The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[GreyICE]

Hi. The Unicorns are out for blood.

We will be happy with goring any of the following:

-DaSpotthatkillsu (<deadweight/scum)
-Greymarble (<scum)
-FinalDestination (<kickingscreamingweight)
-Mystery player (<obvscum)

The unicorns are out of brains.

Copper was fucking excellent posting, <3 whoever the hell makes up that hydra.

BTW, this hydra has a natural flow because all the posts stem from a single source

[GreyICE]

Unvote

No more fucking unicorn hammers

[GreyICE]

You're preaching to the choir on lurking being a scumtell. I've made that argument myself. And I just don't see it for Gummybear.

Doing a solid reread now.

[GreyICE]

MEH

NO

I HAVE QUESTION NOW. QUESTION BE ANSWERED

THEN VOTE. TOMORROWS VOTE MAY BE DECIDED BY QUESTION

[GreyICE]

So why spot? Honestly, why flip to him? I just don't feel this spot = scum bit. Or this FD = scum, but that's less relevant.

[GreyICE]

I'll put together a case Copper, but at the moment you are scummy because you are pushing a weak case far harder than it deserves. LAL on daspot when he explained the difference between lurking and what he thought BW was doing? Weaksauce. Too hard for too little - that was an honest read, and you yell LAL?

FES town is MUCH weaker, but spotty is TOWN. And on top of that you are overplaying a weak hand for your case. I dun like it copper.

[GreyICE]

» Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:36 am CONTENT = WALL
» Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:04 am CONTENT = ANYONE NOT VOTING FES IS SCUMMY
» Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:52 am CONTENT = CATCHUP LATER
» Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:26 pm CONTENT = SCUMPLAIN NO CATCHUP
» Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:39 pm CONTENT = NOW SOMEONE HAMMER OBV

SUDDENLY LOTS OF CONTENT FROM GUMMYBEAR

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[GreyICE]

Past couple of pages:
Re: Copper question about UB's points we agree with...will go back and check in a few hours.

Oh look Lord's talking about animosity between heads...gofuckingfigure he'd allow that to waffle over his reads.

How are we waffling over our reads, exactly?

We're voting you, and stating that you are very scummy.

We have expressed a strong town read on UB. Since we're different people, it's obvious that there are going to be some issues we're not in unison over. The two reads to whom that really applies are FD and FES.

THIS

THIS ENORMOUS CHANGE IN READ

IT IS VERY SCUMMY

[GreyICE]

YFC's interactions with Fonzi even call out Fonzi for ignoring them.

Oh YFC... what do you think of ol' Fonz Fonz ignoring you right now? You seemed to drop it, despite keeping a record of every little thing DaSpot has done.

I was unhappy with Fonz, and starting to wonder about his alignment, when he was seemingly ignoring everything I said, even posts specifically directed to him about Froggy, while his vote on Froggy.

His posts since then, though, have struck me as pretty pro-town.

Well since you're here Yos, comment on this for me:

What gives you a pro-town feeling from Fonz?

He wants to lurker lynch, which is at best neutral, he pushes Gummybear right up until a wagon shows up then he panics, and his response to Llamarble was just lolz.

Specifics on why he's a town read.

[GreyICE]

We had it most of the way down by the end of day 2 even if we fucked up on FES. Can't believe Copper wasn't autolynched when we died. Hey PC, you noted that you didn't think we looked 'very townie' when you replaced in, and were going to take a hard look at me D3. And we died. So why do you think we were killed? Power Role hunting, 'obvtown' status, or reads?

HINT: IT WASN'T THE FIRST TWO. THOUGH MISLYNCHING US WOULD HAVE BEEN A TRIP. YOS WOULD HAVE HELPED BUT THE REST OF THE SCUM TEAM MIGHT NOT HAVE.

I mostly blame Fate and town retardation. Fate just needed this argument: "I said I'd never lynch Copper, Grey was going to kill him D3, Grey's dead. Lynch Copper." Claiming cop to counterclaim Balam just made the entire dead thread collectively facepalm.

I have to give Yos mad props though. Mafia Traitor is a tough role to play, but he correctly identified the scumteam and defended them at every opportunity.

P.S. Does anyone read what the night kill victims wrote with the idea that 'hey, they're obviously town the scum wanted dead?' Or is it just me?
P.P.S. Llamarble is an awesome hydra buddy. Maaaannnn he's good at analysis and keeping my wackier ideas in check (he shot down the Balam thing so hard, but agreed with the Copper one). We'll be around if he's still game

[GreyICE]

P.S. Does anyone read what the night kill victims wrote with the idea that 'hey, they're obviously town the scum wanted dead?' Or is it just me?

