New York 131: Tricycle Mafia (Day 5)

[SubzeroSith]

Both heads usually ask a few questions at the start of games for our own personal reference, so we'll do so again here...

What time zone are you in?

What's your experience level? Especially good to know in case of alts and whatnot.

About how active will you be in this game?

To answer:

Both of us are California residents, so Pacific Daylight Time (GMT-8 +1)

Between the two of us, ~25 completed games on MafiaScum.

We're both active posters as individuals, so both activity level and content in this game should be reasonably high from us.

Vote: Toon Fighter.

Can't tell if you're fighting music or cartoons, but really, why fight either?

[SubzeroSith]

RQS Already? NOOOOOOO!!!!

Oh but it isn't RQS, it's simply for me to know. I like knowing people's time zones ever since my first game when I played with an Australian or something because he posted at weird times and I seem to recall waiting for his post close to deadline, without really knowing he was on a weird time zone.

It is also handy to know if someone is a long time pro or a first timer, as obvious mistakes will be much more likely made by a new player than a veteran. Likewise I also like to have a feel for people's posting habits quickly, as it gives me an indication if someone is lurking harder than they normally do.

Toon, why choose the nhammen "wagon"? Maxous already had 2 votes at the time of you voting, as opposed to the 1 on nhamman. If you were really voting for the purpose of wagoning, you'd vote for Maxous. Seems fishy to me. Glad my vote is already on you, saves me the trouble.

[SubzeroSith]

Also, just some random shout outs. I'm looking forward to playing with a lot of you again! Uite in particular gave me lots of trouble in a game not too long ago, let's see how this turns out.

And hello again Pine, NS, wraith, and Thor.

[SubzeroSith]

Sheep me then, and make a large bandwagon that will force people to react to it.

I quite like my own vote better. It isn't much more than a random vote, but I feel like it has more substance to it than most of the votes so far.

[SubzeroSith]

Toon, why choose the nhammen "wagon"? Maxous already had 2 votes at the time of you voting, as opposed to the 1 on nhamman. If you were really voting for the purpose of wagoning, you'd vote for Maxous. Seems fishy to me.

Is a better vote than

Clearly an RVS that doesn't need to even have reasoning is an RVS everyone should sheep.

Though only by a teeny tiny amount.

[SubzeroSith]

Bloody hell, are we out of the RVS already? That was quick.
Would like to know what SubzeroSith and Pine are thinking as to why their votes are somehow less random than others.
Unvote by the way.

It wasn't that quick. This game was slow in starting.

The Toon Fighter vote began with a lulz-reason but remained there for non-lulz reasons.

And why the unvote without revoting?

[SubzeroSith]

@Knight:

Toon, why choose the nhammen "wagon"? Maxous already had 2 votes at the time of you voting, as opposed to the 1 on nhamman. If you were really voting for the purpose of wagoning, you'd vote for Maxous. Seems fishy to me. Glad my vote is already on you, saves me the trouble.

Also--

Because I don't have anything to go on... yet.

Given the unlikelihood of lynching someone on p3 of a large game, why this reluctance? A vote not out is a vote not gathering information, a lack of which is what you're bemoaning here.

[SubzeroSith]

Alright since so many people seem to not be getting it, I'll spell it out for all of you.

If Toon wanted to cause a day 1 bandwagon for the purpose of causing a bandwagon, which he implied that he wanted to do with his vote post, then he would clearly want to vote for the player who has the most votes on them. This was Maxous. He instead voted for nhammen. Why would he do this?

I can think of 3 reasons:
1) Toon knows Maxous is scum, and doesn't want a day 1 bandwagon to pile on him. This could potentially lead to Maxous over reacting in a scummy way and leads to increased suspicion, possibly a lynch down the road.
2) Toon knows that nhammen is scum and wants to distance himself from a scum buddy during the RVS, as scum buddies frequently do.
3) Toon either didn't know or didn't care what the current vote count was, and placed a worthless vote without meaning or purpose.

The first 2 would indicate that Toon is scum. The third, while not exactly saying much about his alignment, does theoretically help a scum win condition more than a town win condition.

I'm not saying this is a solid vote that should be carried to the deadline. I'm just saying this is a place to start better than a completely random vote.

[SubzeroSith]

I do not trust nhammen. Not one bit.

That's nice. Do you have anything productive to say?

Random vote is random.

My initial vote was random, but as I've very clearly pointed out, I now have a reason for voting you.

Why don't we discuss something more productive?

Alright. I'm trying to scum hunt you. What do you feel is more productive to talk about? You've done

nothing this entire game but discuss RVS votes

, which you apparently find scummy. Therefore, by your own reasoning, your entire play so far this game is scummy.

It was a random vote for the sake of making a random vote.

You clearly stated you wanted a bandwagon, though. If you wanted to begin day 1 with a bandwagon, why didn't you take a (very quick) glance to see who had the most votes on them, in order to be most successful with your endeavor? That definitely seems like what town would do. Sure you could have made a random vote for the sake of making a random vote, which would tell us nothing about your alignment. However, it is also possible that you know the alignments of Maxous and nhammen, and voted accordingly.

