New York 131: Tricycle Mafia (Day 5)

[jmurph3]

First and foremost,

V/LA until Sunday

. I'm graduating from university this Saturday.

[jmurph3]

Back from V/LA and catching up. We appear to be out of RVS, which is not altogether unexpected, but means that I now have to pay double attention to make a real vote

Between reading everything in this game and my other game, expect me to have a post up sometime this evening.

[jmurph3]

Ok, so there's not been a huge amount posted yet, quality-wise (which can only be expected this soon into the game), but here's my thoughts/observations thus far (apologies in advance for the wall):

Both heads usually ask a few questions at the start of games for our own personal reference, so we'll do so again here...

What time zone are you in?

What's your experience level? Especially good to know in case of alts and whatnot.

About how active will you be in this game?

1) I fluctuate between Eastern and Central timezones.

2) This will be my...15th game? I think? But my first large normal (I normally stick with newbie games), so it will probably take me a bit to get used to a new style of gameplay.

3) I plan on posting about once a day. Somedays may be more, and some days I may not be able to post at all.

PS: Meant to say earlier, congratulations, jmurph. I get my master's degree in a couple of weeks myself. Graduation is pretty sweet.

Thanks! It's a bit strange to realize I actually have a college degree, but at least I'm going to be going to grad school in the fall, so I'm hardly done with school (and thus still avoiding the real world).

I find the toon wagon most interesting at this point. SubzeroSith jumped on something that I initially thought was a small point. However, I like the 3 reasons that he provided, and while I'm still not fully convinced that it's enough to merit a vote against Toon, it's definitely something to keep in mind particularly as interactions continue unfolding. Additionally, Toon's response:

Alright since so many people seem to not be getting it, I'll spell it out for all of you.

If Toon wanted to cause a day 1 bandwagon for the purpose of causing a bandwagon, which he implied that he wanted to do with his vote post, then he would clearly want to vote for the player who has the most votes on them. This was Maxous. He instead voted for nhammen. Why would he do this?

I can think of 3 reasons:
1) Toon knows Maxous is scum, and doesn't want a day 1 bandwagon to pile on him. This could potentially lead to Maxous over reacting in a scummy way and leads to increased suspicion, possibly a lynch down the road.
2) Toon knows that nhammen is scum and wants to distance himself from a scum buddy during the RVS, as scum buddies frequently do.
3) Toon either didn't know or didn't care what the current vote count was, and placed a worthless vote without meaning or purpose.

The first 2 would indicate that Toon is scum. The third, while not exactly saying much about his alignment, does theoretically help a scum win condition more than a town win condition.

I'm not saying this is a solid vote that should be carried to the deadline. I'm just saying this is a place to start better than a completely random vote.

It was a random vote for the sake of making a random vote. At least we are getting some gameplay out of it. I know nothing about the alignment of either of them. And I didn't notice Maxous already had 2 votes on him when I voted nhammen

is pretty abysmal, and is definitely enough to merit a FoS: Toon.

However, one thing that I really found interesting was Pine's sudden confidence in the Toon wagon. He stated:

What? I thought my vote was on Toon. nhammen vote was pure RVS, Toon is real.

UNVOTE: nhammen
VOTE: Toon

However, his only thought on Toon came in his second post, where he stated:

EDT, do your own research on me, and I'm pretty active and vocal.

No real early reads yet, though I'm not a fan of the early sheeping out of Toon.

Ohai Wraith

He added later:

Yeah. In lieu of anything more convincing, I'm sticking with my slight gut lead I had on Toon Fighter. It's not a random vote.

Not only had he not voted, but it was pretty random and hardly strong enough to merit the sudden conviction that Toon deserves a real vote.

In fact, VOTE: Pine.

Also,

This is a pressure vote.

You're doing it wrong.

QFT

Preview edit: @Toon: That doesn't make it any less of an OMGUS.

[jmurph3]

maybe it's cause... hmmm I dunno... I'm waiting for a reply?

From whom are you waiting for a reply?

