The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Copper]

Greetings, and hello again to those we've played with before.

We will not be revealing our heads.

However, for those interested in meta, Copper has five completed games:

Mini 934 - Vanilla Town
Open 223 - Town Doctor (This game was a six-page travesty - unhelpful for reads)
Mini 999 - Vanilla Town
Open 244 - Werewolf
Mini 1072 - Town Undercover Reflex Guard

We have done some reading overnight but are not completely caught up. Replacing in with Copper is a new experience.

[Copper]

Moderator:

Please place the deadline, "to-lynch" thresholds, and a list of players currently not voting in every vote count. It takes minimal effort and makes your game extremely onerous to play when they are lacking.

---

Balam:

An explanation of our lacking presence: we had decided pre-game to have this hydra be a one head posts style hydra. Our inspiration for this was the high quality of play from copper, a well known hydra.

Thank you for the endorsement.

And actually, we are not a "one head posts" hydra. We do strive for a similarity in posting style and convergence in reads so that reading us is the same as reading a normal player.

Balams style of one head posting had some bad early game lurking. However, this is fairly understandable and more of a null tell than anything. It’s very easy for one person to fall behind, and it’s doubly so if they are not allowed to call "V/LA" or "busy with other games". Without recourse to these as an anonymous hydra, we have to be a little more lenient on the single-head flaking.

Interestingly, after claiming their heads to help explain their activity failure, it has been exclusively Equinox posting in the thread. The optimistic interpretation is that Equinox has found more time and is going back to being the "posting head." However, now that we know the identities of the involved players, I’m curious as to why Rayfrost and AGar are not posting in thread.

Equinox’s running thoughts wall seems unlikely to be coming from a scum perspective. However, the simple truth is that there really isn’t much to Balam besides Equinox’s walls. The recent post 360 is good, and we hope to see more posts like it.

Balam will be a very powerful force if town, but by the same token we have to be careful with them. We have a town read on Balam, but a posting style like Equiniox's is going to look town regardless of alignment, and we have to ensure we aren't snared by that bias.

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Beaver Weasel:

There has been extremely little from this slot, and what has been posted is uniformly terrible. The worst is his ISO 10. He mentions that US has an "incrediscum" post, but instead of voting for the incrediscum post, he asks for someone else to rundown the case for him. We find the most logical interpretation to be thus: Beaver Weasel wants to get on the US mislynch wagon, but isn’t willing to risk his ass for it, so he is loudly mentioning that he agrees with it but is waiting for someone else to write a "case" so that when US flips town he can subsequently distance himself from the mislynch by blaming the charismatic X who compiled the case. Sadly, with UB’s hammer, he got away with responding, "hmmm", and we never got to see how events would unfold if someone had indeed compiled the case.

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DaSpot

- The first thing that stands out here is some slight hypocrisy between, say, post 70 and post 86. There's something unwholesome about a disjointed hydra complaining about the lack of unity in someone else. That said, post 172 had a sincere, distressed feel to it, which stops us from outright calling this slot scum just yet.

In general though, when reading through DaSpot, we're confronted with the idea that we have a hydra that cannot or will not make a comment for fear of upsetting the other head. Unlike a player like, say, UB, where we have this clearly chaotic brand of getting a point across, DaSpot is fighting amongst itself trying to sell their ideas instead of earnestly scumhunting. Not townielike. Possibly a bit sufferable to the constraints of a hydra, but we find ourselves doubting that proposition more often than not.

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Final Destination:

We strongly dislike their ISO 5:

I do approve of the Dana wagon, and was not aware we were getting into serious mode.

Fate and AlmasterGM both strike us as players who do not need to be told that "serious mode" has begun.

However, in a strange reversal, their ISO 6 has a town frustration that’s difficult to fake. Indeed, their whole plan of toning down their aggression and clearly labeling whether their thoughts are personal or shared is a town tell. Fate and AlmasterGM both have reputations for rapid fire posts and strong, sporadic aggression. They would have the freedom to fill the thread with noise, contradict eachother whenever convenient, and they could make a convincing meta case (see: Edge) that this was a null tell. I don’t see scum Fate giving up this privilege so casually.

Their recent push on FrogitoErgoSum, however, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. ISO 29 states a preference for lynching YFC over FES. Their last major post of D1 was a giant wall against YFC.

However, on D2, they voted for FES, and their post after the vote has this:

This is easily the worse vote on that terri-bad UStranger lynch. I know we never called him town but we thought he was very town, aka

our stance on FES being scum

yesterday.

ISO 29 gives a very different picture of their motivations. But now, they prefer FES over YFC, despite YFC having the worst vote on the US wagon, because "Cayke made the vote which makes me feel better." That seems like awfully specious reasoning for such a dramatic reversal. He’s now calling YFC a "pocket townbuddy" of FES. We can’t help but wonder if this switch is because YFC is now voting for someone else and FES is still voting for FD.

We wrote this prior to Final Destination’s 379. That post explains the perspective of Final Destination clearly, and we feel much better about them and their case on FES.

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Frogito Ergo Sum:

His "I wasn’t aware I was the L-1 vote, but I am aware now." action is sensible - as long as L-1 is claimed, there’s little worry of scum quickhammers, since the trade of one town for one scum is town-favored. However, while we can understand his initial placement of the vote, his tunneling is extremely suspect. In particular, his ISO 26’s "323 is bad" makes sense, but his subsequent ISO 29 "bad =/= scummy" seems like he’s bending over backwards not to concede a point to Final Destination. It’s getting hard to believe he’s legitimately scumhunting, and much easier to think that’s he’s ‘suspecting’ Final Destination for consistency points.

Frogito: Who is your second strongest scumread?

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Grey

- Grey's opening attack on the anonymity of BW is suspect, but he moves this vote when he no longer thinks it's serving its purpose. That's a good sign. The flow of the hydra seems almost natural as they hop wagons. They don't do it in a scummy way though, it feels like with every other post you're getting more insight into how the hydra is operating. There's a natural progression from post 173 to post 266. The US vote is not great, but the player reads that precede it brief and on point. I feel little reserve in giving them a solid townread.

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Gummybear

- Gummy spends an extremely large portion of time in a back-and-forth with Pathetric. When reading through the game the first time, we were preparing ourselves for an inevitable case of Gummy that would serve to make up one of our first attacks in this game. Later in the game, however, Gummy seems to pick it up into gear. Post 258, for example, does seem like an earnest attempt for flagging town to re-engage with the game.

Gummy could be sort of keeping a low profile, but we don't get this sense. Of course they need to post more, but our guts have a comfortable, safe feeling.

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Mrs. Flay (and Lord Fonzi)

No real content has come from this slot. Fonz and Gurgi are competent players; hopefully that will soon change. We're not interested in a policy lynch just for the silent Day One.

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Unicorn Brethren:

Have you ever planned a surprise party? You’ll have dozens of people in on the secret - but they don’t all pull the weight equally, do they? That’s a recipe for disaster.

No, there’s always "the organizer." Whenever anyone has an idea about the party, they know who to call. The same person set up the plan to get them out of the house, ordered the food and drinks, planned the entertainment. There’s a reason for this: when you’re trying to keep a secret, you want as few moving parts as possible.

As far as secrets go, plotting to kill innocent townspeople is, at its’ heart, not all that different from planning a surprise party. You have a secret, and you have someone (in this case, many someones) you wish to keep it from. If Unicorn Brethren had a scum role PM, the organizer would step forward. He (I use the masculine pronoun for simplicity, but certainly Stefunny could fill this role as well as anyone) would quickly order in QT, "No posting without clearing it by me." He’d have a plan for interacting with the scumbuddies. He’d have rules about a consistent style. And he would be responsible for the majority of the posts in the thread.

What do we have instead? Unadulterated chaos. There appears to be little significant QT communication; instead, any player can apparently pick up the account and idly spam as they will. Now, ask yourself, why do you think they’re doing this?

The answer is simple. They have a town role PM, and they subscribe to the school of thought that "If you have a town role PM, any actions you take are pro-town actions."

Is this philosophy correct? No. Am I happy with their lurking and vote hoping without substance? No. Are they scum?

Absolutely not.

Scum Unicorn Brethern would not saunter in to "bringethh the hammer." Unicorn Brethren is not playing like they have a secret to hide.

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YossarianFlavouredCayke

- With YosCayke there's a certain comfort in their ability to hit the ground running. There's a laser focus in their dislike for DaSpot and immediate recognition of UB as a somewhat bumbling townie. There's even something to be said for how they pressure FD early on as we're witnessing some attempt at scumhunting that's likely meaningful and truthful.

