Mini 1166: Town Hall Mafia (GAME OVER)

[ThAdmiral]

/confirm

[ThAdmiral]

Vote: SaBlLiminAL

Annoyingly capped name.

2nd place for name annoyance = th3kuzinator

[ThAdmiral]

Vote: SaBlLiminAL

Annoyingly capped name.

2nd place for name annoyance = th3kuzinator

Discussion was moving in a different direction. Why did you feel the need to place an RVS vote?

It's a way of checking in and saying "hi".

Turns out I like where my vote is, however, courtesy of the doc/cop thing.

[ThAdmiral]

Are you scum with other people?

[ThAdmiral]

He seems upset that I have identified a townie so soon.

This is the best point in the game so far.

vote: kuz

that's -1

@ kuz: why would you assume that we would know your playstyle, and then get all whiny when it turns out we don't?

[ThAdmiral]

The overdefensiveness is not the main point, it's the fact that he seems really upset that someone has a town-read on someone else.

Question: what does scum have to gain by claiming to have a town-read on someone? Oppose that to: what does a scum have to gain in a situation where no one has town-reads on anyone else?

[ThAdmiral]

@Admiral and IAAUS: Show me where I was upset. You're blowing my posts way out of proportion.

The wagon on me is so freaking scummy and agreed with Mitsuru that Admiral's vote was flat out disgusting.

Dude if you can't take an honest look at your posts and say that you didn't sound aggressive and upset then there's no point talking about it.

You say that's your normal style - can you link me to some of your games?

[ThAdmiral]

For the second, I don't see where kuz has remotely used his playstyle to explain or excuse anything.

Are you reading this game?

Overdefensive? It's called I don't let anyone try to take advantage of me. I am known throughout smashboards for doing town gambits. It's just what I like to do because it makes the game more enjoyable/exciting for me.

Why do people keep assuming I am upset? lol. Apparently any type of aggressive posting is taken as a sign of being butthurt. It's my playstyle, get over it.

ThA:

Question: what does scum have to gain by claiming to have a town-read on someone? Oppose that to: what does a scum have to gain in a situation where no one has town-reads on anyone else?

That's only the question if you're asking "is iama mafia?" 

Also, you should be considering the countersituation of what a protown might do. There are legitimate reasons to oppose a townread, although I don't think they apply in this instance.

Granted it's not quite as simple as what I've said. Mafia is never black-and-white after all.

[ThAdmiral]

@ mitsuru: Why do you think it is a newbtown tactic?

[ThAdmiral]

He seems upset that I have identified a townie so soon.

This is the best point in the game so far.

vote: kuz

that's -1

This is a horrible reason to put kuz at L-1. Even if that is the best point in the game, its not a L-1 worthy point. Especially because I see the same reasoning regarding iam/cworl as he does. He may have picked the wrong choice of words to express the point, but its sound logic.

I think we will have to agree to disagree here.

Furthermore in a 9 player game people are going to be getting to -1 fairly quickly. To me this is a good thing as the main point of wagons are pressure, and being at -1 is as much pressure as a person can be under. This will help with reads as people's behavior is most telling when they are under pressure.

Talking about behavior...
Note that since kuz has been at -1:
- he hasn't claimed, even though he has posted and therefore has had a chance to do so.
- other than the one post he has basically stopped posting. This is particularly odd as during the first few days of this game he was involved in a flurry of posts.

The overdefensiveness is not the main point, it's the fact that he seems really upset that someone has a town-read on someone else.

Question: what does scum have to gain by claiming to have a town-read on someone? Oppose that to: what does a scum have to gain in a situation where no one has town-reads on anyone else?

c'mon, one look at your join date tells me you should know better than this.

You're telling me in your 4-5 years on site, you've

never

seen scum call out town reads or agree with town reads?

That scum

always

try to make sure nobody has town reads on anybody and are likely to get visually upset if someone expresses a solid town read? I don't buy it.

Bolding mine.

That's not the point though. Town-reads just shouldn't really be questioned, even if they are by scum. If scum want to claim a town-read on town, fine by me. That's just one less town they will be able to lynch come end of day. In fact if scum want to claim a town-read on

scum

, great! Just makes it that much easier to catch their buddy when they die.

[ThAdmiral]

I tend to think of buddying as somewhat more sophisticated than what you are implying. To me buddying is stuff like agreeing with someone's reads, defending them against attacks, copying their cases,

as well as

calling them town.

[ThAdmiral]

Fishy:
Why are you only considering cases where kuz is innocent?

1) I'm not. Not at all.