@jmurph - "OMG, Pine is scum because look how he was against the Toon Fighter wagon but than suddenly jumped on it, OMGLOLWTF!?!"
Why is Pine more scummy than Toon Fighter for this interplay?

What? I was never against the Toon wagon. I've been FOR it almost from page 1. I just forgot to actually vote until the mod's votecount reminded me I was still on my RVS vote of nhammen

Not what I said, and not what I meant. Pine admittedly made a small comment regarding toon early on, but his sudden emphasis on the wagon and his emphatic statements that he has always supported it stood out to me as being scummy.

[jmurph3]

@jmurph - could you restate what you said and meant - clearly I'm not getting it.

Pine claimed here:

What? I thought my vote was on Toon. nhammen vote was pure RVS, Toon is real.

UNVOTE: nhammen
VOTE: Toon

This seemed rather odd to me, given that his only two statements about toon up until this point were:

EDT, do your own research on me, and I'm pretty active and vocal.

No real early reads yet, though I'm not a fan of the early sheeping out of Toon.

Ohai Wraith

and

Yeah. In lieu of anything more convincing, I'm sticking with my slight gut lead I had on Toon Fighter. It's not a random vote.

after which he went on a completely different tangent. This stuck out as scummy to me because of his conviction in this "real" vote when he has hardly said anything about Toon and definitely not made a real case against him. Does that make more sense?

[jmurph3]

Stupid question time: what does VCA stand for?

Also, can someone explain to me the hate aimed at Subzero at the moment? I've read his ISO and I'm really not getting it.

[jmurph3]

Between the two of subzero and silver, I would much rather see silver lynched. I am not a fan of his play thus far, and I still really don't see the case against subzero.

Uite's most recent post is interesting, and also much more like his play that I've seen previously. He makes a very interesting point against DeityKabuto. Also, am I reading this wrong, or is this:

That is some reasonable logic there, but I am more of what the "town" wants. If the town wants a certain person lynch, then I will overview the case and gather my own reasoning. Scumhunting itself can make you look scummy, if you don't know what you're doing, which I've experienced in past games.

basically Deity stating that he has no intention to actually scumhunt and just hop on the most popular wagons?

That being said, however, the timing of Uite's post seems odd to me, especially since if I read the deadline right, we only have 4 days left, and Uite's trying to start a completely different wagon? It just seems a bit suspicious to me.

Also, for the moment, UNVOTE:

[jmurph3]

EBWOP: I unvoted because I will be

V/LA until at least Tuesday

. I am getting my wisdom teeth taken out and while I would love to post while under the influence of vicodin, it would probably be better if I didn't.

[jmurph3]

Back from V/LA! My mouth hurts

Anywho, I'm catching up on things, but quickly since I just read it,

@DK: Thor wasn't calling you scummy; he was talking about a post that Amor made that was scummy (if you followed the link you would see it), in response to Amor's question:

@Thor: Could you please explain how I'm "sort of sideline egging on a fight"? And I don't see what's so scummy about being suspicious of multiple people. It really looks like you're tunneling on me.

[jmurph3]

Well Mastin's revelation comes as a bit of a surprise. I'm still not voting subzero because I still don't see anything in the case against him.

@Mod: can we get an updated vote count?

[jmurph3]

VOTE: Toon

I do not think subzero is scum by any means.

[jmurph3]

DK is scum for three reasons:

1. In this post, Amor seems to be using an associative tell by addressing two now confirmed town and then DK. DK is almost without doubt his buddy from that alone.

2. This blatant chainsaw defense of Amor after nhammen's vote.

3. Finally, though this is the weakest of the three, in this post, DK reads Amor as pro-town and posting logically. DK is new enough that it's feasible that he does not yet know how to distance himself.

VOTE: DeityKabuto

[jmurph3]

Last time I played with a jailkeeper, it was actually a scum-aligned role (see this game). And, naturally, because the vig hit and the scum nk went through just fine, we have no way of verifying DK's claim (also, it's a little early for a claim. Paranoid much?).

I call shenanigans. And my vote stays exactly where it is.

