Open 302: JUNGLE REPUB nope game over! Party time!
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2911
I especially appreciate any Mafia game that begins with flavor text about stoned pixies and game playing Unicorns being bombed and inflicted with radiation poisoning."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Ok so I’m bored waiting for the confirmations so I’m going to provide some friendly advice to the Seer –
If you run across the situation where someone fake-claims Seer docounter-claim immediately unless you have a confirmed guilty read to go along with it or we are in a LYLO situation.NOT
1. If said fake-claimer is an Evil Sheep they will be killed at Night.
2. If said fake-claimer is a Wolf and live through the Night you can choose to counter-claim the next day if you get a guilty result that Night.
3. If said fake-claimer is Town they get need to be stoned to death and will be killed at Night anyway.
Vanilla Town shouldfake-claim Seer to survive. Do so and receive an internet wedgie.NEVER"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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I haven't mulled over specifics but probably even if it was all 'Not Werewolf' results. That said there is some level of difficulty in determining exactly when said day is since there are two discrete anti-Town factions.Wickedestjr wrote:I think it would also be a good idea for the seer to counterclaim if it is the day before LyLo as well. Am I wrong?"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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@MOD- you might want to be on the look-out for a possible replacement for toffee. His / her one post on site was the sign-up for this game on April 9th."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Read the role PMs again carefully and clearly.neil1113 wrote:Yeah I think I've got it now Caboose. I just made the mistake not looking this up. Like I didn't realize that nobody has a kill either!
The Werewolves have Night Kill.
The Evil Sheep do not.
You've been on site for almost 8 months now. Your newb-pass has expired."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Caboose the bolded portion of the Mod's statements is relevant to this discussion.Umbrage wrote:This game will begin when all players have confirmed. To confirm, please post the code in your role PM in this thread. NOTE: codes are random and have no relation to role or alignment."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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I had one.Wickedst wrote:Your point?
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So you think the best move for Neil (8 months on MS) in an Open game is to specifically pretend he doesn’t understand the roles as a Gambit. When the result is you immediately jumping on him that exact thing.Twisted wrote:first thing I'd do as mafia would be to get the knowledge of my own faction wrong"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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1. Do you have sufficent reason to think (meta-wise) that neil’s thought processes closely mirror your own?Twisted wrote:I never said it would be the best thing to do, but it sure would be what I'd do
2. Thank you for giving me a reason to lynch you if I ever see you make a mistake on ‘facts’ about an open game set-up in regards to the Mafia faction(s).
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To get a reaction to help me form an opinion on his alignment. What other reason would you suspect?Wicked wrote:@MoI - And what was it?
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Is it 1 o’clock yet?"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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@Deity, cjdrum, caboose and Regfan– Come join the party!!!!
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At this point? No. I have limited experience with Twisted but it does give me a general feel for his play. Nothing I see so far out of the ordinary with Town Twisted.Wicked wrote:Do you suspect Twistedspoon at all?
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No problem. I can’t wait to see your reaction when actual game content in Wall form starts appearing.Lucky wrote:I hate you all for making me come back to a topic with 52 posts in it already.
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What’s the scum hunting purpose in this question? Niel explicitly said that pushing (aka pressuring) Empking might produce more content. He was fully aware he was wagoning.Sloth wrote:Neil, do you find votes like that scummy? Were you aware that you're wagoning?"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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That was a typo I missed. My mistake.Neil wrote:Ahem... Neil
That said if you are going to get bent out of shape with having your name spelled wrong on occasion here on MS you are probably in for lots of frustration.
I’m not the Mod but I’ll answer – referencing any ongoing game of any sorts including mentioning who you are playing with are forbidden site-wide.Neil wrote:*sigh*. I have not talked about on-going games. I simply mentioned I was IN on-going games. There is no rule where saying that you are participating in other games.
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1. Can you demonstrate with quotes where Neil shows ‘fear’ of your vote?Empking wrote:Everyone: What alignment is of afraid 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them?
2. Are you attempting to say that his posting of your style of play is discrediting? I find it a rather accurate portrayal of your playstyle. He doesn’t say it makes you scum, BTW. He said that pressuring you to provide more than unsupported votes and throw-away one liners is a good plan. And it seems to be working.
3. Please identify what you case on Neil is.
So he can’t be possibly telling the truth because you call him scum? Scumtastic thought process there.Empking wrote:Ah, the well known fact that scum are always honest about their intent Could you get any scummier?"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Well perhaps you need to work on thinking harder.Empking wrote:1. His vote and his discrediting of me have only one motive I can think of.
See I can throw pointless barbed statements out just like you. I try to refrain from doing it since it isn't Pro-Town behavior.
So you are admitting that Neil’s analysis of your playstyle is accurate. Good. Explain again how that discredits you. Are you saying that your playstyle is inherently scummy?Empking wrote:2. When did I ever said it wasn't the truth? If I started saying "Don't listen to Magna he has an 80% scum win rate and has very low town rate" would you just say "That's not discrediting that'sd the truth!"
If you were to say something like that I’d simply ask you to back up your statement with reasons including how it has any bearing on the role PM I received and how my Town win rate is very low.
No, it’s not. He clearly stated that pressuring you to provide more in-depth content was his goal. Nice attempt to deflect with Wiki-tells, BTW.Empking wrote:2b. "He doesn’t say it makes you scum, BTW." This is an absurd misrepresentation of the point.
1. Unless you can back up with specific quotes on your assertion you are just throwing around rhetoric.Empking wrote:3. His posting comes from a scum mindset and only a scum mindset. Plus there's your post I'm quoting that maskes you look like buddies.
2. Oh so now we are buddies. I’ll challenge you to provide the solid scum motivation for either sets of scum (2 Werewolfs or 3 Evil Sheep) to vote together and work together so obviously on Page 3. This is just more smearing from you. Noted.
So I’m free to assume you are lying about everything you are saying since scum lie? Ok, just wanted to know the standard you are working with.Empking wrote:So are you just wasting my time or are you saying we should we just take everyone's word as fact?
This is the sort of broad based statement that is completely invalid. Of course scum are going to lie. The goal of Mafia (you know the game we are playing) is to assess whether certain individuals a lying based on other contextual clues and logic. All you are doing is suffering from Confirmation Bias – “I know he’s scum so he’s obviously lying”.
Very typical soft attack. I notice you go out of your way to avoid directly saying I am scummy. Instead you use loaded words like ‘curious’ and ‘weird’.Empking wrote:Curious coincidence that your posting is a mixture of defending neil and attacking neil's attacker. Wierd.
Unwilling to commit to outright saying I am scum with him?
Also you seem to be saying that I only have interest in you due to this exchange. Given I was the first vote (and a serious one at that) for you that’s hardly the case.
I like where my vote is at."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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See and it is things like this that make me happy about my vote.Empking wrote: What bull. I can see why MOI has such a high scum win rate. Pretty clever plan of you two.
You've directly seen me work as scum. LMP's Mini Normal game not that long ago. Where you saw me do exactly the opposite of what you are accusing me of here.
In that game I distanced from Xdaa (my known partner) and more or less ignored DGB (who I suspected was the traitor but couldn't be sure).
Yet you are ignoring that game to spin some sort of obv-buddying partnership angle here.
If anything I'd be open to the possibility that you and Neil are hard distancing each other (he's only voting you to pressure you to perform and you are more than happy to suddenly switch to me even though you've stated he can only be posting from a scum perspective) and you are trying to tie me to him in the case he eventually flips.
I'll mark that down in my notes. Good effort if that is actually the case."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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I’d really appreciate if someone other than Empking and Neil could post and give their thoughts. Anyone …. Anyone … Bueller?
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The two factions changes the game in only one realistic way –Twisted wrote:if this game had only one scum faction I'd be tempted to say one of neil/empking/magna has to be scum after these interactions
however it's more complicated since there's 2
hmmm
All scum factions have reason to actively and accurately scum-hunt. Especially the Evil Sheep since they don’t have a Nightkill and can be picked off by the Werewolves.
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@Empking re 74– Nice to see you went to the trouble to snip from my post only the portion that relates to you and Neil power distancing and you attempting to link him to me. Since you normally just quote en-masse I’ll assume that my theory might have a some legs.
If he wants to effectively scum-hunt in a Pro-Town manner he should be posting his thoughts. I’m not sure what the second part of your question refers to. It looks like you just tacked it on to create a false dilemma situation. Care to elaborate?Empking wrote:MOI: Does neil have to post everything he thinks or is he avoiding the question? (Watch how he either refuses to answer the question or makes it ridiculously non-commital.)
Also noted is the pre-emptive assertion you added in quotes. There you are effectively arguing my response is scummy before you have ever seen it. Scumtastic work. Town has no reason to pre-suppose what any response will look like. Scum, on the other hand, want to frame the discussion in a manner that best suits their agenda."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:My hypothesis was that you were scum. I had an experiment to test that. I made my prediction of what my experiment would yield public so that when my prediction came true it would carry more weight. Please explain why that is scummy?