There are two major problems we have with YosCayke. The first being this absolute read on Patheric that's really bordering on being over-the-top. Post 166 is a good example of this, where YosCayke is not just recognizing Patheric as an obvious townie, but actually goes so far as to lambast FD for not having the same opinion. We've read over this and the surrounding posts several times, and every time we do this sticks out as awkward and clumsy.

The second is mostly contained in post 341, where we've got this idea that YosCayke is trying to distance themselves from the growing and soon-to-be hammered US. This really cannot sit well with anyone. If YosCayke takes the same aggressive approach against FD that they did yesterday, this might serve to excuse them somewhat, but the US vote is hardly what we'd consider purposeful. How are we supposed to read this? A resigned concession for the wagon to go ahead or as a firm proponent of the wagon? Are we supposed to see it as both? This is probably not as harsh of a criticism as it’s being made to seem, it could probably even be argued that we're being a bit overcritical of the slot, but Copper is not sold on the idea that YosCayke is town.

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Vote: BeaverWeasel

[Copper]

EBWOP:

No real content has come from this slot. Fonz and Gurgi are competent players; hopefully that will soon change.

That sentence reads as us hoping that Fonz and Gurgi will soon lose their competence. Pretend we wrote this instead:

No real content has come from this slot. Fonz and Gurgi are competent players, so hopefully that will soon change.

[Copper]

Hi. The Unicorns are out for blood.

We will be happy with goring any of the following:

-DaSpotthatkillsu (<deadweight/scum)

This is agreeable.

-Greymarble (<scum)
-FinalDestination (<kickingscreamingweight)
-Mystery player (<obvscum)

This is not.

Greymarble is a very likely townie, FD is a fairly likely townie, and holding "mystery players" on your list is so incredibly silly I'm almost embarrassed to engage with the point. Try something new and justify your reads.

[Copper]

That was my misunderstanding about you lot, then. (I was the one who brought up the concept of a committee-post hydra based upon my belief that you did so and you all seem to work smoothly, so yar). To answer your wondering about my lack of posting, it's due to the fact that I don't find my typical posing style to be conducive to smooth hydra performance / clarity of reads, and I really don't want to actively change how I naturally type things up. Instead, I just post my reads in the hydra QT. If you'd like me to start spamming posting when I feel like posting without discussing with my fellow heads, then by all means say so. Do be warned, though: it'll likely double our post count (which would be rather unfortunate, in my opinion).

This is a fair point. If Equinox again finds herself unable to post for a significant time period, I expect you to shoulder the burden. But if she is frequently posting and stating your thoughts to your satisfaction, then no, you are under no specific obligation to post.

BTW, this hydra has a natural flow because all the posts stem from a single source

This is an especially humorous line to accidentally post from your main account.

[Copper]

Perhaps you should throw a vote down before throwing out such impetuous threats.

[Copper]

Frogito Ergo Sum, who is your second strongest scum read?

Gummybear, I liked most of your 403, except for the end that contained no vote. Remedy this. Having three non-voting players this late into the day is tragic.

As far as Balam's point regarding YFC playing a clearing game instead of a scumhunting: yes, I agree that this is normally a scumtell of decent merit. However, it's tempered by the fact that BeaverWeasel has not shown up in a week. Obviously, it is difficult to ask questions of BeaverWeasel when he has not posted for all of Day Two.

I am glad that GreyMarble has unvoted. With three non-voters, and one of those players completely absent from the thread all of Day Two, ending the day now would be shockingly premature.

[Copper]

If you're waiting, you might as well look at other issues. Going 'DERP we is gonna lurk until we drop da hammer' is no use to anyone.

This is absolutely correct.

Unicorn Brethren's playstyle can be roughly summarized as, "shitting carelessly all over the thread." As it happens, scum tend to be exceedingly careful about when and where they shit, and it's a strong town-tell on UB. This does not mean that your shit doesn't stink. Your lackadaisical behavior may look town, but it is not pro-town. Rather than posting with an inappropriate trollface to spite those who ask you contribute, think about what exactly your win condition is, and what must happen for it to be achieved.

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Frogito Ergo Sum:

Do you think FinalDestination is going to be lynched today?

Final Destination:

What is your read on daSpot?

Daspotthatkilsu:

Your infighting stops now. The method is up to you: come to an absolute convergance in the Quicktopic, hash out an acceptable voting list between the two of you, remove voting priviledges from one head. Regardless, I refuse to accept the notion of "some reason". Disagreement between the two of you are acceptable. "Some reason" mysteries between the two of you are not.

[Copper]

After digging in to the identity of Super Vanilla Townie, I see there are over ten "potential heads". I don't want another Unicorn Brethren. I will no longer interpret it as "townie" to see spam without content coming from a hydra. That tell only works when the acting party does not know the view of the other players on the subject. I expect coherence and content. You have been warned.

Preview Edit: "My partner" implies that the heads have been pared to two. If so, this is pleasant news.

[Copper]

Just to be clear, none of the heads that have access are in any way affiliated with any of the other players here, correct?

This is not meant to be accusatory, but, again, an attempt to aid us in reading your slot. We're confident the Mod would be aware of this beforehand, but we'd just like to get it out in the open while the topic is on the table (and given that the pace has been rather slow the past couple of days).

[Copper]

Final Destination: What is your read on daSpot?

[Copper]

Okay.

Frogito Ergo Sum: Let's play a game. Your next post will contain an unvote.

[Copper]

It's rather easy to see that: Either that's scum looking for ultimate buddying rights with us, along with an "I told you so" when we flip, AND just looking to pad out the post with extra verbiage... or it's town with waaayyyyy too much time on their hands, and not much stock put into to the timeless adage "Succinctness is pro-town". TL;DR: Copper is scum.

The "waaayyyyy" is unwarranted. That section, in its entirety, took no more than five minutes to write. It was worth five minutes to explain by analogy the strength of our townread, rather than throwing out something like "Unicorn Brethern: town. that's it."

If you're glad that GreyMarble unvoted, then why didn't you yourself unvote? You had plenty of chance to do so. But oh wait. You were just actively looking for a mislynch, but now you're looking for town cred when it looks like you won't be able to push it through.

Because I was voting for BeaverWeasel, not FrogitoErgoSum.

As the post goes forward, you state that FES is probably scum, then that he's "maybe not such a fag after all", then that the case against him is terrible, and finally that he is a "mislynch" we're pushing through. Which is it?

Your read on FinalDestination seems a bit disingenuous. On the one hand, FES is his scumbuddy, on the other, the case on him is terrible. On the one hand, I'm scum, and on the other, Fate is buddying with me as the most pro-town player. It seems that no matter what anyone flips, you're prepared to call FinalDestination scum for it, but you're curiously unwilling to engage with him directly.

---

@Copper, nope.

FinalDestination is not getting lynched today. Even if he is scum, your vote is not helping to lynch scum. You know this.

Unvote, Vote: FrogitoErgoSum

(L-2)

Let's play a game. Your next post will contain an unvote.

---

If there's one scum motto RF lives by, it's activity. And look! It's Frosty!

Because Equinox is busy. She specifically mentioned such, and that she wanted AGar and RayFrost to do the rest. I fail to see how this, and the misunderstanding about the hammer, are scumtells.

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DaSpot:

You mentioned both heads commenting on your latest post. Can I take that to mean you both agree that FES is your top scum suspect?

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The Fonz is a devout policy lyncher. He is considered with keeping scum away from optimal scumplay, even if a few townies are burned in the process. It's a thankless job, but one that creates a healthier meta, and I see town motivation in his actions. That being said, I'm having a hard time swallowing the idea of gummybear scum. Lurking is an ideal scumplay, and we should punish someone who tries to find recourse in it. But what positive

scumtells

do you have from gummybear?

---

With the recent swell of walls, we haven't quite had 100% communication on the thread developments. If Copper comments on events that chronologically should have been covered here, assume it is another head addressing a missed point.

[Copper]

SVT, is there some reason you're scared to cast a vote?

[Copper]

So Final Destination has continued to act as we said we would no longer tolerate. Grand. It begs mention that Copper who made a similar ultimatum has not remarked on this.

I don't recall us making a similar ultimatum. We have no problem with FinalDestination.

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daSpot's ultimatum that BeaverWeasel wasn't lurking is silly. It reads like a scumbag trying for easy town-credit by defending the undefendable. That being said, YossarianFlavouredCayke's idea that daSpot is scumbuddies with SVT is similarly silly. Have you ever seen a scumbuddy blatantly lie to defend a buddy like that? You don't defend such a failure of a slot with such vehemence unless you're absolutely sure you'll be vindicated by a townflip - say, if you're scum and they're not on your team.

