Mini 1170: Nowhereville Mafia '11- Over!

[CooLskins]

/confirmify

1. Both are fun, but being Mafia can be stressfull because you have to fabricate a bunch of opinions.
2. I try to post twice a day, but I don't always make that goal. However, this head of the Hydra (Bub Bidderskins) may not post as much as the other head, because I'm in more games right now.
3. Central Time, GMT +6 I believe
4. I don't think they really exist. Even if it's a "gut read" there's still some backing behind it beyond just your gut. If there isn't any backing, then it isn't a gut read: it's a stupid read.
5. Oh God, I hate walls. Sometimes I do wall though, but that's only when I have to respond to walls.

[CooLskins]

This game is going to be fun because it's the first game I've ever played as a hydra.

Pro-tip: you can tell me from CooLDoG because I spell better.

[CooLskins]

I like your avatar, is that hitman underneath the doom marine?

It's actually a combination of my avatar (Irving Lambert from the Splinter Cell games) and CooLDoG's avvie (the DOOM marine).

Well. I really don't like the RVS stage much, so Imma lay low till things start to pick up and all, past RVS

Vote: Elfen

Just because you don't like RVS doesn't mean you can't contribute to the discussion. Giving a random.org vote and then saying your going to lay low reads as ducking responsibility.

[CooLskins]

CooLDoG here. But that should be evident by my apparent lack of spelling skills.

First off, we have to correct a spelling mistake by my other head, DOOM (video game) is actually spelled DooM.

I'm not gonna throw around random votes, but rather random suspicions, until I find something that is even remotely possible to base a vote off of.

^this defeats the reason for rvs. Throwing suspicions around at random holds no weight at all. Whilst a vote does. That is why its RVS not RSS (which is something else entirely).

[CooLskins]

First of all, since we're out of RVS, UNVOTE:

Secondly, elfen, I personally don't care whether you like RVS or not. You placed one then walked away and said you didn't believe in it. If you don't believe in it, why did you place one in the first place. You don't have to explain a random vote, it's random, but you still seem to be trying to dodge any criticism you may garner from it.

Okay you say we are out of rvs, that implies you have a valid suspect, if you had a valid suspect you would have voted. I don't see a vote in this post. Are we out of RVS or not?

Well, like I said, it wasw mostly the band wagoning I hated it about it >_> thats when I hate it >_> cause it goes out of hand and there is really no suspicion, but here is different. But I have been forcing my self to change my ways D: even though a part of me hates it

Assuming 3 scums (as is normal for mini's these days) they can get the 3/7 it takes to lynch, that means you need 4 townies to "get out of control" in order to lynch. But, you also have to get a bandwagon on guy to l-1 without people noticing, which is a very very difficult. I just don't see (and have never seen) how an rvs wagon could go to a lynch or get out of control.

Well one, I did use Random.org ._.

Why do you have to justify your vote? And why are RVS bandwagons bad. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the reason for RVS? I know this most likely belongs in theory discussion but I want to know why you are anti-rvs. Tip: "I'm anti-rvs" is not a valid reason .

[CooLskins]

I was taking my cue from SleepyKrew's assertion that we were out of RVS. Things were starting to happen, and I don't like holding a vote I don't believe in once the game gets going.

What is RVS then? When does it end?

When a scum gets randomly bandwagon and says, "Haya, guys we are out of rvs now, that means you guys gotta un-vote me like quinnster does.". When you say you are out of rvs that means that their are legitimate suspects worth a vote. Are there?

[CooLskins]

Well, like I said, it wasw mostly the band wagoning I hated it about it >_> thats when I hate it >_> cause it goes out of hand and there is really no suspicion, but here is different. But I have been forcing my self to change my ways D: even though a part of me hates it

Assuming 3 scums (as is normal for mini's these days) they can get the 3/7 it takes to lynch, that means you need 4 townies to "get out of control" in order to lynch. But, you also have to get a bandwagon on guy to l-1 without people noticing, which is a very very difficult. I just don't see (and have never seen) how an rvs wagon could go to a lynch or get out of control.

Well one, I did use Random.org ._.

Why do you have to justify your vote? And why are RVS bandwagons bad. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the reason for RVS? I know this most likely belongs in theory discussion but I want to know why you are anti-rvs. Tip: "I'm anti-rvs" is not a valid reason .

Well, like i said, I am trying to to change my ways, which I know are bad ways, but some things don't die easly >_> and the reason I justified my answer was cause of this

Elfen, if you're anti-bw from RVS, then why'd you vote the same as my RVS? Stop contradicting yourself

But the reason I really don't like RVS casue it leads to a huge fight, and blah blah, it also is usually*when I play) a senseless bw. But Since this place is different, I am trying to convey my thoughts some :/ and when i played it was like a 4/20 ratio of scum to town. Its just a pingto me when there is only a week to discuss and some things don't go past it and people vote for you cause of something stupid >_>. but meh

Unvote

[CooLskins]

Okay, that was weird. I meant to post something other than just Elfen's quote. Silly internet...

@Elfen: The reason we're voting for you is not because you are against the RVS, it's because you are using the fact that you are against the RVS to dodge responsibility. Just because you don't like the RVS doesn't mean you can't contribute to the discussion.

Yes, well there were already 3 votes on him, which would make mine vote 4. Since it does take 7 to lynch, however, we probably won't be lynching until someone slips up big time, and everyone jumps at them.

But I have to agree with Sleepy here. That post just confused me, and I have now worked out that it was confusing for a reason. So that means I'm gonna

VOTE: Elfen

Why didn't you vote for Elfen before? He made the "confusing post" before Sleepy pointed it out. Why did you shamelessly sheep Sleepy's reasons and jump on the biggest bandwagon?

unvote; vote: The Kool

[CooLskins]

I semi don't agree with my other heads vote, but we can go with it. For the record,

fos: elfin

.

Well, like I said, it wasw mostly the band wagoning I hated it about it >_> thats when I hate it >_> cause it goes out of hand and there is really no suspicion, but here is different. But I have been forcing my self to change my ways D: even though a part of me hates it

Assuming 3 scums (as is normal for mini's these days) they can get the 3/7 it takes to lynch, that means you need 4 townies to "get out of control" in order to lynch. But, you also have to get a bandwagon on guy to l-1 without people noticing, which is a very very difficult. I just don't see (and have never seen) how an rvs wagon could go to a lynch or get out of control.

Well one, I did use Random.org ._.

Why do you have to justify your vote? And why are RVS bandwagons bad. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the reason for RVS? I know this most likely belongs in theory discussion but I want to know why you are anti-rvs. Tip: "I'm anti-rvs" is not a valid reason .

Well, like i said, I am trying to to change my ways, which I know are bad ways, but some things don't die easly >_> and the reason I justified my answer was cause of this

Elfen, if you're anti-bw from RVS, then why'd you vote the same as my RVS? Stop contradicting yourself

But the reason I really don't like RVS casue it leads to a huge fight, and blah blah, it also is usually*when I play) a senseless bw. But Since this place is different, I am trying to convey my thoughts some :/ and when i played it was like a 4/20 ratio of scum to town. Its just a pingto me when there is only a week to discuss and some things don't go past it and people vote for you cause of something stupid >_>. but meh

Unvote

Why are huge fights bad? And why is a senseless bandwagon bad? A "senseless" bandwagon can lead to much information depending on how and who supports it. In fact all rvs bandwagons are senseless, but isn't that the idea? I would be more inclined to believe that your reasons are/were legitimate if you came out and said, "Look guys, Its rvs and the whole reason for rvs is to get a bandwagon going so we can get information, vote: largest wagon". But no, you have to seemingly hide your vote off of random.com (which was

not

mentioned in your orginal post). So my question is:
Do you or do you not support the idea of an rvs? And why. I don't care if your answer is scummy as hell, all I want is your real answer, not hiding behind random.com and "past games". Put simply if I was by myself I would vote for you right here and now, but I have to deal with someone else, and I respect his vote.

[CooLskins]

Esp, reasoning?

Of course I have reasoning.

The implied question is "what are your reasons?" which I too want to know.

Well to answer your question. No, I am against it. I hate the idea of lynching some one(if the RVS is still on) and it always end up town and the person always seems town but other people some how think they are suspicious, I always think they are town. But some reason they think the person is scum :/ That is why, on most of the games, I don't vote on the first day, it is way easer to find scum on the second day, looking back on what people have said and all. That is my style, waiting for information to pass by then go at it, not try to strive for it when I know I won't able to get it. I dont give a flying shit if other people vote for other people, that is fine by me, it gives me a chance to see why and what was the consequences in the action they had. I just don't want people to say that I am scum cause I don't vote and all. But for some reason they do.

Does that answer some of it?? If not Tell my what else I need to explain further

Okay where to start with this, lets break this down.

Well to answer your question. No, I am against it.

Great, no problems what so ever. But after this it falls through with this:

I hate the idea of lynching some one(if the RVS is still on) and it always end up town and the person always seems town but other people some how think they are suspicious, I always think they are town.

1) No sane town lynches off of rvs. You will NEVER ever see it happen ever. The only reason a player who was wagoned in rvs will get lynched is if he responds badly under pressure.
2) Generalization. I can point to a game where the town wagoned me to l-1 in the confirmation stages and I was scum. Your chance of hitting on a truly random vote are 3/13 right now (again, assuming 3 man team, blah blah).
3) I don't know where you come from (no offence, you may have different mafia customs...) but people never really believe in early game reads. They will tell you otherwise to shake up the wagonee in order to get reaction.

That is why, on most of the games, I don't vote on the first day

This is anti-town and provided vig powers I would shoot you now. You should have

no

reluctance to vote for a player who is scummy on d-1 at all.

it is way easer to find scum on the second day, looking back on what people have said and all. That is my style, waiting for information to pass by then go at it, not try to strive for it when I know I won't able to get it.

No argueing scum are found more on d-2 then on d-1 just by more information being available. But have you ever thought about where that information comes from? How do we have more information on d-1 then d-2? Well because people talk and bandwagon people that's why. And withholding your vote is in essence withholding information to a certain extent.

I dont give a flying shit if other people vote for other people, that is fine by me, it gives me a chance to see why and what was the consequences in the action they had.

So it would be safe to assume that you don't want people to see what your actions are. You wanna fly under the radar d-1 and then come out d-2 looking like friggin superman? And you do realize that if everybody withheld their vote (like you do) you wouldn't have any of that prized "information" that you love.

I just don't want people to say that I am scum cause I don't vote and all. But for some reason they do.

^and for good reason. Again I would vote for you right now, but I respect my other heads vote right now.

Also, where is the mod?

yeah, some prods need to be dished out to people who haven't confirmed yet...

[CooLskins]

^valid enough for now.

[CooLskins]

hay wait a second espy. What questions did you ask?

[CooLskins]

I'm a going to fix the quote tags for my convince, no content has been changed.

Okay where to start with this, lets break this down.

Well to answer your question. No, I am against it.

Great, no problems what so ever. But after this it falls through with this:

I hate the idea of lynching some one(if the RVS is still on) and it always end up town and the person always seems town but other people some how think they are suspicious, I always think they are town.

1) No sane town lynches off of rvs. You will NEVER ever see it happen ever. The only reason a player who was wagoned in rvs will get lynched is if he responds badly under pressure.
2) Generalization. I can point to a game where the town wagoned me to l-1 in the confirmation stages and I was scum. Your chance of hitting on a truly random vote are 3/13 right now (again, assuming 3 man team, blah blah).
3) I don't know where you come from (no offence, you may have different mafia customs...) but people never really believe in early game reads. They will tell you otherwise to shake up the wagonee in order to get reaction.

1) To be honest, I feel lost and confused on day one >_> I really don’t know what goes on it it. And by the time its out of RVS half of the day is over(a week was the time so after 5 days after that’s when I reline and it is kind of to late to do anything.
2)okay?
3)But wouldn’t it be best to try to get more than one person than on one person? Unless some one else comes along and trys to defend that person(which is me right now I suspect)

That is why, on most of the games, I don't vote on the first day

This is anti-town and provided vig powers I would shoot you now. You should have

no

reluctance to vote for a player who is scummy on d-1 at all.

