Mini 1170: Nowhereville Mafia '11- Over!

[The Kool]

/confirm

1. Town power roles. I don't do well as mafia for some reason.
2. I'm on two or three times every day or two, except weekends. I can post frequently while on.
3. E

D

T
4. Eerily accurate. I don't follow them often, though.
5. No, my posts are usually fairly slim.

[The Kool]

Well, with that lengthy deadline, this is going to go a looot slower than I'm used to.

[The Kool]

Alright then, let's get this game started with style.

Espeonage, where were you on the night of tonight?

Also, anyone else find it weird that the two of them 'randomly' voted for the same guy?

[The Kool]

I have one, I've just been too lazy to resize it yet. Getting right on it.

[The Kool]

I have the sudden urge to bandwagon.

I know there is absolutely no reason for it. Yet I want to.

Is there something wrong with me?

[The Kool]

I'm not gonna throw around random votes, but rather random suspicions, until I find something that is even remotely possible to base a vote off of.

[The Kool]

I guess so, but you can still pressure someone pretty hard with some serious suspicions. I don't like getting someone near a lynch until I have reason to believe they are mafia.

[The Kool]

Yes, well there were already 3 votes on him, which would make mine vote 4. Since it does take 7 to lynch, however, we probably won't be lynching until someone slips up big time, and everyone jumps at them.

But I have to agree with Sleepy here. That post just confused me, and I have now worked out that it was confusing for a reason. So that means I'm gonna

VOTE: Elfen

[The Kool]

I would edit that... but I suppose it makes total sense for this forum NOT to have a post editing feature for the average user.

Anyway, just wanted to add that I do realize that this makes my vote now vote 5 for him, given Sleepy's vote, instead of just vote 4.

[The Kool]

We have as long as we make it. I am perfectly used to RVS as well, and where I came from a day is a week as well, and RVS there usually lasts longer than it just did here. Three weeks is just the limit, we could lynch today if everyone agreed the same guy was scum.

[The Kool]

It sure looks like making something out of something to me.

[The Kool]

Just got back from a day on the water. Gonna let this all digest before I make any further judgments.

[The Kool]

Because I don't vote for someone just because I'm confused. That would be stupid and pointless. I wait until I know that I was confused because of them, and not me, before I vote.

[The Kool]

Well to answer your question. No, I am against it. I hate the idea of lynching some one(if the RVS is still on) and it always end up town and the person always seems town but other people some how think they are suspicious, I always think they are town. But some reason they think the person is scum :/ That is why, on most of the games, I don't vote on the first day, it is way easer to find scum on the second day, looking back on what people have said and all. That is my style, waiting for information to pass by then go at it, not try to strive for it when I know I won't able to get it. I dont give a flying shit if other people vote for other people, that is fine by me, it gives me a chance to see why and what was the consequences in the action they had. I just don't want people to say that I am scum cause I don't vote and all. But for some reason they do.

Does that answer some of it?? If not Tell my what else I need to explain further

So you're willing to just sit back and let a townie get lynched on day 1? You're not even going to try to find scum? That may not be inherently scummy, but it sure ain't pro-town.

[The Kool]

... I really need to get better about making sure I have read the most recent page, and not just the one I had last been on.

[The Kool]

I'm not just out of newbies!

>.> I never went there... never found anything said I had to, just said it was recommended. but I did come from another forum, so I'm not totally new.

Wait, how is he clear?

[The Kool]

@ the kool, what forum did you come from??

910CMX, the Games section, mafia stuff just started up there recently. So I don't have a lot of experience, but I'm not a noob. Also, as different as it may be, I have also started hanging out on some IRC mafia, so that's helping.

What's wrong with liking bandwagons? What's wrong with espeonage town hunting? And my explanation is that the kool seems like a good place to start with. I agree with espy's strategy so far and as far as I'm concerned we're not fully out of RVS yet, sure people are voting based on "reasons" but the majority of those are for a person who I am fairly certain is newbtown.

A few things.
1. Bandwagoning, if you use the world properly, is when someone just votes for someone based on other peoples' reasoning, or for no reason at all except to get a lynch. Having people use their own reasoning is heavily encouraged, which makes bandwagoning inherently slightly scummy, expecially now that some people, at least, are completely and fully out of RVS.
2. Town hunting? Unless I am completely misunderstanding that, you're basically saying 'let's lynch some townies!' Mind explaining the subtleties? Otherwise Esp needs to be lynched right now as a liability to the town. And you next, for thinking nothing wrong of it.
3. A good place to start with. What makes me a better place to start with than the places people have already started? This makes no sense.
4. I have been convinced that Elfin is either newbtown, or clever scum. He has not entirely convinced me he isn't clever, but time will tell. For now,
UNVOTE:

RV: SleepyKrew

unvote

Necessary Evil how are pointing out contradictions making something out of nothing?

vote: Elfen

FoS: Necessary and Kalofer

Clarification: I [was / am still] using the same reasoning.

All of his post, really not saying anything really, any one else think of this?

Yeah, I have seen avoiding notice by not posting much used as a mafia tactic before. Tricky, because idle-voting is something I've also seen in nearly every game I've been in. And people who can't be on as much as others are inherently going to post less, like me. But that isn't just not being on much, that's straight up not saying anything. Looks suspicious to me.

[The Kool]

Okay, that makes more sense. I was confused a bit there.

People keep going back and reading the thread, huh? Man, I might do that, but I don't have the dedication or the time. So, unfortunately, as much as I hate to say it, I often rely on other peoples' evidence and theories, and use those to formulate my own (note that I do not just bw along with their theories).

[The Kool]

Okay, that makes more sense. I was confused a bit there.