I’ve clearly explained why it is scummy – if you were honestly scum-hunting you would have no interest in staging a reaction to the response that has yet to happen. It’s not rocket science. Scum are the only alignment that have an reason to 'pre-argue' anything.
Empking wrote:Ok, I asked "Why did you say X?" He "answer" was "X is true because Y". This means that either
1. He has to say everything which is true OR 2. He refused to answer the question.
I then asked you which one you thought it was? And you refused to answer?
Your questions frankly make no sense and have not context. I guess I am going to not be answering when you’ve created something that is not understandable as formed.
Empking wrote:Too many [expletive] scum!
Oh how quaint … you are resorting to AtE the same Wiki-tell you’ve been throwing around as scummy. Nice.
Empking wrote:MOI's vote on me was random?
Nope. 100% real for your immediate vote on Neil for reasons that I already outlined was horrible in my pre-game discussion with Twistedspoon.
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@Diety re 99– So you are happy voting for Empking simply because he has votes but haven’t bothered to actually read?
Scumtastic.
Each post after that gets worse and worse? Never played a Town player?
How were you ‘confronting or questioning” Empking with your vote at 99?
Consider yourself sloted firmly in scum at this point.
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@HezLucky– so nothing to say at all regarding the entire pages of Empking versus Neil posting?
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Caboose wrote:How can you call someone down for a soft-attack after what you said to me in the pre-game?
Quite easily. Empking’s soft attacks came in the midst of me questioning him and pointing out his logical failures. You I was purely reaction fishing. Context is everything.
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CJdrum wrote:Now, I know it's page 6, but I haven't really posted yet... What do we think of the MafiaSheep? It's not like they can kill us... But it's hard to differentiate between Werewolf-tell and Mafia-tell. I think we should only kill Mafia if we don't have a Werewolf in hand.
Um, whut? I don’t even ….
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Wicked wrote:1.) He expressed interest in a neil RVS bandwagon in the pre-game, but when the game began he random voted HezLucky instead.
So let me get your logic straight here …
1. Twisted in pre-game expressed a desire to RVS neil for his fake-post about not understanding certain Mafia aspects.
2. You and I explained to him that was a bad tactic for scum to take pre-game
3. Twisted eventually grudgingly agrees.
4. Twisted votes someone else RVS when the game opens.
5. You vote him for it.
That’s what you are basing your point 1 on?
AlsoWicked– why do think of Empking’s vote for Neil given that it ostensibly had the same reason as Twisted’s early suspicion (see post 28 for context)?"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:I thinkthe latter days of thiswere the scum team defending one another: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15577
I’ve bolded the portion that shows where you specifically undermine your own argument. Have any where it happened right out of RVS on page 4 of a Mini / other game with less than 14 players?
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Wicked wrote:Any particular reason why you didn't ask Sloth or zMuffinMan this question?
Yes, because I need more information directly from Hez to help form a read on his alignment. I don’t at this point feel the need to get that same bit of information from the others.
Wicked wrote:Also, Magna, what do you think of cjdrum?
If you didn’t pick up on my comment to Cj above I think he’s probably VI-Town. I’ll see more as we go on but I can’t see Cj as either Evil Sheep or Werewolf saying what he said. Of course more input will help refine my feeling or make me move him into Stupid Scum (likely Evil Sheep) category.
Wicked wrote:He doesn't say in either of these posts that he isn't going to vote Neil for an RVS wagon. He also doesn't give any reason for changing his mind when he random votes either.
I’ll disagree. Although he doesn’t explicitly say he agrees the manner in which he backed off gradually said to me he thought it wasn’t worth pursuing.
The question to you – you agree that suspecting Neil on that basis was not good as it was a bad scum-tell. Or at least I thought you did. We tell Twisted this. When the game starts he doesn’t RVS Neil on that basis. You find that scummy?
Wicked wrote:I don't think Empking ever gave the reason for his original vote. If he did, can you quote it please? If that was why he voted Neil, I don't find it suspicious.
His only ‘explanation’ to date is post 28 where he says “Remind me to vote Neil”. In context that was right after the “Neil is scum for faking lack on knowledge” conversation started.
If you don’t find his vote on Neil suspect for reasons that are clearly no scum-tells you and I definitely aren’t going to see eye to eye on this issue.
@Wicked– What doyouthink of CJ?
--"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:MOI: 1. Why is pretending to answer a question while in fact refusing to answer a question not a scum tell?
2. Why is interacting with another playerexactlyas scumbuddies would interact not a scum tell? (Also we know this isn't confirmation bias because I made my prediction of what would happen before MOI responded.)
Empking - Why is asking loaded, leading, or completely incomprehensible questions supposed to be scum-hunting?
Oh the second part is rich. You say I am interacting EXACTLY with Neil as scum-buddies would. Yet you can't find cases to support that's actually how it works. And you tried to 'handwave' away the evidence I provided from LMP's game regarding how I deal with buddies.
Yes, you are still scum. Happy with my vote."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:
I'll ask you straight up. Why would scum choose to play to their scum meta?
Because that's how meta works. It is effective. It certainly fooled you easily then. Why exactly would I depart from a winning strategy? DERP
Then you answer the following - why would scum choose to play as blatantly as you have claimed?
Answer - they wouldn't.
But don't let common sense get in the way of your scum agenda.
Which one are you? Evil Sheep or Werewolf?"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:Hey, MOI I think I asked you some reasonable questions. Mind answering them k thanx
Nope. You are scum. Not bothering to waste my time answering fluff. Feel free to try and claim I'm scum for that.
Empking wrote:Because when people meta you, they'll be able to point out that you're playing to your scum meta.
1. It allows you to lead the town and protect your buddy.
2. The meta doesn't punish you for doing it for reason 1.
Which bit don't you agree with?
Lulz. So players don't play to a scum meta because they will be called out for it. But they do play EXACTLY as you claim scum would so they can be called out on it. But at the same time they can effectively lead Town despite being obv-scum.
Keep scumming it up Emp."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Oh forgot to add from the Empking playbooks -
Empking is scum for not answering my question (specifically about which scum he is). No matter how stupid the question is if you don't answer it you are scum...
Ok, I'm going to stop being over the top with Emp. VIs tend to pull this reaction from me."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:Everybody: I want you to look at the second quote in MOI's post and then look at my actual post. He took at the quote I was responding to in order to change my point completely.
(My point was about why he'd opaquely defend and work with neil. He tried to pretend it was about him refusing to take concrete stances about neil's individuals actions (AKA exactly how scum would act.)
MOI: Why would town misquote somebody like that?
Removing my original quotes is hardly 'misquoting' you. Quote pyramiding is pointless waste of space.
I was responding to your two points at once. Where you are taking contradictory stances. And explaining exactly who they are contradictory."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:
Essentially you took out a paragraph to make two points about two different things (meta VS defending scum buddies0 look lioke one thing.
The only content removed from your quote was 100% my words. Again, you consider them two different points. I don't.
Empking wrote:Playing to your meta is punished by the current meta. Defending your scumbuddy isn't. Therefore you won't do one but will do the other. What's contradictory about those two stances?
1. No playing to your meta is not punished. Proof please?
2. Your argument is that I'm defending my buddy because it would be effective due to my meta. Yet you call it behavior that is obviously how buddies behave and say we are scum together. If you are so easily calling it obv-scum behavior how is it effective? That's directly contradictory.
Furthermore you haven't been able to satisfy that defending Neil is either -
A. Something that buddies due immediately Day 1 (you keep blowing this off and pretending its fact when you aren't providing clear examples)
B. That I'm even defending Neil. Pro-Tip - calling your craptastic play craptastic is just that.
Again - I'm going to stop responding to your continual spam. You don't provide substance to your statements.
You are using the Fate style of play - continually repeating stuff over and over and hoping that posting more than everyone else will make your bad arguments acceptable."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:Scum getting attacked early doesn't happen early. Two men scum teams don't happen that often. I read very slowly. But this was thethird game I looked at and Hoopla in this game defended Haylen from a random vote.
So notice he is now placing lots of qualifies. But let's examine.
1. He says "Two men scum teams don't happend often". Ummm, how does he call us Werewolves partners and not Evil Sheep partners? Perhaps because he knows we aren't part of the Three Man scum team? Yup.
2. His third game he reference began over a year ago (March 2010). Why is that his THIRD stop? Wouldn't a quick glance through recent ended games have been quicker than finding a year old thread?
Confirm Vote - Empking"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:What are you saying here? That in ten minutes I looked at all the games in the last year, found that one and then pretended it was my third?
You claimed it was your third game examined as you said RIGHT HERE –
Empking wrote:Scum getting attacked early doesn't happen early. Two men scum teams don't happen that often. I read very slowly. But this wasthethird game I looked atand Hoopla in this game defended Haylen from a random vote.