[jmurph3]

@Pine: reread NS's 628 and stop being so damn paranoid. All NS said was that he didn't have to go looking for mastin's games because mastin linked to them. There was no assumption there of taking things at face-value.

Why have we not yet lynched DK? What are we waiting on? The guy has

claimed scum

for christsakes. Yes, mastin has said he's not going to tell us the result of his investigation, but as I doubt we're going to change his mind, I don't see a whole lot of point in sitting here dithering about whether he's actually a daycop (newsflash: there's also the possibility that he could have been a one-shot daycop, so he may not even have an investigation), especially since my guess is that his investigation turned up a townie, which he doesn't want to tell us today so that the scum don't get it in their minds to NK that person tonight.

C'mon people. We're wasting daylight here.

[jmurph3]

@NS: My biggest problem with this day is that we're not going anywhere with the discussion. If we were, I would see no reason to halt it. However, that's simply not the case. No one's suggested a viable second-lynch candidate, and sitting here derping about mastin isn't particularly helpful IMO.

[jmurph3]

Hmmmm...need to reread everything now (as an aside - I had KoC pegged as the cop because of a comment he made shortly after mastin's claim). However, before jumping on the silver wagon, I want to ask mastin this:

You stated of Deity's claim that

Deity's giving us one confirmed scum, likely one buddy, and probably one townie. (If that really was the scumteam this game, well, then, quadz will have to call the game ruined. >_<)

I admit, I am scum. I am scum along with Amor, Surye, and Pine.

Since Surye has now flipped town, does that at all changed your opinion of the presence of a buddy on this list? Do you still think it unlikely that Pine could be the buddy?

Additionally,

(My original plan was to have the real cop claim today, since we know there's a doc. Evidence? Jmurph is still alive, despite being a mason [which we now know to be LOVER mason] with SubSith and Thor.

Are you saying that there's a doc because I was not killed with SubSith and Thor? Because that's not (necessarily) true. Obviously I don't know one way or the other if there's a doc, but I was not a part of the lover masons. I was a very sad and lonely third-wheel mason, thus meaning that only Thor and SubSith would die together, not me.

MrZepher's post irked me. I'm getting a huge scumread off of it, in fact. First he tries to confirm Pine as town based on Deity's list, which I don't think is a good reason to confirm him. Then he decides to go after Uite and not Silver, which is fine, but his reasoning is that he "wants to believes" that Silver is town, and that Uite won't contribute whether or not he's scum. This is just seeming like a big ol' buddying post, meaning that if MrZepher is scum, than at least one of Silver and Pine is scum. And I'm honestly not sure which at this point. Thus, VOTE: MrZepher.

[jmurph3]

@Pine:

I really, really don't like this. Will give benefit of the doubt for now, though. Any other cops out there would do well to check mastin out, if they exist.

Also, why are you so convinced that mastin is scum? Yes he fakeclaimed - that in and of itself does not make him scum. Additionally, you note that VCA is a bad way to scumhunt...however, Mastin has helped to bring down two of the scum members (one of whom was godfather, if you recall). In fact, that in and of itself should be enough to almost fully confirm Mastin. With the toon lynch as strong as it was, why would mastin-as-scum be arguing so hard for the lynch to be against Amor? Even the town-cred won from lynching scum wouldn't, IMO, be enough to merit lynching the most powerful scum PR in this game. It just doesn't make sense.

[jmurph3]

Pine's attacking of mastin and absolute vehemence by him is surprising to me. It's one thing to disagree, but to take such umbrage with what mastin's saying suggests something deeper at work. In fact, I'm reading it as a strong chainsaw defense of silver. After all, mastin's read of Pine is town(ish), meaning that the attacking by Pine isn't personal (theoretically speaking), which then means that it's a little over-the-top to me.Let's just say, IGMEOY.

[jmurph3]

EBWOP: I feel like that didn't come out the way I intended. To sum in a hopefully more coherent way: I'd expect Pine's type of reaction against mastin much more if Pine were being attacked or suspected, and the fact that mastin currently has a town read on him make me a little suspicious of Pine.