People keep going back and reading the thread, huh? Man, I might do that, but I don't have the dedication or the time. So, unfortunately, as much as I hate to say it, I often rely on other peoples' evidence and theories,

and use those to formulate my own (note that I do not just bw along with their theories).

[The Kool]

Okay, ninja'd there. I do make my own theories. I do read the entire thread, but as it happens. I have never yet reread an entire game just to find something new, and note-taking is not my forte. I ought to try to work on this, but when one is rather busy and doesn't have hours of time to devote to scumhunting, one has to rely on the second-best thing.

And keep in mind I am still perfectly capable of analyzing someone else's reasoning, and lynching them. I have done it.

[The Kool]

Sorry, it would be better phrased that I take other peoples' opinions into account when formulating my own. This does not mean that I follow them.

Alright, I'll try rereading. I have other things I need to do today, such as moving to day in the game I'm modding (other forum, haven't been here long enough), but I can scrape up the time.

[The Kool]

That is a situation where posts have been quoted and it makes sense to me, but since I have agreed to reread the thread, I won't vote until I have confirmed that for myself.

[The Kool]

I am saying that given the evidence you provided, I believe you, but I want to look and see if there is any other evidence that you maybe 'overlooked', which would quite certainly say something. There probably isn't, but I want to check to make sure.

[The Kool]

Most definitely, both simultaneously, you have no excuse to ever not be actively looking for scum.

[The Kool]

A wagon, in this sense, being a general agreement to lynch the same person? Everyone may have differeing opinions on who is scummier, but as long as most of us can agree that one person is scum enough to lynch, then we can turn away from our primary targets for a bit and actually lynch someone.

[The Kool]

Blarg! Will review evidence and actually cast a vote tonight, if I have time. If not, it goes high on my list for tomorrow.

[The Kool]

I have an interest! Just no time to do the in-depth analysis everyone else does. I read things as they show, but right now my mind is really busy, and the individual scumhunting threads can be hard to follow when you have thirteen players.

And yes, I'd call it scummy to, just making excuses to sit back and not do anything ever. Which is why I am going to stop. This thread is going to get

read,

doggone it!

Charter, I can agree with you on most of those points, but I really want to hear your full reasoning of why you think I'm scum, so I can respond to it point by point. I want to make it clear that I am town... even if I haven't been doing a very good job of it so far.

[The Kool]

There are a few people I think could be scum, have some things for them and some against, but I'm gonna have to mostly go with cloudocean, for being really quiet in the background.

[The Kool]

When time is had. I am currently multitasking my backside off.

[The Kool]

What I find suspicious about The Kool:
28, the way he asks others about the two votes on Espeonage. It's like he doesn't want to make something of it unless others first give him support.
44, the logic here makes no sense at all.
50, wagons on Elfin, but only well after he first said he wanted to. Why not just vote Elfin in 34?
115, says "You're not even going to try to find scum?" to Elfin, which is hilarious because Kool hasn't tried to find scum.
156, contradiction. Says bandwagoning is scummy (which I disagree with, but isn't the point) but he said he was considering bandwagoning earlier in the game. Bonus because he wagoned Elfin himself and didn't give his own reasoning, which he also says town should do.

Then there's the blanket suspicion of how I feel The Kool is just posting to post, not to find scum. I am pretty sure if anyone goes back and rereads his posts, you will agree.

Line 50) Well, what can I say, How was any of my post remotely confusing, and SK didn't even say it was confusing.
Line115) I have to agree with charter, you havent did much hunting yur self.
Line 156) True, that is a contradiction... but I can't say the same since people spotted some of mine I think.

I shall respond by explaining some of my own reasoning and explanations I at least tried to present earlier.

28. It was early, RVS, and I stated that I knew perfectly well there was no reason for it. Note that I did not, in fact, bandwagon.
44, well I didn't actually explain that one very well. My reasoning was that I do not adding my vote to someone and possibly helping lynch them if I don't yet have reason to believe they are scum. This reasoning has since been shot down as invalid, the way things work here.
50, especially considering the above explanation, I was finally convinced that Elfin was looking scummy enough to vote for. As for the confusing bit, my brain was just hurting from trying to comprehend how intense it gets around here. I think I'm better now.
115. >.> guilty. Totally guilty there. I have not been actively trying to find scum in the way you guys have... until now!
156. Bandwagoning, in the proper sense of the word, IS scummy. Voting for someone who is already being voted for =/= bandwagoning. Also, I said I had the urge to bw. I never actually intended to. s for not giving my reasoning, I have to partly agree with cloudocean in that it seems pointless to restate reasoning that has already been said. However, it is not pointless, thus I will do so. Not that my reasoning seems valid anymore. Hence why I unvoted!

Also, I have just been posting just to post. Guilty again. I've been keeping up with things sorta, and feeling the need to maintain a presence, whether or not I am actively scumhunting.

[The Kool]

Now that defense is out of the way, I am finding Kal scummy right now. Since I suck at note-taking and presenting lists, I'll just try to name a few things I find scummy...

Mostly because of his whimsical voting for me back there for no reason whatsoever. The flimsy non-reason he gave wasn't even a valid one. Also his liking of bandwagons, in the scummy sense. Also his read on Elfen as newbtown, with no evidence to differentiate between that and clever mafia.

Also because I desire for there to be a lynch soon. This is and isn't a bandwagon. I have indeed presented reasoning above, which makes it, at least, less scummy than Kal's bandwagoning. He has presented some redeeming logic, but anyone can be logical, even mafia. I may go read through a few more people, but for now, I'll vote for him.

[The Kool]

D'oh, my bad.
VOTE: Kalofer

[The Kool]

I'm going with the flow because trying to go against it makes my head hurt, calls me out as different, and makes everyone slam me with a barrage of questions, needing reasonings that I can't always put into words, and that makes my head hurt even more.