The point is I usually see no one as scum, but I most likely will since the day is longer.

it is way easer to find scum on the second day, looking back on what people have said and all. That is my style, waiting for information to pass by then go at it, not try to strive for it when I know I won't able to get it.

No argueing scum are found more on d-2 then on d-1 just by more information being available. But have you ever thought about where that information comes from? How do we have more information on d-1 then d-2? Well because people talk and bandwagon people that's why. And withholding your vote is in essence withholding information to a certain extent.

*sweat drops* >_> I know I know.. I really do need to change my ways.

Okay lets take part1...

1) To be honest, I feel lost and confused on day one >_> I really don’t know what goes on it it. And by the time its out of RVS half of the day is over(a week was the time so after 5 days after that’s when I reline and it is kind of to late to do anything.
2)okay?
3)But wouldn’t it be best to try to get more than one person than on one person? Unless some one else comes along and trys to defend that person(which is me right now I suspect)

1) This is most likely due to no fault of yours. Most likely you come from a place that has very short deadlines and where scum hunting isn't as encouraged. The the advice of the guy with 3d glasses on darthvader, play a good portion of a "noob" (trust me they are just as competitive as normals) game and read the wiki and you should be fine.
2)generalizations hurt the town. This is because they discourage discussion, scum hunting, etc. But it is a minor point.
3)I'm having some difficulty with your point #3. But from my understand you are saying that we should build up wagons correct? Well that's the point of rvs. And actually someone going over the top to defend a really silly point is a "Scum tell" so yeah...

The point is I usually see no one as scum, but I most likely will since the day is longer.

Again, you don't have to see anyone as scum to use your vote for town purposes. This may seem counter intuitive, but when you start to think about it it makes more sense. And naturally you will accumulate more reads later on.

*sweat drops* >_> I know I know.. I really do need to change my ways.

Its not a matter of changing your ways, its more about making the logical choice and thinking about the repercussions of your actions. This will improve over time. Look up any one of my games (this is CooLDoG) and you will see that I really suck (Go to mafia disscussion/forum 62 and ask anybody, except for a very select few). That's mainly due to me not see what my actions really mean. And with my self made "improvement project" I can already see my play develop and increase.

Esp, you mean the questions from RQS, before the RVS, which we are now out of? What's so scummy about my answers?
I make mod appear
Also:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elf
You're either a very anti-town townie or scum, and I'm down with lynching either. If a bw picks up on one of my FoSes, I'll gladly
change my vote.

Also, some friendly advice. Since you're new and not used to the way things work here, you should play at least one Newbie Game. Not just one day, but a significant part (if not the whole game). I know I'm a newbie too, but I'm not coming from a completely different culture like you are. GL in the future, and I hope to play you again.

Thanks, but since im 5/7 do i claim now.

also, wait nvm.

This isnt a themed game so the mod won't give false claims to the mafia.

And thanks

Okay, and why is this relevant if you are town? I find this to be a major slip. (stupid head again. I'm going to wait until he comes up and posts why he thinks kool is scummy...)

and the justification after the post, of course you

meant

to say it

I honestly don't know. I'd wait until L-1, but there might be a quickhammer before you claim. Defer to more experienced player.

Did you just claim Maf...? Also, you know Maf can make their own fakeclaim...?

And no problem

Oh, well I thought the mod gave them and no I am not claiming mafia. I was going to say i was iffy about claiming since mods give fake claims >_>

Still even if he did give out fake claims why wouldn't you still claim your real role? I'm just asking why would your claim change at all?

RQS questions

So wait a second. You are basing your votes off of questions that you asked to more or less kill time? Or are you just voting for the biggest wagon to try to get a townie lynched?

Also My join date (CooLDoG) is in 2009 so is Bub's. And I'm pretty sure you can infer by that that we are not fresh out of noob games...

[CooLskins]

Damn it! their was a 6th page? Bah, I just won't post about it right now and read it later.

[CooLskins]

^my exact thoughts. Mod killed for claiming something different? What the hell.

@espy/kool/espy town hunting thing. Okay where to start?
Town hunting is a perfectly valid strategy. Lets just say that right here and now. Vi wrote something about this that really hits the nail on the head (its on the wiki @ http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... ot_fit_all). By the process of elimination if you find all the townies then you automatically know the scum. I personally don't like doing that, but what ever works for you/him is best. So from Vi:

scumhunting is hyped up pretty well, but being able to Townhunt is fairly close behind in terms of importance. For obvious reasons, you don't want to lynch someone you have identified as Town. In addition, as you accumulate Town reads you can begin to lynch and argue from process of elimination. As long as your Town reads are accurate, process of elimination is one of the scariest things you can do to scum - now they not only have to look Town (which is already difficult for them), but they have to look more Town than others in order to evade your suspicion.

Of course, this leaves the question of how to identify Townies. This comes with the same experience described earlier when scumhunting was discussed.

I don't find town hunting in itself to be scummy.

I'm kinda getting why my other head likes kool as scum now, yet I'm still not convinced, I'm going to prod him to get in here and post his thoughts so far.

@mod, mind pming the people who have yet to confirm?

[CooLskins]

ninja'd and I didn't want to put some on my above post...

Okay, that makes more sense. I was confused a bit there.

People keep going back and reading the thread, huh? Man, I might do that, but I don't have the dedication or the time. So, unfortunately, as much as I hate to say it,

I often rely on other peoples' evidence and theories

, and use those to formulate my own (note that I do not just bw along with their theories).

So you admit to being a sheep? And that you are easily manipulated by popular opinion? So you are admitting to a lack of independent judgment? This reads as going with the flow to me.

[CooLskins]

damn you people ninja and I'm to impulsive and always press the submit button...

@sleepy, how much is a meta argument really worth?

[CooLskins]

^yes, but he says that he uses other peoples reasons to make his own. This (at least how I read it) shows a lack of content generation and a simple follower. Even if he does change things around a bit the core of his positions will always be other peoples. Also give up on meta. Its not that useful.

[CooLskins]

second sentience is scrambled. Should read:
This (at least how I read it) shows a lack of content generation, and makes him a simple follower.

[CooLskins]

Read above.

[CooLskins]

^but that isn't what you said. You said that you base most of your opinions on other people's. Re-reads are good though.

[CooLskins]

Now that defense is out of the way, I am finding Kal scummy right now. Since I suck at note-taking and presenting lists, I'll just try to name a few things I find scummy...

Mostly because of his whimsical voting for me back there for no reason whatsoever. The flimsy non-reason he gave wasn't even a valid one. Also his liking of bandwagons, in the scummy sense. Also his read on Elfen as newbtown, with no evidence to differentiate between that and clever mafia.

Also because I desire for there to be a lynch soon.

This is and isn't a bandwagon. I have indeed presented reasoning above, which makes it, at least, less scummy than Kal's bandwagoning. He has presented some redeeming logic, but anyone can be logical, even mafia. I may go read through a few more people, but for now, I'll vote for him.

We have sooo much time to make up our minds. Why should we lynch soon when we can wait a bit to make a better read? You aren't suggesting that we quick lynch day 1 are you? And why is lynching now better for the town then lynching later?

Right now I'm fully convinced that kool should be today's lynch. He also never seemed to defend (at least to my satisfaction) his sheeping and going with the flow.

In other news, I need to really arse my hydra partner to post more.

[CooLskins]

Okay, we know that both Kool and Elfen are noobs. That's obvious. But there is a difference between noob-town and noob-scum. I made a topic about this in Mafia Discussion once, and the difference is

motive

. Both noob-town and noob-scum will act scummy, but noob-town want to help lynch scum while noob-scum don't care. Kool is noob-scum. Case in point:

I'm going with the flow because trying to go against it makes my head hurt, calls me out as different, and makes everyone slam me with a barrage of questions, needing reasonings that I can't always put into words, and that makes my head hurt even more.

Wow. I thought I was ready for a small game here, no problem. Turns out everyone I've ever played with before is hopelessly newb compared to everyone here. You guys are downright aggressive.

And I'm not in a good way as far as defending myself goes. I've had to defend myself a couple times in the past two weeks, and almost every time failed at it and been driven to a lynch.

Everyone expects different reactions.

It makes my head hurt trying to conform.

And I can anticipate your reaction. 'Conforming? Scum! Lynch him now.' Trust me, it ain't that simple. You have to conform to the expectations of the scumhunters or get lynched as scum, whatever your allegiance is. And in the past week, I've had to deal with four distinctly different expectations. My head hurts.

Still, no excuse not to at least try, right? IIOA, right? Or whatever that acronym was? Fine. I'll make a proper case on someone. I just historically fail at defending myself, whether I'm town or scum.

This post (especially the bolded parts) belay Kool's true motive: not to get caught. Throughout the game Kool has made no efforts to catch scum but he has made every effort to conform and follow the town's expectations. Because he's a noob he doesn't know what those expectations are, but he has tried to follow them.

As far as Kalc, he is scummy, but he's not the lynch for today. Whether or not he is the lynch for tomorrow will depend on Kool's flip.

[CooLskins]

I think they two scummiest people here are Kal and Sleepy to be honest with you. Elfen is confirmed town.

I think Kool is confirmed scum but at this point I think we can save him for the second lynch if we catch his buddy.

Sleepy seems to be defending Kool(could be his buddy), while Kal is obviously distancing. Not sure which side i want to pick in the end, but I do want a claim

Vote:Kalofer

Why would you ever not lynch confirmed scum? I'm just asking. Because if you know for sure that someone is scum, shouldn't you lynch them? Isn't that the general idea of the game?

Okay, The Kool. Here's what it comes down to. I was asked why I find you so pro-town, so I went back and read your ISO. You're playing really scummy, and I honestly can't blame people for finding you suspicious. However, I don't want to waste today's lynch on someone I believe so strongly to be pro-town. I want you to claim. I suspect that you've been breadcrumbing, and that's the only reason I have for finding you pro-town. If you're a PR, claim now so we don't lose a townie today and another tonight.

Despite role fishing here there is something that sticks out even more. Its this:

Okay, The Kool. Here's what it comes down to. I was asked why I find you so pro-town, so I went back and read your ISO. You're playing really scummy, and I honestly can't blame people for finding you suspicious. However, I don't want to waste today's lynch on someone I believe so strongly to be pro-town.

We never know why he thinks kool is pro-town. "Ohh, he's pro town" is the only reason we get. Aside from the stupid role fish you have yet to answer a basic question, and you actually seem to be dodging that question in later posts.

I was asked to defend him against a large number of people who were suspicious of him. I had already showed my allegiance to him earlier on without explaining it, so I felt the need to. In retrospect, I should have heightened my actual case, instead of forcing a claim (a claim I had "proof" for, no less!).

Also, yes, he wasn't at L-1. More bad playing from me. I have no excuse for that. I've been incredibly stressed for other reasons recently, and I let them bleed into the game instead of playing logically. Not that that's a reason. I'm living every single thing I warn newbies against, and I can't believe what a monumentally bad play that was. The mind boggles. I'm also used to 9-player games, where 5 would be the majority, instead of 7. I felt I needed to because I was afraid he'd be lyched and we'd lose two townies before day 2 instead of one. In my mind, it was the only possible play for me, but my mind turned out to be really dumb.

Another appeal to being a noob? What is this game turned into? Let's lynch the less nooby person because they know for sure whats going on and they have to be scum.

unvote, vote: charter

<- this guy is so much more experienced then me that he has got to be scum. Simply because he makes no mistakes and looks pro town means that he is scum. NO other questions about it he is too good to be town. Lets lynch him.

And again he doesn't actually lay out that case. Let me guess the reason why he doesn't lay out that case. Because he doesn't have one.
@quinnster,
1)do you or do you not have a case on kool being town? If yes, you had better have it in your next fucking post.
2) can you or can you not defend yourself without using the noob card? And in your next post do it.
3)Why should we believe you? If yes, in your next post tell me why.
4)Scum reads here and now with reasons. No exceptions.

unvote, vote: quinster

. I will also be voting for the next person who uses the noob card as a defense. Spawning a new strategy: lynch all noobs.But in all seriousness, it's really getting a tad bit ridiculous.