[jmurph3]

So the fact that I'm confirmed town means nothing to you?

[jmurph3]

Not sure what to make of silver's claim and self-vote. On the one hand, the self-vote seems oddly timed for the scum, given as how most likely only 2, maybe 3 remain. On the other hand, the self-vote seems to have already thrown some people off of silver, which is precisely what scum would want. WIFOM shenanigans. If silver is town, claiming and self-voting as he has is actually rather extremely anti-town; if he's scum...well, mission accomplished. I'm comfortable with his lynch enough to put him at L-1.

UNVOTE: ,VOTE: Silver

[jmurph3]

For reference, mastin's post on why he thinks toon is town is here.

At this point, I'm definitely not inclined to lynch mastin. In fact, the only other person besides silver that I'd be willing to lynch today is probably Pine.

[jmurph3]

[biting tongue] I will not gloat, I will not gloat... [/biting tongue]

If the support's no longer there for a silver lynch, then I'm obviously in favor of a Pine lynch. In fact, let's get that rolling. UNVOTE: ,VOTE: Pine

[jmurph3]

UNVOTE:

I went back through the thread and realized that my justification for why mastin was most likely not bussing scum (in the case of the amor lynch) must also then apply to Pine, as Pine had the same opportunity to stay on the Toon wagon and lynch a possible townie. By my own logic, if mastin is unlikely to be scum because of that, the same applies to Pine. My apologies.

This means that, to me, there are two scum somewhere in the set of silver, nhammen, MrZepher, Nobody Special, Uite, Toon, and Maxous. I'm personally not convinced that silver is town based on his reaction to the votes against him today. Do I doubt his frustration is real? No - but caught scum can be just as frustrated as a townie. Frustration and appeal to emotion =/= town. In fact, if anything, silver's attitude today has been distinctly anti-town. Instead of focusing on finding an alternate viable lynch candidate, he instead demands that we hammer him and self-votes. Why would a townie want to do that? Even a frustrated townie should be concerned more with gathering information.

For those reasons, I am going to once again VOTE: Silver

[jmurph3]

No. Silver is Town.

Someone other than Maxous or Mastin explain to me why we haven't been looking at Maxous lately? I seem to recall some very circumstantial evidence early on giving him some "clear for now" credit, but nothing since. Same goes for Mr. Zepher.

I don't disagree that we've been focusing on the same players, but like Toon, I want to know why you're so convinced silver is town. Because the only reasoning that I can find that you've stated is because silverscum wouldn't act the way silver is currently acting, which is WIFOM and you know it.

[jmurph3]

@Silver: No. You haven't said "shit". Actually, you have. All that you've said today has been pretty much bullshit. Who do you think is scum? You mentioned nhammen weakly, but that's it. Please, make a case against someone. I'm not tunneling, I just don't see any conceivable way that you can be acting the way you are and be town.

[jmurph3]

@Pine: and you don't think it's at all conceivable that silver, knowing that you and everyone else who played TWBB remembers that he acted that way as town, is doing the same exact thing as scum and relying on the fact that you will think he's town because of it?

[jmurph3]

@Pine: what the hell happened to your attitude in this post where you offered to "take one for the team"? Why are you freaking out about potentially being lynched?

[jmurph3]

ANYTHING in this game can be taken and twisted and manipulated to support anything. VCA is just another tool to be used, the same as ISOs and meta and quotes and literally anything that anyone says or does in this game. To dismiss it outright under the guise that it can be manipulated is to dismiss anything that anyone does in this game as conjecture or as being "twisted".

[jmurph3]

@Silver: I wasn't ignoring you; I posted something unrelated very quickly because I didn't have time to post much else.

-jmurph

@Silver: No. You haven't said "shit". Actually, you have. All that you've said today has been pretty much bullshit. Who do you think is scum? You mentioned nhammen weakly, but that's it. Please, make a case against someone. I'm not tunneling, I just don't see any conceivable way that you can be acting the way you are and be town.

This is exactly the gad damn point i'm making. You say my posts have been bullshit when i've been arguing with nhammers logic in his walls but let's just keep fucking ignoring the obvious shall we?