Seems like you are, dude.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAd:
1) If kuz is town, I think you and to a lesser extent EmpTyger are likely scum.
2) If kuz is scum, that's not the case.
So when I make that case, it's going to sound like I'm assuming kuz is town. But all that I'm really assuming is that there's enough chance of kuz being town that trying to get him lynched in bad ways is scummy. Which is true for everyone in the game.

Fair enough.

Second point is entirely accurate, and telling, though.

Yeah. Newbscum has disappeared. No surprises here.

[ThAdmiral]

Yeah, but this is the only game he's in, so that doesn't really mean anything...

[ThAdmiral]

Is disappearing really a scumtell? I'm not convinced that scum under pressure are more likely to stop posting than town under pressure.

I think it is far more likely to point to scum than town.

Somehow I missed this response to me:

I tend to think of buddying as somewhat more sophisticated than what you are implying. To me buddying is stuff like agreeing with someone's reads, defending them against attacks, copying their cases,

as well as

calling them town.

1) OK. The point I was criticising (from 86, that town reads shouldn't be questioned) is still absurd to the point where I doubt you could believe it.
2) On the other point, you seem to be saying both of the following:
- The main point of wagons at this stage is pressure, and you put kuz at L-1 to put him under pressure.
- It's scummy that kuz hasn't claimed at L-1.
Did you think kuz would claim when you put him at L-1? Did you want him to?

1) We'll have to agree to disagree.
2) To be honest I wasn't thinking of forcing a claim when I put him to -1; it was mainly to put pressure on and to see how he would respond. However given that he was at -1 for a while and his response (which was basically just whining) made him look even worse I do believe he should have claimed.

[ThAdmiral]

Seems to me there's a pretty blatant contradiction between you saying he's scummy for not claiming at L-1, and you saying you weren't thinking about claims when putting him there. If you think that being at L-1 is a good reason for claiming, you don't put someone there without wanting them to claim.

Well I have to admit sometimes I don't think all that far ahead, but to say that I have been acting in a "blatantly contradictory" way is a bit over the top.
I further address this point down at the bottom of this post.

Well let me say it another way. I questioned iam's town read on cworl because it seemed like a questionable reason to call cworl town. Scum don't need to find legit town reads, because they know town from scum (not 3rd parties or other scum but you know what I mean). Calling another player town for a bad reason looks like fake scumhunting (er, townhunting? POE scumhunting?) in an attempt to look like a townie.

You're probably right that this does happen, but I'm not sure how much scum do this. Do you think Iam was doing it in this case?

I disagree that town reads shouldn't be questioned if the reason for the town read is bad. Townies shouldn't be riding other players off as town so easily for weak reasons. Bad town reads should be questioned to the same extent as bad scum reads.

Ok, well obviously if a town read is based on something terribad it should be questioned, but I think Iam's read was based on something not-insignificant.

Given your examples:
scum claims bad town-read on town: I see town and scum reverse town reads all the time. They're certainly not locked out of not voting the townie at the end of the day, and it isn't a scum tell to do so because townies do it all the time too.

But if you're trying to say it doesn't make them look worse/more suspicious

at all

you are wrong. Sure they can make up a reason for their behaviour flip, and sometimes it might even be a good one, but any given scum would rather not have to go back on one of their reads if given the choice.

scum claims bad town-read on scum: "great! Just makes it that much easier to catch their buddy when they die." - given this is your thought, wouldn't it be plausible that clever scum claim town reads on townies to set up false scum partner links in the event the scum dies? Don't say it never happens because I once got lynched as a townie due to a similar false connection to a dead scum.

Sure this happens. But occams razor. That is all.

town claims bad town-read on scum: scum potentially gets a free ride if the town doesn't question the bad town read.

Of all four scenarios this is the only one that truly is bad for town, but the likelihood of a scum making a town-tell is much less than the likelihood of an actual town making a town-tell so I don't think this is as much of a danger as you think it is.

to be thorough...

town claims bad town-read on town: a bad read is a bad read even if it happens to be correct. It deserves to be questioned just like a bad scum read even if it happens to be correct.

Yeah, but you can't argue with the fact that in this situation the town cause is helped, not hindered, by the read.

In summary: 3 out of 4 ain't bad, especially when the 1 that is bad for town is also very rare.

I don't have any problem with putting someone at L-1. I have a problem with someone placed at L-1 (or any vote really) for a bad reason. So back to your original vote, what makes kuz's objection to the town-read vote worthy, but my objection not?

I don't remember your objection sticking out from before. I went back and had a look and the tone and content of your objection compared to kuz's is totally different. You were asking a question to iama, kuz was basically getting mad about it.