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1. Frogito Ergo Sum - Leaning town. Not seeing the case on them.

It is their petulant wagon-sitting. I have no personal experience with Shanba, but CogitoErgoSum is a player who knows how to move their vote around. The parked, useless vote on FinalDestination suggests a focus on personal defensibility over scumhunting.

---

Put Copper on your Willing to Lynch list and it's a deal.

Vote: Copper if we aren't already.

Which Unicorn was this? And what do you believe the single strongest scumtell on us to be?

---

Balam and Greymarble looks town on town. If I had to pick one as scum, it would be Balam, but I don't want to lynch either. There is also this:

First off, Kcdaspot. I believe what Greymarble mentioned about Kcdaspot's nervous meta was also RayFrost's "secret meta tell" that he wouldn't tell me. However, he has recently indicated that danakillsu hasn't made appearances in their QuickTopic, and it's difficult to defer to people when they're not there. His posts defending BeaverWeasel are awful, awful like scum white-knighting and not town white-knighting. On top of that, the slot has had a defensiveness in their posts for a while that have been irritating, and I believe now that it's because they've been nervous about the suspicion against them from YosFlavouredCayke.

This is a very strong point - though, this could be vanity in that we have just come to the same conclusion. A danakillsu scumflip all but clears Balam as town.

Greymarble's FoS on Balam for thinking dana is scum is beyond absurd. I think dana is likely scum as well. Is this similarly suspicious?

---

UB’s 468 presents decentish points on Copper. However, I find Copperscum unlikely. Additionally, a vote which is essentially based on the fact that one post is too long? No bueno. However, the contribution from UB is much appreciated; it’s been a very long time coming.

Which points on us were "decentish"?

---

Unvote, vote: Spot

A step in the right direction. But the fact you felt contended with just this is still unsettling. Congratulations, when poked and prodded enough you can begin to act vaguely pro-town. Why does it takes pokes and prods?

[Copper]

It doesn't. We were aware of the problem before you asked us (I don't forget my guiding philosophy when scum!) and vote change would've happened regardless of your little "game".

I take it you won't be participating in the final round then?

The final round consists of explaining why it is FD hasn't taken this opportunity to turn on the afterburners? Just why is it that FD is absent as your wagon reaches its precipice?

(For bonus points, you may place a bet on which player between UB and GummyBear will end up taking the most time to provide something useful in a game facing quite an important juncture.)

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I asked you why you were defending Beaver, and you invented a whole bullshit case against me rather then answer my question, at least at first. That is OMGUS, at least in the general sense; you were attacking me as a way to defend yourself (or, in this case, to avoid having to explain yourself). OMGUS dosn't just mean "you're voting me because I voted you", it can be any behavior along the lines of using fake and insincere scumhunting to counterattack someone who is attacking you.

And now you're doing it again here. Rather then respond to the logical reasons to suspect you, you're just trying to attack everyone who's attacking you. Your second one is especially bad

[...]

since you're trying to discredit SVT now because he voted you, even though your last several posts have been defending him.

We can't help but acknowledge the logic behind this. There's a sense of panic, again, coming from DaSpot's slot. We've never been sold on the idea that this hydra has been a mixture of two players trying to work their way through the game, only that some of their posts didn't necessarily jive with the outright label of fraudulent. Post 621 is just fear-based motivation in spades. I'd ask players like Greymarble specifically to take a good hard look at not just the text itself, but the overall intention behind this sort of over-simplified and insincere defense here. This could be something here from a player who senses it's time to take his foot off the accelerator with some sort of false comfort in the fact that he currently is not the leading vote getter.

[Copper]

Copper misreading my FOS on Equinox suggests quite a bit more skimming than their posts would.

I've read the relevant parts in more detail. Sorry, but I still just see "FOS for disagreeing with Llmarbles logic", and I still maintain that is silly. Is it a joke I'm missing?

---

We're at odds with the rest of the town regarding FES, it seems. People are calling his hop onto DaSpot scummy, and we disagree. His FD vote was worthless a long time ago, and a good compromise wagon is exactly what a townie should be looking for. The scummy thing, in our eyes, is the long delay before he switched onto DaSpot.

Ultimately, it's a six of one, half-dozen of the other situation. We want him lynched. All the same, it's interesting that we have people trying to lynch FES for literally opposing reasons (voting DaSpot/not voting DaSpot). This may be a point worth pursuing tomorrow.

---

Fonzi: If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that any last-minute energy towards daSpot would indicate FES scum (because we're the only voter on the FES wagon who would be similarly happy with a daSpot lynch.) Why wouldn't you want to keep that to yourself, and see if this change in momentum indeed occurs?

[Copper]

Ah, apologies. I read it as "there is a chance of the momentum shift happening, but only if FES is scum."

[Copper]

That one was a little too subtle, yes. If you had appended a "We'll explain why this is scummy in our Quicktopic", we probably would have gotten it.

Sarcastic votes/FoS's should be very obviously overblown or not used at all, in our view.

[Copper]

The one thing I've learnt from this game is that CES and I have massively different playstyles. Personally, I think we should have been pushing FD harder earlier, and he thinks we should have jumped off the FD wagon earlier, and between us we ended up doing neither and parking our vote there for no real reason.

Frankly I think Copper's jump on our wagon is scummy. He skirts around it for ages, then invents a little game that allows him to jump on board. I don't like people telling me not to vote someone. I'm pretty certain that we could still get FD lynched if we tried - but well, I guess we haven't really been making things happen this game. It's hard when everyone thinks you're scum and no one will listen to what you say except to invent scumtells in it (/bitter).

These two paragraphs don't make sense together. You were worthlessly parking your vote on FinalDestination. You know it. You admit it.

Our 'skirting around' was because vote parking is an offense that gets worse over time. There is always the chance a townie is simply failing to be dynamic with their vote. So we simply reminded you that your vote was currently worthless to see what you did with the information. This isn't 'skirting around the wagon', it's scumhunting.

There were two correct answers to our "game". You could either start putting your vote in play, accepting that FinalDestination will not be lynched today, or you could start a giant, renewed push if you had strong evidence and you truly believed we were all wrong. You chose neither. You admit that you chose neither. This is why we're voting you. You're shrugging your shoulders and saying, "We have two different ideas for how to play the game so we've decided not to play it at all. Also, you're scum for voting us."

---

I know of VERY few roles for which not claiming at L-1 with the pressure still on like this would be actually pro-town. Spit it out, man. A claim is THE ONLY WAY (barring investigations by other players) I will ever believe FES is town.

Why such certainty?

---

Copper: Your vote seems to be to pressure a change in vote. This happened. What now? Plan to have a real opinion on the near lynch you are participating in?

I imagine our perspective is more clear with the above section we've just wrote.

Also regarding the ultimatum, I could have sworn you made a post to the effect that FD needed to start being coherent or you would treat it as a scumtell. I can't find that in the ISO, so I guess I was wrong. I was going to be all snarky.

You are remember something we wrote; merely targeting it wrong. We had commented that SuperVanillaTownie (a potential ten-headed hydra) would not receive a townread for Unicorn-level incoherence. We have not found FinalDestination's posts to be particularly incoherent. For some reason, many people equate rhetoric with incoherence, but we don't find it an obstacle to readability.

---

We have more to say later when it's not 4am, as always. Especially looking at daspot's case since lately that seems to be a big deal or something.
This game sucks just fyi. That we can agree on SVT with. The cases are horrible, the reads are horrible, etc. Just our opinion.

Now this is an odd post. So, you'll have more to say later about the leading wagons of the day...but you know enough to say that the "cases" and "reads" are horrible? What do you mean by this? Do you think the two leading wagons are both on town, and scum-driven?

---

Apparently Pie doesn't feel comfortable carrying the hydra alone? That's unfortunate. There have been multiple times when a single head of Copper has been forced to speak for the whole for a long period of time, and we can attest it certainly is possible.

Still, it's hard for me to muster too much righteous fury against the SVT slot when both of today's wagons are on good targets. I think the best course is simply to grin and bear it, and hope the third time is the charm for that slot to actually produce some content.

Though I have to note that the accusation that it is our fault for not being exciting enough is offensive, particularity with a thread that is below thirty pages. Sometimes players get swamped and have to replace out. Blaming the game for you replacing out of it is exceptionally poor taste.