[CooLskins]

Sorry for any confusion in me saying "kalc" when I meant Kalofer. Man, Quin's looking scummier by the moment. What I find scummy about him, however, is not the rolefishing. I view rolefishing to be a weak tell at best. What I don't like about him is that he totally crapped his pants after only one vote. As soon as he was caught, he instantly got defensive and somewhat scared. That's scum behaviour, plain and simple.

Also,

FoS: Spreme Overlord

. Asking meaningless questions about other people and yet not taking a firm stand on anything or voting is textbook diplomatic scum.

[CooLskins]

Oh, sorry. Overlord

did

vote for Kal back with his first post. However, his remaining posts have been spent asking weak questions directed at Kal and others that don't have any weight behind them.

PS: In case you're confused, the first post was made by CooLDoG, the last two were made by Bub.

[CooLskins]

@quinnster,
1)do you or do you not have a case on kool being town? If yes, you had better have it in your next fucking post.
2) can you or can you not defend yourself without using the noob card? And in your next post do it.
3)Why should we believe you? If yes, in your next post tell me why.
4)Scum reads here and now with reasons. No exceptions.

unvote, vote: quinster

. I will also be voting for the next person who uses the noob card as a defense. Spawning a new strategy: lynch all noobs.But in all seriousness, it's really getting a tad bit ridiculous.

1) I do not. It was only my stupid view of him breadcrumbing.

Not to respond with a another quote but,

I was asked to defend him against a large number of people who were suspicious of him. I had already showed my allegiance to him earlier on without explaining it, so I felt the need to.

In retrospect, I should have heightened my actual case

, instead of forcing a claim (a claim I had "proof" for, no less!).

So your case only consists of one point?

2) I cannot. I've been playing for a while. I should know better. I was easily able to handle two games, but now something's happening IRL that's clearly making me not think straight. I am not going to pull out the newb card, because I should not need it, and I won't hide behind it.

^yet you do not make an effort to defend yourself without using it.

INFORMATION: I will advocate the lynch of anybody who uses the noob card after this point.

3) I didn't really leave myself a lot of room to be believed, here, did I? I should hope you can see that it would be a shitty move if I was mafia, and it would be a shitty move if I was town. I'm not trying to play WIFOM, but trying to show that it was a shitty move in general.
SO we should believe you because your play is bad that neither scum nor town would do it? Isn't that the same thing as the noob card? And we never hear real facts or quotes to believe you.

4)

Espeonage

- In ISO #s 8 and 9, being sure that elfen is town so early, in ISO #14, telling everyone else to completely stop looking at elfen, ISO #19 voting for Kalofer while saying he's not his "favourite choice" seems like distancing, in ISO #28 confirming three more town without any sort of doubt whatsoever.

fine, much better. You actually site information.

now on to other things...

I think they two scummiest people here are Kal and Sleepy to be honest with you. Elfen is confirmed town. I think Kool is confirmed scum but at this point I think we can save him for the second lynch if we catch his buddy.

Sleepy seems to be defending Kool(could be his buddy), while Kal is obviously distancing. Not sure which side i want to pick in the end, but I do want a claim

Vote:Kalofer

I'm distancing orrrrrr I'm town and voting for someone who I think is scum, why are you preferring the former over the latter?
As to the claim I'm a VT.

yeah, do I really need to saying anything about this. Yes one thing:

Why the hell did you claim at L-3?

@All

Is anyone else confused about why you would see something you think is someone bread crumbing and then call attention to it as town, especially if that player is not the leading wagon?

I'd be happy with either Quinn or Kal as a lynch today. Kool can wait til we lynch Quinn.

why would it matter whether I claim at L-1, 2, 3 or whatever?

Answer: Because lets say you were actually a power role. Lets say a doctor for example. You claim at l-3. People aren't really committed to your wagon (as is right now) and we go off and lynch some other guy. The scum (knowing that you are town) nk you and we lose the doc over nothing. If, however, you claimed at l-1 you wouldn't have given the scum the information as early as you would have when you claimed at l-3. And the town is already sorta going to lynch you so if you don't get lynched today the scum might rationalize that you are dead meat and not nk you to wifom the town.

I don't understand any of Espeonage's theories/reads

Who does?
But one thing can be said about espy, he is ether doing a good job of trying to find out what is going on or he is doing a really good job of covering up his rolefishing.

Alright. You recall me pulling out the newb card, yes? Here's the newb card? There goes the newb card, out the window. Bye! I plan to never need you again.

Yes, but is this because some one said they would lynch you over it (me). Or is it because you are actually going to post content?

Before I get on to my reads, I would just like to wave the card I just threw out the window one more time.

^you know, this is exactly what I was thinking you were going to do.

Conclusion: I would be willing to lynch Quinster, kool, and kalf in that order.

[CooLskins]

Kal and Kool may both be scummy, but they are not scum together. I don't reads Kool's vote on Kal as a bus, and Kal's attitude towards Kool is not indicative of them being scum together. Right now, I've got a stronger scum read on Kool than Kal, so right now I think Kal is prob town. Scummy town, but town nonetheless. ATM I'm thinking the scum team is Quin/Kool/Supreme Overlord. I'm a little weak on the Supreme Overlord read, but that's what I've got.

[CooLskins]

Oops, sorry, I was going by number on the the quote @_@

12)Kal- Well, what can I say here, from a 1-10 (1 being town 10 being scum) I say he is like a 7.5, basically following a person I don't even understand @_@

and oops, why did I put that for 5?

5) I meant to say... he is a 6, He hasn't posted much, nor tried many things, but I am still curious to why he thinks I am suspicious.

Sorry, for the late post.. a Tornado watch where I live >_> and my grandparents where like.. "Get off the computer in case the computer shuts down and won't mess it up" >_> so yeah, That's why i have been on and off. and excessive reading >_> (♥ being a nerd)

@SK, I shall do that tomorrow.. I gotta study for bio test thats tomorrow, and I am makign like a 76-85 and If I do not make a 94-100 on this test, I'm fucked, I get grounded if I get a B

Okay, if Kal is your number one scum read, then why did you basically copy all of his reads?

[CooLskins]

I'd be willing to bet that Quinnster replaced out because he was caught scum, this happens quite often. Sorry earworm, but your predecessor has screwed you. Earworm can't answer for things that quinnster's done and the replacement has effectively left us in a situation where the correct play is to lynch earworm.

@Elfen, also curious why you copied all of kalofer's reads, and why am I neutral "plain and simple"

I have actually been thinking the exact same thing. Quinsters actions would be grounds for a d-1 lynch in any other game. That is why (unless my partner has changed it) my vote is on quin/ear right now. This actually brings up an interesting situation: Is replacing out after making a scummy post a scum behavior? I personally think that it is.

I have to go shortly but will be back, but just in case I get held up here are some of my reads:
Elf=town
kool=scummy
And I'm currently finding kal's recent posts to be more town driven then before, so he has upgraded to net/slightly scummy

sorry for the lack of content in this post but hopefully more later.

[CooLskins]

Sorry I didn't get to this sooner:

Could you give me an exapmple of a question that might hold 'more weight'?

A probing question that furthers your current wagon, not just a bunch of weak, clarification questions. One good question is worth a dozen fluff questions. This reads to me of scum trying to conform.

I understand the argument on Quin. Mostly. Though I disagree, he did indeed act scummy. However, this replacement logic is fucking bullshit. Did any of you guys actually consider doing a little research? Quin has also replaced out of his other game, and his past post in general was four or five days ago.
I'm going to reread to see who first suggested replacing as a scumtell, and who advocated it.

I don't like the implied threat here. To me, the reason that Quin was scummy was because when he got caught rolefishing, he instantly got scared and defensive. With regards to his replacement, we should be wary of letting him charm us, and Quin's scumminess should still count against his slot. I just finished a game where a scummy player replaced out, and his replacement was able to charm his way into the town's good books, but it turned out that he was indeed scum.

@Elfen: I don't belive you answered my question. Why did you basically copy all of the reads from your number one scum read?

[CooLskins]

Also, SK, I'm a little confused by your post. What do you think of Quin/Earworm?

[CooLskins]

(This feels SO MUCH[] like a Newbie game. Am I in the right forum?)

This is exactly what I'm thinking right now.

@ear worm, what questions will you be willing to answer? Because the main reason why we (hydra) think that your slot is scum is because of the actions of your predecessor. And it seems to be an all to convenient road block that you have set up. Also post a list of your top 3 scums.

[CooLskins]

@ CS, would you mind posting you suspicions to from the past 48 hours and tell why? If you don't mind :p

Yes I can. But here is the deal I can only speak for my (CooLDoG's) part of the hydra. Bub has some different reads then me so this will most likly be in two parts.

los:
Quinster/earworm- Role fishy fishy, horrific reactions to votes, pathetic replace out, and out right refusal to answer questions (ear's first post), then a slight back-track about it later.

The Kool- mostly made from my other heads convincing. I know find him scummy after an iso/ re-read of him. reasons: No scum hunting at all. No effort put into finding scum. Bad reactions to votes. Scum motivation for posts. And lack of a definitive position (always going with the flow/ never makes up his onw mind)

and if you force me to name a scum team right now I would have to say kal.

Partly

Mostly based on gut (I still find him net to slightly scummy right now). Also his early claim is kinda weird, and some of his earlier posts aren't that good. This is not a strong read at all.

so for me I would like ether a kool or a earworm lynch.

[CooLskins]

If you think we're lynching Panzer for that, you're very wrong.

I hate to quote people and say, "he is right." but in this case I must. Panzer has always been advocating the ear lynch. He wants ear dead. And if a slightly humoristic comment can get him lynched then so be it. He is NOT tomorrow's lynch at all.

@charter, is spitting out bad mafia theory scummy? Or just misinformed?

Brilliant, we have

tomorrow's lynch

. Panzer,

i don't care if you're town or not

(If Earworm is you probably aren't) that was out of order. You ask for a claim instead. And you are only allowed to do that if they are at L-1 and you aren't on the wagon already.

@espy, So you would lynch him even if you got a (theoretical) cop innocent on him? You are blindly lynching people without anilzing their posts to try to gain town credit.

What the heck, Panzer?

That is the most blatantly scummy thing I've ever heard to date!

Unless you have some serious reasoning to back that up... I have to agree with Ear on that one. Seriously, can anyone explain why there my ever be any reason to selfhammer aside from Mafia giving up? Asking someone to do so is utterly pointless in either case.

Same as above, you are just trying to lynch somebody (possibly to derail the ear wagon) who has made one bad post in order to gain town credit. And if that is the most scummy thing you have seen all day! why didn't you vote for him?

My personal view on the panzer thing is that people are over reacting to nothing. Today's lynch is ear worm period.

[CooLskins]

I agree with LordChronos, people are making too big a deal out of the self-hammer call.

@CooLskins
Is there a reason why you're asking charter for the impact of bad mafia theory if you're calling Espeonage out on the same thing? (Disregarding alignment and setting up lynches).

yes, specifically because he said that, "espy is spewing out bad mafia theory all the time". I wanted to know if because of that he thought it was scummy. It has nothing to do with espy (only that he is the one doing to spewing...).

kk, "thoughts" after this post. But first:
It would be anti-town to not hammer here. The town feels as though ear is the proper lynch, and is ready to gogogo. My read on him as town is purely gut, and I have said several times I might be wrong. Now will you stop tunneling and actually contribute?

Hilarious. You don't hammer someone you think is town over a week before deadline if you are town. Your explanation is crap and you are scum.

So, ignore the fact he also replaced out of his other game, ignore he hasn't logged on in five days, and assume he's lying and that there isn't actually something going on in his life? Yeah, sure.

Since he said he was replacing out because he said he sucked, yeah, I am ignoring that.

Your explanation of your questions was terrible and leaves me even more confused. Just keep on calling me scum, I don't care, but I'm not going to keep running around with you about this, so save your breath. And go ahead and dance around in your tin foil hat waving your arms about how I'm scum because I didn't answer your questions. See how that goes.