Wow. I thought I was ready for a small game here, no problem. Turns out everyone I've ever played with before is hopelessly newb compared to everyone here. You guys are downright

aggressive.

And I'm not in a good way as far as defending myself goes. I've had to defend myself a couple times in the past two weeks, and almost every time failed at it and been driven to a lynch. Everyone expects different reactions. It makes my head hurt trying to conform.

And I can anticipate your reaction. 'Conforming? Scum! Lynch him now.' Trust me, it ain't that simple. You have to conform to the expectations of the scumhunters or get lynched as scum, whatever your allegiance is. And in the past week, I've had to deal with four distinctly different expectations. My head hurts.

Still, no excuse not to at least try, right? IIOA, right? Or whatever that acronym was? Fine. I'll make a proper case on someone. I just historically fail at defending myself, whether I'm town or scum.

[The Kool]

Yay, thank you, my head hurts less now.

As for the 'posting just to post', that is precisely what it is. It's saying 'I'm still here, no need to poke me, I just don't have anything new to contribute.' I post so I won't be considered absent.

And for now, off for the rest of the day. Time to give my brain a break, draw some stuff, and come back to tackle this with a fresh mind.

[The Kool]

Alright. You recall me pulling out the newb card, yes? Here's the newb card? There goes the newb card, out the window. Bye! I plan to never need you again.

Before I get on to my reads, I would just like to wave the card I just threw out the window one more time. The way I learned mafia, you didn't really win unless you survived, even as town. This presents an 'every man for himself' mindset, and even townies will aggressively defend themselves when pressed to it. Which, in hindsight, is probably why I fail at defending myself so bad, and have trouble accepting the mindset of taking one for the team. Oh, and Kal? Any sort of response to an accusation is a defense, whatever it consists of. What matters is the method of defense.

Now, on with the point of this post. Aside from not being AWOL. Speaking of, I'll be gone Friday evening through Sunday, so ya know.

I'm getting a scum read on Kal, and have for a while. Somewhat akin to one of my old gut reads, but this one with more substance. The thing that sticks out most starkly is his jump to defend himself with a VT claim when nowhere near a lynch, even I wouldn't have done that. His claim of reasoning in #186 being "I really did not have anything better to do." His assurance that Elfen is newbtown, and yet in the same breath, his willingness to let him get lynched. His following of Espy, who is, as far as I have seen, the only person he is following. His "He looks town to me" read on Espy with no explanation. His insistence that Elf is town, and while maintaining this stance, still willing to turn and vote for him (#215-#220). His apparent belief that we have to lynch people to confirm that they are town, which is kinda pointless to me, not even trying to confirm them other ways.

I would vote Kal, but I am already doing so.

I also used to be pretty sure of Sleepy's reasoning, but now I'm not so sure, and he's feeling scummy. But as I can now hear the birds outside my window, read will be tomorrow.

[The Kool]

You could have just said: "I think he's scum based on everything everyone else said" but even if you had I wouldn't have accepted it this time. I'm not even going to bother to explain how many of the things I've said you've misunderstood completely in an effort to make me look scummier.

Firstly, that's because according to the discussions I've seen so far, just saying 'I believe him' is what do you call it, sheeping? At any rate, at least slightly scummy. And now you're saying that trying to provide reasoning is scummy? Sounds like you're trying to come up with reasons against me.

That said, it was 6am, so I may indeed have misunderstood some things, and if you provide reasonable reasoning that you have already given that I must have missed, I will retract some of those points, but unfortunately the vote is staying on you. I have always been slightly suspicious of you, hence why my vote was on you in the first place, and why I never removed it.

Before I get on to my reads, I would just like to wave the card I just threw out the window one more time.

^you know, this is exactly what I was thinking you were going to do.

I knew you would say that, it was a bit of humor. Or does humor have no place here?

[The Kool]

If other people came up with the same reasons, that's not my fault. Do I need new ones?

If you believe someone is down, DON'T lynch them. Because if you are right, you just lynched a townie, and that is never good for town. You try to prevent townie lynches.

[The Kool]

Well I tried to come up with reasons myself by reading through your posts again. Multiple people can come up with the same reasons, though I did see some of them in use before.

If you're wrong, it should become apparent as time moves on, at least to some people. And if not, that's some darn good mafia that deserves to win. Not that we should just lie down and let them, mind you. But there is no reason WHATSOEVER to desire, or even help, a lynch on someone you think is town. Unless - and here is the sole exception - you are anti-town.

[The Kool]

I'm here! I'm honestly getting just about nothing on my reads anymore. It may be true what has been told to me on IRC, that the longer you draw things out, the more the scum will be able to act town, and the more town will be able to slip up, muddling everything. I suppose that's part of why I like shorter days.

But I will try to find a read tomorrow. As I mentioned earlier, I was gone this weekend, and expected that even if I was back today, I wouldn't have the time to dig through this, and it looks to be so/ I'm just responding to a poke. I'll be back into this tomorrow.

[The Kool]

I do find him mildly suspicious, but I wasn't finding Quinn suspicious. Though maybe that was because I was being hopelessly naive. I'll go back and read through him tonight.

[The Kool]

The Kool- mostly made from my other heads convincing. I know find him scummy after an iso/ re-read of him. reasons: No scum hunting at all. No effort put into finding scum. Bad reactions to votes. Scum motivation for posts. And lack of a definitive position (always going with the flow/ never makes up his onw mind)

Yes, I got a very bad start to this game. I'm actually starting to enjoy it now that I'm getting into the pace of things here, though.

And now, my promised Quinn/Ear read.

I was gonna say Quinn/Ear looked town to me, until I found this blatant contradiction. From there it just went downhill.

Right now, it takes 7 to lynch. I'd worry if you were putting on the 4th or 5th. Nobody is going to poop their pants over a random vote, and if it started a bandwagon, you could still remove yourself. I always just assumed RVS was a part of the game, it gets things started.