OMGUS vote noted. Hypocrisy noted. Zero scum hunting accomplished so far noted.

More Toon votes, please.

[SubzeroSith]

I voted him because he is attacking me for bs reasons about a RV I made at the beginning of the game

Thanks for admitting that you're voting me for, you know, actually scumhunting. Even *if* you think my reasons are bad, this is so early in the game, and the game started so slowly, that ya gotta start somewhere, amirite?

Also: what Pine said--no vote is truly random.

@Wraith: When you're not busy making us chuckle with lolz pictures of Captain Picard, could you offer some substance? Why, for instance, are you leery of nhammen? Let's start there.

[SubzeroSith]

both games I've played with nhammen have been games where he was scum, and both had very similar playstyles

It's a start. Show me more connections down the road to nhammen's current play with his scum play (and even better, how it is dislike his town play) and I'll definitely listen.

Before you made this post, I was going to put you on blast for having 7 posts containing zero content, but now you have 8 posts with 1 sorta-content. How do you feel about the current popular wagons (Toon, Pine, myself)?

I regards to Sub's post, I was actually looking at option number 2 before you posted. nhammen's most recent post came off as scummy for whatever reason. I'll figure out why I didn't like his post soon enough.
The reasoning seems sounds enough for a vote, but if it builds up too quickly I'll get off so Toon can put his word in. I'm interested, but it's still kind of vote madness right now so I'm not going to make a big deal.

I don't like this post. Let's break down what you said.
1) "I have similar thoughts regarding your case against Toon." Parroting? Buddying? Maybe.
2) "This is enhanced because I somehow found one of nhammen's posts scummy, and can't explain why." You need to explain this.
3) "I'll vote, but I'm very hesitant, and would like to give myself a backdoor in case this goes too far." Obvscummy play.

I'm definitely feeling like if Toon flips scum, this is a bus vote. I'll keep this in mind for later.

Welcome back, Uite. What are your thoughts on the game so far?

sapor, now that the RVS is over, what do you plan to do with your vote?

Amor, do you still find Knight to be the scummiest player right now? What are your thoughts on the popular wagons?

[SubzeroSith]

Knight, that post was horribly incoherent. Read your stuff before you post it, please.

And telling an inactive player to post is not coaching.

[SubzeroSith]

If I get voted for bandwaggoning in RVS, this guy should too.

You really have no idea why we voted you, do you? Or are you just twisting things to suit your purpose?

[SubzeroSith]

Hi Mastin!! *waves* Now we REALLY need Singer to be playing in this game so that it can be a Newbie 1048 reunion.

And way to redact our name. My guess is that will be the only time you edit down your contributions in the game? (And Thor, this is the Calcifer Mastin...so I guess, get them fish ready?)

sub would you mind signing your posts as to which one it is? Not that you HAVE to but just thought i'd ask if you wouldn't mind.

*has nightmares of there will be blood*

LOL. I'll try to remember (this is DY, as Mastin and nhammen would deduce from my above comments), but I'm pretty dumb and am apt to forget, so if you want to know which head wrote a particular post, ask. The more high quality the post is, the more likely it is that ICE wrote it.

KOC

and Subzero are likely to be town.
I think Jmurph is town.

Ever so slightly leaning town on Wraith.

nhammen and Mr.Zepher look like town.
I'm unsure about Thor- I'll see after a couple of more posts.

VERY unsure about Amor

Pine looks slightly scummy
Toon fighter seems like mafia - quite interested in his next post

Maxous, could you please explain the bolded reads? (In the case of Amor, this is more clarification of wording--by "very unsure" you mean you can't read Amor, or that your read is uneasy/scummy/etc?)

@Wraith: So, if I understand you correctly, your hunch on nhammen is largely meta-based? If so, games, please?

@Nhammen: When you get back, would like to hear your thoughts on the attention being thrown on Silver, especially given the 'fake scumhunting' belief you hold about Pine.

~DarthYoshi

[SubzeroSith]

Silver, let us know when you're ready to add some non-lulz content. I see zero substance in your last three posts.

[SubzeroSith]

SubzeroSith - 53% (serious RV but he explained himself well)

The initial random vote was not serious. It was a random vote. After post 22, I then had valid reasoning for it to be a serious vote, and it was simply coincidence that it was on the same person whom I had random voted.

DarthYoshi - 60% (not posting/contributing much)

Yoshi is not a player in this game. He posted to clarify this hydra.

Most of what you said in that post was fairly useless.

[SubzeroSith]

Alright, because of Silver's 142, I can guess at where these jokes are coming from.

It's time to play, though. This game is long out of RVS, and we're doing real scum hunting here. A joking post or two at the beginning of replacing in is fine, but now you're being quite anti-town, even boarder lining scummy for giving us zero information with which to read you.

Honestly, I'm honestly not positive if your vote on me is serious. I don't think it is, but I can't quite be sure. If it is serious, you need to give reasons why. If it isn't, you need to make a vote that is. We've got 7 pages full of content with which to find someone suspicious, or at the very least find someone who needs some pressure.