I said I have gutread on town that did something scummy. If the town has agreed on it, then why do you want me to stay away? So you can point at me later?
Your replacing logic sucks, so yeah, I'm ignoring it.
And yes, not answering questions is scummy as hell.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: charter

Okay this is a quote pyramid, but I need to show it in order to provide proper context. Here is what basically happned:
1)SK says, "It would be anti town to

not

hammer in this case". Regradless of the fact that we have a week, and the town can always use more time to talk (why do you think quick lynches are bad?)
2) Charter call him out on it. with "Hilarious. You don't hammer someone you think is town over a week before deadline if you are town. Your explanation is crap and you are scum.". Which is a fair assessment of what sleepy said.
3) "waaa , your logic sucks. vote for charter!". I'm not a fan of omgus being a scum tell, but this is really just silly.

@charter
Missed 479. I'm not making a big deal out of it. 517 provides no substantive empirics to show correlation so I'm going to ignore that.

@elfen
When have I made a big deal out of nothing?

unvote

I hate it when people unvote without voting. You do realize that not voting is almost the same as voting for a no lynch (depending on the rules of the game). And common, you have to have more then one read. As a VT you only have one power and that is to vote, so use it. [/rant]

@panzer, lynch happy much? One off-hand humanistic comment (I don't like jokes though...) is fine, but a whole half page is a little bit much.

fos: panzer

. We can let ns catch up and post what he thinks, we have a week or so. However, ear worm is still the best wagon, panz3er is still mild compared to ear/kool imho.
Why are you in such a hurry to hammer?

@elf, I couldn't care less if you hammered, but as kal said it would be beneficial if you allowed for ns/hip to post their reads. The more the town knows the better chance at winning they have.

[CooLskins]

Apparently Sleepy is okay with lynching half the living players. Sleepy, do you have any speculation on the scumteams whatsoever?

Right now, I think that Panzer is very scummy if ear flips town. From my (Bub's) point of view, his asking for a hammer on ear goes beyond what can be considered town pushing for a lynch. If ear flips scum, however, then Panzer is all but cleared.

[CooLskins]

I want to answer these questions before night phase (all for sk):

@Hydra 551:
1. This question confuses me. You tell me not to lynch early, then say I think quicklynches are bad. But yeah, I didn't realize we had that much more time. Still, the town is set on ear. Prolonging it won't add anything useful, just more garbage to sift through later.

I always assume that public information is always known by all players (this includes deadlines, lynch rules, night phase length, prod dates, etc.). Actually it has had something useful, you directing power roles, and you making out right scummy comments. As well as a solidification of my kool read. Sometimes when a lynch is a "sure thing" the scum might take a "we got him" attitude and become complacent.

2. Quinn acted scummy. My only reasoning for town was a gut read. I'm perfectly fine with lynching an anti-town townie, because, once again, my read is GUT.

Lynching a townie is never good simply because it helps fulfill the scum win condition. This could be debated (is killing someone who harms you, but hurts your enemy worth it?).

3. OMGUS? I said NeEvil was scum. I've been saying charter is scum. Not OMGUS. And tell me, is it not scummy to not answer my questions? How the hell not?

Then why did you vote him only after he called you out, and not before? If anything he was scum hunting in that post.

Depending on the ear flip some players will get some scum points (I'm looking at panzer and SK here).

[CooLskins]

Knowing that you're town sickens me sleepy, it's making me lose hope

Erm, what?

Yeah, is that a cop softclaim? No strike that, is that a cop claim?

vote: SK

Stupid votes, and non-definitive reads. As my other head points out, he wants to lynch half the town.

He's been after me for a while.

I

only voted him because

the Kal

wagon failed

and he was my #2 read. And everybody still refuses to acknowledge that he refuses to answer my questions.

I look forward to the flip and to tomorrow

Need I say anything? Apparently I do... So you voted him because he was

After you for a while

and because he didn't answer questions.

The second reason is legitimate, not answering questions isn't pro-town and stops the town from gaining information.

The first reason is out right [insert your favorite slightly offensive derogatory term]. So you wanted to lynch charter (who flipped town I might add) simply because he was suspicious of you? I have suspicions of you, why don't you want to lynch me? I have been after you for a while now, why don't you want to lynch me? I have a feeling that the second reason is just to cover up your real motive for wanting charter (and using the same logic,

me

us [damn hydra] lynched). Your real motive for wanting charter lynched is to get rid of people who suspect you.

And you should never vote for someone just because your wagon failed, you should always be voting for your number 1 read, unless deadline/special mechanics would make it unwise for you to do so. And farther more, no one was going to lynch charter. There is/was even less support for a charter lynch then for a kal lynch. So even your point about kal's wagon fizzling out makes no logical sense.

Ohh, and we must add this in as well while we are at this:

If I don't die, that is. But I don't see why scum would bother killing me.

Doc on the hydra?

Directing power roles... So many things are wrong with doing this, I don't even want to start.

Put simply I don't forsee anybody else getting lynched today except for this guy. I'm going to have to get bub in here to post something,

@mod: but Bub is having computer problems right now, so he is on v/la. However, Bub might have an alternate way of posting... You should expect the same activity from me though (CooLDoG)

V/LA noted.

-Midnight

[CooLskins]

I don't like how that quote tag came out (3rd quote). A lot can be said for the preview button can't it?

[CooLskins]

Quote dissecting time

Knowing that you're town sickens me sleepy, it's making me lose hope

Erm, what?

Yeah, is that a cop softclaim? No strike that, is that a cop claim?

vote: SK

You're voting the supposed cop's inno? 

So we have a watcher, tracker, and a cop in the same game? Also, He never came out and formally claimed and thus I voted for you...

Stupid votes, and non-definitive reads. As my other head points out, he wants to lynch half the town.

Point to my stupid votes? Point to my non-definitive reads? I had 4 suspects, with a supposed 3 man scumteam. 4 is too much? [/quote]
The unvote of kal is mega stupid. As I said, your charter vote was going no where at all, and because of that you weren't contributing to the town at all, thus a stupid vote. You should also narrow down your scum suspects a little more. ! of those 4 has got to be way scummier then the other 3. Place your vote on that person near the start of the day/when he reaches that scum level and stick to your guns.

So you voted him because he was

After you for a while

and because he didn't answer questions.

I was under attack for supposedly OMGUSing him. So I explained that he'd been after me for a while, but I didn't vote him because I thought Kal was scummier. The Kal wagon failed, I moved to my #2 read. I've been saying that slot is scum for quiet a while, no OMGUS. Unfortunately, I was wrong.[/quote]
So we really don't answer anything here do we? again we have the "Because he has been after me for a while"  reasoning. Because anybody who was after such a pro-town player as yourself would most certainly have to be scum. I'm asking you specifically about that "He has been after

ME

" thing.

Ohh, and we must add this in as well while we are at this:

If I don't die, that is. But I don't see why scum would bother killing me.

Doc on the hydra?

Directing power roles... So many things are wrong with doing this, I don't even want to start.

Enlighten me please. I don't see what's wrong with it, and would love an explanation. And I asked for you to be docced because you are the most protown. 

Anything else?[/quote]
I think the other people have explained this well enough for now, if you want me to I could explain farther.

All for now, more later, bit of a rush with stuff this morning (yes, even though its a holiday...)

[CooLskins]

yes, I screwed up those quote tags. It is still readable though (the bbcode on that one was really weird),

So I'm back and I would like to address some other things...

Cool, that's a really good case and all which I totally agree with but there's one thing that is making me hugely doubt it and that's the charter kill, how do you explain it?

Charter kill is easy to explain. I normally don't like night action speculation because it diverts the town, but because you asked I will...

Possibly night action order:
1) Scum kill NS.
2) Sleepy, being the sk (Irony?) kills charter because he is pro-town and suspicious of him.

^it is possible, if not probable.

And SK decided to nightkill charter (being a vig... WHICH HE BREADCRUMBED TOO PEOPLE) because he believes that everyone who disagrees with him is definitely scum (look at necessary evil, me and charter as the most obvious examples).
.

You do realize that vig is simply the best fake claim for an sk? Tracker/watcher/gunsmith gets same results. Only a cop can differentiate between a vig and an sk for sure. Also the disagreeing point also gives more proof to an sk role. Keep in mind I'm not saying that SK is cum, I'm saying that SK is scum in the sense that he is an anti-town role. Sorry if I was un-clear...

Knowing that you're town sickens me sleepy, it's making me lose hope

This is where I get the cop/softclaim, however, with the new watcher claim I find another investigative role to be unlikely...

Now lets get to some of sleepy's posts that I didn't have time to get to before...

The BW on Kal failed. I'M NOT THE VIG.

Okay lets follow your logic.
1) Top suspect's wagon failed.
2) No point in voting for a wagon that wouldn't go anywhere
3) vote for my #2 suspect, whose wagon has even a

less chance of getting a lynch

How does this make sense? You unvoted because your #1 failed, and then you voted on another "wagon" which had an even less chance of lynching.

Yes, I do indeed see a softclaim. And I think I know what for as well.

and

Except we can't be sure we can believe you.
Also, claim for those of us without half a brain?

Role fishing. If you already knew what he was claiming, why ask again?

Why did you claim then, if you were blocked?

The "duh, you were so stupid" card... You wanted him to claim, and then you said it was dumb for him to claim???

It would have happened to elfin if I hadn't stepped in just before he was quick-lynched. There are a fair few newbies here. You can never be too sure.

Truth!

and lastly,

1. I don't think Kal is cop.
2. Kal is my scummiest. He had my vote most of D1. He has my vote now.
3. Again, I was under attack for supposedly OMGUSing him. I pointed out that it wasn't OMGUS. We'd both been after each other for a long time, and I only switched to him after the Kal wagon failed. Again, I was wrong here.

Hip, enlighten?

Look if you don't want to answer any thing about your continuous use of the wording, "He was after me for a while". Then I will not respond to your posts.

He being after you is not a town motivation for a vote, in fact it is a survivalist/scum motivation for a vote. And again, you switched your vote from a dying wagon

to a wagon that had zero support.

. And to top things off, kal's wagon doesn't have any support at all. its dead. Why are you voting for him then? We have been after each other for a while, and espy wouldn't mind my lynch, why don't you go and vote for me? using your charter logic I would be an A+ vote.

Will you or will you not answer to my points? You are currently cherry picking the easy stuff to answer and not answering to the bigger issues. I will not tolerate it. So here are my questions:

1) Why is "he being after me for a while" a valid town reason?
2) why is hopping off your #1 scum read to a wagon that had zero support a town motivated vote?
3) why is am I not a good lynch (based off of your logic)?
4) Build a case on kal.
5)Why is your vote your charter vote conveniently voted right after he attacks you?
5a)Why not switch it before? The wagon was just a dead.
6)Why did you suggest a doc protection on me?
7)Why direct power roles in general?
8)What are your reasons for voting for charter?

Answer to all of these 9 points.

Sorry if this is ling winded. And also sorry if it seems like it is mushed together (it was, It was written in 2 15 minute periods about 1 hour apart)...

[CooLskins]

@SK: with regards to you suspecting half the living players, here's the post that you made that led me to say that:

Fine with Lynching:
Kalofer
charter
Espeonage
Kool
Elf

Getting There:
Panzer

You essentially said that you would be okay with lynching six people. 6/13=0.46 or about half the living players. Interestingly enough, the person you ended up voting for was not on that list, essentially bringing the total up to seven.

[CooLskins]

Now, with that clarification out of the way, I'm going to

unvote: Sleepy

. If Hiplop's role is what I think it is, and if he's telling the truth, then SK is town.

[CooLskins]

Also, I'm tempted to believe espy's claim. I view it as very improbable that scum would come out and fake-claim as tracker with no results just to try and draw the doc protection, especially this early in the game when a counter-claim is likely. And even if the idea was to out the actual tracker, why try to out the tracker and not a more usefull (and un-protectable) role such as doctor?

[CooLskins]

CooL, my other answers were satisfactory?

Well, this isn't CooL, this is Bub posting from a different PC. I'll let CooLDoG determine if your answers were satisfactory, but I think right now those answers are kind of irrelavent because if Hiplop is telling the truth, then you are virtually confirmed town.