[Copper]

Given that I have just expanded on my FES read, I assume you're actually asking, "What do you find scummy about daSpot?"

Our ISO's 14 and 15 contain most of our suspicion. His insistence that BeaverWeasel wasn't lurking seems to be an attempt to gain an ally by defending the undefendable. The constant bickering and infighting has let him avoid being pinned down to a set of views, and his attempt to discredit the voters on his wagon rather than addressing them directly is suspect. There's also another point in the air we'll come back to soon.

[Copper]

Really? That's scummy? 'Cause that reads like town in a tunnel trying to derail the wagons that aren't theirs to me.

What you're saying here is that townies will lie about how townie someone else is just to get their favorite lynch through. That's a surprising claim, and one I don't believe. What makes you feel this way?

And I don't particularly feel like 'interesting information' right now. Normally I'm game, but FES is at L-1, and there's roving unicorns in the thread, I suggest you spit it out sooner rather than later.

You misunderstand. "In the air" means that it is dependent on the answer to a question we have asked that has not been answered yet.

[Copper]

Really? That's scummy? 'Cause that reads like town in a tunnel trying to derail the wagons that aren't theirs to me.

What you're saying here is that townies will lie about how townie someone else is just to get their favorite lynch through. That's a surprising claim, and one I don't believe. What makes you feel this way?

Copper... failure. Town in a tunnel can and will dismiss weak evidence for other wagons to push their favorite wagon. Fate does it all the time, witness his tunnel on FES.

Dismissing evidence is one thing. Postively creating false evidence is quite another. DaSpot is not saying, "It's not all that scummy that Beaver lurked"; he's saying, "Beaver wasn't lurking." A world of difference between those two.

More to the point, you are suggesting that its evidence that he's scummy because he dismissed evidence against his scumbuddy. I.E. you are presuming knowledge

based on a flip you do not have.

No we're not. We're actually advocating exactly the opposite. From our ISO 14:

daSpot's ultimatum that BeaverWeasel wasn't lurking is silly. It reads like a scumbag trying for easy town-credit by defending the undefendable.

That being said, YossarianFlavouredCayke's idea that daSpot is scumbuddies with SVT is similarly silly.

Have you ever seen a scumbuddy blatantly lie to defend a buddy like that? You don't defend such a failure of a slot with such vehemence unless you're absolutely sure you'll be vindicated by a townflip - say, if you're scum and they're not on your team.

If you believe that SVT is independently scummy enough to lynch,

We do not. From our ISO 19:

Still, it's hard for me to muster too much righteous fury against the SVT slot when both of today's wagons are on good targets. I think the best course is simply to grin and bear it, and hope the third time is the charm for that slot to actually produce some content.

and that danaspot is the likely partner,

We don't think this.

lynch SVT and if he flips town you'll know you have a null tell.

A SVT-scum flip suggests DaSpot as likely town, a SVT-townflip tells us...not much at all. Another good reason to sit on this for a day.

==============================================

Or I might fail completely.

A thought occurs. Has it just crossed over to April 1st in your timezone?

[Copper]

Oh gimme a break Copper. Scum are already abusing that meta by defending their partners to the hilt. Since scum never defend their partners, even if the person they're defending flips scum, they must be town!

I don't understand what you're saying here. You claimed that we were scummy for claiming daSpot was defending SVT-scumbuddy. We responded, "No, actually, we think he's defending SVT mislynch-bait." Now you're saying, "No Copper, it would make sense for daSpot to defend SVT-scumbuddy."

I feel like you're just throwing a theory point at us. You think that daSpot's interactions with SVT would make sense with both of them being scum; we don't. Regardless, your claim that we supported the idea they're scumbuddies is demonstrably false.

No. kcdaspot is town. I can and will make a case for it. And he's not sticking his neck out to protect a potential mislynch as scum. I know that much too. I can make a meta case, but it's not meta, it's just personality. People can change their actions, but it's hard to change who they are.

We would welcome such a case.

You are pushing a case on town while holding open a case on someone I am not sure is scum. And leaving the possibilty of a danaspot town flip to push SVT/BW back into scum.

Your point about a daSpot town flip is senseless. Are you saying that if daSpot flips town, SVT is confirmed town? Or are you in exactly the same position we are -- that a daSpot townflip doesn't reveal much about the alignment of the SVT slot? Yes, we could potentially push the SVT slot after a daSpot townflip, but it would not be

because

of a daSpot townflip. It will come down to the nature of the content from the third holder of the slot.

In short for a hydra that posts a lot of information, your analysis is weaksauce.

This seems to be the thrust of your case against us - that our analysis does not agree with yours and is therefore weaksauce and scummy. You think dana is town and FES might be town; we think they're both likely scum. Perhaps you're wrong. Perhaps we're wrong. We'd like to see your dana-town and FES-town arguments and judge for ourselves. To not post them and then call us scummy for having differing reads from you is, quite frankly, nonsensical.

[Copper]

daSpot, you missed this question:

I know of VERY few roles for which not claiming at L-1 with the pressure still on like this would be actually pro-town. Spit it out, man. A claim is THE ONLY WAY (barring investigations by other players) I will ever believe FES is town.

Why such certainty?

---

I'll put together a case Copper, but at the moment you are scummy because you are pushing a weak case far harder than it deserves. LAL on daspot when he explained the difference between lurking and what he thought BW was doing? Weaksauce. Too hard for too little - that was an honest read, and you yell LAL?

"Pushing a weak case"? We're not voting for daSpot. We're simply saying why daSpot is our secondary scum suspect (after your prompting, no less). If you disagree, then tell us

why

he is ferociously, actively, painfully town. I'm beginning to get irritated with "I'm voting Copper because he doesn't agree with the reasoning I refuse to share."

---

You're missing all the context here.

For a long time, DaSpot was trying to discourage a Beaver lynch in relitivly subtle ways, like attacking me for going after what he called an "easy wagon". I pointed out that he seemed to be trying to prevent a beaver lynch, and first he blew me off; I continued, and he attacked me in order to try to avoid answering my questions, and he only finally admitted that he was defending Beaver when I pinned him to the wall on the subject and didn't let up. That was when he had to invent a justification for his defense of Beaver, and, as you pointed out, it was quite bad. But I don't think DaSpot wanted to be seen to be defending Beaver; it looks like he was hoping to kill the Beaver wagon without anyone noticing he was doing it, and only tried to invent a pro-town justification for his defense of Beaver when he didn't have any other way out.

This is an interesting point, and something we apparently missed on our first read-through. Let us think on this.

---

Oh well, Llamarble's input is in, and not that it matters, but he suggests FES/Fonzi.

Why doesn't Llamarble's input matter?

[Copper]

Good luck with that.

We've given our reads, we are helping to lynch, and we are ready and waiting to sit back and laugh when we are right and you are wrong.

On the matter of giving reads, you missed this question from us (ISO 14):

Put Copper on your Willing to Lynch list and it's a deal.

Vote: Copper if we aren't already.

Which Unicorn was this? And what do you believe the single strongest scumtell on us to be?

---

We can sympathize with Balam in that the Unicorns are intolerable. The "that wasn't the hammer?" post in particular suggests

deliberately

playing to an anti-town meta, instead of merely failing to contribute. Were we hoodwinked by a deliberate ploy of "too scummy to be scum?" It's possible. But, nonetheless, I still can't make myself believe in earnest that the day one play came from scum. Now that the Unicorns have a reputation for failure, continuing to fail is a viable strategy, but it seems too risky to OPEN with such a ploy.

---

daSpot: Please name your strongest townread and second-strongest scumread.

[Copper]

Needless to say, I find it more than mildly amusing that I'm the only player who is apparently competent enough to post in his hydra at all times.

Ahem.

I'm starting to see why there are complaints about you, Copper. You really didn't need to say all that. First half gives you some way to wiggle onto Unicorn Brethren. Latter half defends Unicorn Brethren. Wonderful.

I don't think we could've been more clear about our disinterest in voting UB now or in the foreseeable future. Still, the necessity to relate to other players who don't come to the same conclusions as we do (e.g. you) is important in getting our point across. We want to make it clear that we wouldn't blame anyone for reading UB as someone who isn't worth our time, but we insist that that irritation cannot crossover into an actual vote.

This position has not changed, nor would it in such a sinister way as you are implying.

