Open 307-Friends and Enemies Deadly Alliance-Town Wins!!

Snarky · Post Post #9 (isolation #0) » Tue May 17, 2011 4:21 pm

/confirm

Snarky · Post Post #21 (isolation #1) » Wed May 18, 2011 12:18 am

VOTE: SnakePlissKen

He knows why.

Snarky · Post Post #24 (isolation #2) » Wed May 18, 2011 1:28 am

Cause he's the only one i know in the player list.

Snarky · Post Post #26 (isolation #3) » Wed May 18, 2011 3:00 am

Oh no! you screwed the black and white party!!!

And yes I've got telepathic connections, that's why I know you're scum!! Nah just joking, the he knows why RVS joke is a classic

@DK: So you don't trust yourself? Then why would I trust you?

unvote
vote: DeityKabuto

Oh oh! wagon wagonny!!

@Spadille: What was the failure of your last game?

Snarky · Post Post #36 (isolation #4) » Wed May 18, 2011 5:05 am

Why so worried of a quicklynch, Parabollock? We're still on page 2, you know. Would be suicide for the three scum to blitz right now. What's your opinion on DK's selfvote?

Snarky · Post Post #40 (isolation #5) » Wed May 18, 2011 5:54 am

@Parabollock: If you think what DK did was a slayer gambit, who you think is scum on his wagon?

@Spadille: Why only a FoS?

Snarky · Post Post #43 (isolation #6) » Wed May 18, 2011 6:12 am

@ Spadille

Oh didn't see your question. And I don't quite understand it...

No my vote wasn't random, it was for the self-vote, and I think it is a legitimate reason to vote for for getting things rolling. Now the third part of the question could you reexplain it please?

Snarky · Post Post #50 (isolation #7) » Wed May 18, 2011 7:23 am

Spadille wrote:@Snarky.
You think? Aren't you the one who did it yourself?

Uuh... Wut?

And for the third question, yes I was happy to put a third vote on him because of self-voting. Wagon=pressure=discussion .

Snarky · Post Post #59 (isolation #8) » Wed May 18, 2011 9:56 am

@Low key: Let's get facts straight and clear:

1st quote: 1. Spad vote was random. Why in hell, if I was scum, would I have gotten nervous for that. I was seriously just joking. 2.Spad asked me a question, I answered. I wasn't justifying my vote, as I knew it was random crappy reasoning.

2nd quote: I failed to see DK's selfvote before. I thought it was just a normal random vote. (I failed to make the connection DK-DeityKabuto on my first read)

3rd quote: Ok, that's just wrong. PB feared a scum quicklynch. In order for that to happen, there needed three scum players to quickvote, that's all. That does not mean I think all the players on the wagon are town, but they have to be for a scum quicklynch to happen.

I like my vote where it now. DK still have not explained his self-vote, and his last post was just euhm... yeah.

Snarky · Post Post #88 (isolation #9) » Thu May 19, 2011 5:52 am

Hmm, after a quick reread, I have a null read on PB. I am interested however on what's going on around the wagon. First of all, I'd like some explanation from Low Key on his scum QT theory for proving PB is town. I tried to find how the post he pointed out clears PB and, no, I really don't see anything. Spadille is leading the wagon, but my gut tells me that, maybe because of the close-to-OMGUS vote that started the wagon, all this argument may be town-on-town or scum-on-scum. I don't like how pops has jumped on the wagon while only rewording past arguments against him. Don hasn't posted much content, but I find his vote on PB less odd for some reason than the one of pops.

For that I will

FOS: popsofctown

@DK: Who do you think is scum? Your last post didn't make much to make you appear townier. Trolling is not a good excuse.

@Low Key: In post 24, I answer Spadille's question as to why I voted for Snake. I said it was just kind of a greeting because I had already played with him. In post 25, Spadille seems to not have understand the he knows why part of my post, so I said in post 26 that it was just a classic joke. And seriously, for the rest, I don't see how joking equals nervousness, I was just trying to have fun.

@Spadille: For maybe the tenth time, yes I put the third vote on DK just because of self-voting and I'm happy having done so. I don't know what's the problem here, knowing that you put the fourth on him for the same reason. Mine was just less detailed than yours.

