to you tunnel-visioning me. Granted, pretty much no one has posted at all, but it still looks bad.

Now, who should Spadille, and by extension the rest of the town, suspect if he is not scum himself? I'll give you two names: Heliman and izakthegoomba.

Heliman seemed raring to go for a good ol' aggressive Spadille-esque scumhunt near the start of the game. He even warned us that he came from an aggresive forum. But look at his ISO. He has maybe two real contributing posts, the rest is just "helpful hints" type stuff. There's barely any scumhunting despite what a big deal he makes of it. Then, on D-2 he seems to fence sit between me and Spadille.

Second: izakthegoomba. Now, I've flip-flopped on izak so many times it's not even funny. But he's the only one that's performed an actual traditional scumtell. His gloating at the beginning of the day. That and the general demeanor of his posts.

Well, a dead man's vote is worth very little. Plus I might've just been stubborn, IDK. Might as well

UNVOTE: Spadille

[Cobblerfone]

Hmm... His unvoting makes me think he's town. Simply because if he were scum he could just use his V/LA as an excuse for not unvoting me.

[Cobblerfone]

...the very special flower that is Cobblerfone.

(I think I'm improving at least. This specific game is pretty messed up. But the Cthulhu one is finished if you want to see.)

But.. weren't you just analyzing a potential night kill? If you're being sarcastic, then I can tell you myself that you're observation is going to have little effect before the lynch occurs.

It was kind of sarcastic. I mean, do you not notice how it only applies if I'm scum?

You call it hints, but I call it scumhunting in a newbie game: helpful, but with a point. You call it unaggressive, but I call it not being a total asshole to newer players: trying to make their first experience not a total wreck that they will make them never want to play afterward. I'm not the IC, but I am attempting to play without being too mean, that's for other subforums.

This is satisfactory. Though you have to admit, looking at your ISO, you don't really do much scumhunting of any sort. Neither the aggresive style of Spadille or the more relaxed style of DDD. IDK, maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I should ISO DDD just to compare you guys. To see if Heliman really is contributing too low.

As for Spadille, I'm still not sure anymore. Maybe he's scum and just doesn't want to be called off for not unvoting, IDK. But if I were scum and in his position, I wouldn't have unvoted. I have to hear him explain himself. If there's one thing I'm trying not to do, it's tunnel.

[Cobblerfone]

Okay, I read through Heliman's ISO again and he does pick up the scumhunting on D-2. So, that part of my suspicion of him has been quenched.

But.. weren't you just analyzing a potential night kill? If you're being sarcastic, then I can tell you myself that you're observation is going to have little effect before the lynch occurs.

Ah, I just realized we misunderstood each other again. In my semi-sarcastic request to Spadille, I meant that if Spadille was right about me being scum, then my supposed partner would of course kill him in the night because he's "far to dangerous".

Oh, as for your reason for voting me: The "trying to shed the votes". I'll explain:

izakthegoomba was just typing like he was taunting me or something. My mindset was, "If Spadille and I are just townies arguing with each other IMAGONNA BE SO MAD if it's really izak dancing in front of us here."

As for DDD. That wasn't trying to shed his vote. It was more of a promise that if Spadille gets lynched and flipped town I would avenge him with my vote on DDD. However, I think izak is even more likely than him at the moment.

Okay, now what do you think of izak now, by the way? I'm referencing this quote that you made to izak:

And two: You better fucking bring a new, WIFOMless argument to the table when you get back.

[Cobblerfone]

Just, a minor vote-count error I spotted: DDD has a vote on Spadille. I don't have a vote on anyone at the moment.

[Cobblerfone]

Oy, now I know I'm far from the best at organizing my thoughts, but I really don't know what to make of this:

For a fact that I called that so I know what other town thinks, a.k.a to generate discussion, and that the reasons behind them was nothing but assumptions.