I’ve bolded where you directly claim it was the third game you looked at.
That you don’t seem to know what you are saying moment to moment is astonishing. Somehow you want to make me look like I’m making up things to smear you when in reality that is exactly what you said.
How is that the third game you looked at? Please explain how you magically were drawn to that game which isn't in the first three in the Closed file was the third one you chose to review.
Then explain how a Lovers game - where immediate death for both partners happens when one is lynched - is a good comparison to this game.
Empking wrote:No I know you're werewolves because the opaque defending suggests that. Plus the timid way TS and KD are playing suggests they're Mafia and all four of you can't be mafia.
Thank you for more or less ruling out Twisted or KD ( I assume you meant Diety and just mixed the letters up) as likely partners."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:Yes and you think I'm scummy for that. What do you think I did? That in ten minutes I looked at all the games in the last year, found that one and then pretended it was my third?
Dodge dodge dodge. Once again you don’t answer the question about how that game was the third one you looked at. Anyone with sense can see where it is in the Closed game list. No-where near the top.
Yet you keep trying to deflect by saying “Did I lie about it”.
Weren't you the one just banging the drum that not answering questions is a scum-tell?
Dodge dodge dodge. Because you can’t answer why you chose that game in any manner that makes sense.
Or why more recent closed games don’t show it. Where are the MANY other cases that you have been saying are obvious scum play?
Empking wrote:Because losing a werewolf day one is pretty much the death knell for werewolves in this game. Just like in that game!
This is self-evident stretching to justify your bad tactical choice."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:1. Why do you want to know that?
2. I looked at the two recent games and noticed that the person attacked was always town. I then thought to myself: What open game has a large porportion of scum? And then decided to search for Lover*
1. Because it shows your motivations.
2. Aha, the light is shed. You looked at recent games and found they didn’t support your premise. So you went to the one game style where linked Mafians have an overwhelming motive to defend themselves … because they automatically die when one is lynched.
And now I think you are lying about the whole thing. I just ran a search of Central Park using Lover* as the criteria and only looked for Titles. 214 isn’t the first game that appears on that search … the more recently run 267 is.
Summary – I think you actively hunted a game that bears no resemblance to this game to prop up your argument that is clearly bad. And when called on it have made up some garbled explanation.
Empking wrote:Oh so you do think I'm lying? I read every game in the last year in no more than ten minutes?
Of course not. I just explained exactly what you did.
Empking wrote:Mind providing some evidence of that?
Evidence that your theory of Partner defending in the first 4 pages is complete crap? I’ve got all I need in your inability to provide evidence to support your position. You had the burden of proof and you’ve failed.
I'm done as I think it is pretty clear that you are scum who overreacted to early pressure and have continued to dig your hole deeper and deeper. I've let you suck me in again. VIs drive me nuts."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting thatdishonestlytrying to get another player lynched is a town tell?
No significant time now.
I'll address the many flailing points of Empking sometime in the next day or so. But I wanted to quickly say the following -
The bolded pisses me off to no end and I'm not going to let you fucking keep repeating it.
I removed my own text from those quotes. Nothing you said was altered in any way.
Yet you keep repeating that I'm DISHONEST for doing so. Hoping that a scumtastic Appeal to Repetition will make people forget after time that your point wasn't valid for the get-go.
Empking's play is classic Fate-scum style right here - keep repeating things over and over and keep asking people to justify the same points that have been already clearly made.
He needs to hang.
I'll put together a consice case in my next post."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Ok … I’m not making a Empking official case. At least right now. After reviewing my thoughts and the thread I think his play speaks for itself.
DK is 100% VI. A review of his posting leaves no doubt about this. Whether he is incompetent Sheep or Evil Sheep or Werewolf remains to be seen. I will not object to a lynch of him if we can’t find another scummy target but feel it is more policy than anything else.
I want Empking hung. I’m fairly confident he’s very likely Evil Sheep based on the resistance I’m seeing on multiple fronts to moving him beyond L-2. That said I’m also considering the following three players –
Neil– Having read a sufficent amount of his posts after the game started I’m not believing his “Ooops, didn’t know about the set-up” pre-game persona. He’s clearly capable of complex discourse and responses. That clearly doesn’t jibe with what was presented pre-game.
Twisted– playing inconsistent with his Town play from my direct experience.
Wicked– First vote was Empking wanting to ‘bandwagon’. He immediately jumps off the wagon the second Empking starts posting his special brand of insanity and votes Twisted for what I find suspect reasons. He then continues to spar with Empking but makes no move towards pressuring him via vote. My guts says Empking partner. Has experience with the Set-up and distancing from Partners (Actor Theme Mafia).
@Caboose, CJDrum, Hez, and Sloth– You need to post at least two possible scum suspects beyond who has your vote in your next post please!
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Empking wrote:You misquote people to shorten your post? Surely it'd be shorter to not do a quote to begin with?
Once again – the only thing I removed WAS MY OWN WORDS. Absolutely nothing was removed that you said. I can’t misquote you if I only removed words YOU DIDN’T SAY.
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Muffin wrote:er...
Where did I say I think Empking is scummy? I think his case is bad because it's based on pedantry and misinterpretation. I think he's losing an argument against stronger players. I don't think that necessarily makes him scum.
So do you find him scummy or do you have a Town read on him? I’d like some clarity on this issue.
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Twisted wrote:to side with my gut I'd be voting kabuto or neil; both of who's flip I would be extremely interested in
VOTE: kabuto
I guess I'll have to justify this soon. Gut probably doesn't suffice alone, 11 pages in. You deserve more from me, I'll admit
Soon means now. Your input this game is unacceptable."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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neil1113 wrote:
I don't know what to say? It's your opinion.. I really didn't know. I wasn't playing ignorant.
I'm really not asking you to say anything. You are correct - its a gut feeling I have in seeing that disconnect. You can't really defend against it. I'm just giving me reads and thoughts out for review.
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Empking wrote:Would you agree that I said everything in this post?
Stop asking questions that have already been answered. Dear god if you aren't scum you are really bad at this game.
I gave my thoughts when. You've been on some Sherp-Led-Trip-Up-The-Mountain path focusing on me removing my own words as opposed to actually looking at what was said. Go read my response. And then hang.I ORIGINALLY RESPONDED"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Caboose’s catchup post at 286 is horrible.
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Twisted wrote:I think empking is less likely to be scum than kabuto right now :/
You know what all the cool kidz are doing? Giving reasons!
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Wicked wrote:??? It seems odd that you would say he is pretty clearly scum, but at the same time a VI. What makes you think that Empking is a VI in this game?
I don’t see your confusion.
The VI label has nothing to do with alignment. You don’t have to be Town to be over-all incompetent.
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Regfan wrote:If you don't mind, can you elaborate. I'm reading his play as over overzealous and paranoid town rather than anything else.
Muffin wrote:Why are you so sure he's scum? Could you try making a short concise post with the reasons you think he's scum? There's no need to quote everything he's ever done, just give me a synopsis. I understand you think he's bad, but why do you think his bad play is scummy?
Quick Summary on why I think Empking is scum (and likely Evil Sheep)–
His reaction to pressure is suspect. He immediately tries to frame the (and this is conjecture but I think it holds water) weakest player on his early bandwagon as scum (Neil).
His scum-hunting consists of mostly applying, in a generally inaccurate manner, Wiktells (AtE, Misrep, Strawman) to those who apply pressure to him. He doesn’t look at all outside those who have found him to be scummy. Even paranoid Town is going to find suspects aside from those not pressing them.
His playstyle in regards to defense is classic Fate-style scum (yes, to some degree a meta argument) – drown the thread in posts, continually repeat questions about the same issue after they have been answered, and generally attempt to demonize those who attack you.
Focused strongly on semantics and wordplay as opposed to scum-motivation for play.
Slip regarding ‘2 scum’ when discussing why I must be a Werewolf.
General meta gut based on games where I have observed Empking as Town.
That’s the quick summary. I can address individual issue as necessary.
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DK wrote:HezLucky is scum, his large post. That is really Anti-Town, he is against quite a few people (suspects), andthere can't be that many scum. I want him lynched as well as Empking.
I’ve bolded the portion that shows DK is 100% certified VI. Clearly in a game with 5 scum suspecting many people isn’t a bad thing.
If come deadline a compromise lynch on DK forms I will join it. His play is so bad I can’t fathom being certain whether it is coming from Town or either Faction.
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Hez wrote:#8 MagnaofIllusion - almost as if he's telling the Seer what to do so that he can adjust his scum strategy
appropriately.
Elaborate. I’d like you to explain what possible strategy as scum I could have that would warrant giving good advice to the Seer.
Hez wrote:Magna #146 / Wicked #147 - Given my slight suspicion of Sloth (not mentioned here) and stronger suspicion of MuffinMan,
if I were in Magna's shoes i would definitely have asked them something as well. Maybe Magna is not paying attention
to one of his buddies on purpose?
