Open 306: Lovers Mafia: Empking Checkmate (OVER)

[Fenchurch]

Err.... /bonus confirm

[Fenchurch]

How do you feel about the game, Emp? Confident? Eager? Apprehensive?

[Fenchurch]

Hang on what? I don't see a confirm from C-Worl. Confirmed in the scum thread?

VOTE: C-Worl

[Fenchurch]

And Emp, how come you didn't answer my earlier question? And what do you think of my vote right now?

[Fenchurch]

Thank you.

And really? Have you never been in a game where a mod error inadvertantly gave a clue as to who the scum was?

[Fenchurch]

From a thread in MD right now, about how mods require confirmations:

Likewise, I also take posting in a scum qt as a confirmation for scum who actively avoid confirming.

It certainly doesn't seem out of the question for that to be what happened here. I'm not sure why you seem to think it's so unlikely.

Everyone else: where are you? What are your comments on this?

[Fenchurch]

UNVOTE:

If what Fenchurch said was true and C-Worl claimed in the scum-quicktopic, I'd expect the mod to just state that C-Worl confirmed by PM, instead of saying it was a mistake.

I agree with this, I think.

Fenchurch, Mist hadn't confirmed in the thread either when you first accused C-Worl. Why didn't you mention her, too?

Ghostlin said he received a PM confirmation from Mist, but didn't mention C-Worl.

Rethinking...

Mist: When you voted C-Worl, the moderator had already posted an explanation for the confirmation error. Did you believe the explanation or not? Why did you still vote C-Worl?

[Fenchurch]

If the Mafia actually is Crazy & Chk (as the vote count makes me wonder)

How does the votecount imply that? Neither Crazy nor chk have voted so far.

chk - you noted that C-Worl was at L-1, but you didn't comment on the reasons people have voted for him or defended him. What did you think about those? What do you think are the chances of him being scum, currently?

[Fenchurch]

Empking is saying the votecount makes him think they might be mafia, not town.

[Fenchurch]

Read what you just quoted, Mist.

[Fenchurch]

Crazy, what are your thoughts on the Mist wagon? Earlier you asked Emp whether he saw Mist's actions then as scum, null or town. What would your answer have been? And how about now?

[Fenchurch]

^ hosepipe?

Mist: You seem to be insisting that you haven't misread anything.

(Oh yeah. If the Mafia actually is Crazy & Chk

(as the vote count makes me wonder)

then I'm going to be very sad.)

To me it seems like he would be sad if they were mafia so he thinks them town

See the bolded bit. The votecount makes him wonder if Crazy and chk are the mafia. To get your interpretation, you have to totally ignore that bit.

Do you think what Emp said was suspicious? Do you think the people voting you have good reason to do so? Do you think they are scum?

Still waiting for Crazy to answer my question.

[Fenchurch]

Okay. And the other three questions? Or any other comments you have on the game so far?

[Fenchurch]

Mod: prod Crazy please?

[Fenchurch]

I'm not a scum-partner. If Mist is mafia, then from my perspective, Crazy must be the buddy. I was really hoping to hear from him on the case before I made my thoughts known, to better gauge his reactions - but right now it seems like this is holding the game back.

My read on Mist is mostly scummy-to-null. Sure, she's made misunderstandings on most of the game so far, and weak votes on people. But she seems to do that stuff whether she's mafia or town. For reference, here's a game where she was town: Newbie 1058
and mafia: Newbie 1067

With a Lovers set-up, it seems like the best way to hunt is to look for ties between the mafia. That's why I was hoping to hear from Crazy first.

[Fenchurch]

Blargh.

In my last game I decided a lurker (Fritzler) was town, and passed up two opportunities to hammer. I was stupid and wrong.

I think there's a decent chance Mist and Crazy are scum together - from their interactions before he went missing, Crazy seemed weakly opposed to the Mist wagon, eg. suggesting that she might have just made a mistake, and questioning whether people's votes were serious. Is this what a scum-lover reaction would look like? He couldn't openly defend her since that would make it obvious. And because of Mist's enthusiasm at the prospect of a marathon-style early bandwagon.

I think Mist is always somewhat unreadable, and there's one way to find out for sure.

VOTE: Mist7676

[Fenchurch]

Why Crazy, Emp? It would have made sense if Mist was scum, but I can't see any reason if she's not.

[Fenchurch]

Based on what, C-Worl? Emp said process of elimination, which I could understand earlier, as Crazy hadn't contributed much then. But I think his posts just now have been fairly solid.

What I've seen so far, is you (and Emp) calling for lynches on a lot of traditional "easy targets" - the VI; the lurker; the hammer. I'm not sure I like that.

[Fenchurch]

In lylo, I'd prefer to lynch scum rather than just a lurker. And I can understand Crazy being classified as lurker before those posts, but now I think he's contributed as much as others.