Last point - automatically claiming at L-1 isn't a mandatory procedure. Kuz wasn't stalling, it was clear he wasn't - well, shouldn't - be getting lynched yet, no one was asking him to claim, and no one was threatening to hammer. If you wanted kuz to claim, why didn't you ask him to?

Fishy said he thought kuz was "scummy" and emp said "I'm ready to shift my vote back to you", so I'm not sure where you are getting the "no one was threatening to hammer" from.
Perhaps I should have asked kuz to claim, but I didn't.

[ThAdmiral]

It seems like ThAd isn't trying to pressure kuz trying to get a read on him, but more like he's just trying to convince the rest of us to suspect/vote kuz.

Can't I be doing both?
I thought the whole point is to try to convince others to vote who you think is scum?

Second point is entirely accurate, and telling, though.

Yeah. Newbscum has disappeared. No surprises here.

right, because newbtown

never

get frustrated and disappear either

I would say it's a better indication that they are scum than that they are town.

@ThAdmiral: What kind of response were you looking for if you weren't intending on kuz claiming?

When I pressure someone I'm not looking for a particular thing for them to say, although in general I like people to explain themselves and why they were saying what they were saying. Often I look more at how they say it than what they say - I try to gauge if they are being open and honest; I try to gauge their motivations etc.

I think a lot of people- on both sides of the argument- are missing the point.
The issue is not what the correct reaction in an abstract lynch-1 situation.
The issue is how *kuz* reacted in *this game*.

Bing-fucking-go!

[ThAdmiral]

For the people voting ThAdmiral, I want to note that I was recently in a game with him where he was town, and he hammered two players within the first eight pages of the game without waiting or even asking for a claim, and I would like to know if this information has any effect on your reads here.

Btw they were both scum as well.

That game was awesome.

[ThAdmiral]

What about kuz's reaction to being at L-1 makes him scum?

- Whining about being called scum
- saying the people who called him scum were scum
- disappearing

Basically, I'm saying town or scum can point out town tells (or scum tells) on town or scum, and the only way to do that is in fact through questioning players' town reads and scum reads. There is no set rule that if a player calls town on another player, you will no for sure the other's allignment when one of them flips.

You're right. I have probably been banging on about the situation too hard, but I believe two things are true:
1. scum is far more likely to call people scum, and far less likely to call people town
2.

generally

when someone has a town tell on someone else they shouldn't be attacked for it for the reasons we have already talked about

I don't remember your objection sticking out from before. I went back and had a look and the tone and content of your objection compared to kuz's is totally different. You were asking a question to iama, kuz was basically getting mad about it.

It looked more like obnoxious disbelief rather than anger to me, but in the context of his playstyle I can see how it looks like anger.

Isn't it just semantics though? I mean, 2 different ways of saying the same thing

. Emp's argument is that kuz isn't a newb, but if this comment makes kuz scum I would have to believe he is newbscum because experienced scum aren't going to get mad about a townie calling town on another townie (especially in the first 4 pages of the game) let alone show that anger in thread. Whereas, if I thought scum hated townies to have town read on other townies, I'd look first for the more experienced guy going about it discretely (not to implicate myself or anything ). Just thinking about the possibility that you singled out kuz because his playstyle would make him an easier lynch.

I think

tone

and the

way

something is said is very important when trying to determine alignment.

dammit run out time.

more later...

[ThAdmiral]

Can't I be doing both?
I thought the whole point is to try to convince others to vote who you think is scum?

You can do both, but not a the same time. If you're convincing others to vote who you think is scum, you have to already think the player is scum, and thus already have a read. IMO, it seemed like you skipped the figuring out stage and jumped right into the convincing others to lynch him stage. Unless you "figured out" he was scum entirely from his reaction to iaun calling cworl town, then I stand by my original comment that its a weak reason for thinking kuz is scum.

I see what you mean. I did go through the figuring out stage, although it may not have been obvious. I was confident enough that he was a good chance of scum when I put him to -1 and everything he did since then only made me more confident so naturally I began to try to convince people more and more to vote him.

@ThAd: *twitch* is the fact that they were both scum in that other game supposed to make us think you're town who's right about kuz in this game? (rhetorical question, mostly).

Yup.

[ThAdmiral]

Between the contrived listing of possibilities, arguing about town reads, and speculating about why kuz left, I don't feel like there's enough at this point to make my vote.

Cop out. Vote somebody.

[ThAdmiral]

To vote is to take responsibility. To not vote is to avoid taking responsibility.

Ergo = cop-out.

[ThAdmiral]

Yeah, wtf?

vote: c-world

[ThAdmiral]

Sue me for it.

I'd rather vote you for it.