Hmmm … so the scum-tell here is that I’m not Hez. Noted.
Hez wrote:Magna #169 - the second point. "Why is it his THIRD stop through a random game?" Give me a fucking break. That's not
evidence. These last few pages have made you look awful.
Funny. I think at this point you are just looking for things you think you can pass off as scum-tells.
Clearly the whole debate about his method of game selection showed that
1. He wasn’t honestly hunting but trying to find any game he could, even if it doesn’t make an apples to apples comparison.
2. He presented said game as his third in a contrived manner to boost his position, which failed when he was required to disclose why he looked at that game 3rd.
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CJdrum wrote:Pretty much everyone has had a run-in with Empking, so I'd say (currently) the people who haven't, or haven't very much are probably scum-worthy.
Ok … I want you to commit to who these players are. Give me two names who have interacted with him the least."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:
Secondly, I have beren at L-2 for yonks. That seems to illustrate that there are a lot of scum on my wagon (so many that the remaining scum(s) don't want to be the ones to put me on L-1). So its only logical that my main suspects would be the individuals on my wagon.
Actually quite the opposite. You hanging at L-2 means that there is very likely a subset of players (and under my theory 2 since I think you are Evil Sheep) who do not want you lynched. That explains, to my mind, the difficultly in moving you farther up the list.
So he's free to feel that OMGUSing isn't a scum-telll when he does it but is clearly indicative of scum when he claims Neil did it. Inconsistently applied standards? You are soaking in it!
Empking wrote:
This post also seems to have mistaken me for Fate (where else would the meta come into it?). I find this unlikely.
If you had reading comprehension skills beyond that of the average fallen log you would understand that I am ascribing a scummy style of defense (made unfortunately famous by Fate) to your play."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:You're using the fact that I'm mainly looking at the people on my bandwagon as a reason I'm scum. You're ignoring the fact that as town my wagon is populated by scum because you're calling me scum. On this point your reasoning for thinking I'm scum is because I'm scum. Its not a serious worthy point.
It’s just one factor. I’m not ‘ignoring the fact that you are Town’ because it isn’t a fact. Ask each player here and 100% will tell you they are Town.
Your play reads as scummy. Your premise here is that your wagon is ‘filled with scum’. There are 5 players on that wagon. Unless 100% of scum are on your wagon that means at least one scum isn’t there, if not more. I'll not even get into the ludicrous thought process whereby significant amounts of 'scum' in the game conspire to wagon you. Yet you haven’t looked outside that group that ‘suspects’ to find scum. Your thought process is not Town, IMO.
Empking wrote:When did I call neiel scum for performing the act known as OMGUS?
Empking ISO 3 wrote: Everyone: What alignment is of afraid 1 (one) vote that they wagon the largest wagon and try and discredit the person voting them?
From beginning of the game. You are clearly inferring that Neil is scummy for jumping on your wagon based on your sole vote. That’s OMGUS. You just avoided actually using the direct phrase.
Empking wrote:So how is it a meta point, again?
It’s a general meta point about a particular site popular reaction of scum to pressure.
This is a perfect example of why I think he’s scum. He’s not even bothering to say my assertions about his play aren’t accurate. Instead he first tries to deflect by saying “He mistook me for Fate” and then wants to quibble about whether it is meta or not."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Waiting on responses from Muffin, Reg (knowing he's V/LA) and CJ now.
Continuing to joust with Empking when I've made my thoughts know is Anti-Town."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:
This is complete scummy bull. You were saying that I checked 100s of games in 10 minutes and that I was lying about checking only three. Surely you'd be eager to take the chance to prove that I was lying about only checking three games in my 10 minutes (By doing it in a significantly quicker time?)
Your point would be downright disproved if it took you along time.
For the record note how Empking absolutely focuses on anything but the points about his 'search' that matter.
1. That he cherry picked a Lovers game (which has clearly a completely different dynamic than normal Mafia games).
2. That he first evaded explaining how he arrived at his 'evidence' until I forced him to.
3. That 1 game doesn't demonstrate his original theory - that scum teammates often strongly defend each other very early Day 1.
In summary - do the right thing - Hang Empking!"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:
Am I? I thought you were in agreement with him on that point. See that's the problem when you dredge up old posts.
And I never said that you checked 100s of games anyway. I said you were scum who tried to slide a cherry-picked game off as if you found it in the logical course of a search.
Empking - Never one to let the facts get in the way of his assertions!"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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@MOD – I’ll be V/LA for my normal weekend family duties til Monday morning.
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Muffin wrote:Also, he has a point in saying that (supposing he is town) his wagon is most likely populated by scum. If he's town, the chances of him getting to L-2 just from townie votes is pretty low.
No-one is saying there aren’t possible a scum or two on his wagon currently. I disagree completely that it must be populated by scum. I'd wager that more Town are there than scum.
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@ALL PLAYERS NOT EMPKING –
I want you do to a little thought exercise involving Empking. He’s been at L-2 for a significant amount of time (since April 29th, so a full week). Here is his current wagon (per Mod’s last VC. I don’t think anyone has moved off since Wednesday which is when we had this list)
Empking (5) - MagnaofIllusion, neil1113, DeityKabuto, cjdrum, HezLucky
I want you to consider the following scenario –
If Empking is Town he’s been at L-2 for seven days. I think it is safe to say by his play if he was Town scum would have moved to at least put him at L-1 or finish his lynch. Both scum factions have it in their interest to lynch those who aren’t them. Empking’s play hasn’t been of a standard where anyone is likely to feel they will come under fire for pushing him to hang.
If you disagree with the above we can discuss but I would like you to consider the following.
If Empking is Town then there MUST be a significant amount of the 5 scum on his wagon. At least 4. Otherwise the push to lynch him from both scum factions would have come by now.
Do you believe that at least 4 of the 5 players on that wagon are Scum? Furthermore do you think it likely that a significant portion of the scum would pile together on one wagon of a Townie in getting him to L-2?
If Empking is scum then the stalling of his wagon at L-2 makes more logical sense. The number of players who actively would want to hang him immediately drops from 5 to at most 3 (and likely 2 based on my thoughts). Additionally he has either 1 or 2 other players who have a vested interest in not voting him.
This makes the reason that his wagon has stalled out much more understandable, IMO.
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Ok, now after that thought exercise I would place the following players as Empking’s most likely partners. If he flips scum (which I feel he will) you definitely want to look in this pool –
Wicked – Look at his ISO. It is absolutely filled with point after point where he is arguing with Empking. It’s the dominant part of his ISO. Yet he shows absolutely no movement to actually consider voting him. In fact he ‘RVS wagonned’ Emp but was very quick to jump off when Empking started to get heat.
Sloth - Zero interactions with Empking, but when questioned says he’d support an Empking lynch in ISO 6.
Caboose – Spends a paragraph in ISO 3 in what looks to be coaching Empking about his play. In the same ISO attacks the biggest VI in the game (yes, even bigger than Empking) DK and never looks back. Later states he’s ‘unenthused’ about the Empking wagon but provides no reasoning.
Those are my top picks for possible partners for Emp."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:I'm the Seer. As MOI said my wagon is populated by scum. Can we lynch neil now?
If he's fake-claiming real Seer do NOT counter-claim."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Sloth wrote:Why can't you be a wolf again?
The thinking is as such on his claim -
He is either the real Seer or fake-claiming scum.
If he is the real Seer the Werewolves can't risk him getting a guilty scan off and kill him at Night.
If he is a fake-claiming Evil Sheep the Werewolves can't really risk the chance he is the real Seer when the odds of them randomly hitting the real Seer at 1/9 (remaining players not Empking or Wolves).
If he is a fake-claiming Werewolf he lives through the Night and must be lynched Tommorow."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:
(Supposedly a made a slip where I became adamant that MOI was a wolf rather than a Sheep.At any rate, if MOI was town then he'd unvote me.)
I've bolded the part that is funny.
1. Why I am I the only one who isn't Town for not unvoting you? Hmmmm?
2. If you are the real Seer you really have little to fear about being quicklynched. You know that right?
No Town player is going to hammer you now. That means the only players who would risk quicklynching you are the Werewolves. Evil Sheep have no reason to do so as the Seer is zero threat to them and makes a tempting NK target instead of them. You have repeatedly stated that you believe Neil and I are Werewolf partners. We are both on the wagon. Under you premise that you've been floating you can't be quicklynched.
So letting you sit at L-1 is hardly a danger to you unless you are fake-claiming. Then you risk either the Werewolves or real Seer hammering you.
My vote will stay for the moment until everyone who hasn't voted for you has posted."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Empking wrote:I'm glad you didn't unvote me. That doesn't change the fact that it neatly makes it clear that you're scum because your actions (not unvoting me) don't fit with your words (calling me an evil sheep.)