I dislike this justification; there's nothing wrong with sticking with your #1 suspect for a while early in the day, and there's really no way of predicting that early in the day that someone absolutly won't be lynched. The way FES stood up to this pressure, kept his vote where he thought it was best, and let Copper put him at lynch -2 rather then give into the pressure and join the Beaver wagon, join the votes on me, or join some other wagon, is behavior that I basically consider 100% proof of pro-town motive on the part of FES.

This may be a purely political disagreement, but forcing players to give meaningful votes and positions may be the crux of any good townie's strategy. The FD vote was as predictable as it was useless. We contend that you're not going to be able to successfully read a player that only reacts negatively to pressure against themselves. Everything else they say becomes marginalized. Forcing a player to the forefront, however, can rectify this.

[Copper]

This may be a purely political disagreement, but forcing players to give meaningful votes and positions may be the crux of any good townie's strategy. The FD vote was as predictable as it was useless.

That dosn't make any sense to me. FD got a lot of votes on day 1; the idea that you can just declare a vote on FD "useless" seems bizzare to me. In any case, a vote on someone you think is scum is never "useless".

If you're convinced person X is scum, and no one else agrees, just giving up and ignoring person X is a pretty bad idea, IMHO. It might be necessary to eventually compromise to get a more likely wagon, but even if you're all by yourself, if you're convinced person X is scum, you should make that absolutely clear, and keep pressure on them whatever way you can; even if it seems unlikely not going to get a lynch on that person today, you should keep making the case and attacking them, and try to build towards a future consensus on them.

There are times it's good to vote on a compromise wagon, or vote for pressure, or vote to make a point, or for other reasons; but most of the time, your vote should be on the person who's your number #1 suspect. I wouldn't have minded if you attacked FES because you thought FD was town, or because his case was bad, or whatever, but you never said that, and the "None of the rest of the town agrees with you so you should just shut up and sheep on the rest of us or I'm going to put you at lynch -2" thing just seemed bizarre.

You're forgetting that there were two townie responses:

There were two correct answers to our "game". You could either start putting your vote in play, accepting that FinalDestination will not be lynched today, or you could start a giant, renewed push if you had strong evidence and you truly believed we were all wrong. You chose neither. You admit that you chose neither. This is why we're voting you. You're shrugging your shoulders and saying, "We have two different ideas for how to play the game so we've decided not to play it at all. Also, you're scum for voting us."

As an analogy, lets look at voting. FES is analogous to a Green Party voter. We're telling him that the Green Party candidate has no chance of winning. There are two answers to this conflict. He can either vote Democrat (which is closer to his beliefs than Republican, if not his top choice). OR, he can spearhead a campaign designed to make the Green Party a viable choice. But when he does neither, and casts his vote knowing no one agrees with him, then there is some serious doubt as to whether he really cares who is elected president.

---

daSpot: A hypothetical. Suppose FES flips town. How does that affect your read of YFC?

[Copper]

Speaking as the head who asked daSpot the questions about his other reads, I should explain my intentions. His absolutely certainty with FES-scum seemed at odds with the indecision we called him out on earlier. It smelled fabricated, like they had consciously said "make sure to act very sure about this one!"

His answers to the questions were good, though. Apparently, he sounds so sure because he really is sure about YFC and FES, despite his previous waffling. His unprompted switch to YFC, a much less likely wagon, earns him some town points. I was going to call him out on his idea that YFC-scum still looks good with an FES townflip, because after all, a townie in that situation should then think..."So why am I not voting YFC?". The fact that he DID vote YFC, unprompted, is a pleasant surprise.

---

The problem with your analogy is that there wasn't a Democrat option. In terms of theory, I definitely agree with Copper. The actual argument just relies on an assumption (the existence of Democrats) that while usually valid wasn't valid here. Honestly, Copper, your stance on this issue has been a little naive - I don't suddenly stop thinking about stuff like this when I'm scum.

daSpot is the wagon I'm referring to - how was he not an option?

---

UB, you should put your vote back on and just fucking hammer already. This is fucking ridiculous and this game fucking sucks.

While we are late to the ball game on this issue, we must also point out that this is a bad post, particularly coming from someone who has ostensibly had trouble catching up. Surely a slow game is a boon to a player having trouble keeping pace?

---

also no political refenda PLEASE. that analogy made my head hurt copper. in any case why did you feel to put A analogy in the FIRST place? FES is scum end of story.

I'm going to indulge myself in a bit of a rant here.

Several times in this thread, we have been accused of being scummy for "too much explanation." (Indeed, UB stated it as the single strongest "scum tell" on our slot.) The implication is that we should post more in the matter of "FES SCUM. UB TOWN. COPPER LEAVE THREAD NOW, KILL MAMMOTH, FEED FAMILY." Our thoughts are more nuanced than that, particularly when encompassing the views of multiple players. Yes, FES is scummy - but saying, "FES is scum end of story" seems more anti-town than anything.

---

*shakes head at Balam*

Would you have hammered here if Balam had not switched to Gummybear?

---

- At least some of the scum are very, very good players. Our scum group is not exclusively composed of the 'catchup soon' hydra, the 'Spot' hydra, and the 'We can't agree on how to do this entire voting thing' hydra.

I agree with this. I would be surprised to find more than one scum in this group.

---

This is my guess, and yes it doesn't involve that intractable SOB FES, but it makes sense holistically. Gummy starts going down in a flash because not enough scum were pushing the FES wagon, and it was stallin, and Balam town had enough and started the train on Gummy. Greytown follows, I follow, Gummy looks to be going down HARD: Yoscarykce and UB start linking her alignment to other townies (DaSpot in particular)

I agree that Yosarrian's actions do seem oddly like trying to establish connections before a flip. His connection between daSpot and Gummybear ("daSpot's defense of Gummybear is bad...so they're both scum") seems rushed and ill-thought out. I think that trying to apply the same calculus to UB's "NEIGH THEY ARE SCUMBUDDIES" is reaching.

---

A few spot towntells:
Saying he wouldn't shut up unless instructed by Dana to do so
Being loud and excited about the game
Asking silly rules questions like "do scum have daytalk?" (town wondering is a bit more likely than scum pretending)

Spotscum in Lovers Multiball (ongoing but his faction's gone) got constantly chewed out by his lover for sinking their team and spent a lot of time profusely apologizing. So I do not see spotscum coming out headfirst and carefree to the degree he has here at all.

He's my strongest townread (and I think Grey's as well) and I remember noticing other things that make him town that I'll go back for if people are actually considering lynching him.

Why did it take you so long to post this?

---

Copper, I've seen you around in the past 3 days. Stuff's happening in this thread; now get your collective butts in here and post.

Hello.

---

The Gummybear wagon is extremely town driven. If more than one of the Gummybear voters are scum it'll be absurdly surprising, and Balam is basically confirmed town on a Gummybear scumflip.

Profane Confusion: You are currently voting for daSpot, despite listing him as probtown. I assume this is just an oversight because your rapid replacement in; just calling your attention to it.

---

Unvote

Allow us a bit of time to try to digest the new developments and get some questions answered. We'll be around tonight and tomorrow to vote if needed. I (the head speaking) will be around; the goal now is to wrangle the full complement and discuss in real time instead of back and forth through the QT (which is too slow for high-activity times like this).

To state my personal thoughts: FES is still scummy but the Gummybear wagon is full of likely townies. Balam's swap seems like an unlikely, risky gambit for Balam and FES-scum. Begrudgingly, I admit that I see the signs of daSpot-town - though again, I question why it took so long for Greymarble to provide them.

[Copper]

We've been cooking up a fairly brash move here. This is something that has been fueling intense argument amidst the heads, so you'll pardon the delayed response. First, a bit of history:

Balam voted Untrod Stranger in post 303 with the rationale being, essentially, US was being unfair to FES,

All that Frogito has done is wait for bandwagons to grow just big enough to hop on unceremoniously.

Bad.

feeling off,

...I don't like the feel of this post. Specifically, the questions.

and making a mathematical error in his attacks,

Ladies and gentlemen, this is why WE MAKE SPREADSHEETS

Fair enough. There's nothing particularly noteworthy here when taken alone. At this point YosCayke & FES were vying for the top spot in votes. Immediately after this post, US gains some serious momentum and completely overtakes the rest of the wagons for a lynch on the very next page (Lord Fonzi, YosCayke, and UB help finish the job).

Balam, during the start of D2, was quick to vote FES on the back of misrepresentation on FES' part. Fair enough. Again, Balam seems quite in the right here. This doesn't come across as shady as Balam was on record of being sketchy with FES. In fact, Balam makes it pretty clear that FES is a priority. Not only do they literally say that, but the flow of their posts suggests that as well.