[ThAdmiral]

However, I'm still leaning towards ThAdmiral right now. His vote just shows that he will do anything to not get lynched, and I'm sure if another bandwagon forms he will be on that one with little explanation as to why he's on it.

Wait what?

How is me voting c-word for an absolutely terribad wagon-jump indicitive of me "doing anything to not get lynched"?
C-word has one other vote on him, and I would have voted him even if he didn't. How does that suggest I will jump on another bandwagon with little explanation?

[ThAdmiral]

So regardless of anyone else you would've OMGUSd me? Good to know.

Not every time a person votes someone that votes them can it be reduced to omgus. I voted you because you jumped on a wagon you didn't believe in to try to push a lynch through in a game where people have been posting pretty regularly. It was opportunistic and scummy. I don't buy the whole "push things forward" bs.

[ThAdmiral]

C-Worl's reason for voting ThAd is pretty bad. However, it doesn't look particularly scummy to me - I can't see scum just admitting they don't really have a reason to hop on a bandwagon.

Actually you're right. It was bad play, but scum don't normally say stuff like that.

unvote

Yeah, can we not do this? C-Worl is town, ThAd is town, let's all rewind a little and notice how Archaist's catch-up post was a whole lot of words that said absolutely nothing and lynch him instead.

You're also right. I got sidetracked but kuz/archaist is the real scum here.

vote: archaist

[ThAdmiral]

You never gave a single reason to any of the votes you casted. You have only been agreeing with other people's thoughts. In fact, two out of these three votes came from agreeing with iamausername. Maybe you forgot your own definition of buddying

I did give a reason for my votes, though. When I initially voted kuz I said I was voting him for the best reason in the game so far. I have since explained my stance on kuz ad nauseum.
I also gave a reason for voting c-worl; admittedly this was after the fact.

I tend to think of buddying as somewhat more sophisticated than what you are implying. To me buddying is stuff like agreeing with someone's reads, defending them against attacks, copying their cases, as well as calling them town.

How am I supposed to think you are town when you are giving no additional reasons for your votes and just copying other people's reasons?

I think that is just my playstyle. I will often find myself agreeing with someone else's case if I believe it is good, especially on day one.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm thinking ThAd at the moment. I'm not exactly happy with the general bandwagon hopping. First Kuz, then CWorl, and now back to Archaist. Of these votes, both of them have been preceded by votes and quotes from iamausername, which makes me suspicious of him as well, though not quite to the degree of ThAdmiral, since it could just as easily be coincidence, and nothing is concrete.

What I find weird is that you are approaching this situation without even

considering

that kuz/archaist might be scum.

[ThAdmiral]

@ sab: nice statistics. Are you just going to leave it at that or are you going to do analysis?

Alright ThAD. Aside from Archaist, who do you think is scum and why? I'm interested to see your own reasoning behind scumtells, as we've seen very little of your own opinion throughout this game.

- Seaworld for the vote on me "to get the game moving forward" which was basically out of nowhere. This is one blip though, he's been pretty good other than that.
- you (mitsuru) mainly for your very cagey approach to the game. Earlier you said that the wagon on kuz was too fast and that you wouldn't be hammering. At the same time however you didn't put your vote on anyone on the wagon even though you thought it was suspicious. Also you haven't addressed the point that c-worl brought up about kuz not being a newb, which was your main reason for thinking he was town.

[ThAdmiral]

@ sab: nice statistics. Are you just going to leave it at that or are you going to do analysis?

Well scum like to bandwagon, and that's what you've done so far in this game. I would imagine that the other scum player is probably trying to do the exact opposite of what you're doing to remain under the radar. Like I said before, the majority of bandwagons you were on also included iam, which makes me consider you two are scum. However, I feel that the best vote is you because of the reasons I already said.

So I had a look through your data...

1. You included my rvs vote as a bandwagon vote.
2. You included my vote on c-worl as a bandwagon vote even though it was only the second vote on him, and would have been the first if I had gotten on a few hours earlier.

Seriously?

That's pretty bad analysis.

[ThAdmiral]

@ThAdmiral: Feel free to ignore it if you want, I don't really care.

Wait, did you ask me something I didn't answer?

[ThAdmiral]

Well I'm happy where my vote is and I don't want to move it. I seriously don't get why you don't want to lynch kuz/arch.

For the sake of pushing through a deadline lynch, however, I would be willing to move my vote to sab, mk or c-worl.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd:
Why sAb?

I don't think he's put himself out there all that much, and to be honest I don't like his reasoning.

[ThAdmiral]

I see what you did there mitsuro. Asking questions about other people to deflect attention off of yourself.

MK is officially my second pick for scum.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd:

I see what you did there mitsuro. Asking questions about other people to deflect attention off of yourself.