I don't believe there are yet, but I do believe that real discussion has started. Do I disagree with the pressure against elfen? No, I think he has some explaining to do.

I just don't want to misplace my vote right now.

Apologies if that seems like I'm trying to get everyone else to unvote. I'm really interested in this elfen/sleepykrew argument, especially with Necessary Evil's quick interjections. I understand trying to stir the pot, but he could be more specific.

In the second post, he was doing the EXACT SAME THING he was getting on my case about with the first.

However, where I differ is that I believe Elfen to be unreadable at this point. If he had more experience and was playing this way, I'd call him scum right off, but right now he seems desperate. It's really hard to get a read on a desperate person, as they're grasping for straws in the same way scum without valid reasoning do. We've backed him into a corner and seen that he caves a bit under pressure. Good, now we know, let's move on.

It seems he was one of the ones to really advocate the backing off of Elfen, though oddly enough this was AFTER people had already backed off, and he didn't even say he was town. All he said was "He's desperate, okay, move on," as if mafia aren't far more likely to get desperate than townies. And then people moved on, and have forever since called Elfen town, mostly based on variations of that reasoning right there. Of course, this could mean he's right, but I get a bad vibe from it, so I'm including it.

Oh I have my own town reads right now. I think Sleepykrew is town, based on the fact that he's been on the same train of thought I have. What I don't agree with is townhunting as an alternative to scumhunting. We need to be doing both, all the time.

That's a BS reason to think someone is town. Anybody can come up with the same reasons that people have already said, especially mafia. Thinking he is town because you agree with his reasoning is total BS, and makes you look scummy alongside him.

He has also gotten REALLY snarky at times, especially #247. This doesn't in itself mean he's mafia, but it's not helpful to the town. While getting rid of him because he isn't going to be helpful isn't valid anymore, because he was rep[laced, it still indicates that he didn't have a very pro-town mindset, which indicates that he didn't have a pro-town role.

#284, he instantly comes out trying to ingratiate himself with me with assurances that he's on my side, FAR more than he had ever done with anyone previously, or in fact than anyone else had done. He then tried to use this... lemme quote again.

Okay, The Kool. Here's what it comes down to. I was asked why I find you so pro-town, so I went back and read your ISO. You're playing really scummy, and I honestly can't blame people for finding you suspicious. However, I don't want to waste today's lynch on someone I believe so strongly to be pro-town. I want you to claim. I suspect that you've been breadcrumbing, and that's the only reason I have for finding you pro-town. If you're a PR, claim now so we don't lose a townie today and another tonight.

Everything about this post is all wrong. He says he find me town, but that he can't find any reason for it, and I look totally scummy, but he still believes beyond a doubt that I am town. He then tries to get my role, especially if I have a PR, for BOGUS reasoning! According to his earlier statements about bandwagons, he has no need to be concerned that I'm going to get lynched, and having me claim a power role, if I am one, only assures that the mafia will be able to kill a power role tonight, instead of having to guess.

He then comes back, when called on this post, to say he can't defend himself, and he isn't even going to try, and plays the stupid card. He says his actions were inexcusable. He then says that he is willing to die for this mistake. That is something townies sometimes are, but in my experience, only the stupid or the mafia ever say, as a last resort to make people think they really are town. Either case, if they really are willing to die, we might as well oblige them.

When asked for a read, he comes back with less than half a dozen posts of reference (#335).

We then get no further read on him, because he seeks a replacement, and Ear refuses to vouch for him. Ear plays better town, but he's asking us to ignore Quinn and all his mistakes and slip-ups, in the hope that he can do things better.

Honestly, this is a far stronger read than I ever had on Kalofer, but that doesn't mean I suspect Kal any less. If we start voting for Ear, I'll vote for him too at first opportunity, but right now my vote is on Kal with the rest of the majority. Better him then me, right?

[The Kool]

My apologies, it seems the majority is already shifted to Earworm.
VOTE: Earworm

[The Kool]

What the heck, Panzer? That is the most blatantly scummy thing I've ever heard to date! Unless you have some serious reasoning to back that up... I have to agree with Ear on that one. Seriously, can anyone explain why there my ever be any reason to selfhammer aside from Mafia giving up? Asking someone to do so is utterly pointless in either case.

[The Kool]

Dude, the line RIGHT after the one you bolded. Starts with "Unless..." And note my vote remains on Ear. Why would I be trying to derail the Ear lynch? I was trying to find out WHY he did something that seems so stupidly scummy to me, not trying to lynch him for it.

Also, most 'blatantly' scummy. Blatantly scummy is often not actually scum. And one blatantly scum post is less scummy than a dozen suspicious posts any day.

[The Kool]

Dude, the line RIGHT after the one you bolded. Starts with "Unless..." And note my vote remains on Ear. Why would I be trying to derail the Ear lynch? I was trying to find out WHY he did something that seems so stupidly scummy to me, not trying to lynch him for it.

Also, most 'blatantly' scummy. Blatantly scummy is often not actually scum. And one blatantly scum post is less scummy than a dozen suspicious posts any day.

This post makes no sense to me at all. Blatantly scummy is not from scum. One Blatantly scummy is less scummy than lots of suspicious stuff? What?

I also agree that while it was stupid of panzer to call for a self-hammer of earworm, we shouldn't lynch him for it.

To put it simply, scum usually guard themselves better than to do something so blatantly stupid that it just screams "I'M SCUM!". I am much more inclined to suspect someone who is consistently scummy on a more 'small slip-up' level.

[The Kool]

That's WIFOM, and while I don't have much against WIFOM (depending on the type of WIFOM) you're being a hypocrite here because I've been acting blatantly scummy yet you think I'm scum.