Because your posting about nhammen has been so stellar...let's see what you've actually posted on D3 about nhammen...

In this post, you OMGUS vote him because he didn't present a case.

In this post, you yell at nhammen for not understanding what you're trying to do (which clearly no one is), all of which is negated by your self-vote.

Finally, in this post, you attempt to refute some of nhammen's points against you.

Please, tell me where I'm missing you

making a case against nhammen

. My point was that you haven't made a real case against someone (and arguing against someone's logic IS NOT the same as making a case), and guess what - you haven't! If I were you, I'd try actually making a case against someone, and weighing in on the other potential scum instead of going "Waa Waa, woe is me, no one will listen to me and everyone's ignoring me and I'm going to stamp my feet and pout my lip like a baby".

@Pine: and you don't think it's at all conceivable that silver, knowing that you and everyone else who played TWBB remembers that he acted that way as town, is doing the same exact thing as scum and relying on the fact that you will think he's town because of it?

Silver bullet - The evil scum mastermind that caclulates each and every gad damn move every player is going to make and see. By god I'm Fucking Brilliant! If Only you didn't catch on, jmurph the even bigger god damn mastermind! Didn't I say something about God Damn Tunneling before? You don't get this paranoid unless you are tunneling mate.. you are fucking proving there's no point in me trying to fight this time and time again.

How is this tunneling even in the slightest? Why would I be paranoid even if I were tunneling? My point here isn't even against you. My point here was that Pine was dismissing something outright based on one experience, which is faulty logic to say the least.

[jmurph3]

UNVOTE:

Silver lynch appears not to be happening today. Silver, if you are town, please, and I do mean this is all sincerity, either drastically change your attitude, or request replacement.

As far as other lynches at this point, I need to reread and figure out where I stand on some people. At the moment I have a gut scumread on Mr.Zepher (and I apologize, because I personally hate when people use gutreads as justification because it's impossible to defend against as town or scum), and a bunch of other jumbled reads that need to be sorted out.

One thing that really struck me, however, when I was going back through the lead-up to the D1 lynch, is that Maxous really wavered on amor. Kept going back and forth, had a vote on him only for a moment and then very quickly took it off

when he realized that it might be possible with plurality voting that amor not be lynched

. I dunno, it just seems hella scummy to me. Enough for me to VOTE: Maxous

[jmurph3]

Apparently you and I have drastically different opinions of what constitutes playing to a town win-con. Basically, your attitude = anti-town. Therefore, if you are town, something needs to change. If you are scum, you're absolutely free to continue being anti-town.

[jmurph3]

@Mod: Can we get an updated votecount?

[jmurph3]

Alright friends, here;s how this is going. I'm drunk. Awesome, I nknow. Additionally, I am literally the only one guarantteed to flip town. Which means I;m probs gone tomorrow. Basically, here's how this plays out: either I, as confirmed town, or pine, as claimed RB is lynched tonight. And if I am lynched tonight, here;s what I am thinking. Mastin should be vig-ed to basically confirm that he is town (and/or SK depending on how that shit goes down). I strongly suspect he is town. I think someone else is SK. I also think that we have an SK instead of a vig because of how often the "vig" shot has been made. Here is what I would do (if I were you, and/or if I were around, which I suspect I will not be). I would get rid of mastin if he;s not already gone to clear any suspicion. I would get rid of one of nhammen and/or silver (the other is definitely scum if one flips town). From there, I don't know where to go, because it would depend on how everthing else plays out, but I think that we as town have a good chance of winning, Make me proud, friends. [/drunk] Sorry for any and all incoherence.

[jmurph3]

Honestly can;t even type that word while drunk. Where I get that though is the distinct cases by each against each other. The way I'm reading it says one if scum and the other probably isn't. Could be wrong though, and I make no excses for if I am.

[jmurph3]

Meh. I'm down with a Mastin lynch, if just to settle any lingering controversy over his alignment.

UNVOTE: ,VOTE: Mastin

[jmurph3]

Yes, cheers to quadz for fabulous modding!