[SubzeroSith]

Pine, just read Toon's ISO. There is NO scumhunting there aside from a weak FoS of Thor and an OMGUS vote on me. And I guess a question towards you.

Also, Toon's vote on Mastin is the type of vote that makes kittens cry, angels lose their wings, and the Mafia-playing panda a sad panda. Toon votes Mastin for doing the exact same thing Toon did in voting for us (and I suspect it is posturing, as it is pretty obvious that Mastin was trying to make a funny), and it is in response to a player voting for who their (Toon's) presumed #1 suspect is.

If more players vote for Toon, I bet the kittens will stop crying.

[SubzeroSith]

damn it mastin, i hate you for the things you do to my mind.

So you're voting me, why? You didn't actually give a reason for that.

Two honestlys? Town is honest by default.. it's scum that needs to feign honesty and point it out.

Oops, I must not have had time to preview and edit that post before submitting it. I usually catch English mistakes before posting. Are you using this as an excuse to justify voting me? Terrible.

This is a real doozy here.
Toon competely lifted the excuse DK gave him from his wall and ran with it. As the comments were only because of his irration at whoever.
It would'nt of been as suspect if Toon brought it up himself but the fact that he read DK's comments and then posted this looks quite opportunistic.

Very interesting. While this isn't a sure scum read, it does indicate a possibility of a fairly significant scum slip there.

That's pretty much what was worth reading in that post. It was awful. Two points you just say "why are you lying?" while spelling poorly, you don't dispute the fact that you had indeed gone paranoid about one vote in a large game, tried to discredit his points against you without giving even the tiniest shred of evidence why his points aren't valid, and tossed out an unnecessary snarky comment as a cherry on top.

You've risen almost to the top of my scum list after that vote and terrible posting. If it weren't for Maxous's points about Toon, I'd actually change my vote now.

[SubzeroSith]

BOOM. HEADSHOT.

[SubzeroSith]

FML, I thought I was on the SZS account when I wrote that.

Unvote. Vote: Silver

so that it'll count.

At least Silver knows who wrote that one, at least. :eyeroll

[SubzeroSith]

I also have no idea why that ended up being a double post.

quadz, feel free to delete one of those.

Sorry, y'all.

<3

[SubzeroSith]

Alright so there's a legendary mastic post that I've heard of.

Just for your reference, the ICE half of the hydra has made probably 2/3rds of our posts, and using meta read on a hydra is completely useless as you even yourself admit.

Now looking at your second spoiler, you sure have a lot of worthless stuff in there. You like some random votes but dislike others, despite them being more or less the same thing. You flip flop on tons of people without much explanation, and you admit to having posted mostly fluff.

While you do give some tidbits of analysis here and there, mostly in the form of 'like" or "dislike", and some unexplained VCA, I'm not really seeing any scum hunting at all from you. I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplish with your vote on me, but if it's something that you normally do then I'll just have to wait for some real scum hunting from the end of the day.

[SubzeroSith]

I'd also like to direct everyone to Nothing Special's ISO.

0: Answering my questions. Fine.
1: Better than average random vote, but still not particularly good.
2: Empty.
3: "Uh wut I'm confused."
4: Worthless.
5: Almost looks like a random vote.

I've seen people do more scum hunting on page 1 than this guy has the whole game so far. Don't like it.

[SubzeroSith]

And this doesn't look like the Yoshi-town I remember.

Granted, he was a newbie, then, and he was also a Cop, then, (and hydra'ing is different than normal play) but it's still concerning enough to me that I'm looking specifically for reactions.

You just listed three pretty substantial variables there, Mastin. Tell me again why you're reading much into this?

Also--I notice that you're referring to both us and Toon as "easy wagons" or "easy lynches." But one of the two (us) you think is scum and one (Toon) you think is null despite you apparently seeing the point of the case. Why the discrepancy?

[SubzeroSith]

I think my VCA nailed it, is dead-on what the scum are this game. And if not, is pretty darn close.

I'm honestly not sure if I'm supposed to be laughing or not. Do you really think you've actually caught multiple scum on day 1 just because of VCA with

zero

flips? The way you catch people with VCA is you look at who the CONFIRMED town are (we currently have zero), who the CONFIRMED scum are, and then look at whose votes made the most sense, whose were the weakest and most bus-like, etc. You cannot just say that you've caught anyone from who voted who on a random day 1 wagon that wasn't even built on anything particularly substantial, as in all the games I've played, probably only 2 or 3 of the day 1 lynches were truly based on something substantial.

Sure, there are things one could possibly note, such as Silver chainsaw defensing Toon by attacking me, which is plausible considering his wishy washy stance on Toon himself, and also makes sense considering my scum read on both players independently. This, however, means NOTHING until we have a flip of one or the other, which is why I didn't even bring it up before.

Silver, seriously think about this. You re-voted me because mastin

jokingly

said I'm a town read. This was literally you

entire

justification for voting me.

he is very eager to discredit arguments made against him.