Snarky · Post Post #90 (isolation #10) » Thu May 19, 2011 6:06 am

No, I voted him because he self-voted. I hadn't realize he had self-voted in the posts before I voted, but the vote itself was for the self-vote (the I don't trust thing was just another way of saying it, I should have been clearer there.)

I agree with DK being a newb-scum.

Snarky · Post Post #92 (isolation #11) » Thu May 19, 2011 6:28 am

I don't lie and I am totally conscious of having said that. As I said, I failed to see DK's selfvote BEFORE voting him, but when I voted him, I WAS aware of his self-vote.

Snarky · Post Post #96 (isolation #12) » Thu May 19, 2011 8:49 am

^^ Too much OMGUS is obvious.

Snarky · Post Post #98 (isolation #13) » Thu May 19, 2011 8:57 am

Nope, I'm saying your cases are biaised.

Snarky · Post Post #127 (isolation #14) » Fri May 20, 2011 8:35 am

DeityKabuto wrote:I have come to my conclusion that Spadile, and Archaist appear the most scummy.

1. Spadile, you are over-thinking the situation. You guys clearly do not understand my method of scum-hunting.

2. Archaist, as I said, you were one of the last on my bandwagon, unlike the rest who are debating on it, you've only made one post and provided not much "Strong evidence.

Overall, I am getting a bit of a townie vibe from Spadile, but my inner "gut" feels bad that he is false-accusing me for being scum, makes me think that he is "scum" since Scum are supose to make Townies look bad.

Archaist is more scum than Spadile, following his scumbuddy Spadile into promoting my fail wagon.

But then again, I may have just caught all 3-4 scum, I can see Snarky as a scum, as his way of posting says a thing or few.

Snarky wrote:No, I voted him because he self-voted. I hadn't realize he had self-voted in the posts before I voted, but the vote itself was for the self-vote (the I don't trust thing was just another way of saying it, I should have been clearer there.)

I agree with DK being a newb-scum.

You agree? Form your OWN opinion, nub.

How you guys can see anything more than pure, blatant OMGUS in this post? How can you guys think DK is trying to get into the head of his attackers? Here's his case on Spadille:

1. He overthinks the situation. Because he voted you for a self-vote?
2. He does not understand his method of scumhunting.. What method of scumhunting?
3. His gut is telling him Spadille is scum because he attacks poor little townie DK. What can be more OMGUS than that?

Here's his case on Arch:
1.He was the last one on his wagon. It's a better reason than I usually thought at the beginning, because of the not so much strong evidence part, but it is still a very weak argument. Wagoning is not scummy per se.And why you only mention Archaist, when there was a last voter in PB's wagon too.

And to respond to the end of your post, if I agreed with Spadille, it's because I had formed my own opinion on you before

.

So please, stop saying he's trying to get in scum's head, and stop saying he makes funny posts, he's OMGUSing. It may not be a big scumtell, it may be a newbtell, but it still is something to consider, you can't just forgive him like that. My Fos is staying on pops, and let's add one to PB. I find the comments of MuffinMan of he makes funny jokes more genuine, even if clearly anti-town.

I think Spadille pushes this case too much in my opinion and I don't like it. For sure DK is acting very scummily, but I would not be happy to lynch him now. Why have you voted MuffinMan? I'm intrigued.

Snarky · Post Post #154 (isolation #15) » Sat May 21, 2011 9:00 am

[Low Key] wrote:

Accuses Pops for shameless bw. Possible Spad/Parab scum. Says Don vote for Parab is

less suspicious that Pops vote (?? +scum)
.

Post #88

From Post 88:

I don't like how pops has jumped on the wagon while only rewording past arguments against him. Don hasn't posted much content, but
I find his vote on PB less odd for some reason than the one of pops
. For that I will FOS: popsofctown

I don't like this post. DJ's vote on Parab was
horribad
whereas Pops has provided good and original sounding reasons for (she later changed her vote for good reasons too) suspecting Parab. Why would Snarky make a statement like this when it is obviously the opposite? It sounds like he is trying to cover for DJ here and I have no idea why he would do that when DJ looks so bad. I don't think he actually believes what he is saying here and coincidentally is trying to sling mud onto Pops.