Lulz. If I think you are fake-claiming Seer as Evil sheep then the logical course of action is to let either the real Seer or a gutsy Werewolf hammer you. And I do think you are.
Once every has had a chance to see your claim and our discussion and not hammered then I will unvote."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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UNVOTE: Empking
VOTE: TwistedSpoon
Althought Empking is likely fake-claiming scum he isn't going to be hung today.
So I'll move to the next solid bet.
This is clearly not Town Twisted I am seeing."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Twisted wrote:the difference?
I believe only one game we have played previously together, assuming you haven't meta'd myself
and my playstyle as confirmed town is rather different
Even just looking at Day 1 (where you were not confirmed) there are strong differences between your play under pressure and when scum-hunting for two factions (in Donner Party) and your play in this game.
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Hez - you playstyle is interesting. Large walls explaining his feelings with little sign of actually identifying motivations.
Hez wrote:- Magna #309 - where he is STILL focusing on "Empking could not have searched three games". Look, a town would be like "this point is moot I have
ten other points agaisnt you that are all highly relevant" whereas a scum would be looking for some new points, even if he has to invent them, to
make it seem like Empking is overwhelming scum (as opposed to highly likely scum). Greedy scum. (Still note: Empking is scum. I don't care for
Empking's alignment in determining MoI's)
Clearly I have no other points against Empking at all
Hez wrote:- Magna #319 - Magna is scumhunting. I will give him that. Based on the setup of this game, it's irrelevant. But the point on Wicked is definitely
noted. ... but he finds Caboose suspicious. Ugh Ugh Ugh.
Clear indication that you are not reading for content. That was a list of players who make sense as Empking’s partners if he flips Evil Sheep. It was not a ‘Top Suspect’ list.
But why shouldn’t Caboose be suspicious? You feel lurking is a Town tell?
Hez wrote:Your discrediting of my argument "he's just looking for things that could be scumtells" is noted. You don't need to be an excellent debater to find scum. I don't believe you to be town though. You kill people at night. (Or maybe you are evil sheep) How's that?
Rather marginal. You do get credit for going with more than rhetoric (“He’s scum because I say he is”). Either you are mediocre Town you doesn’t understand the concept of scum motivation or scum of some flavor reaching.
Further game-play will tell.
Hez wrote:FOS: All those on Empking's wagon after the Seer claim. This is an open game, folks. You don't lynch the only claimed power role on Day One. (FYI, I still believe Empking is scum, but this is BASIC MAFIA THEORY PEOPLE).
This is the kind of grandstanding I expect to see from scum in a game like this. Scum-points to you.
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Reg wrote:Can you link me to the Empkingtown game where you believe he played differently?
My direct game with Empking as Town was LMP’s KGB Mini Normal Mafia.
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Deity wrote:MangaofIllusion (Your tactic was to act like you were on Empking's wagon until you and your Mafia scum could find a plan to get him off the hook, now Regfan has done it)
Thanks DK. I needed a good laugh this morning.
Let me ask – should I not find the timing of this sudden suspicion interesting in light of Hezlucky’s vote?
You hammer on a player you didn’t list as Scum in your last post is also noted."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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MOD – I’ll be V/LA from today at 4pm EST til Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.
I’ll be using what time I have to re-read the thread via cell because Empking’s flip as the actual Seer was unexpected to me. I need to re-assess my reads.
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Cjdrum wrote:What the frakking frak was the frakking spam wall for, then?
Bloody hell. Bloo-dy hell.
So with the Seer gone, we've only got VTs against the Wolves and Mafia?
Bloody hell. Gonna have to do some ISOing.
This screams a variation on the classic “Oh, the Doc is dead, things are going to be hard” slip. See DarlaBlueEyes in THIS GAME as the most recent example I have."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
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Ok, that re-read was rather painful.
I think Neil, Wicked, Regfan and Muffin all had interactions and reasoning surrounding Empking that they aren’t on the top of my suspects lists.
In looking at ISOs Cjdrum and Sloth’s votes for Emp look the worst.
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@LMP– I’d like to see your revised reads list after you factor in the Night flip.
@Hez– I second the question : Please explain your Town read on the Caboose slot.
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DK at 413 wrote:I wanted Empking dead, he turned Pro-townie, but he wasn't helping much of the town at all, imho TwistedSpoon looked very innocent. I will be looking into who started TwistedSpoon's case and cast my vote on them.
DK at 402 yesterday wrote:I hate the fact that nobody wants Empking lynched anymore, but since Twistedspoon is at L-1, I guess this is what the town wants.
Unvote
Vote TwistedSpoon
This should at least provide us with more information which ever way he flips.
DK at 420 wrote:Vote
Wickedestjr
From reading the past few pages, Wickedestjr was the main driver of TwistedSpoon's case, explain yourself, please. You didn't have "strong" evidence for actually wanting him lynched.
1. DK hammered Twisted, a player he stated in 413 he had a Town read on. We were not at deadline when this happened.
2. DK wants to find the players who started the wagon and lynch them. He doesn’t say he wants to find the players with the worst votes on the wagon.
3. The dreaded “will give us information” reasoning for the hammer is suspect. Especially since he attacked Wicked for not having “strong evidence” to vote Twisted.
VOTE: DeityKabuto
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CJ would be me second vote if I had one. I agree with Regfan’s assessment of CJ at 419. Furthermore Cj’s absolute unwillingness to commit to reads of other potential scum candidates is in line with scum-motivated play.
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Wicked wrote:@MagnaofIllusion - Why have you been ignoring my posts in response/directed to you?
If you can point me to post numbers where you feel I am ignoring your post and you expect response from me please let do so and I’d be happy to respond."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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DeityKabuto wrote:MagnaofIllusion, that made my feel a bit more scummy about you, your logic for voting me is a bit confusing, so please explain again. :/
Aha the threat - "Suspecting me made you seem more scummy". Noted.
It's quite simple logic.
You hammered TwistedSpoon. In that hammer post you say "This is what Town wants" as your explanation for your vote. We were far from deadline.
First thing after night you state that "Whoever started the vote on Twisted is scummy because I had a Town read on him"
Town players don't hammer Townreads outside of absolute deadline to avoid a No-lynch and twice try and shift the blame elsewhere (saying it is Town's will in your hammer post and then trying to say those who started the wagon were scum).
Furthermore you distanced yourself strongly from every bad vote (Empking and Twisted) on Day 1 today."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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cjdrum wrote:
LMP: If Sloth is obvscum with zMuffinMan as obvpartner, why is zMM stuck directly in the middle?
I'm not LMP but I'll take this one.
This game has 5 remaining scum. Muffin happens to be the fifth person on his depth chart. That would be consistent with him being scum.
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Yeah, after that post where CJ jumps on the Sloth 'bandwagon' and ignores actually committing to reads he's certified scum."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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I’ve reviewed Hez from a meta standpoint (driven by Muffin’s meta accusations and Muffin’s back and forth with Regfan). He doesn’t have much activity on the current site and a search of the archives was not very fruitful. I have something I’m keeping my eye on but I want to see more posts from him today.
I’ve also reviewed Sloth’s posting history. He has 20 posts on site since the thread opened on Friday. Not a single one in this game.
Hez on the other hand hasn’t made a post on sight since he last posted here.
One of these behaviors is highly suspect compared to the other. And may earn my vote.
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DK wrote:Me saying that I wasn't for the Twistedspoon vote isn't scummy at all, a scum wouldn't think like that, I simply voted him before the "deadline" (which I had ignored) because I trust the towns and that was what the majority wants, either way we still have information.
It’s one thing to say you think TS was Town.
It’s another to actively hammer said person because ‘Town wanted it’.
The first is reasonable. The second is scummy as hell.
DK wrote:Unlike me, who stated my actions in Day 1, a scum would want to go by unnoticed or convincingly which means they would never state what they'd done / their though process in the past. I highly doubt that is the "mindset" of a scum. Right now, I am getting sort of a Town read from you, but I don't trust much of anyone as of what recently happened in Day 1, but you are trying to scum hunt, but try not to limit your options to I alone, and make any drastic decisions, their are plenty of others.
The first part of this is pure WIFOM – no scum would do what I have done. The second half of this looks like appeasement (I am getting a sort of Town read from you) and attempting distraction (try not to limit your options to I alone).
Not impressive.
Never the less my pressure on you has yielded what I was interested in seeing from you currently.
UNVOTE: DK
VOTE: CJDrum
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Neil wrote:DK, why do you not trust me? What have I done that made me seem to have broken your trust?
What in the hell is this?
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Regfan wrote:1. Fairly sure Cjdrum just town-slipped here, if I've read this right he still doesn't understand the mechanics of the setup - The werewolves are the one with the kill, not the mafia.
If you believe this to be credible what is your opinion on Neil’s mix-ups pre-game?"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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General Comments–
I think the relative difficulty in gathering any sort of wagon on DK despite is scummy play at the start of today is a sign he’s scum of some sort. Were he Town VI I think there would be much more of a push to run him up. I can understand a few Town having reservations but there is no way with 5 anti-Town players it should be this difficult.