The difference lies between 'one scummy moment' and 'consistently scummy'. Panzer is shifting to the latter the more he talks, IMO.

I like simple WIFOM, but if you start taking it too far or ridiculously in any other manner, it is a hindrance to the town, by obfuscating their reads. On the other hand, my sadistic side thoroughly enjoys a good WIFOM, especially when I'm scum.

[The Kool]

Honestly, so long as we already have a plurality on Ear, we could sit here and keep talking until the time limit. Ear will still get lynched, even without the hammer, and we will get seven more days of discussion in. *rereads the rules to be sure* No, my bad, deadline result in a no-lynch here. But we can still wait until the last day.

If Panzer isn't mafia, he is most likely a PR, IMO, because he seems to be wishing to rely on nights for his information, instead of daytime discussion, like any VT.

[The Kool]

Because it makes sense? Someone who is used to power roles and the relying thereon, will rely on gathering info from night cycles, not discussion time and scumhinting. He is pushing to move to night quickly, rather than sitting around and talking.

[The Kool]

D'oh. *headdesk*

Though I did kinda say that he's probly either PR or Mafia. So we either want to lynch him or keep him alive. Gee... that's helpful.

[The Kool]

Yeah, that was an el stupido. Here I am, trying to analyze, and I forget when to keep my yap shut.

[The Kool]

Can someone explain to me how directing power roles is scummy? They don't have to listen if they don't want to.

inb4 "LOL WOW ITS SO OBVIOUS WHY DONT U GET IT"

Directing power roles is something Mafia can easily do in order to protect their fellow mafia from vigkills, or to direct cops away from them, all while trying to seem like town. It is not a very good idea to accept direction from anyone you don't know is town, if you are a PR.

In other news, CooLskins is presenting some solid logic, in addition to previously presented logic, to which I have nothing to add, other than that my poorly put together read on Kalofer still stands, thanks to my gut. The interaction between SK and Kal could be some serious distancing, but I doubt it. If SK flips scum as I suspect, then I'll believe Kal isn't mafia, at about an 8 on the aforementioned scale. Doesn't mean he couldn't be serial killer, but I don't believe he is working with SK.

On another note, it would be deliciously ironic if SleepyKrew were a Serial Killer.

VOTE: SleepyKrew

That said, why are you so firm on Panzer, Esp? I haven't heard any explanation from you this day other than "Dudes, Panzer is our lynch this round, duh! Day is done, let's move on to the next day." As CooLskins said yesterday:

Brilliant, we have

tomorrow's lynch

. Panzer,

i don't care if you're town or not

(If Earworm is you probably aren't) that was out of order. You ask for a claim instead. And you are only allowed to do that if they are at L-1 and you aren't on the wagon already.

@espy, So you would lynch him even if you got a (theoretical) cop innocent on him? You are blindly lynching people without anilzing their posts to try to gain town credit.

And what's even more, I have looked, and not seen one post of yours after this that explained your dead-set attitude to lynching him. Closest it came was so:

Unvote, vote: Panzer

Reread what you have read in the last page and make a nice little case on why you aren't scum and if I like I won't try and derail Ear's wagon.

Now, do us all a favor and actually explain your case, if you even have one?

FoS: Espeonage

Also, hiplop, as much as I hate to suspect you for voting for the same guy as me, that sounds a heluva lot like sheeping. Which makes me reconsider SK, unfortunately, but please, do explain. And don't just explain, demand explanation from SK while you're at it. Everyone else certainly has, and he has told them enough times that he's not the vig. And if you DON'T think he's the vig, then why are you voting for him? This would mean he was being framed, yes?

[The Kool]

Espy, are you going to respond to my post?

[The Kool]

Hey, if the guy's got good solid reasoning, there's not a whole lot more you can add. So I added my vote and turned my attention elsewhere. Namely, Espy. And once again, Espy, I have not been able to find any explanation of why you voted Panzer, merely you saying you had a case. Please, explain what this case is, so we can move on.

[The Kool]

Again.

Brilliant, we have

tomorrow's lynch

. Panzer,

i don't care if you're town or not

(If Earworm is you probably aren't) that was out of order. You ask for a claim instead. And you are only allowed to do that if they are at L-1 and you aren't on the wagon already.

You don't care if you're lynching town? That's lack of town motivation right there. Town never wants to lynch town. Might sometimes be resigned to it as second-best, but never wants to. And here you are deciding there is no other choice, even if he is town, he is getting lynched today, like you're not even going to try to find scum.

@SK: And it sounds to me like SK is trying to get lynched by whining and annoying everyone. To paraphrase, "The guy who first voted for me posted a wall, and everyone else is a sheep."

Point to my stupid votes? Point to my non-definitive reads? I had 4 suspects, with a supposed 3 man scumteam. 4 is too much?

I was under attack for supposedly OMGUSing him. So I explained that he'd been after me for a while, but I didn't vote him because I thought Kal was scummier. The Kal wagon failed, I moved to my #2 read. I've been saying that slot is scum for quiet a while, no OMGUS. Unfortunately, I was wrong.   

Enlighten me please. I don't see what's wrong with it, and would love an explanation. And I asked for you to be docced because you are the most protown.

At this point, there are ten people alive, so yes, 4 comes to about half.

That is valid, I suppose.

And lastly, you have been enlightened, #650 & #651. Directing power roles is not a blatant scumtell, but it is scummy.

Your arguments and other circumstances have caused me to doubt my suspicions. UNVOTE: Sleepy while I review both sides of the argument, then I will come back with my decision.


Something just clicked in my mind, Sleepy/Espy scumteam. I will have to research this now and provide reasoning, but it is too

late

early right now, so it will be tomorrow.

[The Kool]

I had started writing up a case for Sleepy, but with this exchange, I'll let CooL come back and grill you on your epic failure of an answer. I find issues with 2, 5, and 5a, though I may have missed some that CooL will no doubt find.

