The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Mastermind of Sin]

Vote Final Destination

Let's kill him and pretend this never happened. He shouldn't have brought it up, regardless of whether it happened or not. If it did happened, he should have referred it to the mod and the mod dealt with it quietly to both parties satisfaction. So unless I've miscounted he's dead now and we have a fresh tomorrow.

PS: If it did happen it's a much your fault as his. If someone is having a discussion about the game with you, you are equally to blame because you didn't close the aim window. Takes two people to have a discussion.

Additionally we note that Balam and FD's claims don't match up, which is part of the reason for our hammer.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: In that we don't buy the "gambit" excuse.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Mod: Can you please put the number of living players in the first post? I thought we had 13 people alive because that's what the playerlist in the first post said.

[Mastermind of Sin]

We have a plan that might help the town out. YosFlavouredCayke, you are NOT to target DaSpot tonight. Balam, same thing. We trust DaSpot's claim more than either of your claims, since Copper has made valid points about the potential scum link between you two. Both of you pick someone else to target tonight or be prepared to be lynched tomorrow for fucking over the town.

DaSpot, please track Balam, YosFlavouredCayke, or their potential scumpartner, if you think you know who it is. If you decide not to choose one of these two, you had better be very certain.

The players with the doctor role will be protecting DaSpot tonight.

Tomorrow, Balam and YosFlavouredCayke will reveal who they targeted, and DaSpot will announce who they tracked. This will keep Balam and YosFlavouredCayke honest.

Balam, we are prepared to not believe you if the person you target ends up dead, so don't even try that shit.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Note that this plan should only be enacted if FD comes up as a vanilla townie. If they come up as a power role (unlikely), we know to lynch Balam tomorrow and YosFlavouredCayke after that. If they come up as scum, we aren't in LYLO, and I doubt that YosFlavouredCayke and Balam just bussed FD *and* made a complicated claim confirm. So if FD doesn't come up as a townie without abilities, all power roles should just resume doing their thing. This may or may not mean doing your part of the plan anyway, it's up to you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

13 players, 3 scum (at least 1 with power), at least 1 town power role. Seems about right, actually.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Lmao, Balam...you are still so desperate to push the jailkepper myth. We don't believe YosCayke is a scum jailkeeper anyway, so why are you so desperate to convince us that it's not possible?

[Mastermind of Sin]

I think I mostly got carried away by the time the mass claim came around. I was really pissed that everyone just threw out their claims before Yos and Balam revealed their results, and I was just seeing red after that. I know that my play was awful yesterday, and that sucks for the town. Still, I cannot believe that YosCayke was willing to go straight to the quicklynch without talking this through at all. That was not good town play either. There are countless examples of town voting in LYLO and the scum not quicklynching, and yet YosCayke still took that as evidence that we were scum. That did not make sense as the reason for an immediate quicklynch vote, since they *knew* if they were wrong the game was immediately over. Two scum votes is a lot easier to coordinate than three, that's for sure.

Going into today, I honestly had no idea we were going to get lynched. Based on the previous day, it felt obvious that the lynches were going to be Copper, PC, then probably us. I went into the day trying to recuperate my mistakes, and Primate was tasked with studying the other players to find out who scum was. I felt for sure that a protown YosCayke would take the opportunity to gather as much information on the last scum as possible, even if they were convinced of who the second one was, which is why I presented the mass-ISO plan. It really threw my reads for a loop when they completely ignored it, and I actually went back to thinking they might be a scum jailkeeper.

I just remembered the argument I had for us being protown, and I'm kinda sad I forgot to present it, although I get the feeling it wouldn't have helped. Going into that night after the FD lynch, YosCayke and Balam had identified Copper and PC as scum. Thus, the smart choice for scum would be to have their third member make the nightkill. Yet, even though YosCayke blocked us, someone still died. That was pretty strong evidence for us being town, since there was pretty much no reason to suspect we would be blocked that night (especially with the doctor soft-claim). Still, too little too late, I wish I had remembered to say this before we got speedlynched.

We didn't really have any reason to think PC was the other scum except for Yos/Balam's claims that it was them, which is why we didn't commit to a PC lynch right away going into today. Still, that influenced us to only be looking for one scum out of Fonzi/FES, which was really difficult since they both seemed so damned scummy. It didn't really matter, though, since YosCayke didn't give anyone time to do some ISOs and try to find that third partner before we made a lynch today.