[Low Key] wrote:

I think Spadille pushes this case too much
in my opinion
and I don't like it
. For sure DK is acting very scummily,
but I would not be happy to lynch him now
.
Why have you voted MuffinMan? I'm intrigued
.

...but now accusing Spad of doing exactly what he has done while fishing for an excuse to go elsewhere. The bolded is bizarre as he has pushed the case very hard himself and is voting DK at this point.

The big difference between my vote and Spad's is the following: my vote is there for pressure because I think DKs the scummiest player of all. However, I do not push for his lynch because there is too less evidence on him for that. I point out all the flaws of his reasoning to build out a case on him, by the same way pushing him to see if he would slip, but before I can build a case on him, I have no reason to push for his lynch. However, Spad's wants him to be lynched, and his vote is there to achieve that goal. See the difference?

When a past argument is reworded, it gives the impression the person doing it adds something new. It's an easy way for scum to camouflage a shameless bw. However, I liked how pops has adressed my concerns on this in post 93. Don didn't try to camouflage it's bw. At that time both were not so participative, so only the camouflage thing leaned my Fos towards pops. Today my reads have changed. I agree with you guys that I'm not clear enough with all these Foses, so I will make a proper post later to summarize my thoughts.

[Low Key] wrote:

@Spadille: For maybe the tenth time, yes I put the third vote on DK just because of self-voting and I'm happy having done so. I don't know what's the problem here,
knowing that you put the fourth on him for the same reason
. Mine was just less detailed than yours.

This also appears to be untrue. Not speaking for Spad or anything but he originally
led
the wagon for self-voting but
placed the 4th vote
for what he called "The Three OMGUS'es". So this sounds to me like Snarky is over-reaching with the defense of his actions as he has done before.

I was talking about Spad's vote on post 30.

[Low Key] wrote:

I agree with DK being a newb-scum.

Nope, I'm saying your cases are biaised.

Ok here he has settled into the DK tunnel...

So please, stop saying he's trying to get in scum's head, and stop saying he makes funny posts, he's OMGUSing. It may not be a big scumtell, it may be a newbtell, but it still is something to consider, you can't just forgive him like that. My Fos is staying on pops, and let's add one to PB. I find the comments of MuffinMan of he makes funny jokes more genuine, even if clearly anti-town.

...and refuses to leave...

Indeed, I am on DK's wagon. My vote is on the one I beleive to be scum.It may shift soon, however. I will actualize in my next post my view of DK, for he's less and less scummy since his mega-OMGUS post.

[Low Key] wrote:

I think Spadille pushes this case too much
in my opinion
and I don't like it
. For sure DK is acting very scummily,
but I would not be happy to lynch him now
.
Why have you voted MuffinMan? I'm intrigued
.

...but now accusing Spad of doing exactly what he has done while fishing for an excuse to go elsewhere. The bolded is bizarre as he has pushed the case very hard himself and is voting DK at this point.

The big difference between my vote and Spad's is the following: my vote is there for pressure because I think DKs the scummiest player of all. However, I do not push for his lynch because there is too less evidence on him for that. I point out all the flaws of his reasoning to build out a case on him, but before I can build a case on him, I have no reason to push for his lynch. However, Spad's wants him to be lynched, and his vote is there to achieve that goal. See the difference?

Will continue to respond to this later.

Snarky · Post Post #155 (isolation #16) » Sat May 21, 2011 9:35 am

Oops there is a problem in the first quote tag, only the first part is relevant

Snarky · Post Post #198 (isolation #17) » Sun May 22, 2011 4:48 am

(I'm still answering to Low Key's PBPA here

[Low Key] wrote:
* While not wanting to lynch DK and wanting to actually follow Spad in voting Muffin! (insincere voting and case fishing)

Totally false, I found his vote on Muffin fishy, for it was like "Oh yeah? you don't like my arguments for voting DK? Then I'll vote you". Since there was no other justification with the vote, I asked for clarifications.

Now I'm answering DK'S wall

DeityKabuto wrote:
Also Snarky, your vote is still on me, and your reasons for voting me are only as how I Self-voted.

But hasn't my Self-vote created more discussion than if I hadn't done?

It is also arguable that my without my Self-vote, this game would gone a bit slower than it is now.