Have you seen the arguments against me? I'd have to put effort in to NOT discrediting them.

the way he approaches his scum-hunting is very nit-picky

This is how ICE scum hunts for day 1. I find things that somehow don't match up or don't make sense, I.E. something that isn't a random vote, and push it as if it were a scum slip. It seems nit-picky to many, because well, it often is. This generates discussion, gets other people voting for reasons more serious than past histories, anime avatars, names, etc. and gets the ball rolling. Once said ball is said rolling, scum such as Silver come out and make terrible votes and push them without reason, thus outing themselves as scum. I personally think it's a great scum hunting tactic.

It essentially forces players in to action, and scum want to act as little as possible during day 1.

[SubzeroSith]

And to answer silver's question:

So.. I'm that paranoid from one vote in a large game?

Yes, that's exactly what happened. You completely stopped your scum hunting for several pages simply because someone asked you a question, and you asked a fairly inane question in response and expected said question to be answered before you could do any more scum hunting.

You haven't even done scum hunting since, you've just voted based on what mastin says.

[SubzeroSith]

No joke, I'm not quite sure if silver is serious or if he's trolling. For the sake of your IQ, I hope you're trolling.

False, I voted you initially because of how important you wanted to make your initial vote.

So me feeling like a vote with real reasoning (I explained it in quite some detail) is better than a meaningless RVS vote is scummy. Hmm.

Unvoted you when mastin went "Sub's scum, seriously" because I believed mastin to have a heavy scum read on you

Troll? If not, then why would you UNvote me because another player thinks I'm scum?

He then cleared it up so I threw my vote back on you.

And what, exactly, do his unexplained and so far fairly worthless opinions matter to your scum hunting? More trolling?

Fairly inane is completely your opinion and your opinion alone.

My opinion that ice cream is delicious and that herring is disgusting is my opinion and my opinion alone. It just so happens to be shared with a vast majority of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if others here looked through your ISO and likewise found pointless questions that lacked scum hunting value.

Furthermore, I'm not allowed to wait for a response and see how it's responded to before moving further? I'm not allowed to attempt to attain information from a question.. and then respond with further questions after a response if needed?

If you have a groundbreaking point that makes or breaks a case you have that requires responding to, then yes absolutely. If you're asking nearly pointless questions that get glossed over because they have almost zero significance to the game, and then refusing to participate further until said questions are answered then you are probably scum.

Are you really telling me that my questions to you and max are me just dancing in the air having a good ol time?

No, but I'm telling you that you aren't really doing any effective scum hunting. You're mostly getting butt hurt and asking pointless questions.

Fun fact: You missed a few questions

Fun fact: the questions were pretty dumb and my answering them only points to how scummy you are. I didn't even feel them worth responding to but fine.

HOW THE FUCK IS THAT A STRAWMAN!?

You pointed out something I said that wasn't painting you a scummy, just irritating. You then focused a fair amount on it. You're discrediting me and ad homineming me because I pointed out something irritating about you. Just in case you don't actually know what a straw man defense is, it is taking the weakest point of the argument and attempting to weaken or discredit the entire argument on the basis of its weakest point without adequately responding to the more serious matters. You did that

exactly

.

Why are you rising to defend max so quickly

I never rose to defend Max. I rose to smack down your terrible posting and scum hunt you. There's a HUGE difference. Your post calling him out was absolutely HORRIBLY scummy. I didn't even really defend Max, I just pointed out where you were wrong.

My views of you being irritating may not be shared by the entirety of this hydra. You're getting on ICE's nerves, though.

[SubzeroSith]

If my questions are dumb and you answering them shows me to be even MORE scummy. Why the fuck would they NOT be worth responding to?

They were minute and pointless. It isn't as if I don't have enough reason to think you're scum.

Now you are switching from. "You haven't even done scum hunting since, you've just voted based on what mastin says." TO "oh your scum hunting but it's not effective at all".

No, you're misinterpreting the situation. In my eyes, attempting scum hunting or pretending to scum hunt is pretty much the same thing as not scum hunting. They're both scummy.

[SubzeroSith]

Mastin, I have two completed games here as scum. In neither of them did I bus a scumbuddy on D1.

I also think bickering with Silver has reached an impasse. If he's town, his play sure doesn't show it. If he's scum (which I suspect), let's lynch him and move on.

-DY

[SubzeroSith]

I'm very interested in people who haven't really said much about the silver case. I'm looking at you, Uite.

And Nothing Special, if he is actually in this game, hasn't really shown it.

Wraith, I know you hate D1, but you've got to have SOME thoughts on all these backs and forwards.

There's probably another lurker or two than I'm forgetting about. Can you guys please start playing?

[SubzeroSith]

In case you didn't notice, Silverbullet is on my list of town reads. It's mostly based on meta, but he's really playing like town-SB. I know he's usually a bit random and out there, which always makes him look mildly scummy. Now the trick to deciphering whether he's town or scum is to look at how much sense he's making. I've found that when he's scum, he'll just say whatever, without any coherence at all, but if he's town, you can easily see the thought patterns behind his posts. This game is an obvious case of the latter, so much so that he's one of the few I'm willing to confidently say is Town.