I did. We didn't kill you because of your scum reads, which seemed flimsy and changeable, we killed you because your town reads were bang on. That bit about 'scum is not found by playing pick three of...' sealed your fate. All those players were town. That said, y'know, you'd even said you wanted to lynch UB before you died.

That said, this was a tricky game to be scum in. Gurgi and I joined because we wanted to scumhunt together, and it was hard adapting to being scum. I think the same may be true of Reckamonic. The reads on which Gurgi based his early play were made before we even knew we were scum- he genuinely didn't get the FES hate.

I said I wanted to lynch UB. I didn't say he was scum. There's a total and complete difference - I believe my last post on the matter was that he was town, but if we wanted to policy lynch he was the best damn policy lynch ever.

I was onto you and Copper, and FES was... god... I've NEVER seen scum defended that hard by town. I figured Yos was white knighting - that argument for FES being town was so insanely bad that I figured it HAD to be made by scum who'd been backed into a corner by white knighting a scummy townie who just refused to play in any sort of pro-town manner.

[GreyICE]

Thanks Copper. Hydraing with Llamarble was HUGE for me. He's an utter beast when it comes to long-term reasoned analysis and telling me to 'stfu about dumb stuff' which he always phrases more politely, but which nine in ten (if not more) he's dead on about. If he's game, you're going to see that hydra a lot more, he really, really helps my play (I dunno how I effect his, hopefully pretty good). What was scary was the number of times I'd post something in the thread, pop open the QT and see... the same thing (yes, I often posted before checking QT. I is baaaadd hydra buddy).

Balam

- my push day 2 was entirely legit, but by the end I did read you as town. The exact problem I had was exactly what I said in the thread (and others are saying in the post game) - you relied on these "AIM Convos" for reads, and we never got to see the reasoning. It occurred to me that was a

great

way for scum to justify wagon hops. Like "Oh hai, Ray Frost convinced us because of X and Y that THIS PERSON is the right wagon!"

I read your response as town (not that I didn't enjoy tweaking your nose). I think the way you were playing was generally anti-town in that regard, but you were town. If Equinox, Frost, and AGar had been presenting their reasoning in the thread, I think there would have been two pro-town effects. First, a lot more discussion (this is cool), and second, you could have found holes in your ideas and refined your good points, as well as moved more analytical townies along. Near the end of day 2 and day 3 you moved to that style which was a lot better.

Fonz

- I really wish you'd stop saying that you were playing like town. You were playing pretty much exactly like scum. I'm not going through the damn thread to explain exactly why you were scum, but you really were. The gummybear wagon cemented it. Your reaction to that was as scum as scum could be.

Copper

- I enjoyed reading every one of your posts, even when I realized you were scum. Your exact fuck up was that little joke I slipped in about Llamarble in the QT. I didn't have you down as obvtown before that, but anyone as analytical as you would have pegged that I was making a joke about the argument me and Balam were having (it is frustrating, neh?). Also your interaction pattern was scummy. You were pushing mislynches and making active town players feel like you were interacting with them. But you weren't pushing marginally active town players, or players you were letting 'slide' and it really showed.

Yos

- From the dead thread:

Guys, guys, I figured it out.

Yos is actually on the scumteam. The real scum are doing less to protect scum and lynch town than he is.

You never ever ever did any pro-town things at all, and I don't care what the scum say. Your argument on FES town looked like it was DESIGNED to MAKE me want to lynch him. It really felt like you were scum white knighting for a townie because I couldn't buy anyone making that as a serious argument.

Fate/AGM

- http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=11

I will beat AGM with a sack of rocks.
He should die. That's unacceptable play for newbies in F11.
Unacceptable. Play. For. Newbies. In. F11.

Go there, play games until you know not to do that.

Other than that I was very impressed. But seriously, one action undid EVERYTHING you did.

[GreyICE]

GreyICE don't you tell ME to go to play in newbie games you fuckwad.

I'm growing tired of your arrogance, you're still newer to this site to me. The fact that TIME AND AGAIN in multiple games you judge other players from your high horse rather than objectively looking at what they were doing and what information they had and the gamestate at that time is fucking STUPID.

Its easy to sit in a dead qt and scream WHY WONT THEY LYNCH SCUM, its also very naive.