But still, you have a vote on me, that means you still find me scummy, why is that?

You were the first on my wagon, are you so sure of me being scum?

I'm not voting you just because of the self-vote. I was voting you firstly because of that, then because of the OMGUS post, and majorly because of lack of scumhunting. Now this has changed a lot, you do scumhunt, but I still find stuff odd about you. will clarify all that when I'll post my thoughts on everyone.

Spadille wrote:
Yes, Snarky. I wanted DK lynched because I believe he's scum. Are you saying you voted him just to join the wagon?
Nope. You have said you believe he is scum too. So what is it really? Either it is a pressure vote or it is a vote to lynch. Choose one.

Don't be silly, for sure I needed to say I found him scum in order to pressure him. And I really THOUGHT he was the scummiest, but it was too early in the game to be SURE he was scum.

[Low Key] wrote:@Snarky: I hope you don't mind me asking, but is English your first language?

No it isn't. How have you guessed? Am I that much hard to read?

I hope not having forgotten anything. Now it's enough for defense. I will post my thoughts on everyone the soonest I can, surely tuesday.

Snarky · Post Post #229 (isolation #18) » Sun May 22, 2011 9:57 am

Quick notes on every player.

Low Key: can't get anything but a town read on him. I don't necessarily agree with him on using the vig on day 1. We should use this tactic on day 2 IMO, for I think that way we'd have more information from the kill. Leans town

Archaist: I get a good town vibe from his analyses. neutral to town.

cjdrum: I'm not a fan of his posts. His first wall had nothing really new in it, and his first vote on Spadille didn't really seemed convinced. I have a odd feeling about his "based on all this, I

have to

vote Spadille". His case on me is weird too, nothing really new, vague stuff or stuff I had already explained earlier, like if he feels obliged to make a case on me to get his vote off of Spadille. And his "I lost my notes on Snarky" is odd at best, for, if I was really the scummiest player on his mind, he would have remembered it and not have voted for Spadille before. Leans scum

DeityKabuto: After reading him in ISO, he's still scum in my mind:

1. I noticed his "scumhunting strategy" basically is the slayer gambit, but he never mentions it being so. Why? Very odd, especially after reading posts 45-46. It just feels like he wanted to justify his self-vote with Slayer's gambit without mentionning it, because Spadille had predicted that move from scum.

2. I don't like how he assumes everyone thinks he is town, and how those who do not think he is town are necessarily scum.

Overall, I am getting a bit of a townie vibe from Spadile, but my inner "gut" feels bad that he is false-accusing me for being scum, makes me think that he is "scum" since Scum are supose to make Townies look bad.

I mean seriously, it should be pretty obvious that I am a townie, and you guys are either newbie scum who think they are making me look bad.

and I don't know where you guys are bringing up the whole thing with ZMuffinMan and I, you guys are ignorant scum trying to make us look bad. Face the facts. I AM A TOWNIE. You scum, pretty much just lost.

3. I don't like how he has given no opinion, no nothing on people that aren't on his wagon. I know it may be part of your strategy, but still. what do you think of other players?

4. I don't like his claim.

5. I hate his Ate on his ISO 14.

6. And I don't like his attempt to buddy with Spadille.

7. I also don't like how he answers rarely to cases posted against him.

Also, enough with that I am Omgus. This is my form of scumhunting, if you don't like, well stop hating.

Your case is a complete, fake, nuff' said. I effing' control you. I asked you to give me a wall, and this is what you provide? Learn2WallNoob

8. And finally I don't like how he wants to be the master of the town

I really can't see how this guy can be a townie. He seems like a scum trying a new strategy to confuse town, really. He wants to be the master of the town (thus shows his desire to manipulate the town as he wish) , all of his cases are illogical and biaised by his "OMGUS scumstrategy", and he never defends against accusations against him, always saying "Hey! it's my playstyle, shut up.", or "you don't have good enough arguments to vote me" without never disprooving them.

Will finish this later.

Snarky · Post Post #263 (isolation #19) » Mon May 23, 2011 12:57 am

cjdrum wrote:
And the "have to" - phrasing. We've gotta vote for who we think is scum, and I thought Spadille was scum. Then I looked closer at you, and thought you were scum, so voted on you.
I don't see what you're trying to say with your "
have to
" comment.