Regardless of the above comments, though, none of that excuses my terrible play the day before, so I'm sorry for putting the town in that position. Well played scum, you probably shouldn't have won this easily but you managed to capitalize on town stupidity all around and props for that.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You know what, MoS? I'd have seen red if I were town over your refusal to participate in the massclaim in the manner agreed to. You were more suspicious of Yos, you should have claimed first. I've seen 'I don't want to claim, because then he'll change his claim based on mine' standoffs before, and the only resolution is to go with the will of the town. Which was MM before Yos, because that's what the popcorn decreed.

The mass claim should not have happened before the results were claimed anyway, and the town players should not have gone ahead with a mass claim without getting input from everyone first. We never got to comment on how the mass claim should be conducted, which is why I took such issue with it going down so poorly. The town really flubbed that one, imo. It is *always* in the town's best interest to get everyone's opinion on a plan before moving forward with it, and that ended up screwing us because from my end I saw scum (YosCayke/Balam) pushing a poorly executed mass claim so they could set up Yos' claim, and from their end they saw us refusing to claim as being scummy. If we had been allowed to voice our objections before the mass claim was in progress, it would have gone much better. The scum helped push the mass claim forward, but the protown players should not have gone along with it so easily without discussing how to conduct it first. Mass claims are never inherently protown, they have to be executed carefully in order to protect the value of information revealed.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have to give Yos mad props though. Mafia Traitor is a tough role to play, but he correctly identified the scumteam and defended them at every opportunity.

Lawl.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Gah. MOS, I really thought you were town earlier, I acutally had you on my confimed town list, but then when you came out of nowhere and quickvoted me in lynch or lose for reasons that made zero sense, I decided you had to be scum. Why would you do that? You went from treating me as town to suddenly being willing to bet the whole game on me being scum, for zero reason, in a way that made no sense. The "He can't be a jailkeeper, Balam must be lying, so let's lynch Yos" argument was horrible; if the onyl way I could be scum is if Balam was lying, then lynching me instead of lynching Balam made zero sense. The only conclusion I could come to was that you were scum and were trying to get steal a sudden win.

Well, the way I saw it, it was a two-fold possibility. Either you were a mafia roleblocker, or your were scum with Balam. However, I didn't really see Balam being scum without you, since he could have just let you be lynched. Also, we didn't quickvote you. There was a fair amount of discussion before we placed our vote. It finally got to the point where I couldn't see myself changing my mind about you being scum, so we placed our vote. That was a mistake because we were wrong, but if you want to blame someone for quickvoting, look to yourselves instead. How could you completely fail to consider the numerous games where a townie has voted another townie in LYLO and the scum haven't quicklynched?

[Mastermind of Sin]

It seemed like you were treating me as town for most of the day, you actually hammered Fate, and then all of a sudden you were treating me as scum even though Balam's claim was now confirmed by Fate's flip, and it didn't make any sense at all.

Really, it seemed like you had done a really good job at faking town, and then at lynch -1, you got greedy and irrationally went for a mislynch that didn't make any sense. That was the only conclusion I could come to based on your actions. I was actually seriously considering that Incognito might have been town and FES might have been scum, which is why I didn't take FES up on his offer, but I didn't think you could be town after that play.

Actually, I thought my ISO on you before Fate was lynched revealed some inconsistencies that showed we already suspected you. Primate was the one who hammered Fate, not me, and he did it without consulting me. I would not have supported that vote at that point, I would have voted you instead. That is why I tried to do damage control by coming up with a plan to keep you and Balam from having convenient result claims the next day. It's not like I came out of nowhere the next day to attack you. I had put plenty of information out there about my suspicions the day before.

If I do something irrational, it usually means that I am town. Anyone who has played a game where I was scum knows that I tend to seem a lot more reasonable when I am scum. When I am town I have a Cassandra Complex where I can never seem to convince the town that I am right (whether or not I actually am right, it still happens). Irrationality is a town tell for me, not a scum tell.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thoughts on the hydra aspect of the game?

As you probably gathered, we had some issues with activity. Most of our Copper games are done when we anticipate large swaths of free time, but this was done as a favor to TBM. Our play suffered accordingly. Thankfully, the scumteam still won.

Thanks for that!

Hydra games make it so much easier for scum to win. Setups need to be balanced for that, although I'd rather just never have another all-hydra game.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Coaches will just epic flake and the noobs will flounder.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Wait, so if we start guessing, you'll tell us if we're right about your heads? Cuz I'm pretty sure I know at least one of them...

=P