Its more a showing of an experienced player to sit in a dead qt and predict the way things actually WILL go based on the game at the time and the information availabe to the players IN that game.

It was a gambit, a GAMBLE, that Yos and Balam were scum and we were not. Since we were being lynched anyway with the way momentum was swinging, I'd take that gamble everytime.

So shove that newbie queue link up your ass.

No dude, it's not arrogance.

YOU DO NOT FAKECLAIM COP AND YOU DO NOT FAKECLAIM COP GUILTIES

JESUS CHRIST

Call it arrogance, call it what you want. Towns are EATEN by that sort of bullshit.

[GreyICE]

Its no different than talking to GreyICE outside of the game and realizing he's a pathological liar.

...

What?

I'm really fucking curious about this one. Are you just needling me? Because outside of Mafia games I've told the truth pretty much everywhere on this site.

[GreyICE]

Its was just an analogy with no real basis in reality, aka anyone's name could've been substituted.

I do enjoy the reaction though <3

I actually do kind of take pride in the fact that I don't lie about out of game stuff or myself. I might not say anything about a subject, but I won't lie.

I've never taken a fake VLA, I've never faked an illness or sickness as a reason I wasn't posting (the one time I said I was sick I was running a fever of ~102 for about a week and vomiting on and off), I've never lied about my age, gender, or anything I'm doing outside of game.

Everything IN a game is, as they say, fair game.

[GreyICE]

Cool story, like I said it wasn't something I was stating as fact or opinion

I may be arrogant. But you getting off criticizing me on that is something.

[GreyICE]

Uh... no. I'd say by the end of day 2 I was pretty certain of Yosarian's alignment.

I was wrong, but I was certain. I could not fathom him being town in any reality. I still have trouble reading this thread and wrapping my head around the concept of town-Yosarian.

[GreyICE]

Gummy was driving me insane as well. I can't say it was a horrible wagon. US was much worse, and that one was partially my fault.

I mean seriously every post was 'catchup soon!' It was horrifying.

[GreyICE]

It's just that I think you could have gotten out of the lynch in many other ways.

I dunno why you didn't claim that your gambit was to claim a strong townread to my strong copper scumread and see which one of us got night killed.

[GreyICE]

Grey I'm done responding to you until you pull your head out of your ass, apologize, and realize that "Oh look Grey died instead of us, ergo Copper is scum" Rest of town: "OK FAYTE, VOTE: COPPER" would not have happened. Yes we could've gotten out of the lynch maybe, but gotten out of it AND lynched our strongest scumread at the time? (Yos?) Not without that gambit.

Our Yos scumread turned out to be wrong, just as his scumread on US turned out to be wrong. The way we dealt with our scumread on him was unconventional and yes, "bad" in hindsight. But it DID get Copper to scumslip and lead to his lynch at least, which is what Grey wanted all along so *SHRUG*.

Everyone's acting like it lost town the game, like we did it at LyLo or something and forced a 1v1 where it would've lost. "BUT FATE IF YOU HAD LYNCHED BALAM YOU WOULDA LOST THENEXT DAY"

Meh, not if town slowed down and thought about things first. I mean I know Yos could've quickvoted us, butif Balam flipped town Role Cop I'd consider Yos town, which would make me re-evaluate everything and have better reads. From there it would've just been explaining our gambit and lynching scum.

Instead we were lynched first, Balam was cleared as a role cop, Copper was outed, and town COULD"VE still won. Yos quickvoted at LyLo though, and THAT cost the town the game LITERALLY. Sure a lot of things lead up to it including our mislynch, but VOTING TOWN AT LYLO is the coup de grace. Specially when UB should've been the strongest town read in the game due to circumstantial evidence, AND PC should've been re-evaluated (from Yos' view) when it turned out OH YEAH FD WASNT scum with him.

I said already that outside of your fakeclaim your play was pretty good, and I stand by that. Especially given the quality of participation in this game. I already said I had a nightmarishly strong scumread on Yos' slot, and lynching Yos was fine by me. I didn't have a strong scumread on Balam's slot, but fighting their rolecop clear of Yos was again fine.

You did NOT lose the town the game. That was probably done when we didn't lynch FES day 2, and CERTAINLY done when a bunch of derps decided to lynch you day 3. Sorry for not hammering FES. I really should have. That the wagon on you was not dismissed as horseshit was ridiculous. There was a tons of garbage play lying about (the point where I realized DaSpot probably belonged near the midway point in terms of town play from the deadthread was about where I realized we were all doooooooomed).