Did you mean something like this?:

In fact, I called that pairing so that I would know what the other townies think. You know, to generate discussion, and to bring to light that the reasons behind them was nothing but assumptions.

I'm still not voting. I have to wait until Spadille can express himself more clearly, because I took the literal meaning of a player's posts that contradicted each other and used them to my advantage to get him lynched in that game I finished. Now that doesn't mean DDD or Heliman is scum, because the townies also voted him for the same reason, but it's not the best case in the world when the player has a hard time expressing themself. But if he fails to express himself clearly again, I won't wait for him to do so.

Perhaps I can summarise the case against him. Feel free to correct anything wrong, guys:

1. Targeting bad players. You say your reason for voting Quilford and I are different. Will you post your reasons for voting each of us and explain them?

2. A contradiction in the meaning of your posts. We cannot completely trust that you are telling the truth when you said that you meant something different. If you could quote the posts in question and explain them, perhaps we can see if it's a cover up or the truth.

3. "Wallposting the town to death": I think DDD's talking about your multiple page-long "battles" with both Quilford and me.

4. "Mudslinging": You're more or less OMGUSing at the evidence provided against you. Except, you haven't voted. Basically, the same thing I did to you. And maybe Quilford, until he got convinced you were town.

Also, of course don't ignore the specific posts against you. This is just to help you see where (I think) we're coming from. Okay, it's less me and more DDD and Heliman, because I only voted you for reason number one, more or less.

[Cobblerfone]

Close, but we're really talking about how Spaidlle tried to lessen the importance of DDD's argument against him by trying to make DDD look scummy.

So, a chainsaw defense, then?

Also, the summarising was so that Spadille could respond in a catergorized way. You know, so he can look at the evidence against him and sort it into sections so it's less confusing. It might help with the wall posts. Or at least that's the idea.

[Cobblerfone]

Competetiveness is the number of posts/quantity. Being competetive is being an active poster and not lurking.

The funny thing is, even this "definition" doesn't match up. A person can post a lot and not be competitive.

The fact is that he is sure that it is really what I mean and calls me scum for it when indeed my meaning was the 2nd sentence. It is putting words in my mouth.

No, he spotted a contradiction between the two sentences. Then he explained why you might've contradicted yourself and why it was scummy.

The fact is that he is sure that it is really what I mean...

Why wouldn't he?

...and calls me scum for it when indeed my meaning was the 2nd sentence.

That's the point of finding contradictions.

[Cobblerfone]

I'm not sure if we're going to get much more out of this. I'd love to be proven wrong, though. So:

VOTE: Spadille

I'm going to be V/LA through Saturday.

[Cobblerfone]

I'm back. And I have to say, after having to read 20 pages for an off-site game with 24 hour phases, I was a bit worried to come here. But there are only two more pages. AND they aren't redundant.

Well, I'm glad to see that Spadille and Heliman haven't tennis matched. That was my biggest fear and why I wanted to prevent stagnation by putting Spadille at L-1. Plus, I'm actually satisfied by his answers. I don't know if they'll do the deal for everyone else, since he seemed to adress my versions of the points against him, but with these two things:

UNVOTE: Spadille

And maybe it's just 'cause it's a Saturday evening where I am, but everything seems to have mellowed out. Ah... this is a good feeling for a thread.

DDD, I just meant I though Cobblerfone was looking scummier than ever IMO. Why did everyone just drop it?

That's not addressing his post. How have I been "scummier than ever"? There's a thing in writing called "Show. Don't tell." You need to say why you think I'm scummy, not just that I appear scummy to you. And if you think I'm scummy, why unvote me without voting for someone else?

[Cobblerfone]

A kid hears the word 'Fuck' and asks his mother what it means, his mother tells him that it means 'love'. So bearing this meaning into his heart, he hopped to the playground and told the cutest girl "Fuck you. You mean everything to me." What do you think the kid really meant if you are the girl?