I absolutely did notice. You had gave a town read without further comment, which considering the wagon size, really is not acceptable. I definitely wanted you to say more, considering you didn't have anything to say about the case against him or the wagon. See the funny thing is, I'm really not finding anything that makes sense in his cases, really. A lot of his defense is just accusing his accuser of lying, he's unvoted and revoted me based on weird things that another player has said, his original vote on me (which seems to still have been the basis for his continuing vote on me for quite some time) makes literally no sense. His original case on me was "he felt his vote was more important than Maxous's". I had simply said "I like my vote better", when I did. My vote had reasoning behind it, which was explained in detail, where Maxous's vote was an RVS bandwagon vote. How is calling that a scum slip making sense? Can you please point out anywhere he makes sense later on?

My vote remains firmly parked on SubSith.

Funny, you seemed just about ready to switch over to silver, but now your vote is "parked firmly".

I don't really feel good about DK's responses. I really don't agree at all that townies can't all be predator, because all that means is "not every townie can scum hunt", which I vehemently disagree with. He seems to be giving himself an easy out to play an easy scum game. If this doesn't check out with his meta, then it is probably a safe bet that DK is scum. If it does check out with his meta, then he is short changing town a scum hunter every game he's town aligned.

[SubzeroSith]

I don't like Mastin's argument. Or, rather, I like the "at least two scum on this wagon" part of the argument,

but I don't like the whole "this is right regardless of silver's alignment" thing.

Also find it a little odd that mastin just accepted a VT claim and his vote which was going to be on silver depending on the result of the claim is now "firmly" on SubZero... "I'll consider my vote depending on your claim" doesn't read much like "firmly" to me...

Emphasis mine. This is actually quite a good point from KoC. Mastin's views seem impervious to potential flips atm, which is really concerning.

@Wraith: Why the townread on Mastin? FTR, I'm also very interested in what your answer is to Silver's question in #317.

I'll be blunt--the voting trick shenanigans Mastin is pulling with the Silver wagon (fake voting and then referring to himself as a ".5" vote or an honorary member of the wagon) is really squirrelly (since it gives him lots of outs to distance himself if Silver were to actually flip town), and his tunneling I think negates (or at least substantially mitigates) a lot of the scumhunting he is doing so far.

Also, Mastin, point blank--if Silver had 6 votes on him instead of 7, would your vote still be on me?

Am still feeling like NS is doing an excellent job of sliding underneath everyone's radar.

[SubzeroSith]

The three posts above me (not wraiths) slightly disturb me.. I won't comment further on it just yet but yeah.

The post above this line slightly disturbs me. I won't comment further on it just yet (mostly because its awfulness should be self-evident) but yeah.

Silver, at this point, I am really confused. You seem kind of innocent, in a way, and a part of me is saying we shouldn't go through with this, but your actions and what you've done says a thing or few.

What actions in particular are you referring to, and what do they say to you?

Oh, and there'll probably be something in there on the fact that SZS suddenly agrees with me which to be honest shocks me too but hey he had to come around eventually.

Credit where credit is due. Why does it shock you so much? We've been hunting on Toon and Silver (and probably even Mastin too) harder than we have on you.

Just a quick note, has anyone taken a look at who's currently voting mastin?
No? Then you should take a look. It's interesting.

Please elaborate. Also, how come you don't have a vote out right now?

@Mastin--so, let me get this straight--you wanted a claim from Silver without him actually being at L-1? Because you demanded a claim from him when he was at L-2 (or appeared to think he was at L-2, since you referred to your vote as an "honorary" L-1)? How is that good for the town?

[SubzeroSith]

Clarification @ Zepher--I can imagine what you'll likely say about the Mastin wagon, I just want to hear it in your words without leading you.

[SubzeroSith]

I just think it's interesting how 2 suspected likely scum are currently on the Mastin wagon but everyone else is still arguing over 50/50 scum/town

The bolded part is why I don't have a vote out.
I can't tell if either is scum. I'm suspect of one of you, but I don't have enough reasoning to constitute a vote, at least not imo.
I can see what Uite was saying about Silver's ramblings. I can generally make sense of it, once I get past the blabbering troll, but still.

I think there are more scum pushing for a Silver/Sub lynch then other, sense-making lynches.

This post, makes negative sense.

You don't have enough reasoning to constitute a vote, but a vote not out is a vote not gathering information (I think I said this earlier to KoC). If there are scum pushing for a Silver/me lynch over better lynches, then why not use your vote to push one of those better lynches? Does. Not. Compute.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Subsith

Don't have much time now. I like the case on subzero, and I had suspected him before. Also, I believe my vote is more useful there than where it is now. When I have more time (probably tomorrow, but can't promise anything) I'll make a bigger post.

Lookit scum trying to float under the radar when hopping back on the wagon of the player who hunted them down.

I don't like the posts between him and silverbullet (who, obviously, just claimed VT at L-1) and think we should lynch one of them. As silverbullet is already close to lynch, I decided to vote Subzero, but will be willing to hammer silverbullet if the need comes.

Translated: I'm scum and want another D1 claim so that my buddies and I can better use our NK.