C-Worl - 10 posts
chkflip - 12 posts
Crazy - 13 posts
Empking - 29 posts
Fenchurch - 18 posts

[Fenchurch]

Votechart for Day 1, for reference:


chk: you didn't give much of an explanation when you voted for Mist. What was your reason at the time?

[Fenchurch]

Everybody notice that fully coloured in multi-colour column? THAT's how you do it.

Throwing your vote around with little-to-no explanation or justification, you mean?

It might make sense in the early stages of a larger game, but in a small game with only a two-lynch threshold it seems like it could be a good scum tactic.

[Fenchurch]

Chk: Honestly I'd ber more comfortable with lynching Fenchurch because I think she's pretending to be useful more than Crazy plus she's defending Crazy.

Defending Crazy doesn't make me his partner. And I'm not defending him, I'm just pointing out why your attacks seem weak and scummy. So far the whole of your argument is based on Crazy's absence at the end of D1, for which he has given a reason. Meanwhile you've given zero explanation for why your voting pattern (and your throwing around senseless accusations) isn't scummy.

[Fenchurch]

That's why you threw votes on 3 different players on D1 of your previous Lovers game? As scum?

[Fenchurch]

Hiraki.

[Fenchurch]

Fench, who's your scumteam pick?

I dunno. At this moment.. Empking and somebody else. But I acknowledge that it is difficult to pair Emp up, because he voted for everyone but me and Crazy on D1, and he's attacked both of us on D2.

I guess my top pick for a buddy would be C-Worl. Emp did get on the C-Worl wagon early in the game, but he got off again pretty quickly, and he gave no reasoning for the change in mind at either point.

@Fenchurch/chk - What are the odds of one of you lynching the other today?

I don't know. I was finding it hard to pin anything on chk. But then when he was scum in the last Lovers game he did a fairly good job of looking pro-town.

Actually reading back, he hasn't said much about his suspicions. He says that C-Worl is his top pick for scum now, but hasn't really said why.

I don't like lynching someone just because they fit with multiple partners - I've seen that fail more often than not. I'd prefer to lynch the scummiest player. What makes chk seem more scummy to you than Emp and C-Worl?

I see some scummy things coming from Fenchurch (like IIoA), so I might be comfortable with a Fenchurch lynch.

I don't see anything wrong with asking questions so we have more information to go on. And I have given analysis as well. I think that the way Emp is playing is scummy, and C-Worl. Both of them provide zero rational explanation for their actions, instead just insisting that the things they say are true. I think this benefits a scum player than a town one.

I'd like to hear everyone else's comments on Empking.

[Fenchurch]

How likely do you see him as scum/town/null?

[Fenchurch]

Can everyone please supply their top 2 scum-team picks? For instance, mine are Fenchurch/chk as #1 and Empking/C-Worl as #2

Empking/C-Worl
Crazy/chk

[Fenchurch]

Most people a vote with out explanation would be scum but that's Emp's MO so I went back and looked and saw what was probably his reason.

What was the reason that you saw?

I think Emp's playstyle (forceful, no explanations) benefits him more as scum than town.

Your reason for voting me at the beginning was stupid but I wasn't sure if you were eager scum or just stupid town.

Disagree. It could have been a good reason, but was made null by the mod's explanation.

Fenchurch/chk seem to be more wishy-washy in regards to that, even though it's clear neither of them will support a lynch of the other.

You say it's wishy-washy but I'm just being honest - I don't know the answers.

[Fenchurch]

Well, all I'm saying is that from your perspective, if chk was town, then scum would have won anyway, since they could quickhammer, unless if chk unvoted.

Probably C-Worl isn't worried about a quickhammer since he's scum, and thinks that he'll find it easier to get a lynch on me

But I don't know. I'm here, and I'm not quickhammering. I need to think about this.

[Fenchurch]

Well, chk + Crazy are cleared for me now.

VOTE: Empking

[Fenchurch]

This isn't my first game where scum have pulled a gambit and it's paid off. In my last game (which Emp was also in), the scum cross-bussed for the whole game, right from the start of Day 1, and as a result, nobody ever seriously considered them being on the same team. Sure, you couldn't get away with that in a Lovers game, so Emp voted C-Worl at the start, at a point where the case on him had already been squashed, and it was enough to keep them out of the pairings and off the radar.

Whereas I've been paired with just about everybody throughout the course of the game, and that's because I haven't been concerned with distancing, or keeping myself out of the crosshairs.

As far as I can tell, at the start of Day 2, Emp and C-Worl figured Crazy was an easy mislynch, since he'd been absent and so hadn't contributed so much. Then I made it clear that I didn't think he was all that scummy, whilst at the same time he named me in a number of his pairings, and they decided I was an easier lynch.

For all Emp accuses other people of not scumhunting, he's done basically no scumhunting or analysis himself, instead just claiming that the things he does are obviously pro-town, and that his chosen targets are obviously scum. Unfortunately, rhetoric can be good for convincing other people, even if it's not backed up by any real evidence.