That's not suspicious, that's not even close to what's happening, and MK is asking good questions.

What? He's asking the people who were attacking him for the bussing angle what they think of each other and other people pretty much out of nowhere. It's exactly what he was doing.

[ThAdmiral]

Next time guys, just listen to me.

Sab looks bad, but I'm going to go for the guy who kept saying he was suspicious of kuz, but hardly ever voted him except for at the very start.

vote: emptyger

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd:
Yes, I messed up by backing off of Archaist in [213]. I concede that this was suspicious and I deserve some scrutiny for it. But *not* for the reason you listed. Certainly not when I spent most of yesterday being accused of pushing the kuz/Archaist bandwagon. Now you're accusing me of being kuz/Archaist's partner for trying to push his mislynch, yet in a way that wouldn't earn me towncred...?

In a game with only 9 players I don't see it being unlikely for you to not want to vote your partner as long as there was some chance of another wagon being successful.
Meta question: would you say you normally bus or try to avoid it?

In any case, I counter whatever suspicion I incurred by pointing out that I derailed the MK counterwagon. As for the rest of your suspect list-
Why would sAb post [254] if he were Archaist's comafia?
Why aren't Fishy and Rhinox on your suspect list?

Good point about sab. He could have figured someone else would have picked up on it anyway, but...
The other side of the coin is that he didn't vote kuz even though he had the option, and that makes him look bad by default in my eyes.

Fishy I'm not so sure about. I actually didn't notice rhinox's "That should be hammer" until now and that is pretty terribad.
I am suspicious of them in as much as the only person I am pretty sure is town is iamausername.

[ThAdmiral]

I actually didn't notice rhinox's "That should be hammer" until now and that is pretty terribad.

Why is it bad?

Um, because it was so close to deadline, and if other people believed you there may not have been a lynch.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd:
If sAb's mafia trying to be thought town: he hammers Archaist himself. 
If sAb's mafia trying to save his comafia: he keeps quiet or plays along with Rhinox for a few hours until the no-lynch hits.
sAb's [254] only makes sense if he's town.  It doesn't provide any advantage to him if he's mafia.  It only alerts the town to the fact that Rhinox didn't really lynch Archaist, which enables someone else to lynch Archaist.  Which is the absolute last thing the mafia would want at that point.

While I think it is somewhat dangerous to say definitively what scum would or would not do, this is logical stuff. Sab is off my scumlist.

I actually didn't notice rhinox's "That should be hammer" until now and that is pretty terribad.

Why is it bad?

Um, because it was so close to deadline, and if other people believed you there may not have been a lynch.

hmmm... good point I didn't think of that.

So, do you think my intention was to cause a no lynch then?

It certainly could have been. I understand going for a fake-hammer can get interesting reactions, I have done it myself when I've gotten the chance, but doing it so close to the end of the day is dangerous.

[ThAdmiral]

also

unvote

Emptyger is posting good stuff.

[ThAdmiral]

PoE:

vote: Rhinox

[ThAdmiral]

The fact that he was the major counterwagon of the day was absolutely nothing to do with kuz/Archaist, who was at all times a lot more interested in pushing a counter-counterwagon on C-Worl, and in fact never voted ThAd, even when it was clear that one of the two of them was definitely going to be lynched.

While this is true he didn't vote

anyone

but c-worl all day.

[ThAdmiral]

@ iama: how did you know the scum killed c-worl before fishy's claim?

[ThAdmiral]

Still...

I mean it's not like they had different kill flavor or anything, they were both just "shot to death".

[ThAdmiral]

Still here, been busy lately.

Rereading iamausername and there are a couple of things I don't like.

Firstly:

I am obvtown after yesterday, so killing me would not implicate Rhinox in any way. I have demonstrated a stubborn refusal to let go of my top suspect, and the ability to get them lynched. Rhinox would have every reason to believe that a) I would come into this day after his blood, and b) I have the power to exert my will upon this town. No way he kills anyone but me.

This doesn't read good. He sounds like he is taking the majority of the credit for kuz/archaist's lynch and basing the fact that he is "obvtown" on this fact. While it is true that iama was influential in getting archaistscum lynched, other people (namely c-worl and myself) were also heavily involved, and if I remember correctly iama was actually absent for large swaths of the game on day 1.

Secondly:
He goes from this...

I don't think I need to explain why ThAd is town.

...to this...

Unvote

VOTE: ThAdmiral

...in 24 hours.

[ThAdmiral]

Admittedly that's true, but I doubt I'd have liked it much more if your sudden change of heart was directed at anyone else either.