On the flipside of this, CooL, you keep missing his point. His point (or one of them, as I see it) is that he wasn't OMGUSing because he had already been suspicious of charter before the vote. Whether this makes a difference or not to you, I don't know, but you seem to be blind to the point.

And finally, everyone, please ISO Espeonage. Note his lack of a solid explanation for anything EVER, despite his multiple scumteam reads and multiple bandwagons. Espy is currently my #1 read, but my vote remains on Sleepy because I don't think him any less scum (this latest exchange has only strengthened my read) and because we already have a bandwagon going. Scumteam or no, either one could easily be an SK.

VOTE: SleepyKrew

[The Kool]

Often, but not always. Sometimes the scum are the ones leading the bandwagon, in which case you need to check to see what bandwagons were current when they voted, because they were probably drawing suspicion off of a fellow mafia.

Now, with that clarification out of the way, I'm going to

unvote: Sleepy

. If Hiplop's role is what I think it is, and if he's telling the truth, then SK is town.

Whatever you're seeing, I'm not. I have to think about this now, with power roles are being claimed, to figure out who might be what. This is looking like a lot of information roles, but we've had two people claim to know SK is innocent, so while hiplop/Sleepy/Espe could be a very bold scumteam, I find it unlikely. UNVOTE: SleepyKrew Of course, this leaves us with many fewer possible scum, so by process of elimination, we should know in very little time whether those three are innocent or not.

[The Kool]

Seriously, enough damage has already been done knowing he's a power role, we don't want it outed if he has more useful abilities.

Too late to string thoughts together right now, but I am still going to hunt down that potential hiplop/Sleepy/Espy scumteam tomorrow. In the meantime...

V/LA June 12-18 for summer camp.

Sorry if I should have let you know sooner, these things have a way of sneaking up on you, and I honestly expected the game to be over before then (back before I had played one here). Still, this is quite absolute, as I will not be able to post during that time at all.

[The Kool]

Not thinking about what you do is never a good thing(unless you're mafia and it helps us catch you), but not thinking about a vote is a very bad thing. You should have good reasons for every vote you cast(except for RVS, but I think its safe to say we're past that).

@my 55: Nah, that's just my horrible, horrible habit of pointing out things people don't seem to be seeing, even when making such things aware to the public isn't always the best move. I was making a point, but you're all going to believe what you like to, so I won't rant about why.

I'm awake now, but I got stuff to do. I'll work in that promised hunting as soon as I can.

[The Kool]

Man, I hate not being able to devote hours to reading the thread and making solid cases. I know I would do so much better if I did.

As it stands, my scummiest reads are currently Espeonage, Kalofer, Cloudocean.

Espeonage: Keeps saying he has proof and evidence for things that he doesn't, says people are confirmed and admits that it is because of a gut read, and continuously fails to post a real explanation for things when asked. I don't care for his claim, it's on his word only, its not evidence. Scum read.

Kalofer: In addition to previous reasons, his reasoning seems to be 'When in doubt, follow Espeonage!' Since Esp is my top scum read, this makes Kal fall right in with him. Scum read.

Cloudocean: Total lurker, and in my experience, that is a strong scumtell. Maybe not mafia, could be SK.

SleepyKrew: Starting to think he may be town, he gets a null read from me now. I really don't know what to make of him, so I'll have to try harder. UNVOTE: SleepyKrew

Hiplop: Dude could easily be lying, and has some explaining to do, but he has claimed a power role, so we leave him alone for now. Leaning both ways simultaneously, so null read.

Elfen: Newb, leaning town.

CooLskins: The most pro-town player here, from all evidence. Strong town read.

I have to go now, but the rest of my reads will come tonight.

[The Kool]

Blarg, I totally contradicted myself there. That will teach me to post without rereading my post.

I am also disinclined to believe hiplop's role, actually, for the same reasons as Espy's, and consider him likely scumteam with Espy and Kal.

[The Kool]

D'oh, honest mistake, I thought I had revoted you again.

On the Espe lynch, did you not notice I did not actually vote him? No, we are not going to lynch a claimed PR today. That waits for tomorrow, when we have more proof, and can tell one way or the other.

Cloud has my vote, because Kal's scumminess relies quite a bit on Espe's scumminess the way I read it. We're much better off getting rid of the luker/possible SK, as Elf put it.

VOTE: cloudocean

[The Kool]

Also, on PR claims: Doubt both are lying because they would have been counter-claimed by now? Likely. But then, it could also be a well-coordinated scumteam trying to strong-arm their way into the town's trust. No way to know yet.

Also also, I don't have time to finish reads now, as I have to go. Finishing reads will be done properly, not hastily.

[The Kool]

Man, I hate not being able to devote hours to reading the thread and making solid cases. I know I would do so much better if I did.

As it stands, my scummiest reads are currently Espeonage, Kalofer, Cloudocean.

Espeonage: Keeps saying he has proof and evidence for things that he doesn't, says people are confirmed and admits that it is because of a gut read, and continuously fails to post a real explanation for things when asked. I don't care for his claim, it's on his word only, its not evidence. Scum read.

Kalofer: In addition to previous reasons, his reasoning seems to be 'When in doubt, follow Espeonage!' Since Esp is my top scum read, this makes Kal fall right in with him. Scum read.

Cloudocean: Total lurker, and in my experience, that is a strong scumtell. Maybe not mafia, could be SK.

SleepyKrew: Starting to think he may be town, he gets a null read from me now. I really don't know what to make of him, so I'll have to try harder. UNVOTE: SleepyKrew

Hiplop: Dude could easily be lying, and has some explaining to do, but he has claimed a power role, so we leave him alone for now. Leaning both ways simultaneously, so null read.