Here's where it starts to get interesting. Balam begins moving their vote around some, but eventually landing back on FES here, acknowledging that they're putting him at L-1. In the very next post, by the very same head, not seven hours later, Balam jumps right back off the wagon and encourages a quick push against GummyBear. The same FES that had been a consistent scumread throughout Balam's history. The only thing that seemingly changes in the interim is UB's unvoting of FES.

My impression is that there's not enough pushing off the Frogito Ergo Sum wagon for this to be a wagon on scum. There's YosFlavouredCayke's push against you, but I have a difficult time wrapping YosFlavouredCayke-scum around my head, so no dice there either. While I dislike Frogito Ergo Sum's play, the thread feels... I don't know, complacent? I can't think of another way to describe it. Yeah, we're all tired and want a flip, but I really feel this isn't an environment conducive to lynching scum. It's too lazy.

---

Now, it's easy to sit here and say Balam was wrong about US and Gummy and, therefore, is scummy, but that's not the whole story here. There were two very strong wagons made against FES in both days. Balam is on record as having a scum read (or, at least, not particularly liking) FES consistently throughout the game. And, yet, when it came time for FES to eat the rope on two separate occasions, Balam has managed to play a big part in subverting that.

I mentioned earlier that there was a bit of argument among our heads. Well, the argument centered around what Balam would do to start today. We ultimately ended up waiting for Balam to post, but the argument centered around what they would do. FES has, apparently, become a full fledged townread for Balam (even though they have yet to clarify this in either way post-revelation), because they've started off the day with a jab at FD for attacking FES, and they've given a vote for UB. We contend that Balam is, in fact, using FES for one of two purposes: Either FES is a partner to Balam that needs assistance in getting out of tricky lynch situations, or FES is being protected by a Balam hoping that FES will be lynched over their last minute objections.

Vote: Balam

[Copper]

As for Unicorn Brethren, that's not a policy lynch. At least, it isn't for me. I've wanted them dead since yesterday, but everyone just went on their merry way as if my vote did not happen. Yeah, thanks for waiting until today to tell us we're off our rockers, despite most of you raging your heads off yesterday that they were playing like idiots and then, for some inane reason, refusing to lynch them off the face of the planet.

As for playing like idiots, that is why I believe them to be scum. On Day 1, they started off somewhat okay, and then their play went straight down the chute when people gave them the pass to be a 6-headed menace of a disaster. On Day 2, they continued that trolling behavior, going for weeks without any helpful contributions. Suddenly, today, they've decided they want to play again. SCUM BENEFIT FROM THIS SORT OF PLAY. TOWN DOES NOT.

This rush to defend Unicorn Brethren today pisses me off, and I'm willing to bet good money it stinks.

This is patently untrue. We have, from literally our first post, explained why Unicorn is town. Yes, their play was indeed anti-town, but not scummy. What I find especially odd is that you once criticized us for our nuanced opinion, when we stated that we sympathize with the dislike of Unicorn, but they're not scum. So clearly you read it. And yet, you're acting as though not wanting to lynch Unicorn Bretheren is some new development. This reeks of petulant scum, whinging that "they're playing so bad, what do you mean I don't get my mislynch?"

---

We've played in at least 5 forum games together on opposite sides and same sides, numerous face-to-face games together, and you really can't see I'm town here? Yos, are you scum?

I abhor posts like this. What it's doing, if you look under the surface, is threatening people into giving you townreads. There are very few people who can be so obviously town that merely suspecting them is a scumtell, and you are not among their ranks.

---

@Copper: If you had to choose between FES and FD right now (and I'm aware you don't) which would you choose?

In terms of individual play, we'd rather lynch FES by a mile. But look below for an associative problem we'd have with an FES lynch. (FinalDestination continues to be strongly town.)

More importantly, Balam and FES are almost certainly not scum together, so it would be foolish to lynch FES before Balam.

---

I have to point this out, because it's really bugging me. I haven't talked it over in the QT but I think it should be said immediately.

Your little analysis completely omits copper. There are nine alive. Copper is actually a player we are concerned about, because they sure sound good, but I can't actually think of anything particularly protown they've done.

I agree with LF's 381 since I can't point to anything specifically pro-town that Copper has done all game either. So I'm concerned with how people are just ticking them off without really looking into them.

I began to ponder what exactly it is we aren't doing. We don't post as often as some other hydras, true (a pattern consistent throughout our games - quality over quantity), but we've been asking questions, voting, and all of that. The especially odd thing is that every lynch so far has been a mislynch.

And then I realized - some people have, simply by the pidgeonhole principle, voted for scum. Others have voted for town. And yes, those voting for scum have been more pro-town than those voting for town. Scum know who is doing what.

I can't help but feel that this accusation is an unconscious admittance from Fozni and Confusion that FES is townie. After our push on his wagon yesterday, it's certainly true that we haven't been as pro-town as those voting for scum. It feels as though we're being implicated for our efforts in securing a mislynch, before that mislynch is secured.

Of course, I don't have the arrogance to assume I've called the scumteam, and this single tell isn't worth voting off of. But I can't shake the feeling this is something important.

---

For example, Copper, I don't really get your vote and case. It seems to amount to "Balam has been shady around FES wagons. Therefore Balam is either scum with FES or Balam is scum while FES is town and they're waiting for the FES flip to unleash some fury." The thing that puzzles me is I always got the impression that you thought FES was scum, so I don't get why you'd now choose to vote off-wagon for this kind of reason. Break it down for me?

Instead of breaking it down, I will build it up by mentioning a point made in QT that was not included in our last post. (Don't blame my comrade for that, I specifically asked to make this point personally. Sadly, I've had time issues of late.)

Start from the assumpion that Balam and FES cannot be scum together. A safe bet, in our view - when a scumbag is looking so close to being lynched, a hail mary defense in the style of Balam is just too risky.

Now, the scum are sitting in a fairly safe spot. They have a host of mislynches to chose from. And strategic scum, in those situations, don't simply bank the easiest one and leave it at that. They start thinking of HOW to get those mislynches.

FES is what could be called a "safe mislynch". Under incredible pressure from town, and playing with a vote-parking style that always leads to oblivion, sooner or later. Crucially, more FES posting is not so likely to improve their status.

Unicorn? A carnival of bad posting that is being correctly read by most of the thread. Still, there's enough dislike of them that a policy lynch could go through.

Gummybear? A lurker. But, and here is where it gets interesting, a lurker that

appears as though they will stop lurking.

Gummybear promised more time in the future. As well, Gummybear's vote on the FES wagon was poor.

So, secure the Gummybear mislynch first, then the Unicorn lynch (no one will ever policy lynch LYLO), and THEN revisit the well-prepared FES mislynch. Gummybear looked poised to improve, while FES has been apathetic all game.

Today's actions from Balam have been absolutely congruent with strategic scum. Unicorn is finally being something more than an albatross around our necks, and Equinox has literally used this as a point

against

them. We were frustrated with Unicorn for wasting a town slot; Balam is apparently frustrated they are using it. You are not content with a surge of content from Unicorn, so let's follow this thread a little longer: what would it take for you to view Unicorn as town?

Preview Edit:

I can see that you guys are too much of a buncha sacks o' derp to lynch UB, and that's fine. We can let deliberately bad play intended to make everything that's scummy seem like a VI-tell and let failscum win the game. That's fine.

Ah, sour grapes. How unfair it is that Unicorn is correctly read as town with so minimal effort by almost every member of the town.

---

YossarianFlavoredCayke: Why should we vote for FinalDestination?

[Copper]

FYI: we aren't going after FES. Another FYI: IF A UB POLICY LYNCH COULD GO THROUGH, WE WOULD NOT BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION: IT WOULD BE NIGHT OR GG OR WHATEVER. So falsehood here. Moving on.

What are you saying here? That because you couldn't secure a policy lynch on UB, obviously you weren't trying to?

How about a thought experiment. Assuming balam-town, how do you explain the fact that every single player in this game aside from balam has completely shed their suspicion of the UB player slot? It's seriously evaporated faster than water splashed onto an overheated car engine.

I don't think there was very significant suspicion of the UB player slot before today either. Certainly not enough that there is significant "evaporation" of suspicion that was once there.

---

But for me, when I think of someone being pro-town I know that it's a feeling that I get from their posts that's very difficult to fake. And you my friend are the most neutral read I've had in a long time. Even after you explained the logic behind your Balam vote, I still think you're as neutral as a 7.0 on the pH scale.