[ThAdmiral]

Why didn't you have any problem with me taking most of the credit for the Archaist lynch before I voted for you?

They were simpler times then...

Seriously though I didn't really think about you as potential scum because of your actions regarding archaist day 1. Then you voted me seemingly out of nowhere so I looked back at your posts.

ThAd/iama:
Can either of you explain how kuz/Archaist's play makes sense with the other of you as partner?

I'd have to take another look back at the entirety of how day 1 played out. I mean "hardbussing for extreme distancing" is the simple answer but the trick is in determining how likely that would be.
Watch this space.

Be fair. In #275 he listed everyone but fishy as town, and then fishy claimed and became prob town to him. He was going to have to go back on one of his town reads. Its not like nothing happened in those 24 hours to justify his change in view.

This is truth. However what struck me was the tone change - it went from what seemed like 100% certainty in me being town ("I don't think I need to explain why...") to having me as his leading suspect. You have to admit that's odd.

Disliking ThAd's 304. It's a bad post attacking a player who just voted him. That stinks.

I don't really see what stinks about me pointing out someone who could cynically be viewed as attempting to rewrite history in his favor and who has also displayed inconsistent behaviour.

[ThAdmiral]

It bothers me that Rhinox pointed this out, and ThAd replied to my statement about 304 by just repeating that iam had been inconsistent.

what struck me was the tone change - it went from what seemed like 100% certainty in me being town ("I don't think I need to explain why...") to having me as his leading suspect. You have to admit that's odd.

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd, what is your point, exactly? You were surprised that I turned on you rather than anyone else when Fishy confirmed himself as town, because you were under the impression that I had a stronger town read on you than anyone else, yes?

Pretty much.

[ThAdmiral]

This might sound harsh but now I'm thinking sab's 254 could just be bad scum-play. I mean he's only had 25 posts here and I know I've done far stupider stuff in my time...

Also @ fishy: if you think there's a chance of a scum rb don't say who you're targeting tonight!

[ThAdmiral]

I mean he's only had 25 posts here and I know I've done far stupider stuff in my time...

I have no idea how this is supposed to relate to my 254 being a bad scum-play. Could you explain why?

Simple: inexperience.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm still here...

[ThAdmiral]

What do you think of Rhinox's explanations of his fake hammer post? Why else do you think he's scum?

Well I've fakehammered a lot of times, I like it as a gambit. But in this case the circumstances make it seem weird.
1. There was a vote count two posts above rhinox's post saying clearly that arch was on 3 and needed 5 to lynch. For obvious reasons fakehammers are best when there hasn't been a vote count in a while.
2. It was right near the deadline. Once again for obvious reasons it is dangerous to fakehammer near the deadline because if you do happen to trick people it can cause a nolynch. Also if the person being fakehammered actually responds in a townie way there may not be enough time to get off them and get on to a more viable target anyway.

In my mind if rhinox is scum there are two very good reasons for him to fakehammer when he did: either to get the nolynch, or to try and get a "townie" reaction out of archaist so people (or even just himself) jump off him. In the second case he could have waited for archaist to say "this sucks, I'm town - good luck everyone etc." and then rhinox could have said "shit, that seems town to me, unvote, vote: whoever" and then avoided archaist being lynched.

[ThAdmiral]

So fine. Here's what's going to happen.
You will name who today's lynch will be.
You will name your target tonight.
You will demand claims from the other 3 players, the ones who will be around tomorrow if your 2 picks are wrong.
You (and the 2 you marked for death) will provide final input on which of the other 3 should die, to help the ones alive tomorrow.
Then we will lynch your 1st choice. If game continues:
Then you will kill your 2nd choice.
Then you will die. If game continues:
The survivors tomorrow will be in the best possible position to make the final determination.
And you can say you did everything in your power to help your side win.

This plan is fair and I believe will give us the best chance of winning.
Fishy - over to you.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm having a hard time following what your stance is sab. Who is your preferred lynch for today, and if you had vig powers who would you kill tonight, and why?

[ThAdmiral]

I'm pretty happy to follow you at this juncture. Rhinox and sab are my scumpicks so I would be up for a lynch of either of them.

[ThAdmiral]

unvote

Vote: sab

I'm not sure I'll be able to get on again before deadline.

[ThAdmiral]

Massclaim can't hurt.

[ThAdmiral]

Vanilla town.

Next up rhinox.

[ThAdmiral]

I actually wouldn't mind either way. I know the accepted procedure is to no-lynch in this situation but in 3 man lylo one town votes wrong it's all over. With 4 man lylo 2 town have to vote wrong.

[ThAdmiral]

@ emp: Well other than the fact that I am paranoid it might be you or iama if I was going to vote now it would be rhinox as him being scum makes more sense.