Elfen: Newb, leaning town.

CooLskins: The most pro-town player here, from all evidence. Strong town read.

I have to go now, but the rest of my reads will come tonight.

Alright, picking up where I left off. I guess there were only two left, but I didn't have time to realize that earlier. And that 'hour later' post was me getting back on for about two minutes between dinner and leaving.

Panzerjager: He seems to deal in absolutes around here. He was real strong in going after Quinn/Ear, and tried to get him to hammer himself. This alone isn't enough for a scum read, so I'm thinking Null read, but lynching him is either a good idea or a bad idea, no middle ground in his case. However, lately he has been jumping around quite a bit, and can't stick to a single vote... Null read, leaning scum pretty heavily.

LordChronos: Also lurking, but with sensible reasons that were not excuses after the fact. He also actually puts forth an opinion and there is substance in what posts he has made, unlike our other lurker. However(and this is a bit of meta), his record shows that he is pretty good as scum, so I'm inclined to keep a closer eye on him. Null read, leaning town.

[The Kool]

Yes, it's weak. *hangs head in shame*

I'm just not particularly good at making strong cases. Honestly, you want the family 'lawyer', you want my brother. Doesn't keep me from trying, though, as seen above.

I can't shake my feeling that Espe is scum though, so I guess that brings me to my gut reads(which comprise half my overall reads as well). Gut reads on Espe, Kal, SK, and hip, and only those four. I will beat myself upside the head if I trust me fallible logic, and my gut turns out to be right instead.

[The Kool]

Unlikely, but not impossible, and my gut has a history of being eerily accurate. I tend to trust it, even if I don't blindly follow it.

It is indeed on Cloud, and I gave a reason. Rereading that reason and considering what I know, it appears to have several exceptions, but I would really rather not be wishy-washy about my votes. Pick someone and stick to it, yes? My vote may change if needed for a hammer on someone I think is scum, but until then, I would like Cloud to step forth and actually post some meaningful content. Reads might be a good place to start.

[The Kool]

That is, as you say, a paraphrase. Paraphrasings can be twisted to sound any way you like. I listen to my gut, as seen by my reads, yes? I just don't blindly follow it. I do so sensibly.

[The Kool]

Contradictions? Please, do point out where I have contradicted myself, aside from the ones I myself pointed out and corrected. You're not helping your case by not providing a case, and certainly not helping by voting for the guy who started on you.

[The Kool]

Anything can be fabricated, given time and coordination. Hence why I am suspicious of a hip/Espe/SK scumteam. I still think Cloud is very likely Serial Killer, actually.

[The Kool]

You know he didn't because you did, that's how you could clear him.

[The Kool]

Well to answer your question. No, I am against it. I hate the idea of lynching some one(if the RVS is still on) and it always end up town and the person always seems town but other people some how think they are suspicious, I always think they are town. But some reason they think the person is scum :/ That is why, on most of the games, I don't vote on the first day, it is way easer to find scum on the second day, looking back on what people have said and all. That is my style, waiting for information to pass by then go at it, not try to strive for it when I know I won't able to get it. I dont give a flying shit if other people vote for other people, that is fine by me, it gives me a chance to see why and what was the consequences in the action they had. I just don't want people to say that I am scum cause I don't vote and all. But for some reason they do.

Does that answer some of it?? If not Tell my what else I need to explain further

So you're willing to just sit back and let a townie get lynched on day 1? You're not even going to try to find scum?

That may not be inherently scummy

, but it sure ain't pro-town.

This just got my attention right off the bat. Getting townies lynched is the essence of playing scum. Could this be a "theory point" to justify later actions? Probably not, but I still find it interesting that Kool doesn't think lynching townies is scummy.

Trying to lynch town is def scum, lying back and letting them get lynched is not necessarily def scum, but is def anti-town.

A wagon, in this sense, being a general agreement to lynch the same person? Everyone may have differeing opinions on who is scummier, but as long as most of us can agree that one person is scum enough to lynch, then

we can turn away from our primary targets

for a bit and actually lynch someone.

Something is wrong with this, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe its the part where he says "we can turn away from our primary targets and lynch town"... No town motivation for that post, appeal for a

nonspecific

lynch as well.

Dude, l2r. You seem to have very selective vision when it comes to my posts. Is that what I said? Not by far! Everyone should have multiple people they think are scum, and are trying to lynch. If not enough people agree on who is most scummy, than some can switch to their #2 read or #3 read in order to get a majority on someone that is "scum enough to lynch". NOWHERE do I say anything about lynching town.

[@kool]Who do you think is scum. Lay one name down.

There are a few people I think could be scum, have some things for them and some against, but I'm gonna have to mostly go with cloudocean, for being really quiet in the background.

This show a hesitence in kool to implicate anybody. Even though he does throw down a name, he still isn't completely sold on anybody. He has gone back and forth and never really had a stance on anyone person.

Now that defense is out of the way, I am finding Kal scummy right now. Since I suck at note-taking and presenting lists, I'll just try to name a few things I find scummy...

Mostly because of his whimsical voting for me back there for no reason whatsoever. The flimsy non-reason he gave wasn't even a valid one. Also his liking of bandwagons, in the scummy sense. Also his read on Elfen as newbtown, with no evidence to differentiate between that and clever mafia.

Also because I desire for there to be a lynch soon.

This is and isn't a bandwagon. I have indeed presented reasoning above, which makes it, at least, less scummy than Kal's bandwagoning. He has presented some redeeming logic, but anyone can be logical, even mafia. I may go read through a few more people, but for now, I'll vote for him.

We have sooo much time to make up our minds. Why should we lynch soon when we can wait a bit to make a better read? You aren't suggesting that we quick lynch day 1 are you? And why is lynching now better for the town then lynching later?