But the cop fakeclaim was a terrible fucking idea. I've like... never seen it go well in F11, and more experience doesn't make it go better here. I mean why would TBM even PUT a full cop in a game designed to see how well Hydras can scumhunt? Because follow the cop is so damn amazing?

[GreyICE]

He was at L-1 for a while, and I wanted to wait for marble to discuss dropping a damn hammer. Then charlie the unicorn unvoted so he could hammer, then things just went sideways, and we ended up lynching GummyBear.

[GreyICE]

Yes actually, I was pushing Copper, Fonzi, and Balam. From the way the game was flowing, I knew that some of our better players were scum. The game just had too damn little direction for it to be the team of "FES the hydra no one pays attention to, Yos the hydra everything thinks is scum, and BW/SVT the flakomatic."

Since once good players establish a foothold as TOWN you're finished, I wanted them outed day 2. I'm not even sure I'd have gone along with the Gummy wagon too hard, but then GummyBear posted "You can't lynch me, I'm not one of the two big wagons!"

For others reading this, word of advice: Don't post that.

[GreyICE]

Damn Ether that's some solid tracks for D1.

Marble... I think we were both too tentitive in the hydra run. I know in a do-over I would have agreed to hammer after you made that post.

[GreyICE]

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreads ... utput=html

Here's ours, marble agreed this was a good idea.

Feel free to make fun of exactly how random my reads are at any given time.

[GreyICE]

Can't post the QT because we're very smart and started another game with the hydra and... used the same QT.

[GreyICE]

Fonz

- I really wish you'd stop saying that you were playing like town. You were playing pretty much exactly like scum. I'm not going through the damn thread to explain exactly why you were scum, but you really were. The gummybear wagon cemented it. Your reaction to that was as scum as scum could be.

I really fail to see how continuing to push a lynch you were already pushing once other people start to join it is a scummy thing to do.

What really fucking bothers me about this is you're probably going to turn around next time we're in a game together and I'm town and try to make out that I'm scum for attacking a newer player who is doing something massively scummy and antitown. 'Defend all the VIs' will not always work.

I feel like I'm getting told something that is just wrong here. First, DaSpot was obvtown. Attacking them was scummy. But second, what I was discussing wasn't your push against gummybear. It was a combination of things.

1) You thought I was pushing FES very hard when I wasn't. It showed a clear lack of connection with the thread.
2) Commentary on Yos - none. If FES was town, and DaSpot was scum, Yos should have been down as a STRONG town read. But he barely showed up.
3) http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2946304

Dude. A gummy wagon shows up. So basically, a wagon moves off someone you have a middling town read on and moves onto your strongest scumread and you... do nothing except more or less ignore it and comment on some stuff.

Oh gods yes you were scum thank you very much.

So get off your damn high horse. I read you correctly.

[GreyICE]

Foooonnnzzzz

I don't care if it was you or Gurgi. Gawds. One thing that made this game suck was all the useless metaing going on. You were one player, your slot had one role, that role was scum.

[GreyICE]

Also... one little line is not it. You weren't playing off Yos like town does with strong town reads. You weren't interacting with them. You weren't building cases and wagons with them. You weren't treating them like town.

I mean you can type whatever, but you weren't playing as if you were both town.

[GreyICE]

...

Fonz... you were the same player.

[GreyICE]

We never said "you CAN'T lynch us." We said you SHOULDN'T lynch us until you got more information from the larger wagons. I stand by that. Yes, we kind of walked into our lynch after having been V/LA for so long, but we were town. We weren't shaking in our boots.

We were dealing with ignorant arguments and trying to figure out the mess that was town. BECAUSE of that, the ONLY good play would've been to lynch daspot of FES. If those wagons hadn't been in existence for so long, yes, our take on that would've been different.

I'm sorry that GreyICE felt cheated because he made the wrong decision out of haste.

Not really. I feel we made a decent decision.

We'd indeed get more info out of the other two wagons, but town should never be afraid to switch up a wagon if they think it's on town, or just not productive. Lynching scum > Getting information.

A good answer would have been "We are behind, but we're town, and FES is scum for X, Y, and Z." Or hell, DaSpot. "Lynch one of the two but not us!" just sounds like you're scum and both wagons were town wagons.

[GreyICE]

Are we seriously not getting the scum QT over that?