The have to comment felt like you felt sorry for voting Spadille. Anyway I'm satisfied with your explanations. still, your cases are vague, I put you back at neutral.

So, I shall continue where I left

DonJosh: neutral, slightly scum, for not a lot of content and a bad vote.

Parabollocks: Neutral, leaning town. Like how he gets his thoughts straight and clear, he knows where he's going and he's consistent. I didn't like however when he pardonned DK by saying his OMGUSes were jokes, but it is not enough to get him on the scum side.

pops: Neutral, slightly scum. Not a lot here too, but I still don't like the defense of DK's mega OMGUS post.

Snake. Neutral for no content.

Spadille: I don't like how he is tunneling on DK. I also don't like his vote on Muffin. It really seemed he voted for him just because he didn't agree with him on his view of DK (That was even more obvious when he FOSed him before, because at tht moment, Muffin had not slipped). Leans scum.

Toro: Neutral. Don't see scumtells nor towntells. His reads were meh much as his back and forth with Muffin, but nothing really pinged my radar.

zMuffinMan: Muffin, stop defending DK. He can do it alone. Really you haven't done much more than that since the beginning of the game, you just seem to be DK's bodyguard and that's not a town attitude, regardless of buddying and slips. Leans scum.

Oh yeah, and what I don't like is what I find scummy.

Snarky · Post Post #266 (isolation #20) » Mon May 23, 2011 2:02 am

Saying that is quite easy for you. How aren't they scummy?What's your definition of the word scummy? What are DK's towntells? What can you say to disproove my case? Please, if you really think he is town, convince me other than just shouting he isn't scummy he isn't scummy.

Snarky · Post Post #286 (isolation #21) » Mon May 23, 2011 9:33 am

How DK's wall post may be long but full of fluff.

Spoiler:

Now that was just the case on me. But I read all the post and there was nothing true, logical in it, especially his town reads, which are basically his town reads because these people agree with him or defend him. DK, I tell you, you're just scum trying to revive the wagon on me because the other town's option is to lynch you. That's why you made that long ISO, to impress town to think "Oh my God! Look at how much he's got scum points against Snarky, he must necessarily be right". Nah, that just don't work like that. Conciseness is pro-town.

Snarky · Post Post #293 (isolation #22) » Mon May 23, 2011 4:13 pm

Fine.

1. Spadille had predicted that if DK was scum, he would declare having used the slayer's gambit and pursue his wagoners, you agree? Now what does DK? He pursues his wagoners in order to justify his self-vote, but he does not ever mention the slayer's gambit. Why? He's lying, or at least hiding his true strategy in order to escape Spadille's accusations, and lying is scummy.

2. hmm I misformulated this: I find scummy that he thinks everyone on his wagon is scum and everyone out of it is town. How is that scummy? He's splitting the town in on-my-wagon out-of-my-wagon rather than in scummy or not scummy, which creates a lot of confusion and is just false. Also, by doing so, he's not really scumhunting, for his reads on people are already fixed, and the only thing he's got to do is throw bullshitty accusations on people on his wagon to get scumhunting points from people out of his wagon. Moreover, it permits him to buddy with people out of his wagon and get rid easily of people that are a threat for him. I can only see scum advantages out of this play, for on the town side, playing like this equals biaised and illogical reads.

3. That's tunneling. He does not have a view on all the game, he's just scum focusing on lynching people he wants to lynch without taking care of other players. How can that be not scummy?

4. That claim was too early. It just screams that the only thing he thinks about is self-preservation, and that's scummy because townies do not care about self-preservation for their goal is to lynch scum, not to survive.

5. Appeal to emotions. instead of defending himself, he says scum will win more easily if he's lynched and uses a sad smiley face. That prooves that he's got no arguments to defend himself, so he bets his survival on a logical fallacy. Scummy again.

6. His attempt to buddy with Spadille. Spadille was the one who was the most pushing on DK's lynch, and, rather than defending himself, he proposed this alliance with Spad. He's trying to get pardonned with this illogical proposition rather than with solid defense, and that again prooves that he has no good defense because he is scum.