Right now I'm fully convinced that kool should be today's lynch. He also never seemed to defend (at least to my satisfaction) his sheeping and going with the flow.

In other news, I need to really arse my hydra partner to post more.

not to quote myself but I still have the exact same reactions to that kool post...

Yay, thank you, my head hurts less now.

As for the 'posting just to post', that is precisely what it is. It's saying 'I'm still here, no need to poke me, I just don't have anything new to contribute.' I post so I won't be considered absent.

And for now, off for the rest of the day. Time to give my brain a break, draw some stuff, and come back to tackle this with a fresh mind.

I'm horrified that I missed this before. This is just friggin' silly. So yah, you don't want to post content, we get that already. there is literly no town motivation for the above post period.

And these I shall let you get to my explanations of before replying, because I've already answered these points(IIRC).

And I had some points to bring up on cloud... but then I dealt with cub scouts all afternoon and they ran it out of my mind. >.<

[The Kool]

I have given some responses to some points you raised about my early posts, namely "that's how I played until now." I know this is a lame excuse, but if you like, I can provide you with a link to my previous games, so you can meta me and see for yourself if I tell the truth. It won't be nearly as much reading as games here. I also know this is rather belated, but if it helps prove my innocence, I implore you. (Yay for obscure words!)

If other people came up with the same reasons, that's not my fault. Do I need new ones?

If you believe someone is down, DON'T lynch them. Because if you are right, you just lynched a townie, and that is never good for town. You try to prevent townie lynches.

An inability to make up new reasons show that you are content to lynch whoever is the largest wagon. It simply shows a lack of scumhunting and it is very anti-town. You can agree with other people reasons, but you need to have your own reasons as well, or atleast prove the other people's reasons to yourself.

Now we have the kool/kal back and forth. I'm tempted to agree with bub on this one,

OK, I've finished reading. I can't defend Quinnster's actions, so I won't. They were terrible and nothing I can say can make them look better.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kool
He's my number one choice for scum right now.

Reasons:
I really,

really

don't like Post #50. It reads like a maf that's trying to stay low and appease the town at large, while also being opportunistic. Also, the fact that he posts 3 times in between this post and the post of Elfen's in question is highly suspicious.

He has consistently provided no information to the town about his reads. At least people like Espeonage are townhunting. Kool is doing no scum or townhunting. Sure he might say he is but if you look at the very few reads he has, he's just regurgitating other people's ideas completely. Example: Post 274 is pretty much the same as Supreme Overlord's Post #201. Basically he's done a lot of nothing the whole game.

An interesting read from a confirmed town player. In fact I noticed the exact same thing about kool, he doesn't do much except be on the lynch wagon.

On the first point, that discussion was about the points I dug up, which happened to be the same as the ones already given. I did validate them for myself by that very fact, so your point is, once again, moot.

On both of them, that may be true, but even if its not a coincidence, it doesn't mean I'm scum, just that I agreed. And I highly doubt you can call my CO vote bandwagoning by any stretch of the imagination.

[The Kool]

Wait, visited? I thought you said you were a jailkeeper?

[The Kool]

Panzer vs hip, I see. And I've already been suspicious of hip's claim.

I meant to work on a post last night, but I got kicked off. However, I did get to do some reviewing of the both of them and why I thought they were guilty. I don't have the time to recreate my case now, and my laziness kicks in at the prospect of doing the same work twice, so I'll just vote.

VOTE: hiplop I would FoS for now until I see more evidence, because I hate to be wrong and give the mafia that extra town vote they need to win, but I leave tomorrow. PLEASE, everyone else be careful with your votes!

Personally, I don't like massclaims, especially on a forum. The mafia have plenty of time to work up a good fake claim, especially if they wait until everyone else has claimed, and nobody trusts a VT claim anyway, which makes people more likely to lynch townies... And besides, I can't see how your 'we should claim' logic makes any sense. Do explain.

[The Kool]

Hip, I happen to believe Panzer more than I believe you. Even if he is mafia (which I dearly hope not, with my vote placed as it is), does that mean I am too? No. However, I might have enough time on tonight to reconsider the evidence. I'm hoping I will before I leave.

Luckily, I happen to have a few minutes on right now. Unluckily, my claim is one of the most suspicious possible, so as much as I wince to say it, I'm a VT.

Next up, Chronos! I don't like lurkers, too little to go off of.

[The Kool]

Sleepy unvoted.

I shall now take what time I can to look back and figure out if this is gullible gut feeling voting, or reliable memory. Or unreliable memory, more likely.

[The Kool]

And I am curious as to why you think our declared 'most pro-town player' is scum. Do tell. I myself think he is quite possibly the most pro-town player here, though he dropped off the list of 'definitely town' after repeated selective blindness on my posts.

[The Kool]

Awesome. I get back to a win. I absolutely loved playing with you, CoolDudes. Panzer, I apologize, you were being smarter there then I realized you were. Awesome.

I learned a lot from this, and feel I may just last in a game where I don't have buddies watching my back and manipulating things for my benefit. You guys are brutal.

And thanks for cutting me some newb slack :3

[The Kool]

Awesome. I get back to a win. I absolutely loved playing with you, CoolDudes. Panzer, I apologize, you were being smarter there then I realized you were. Awesome.

I learned a lot from this, and feel I may just last in a game where I don't have buddies watching my back and manipulating things for my benefit. You guys are brutal.

And thanks for cutting me some newb slack :3

[The Kool]

And lastly forget that you are scum. If you take any of this advice make it be that last sentence.

Yeah, I made sure to do that the instant after I bookmarked the QT. I think it was the only thing keeping me from getting lynched.

But yeah, one tip from me: Don't snipe at half a post while disregarding the rest of it. You did that several times to me, and dropped of my 'definitely town' list to merely 'most town player'.