Crazy, chk, I don't know if you've made your minds up already. But please read back through the game first, and if there's anything you want me to explain, let me know.

[Fenchurch]

Most people a vote with out explanation would be scum but that's Emp's MO so I went back and looked and saw what was probably his reason.

What was the reason that you saw?

I already answered that.

Oh yeah, I looked back at this, and you really didn't answer it. Your answer is "because you entered the game" and that he voted Mist "cuz he can". Neither of those is a good reason.

[Fenchurch]

We managed to wrest that lynch from scum in order to lynch our weak lynch. That's a good thing.

This makes so little sense. In what way is pushing for the "weak lynch" good townie behaviour?

[Fenchurch]

Ha ha ha. If we didn't lynch Mist yesterday then it'd (IMO) have been impossible to lynch scum. When Mist was given a choice: Mist or chk for the lynch she chose herself. That tells you everything you need to know.

What does it tell you? If Mist had turned up scum then it might have said a lot. As she wasn't, all it tells us that a townie (Mist) didn't want to lynch another townie (chk).

[Fenchurch]

You weren't the first one to vote. Chk voted first today. If he were town then he would know that if he voted first scum would've quick hammered and since I know my alignment I know if that Chk were town the game would be over by now. So Chk has to be scum.

And if

you

were town, you would have known that by not counter-voting chk, you were opening the town up to more scum quicklynch opportunities. Your vote on me at that point makes no sense as town. The only reason is, you thought you could get a mislynch on me more easily.

[Fenchurch]

chk, what are you thinking now? You said you don't have a clear scumread. What information do you need?

[Fenchurch]

His vote was on you long enough for a quick hammer to occur if he was town and you were town.

BS. The vote was on Crazy for 1 hour 15 minutes. Emp was online during that time, but it looks like you weren't.

In the last two Lovers games, mafia took 12 hours and 7 hours to get together for the quickhammer. In one, chk made a distraction post in the meantime to show he was online and not hammering; in the other, Hoopla and Haylen lurked and communicated in the qt until they were both online together.

[Fenchurch]

Way to go Crazy!! <3 <3 <3

[Fenchurch]

Yeah, I am happy with the quicktopic being revealed, and chk has already given the link I believe.

This was a very tight game. With the number of people tunnelling on me; or putting both of the scumteam as suspects; C-Worl's #158; Crazy going into endgame saying that he would probably end up voting for me; and that he didn't like chk's lurking just recently, I honestly wasn't expecting to see a win.

The whole "mod error" case I made at the start of the game is something I would've done as scum or town. I've seen modslips give clues away, and I'm not gonna pass up an opportunity to see if that's the case.

I'd say my screwups began with the Mist wagon. I'd been hoping to bounce off Crazy's reaction, but when he went AWOL I had to either find my own reason to cast the hammer, or risk the wagon moving elsewhere - potentially onto me for being unwilling to vote her. C-Worl was right when he suggested that I hammered to prove I wasn't Mist's partner.

Following that on Day 2, I regret interfering with the case on Crazy, in retrospect I was probably just making things difficult for us. I was trying to follow my town meta, and I now think that is a silly strategy as scum, especially since I have been lynched as town. I doubt anyone even checked meta, and if they had, it probably wouldn't have been that hard to defend against. If I'd left that case alone, or encouraged it, maybe we'd have had an easy Day 2 lynch. Although I was concerned that people might be put off by an strongly-supported wagon, since in a Lovers setup, there needs to be a buddy.

A missed opportunity, perhaps, was me or chk voting for each other early Day 1. That would have kept us out of Crazy's PoE pairings, and probably wouldn't have been too dangerous if we chose the right point. I thought that Emp's vote on C-Worl could have been a dealbreaker to my case on them, especially when I looked back through all the previous Lovers games and couldn't find a single case where mafia placed a vote on their buddy. Maybe next time...

---

Mist: Thanks for getting lynched Day 1! But really, I don't know if I have any comments or advice, besides working on your comprehension. It's hard to play with you when you don't seem to understand what people are saying.

Emp & C-Worl: It could have easily gone the other way in this game. I don't subscribe with your scumhunting methods (and would probably always find it scummy were I town), but in this case you did strike true. Your downfall was only at the end, trying to support it with false arguments or cyclical logic... I was almost believing my own case on you.

Crazy: I'm sorry that we weren't on the same team after all. I like your playstyle, and hope maybe we will be in future.

chk: Sorry if I was a liability to you! This was my first proper game as scum, besides marathons. You played well, no faults that I could see.

Ghostlin: Solid, attentive modding. You reacted well to my opening gambit.

Overall, this was an interesting game, and I've enjoyed playing with a group of enthusiastic and active players. Thanks.

[Fenchurch]

-Empking and C-Worl's buddying up to me towards the end made me feel uncomfortable. Mainly Empking's "If you're smart, you'll vote Fenchurch" and C-Worl's Post #227.

Hah, the funny thing is, when I saw these posts I was thinking "damn, wish I'd thought to say that!"