Fair enough. Generally I see "town" and "scum" applied to reads, and "pro-town" and "anti-town" as a judge of their actions (e.g, Unicorn was town but anti-town). But if you define it differently your post makes sense.

---

@Copper: Can you point to any of your questions producing information you found invaluable, which you used to really strengthen or change a read?

As mentioned in our ISO 26:

Speaking as the head who asked daSpot the questions about his other reads, I should explain my intentions. His absolutely certainty with FES-scum seemed at odds with the indecision we called him out on earlier. It smelled fabricated, like they had consciously said "make sure to act very sure about this one!"

His answers to the questions were good, though. Apparently, he sounds so sure because he really is sure about YFC and FES, despite his previous waffling. His unprompted switch to YFC, a much less likely wagon, earns him some town points. I was going to call him out on his idea that YFC-scum still looks good with an FES townflip, because after all, a townie in that situation should then think..."So why am I not voting YFC?". The fact that he DID vote YFC, unprompted, is a pleasant surprise.

It's also worth noting that many of our questions are checking our blind spots. When we think we have a scumtell, we don't like to immediately leap on it. Better to explore around it. A good example is our push on FES Day Two. We thought something was suspicious with his vote-parking, but we didn't immediately vote him for it - instead, we pushed at the issue a bit to see what would happen.

It just feels like their posts are trying to come across as sympathetic and relatable. Likeable. I've long contended that town should be willing to make enemies, and that politeness is a scumtell. They could just be nice people, but it gives me a bad feeling.

We were empathizing that Unicorn Brethern's play was intolerable, to illustrate that,

even as someone similarly frustrated

, we still stood by a Unicorn-town read. It is worth being relatable when you do, in fact, relate.

This line of argument seems to have been forgotten. Do you really see Balam-scum bothering to try to swing a wagon from a townie to another townie? Something that I've argued for plenty in recent-ish games, and been vindicated in, is that scum rarely bother to attempt to swing a wagon from townie to townie late on in a day. It's just not worth the hassle.

We did not forget the line of argument - our very last post explains the reasoning thoroughly. Gummybear-town was at probably the most suspicious they'd ever be: FES-town is unlikely to improve their quality of play and as a "anytime" mislynch. It is smart play to switch to locking in the Gummybear mislynch, express ambivalence on FES, and then switch back in LyLo.

---

unvote, vote: Copper

Explain later.

A reminder for you, Fonzi.

---

I give you FES -> GB, but what is the other? And where do you think it makes sense to run a wagon up to L-1, sit on it and push it, then start a flash-wagon on another player as scum? What scenario is this beneficial?

Day One, with a burgeoning wagon on FES, you voted for both YFC and Untrod Stranger, despite listing a preference for FES.

---

Equinox highlighted this, but hello, scumslip.

Considering we are the only ones who have even remotely expressed anything but a solid town-read on UB today, we could be the only other "member of the town" to not read him so "effortlessly."

But your vote is on us.

And I thought you were so much better than this, Copper.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill here. The simple fact is, we don't like speaking in absolutes. Yes, marching down the playerlist, we can't find another player with non-trivial suspicion of UB. But when we're writing a post, we don't take the time to analyze where every player is sitting before deciding whether or not to write an "almost." We just go off of our knowledge that there is very little support for a UB lynch, and write the sentence with a bureaucrats "almost".

I'm going to take a moment to elaborate here on why I believe Copper is chaining lynches.

On the same topic, this is an unfair argument. As opposed to speculating as to who we'd vote next, we'd imagine, on D3, you'd have concrete evidence of us "chaining lynches". Instead, you choose to speculate as to how we will react in future scenarios. You're right, you don't know if FES is scum, and neither do we. However, one of us is on record of actively subverting the FES wagon twice. It's not your being wrong that makes you scum, it's that you act on these end-of-day whims the coincide so perfectly with sparing one person.

I mean, this is evidence that anyone can look at. We're not speculating as to what you're going to be doing tomorrow (if you're alive tomorrow), but, rather, we're pointing out a direct correlation and pattern. We'd say this is significantly more substantial than "they seem to be setting up the stage [for D4]".

[Copper]

Apologies for our absence. A combination of Easter and the ending of the Spring semester (I'll let slip that there's a college student in this hydra) has left us with scant time for mafia, resulting in the unsatisfying game of hydra chicken.

I am still without time for a response/catchup wall, but I'll try to touch on the major points. This is largely individual, you've been warned. If you want specific questions answered immediately, you'll have to requote them.

---

One thing that we've been watching for, and failing to find for some time, is what exactly happened to Balam's read on Unicorn Brethern. Looking at Balam's ISO 129, we see an angry plea to lynch Unicorn Brethern:

UNICORN BRETHREN PLAYED LIKE TOTAL IDIOTS, AND THEN THEY WOKE UP TODAY. "HAHAHAHEHEHEHAHAHA, YEAH, SORRY, WE TROLLIN'. NOW I'M BACK." TOWN DO NOT PLAY LIKE A SACK OF DERPS FOR AN ENTIRE DAY; THAT GOES AGAINST THEIR FUCKING WIN CONDITION. GO BACK AND LOOK AT THE INDISCRIMINATE HAMMERING AND TELL ME THAT IS TOWN MOTIVATION. SAY IT TO MY FACE. THIS IS A SCUM STRATEGY. UNICORN BRETHREN IS SCUM. SCUM. SCUM.

In Balam's very next post, AGar mentions "hardcore" clashing and that he supports lynches on YossarianFlavoredCayke, Copper, and Final Destination. From there, they go on to solidify reads, but taking strange care not to mention which reads are contentious and which are unanimous, save for Copper-scum being the top.

The big point is that, after Balam's 129, Unicorn Brethern/Mastermate are not mentioned by Balam a single time. Instead, their next three votes have been AGar's three lynch targets in 130.

Let's look at the situation. We have Equinox and RayFrost both yelling for a lynch on Unicorn Brethern. Then, suddenly, AGar announces he's "taking over", and repeatedly stresses that reads are individual, and should not be taken as representative of the hydra as a whole.

Later, AGar assures us they have largely reached consensus, again making sure not to name names. So, we have Equinox and RayFrost posting a wagon on a very likely townie. They are shot down by the thread, but persist in calling him scum. Then what happens? AGar rushes in and says "No! Everything is individual now!" and makes no mention of Unicorn. When Ray and Equinox scurry out of the QT again,

they follow suit

.

What exactly happened in that hydra QT? It's not as though sudden, new information has come to light - the arguments for Unicorn-town are venerable. But instead, we were treated to a game of Three Head Monte, and at the end of it there's not any mention of the Balam policy on Mastermate. It's delicate dancing off of a very unpopular position with not a single mention of why, how, or even that it's happened. It seems extremely insincere.

---

As for YossarianFlavoredCayke, he's been a hard read all game. He's been very clear at outlining his positions, and we've need next to zero clarification from him on his stances. But he's always been a bit of an unsettling monolith. He charges at his positions with single-minded purpose, a stance that is easier to fake than the town twitch-focus of a player like Final Destination. So, by and large, we've left Yossarian alone, on the principle of "never defend your null reads." His stances have been clear, and as the gamestate progresses the flips should do a good job of telling us about Yossarian.

The recent thread events have been...odd. The first thing to notice is his sheer bravery about L-1. The Unicorns are gone from us, true, but this is a town with severe hammerlust. If he is scum, it's unlikely he's being bussed: that kind of safety could only come from the knowledge that the potential hammerers contain one or both of his scumbuddies.

Who could this contain? The likely candidates for Yossarian's scumbuddies would be Lord Fonzi, Frogito Ergo Scum, and Balam. The later is the most interesting - Balam made a big show of threatening the hammer and Yossarian was oddly nonplussed.

FES and Fonzi are both unlikely scum, in my view, which makes Yossarian scum a little harder to swallow. He could be scum with Balam, with a third scumbuddy somewhere in the gaps - either bussing, or one of FES or Fonzi. (Though that being said, Buttonmen is well-known for his love of the Vanilla Town role, and I could see him being brazen enough to run a 2:11 mountainous setup. When speculating about the setup, though, it's better to assume the worst.)

Regardless, I'd much rather lynch Balam first.

As for his claim, I agree with his philosophy: as a Jailkeeper, I would not want to inhibit a town PR, and so would focus on the roleblocking aspect (trying to freeze the scumkill) instead of the doctor aspect. By picking an unlikely NK target, and a player you believe is scummy, a no-kill suggests that you hit scum much more likely than you protecting from the scum kill.