Wicked and Muffin seem to be locked in some death-spiral style head to head at the moment.
I very much agree with Wicked's 491 also.
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DK wrote:I laugh at how their are several scum trying to push suspicious on me,
Who are the scum pushing suspicions on you? I want direct names aside from Neil who your vote is already on.
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Hez wrote:Take from that what you may, he was my highest point total before but he's very VI so I'm still super-hesitant.
At what level of direct scummy play do you stop giving the “VI” pass out? I’m curious to know how much higher DK would have to go on your ‘scum-o-meter’ before he actually could be voted.
Hez wrote:Further, he didn't like the Empking wagon and unvoted DK. I like the DK unvote because of my own personal hesitation that DK might be town VI, rather than obvscum. DK and Empking are both very easy lynches, and he just didn't go for either of them
So if his DK vote was not RVS I’m curious how he gets points for unvoting as he ‘didn’t go’ for DK. A serious vote (as shown in 132) indicates he did feel DK was scummy and was pushing for his lynch.
At this juncture I’m not going to argue that LMP is likely Town since he’s a fairly easy read in that department IMO. I just want you to justify that logic.
Hez wrote:- "thinks like Hez" re: Muffin and MoI, who are my top two targets right now. Though I'm sure you knew that my meta actually disproves your argument and not the other way around -_-. You desperately want to be right. But you aren't. I'm not in the other scumgroup, buddy. I'm straight up town.
Interested in why you lump me in to this argument when I’ve said I wanted to see more from you based on my meta read and haven't said you are directly scummy. I’d like an idea.
Hez wrote:Feeling is a funny thing. As you say, you can use it to justify anything
Absolutely. It’s what you’ve used to justify most of your posts against me.
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LMP wrote:I agree with pretty much all of 491. I think Sloth is a better lynch though.
LMP wrote:Can we lynch it now?
Let’s discuss this LMP. I’m not adverse to the position that Sloth is scum but I want to see why you think he’s a better lynch than CJ.
Both have been avoiding the thread.
CJ’s last post was Tuesday where he hopped on Sloth for posting elsewhere on site and not posting here. Since then he has 2 full pages of posts in his “See user’s posts” list all over site – mostly in Mish-Mash but also in Newbie games and MD. He’s basically doing the same behavior that he voted sloth for but on a much large scale.
Sloth’ last post here was over a week ago. He has 1 “See user’s post” list since then and was posting in other game. However this is the only game he requested replacement in.
Add in that Cj was actively scummy yesterday (specifically avoiding giving reads) and today (his “Oops, Seer is dead” woe is me Tell) and I can’t see going after Sloth first.
If you disagree tell me why.
Regardless I’ll make you a deal – support the CJ wagon today and I’ll back you on Sloth tomorrow. Sound good?"I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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I will be reviewing the thread now that we have a confirmed Mafian down and LMP's death.
@Havingfitz - Now would be a good time to get your thoughts into the thread. I very much want to see your opinions today."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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CJDrum ISO Review –
ISO 1 wrote:Now, I know it's page 6, but I haven't really posted yet... What do we think of the MafiaSheep? It's not like they can kill us... But it's hard to differentiate between Werewolf-tell and Mafia-tell. I think we should only kill Mafia if we don't have a Werewolf in hand.
In review this was a clear tell by CJ.
People CJ voted for–
Day1 – Empking and Twisted
Day2 – Sloth and himself.
Still living players with any significant interactions coming from CJDrum –
Wicked and Neil
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Not much to see there. What I can take from this –
Given CJ’s play I’m inclinded to thing his partners will be found in the players he was more or less ignoring completely. Of the remaining alive that would be Hez, Regfan, DK, and Muffin. I’ll be ISOing those players to see who best fits partners.
Regarding his Sloth Vote –
I’m going to dig at this a little bit because
1. I don’t think it is bussing
2. It will probably give more insight into CJ’s partners.
CJ’s vote for Sloth comes at 465. The previous official Vote-Count is as follows –
Mod at 459 wrote:Vote Count:
HezLucky (3) - LynchMePls, zMuffinMan, Regfan
DeityKabuto (2) - MagnaofIllusion, neil1113
MagnaofIllusion (1) - HezLucky
neil1113 (1) - DeityKabuto
Not Voting: cjdrum, Sloth, Wickedestjr.
Following this LMP moves the vote from Hez to Sloth at 464. Thus the wagons were
Hez (2) – Muffin and Regfan
DK (2) – MoI and Neil
MoI (1) – Hez
Neil (1) – DK
Sloth (1) – LMP
4 minutes after LMP (confirmed Town) votes for Sloth and CJdrum immediately elevates it in a 2 way tie with Hez and DK.
The lack of push on both Hez and DK means to me both are more likely to be partners with him. And it looks like he simply selected the easiest target (Sloth) to go after."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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VOTE: Havingfitz
Now that he’s actually committed to reads in thread in his ‘catch-up’ post I feel there is information to work with.
I’ll address that monstrosity of a catch-up post later in an independent post. For now LMP’s strong suspicion of Sloth is a great jumping off point for my vote today. Especially since CJdrum's play against your slot before he was under pressure means you are very likely NOT Evil Sheep.
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DK wrote:Mafia: ZMuffinman and Cjdrum
I’m going to go ahead and label this as an off-shoot of my Newbie game “Player messing up the number of Mafia tell”. DK specifically has listed only 2 Evil Sheep including the now deceased CJ.
Thanks for confirming my suspicion in that regard DK.
DK wrote:There are not much towns left, and I am one of the few townies alive, by this post, I will most likely be the next victim of the Werewolf, and I think we already lost, so as of now, I would have the Mafia people claim, and they should side with Townies to at least get rid of the werewolves.
1. Not much Town left? 8 players are alive – 4 Town and 4 scum of two flavors.
2. Appeal to Fear (we’ve already lost) noted.
3. This pretty much is poorly designed grandstanding meant to grab “Town” cred. It is quite clear that the Evil Sheep aren’t going to out and claim.
I’d be strongly pushing your wagon today if I didn’t think you were likely Evil Sheep.
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Neil wrote:I'm wondering why LynchMePlz was night killed though. I could speculate and say it's because others believed him to be scum too, and so the Wolves were hoping to kill a Mafia member. But to be honest, that then makes me look bad because I was pressing him so hard as scum before the day ended.
Interesting that you would choose to post this when you specifically say it makes you look bad.
I, however, am more than happy to speculate on why LMP was dead. I certainly anticipate the cries of WIFOM … there is a solid grain of truth to that argument.
But in this set-up (known roles) there is one strong reason for the Werewolves to kill anyone after the Seer is dead – they are the greatest threat them. With that in mind I would guess that the bottom of LMP’s scum list is very likely to contain a Wolf.
That list was –
TOWN
MagnaofIllusion
Regfan
neil1113
DeityKabuto
zMuffinMan
Wickedestjr
cjdrum
HezLucky
Sloth
SCUM
Furthermore this makes me encourage to look at your ISO in more detail. Especially since my gut says you probably avoided Sloth like a plague both days.
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Muffin wrote:It's also entirely possible I'm completely off in my Wicked read, but I'm very sure Hez is scum of some sort at this point.
At this stage that’s not good enough. Which faction do you think Hez is more likely to be in?
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Hez wrote:I'm here. Want to lynch Magna or Muffin today. Don't really care which but it'll be hard to convince me otherwise. Going to do a reread though I'm not sure how useful that will be. Maybe I'll ISO.
Glad to see that the flip of CJ as Evil Sheep (who avoided mentioning you like you had the cooties, BTW) doesn’t make you look at your reads with new eyes.
That’s sarcasm. But given I think you are very likely Evil Sheep I’d rather cast about for Werewolves for lynching today.
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Regfan wrote:Though, to be honest I'm unsure if it's optimal to aim for werewolves or mafia today, MoI I'd like your thoughts on this.
I believe the optimal play for today is lynching a Werewolf. The Evil Sheep only remain a threat to them from the standpoint of victory due to numbers. Eliminating another Evil Sheep more or less eliminates that threat to the Wolves."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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Hez ISO–
RVS vote for Wicked.
ISO 2 – Votes DK for having a ‘stupid’ statement.
ISO 3 – First content wall post … does not mention DK, CJdrum, Wicked, Muffin, or Regfan or Having’s slots.
ISO 6 – Second large content post –
Recomments on DK’s stupid post at 99. Says DK’s 118 is ‘retarded’ and calls him his ‘new number 2’. Yet agrees with DK’s read on Caboose (saying 132 was a Good Post).
Says CJ’s 133 raised a good point.
Given my slight suspicion of Sloth (not mentioned here) and stronger suspicion of MuffinMan, if I were in Magna's shoes i would definitely have asked them something as well. Maybe Magna is not paying attention to one of his buddies on purpose?