[CooLskins]

Okay, first of all, I think that Hiplop is telling the truth. I really don't see scum claiming another information role when there are already two outed info roles.

Operating under the assumption that both are telling the truth, then espy, hiplop, and Sk are all town. Furthermore, I read Elfen as noob town. That leaves us with:

LordChronos
cloudocean
The Kool
Kalofer
Panzer

If Hiplop and espy are telling the truth, and if that extra kill last night was made by an SK and not a vig, then 3-4 of these players have an anti-town role.

[CooLskins]

I guess Espe and hiplop reads are useless right now, no way we're going after either of them, right?

Unless the scum are evil geniuses and are WIFOMing us to hell, then espy and hiplop are town.

[CooLskins]

Hydra, you just named half the player list
Oh look, Kalofer is on that list. Let's do what we should have done yesterday.

:shrug: I guess I did, but I'm not exactly willing to lynch all of those players (e.g. I don't think LordChronos or cloudocean are the lynches for today).

I'll need to do some more digging. For one, I don't think Kool and Kal are scum together. Kool's play reads more of scum to me than SK, so right now Kool is in my prospective scum pile and Kal is in my prospective SK pile.

Request, could the heads of the hydra sign their posts?

That's a good idea.

-Bub (FYI: every post the hydra's made since #710 has been mine)

[CooLskins]

@Kool, why are you sheeping me/us without adding much if anything? If you don't see something why are you trusting me? Blindly following is nether pro-town nor productive.

Panzer is a tempting vote, but I'm going to have to do some re-reading because sleepy was the obvious lynch for today and I funneled most of my attention to him...

So lets break this down,

We have:
1 watcher
1 tracker
1 gunsmith (cop)
and
1 scum role blocker.
Now lets see how that works out:

Confirmed (assuming truthful claims) town:

Espy
Hip hop
SK

then we have the noob who is all but confirmed (my opinion):

Elfin

So this means that I have these people:

LordChronos
cloudocean
The Kool
Kalofer
Panzer

to iso, which I will start on now with Lord Chronos... I will post an iso report after each player. It might take me more then one day, but after those iso's and a possible full context read I will vote...

-

C

oo

LD

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[CooLskins]

scratch that, from looking at lc's iso I think the full re-read should happen first. Which I am doing now...

[CooLskins]

@espy, naturally.

[CooLskins]

Yeah, now that you stop and think about it why would he put his vote on an innocent townie?

Reads will most likely come tomorrow.

[CooLskins]

STOP TRYING TO WORK OUT WHAT HE IS. There are a heap of roles it could be. STOP IT and play the game.

^my second best town read.... I'm going to post my first part of my reads today.

[CooLskins]

Yes this is a mighty wall of death right here. A summary will be added at the end for all of those who don't have to time or will power to read it.
I have it divided up into stages (or sections if you prefer) so you can have a little context instead of random quotes...

There are questions in here, but most of them don't need to be answered. They are simply thare to explain why the quote is important. However, feel free to answer to them if you want to.

-Stage the first:
The RVS Period

The start of this game is mainly dominated by RVS discussion. While it is not the most important part of the game, or most reviling it still has some relevant points.

Well. I really don't like the RVS stage much, so Imma lay low till things start to pick up and all, past RVS

This still makes me mad...

Kool's 34, 44, 47, and 50 (pages 2&3...) feel like noob to me. Looking at it its the same type of stuff that elfin was saying.

We have as long as we make it. I am perfectly used to RVS as well, and where I came from a day is a week as well, and RVS there usually lasts longer than it just did here. Three weeks is just the limit, we could lynch today if everyone agreed the same guy was scum.

This is a slight appeal for a quick lynch.

Here's a question for everybody: how often in your experience do scum discuss random voting or the RVS? I don't have an answer, which is part of the reason why I'm asking.

Every game I have played. I have not voted, they brought it up and so on >_>

So in order to survive you conform even though you don't personally think its correct. If you adequately express your reasons for not partaking in rvs then you should not be criticized. Why do you care about appearing town?

from then on nothing much happens... until this

Esp, reasoning?

Of course I have reasoning.

minor yet still doesn't answer the question until here

Didn't like his answers to my questions.

but naturally he was refering to these (112),

kks.

1. Do you prefer playing as Mafia/Town/3rd Party?
2. How often do you usually post?
3. What is your timezone?
4. What is your stance on gut reads?
5. Can I expect WoTs from you?

1.

Dunno, only played as Townie :/

2. Every day
3.CST
4.

Usually teh best option to follow if you don't know where to turn

5. Hh?

so he doesn't like the answer to 1 and 4...
I can sorta see it now, his number 4 could warrant an rvs vote but other then that its just the forming of a bandwagon.

Thus ends part 1,

Vote Count D-1 #2

(4) Elfen- LordChronos, The Kool, cloudocean, Espeonage

(2) SleepyKrew- Necessary Evil, Kalofer

(1) Kalofer- SleepyKrew

(1) The Kool- CooLskins


(5) Not voting- WingDamage9001, Quinnster, Elfen, Supreme Overlord, Panzerjager

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is June 3rd, Midnight Central.

Prodding, Supreme Overlord and Panzerjager...

Summary:

So from this my reads don't change that much. Although kool looks worse then he did before and elfin still looks like a noob. Interesting thing is that panzer has really posted in this time, and neither have the other lurkers. At this point sk is looking townie,but I have a feeling that's going to change.

this thing starts at page 1 and goes to page 5, expect more later when I (cooldog) have more time...

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[CooLskins]

note: this is part one, more will be added later...

[CooLskins]

@Hip: If your role confirmed that SK was not a killing role last night, then why did you vote for SK early today for supposedly killing charter?

[CooLskins]

And I forgot to sign that post...

-Bub

[CooLskins]

that wasnt much of a wall coolskins

yeah, because I was originally going to post all of the parts in one section. Then I found out that it would take me longer to re-read then I thought so I just posted what I had.

I find kool's reasons to be rather weak. After day-1 you should have solid reasons to back up your reads.

So you can defend yourself, but not finish your reads? Interesante...

Don't you just hate it when somebody says the exact same thing that you wanted to say?

As for finishing my reads, that will take a while. I might enlist the help of bub to do a combo effort. The unfortunate thing is that my weekdays are busy, but my weekend are wide open. On a good Saturday I can read a whole game a comment on it. We will see how it goes. If I can get bub on here he will speed things up alot...

@mod, Bub got his computer fixed. Aparently it was due to windows xp not being able to write on a hard drive that was over 120gb or so. Crashed on start up (solution was to partition the drive)... anyway he

isn't

v/la anymore.

Noted.

-Midnight

[CooLskins]

First off I'm not going to have enough time to do my reads until tomorrow (Saturday)...

Panzers trying to seperate himself from the wagon. Could be scum? Maybe

Wrong, I'm attempting to derail it because it's probably wrong seeing how fast it picked up and with how little reasoning was behind it.

Sleepy has been acting scummy all game and I agree with Esp's assessment that Sleepy isn't cleared.

Hiplop is getting scummier by the minute. Also I feel he hopped on the wagon the scummiest by far, and once he thought it'd be safe and is now trying to say I'm scummy for realizing scum hopped on.

So many things wrong with this post.

Okay lets start out. NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD HAVE QUICK LYNCHED KOOL. However, good pressure on one of the scummiest players is warranted and will supply a lot of information.
So lets break down your logic on hip hop. So if a wagon is on one of your town reads the scummiest player on that wagon has to be scum. Score one for logic there... I read this as derailing wagon on a scum buddy. What does anybody else think of a kool/panzer scum team?

I'm tempted to vote panzer right now, but I want to do my reads (tomorrow, if I don't plz start a wagon on me to motivate me to do it. I have really slacked off on doing it), and confir with bub on this one.

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[CooLskins]

meh, I liked red to black better.

[CooLskins]

^yeah, but could they have fabricated that? I'm just going to have to wait on this sorta stuff until I have time to do my reads.

[CooLskins]

This is a mini normal, you can't have a flavor cop or any other funny roles. There shouldn't be any role that is left up to player interpretation of the results.

Its kinda fishy that he would need clarification.

@hip, confirm with the mod via pm what exactly your results are.

[CooLskins]

^but it was go through a normalcy review process. Trust me, nothing super crazy that wouldn't give a clear cut answer would get through hoopla. And keep in mind the regulations on those new roles.

[CooLskins]

was=has, but you figured that out already.

[CooLskins]

No, im not setting up a vig, idiot. Don't assume

Im the jailkeeper. I jailkept sleepykrew, and the kill still went through...

See how i had to think about it now?

Now we go for panzer.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Panzer

okay, so you claim jail keeper. A jail keeper is a town role blocking protection role (unless I'm incorrect). How does that clear sk? Assuming 3 scum, you have a 1/12 chance of picking the night kill. This sounds great you say, a night kill (two actually) happened and you jailed a guy. Apparently the guy didn't kill anybody right? While technically true he could in fact be part of the scum faction. Depending how it is setup (who is credited for the kill, godfather or just one person submits it)

SK could be one of the other two scums who didn't submit the kill.

It doesn't clear sk at all.

I have to agree with panzer on this one, hip's claim wasn't well thought out at all, but I'm inclined to believe it. I don't see scum willfully giving out fake information like that, too much could go wrong. Its way too easy to get caught in a lie with fake results.

@kal, scum reads at this point? and What do you think of hip's claim?

[CooLskins]

Reads part two

Section 2, the rest of d-1...

Also, things in bold and in larger type are meant to be answer by the people that they are directed to. So if you aren't going to read all of it just scan it for your quotes and the associated questions.

Well to answer your question. No, I am against it. I hate the idea of lynching some one(if the RVS is still on) and it always end up town and the person always seems town but other people some how think they are suspicious, I always think they are town. But some reason they think the person is scum :/ That is why, on most of the games, I don't vote on the first day, it is way easer to find scum on the second day, looking back on what people have said and all. That is my style, waiting for information to pass by then go at it, not try to strive for it when I know I won't able to get it. I dont give a flying shit if other people vote for other people, that is fine by me, it gives me a chance to see why and what was the consequences in the action they had. I just don't want people to say that I am scum cause I don't vote and all. But for some reason they do.

Does that answer some of it?? If not Tell my what else I need to explain further

So you're willing to just sit back and let a townie get lynched on day 1? You're not even going to try to find scum? T

hat may not be inherently scummy

, but it sure ain't pro-town.

This just got my attention right off the bat. Getting townies lynched is the essence of playing scum. Could this be a "theory point" to justify later actions? Probably not, but I still find it interesting that Kool doesn't think lynching townies is scummy.

Btw. This may seen weird if you haven't played much but I've decided that I'm not even going to bother with scum hunting. Today is town hunting day.

Town hunting ftw! First time he mentions town hunting. But one thing that strikes me as odd is he says I'm not even going to bother with scum hunting. I think town hunting can be very useful, but only in combination with scum hunting...

Actually no. Even if I was scum Elfin would be town. Take a look at Elfin's iso. Especially look at the stuff just before I unvoted. Look at it with the mindset of he is a confirmed town. You should be able to then see the motivations which is what separates town from scum. He has town motivations thus he is town.

That is completely independent of my alignment.

this has turned into a pseud espy iso as of late, but he makes a good point here that is central in my personally town read of elfin. Reading noob in my opinion is all about motivation (bub has drilled me over and over again about this, and its actually helping me in some other games, thanks bub). Elfin an obvious town motivation for his posting back in early day one, whilst kool doesn't. That is my main reason for suspecting kool; He doesn't have a town motivation for his posts.

Or he could be scum WIFOMing you into believing newbtown. If you want to "confirm town" on anyone else, it should be NeEvil or Kalofer.

Divulging into wifom isn't good. SK has had a tendency to bring it up a lot later in the game as well.

Why so concerned with it?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Esp
Prove just how town you are.

Did we just enter the stupid vote stage? Anyway, its not pro-town to vote for someone to make them prove to you that they are town. Your votes should always be on the most scummy people.