@DK: Fair 'nuff. Actually, this is a pretty good point now that I re-read it--Silver is saying that if he's scum, he still wants the town to lynch us. That should say something. Vote stays.

Plowing through nhammen's wall now.

[SubzeroSith]

We really need to be lynching silver now. The deadline is getting uncomfortably close.

I'll tolerate a Toon lynch, but on the account of the VT claim I'd prefer to lynch silver today then take a look at Toon tomorrow. We definitely don't want to be pulling any more claims this close to deadline, as we'll either have a PR claim and not have time to deal with it, or we'll have double VT claims which gives scum a higher chance of nailing a town PR tonight.

Essentially, we hang silver today (as in date, not game day), and thoroughly analyze Toon tomorrow. I also am going to be suspicious of mastin if silver ends up scum (as he would have pushed the FoS scum buddy vote townie very very hard) but probably not if we get a town flip from silver.

[SubzeroSith]

As stated before, I am really only satisfied lynching silver.

I'm suspicious of Toon because of his earlier play, and because of his opportunistic re-voting of me.

I would like everyone to take a look at this post and this post. What is NS doing? Modding a new game and joining a VERY COMPLICATED theme game. What's he not doing? Playing this game. Lurking scum, good for lynching possibly tomorrow.

I see some of the points against Amor, but we've got bigger fishes to fry. I'll look at the cases against him in more detail tomorrow. Scummy, but lower on the priority list.

[SubzeroSith]

Ummm... why not? You are about to be lynched. You should be giving out your information as much as possible, not HIDING it.

^This. This. This.

That Silver is not being at all helpful with what little time he has left is another indication of scumminess. Someone hammer him, please.

Toon is still probscum. NS is still lurkerscum. But they can wait. Deadline is tomorrow.

[SubzeroSith]

Dude, you don't need an invitation to be forthright or to offer parting thoughts. You kinda get there in your post at the top of the page, but not really. Your one scumread is...us? C'mon.

I'd rather you didn't have to self-hammer, as that would deprive the town of an optimal amount of information about your wagon, regardless of how you flip. Someone should hammer you.

[SubzeroSith]

A few things...

First, Pine's vote is TERRIBLE. He has agreed with us (ICE and I) on both Toon and Silver, having been on the same wagon as us both times, but when crunch time happens and he gets scared off a wagon, what does he do? Completely forgets the scumread he has on Toon and votes for us without expressing any prior suspicion of this playslot. Seriously--check his ISO--nary a peep from him about us aside from at the very beginning when people wanted the hydra's identity verified. Pine reiterates his "suspicion" in #432, which is funny, because he said when he voted us that he didn't have time to consider it. Now, apparently, he has, and we're his #1. If Toon flips scum, I will demand a Pine lynch tomorrow.

@Surye: Why exactly are you convinced there has to be scum between us/Silver again? It seems like everyone is just saying there has to be a scum without actually, you know, saying why.

@Mastin: Why does townAmor = scumThor? Not following you there. If it is because Thor suspects Amor, you suspect Amor, too, so should we lynch you for a townAmor flip?

My scumread was also weakened by certain posts. More than that, Silver's opinions this game looked like--while not necessarily correct--they were on to something.

This is incredibly vague. Which posts? What opinions? Mastin, you just completely shook the game up, you should be giving us more information than this. (I can't believe I'm actually asking you to write more...)

Still would rather lynch Toon over Amor. So,

Unvote. Vote: Toon Fighter.

[SubzeroSith]

Seriously? You're trying to wipe your scum onto me?

I have never voted with you.

1

I voted for Silver for my own reasons, following my own logic.

It's shit like this

that make me certain that your argument with Silver was not Town v. Town.

2

You both employed tactics like this,

which are really just elaborate ad hominems and misrepresentation,

and at first

no one

could tell which of you was bad scum and which of you was bad Town. I chose Silver based on his performance in a previous game,

and I'm glad that Mastin has now set us back on the right track.

It now occurs to me that as soon as the Silver wagon picked up speed, you mostly dropped off the radar.

Now suspicion is back onto you in earnest, and you pick up your old scumtactics.

You're the lynch today, and with deadline fast approaching and plurality rules in effect,

I'd like to hear a claim out of you

.

SZS's guide to decoding Pine's scummy-ass reply:

Italics

indicates AtE.

Underlined

indicates exaggerations or misrepresentations. Pine voted with us on both Toon and Silver--we've basically been on the same bandwagons for almost all of D1. And we have not dropped off the radar--check our ISO. We have been one of the most active playslots in the game.

Bolded #1: That's not the point. You voted with us, as in, on the same person.

Bolded #2: Tactics like what? Picking apart posts? Guilty as charged.

Bolded #3: Of course scum want a claim out of us before we're at L-1.

PEdit--Mastin, since you're posting, I want answers, pronto.

[SubzeroSith]

I really, REALLY didn’t want to have to claim, but I am certain our wagon is scum-driven right now, and this might be the only way to get enough credibility within 18 hours to lynch one of those scum.