1. Hez at the point of this comment had not mentioned a single point about Sloth. Why is there suspicion?
2. Attempting to draw immediate links between players. Behavior which continues consistently Day 1 before any flips happen.
No other mentions of CJ drum in this ISO at all. Note that he slots DK as his second place suspect but gives a ‘reason’ to not vote him – “Esp given I am afraid that DK might be the biggest noob ever.”
ISO 7 – Votes DK as his highest vote getter after Empking claims.
ISO 8 – Yet another large wall o content –
CJDrum #274 makes it seem to me like he isn't bothering to READ the game. it's possible he hasn't foudn enough time for it, thanks to Empking's
spam. It's also possible he's scum adn has no motivation to scumhunt. This will be cleared up in future days, I hope. {no points}
So he identifies behavior that is suspect, but specifically goes out of his way not to ding CJdrum for it (since it will be cleared up in future days).
Gets ‘a good feeling’ from DK’s 296 while simultaneously saying it comes from a “huge VI”.
CJDrum's posts are useless to me now, but are goign to be interesting once we get some flips. I am going to refrain from trying to read him
until that time.
Specifically fence-sitting on CJ. His posts are ‘useless’ but he doesn’t want to commit to a read on him until flips happen.
In this post he unvotes DK (still his number 1 actual viable suspect per points) to vote me with “DK could be a VI” as an excuse.
This is the last post of Day 1
ISO 9 – Opens the day with DK still as his Top read via his ‘points system’ but specifically avoids once again voting for him because he is a VI. Slots CJ right in the middle of the pack saying “he has a hard time getting a read on him”
ISO 11 –
Corrects CJ on his ‘mix-up’ of Evil Sheep and Werewolves at 430. Given we know CJ flipped Evil Sheep this screams “Hey look at my partner Town-telling right here!!!!”
Dings DK’s 439 as scummy voting.
Still doesn’t vote for DK who remains at the top of his ‘list’ despite specifically calling 439 a scummy post that distinguishes from VI behavior.
ISO 13 – “Why do I have three vote?” Nervousness in face of pressure.
(FTR: I don't inherently oppose a Drum lynch but there are at least 3 people I would rather lynch first - Magna, Muffin and Sloth)
Poorly managed distancing on CJ. He doesn’t oppose a CJ lynch even though in his last Points list CJ is in the “all others – 50/100” category? That makes no sense from an honest Town perspective. There are 6 other players above CJ on his list. Town Hez should not agree to a slot that falls well below the "alive number of scum" line on his 'calculator'.
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TL DR Summary– Hez’s behavior towards CJ is highly indicative of partnership. No strong reads on the slot. Soft distancing but keeps a strong focus on others.
His DK read supports my thougthts as well – DK has been riding the top or second slotof his “points computer” but he’s carefully managed to avoid actually voting for him based on weak “VI” defense. Not he specifically didn’t touch the DK wagon Day 2 when it was the Top competing wagon.
I’m happy sloting Hez and DK as the remaining Evil Sheep after this re-read. It will help me narrow down my focus on the Werewolves today."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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Hez wrote:Magna is trying to speculate on why LMP is dead, which is fine. However, it's more than likely that he killed LMP himself, looked at his scum list
and thought "there aer some easy lynches I can push on the scum side", then tried to justify LMP's death by stating that LMP "knew something special"
This is not AT ALL how a town person thinks
Actually it is very much how a Town person thinks. I know, I have my role PM that says Town.
Pro-Tip – even if you were Town (which I’m fairly certain you aren’t) you don’t define the Town thought process by your personal playstyle. Sorry to burst your bubble Tex.
Hez wrote:The reason LMP is dead is because he is no longer an easy lynch. I distinctly remember being asked WHY I HAD A TOWN READ ON CABOOSE and then I distinctly remember from yesterday him (MoI) asking me for an explanation of the Caboose town-read.
He stopped being an easy lynch, in your terms, the minute LMP replaced in. Nice try to frame the argument. Fail, but nice try.
Hez wrote:So what happened? After I explained it, he decided Caboose was no longer really lynchable, stopped attacking him altogether, and killed Caboose/LMP in an attempt to make his lynching of Sloth easier. He even tried to setup today's lynch with his towards LMP. Then killed him so he would not be committed to Sloth incase a better wagon came up.
This signals that you are scum.
1. You assert I was attacking Caboose. Please quote me where I was. Asking you about your reads (in looking for your partners) isn’t that.
2. You assert I was looking for a way to make Having an easy lynch yet leave the door open for backing off if a better one appeared. Yet I’m the first vote on Having today while other wagons (Neil and yourself) were available. So my actual actions refute your weakly crafted theory.
Hez wrote:I felt Sloth was scum yesterday, but havingfitz is a definite townread right now, and {Muffin - your scum-ass can meta this from Draft Mafia} I've been in situations before where teh replacement is far more town than the initial player, and it's usually because they ARE town.
Inconsistency and flip-flopping ahoy!!!
Yesterday sloth was scummy as hell in your eyes for replacing out as he did. You specifically said you would rather lynch him than CJ (your partner). Yet today when Having actually posts content that agrees with you (calling you Town and me scum) suddenly you 180. Self-serving waffling for the Evil Sheep loss!
Hez wrote:I must be partners with them right? Yes. Town buddies. Though it won't help very much.
Lulz. Nice attempt to deflect the clear connections as opposed to addressing why they are wrong. Caught Evil Sheep waiting to be sheared is caught.
I’d rather lynch a Werewolf today so you are lucky (get it, it’s a pun on your name) on that account.
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Wicked wrote:Did you have anything to say in response to 356? I had issue with your plan for handling the seer.
Not really. I don’t particularly care if you disagreed with my plan. In the end as the real Seer he got killed as I predicted. Your sky is falling approach to his theoretically living thorugh the night was just that. Werewolves can’t risk the at worst 20% chance (2 Wolves out of 10 non Seer alive players) one of them gets scanned. 356 was an exercise if overthinking.
Day 2 it was a moot point since Empking was dead so rehashing your paranioa wasn’t worth it, IMO.
Let me ask you – you specifically asked me why I was ignoring your QUESTIONS, plural. You’ve only provide one question so far that I ‘dodged’. Why the emphasis that inferred I ‘ignored’ you more than once?
Wicked wrote:Explain please.
Care to provide some context? Or at least post numbers? I’m not going to search my own ISO for two sentances."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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Regfan wrote:You're going to have to explain why you believe DK is an Evil Sheep rather than a werewolf becasuse I believe the opposite.
I think my posts have summarized why I believe he is Evil Sheep.
1. Interactions (or lack thereof) with CJDrum.
2. CJ’s choice to vote Sloth / Havingfitz over either Hez or DK Day 2.
3. DK’s Day 2 open of Day play and his slip (yes, my personal tell but I’m not going to ignore it) on the number of Evil Sheep.
4. DK’s insistence that Evil Sheep would only appear at the last vote. I see complete ham-handed “I’m not Evil Sheep” in those posts.
If you disagree that’s acceptable … that’s the nature of Mafia.
Regfan wrote:That would make sense, the only thing that worries me is that if we do indeed manage to lynch a werewolf today they have less incentive to shoot towards the Evil Sheep as leaving them alive would leave more suspects for town to lynch towards.
In the short term yes but as long as we have the possible threat to Werewolves of losing an endgame due to Evil Sheep the remaining wolf would have to be congizent of trying to shoot / lynch them tomorrow Night if not tonight.
Also call me biased but I feel pretty strongly about my Evil Sheep reads so I’d much rather take the killing faction down a peg.
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Havingfitz wrote:On the monstrosity catch-up post...I tend to get comments along that line whenever I do one. That was the main reason I Spoiler'ed it in here. It's my brief thoughts on posts that catch my attention as I catch up...like it or not.
I probably should have used a different word than Monstrosity, something with less negative connotation. I have no objections to large catch-up posts as it gives me plenty of material to work with.
Havingfitz wrote:I look forward to what I hope is a more detailed reason than someone else's suspicions...which iirc revolved around Sloth's lurking. Which I will not be guilty of.
1. The suspicion isn’t that he was lurking. Let’s be clear. It’s that he was actively posting in other games while not posting here. Much like CJDrum, but on a lesser scale.
2. Your level of activity does not simply wipe away Sloth’s play. You do know that right? I can give you numerous examples of scum under suspicion who replaced out for a more active player and was given pass that resulted in a Town loss."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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Response to Having’s replace in post –
Specific responses to his suspicion of me:
Havingfitz wrote:8 - MOI...odd opening remarks. Provides super helpful seer claim advice (unsolicited help is suspect IMO)
Havingfitz wrote:46 - MOI seems to have a lot of modly or helpful posts. Suspicion towards him increasing....
Havingfitz wrote:58 - MOI is the game facilitator. Not a good thing IMO. Answers question for neil despite the fact neil had already answered.