Espeonage is also a liability to the town, saying that he's not even going to scum hunt today. He's going to town hunt. Great, it's not like the mafia are trying to look like town. If you look for town attributes, you're going to find them in everyone. If you look for the tiny slip-ups that make people scum, you're doing more good for the town. Also, it makes me uncomfortable that you claimed that The Kool was the next person that needed to justify themselves, without any real reason why. Explain why you think The Kool is scummy, please.

Exactly what I'm think at this point in my re-read. espy seems to be shouting out a lot of reads, but nothing is ever explained...

@espy, why didn't you explain your votes on kool and elfin better?

What's wrong with liking bandwagons? What's wrong with espeonage town hunting? And my explanation is that the kool seems like a good place to start with. I agree with espy's strategy so far and as far as I'm concerned we're not fully out of RVS yet, sure people are voting based on "reasons" but the majority of those are for a person who I am fairly certain is newbtown.

Blatant espy defense. Why do you feel like you need to defend anybody? I don't see town motivation for anybody to defend somebody else. I never had and I most likely never will.

context

ninja'd and I didn't want to put some on my above post...

Okay, that makes more sense. I was confused a bit there.

People keep going back and reading the thread, huh? Man, I might do that, but I don't have the dedication or the time. So, unfortunately, as much as I hate to say it,

I often rely on other peoples' evidence and theories

, and use those to formulate my own (note that I do not just bw along with their theories).

So you admit to being a sheep? And that you are easily manipulated by popular opinion? So you are admitting to a lack of independent judgment? This reads as going with the flow to me.

and actual post.

Hydraguy: I think you should read the part after the bold. It contradicts you. Ooh, I feel like Phoenix Wright.
Quinn, did you mean Kalofer?
Hydra: I've never actually used meta before. As for Elf, like I said not much to go on. That's why I requested stuff from his old site.

Again a defense of kool. Why do people feel like they have to defend other people?

@SK, why defend kool? As a matter of fact why defend anybody but yourself?

Ok that's twice you've said I'm scum, mind explaining why?

I've explained plenty.

NeEvil is also scum. Yay metas

Epic proof in a bit.
But I've already made up my mind... l2r?

What is wrong with this? How bout everything? Moving on now...

Sorry guys; I don't tend to get on over the weekends.

kks.

1. Do you prefer playing as Mafia/Town/3rd Party?
2. How often do you usually post?
3. What is your timezone?
4. What is your stance on gut reads?
5. Can I expect WoTs from you?

1. Town, so far; this is only my fourth game; the others have been newbies.
2. Couple of times a day during the week; rarely if at all on weekends.
3. AEST; GMT+10.
4. I don't particularly want to hear about them; use them to get a feel for the game, then make a case based on evidence.
5. I'll try to avoid it, but you'll probably get posts of quotes with responses from me.

Seeing as I have nothing else to do I am just going to follow espeonage
UNVOTE:
VOTE: The Kool

Or not.
VOTE: Kalofer

Contradictions are a big deal, but that particular one was excusable because elf is IMO newbtown. Unless, of course, you want to go ahead with the no mercy policy and lynch him for that which would be fine since he did contradict himself and that is scummy but I believe that if you are to lynch him he'll flip town.

I don't like this post. Elf may be a newb, but why clear him as newb

town

. At best, it's a null tell. You're blowing things out of proportion with the 'no mercy policy lynch' line. You also seem awful sure that Elf is town in this post. I don't like the way you seem to be copying straight from Espeonage.

yay sp posted! yay, and he says... nothing. Sorry guys but we will have to wait a bit for the replacement to make a good read on this lurky fellow.
but wait, this is hip's slot, ohh....

Elf, based on the one game from on-site, I'd call scum. But I'm going to read the other site before jumping to conclusions.

-Sweat drops-

I know Dx i can't help it

Why care about looking town?

A wagon, in this sense, being a general agreement to lynch the same person? Everyone may have differeing opinions on who is scummier, but as long as most of us can agree that one person is scum enough to lynch, then

we can turn away from our primary targets

for a bit and actually lynch someone.

Something is wrong with this, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe its the part where he says "we can turn away from our primary targets and lynch town"... No town motivation for that post, appeal for a

nonspecific

lynch as well.

Kalofer, sheeping is not pro-town. Declaring that you are gonna lay low is not a town thing to do. Not voting on the first day isn't a town thing to do. Voting someone with a vote while professing anti-bandwagon views is not a town thing to do. You see openness and honesty, I see ducking and hiding and contradictions.

After reading this post it came to me that I was reading LC as town at this point. All of his posts appear to have content in them and make generally good points. I'm going to put him up as leaning town (but still close to neutral).

If you're so sure he's town, then you should be defending him and NOT be voting him.

Wrong, just plain wrong. You shouldn't spend your time and enerygy defending a town read if you have a scum read in your sights. Always focus on scum hunting (ortownhuntingfuckyoutooespy).

Unvote; Vote: Kalofer

Of course I told you to change your vote just to see if you would.

remove anything I said about lc being town, he goes back to net after this post. Stupid gambit, just a face into desk moment for me.

so basically, once day 2 starts it will be easier to pick out the scum.

Wish it worked like that.

has anything truer been said?

Huh?? O.o im confused now

I am going to throw this in here simply because this is what elfin mainly posts. I'm confused don't lynch me plox. Its more aggravating then anything else, take it however you see it on this one...

Are you still confused?

[@kool]Who do you think is scum. Lay one name down.

There are a few people I think could be scum, have some things for them and some against, but I'm gonna have to mostly go with cloudocean, for being really quiet in the background.

This show a hesitence in kool to implicate anybody. Even though he does throw down a name, he still isn't completely sold on anybody. He has gone back and forth and never really had a stance on anyone person.

Very nice, panzer's first post... 10 pages in to be exact...

Thoughts from reading the game.
The Kool is scum. Every post he makes strengthens my scumread on him. I can take any of his posts, point at how he is just posting for the sake of it, and not to hunt scum. Many of his posts are scummy as well.
LordChronos is so town my head hurts.
Elfin does not impress, and while he seems to be very new, I'm not reading him as scum.
SleepyKrew is probably Kool's scumbuddy. cloudocean is likely the third scum.
Everyone else is floating around in the middle somewhere.

Espeonage, in 103 you list three people as scum, why did you vote Elfin over the other two?

Unvote, vote The Kool

There is no way anyone can still be clinging to an Elfin vote and think it's a good idea. Those voting him need to post a very compelling case, or move on. I'll be posting a case on The Kool shortly (though Espeonage highlighted the main point, how The Kool has no interest in posting anything relevant).

I agree with this, but I'm thinking that

Vote:SleepyKrew

is the better play. Overaggressive and pounding on Elfen, who is obviously town and confused, just makes him seem like he is trying to grab an easy lynch here.

I also like LordChronos as scum over cloudocean, but I wouldn't be opposed to either.

Agressivism isn't a scum tell. In fact the opposite is. Hammering (by talking and constantly probing) is how you brake somebody down and force a slip. Why do you think cops sometimes spend 8-12 hours questioning a guy to get a confession? Because it goddamn works that's why.

Elfin, you should let the people I directed those points to respond first. If they are scum, and someone responds first, you can help them out. I will answer your questions after they do/don't respond.

heh, good example of why defending is bad, among other reasons...

Who is this "Skinny"?
Also, I'm willing to make a deal. We lynch Kal. Then, if I'm not NKed, we lynch me. Good?

I hate silly deals like this. It just encourages people to lynch somebody.

Now that defense is out of the way, I am finding Kal scummy right now. Since I suck at note-taking and presenting lists, I'll just try to name a few things I find scummy...

Mostly because of his whimsical voting for me back there for no reason whatsoever. The flimsy non-reason he gave wasn't even a valid one. Also his liking of bandwagons, in the scummy sense. Also his read on Elfen as newbtown, with no evidence to differentiate between that and clever mafia.

Also because I desire for there to be a lynch soon.

This is and isn't a bandwagon. I have indeed presented reasoning above, which makes it, at least, less scummy than Kal's bandwagoning. He has presented some redeeming logic, but anyone can be logical, even mafia. I may go read through a few more people, but for now, I'll vote for him.

We have sooo much time to make up our minds. Why should we lynch soon when we can wait a bit to make a better read? You aren't suggesting that we quick lynch day 1 are you? And why is lynching now better for the town then lynching later?

Right now I'm fully convinced that kool should be today's lynch. He also never seemed to defend (at least to my satisfaction) his sheeping and going with the flow.

In other news, I need to really arse my hydra partner to post more.

not to quote myself but I still have the exact same reactions to that kool post...

Yay, thank you, my head hurts less now.

As for the 'posting just to post', that is precisely what it is. It's saying 'I'm still here, no need to poke me, I just don't have anything new to contribute.' I post so I won't be considered absent.

And for now, off for the rest of the day. Time to give my brain a break, draw some stuff, and come back to tackle this with a fresh mind.

I'm horrified that I missed this before. This is just friggin' silly. So yah, you don't want to post content, we get that already. there is literly no town motivation for the above post period.

Guys, we can go for the newb [kool] next. Let's just get this guy already <.<

anybody else for a kool/sk scumteam?

Okay, The Kool. Here's what it comes down to. I was asked why I find you so pro-town, so I went back and read your ISO. You're playing really scummy, and I honestly can't blame people for finding you suspicious. However, I don't want to waste today's lynch on someone I believe so strongly to be pro-town. I want you to claim. I suspect that you've been breadcrumbing, and that's the only reason I have for finding you pro-town. If you're a PR, claim now so we don't lose a townie today and another tonight.

This is how the scum lynched quinster on day-1.

And this looks like a good place to stop (page 13). I'm going to be out for a bit and then come back and do some more...

reads, kool, kal (I didn't have much on him but his posts lack something, and that something tends to be the townish flare that townies tend to have.), and sk are scum at this point.

LC on th eother hand is hard for me to place. I would say a leaning town (despite what I said early) would be appropriate here.

Panzer at this point has made one bad post and the res are okay...

Espy is obv town, and don't even try to convince me other wise.

eh, hip's slot is lurktastic.

and that's about it for now.

[CooLskins]

not to polute my reads for iso purposes...

No, im not setting up a vig, idiot. Don't assume

Im the jailkeeper. I jailkept sleepykrew, and the kill still went through...

See how i had to think about it now?

Now we go for panzer.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Panzer

okay, so you claim jail keeper. A jail keeper is a town role blocking protection role (unless I'm incorrect). How does that clear sk? Assuming 3 scum, you have a 1/12 chance of picking the night kill. This sounds great you say, a night kill (two actually) happened and you jailed a guy. Apparently the guy didn't kill anybody right? While technically true he could in fact be part of the scum faction. Depending how it is setup (who is credited for the kill, godfather or just one person submits it)

SK could be one of the other two scums who didn't submit the kill.

It doesn't clear sk at all.

I have to agree with panzer on this one, hip's claim wasn't well thought out at all, but I'm inclined to believe it. I don't see scum willfully giving out fake information like that, too much could go wrong. Its way too easy to get caught in a lie with fake results.

@kal, scum reads at this point? and What do you think of hip's claim?

good job with actually reading my posts..

Yah, it was badly worded but all I'm saying is that your jail keep doesn't clear sk at all.

[CooLskins]

wait, you see a problem with defending people? So you're fine with lynching a townie, so that you dont have to defend them? We work as a cohesive unit. I wouln't be surprised if the hydra is scum, maybe? Posts like that don't seem townie to me. Eh just a hunch


It means he has a lower chance of being scum. I highly doubt there are 3 killing roles in this game. It doesnt clear him, but it lowers the chances

Did I say I wanted to lynch a townie? No I said that defending other people isn't pro town. This is especially true in the early game when you have no real reads. From what I read so far today (pages 5-13) people were defending each other right and left when they really had no basis for their town reads. It is one thing to say "I don't like that particular lynch because of x" and another to say, "X can't possibly be scum because he is so obv town for these reasons." One is arguing that their are better lynches out their (my scum reads) the other is arguing that a player is town...

Now that was probably poorly worded so let me explain farther.