---

It appears Profane Confusion has had the courtesy of writing up the reasoning for Final Destination as town for me. Speaking as someone strapped for time, this is much appreciated.

I'll also add the simple truth that the most passionate player in a game tends to be Town, particularly in a disorganized town. A mislynch is the best thing scum can achieve each Day, and it's a low enough bar that they can afford a fair degree of apathy. But the prize of calling the scumteam is always in the reach of a townsperson.

FinalDestination is town second only to Mastermate, as far as we're concerned.

---

Balam's recent point against FinalDestination - that a (unclaimed!) townsperson who admits to avoiding nightkills is probably scum - is not only ridicious, but endemic of a larger trend.

First, there was the overblown "scumslip" springing from a trivial semantic point that they used against me. Then, it was a rapid "CLAIM NOW OR I'LL HAMMER" against Yossarian. Now, we have this garbage point against Final Destination. In all cases, there is an abundance of certainty that seems to be accompanying their vote, even when they must pick reaching reasons to do it. To put it bluntly, their certainty seems to be far outpacing the strength of their evidence. Once is understandable, twice is forgivable, but three times - with three different people - and I'm hard-pressed to see sincerity. I'm also very keenly aware that, if YFC and FD are both town, a lynch on YFC would be miles easier to obtain after an FD townflip than vice-versa.

---

We have a few days until deadline. Of the current wagons, we will easily support a YossarianFlavoredCayke wagon over a Final Destination wagon. However, we have enough time for a switch onto Balam, and I think it's the best move for today.

---

Moderator:

A vote count, please.

[Copper]

If you do not believe this claim, I urge you to go back in our iso. We outed YosFlavouredCayke's role in an effort to get them to crumb their targets to us, but apparently the song went woosh and we could not push this point further without claiming ourselves. We forced a claim out of them in part because their ignorance/dismissal of our rather blatant crumb-claim might have suggested

scum avoiding locking themselves into a response

; however, YosFlavouredCayke's responses since their claim led all 3 of us to think they were town.

So you believed that there could have been a scum Jailkeeper? And that this was likely enough of a possibility to deliberately out the protective role?

[Copper]

Mafia Jailkeepers exist...in games with multiple killing factions. I doubt there has been a normal game where Mafia had access to a protection ability they couldn't possibly make use of. This seems like a distinction at least one of the three heads could have picked up on after getting the "roleblock and protect" result.

[Copper]

Balam:

Mafia Jailkeepers exist...in games with multiple killing factions. I doubt there has been a normal game where Mafia had access to a protection ability they couldn't possibly make use of. This seems like a distinction at least one of the three heads could have picked up on after getting the "roleblock and protect" result.

I would like your reasoning on why you suspected YossarianFlavoredCayke could be scum.

[Copper]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. What I am saying is,

in a game with only one kill a night for two nights

, why did you suspect YossarianFlavoredCayke could be scum?

[Copper]

I, personally, have never seen a scum Jailkeeper. I have heard of a scum Role Cop, however.

YosCayke, is there any reason you're choosing to assume that Balam is on the up and up from his results? Did you already answer this somewhere in this mess of the past few pages?

I feel like we can plan this lynch out a little better. There's been a bit too much spam and not quite enough rational discussion here. We have three supposed power roles, all, of course, claiming to be town aligned. A Tracker, Role Cop, and a Jailkeeper, right? Not implausible by any stretch of the imagination. I'm still having trouble understanding exactly what happened between DaSpot and YosCayke though. YosCayke locked up DaSpot during both previous nights? Otherwise, FES, will you confirm DaSpot's allegation?

[Copper]

I think a Balam lynch would be far more productive at this juncture.

For one thing, there's the actions of the players. We've already mentioned the scumtells coming from Balam, and the potential links between them and YossarianFlavoredCayke as scumbuddies. Let's not forget how cavalier Yosarrian was when threatened with a Balam "hammer". And, for that matter, let's not forget the insincere fury that seemed to come out of nowhere. Balam said that they simply did NO setup speculation, and that is why they considered that a mafia jailkeeper could be in the game. But compare that hypothesis - that Balam investigated Yosarrian, didn't stop to think about what protective roles in a one-killing-faction game meant, suddenly got EXTREMELY focused on getting a claim - to this much simpler one: it was a pageant, scripted in the QT the night before ("Do this if my wagon gets too big") and put on for us today.

But more than that, lets look at the players themselves. FinalDestination as scum; Balam and YosarrianFlavoredCayke as town? You're prepared to lynch off of this speculation, daspot?

I think it's also worth pointing out looking at the claim progression. Yossarian gets to L-1, Balam immediately takes up the role of hammer-keeper and charges them for a claim. Yossarrian draws out the moment for all he's worth (he can't look too easy about it; and anyway, he's in no real danger) before claiming JK. The game stutters around for a bit. Then, we come in expressing that we will lynch Yossarian at deadline over FD, but would much prefer a Balam lynch. Balam meanwhile is fishing as hard as they can for FD's alignment, but he's not budging. Crucially, Balam isn't asking for FD's full alignment, just "were you softclaiming?" This is something extremely important to know if you intend to fakeclaim a vanilla result.

Then, with YFC the most serious threat of lynch, Balam claims rolecop with a "confirmed" result on YFC and a vanilla on FD. This saves YFC from lynch AND hampers any potential Fate fake-claims. Balam took a gamble that FD was vanilla, hoping they correctly interpreted his reaction to the accusations of softclaiming as a vanilla tell. And he immediately -

immediately

- claims Cop.

We have two options here. Either FD, as scum, decided to force a 1:1 trade, and to do so immediately without consulting his partner. A Balam townflip would absolutely confirm him as lying scum. A 1:1 trade, particularly if the game is a mislynch away from LyLO - which this game almost certainty is - isn't as optimal for scum as seeking a perfect game.

But Balam? Balam was not willingly walking into this 1:1 trade. From the perspective of Balam-scum, as long as they were right on the gambit of FD-vanilla, an FD flip does NOT confirm them as lying. Then tomorrow, they need only fake a guilty to win the game. FinalDestination, though, swiftly gave a counterclaim that utterly forces a situation where one or the other is lying.

Do we really think that FinalDestination is the one lying, and Balam is the one telling the truth? If you were the third member of a scumteam with Balam and YossarrianFlavoredCayke, is there any plan you'd suggest that could work better than this for securing a perfect game when at least one scum teammember is under intense scrutiny?

[Copper]

I'm loath to comment on events outside of the game proper, but I feel the need to interject.

Fate: Understand that hearing that you have feigned an investigation on a slot because of a read that stemmed from an out of game source is absolutely infuriating,

regardless of alignment.

As scum, it's awful to know you were caught because of a conversation that you have not seen or even heard about. As town - well, I don't need to tell you why Balam would be angry if they were town.

Equinox: Understand that there is NO reason for Fate to lie about something like this. It may sound suspicious and uncharacteristic for Ray. It may even be that Fate is misremembering details. But to assume he has fabricated this out of whole cloth to further some agenda is an absolutely wretched base to start from. You may feel like he is hiding something, but to accuse a player of cheating (or fabricating an incident where a player has cheated) is a monstrously serious accusation, and not one that should be made lightly, regardless of your personal opinion of Fate.

I'm so glad I replaced out of this hellhole.

So

stay

out.

[Copper]

Vanilla.

Mastermate can go next.

[Copper]

As you probably gathered, we had some issues with activity. Most of our Copper games are done when we anticipate large swaths of free time, but this was done as a favor to TBM. Our play suffered accordingly. Thankfully, the scumteam still won.

Final Destination owes town (and specifically Balam) an apology for that awful gambit. I would say that Equinox similarly owes Final Destination an apology for her disgustingly premature accusation of lying about out of game information, but she had the maturity to already offer one in her first post of Day Five.

GreyMarble easily wins town MVP, in our view. We find it funny that, after all of Yossarian's talk of scum simply NK'ing the person with the best reads, we more or less did exactly that (though town reads were our target, more than scum) and he didn't seem to read Greymarble's posts post mortem.

Overall, this was a very emotional game, and I think it might have had more to do with the involved personalities than the hydras. Another game like this could be fun. Just...no unicorns, and with a nice long break before.

A preview edit: Fate, you weren't quite the wrongest townie here, but you were damn close. Swallow your pride, apologize, and learn from your mistakes. The alternative is to stagnate in mediocrity.

[Copper]

Magna is not one of our heads.

We won't be releasing our QT, but it would be a disappointment anyway. It's only ten posts long. We collaborated directly on the opening post and then more or less worked independently for the rest of the game.