An ongoing trend in your suspicions. Please explain why providing solid advice to my team is scummy.
Havingfitz wrote:17 - MOI claims to have not mulled over the specifics. So posting for the heck of it? W/O thinking your odvice over thoroughly????
Poor logic. Not having pored over every possible scenario (including whether a claim at the Day before MYLO would be optimal) does not mean the general advice wasn’t well thought out. It was clearly intended for a Day 1 claim scenario.
Havingfitz wrote: 68 - MOI wallposting with Emp. Claim his RV vote on Emp is not random...though it was the first legit vote of the game which I would assume was random. If it wasn't random....why provide absolutely no reasoning with it (that I can see)?
No, it wasn’t random. Your assumption is invalid. Emp's voted for Neil based on a pre-game post I clearly indicated to Twisted wasn't inherenly scummy pre-game. Yet Emp persisted. Thus my vote for him.
Havingfitz wrote:73 - MOI pulls out his meta to his defense. To paraphrase him, he's not playing in this game like he did in another game he was scum in. Well thats good to know...so do you always play the same way as scum MOI?
No, but I was pointing out that quite clearly Empking had direct experience very recently about how I played as scum and he was ignoring it to fling around some theory about how scum interact.
Havingfitz wrote:158 - MOI outright refusing to answer question from EMP. Scummy IMO.
Not answering questions that have been answered multiple time is scummy? Noted.
Havingfitz wrote:263 - MOI declares DK 100% VI and is willing to lynch him if necessary...though it seems policy-like.
Incorrect. I’m all for lynching a scummy player who happens to be a VI (which has NO alignment connotations at all).
Havingfitz wrote:319 - MOI is keying on the same VC I want to look over. I agree with most of what MOI says about this VC (specifically regarding Emp) but he only gives analyzes potential scum on the basis of Emp flipping scum. He does state most of the 5 on a potential Emp town wagon would likely be scum (I was thinking at least three scum but I still need to look it over).
Why should I have analysed Empking’s wagon from the standpoint of him being Town before his flip when I had a scum read on him?
This is bad “after the fact” attempt.
Havingfitz wrote:412 - MOI didn't expect Emp to flip seer.....my my.
Of course I didn’t expect him to flip Seer. He played scummy. Are you attempting to say it that’s a scum-tell?
Havingfitz wrote:444 - MOI votes my scum frontrunner DK. Bus? Chainsawing? Different alignments? Perhaps one/both of them is town? (unlikely)
Other than to say that DK and I are both scum this point says nothing concrete about our affiliation (Sheep versus Werewolf). IIoA.
Havingfitz wrote:499 - MOI setting up the next day's lynch.
Absolute mis-rep.
Havingfitz wrote:466 - MOI calling cjscum out for cj's post towards me. With cj's flip in mind...I doubt MOI is mafia. Perhaps werewolf....?
520 - And we have a self hammer. Not sure what to make of cj's comments to MOI. It's enough to make me look away from MOI but at the same time makes me wonder if that was the intent.
These two end of post comments are strikingly inconsistent.
In 466 you say my push means I am very doubtfully Mafia.
In 520 you say that you doubt CJ’s intent in his self-hammer post. What intent that indicates I am scum can you come up with that shows CJ operating on inside information that doesn’t stem from me being his partner, and thus Mafia.
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Other non-MoI comments-
Havingfitz wrote:322 - Great...Sloth jumps aboard the Emp train :/
325 - Great...Sloth makes a really WTF??? post. >:|
“Attacking the predecessor” scum-tell – Ding!
Havingfitz wrote:356 - Wckdjr gives rationale for not lynching Emp D2. Makes sense. Could also be coming from a werewolf?
Elaborate on why it makes sense."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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Hez’s565is an exercise in Appealing to Repetition (if I keep saying MoI is Werewolf without backing it up logically maybe people will believe it), rhetoric, ironic double standards (whining about having his character discredited while making a large wall doing just that to someone else), and lazy song parody writing. Ok the last part isn’t a scum-tell but is true.
Hez doesn’t feel he can win a debate on the merits of the argument so he’s retreated to this territory.
Don’t worry Hez … once we take down a Wolf I’ll come and put your malicious Evil Sheep self out of your misery.
But while you are spinning your wheels -
Who is Evil Sheep? Commit to a position!
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Neil’s561is pure AtE. DK’s case was rather comical Day 2 but his continuing reaction in saying “I’m made because no-one is making a real case on me” falls in the “Caught for the wrong reasons” category of scum-tell.
I’m going to have to re-read his ISO and sloth / havingfitz and decide if he makes a better possible Wolf than havingfitz.
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havingfitz wrote:I see little if any Sloth focus on your part on D2 yet despite other suspicions you’ve got material/evidence/ etc. on others, you are fine with pursuing the Sloth slot’s lynch today. That is scummy IMO.
Wait, whut? It’s scummy to for me to suspect you when I feel you are a Werewolf and lynching the Evil Sheep (Hez and DK, IMO) as opposed to a Werewolf isn’t in Town’s best interest?
As to a focus on your slot Day 2 – sorry , I’m allowed to follow my suspicions wherever they lead.
havingfitz wrote:You do know that people posting more in one thread vs another does not preclude them from being town? You do know that right? If anything I usually think of it as people are bored with the game they are ignoring…and IMO it is easier to be bored when you are town then when you are scum.
I do know it doesn’t preclude them from being Town. However it is OVERWHELMINGLY more likely to come from Scum than Town when said player is under suspicion (which Sloth was from LMP). Spinning it as ‘bored Townie’ is WIFOM.
I disagree that Sloth wasn’t under suspicion. You ignore the fact that before the shift to CJdrum I had particularly pointed out the Sloth’s behavior was suspect.
In response to your numbers–
1. Yep, you may find it a scum-tell. IMO at worst a Null-Tell since it is in a Townie’s best interest to direct Town in the direction he sees as effective scum-hunting.
2. If you can show me the scum motivations in the original post please do so. What do scum specifically gain? Curious to see what possible motivation you can come up with other than the ‘you are trying to look Townie’ angle which again we disagree on.
3. It wasn’t a random vote. You can disagree with me about whether you think it is nor not but if you do you are wrong. I’m the one who cast the vote and knows my motivations.
4. I’d already answer Empking’s questions on multiple occasions throughout Day 1. By the time of the post in question he was again rehashing ground covered by myself and others.
7. There is a huge world of difference between “Hmmm, I was wrong about Empking I need to re-read” and “Damn, we’re screwed as helpless Town now that the Seer is dead”.
9. Then you don’t know what ‘Setting up lynches’ is. Town in a scum rich environment should have multiple suspicions. Setting up lynches is saying “Hez is obv-scum if CJdrum flips Town for x,y,z” before a flip happens.
10. It is inconsistent because you are trying to classify CJ’d parting WIFOM as something that you should be suspicious of me for. The only way that you should be suspicous of me for CJ’s statement is if you think we are partners and he was spewing WIFOM trying possibly distance from me with that statement. Yet you clearly think he and I could not be partners. What inside information is he possibly working from to make that post in your scenario? He can’t know my alignment other than that I’m not Evil Sheep.
11. I’ll cover this later when I break down my ISO of your slot. Suffice it say it is a pretty strong scum tell in my mind when a player replaces in and says, effectively, “The person playing in this slot before was a moron”. It allows the replacing scum to free themselves from reads of the slot already and go in whatever direction of mislynching they wish.
12. No, I don’t agree. It’s pointless ‘Sky is Falling’ material. After the lynch for the day we had two living werewolves in 11 living players. Empking had at absolute worst a 2/10 (20%) chance of randomly scanning a Werewolf. It’s not a good risk in a mutli-scum game (where there is another faction with strong motivation to hunt you down) to risk losing 50% of your team to a scan result. Even taking that risk you allow the Seer a chance to get a clear on someone as Werewolf that may be important down the line. Again, as I properly predicted Empking died."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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@Hezlucky – WHO ARE THE EVIL SHEEP?Are you afraid to commit to a position? Are you uncomfortable being 'taken out of your zone' when called on to actually scum-hunt?
571is quite quaint. He’s ‘taking me out of my comfort zone’. More sterling examples of mud-slinging and empty rhetoric.
Hez wrote:I will continue this unorthodox style of attack on Magna.
If by unorthodox you mean contrived and empty of actual scum motivation then we agree. That is what you are doing.
Hez wrote:Seriously, this is what you guys are looking for, and I have spent the last two-three days SHOWING YOU WHO THE WEREWOLVES ARE. Magna and Muffin.
Keep Appealing to Repetition Hez … it might work (no, it will not but I wanted to give you a glimmer of hope)."I am a leaf on the wind ... watch how I soar!"
Pretty much Geriatric game restricted at this point ... unless there are players I REALLY want to play with.-
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MagnaofIllusion has been killed Night 1
- has been killed Night 1
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