Claim:

Masons with Thor and Jmurph. We are confirmed town to one another and can communicate at Night. Also, note how they've been publicly adamant all along that this playslot is town. Buddies, I apologize if this means premature deaths for us.

Of the five players on our wagon, even if Mastin is gambiting scum, we shouldn’t be lynching him today in case he is who he says he is. DK is nullish as he gets a pass for the moment on grounds of cluelessness (no offense, dude), but among the other three—Pine/Toon/Surye—I am dead certain you will find at least 1-2 scum. Our suspicion of Toon is well-documented; Pine’s scumminess is admittedly somewhat by association w/ Toon, but how he reacted to my defense against his vote on us is independently scummy.

Finally, Surye’s ISO is stunning—only 10 posts, none of them with more than a few lines of text, and none of them providing warrants or reasons for his votes and claims. Let’s take a look:

#0: RVS
#1: Answering my RQS questions
#2: Declares V/LA
#3: First real attempt at content, givers a one-sentence reason for voting Amor.
#4: Expresses suspicion on Silver but does nothing else.
#5: Fluff.
#6: First expresses belief in the “one-of-silver-SZS-is-scum” theory, gives no reason for it.
#7: Briefly defends himself against suspicion from Silver.
#8: Answers a question from Maxous about the whole silver-SZS-association thing.
#9: Sheeps ScumPine and votes for us.

That’s it. Next to no scumhunting effort, next to no content, next to no explanation of votes. That look like town to you?

Everyone should unvote us right now and either lynch Toon with the guarantee that a scumflip from him means Pine goes into death stew tomorrow, or lynch Surye. You have 17 hours. Go.

[SubzeroSith]

Thor, sorry, but I (this is DY, so aim your ire at me, since it was my decision to claim) decided that only a partial mason claim would still run the risk of us being lynched as a plurality wagon because it wasn't confirmable, and lynching me would be bad, bad, bad. I actually went through several games to try to find instances of masons being forced to claim, and at least in the ones I looked at, they claimed truthfully. So I decided to do the same. I'm really sorry if I fucked that up.

@SZ - so who do you think was the scum pointedly avoiding you? There was at least one of those as well? I dig on KoC for voting Amor, but this is coming from the guy who was all buddy hugging Amor and attacking me for being scummy and leading lynches, and suddenly here he is riding my wagon of choice on his previous scumhunting partner in awesome, and not a whisper of comment about how here's Mr. Scummy Director screaming about this wagon he's suddenly joining. The fug?

It wouldn't surprise me to have a scum on Toon so as to be on the counter *cough*Amor*cough*.

I could definitely see Amor as being the scum avoiding my wagon. I need to re-read KoC myself, as I had some suspicions of him in the very early game but used one of his points in one of my more recent posts. For right now, I think Amor is more likely to be that scum.

Assuming a four-person scumteam, there actually may well be two scum off my wagon as well.

PEdit: Mastin, I claimed. Let's talk. I'm still waiting for answers to those questions I asked. We shouldn't lynch you today, obviously, but all this dodging from you is not what I am used to from TownYou.

[SubzeroSith]

I really don't get why people are giving mastin so much credibility. He seemed so intensely sure that I am scum, and so overly confident in his D1 VCA (that didn't even actually look at the votes themselves, how strong they were, just which order they were and time timing) and somehow people are still having faith in him.

His d1 claim was horrible. Because of him, instead of 1 claim, we now have 5. Granted he didn't know that it would end up as so many, but it would have still become 3. Lynching an anti-town player day 1 is completely FINE. You do NOT need to lynch scum on day 1 in order to win as town, and in fact the % chance of town winning after lynching town on day 1 isn't much different than the % chance of town winning after lynching scum on day 1.

The chance of town winning now that 4 power roles are outed on day 1 is, well, I'm not really putting much worry in to this game anymore.

Considering how close we were to the deadline when you did this claim, mastin, you screwed town really hard. If we had sufficient time to change gears and hit another player, it STILL would have been a bad move to out yourself just for 1 player like this.

Furthermore, it would have been a

much

better move to investigate me instead. Should we have investigated scum, you could have easily said "I investigated them, and they are scum" and we would have been lynched. We would have shown town, at which point you say "alright, I don't see town going force with a SZS lynch today, so I'll vote someone else." OR you could have just let it slide, said nothing, and let Mod's rule 7 take care of it and let silver be lynched even with your vote on confirmed town.

This has been a frustrating game indeed.

[SubzeroSith]

Instead of crying about the past events sub please ya know.. be helpful.

Something about pots, kettles, and the color black is coming to mind.

FTR, I'm not sure why casting doubt on Mastin's credibility is something that should be saved for postgame. If he is town, his play so far has been really quite poor. His two strongest scumreads have turned out to be town, VCAs are, at best, an art when there haven't been any flips, and because of his last minute daycop claim, we now have four outed PRs on D1, whereas before his claim, we had zero. The town SHOULD be wondering right now whether it is in their best interests to be so quick to follow his lead.

And, why does it matter which head posted the previous post? Just wondering.

@Pine: Why was that post so scummy to you? Because of all the players in the game, you've drunk the most of Mastin's Kool-Aid?