Pressure is always good. Putting somebody under pressure is always a good thing. The town always gets information out of it (the game is in fact the uninformed minority verses the informed minority). Somebody else defending another player lessens that pressure and hurts the town. It also allows for the person being questioned to say "ohh yeah, exactly what he said". That doesn't give the town any information does it? It doesn't even give the town a hint of a motive. It is also a way for scum buddies to help each other from getting lynched.

Lets take this example.

A noob scum player comes into a game and makes a bad post. Somebody questions him about it and he answer poorly. The same person attacks him on his answers. The noob's scum bud comes in and answer for him and defends his actions. Noob says, "he hit the nail on the head lets go home".

Put simply you should never need to defend another player. You should be persuade the town to your specific scum suspect and have them lynch him. You should use all of your energy to get the people you think are scum lynched under all circumstances PERIOD. Defending people simply distract you and the town from that goal.

from the wiki:
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... em_Lynched
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... _Maneuvers
and if it can be considered valid:
http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... _Manifesto

All of these suggest that attacking your target is the best approach for town. Now enough about theory and off to reading.

[CooLskins]

^fair enough.

I'll get to kool's questions later on when I have done some more reading. I think I'm around page 17 or so now. I was going to do more yesterday but a "general error" popped up and I couldn't load an MS web page.

[CooLskins]

part3

I think they two scummiest people here are Kal and Sleepy to be honest with you. Elfen is confirmed town. I think Kool is confirmed scum but at this point I think we can save him for the second lynch if we catch his buddy.

Sleepy seems to be defending Kool(could be his buddy), while Kal is obviously distancing. Not sure which side i want to pick in the end, but I do want a claim

Vote:Kalofer

I'm distancing orrrrrr I'm town and voting for someone who I think is scum, why are you preferring the former over the latter?
As to the claim I'm a VT.

kal claims vt at l-3. Sorta weird because his wagon didn't have the support to lynch him.

why would it matter whether I claim at L-1, 2, 3 or whatever?

Justification for early claim. A simple answer would be that you would be denying information to scum.

@Kalofer
Accepting and admitting is defensive, you say? Defensiveness is scummy, you say? Well, I'm not out to change your opinions, just to get scum (like you)

killed

! If we don't do it today,

then I'll do it tonight

!

kinda nit pciky here, but killed =/= to lynch. But other then that I see this as a soft vig claim, or an sk slip.

I meant tonight as in past sundown, because I think we'll get enough people on the wagon by then.

ohh, yeah I meant in real time, gotcha not buying it.

I never said defensiveness is scummy by itself, though I believe many people here think so. I was just pointing out that admittance and acceptance can be a type of defense, what I find most scummy about kool is his need to excuse his vote and how he sneakily joined the two biggest wagons.
Btw you didn't answer my question, is the deal still on?

Wow, I didn't know we were talking about how defending someone was scummy back in the 300's. But his point about kool is esentially correct. He always is on the biggest wagon including quin's lynch wagon.

SK is vig. (lols at pun)

Ok that means DOC ON SK tonight. SK you should kill Kool tonight.

Now we can decide on a lynch. There have been more than enough claims. Kal and Elfin are now 10s and I will seriously consider stopping playing mafia if either are scum.

directing power roles, and not considering the possibility of sk being in fact the sk.

Oh btw if anyone's interested these are my reads:

1) Charter - town, maybe he's going slightly overboard with trying to lynch SK but he is logical and consistent and his motivations seem town.

2) Elfen - town, seems consistent with his newbiness at the very least. And although he's not doing very much I see no reason not to believe his "OMG it's making my head explode!" excuse. And at least he hasn't been silently creeping onto wagons like kool.

3) CoolSkins - town, has been asking really good questions, really good cases and brought up really good points.

4) LordChronos - town, consistent and seems town motivated, could be scum lying low and posting at opportune moments to try and look like town, but I wouldn't bet on it.

5) Cloudocean - null/town, doesn't say much (townie efficiency or scum laying low), but is consistent and seems to have town motivations.

6) The Kool - scum, plays the newb card, fair enough. But actions before that and need to justify vote for me as "not just simple bandwagoning" without providing adequate reasons looks scummy.

7) Supreme Overlord - null/scum, asks unimportant questions to make himself look like he's town and trying to scumhunt. Seems like you're asking me questions to try and understand my logic but I'm starting to think you're purposely misunderstanding it. Enough people think I'm scum already, those who aren't voting for me aren't because they think other people are scummier, you are spending the majority of your time trying to make me look even scummier instead of actually scumhunting.

8) SleepyKrew - null, could be an overly aggressive townie, could be overly aggressive scum trying to look like an overly aggressive townie, could be vig.

9) Quinnster - null/scum, his defense could be a result of scum quickly giving in to pressure after realising what he did was wrong, or town honestly saying he's sorry after realising what he did was wrong. Still, his random conviction that kool was town along with the rolefishing are scummy enough moves by themselves.

10) Espeonage - null, too secretive.

11) Panzerjager - null, isn't really being scummy but seems too naive to be definite town to me.

very interesting post from kal after not much happned.

have any of your reads changed from this post? If yes, why.

why would it matter whether I claim at L-1, 2, 3 or whatever?

Answer: Because lets say you were actually a power role. Lets say a doctor for example. You claim at l-3. People aren't really committed to your wagon (as is right now) and we go off and lynch some other guy. The scum (knowing that you are town) nk you and we lose the doc over nothing. If, however, you claimed at l-1 you wouldn't have given the scum the information as early as you would have when you claimed at l-3. And the town is already sorta going to lynch you so if you don't get lynched today the scum might rationalize that you are dead meat and not nk you to wifom the town.

If I was a town PR I would have thought twice before claiming early, but I'm not a town PR and all I've told scum now is that I'm a VT, as if they suspected a town PR of playing so recklessly or as if they were actually planning on NKing me if I somehow survived past day 1.

flawed argument. You claiming vt takes one potential pr weilding townie off the table. changing the scum pr hit chance form about a 1/9 to a 1/8, which is significant.

If other people came up with the same reasons, that's not my fault. Do I need new ones?

If you believe someone is down, DON'T lynch them. Because if you are right, you just lynched a townie, and that is never good for town. You try to prevent townie lynches.

An inability to make up new reasons show that you are content to lynch whoever is the largest wagon. It simply shows a lack of scumhunting and it is very anti-town. You can agree with other people reasons, but you need to have your own reasons as well, or atleast prove the other people's reasons to yourself.

Now we have the kool/kal back and forth. I'm tempted to agree with bub on this one,

I thought that slot was scum from the beginning, and charter's actions aren't helping. He's one of the four I'm willing to lynch.

Interesting suspicion of charter. One of the few people to suspect him much. Possible mafia kill setup, going to come back with a vig claim if he came under pressure. Tat didn't work out that well with a hip jail keeper claim.

I think Charter is the townest person here, so you're not gonna have my support on a charter wagon. At this point, a charter wagon would be anti town, we have three main suspects that stand above and beyond anyone else, and it's not even that close. They all will give substantial info about each other(and others) when they die. Trying to lynch anyone else right now is just flat non-productive. That's why I've entirely laid off you because I feel getting someone that isn't Kal, Kool, or Quinn is just plain wrong.

Would you still please read my exchange with him before he went V/LA? Also, what makes him the towniest? It's say hydraguy is the town leader and will be VERY sad/angry if he/they turn(s) out scum. Grammar with a hydra is so difficult

As for me, the lynches I'm okay with (in order) are:
1. Kalofer
2. charter
3. Espeonage
4. Elfen

Why has this scum list changed? other then the obvious charter death.

I'd be willing to bet that Quinnster replaced out because he was caught scum, this happens quite often. Sorry earworm, but your predecessor has screwed you. Earworm can't answer for things that quinnster's done and the replacement has effectively left us in a situation where the correct play is to lynch earworm.

@Elfen, also curious why you copied all of kalofer's reads, and why am I neutral "plain and simple"

First one to bring up a "game" reason for quinster to replace out.

@ Kal. From texas?? Why

@Pan, simple, you have not gave me anything to count you to scum lean.

Texas? Do you know shotty and gandy?

OK, I've finished reading. I can't defend Quinnster's actions, so I won't. They were terrible and nothing I can say can make them look better.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kool
He's my number one choice for scum right now.

Reasons:
I really,

really

don't like Post #50. It reads like a maf that's trying to stay low and appease the town at large, while also being opportunistic. Also, the fact that he posts 3 times in between this post and the post of Elfen's in question is highly suspicious.

He has consistently provided no information to the town about his reads. At least people like Espeonage are townhunting. Kool is doing no scum or townhunting. Sure he might say he is but if you look at the very few reads he has, he's just regurgitating other people's ideas completely. Example: Post 274 is pretty much the same as Supreme Overlord's Post #201. Basically he's done a lot of nothing the whole game.

An interesting read from a confirmed town player. In fact I noticed the exact same thing about kool, he doesn't do much except be on the lynch wagon.

This is a good stopping point for now, I will be back after the french open has finished to do more.

[CooLskins]

This is Bub here. One thing about Hiplop's claim is that even though it does not clear SK from being scum, it does clear him from being SK (barring something to the tune of a vig and SK killing on alternating nights). I found him to be more likely scum than SK to begin with in anyway. And I belive Hiplop's claim as his actions make sense for somebody who got his result and begins to think about it. His claim was ill-timed and poorly executed, but pro-town in its intentions. I don't like panzer's hard push on him. It reads to me as scum trying to remove a power role in the day game.

Like before, I don't think Kal and Kool are scumbuds, though Kal could still be the SK (while SK himself cannot). Right now, my scumteam is Kool/SK/Panzer in roughly that order, and one of Cloud/Kal is probably the SK if there is one. That's all I've got right now.

-Bub

[CooLskins]

^at l-2? Claim fisher?

-CooLDoG

[CooLskins]

how many votes are on him now?? Also this note to the mod, i sent it to another game so don't suspect things when i replace out. :/ sorry guys.

To Mod: Due to i snuck out of the house at 3 in the morning for an insomnia run to get my self tired(didnt work, stayed up all night) I may be sevearly grounded due to the cops came and told my grandam since it was past curfew. So i may be grounded one week+ SO you may want to call a replacement

@elf, the only way they can book you for that (barring local laws, or trespassing on private property) is if you were in a publicly owned place, like a park for example. Otherwise I don't see why they can't book everybody who drives a car through town at 3 o'clock when bars close (which they don't). Your dad is smarter then he lets on to.

Co, claim or Hip or I will hammer. I would have preferred a kool or panzer lynch, but this is the best we can get apparently. Its still not a bad lynch, co ha been lurking since the start of the game.

-CooLDoG

[CooLskins]

Also to note, here where I live cops are ether really nice, or just want to get home and watch the game. I have stories (from me and my friends) that will make you say, "what???". But this is diverging into off topic territory.

The reason why I don't particularly like this lynch is the fact that after the flip we won't have much to go off of. CO had literally no connections to anybody else. And he never had good reads.

[CooLskins]

I agree with my other head that CO isn't the best lynch for today. Kool, SK, and Panzer have all been scummier. However, CO is a good candidate for being the SK, so we may be able to eliminate a night kill.

-Bub

[CooLskins]

It is in fact mylo. We can still no lynch at this point.

I'm going to read panzer and hip in iso before I make a decision. Just be very careful with your votes.

[CooLskins]

^yes, but is that the most helpful move for the town? Ether panazer or hip is not telling the truth. This game does not have 2 jail keepers, a watcher, and a tracker in it. So if we no lynched then scum would just kill another townie and we would be left right where we are now. No lynching would just prolong our decision to one more day. And give us less leeway with our votes. No lynching is not the right move.

For some reason I am more inclined to believe panzers claim. Hip's claim was odd, especially since he was never sure of what his result meant (wasn't think very much on what his claim was). On the other hand it doesn't seem likely that scum would come out and fake claim a semi obscure role. Naturally hip could possibly just be the scum role blocker in which case the claim is just a town version of that.

I want to be careful with my vote, and thus I'm going to talk to bub before I vote at all.

@panzer any bread crumb for that claim?