I don't know what point you're trying to make here. But this is pretty much the exact situation we're in. Except you're the little boy and DDD is the little girl in this allegory. At least, I think.

[Cobblerfone]

I mentioned that Trendall had been active lurking, and you jumped on me for it. You said outright that everyone should lynch me for it. I see no explanation other than you being a desperate scum.

I didn't say to lynch you for that alone. It was a straw that broke the camel's back. It was because you seemed to be going "Oh look lurker! Suspicious!" IDK. I still don't see why you'd unvote me then.

[Cobblerfone]

Page 1: Not a lot to comment on here. Not a fan of Cobblerfone or Trendall, Cobb for explaining his "random" vote and for lying, and Trendall for flipflopping on his vote with no explanation whatsoever.

Did I lie? Can you please point out where? Also, Trendall explained it in his first post. izak didn't have an avatar. He voted him. izak got an avatar. He unvoted. I find it funny that you're not a fan of him considering... you know.

Page 3: Cobb gets even worse here. Picking a fight with Spad over the role PM thing just looks like he's trying to find something to argue over, but not in the pro-town way. Voting for someone else while he still has his main suspicion elsewhere is not useful at all.

It wasn't really an argument, I just wanted to clarify whether or not they were allowed to speak during N-0. Heck, now that you've brought it up I realize it might even be evidence for both Spadille and mine's innocence. Granted it's not so good because I pointed it out, but eh.

@izak: That's not really all that good enough of a reason. I mean, if you're not going to vote for someone else what's the point? But whatever.

I want to reread something before I vote. I'll tell you what when I come back.

[Cobblerfone]

Okay I wanted to reread the part where Heliman voted on Spadille. It's not a sudden change like I thought it might've been. I'm glad I reread it before basing a vote on it or bringing it up.

VOTE: izakthegoomba

[Cobblerfone]

@izak: ISO is when you read a person's post in isolation. I had to look up the article on the wiki to find the easiest way. Go to the bottom of the page. Do you see the thing that says, "Display posts by user:"? Select the user you want to see the posts of and click go.

[Cobblerfone]

izak. If you are town don't beg for yourself to be lynched.

If you are mafia

, I guess go ahead and hammer yourself then because asking for yourself to be lynched isn't making you look very protown at all.

I mean, it seemed kind of dramatic or theatric and I respect that, but never

ask

to be lynched even sarcastically or in jest.

...unless you're ever a jester, I guess. Or not. IDK.

[Cobblerfone]

Spadille, izak can't exactly hammer himself if he only has two votes.

I'll gladly join your wagon though, it depends on how bv answers. Which reminds me: where did I lie, bv? I seriously want to know.

[Cobblerfone]

@Spadille: You were at L-3 by the time bv310 responded. So your point about finding the easiest lynch isn't exactly correct unless bv was counting on DDD going back to you once he posted. All your other points are fine. Except, I don't know if tunnel-vision is really a scumtell unless they're tunneling a partner.

However, from my previous experience of being scum, I do kind of see that he's tunneling in on a group. I did that in my finished game. I came up with a group of suspects all in the same catergory and then acted as though proving one person to be innocent in the group strengthened another's suspicion. The results were mixed in that it didn't really sway the others, but it did work as an extra reason for voting one of those people when the other two were proven innocent. It might be a nulltell, or newbscum strategy, and it's not exactly the same so bv really needs to post.

[Cobblerfone]

I was thinking it through the night that it was some combination of jmurph3, izak, and Spadille. So we still probably would've lost if DDD hadn't killed me.

And in my submitted guess to the mod I had put jmurph3 and Heliman as a team because of Heliman's slip on day 3.

jmurph3 v/laing through it all really messed the town up. Plus Spadille and I.

[Cobblerfone]

Hey! My towntell was legit! Awesome! I guess I have to rely on actual tells/voting-data for finding scum though.

[Cobblerfone]

Actually I guess scumtells didn't really seem to apply all that much.

I guess.