[ThAdmiral]

Vote: no lynch

It is technically the most logical move after all.

[ThAdmiral]

unvote

Yeah, I mainly wanted to breathe some life in to this game because it seemed to have stalled. I do probably feel more comfortable no-lynching at this stage though.

I haven't done a full in-depth read-through or anything but I have looked back at the game. Iama is so town because of day 1, emp is town because of a bunch of posts he made early day 2, the only point in Rhinox's favor is the one iama pointed out about c-worl dying instead of himself but that is based on a fairly big assumption imo (i.e. that rhinox viewed the game-state the same way iama did).

Currently I have it as:

Scum to town

Rhinox
-
-
-
-
Emp
-
-
Iama

[ThAdmiral]

You know actually I don't think there is any point to no-lynching.

I see three things happening over night if we no lynch:

1. Iama is town, is the obvious night-kill.
2. Iama is scum, kills someone else - still probably wouldn't be lynched tomorrow so he'd win anyway.
3. Scum no-kills - we are in exactly the same situation.

A no-lynch only really helps us if Iama is scum, but a) that is unlikely and I don't think it is the case, and b) he will probably win anyway if he is (and would frankly deserve to).


Thoughts?

[ThAdmiral]

While he's doing that you should summarize everything you've said about emp being scum, including all his alleged misreps.

You must know I also want to lynch you today, but I promise to keep an open mind and read your case.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm still here, but have been smashed by work and assignments recently. I'll read up and post.

Sorry about the absence.

[ThAdmiral]

@ rhinox: There is definitely misrepresentation there, fairly bad stuff that looks even worse since emp has chosen not to readdress it, however as you allude to some of emptyger's attacks could be explained by his being overzealous. But I think your best point against him is his hypocritical attack on you for your voting behaviour at the end of day 1 when his was arguably even more suspicious. His response at the time was:

Yes, I messed up by backing off of Archaist in [213]. I concede that this was suspicious and I deserve some scrutiny for it. But *not* for the reason you listed. Certainly not when I spent most of yesterday being accused of pushing the kuz/Archaist bandwagon. Now you're accusing me of being kuz/Archaist's partner for trying to push his mislynch, yet in a way that wouldn't earn me towncred...?

which, while reasonable, doesn't let him off the hook as in a game with only 9 players he may have been trying to avoid wagoning his partner as much as possible while there were other viable targets available (and I said as much at the time).
However as bad as his behavior was, it doesn't mean your behavior

wasn't

suspicious and therefore his attack isn't completely invalidated.

Bottom line: the thing I can't get passed when theorizing about emp as scum is his defense of sab day 2. I can't really see the angle as scum unless he knew sab was going to end up as a mislynch and he could get towncred for it, but a) there was no way he could have known that and b) I don't believe that anyway.

And emp does bring up a good point about you not writing off certain players as town and focusing on the people you thought were scum. While emp has claimed certain players were def-town who he had no interest in lynching a bunch of times you seem to have kept your options more... open.

[ThAdmiral]

We should stick with who we have. I realize "rules is rules" and all that but this is just a tad ridiculous.

It's also unfair for jilynne to be caught in the crossfire like this.

[ThAdmiral]

Ok no need to get nasty. Beefster is much more likely to be reasonable if you are reasonable.

[ThAdmiral]

No need to apologize, you've done nothing wrong jilynne. We just have to wait for beefster to sort this out.

[ThAdmiral]

@ emp: wait until mod is my vote.
If jilynne does replace in however I think lynching before she has to reread is probably the fairest option.

But

I'm still flipping back-and-forth between whether no-lynching would actually be useful. It could provide information in the admittedly unlikely situation of Iama being the scum, and even if you (emp) are the scum, which is less unlikely but still unlikely, it might provide information as arguably the best move in

that

situation would be for you to kill rhinox.

[ThAdmiral]

@ jilynne: that's a terrible plan. Only helpful for the scum.

[ThAdmiral]

@ card one: I was the -1 vote. I think that could explain any difference in his reaction to it. Furthermore it could also be attributed to a growing frustration due to the votes consistently piling on.

@ card two: slight misrepresentation here, but I can see why you would think that. I said I would be willing to move my vote to sab, mk, c-worl NOT necessarily because I had scum reads on them all (actually I did on mk, but not so much the other two) but largely because I was getting at least decent town-vibes from everyone else. Furthermore I made it clear that I would move my vote to these people only if necessary to ensure a lynch.
You are right about me being sidetracked by c-worl, though. I admit I overreacted to what was a dumb move, but not necessarily a scummy move.