-CooLDoG

[CooLskins]

I don't know about Panzer's claim. It seems odd that he would come strait out of the night and suddenly claim. But since this is MYLO, I want to get a mass claim going. Right now, out of the eight people that we have, four have already claimed (Kal and SK as VT, Hip and Panzer as Jailkeeper). Only Chronos, Kool, Elfen, and ourselves have not yet claimed. We're going to do this popcorn style.

The idea is this, a person claims and then names another person, who then claims and names yet another person. This goes until everybody has claimed, with the idea being that the scummiest people go first, so the scum have less information to go off of to base their claim. Since the consensus scummiest person seems to be Kool, he should go first. Kool, claim, and then name the next scummiest person who hasn't claimed yet.

-bub

[CooLskins]

While I'm waiting for Kool to claim, I'm going to go back and re-read from when Hiplop did his first wierd claim and see if Panzer's reactions are consistent with his claim.

[CooLskins]

So if hip is lieing... then there could be a Hip/SK team up? since if he ends up lieing, and trys to cover for SK with all this... then who knows :/

Yes, that would be correct. But we can't really find that out unless we lynch one. But if we lynch somebody and they flip town then we lose the game. Basically we can lynch today and win or lose the game, or we can no lynch and hope that hip's/panzer's jk blocks the scum kill and then we lynch them the next day. However, the later is flawed because both hip and confirmed town espy have said that they have been role-blocked. This means that the scum will role block the person that they know is the real jk (ether panzer or hip).

So in essence right now we have a 50/50 on our hands. Both hip and panzer can't be town. One of them is scum. Now is the time that we go back and dig up voting records and the claims that both have made in order to make an informed decision and tip the odds on that 50/50.


Bub has a draft saved here that has some reads that aren't finished yet, so expect those from him later. And I don't want to post something that he already has covered (he does have something already covered that I wanted to post) or that he wants to cover.
-CooLDoG

[CooLskins]

@mod
Can a roleblocker block the scum kill?
How does RB vs. RB work for you?

Uhhh, most likely nothing would happen. Role blocking a role blocker who role blocks a role blocker = nothing. They are mutually exclusive and the result does nothing noticeable...

@hip, out of interest would you quote the places where panzer mis-reped you? And why did it take you so long to claim your role? I don't see a town motivation for dragging your feet

for so long

over it. It really did distract the town.

[CooLskins]

Some mods go with whoever sent it first.

Question, does who sent it first matter? Two role blockers rbing the same targeting t= to both targeting a vt. Now it would make a difference if one was a jail keeper and that person got targeted or a kill. Think before you post next time.

I didn't want to full claim, but people kept asking questions. I didn't want to have to claim, but a wagon on me was obviously starting because I explained myself poorly, so i had to.

So in basic you full claimed just to save your own skin. And you soft claimed to save somebody else's skin, correct?

@SK, so who's claim do you like best? Hip's or Panzer's?

@Kal, same as above.

[CooLskins]

woah woah woah, what we're doing a mass role claim?? Was this decided on?? Does everyone agree with doing this cause I havent read anything about a mas claim yet??

But if we are, of well :/

Claim: VT, no power roles

It's kind of irrelevant now, since CooLskins is the only one who hasn't claimed. I think.

that is incorrect, we claimed VT.

@Hip, in your opinion is defending someone else valid?

[CooLskins]

dont you guys find it suspicious, that kool voted right after Panzer? in lylo, he immediatly voted, both of them. Unless they're masons (which the clearly aren't) they couldnt have possibly come up with a coherent idea. I cant believe you guys are belieivng such obvious scummery

Defending a likely townie, is somethng that all townies should try to do, yes.

Defending one of your town reads is almost never townish. The only possible exception is lylo. I have yet to see a time when defending a townie by claiming a power role (soft or full) is beneficial to the town. Link me to a game where it has and prove me wrong.

The only thing that your defending SK did was let the scum know that you had a power role (this is naturally assuming that you are town), and that sk wasn't the sk. It did nothing but give scum information. Actually at this point an sk flip would have been tones better then that lurker we lynched yesterday.

Preemptive response: Yes, I think defending other people is scummy.

[CooLskins]

I think what CooLDoG was saying, was that we would have gained much more information from an SK flip rather than what we got. CO had virtually no connects to anybody, and while he was the SK, his lynch didn't get as any closer to finding scum at all.

At any rate, the issue we have right now is either Panzer or hip. We have confirmed scum in one of them. While we could go anywhere else, I don't think we'd have as good a shot as 50%+. For that reason, I've re-read Panzer response to hip's claim, to see if it is consistent with him being a jailer. After Hip posted his claim that SK didn't have a killing role, Panzer was on him, and then off him.

Sudden epiphany:I'd be willing to bet Hipplop is lying, Seems weird that he would vote Sleepy after getting a result on him with gunsmith. Also SK's are generally considered not to have guns so He wouldn't sense the SK(they carry knives in most games here)

He seems to weakly think that Hiplop is lying (if he strongly felt that way, he would have voted for him). This is interesting, because at this point it is assumed that Hip is a gunsmith. This could be town-panzer saying "Hmmm, could there really be a watcher, tracker, gunsmith, Jailer, and three scum in a 13 player game?" while also make a point about hiplop's voting, which brings further questions to his claim. He's on his case for a few more posts and then he drops him when the hoopla dies down a little.

However he gets back onto hip later for getting onto the Kool wagon too fast. After that, Hiplop claimes jailkeeper, and Panzer responds with this:

Bullshit

Vote:Hiplop

And then later:

No, You can't mistake what he is claiming to have mistook. Every vote on someone that is voting on you isn't OMGUS

Unless the Mod took some serious liberties with the way the role PM was written(or the English language), there is no way you could have missed the fact that Jailkeeping someone roleblocks them. Also, that's essentially the main way to play jailkeeper, is use it as an RB role.

The actions and the claim do not add up. Either this is a lying scum or a lying SK. But one way or another, Hiplop is not a jailkeeper.

I view both of these as strong evidence that Panzer is telling the truth. You would expect him to instantly get onto Hip, like a switch had been flipped, once Hip claimed jailkeeper. The assertation that he wasn't the jailkeeper was strong, and IMO, not supported by the evidence he presented. This leads me to belive that he was the jailer himself.

He keeps on pushing hard on hip, insisting that he's scum. However, he relents a little when he sees the hiplop wagon going nowhere and gets onto the CO wagon. Overall, I see a generally consistent view from Panzer, and exactly what I would expect from the real town jailkeeper in that circumstance. When hiplop claims jailer, Panzer flips and starts attacking him all out like never before. While he does relent in the end, I feel like this was after he realized that the wagon wasn't going anywhere and he consents to a CO lynch. After that, he knows he's got to get hiplop lynched because he knows that hip is scum (and it's MYLO) so he comes out and counter-claims.

This is much better than Hiplop's kind of wishy-washy claim. Looking back, it looks more like a botched attempt to either protect a possible scumbud (SK) or gain some town cred. Either way, Hip is scum.

vote: Hiplop

Panzer claim is much more consistent and believable than hip's, thus making hip the liar (and the scum).

I also really don't like this most recent post by Hip.

nice find chronos. Explain why keeping the SK alive is a good thing Coolskins. now

This doesn't add anything the discussion. All it serves to do is to try and deflect attention away from himself. This is trademark caught scum.

[CooLskins]

Okay, lets clear up the whole sk deal. In adition to having more information we would also have a confirmed townie going into lylo.
This may take some time, but I'm going to show you guys the different situations we can come into depending on a sleepy lynch, or a CO lynch.
This might also be a little bit confusing, but it is essential. Basically this is a tree that shows what actions the town scum and sk can do (Assumptions are: scum will not nk themselves, the town doesn't have a doc, the SK will not kill himself, and that SK cross kill by scum is very unlikely [because co was a lurker])

Sit1:
Day2, 7/3
lynch: Sleepy. (6/3)
Flip: Town
SK kill: town
Mafia kill: town
Day 3,
5/3 with 1 confirmed town so essentially that's a 4/3, with connections, and with a JK result.
Now with this info we have to play a little bit farther to see what the sk will do (vote with town or with scum)
Lynch: town (who that would be I do not know)
Scum kill: town
SK kill: town
day 4,
2/3, resulting in an sk loss.

(go back to day 3)

Day3, 5/3
Lynch: town
SK kill: has to be scum or a loss will insue
scum kill: town
day 4
3/2
At this point we should have a buddy connect, like the panzer/kool one that we have now. So we should have a logical next lynch set-up. But lets go hypothetical
lynch: town
Sk kill: (again has to be scum or loss)
scum kill town (yes, I will go back and see what cross kills will look like)
day 5: 1/1/1 SK/scum win.

(go back to day 3)

Day 3 5/3 (sleepy has still flipped town, so in essence we lost the coin flip that we are going through right now)
lynch: scum (This should happen. A kool/panzer lynch would have had the most motivation back there and we know for sure that panzer would have flipped scum, and kool is heavily connected to him.)
Sk kill: town
Scum kill: town
day 4 3/2
lynch: will be connected scum
SK kill: (3 on 1. SK actually might no kill here. He has to hit scum in order to have a chance. [end up 1/1 draw, is that what he wants? Would the sk win in that circumstance? If yes, he would just kill away]) town
scum kill town, game over draw/sk win

(go back to day 3)

day3 5/3 (okay, this is getting a bit old, I will now cover the most probable outcome)
lynch: Scum (kool. He had the most support for a lynch and would have gotten my vote. He would flip scum because of the panzer connection)
1/3 chance of killing scum rb and getting a jk result.
sk kill: town (why not? He doesn't want a 3/1/1 does he?)
scum kill: town
day4 we are at a 3/2/1
lynch Scum (panzer, need I say more?)
50/50 on rb.
so now its a 3/1/1
SK: kill town
Scum kill town
1/1/1 - draw sk win

The only modification here would be if the sk killed scum. If he did it would turn into a 4/1/1. Then we would lynch the lurker, 3/1.

back to day 3

5/3
lynch: lurker (fucking stupid but it could happen) sk
scum kill: town
3/3 loss.

back to day

2

lynch: scum (sleepy)
scum kill: town
sk: kill town

we are now at a 5/2
day 3, 5/2
lynch: scum (hip is confirmed scum at this point)
5/1
50% chance we nail the role blocker. Actually its a bit closer to 100% but that another story.
SK kill: town
scum kill town
2/1/1
This would have been a very interesting situation. Scum actually have motivation to work with the town to avoid sk draw-win (2x cross kill would be very funny wouldn't it?). But the town have to lynch scum to avoid a loss (scum kill town, 1/1 draw, possible loss depending on mod). SO we would have a potential hold out from the two townies if they realized the situation. Get a no lynch and then scum have to kill the sk (at this point you are just throwing up your hands and hoping that scum hit sk and sk hits scum. Because otherwise you are going to run into a draw/loss)
correct lynch here is no lynch. Then you put your faith in the remaining scum to kill the sk. Then you have a 2/1 lylo.

My conclusion is as follows. IF we lynched sk instead of CO we would have had a hell of a lot more time to make reads and prepare for lylo. Its still essentially a coin flip (as we know it is right now. Hindsight works here because that is what my comment was made in), and it would have been a hell of a lot better going into lylo with only 1 scum instead of 3 (this is a pretty big assumption). But natuarlly killing the sk early will allow us a road to victory if we can lynch 3 scum in a row. All in all It would all still rest on a 50/50 coin flip (ether on sk/panzr/hip yeas due to the connections...). And arguably the town have a chance at winning here, and in most other cases (where no cross kills happen) the town draw-loses. But the fact remains we have to lynch 3 scum in a row on a basic 50/50.

mod, prod the shit out of kal

[CooLskins]

EBWOP i guess SK could be considered my buddy, but that was one event throughout the entire game, doesn't justify a buddy

actually it does. No sane scum would claim to save a vt. If sk flipped scum/you flip scum sk is 95% scum.

[CooLskins]

@hip, What is your proof (other then the counter claim and that you have to be right) that panzer, kool and, Cooldskins (what is the correct pronoun?) are scum. Build a case.