[SubzeroSith]

Well, for starters, you set out to

1

character-assassinate and discredit the claimed daycop,

2

criticize him for saving us from a mislynch,

3

express concern only with yourself,

4

continue to push against two nigh-confirmed Townies, and the whole post just reeks to high heaven.

I haven't drunk any kool-aid. Mastin and I disagree on so much across so many games, this is actually the first where I think we're both Town and we agree on most things.

5

Why does it bother you so much to have people outside your clique agreeing with each other?

1: Please point out where we have slandered, libeled, denigrated, or otherwise put down Mastin as a person. We've never called him names, never been uncivil, and criticizing his play is fair game. Just because someone is a PR doesn't mean you should blindly follow their lead.

2: We don't know yet that Mastin saved us from a mislynch. If we still mess up and lynch town today, we're in a WAY worse situation than before Mastin's claim.

3: Whut? We've been selfish...how? By fighting tooth and nail against the town lynching a PR?

4: Which two? And don't say Mastin. He's not confirmed town, not by a long shot.

5: Because if Mastin is who he says he is, I think you're probscum buddying up to a town PR so that he doesn't investigate you.

PEdit: Yes, Silver, I'm town, you're town. I'm not arguing you're a godfather. I'm not interested in discrediting you personally, but I don't think your's and Pine's defenses of Mastin are holding water. The latter is not the same as the former. And in case you care, this is DY.

[SubzeroSith]

Silver, we'll probably have to agree to disagree, then. For whatever it is worth, a number of players have pointed out this is an un-Mastin use of his cop PR. I do think that examining Mastin's strategic decisions is important at the moment--it may or may not determine alignment, but reorienting the town may be something to consider, that's all. Not saying Mastin is a bad person or a bad player (my first game here was with him as an IC and it was an extremely enjoyable game, and he actually DID correctly call the scumteam on D1 then), but, at least sitting from my vantage point, it is difficult to see how Mastin's play has helped the town particularly if we still end up lynching a townie. That's all.

-Darth

[SubzeroSith]

Your whole post is an attack on Mastin.

You are very careful not to insult or personally attack him

, but everything you said (and much of what you have said since) are attempts to dismiss or discredit him, his reads, and the results of his investigation. Why are you doing this?

Emphasis mine. I don't think it's because we're careful, it's that ICE and I are generally decent human beings and don't tend to personall insult someone (just their spelling, har har har). In any case, IT ISN'T CHARACTER ASSASSINATION. Stop using such emotionally-laden language to mislabel something. Character assassination is defamation of character. We did no such thing.

Additionally, we didn't try to discredit the results of the investigation--did you miss the immediate post above where we say Silver is town?

Finally, why are we doing this? Again--either Mastin is scum, or Mastin is town. If it is the former, well, y'all will probably lynch him before LyLo anyways. But if it is the latter, his play has not, imo, been good for the town, but y'all are following him anyways. So, we are trying to get town to rethink that. That's it.

Are you high? Cop. Cop has innocent. Confirmed mislynch < possible mislynch

If this was the case, cops would always claim on D2 whenever an innocent result they had got voted. C'mon.

Do you not get how the chances of town mislynching were still quite high after Mastin's claim? It was FOR SURE going to happen (on us) if we didn't claim.

So...Mastin should have spent his daycop power on someone who wasn't the leading lynch? Instead, he used it on someone who he had a gut feeling was about to be mislynched, confirmed them, and saved us from mislynching?

YES. You yourself noted that it went against Mastin's game theory in your ISO #33. Investigating the scummiest-looking player is usually a wasted investigation. Why are you changing your tune now?

I was talking about you and your Masonbuddies. The fact that you subconsciously, absent-mindedly don't include you and your buddies in the confirmed Townie category is extremely suspicious.

First, why are you scumhunting on confirmed town? This plus your #501 of trying to still subtly throw suspicion on us is bad. Unlike what we are saying about Mastin--which is, basically, hey, let's reconsider the influence we're giving this guy--you're still saying, "Hey, SZS is still might be scum."

Second, your original question was worded as us "pushing against two nigh-confirmed townies." How does that at all describe our mason buddies? Jmurph is on the Toon wagon with us. We've been working in concert with Thor on Amor; yes, our vote is on Toon, but Amor is the leading wagon atm, so it's not like switching now makes a functional difference.

[SubzeroSith]

@Thor:

@SZ - Is Mastin a shinign wall of super brilliant play? Naaaah. But is he scum? I seriously doubt it. So unless you seriously think we should be lynching Mastin today how about we just settle for noting that if he makes it to the day before lylo he should probably be lynched, and leave it at that. Please? Thank you.

To clarify, this is basically what we've been saying all along. We aren't saying, and haven't said, that Mastin needs to be lynched today.

Lips are now zipped.

[SubzeroSith]

I want Toon lynched.

Look at his reactions to be being voted, and his re-vote of me. Terrible stuff.

I'm OK with Amor being lynched. I'm OK with Pine being lynched. I'd tolerate NS, nhammen, and Zepher.