@ card three: If you want to bring up my scum meta as a point against me that is fine, but in reality if you checked it out properly it would tell an entirely different story. While it is true that I have bussed a partner as scum before on day 1 this would be an extremely rare occurrence and I am far, FAR, more likely to not bus. I believe in general bussing is suboptimal play and I more or less only resort to it as a last option.

[ThAdmiral]

@ card two: you also didn't mention that from day 2 onwards my main suspect has been almost exclusively deduced via PoE from my list of townreads.

[ThAdmiral]

@ card number 4: I feel we've already gone through this. Essentially I was taken aback by your apparent flip on me, and I misjudged the strength of your townread on me. As far as lack of follow through: IMO I asked questions, they were discussed, you answered them adequately, I moved on.

@ card number 5: while that does sound logical it is based on an assumption that rhinox felt the same way about the game-state as you. Obviously, because I think rhinox is scum, I don't believe this to be the case. I think you might be underestimating how c-worl would have looked to the scum. Agree to disagree.

@ card number 6: as already mentioned he didn't vote

anyone else

at

any time

other than c-worl. I don't think there is much to be read in to his voting behavior.

@ card number 7: a) as brought up earlier rhinox could have been covering both bases by voting (thus distancing himself from) archaist, while also sneakily attempting to bring about a no-lynch. b) he also may have believed archaist was indeed going to be lynched due to your point raised in 249 and wanted to make sure he was one of the people who got on that lynch. Once again agree to disagree.

[ThAdmiral]

In case you haven't noticed, I AM LOOKING FOR MAFIA.

Really? All I've seen you do so far is:
- say that you agree with Iama that I'm probably scum
- state that you want a no-lynch, and
- ask everyone to put up who they'd vote tomorrow.

Now I'm not going to say that you only suggested that last thing so that you can decide who to nightkill for maximum chance of securing a scum win tomorrow, but...

Actually I am going to say that!

[ThAdmiral]

@ emp: well I was waiting to see what the consensus was on no-lynching, but I'd rather

vote: jilynne

The more jilynne talks the better I feel about this.

[ThAdmiral]

At work so will post more later but I would have killed iama as scum. That's a no brainer.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm pretty sure no iama kill means there is hardly any chance emp is scum. I don't see the angle for him not to kill iama.

Imo jilynne no-killed for one of two reasons:
1) iama was the only one who didn't support a jilynne lynch so obviously jil wasn't going to kill iama. Therefore he could have killed either me or emp and would much more likely have chosen emp. However it may have looked suspect if he did because why would I have killed emp? Therefore safest option would be to no-kill.
2) Without referencing any specific ongoing games I'm pretty sure jilynne is replacing out across the board. She may have just bailed and not submitted a kill.

vote: jilynne

[ThAdmiral]

I won't keep you on tenterhooks. My normal philosophy is to not speak before it's been made official but I'll make an exception.

If it isn't obvious already I am the scum.

Iama: you were so god damn good in this game. My biggest regret was killing c-worl night 1 instead of you. I thought you might consider me town because of how hard I pushed kuz/archaist day 1 but you saw right through that. You understood my scum mindset to a scary degree.

Emp: I couldn't have done it without you! That might sound tongue-in-cheek and harsh, and I'm sure it's never good to find out you have defended a scum for almost half a game, but I am 100% certain I would have done the same thing in your shoes.
You probably don't remember this but there was a game long ago in which I lost to you as town in lylo, so this just makes things nice and symmetrical.

For the record I never planned to lynch kuz. I was basically begging him to give me links to his older games and then I was going to say something like: "oh so he's always like this" and jump off him. I feel literally terrible that I essentially chased a new player from mafiascum. I can only imagine how frustrated he would have been.

[ThAdmiral]

I had planned to no-kill before jillyne started replacing out of all her games. It just so happens I got very lucky.
I was afraid emp wouldn't buy jill as scum if you ended up dead. I mean I could have argued wifom and all that but I really didn't think I could convince emp that jill killed the only person backing her. And I didn't want to kill emp. I figured that would have been the end of me.

[ThAdmiral]

Lol, I just realise Kuz has a 100% record on mafiascum. Well done that man!

[ThAdmiral]

I forgot to thank you for hosting beefster, so thank you!

I'm not going to browbeat you for draconian rule enforcing - some people are for it, some aren't. I think it would be good if you made sure everyone knows that you aren't prepared to bend the rules, however, as I'd imagine a lot of people are used to a bit of leeway. And then no one can really complain when you follow the rules to the letter of the law.

[ThAdmiral]

I thought I was screwed when jillyne replaced rhinox and started attacking me, but it all turned out good in the end.