7. He rarely answers to cases posted against him. Rather than defending himself, he accuses his attackers of having a bad case on him. If he really thought the case was bad, why didn't he point out its flaws? Because he couldn't see flaws and had no words to defend himself. Again, he's avoiding defense because he is scum.

8. He wants to manipulate the town. He wants town to have the same reads as he has, to have the same opinions that he has. For town its a bad play because diversity of opinions is much more effective to catch scum than just following a master who can be totally wrong. For scum, it's a good play, because if he manages to get players on his side, then he can lynch whoever he wants.

Snarky · Post Post #321 (isolation #23) » Tue May 24, 2011 9:15 am

Spadille wrote:
----

Snarky wrote:Don't be silly, for sure I needed to say I found him scum in order to pressure him. And I really THOUGHT he was the scummiest, but it was too early in the game to be SURE he was scum.

You actually said that you believe he was scum at the same post I took the "pressure vote" thingy:

Snarky wrote:My vote is on the one I beleive to be scum.

Snarky wrote:my vote is there for pressure because I think DKs the scummiest player of all.

All of that in ISO#15. Now please tell me, what really?

Your playing with words. I don't see how these three quotes are contradictory.

I still don't really agree with using the day-vig today, I think it would be preferable using it on day 2, but still, I see pros and cons for both, and using it today is maybe less risky, so I won't oppose it.

Snarky · Post Post #378 (isolation #24) » Wed May 25, 2011 5:53 am

Ok, after Muffin's meta call for defending DK, I took a quick glance at DK's meta and I couldn't find a game where he had a playstyle similar to what he's playing here. Muffin, have you already played with DK before? Is there a specific game you could point out to support your POV of DK? I looked quickly at a game where he was scum, and he seemed to be a little more conservative than he is now (well at least before he claimed goon...), but still, I think I may need more than that to reconsider my position. I don't think meta can clear him at all, but it may be enough to not be able to draw any conclusion on DK's alignment, which may really hurt us. Usually, these kind of players should be lynched anyway because if they troll so much that we can't have any conclusion regarding their alignment then they are hurting the town. However, I really like the idea of going after Toro because it will definitely clear this ambiguity about DK, and get the town out of the stall it actually is.

Do you guys think we should make a mini-unofficial vote count for those who want to follow Muffin's plan and for those who wish to vig DK nontheless? I'm going to unofficially vigvote Toro.

Snarky · Post Post #388 (isolation #25) » Wed May 25, 2011 7:47 am

LK: I didn't like CJ when he posted those vague reads on players. I had put it in the neutral spot since he had just arrived, but now he hasn't done much for the town other than discussing of the day kill, so he leans more scum to me.

Oh yeah and please explain yourself on why my post was suspicious.

Snarky · Post Post #396 (isolation #26) » Wed May 25, 2011 8:51 am

I think you misread something, as the entirety of my post is NOT about how we should off DK. DK, after reading meta and Muffin's points, has slipped from 100% scum in my mind to unconfirmable player because of his playstyle. On the other hand, I saw Toro's call of a slip by DK to be such a reach that if Toro flips scum, I would be pretty confortable to say DK is town. That's why I think muffin's plan may be the best action for now, for it will clear the "unconfirmable" status out of DK, which is very hurtful for town. So in conclusion, we should off DK only if Toro turns out town, for his unconfirmable status will still be there.

Now LK, you know that your analysis of why my post was suspicious is pretty much biaised towards the fact that I'm Toro's scumpartner? That is, you just prooved that I am scum if I am scum, so in other words, you prooved nothing.

Snarky · Post Post #447 (isolation #27) » Wed May 25, 2011 3:19 pm

@@@Snarky:

DK and Toro go off to visit Mars. Who would your next scum pick be and why?

CJ and Spadille, as explained in my earlier reads. Now can you stop this? If you ceased posting like mads it would have took me less time to post. Oh yeah and just a reminder I'm still on DK's wagon, and, as I said, meta analysis did not clear him to me for his scummy actions. It's just Toro-scum flip who would give me some trouble believing DK could actually be scum. Or maybe Toro tried to bus his bad scumpartner? Maybe... but there's low probability IMO. However, if Toro flips town, well, DK still is at the top of myy scum list.

Snarky · Post Post #450 (isolation #28) » Wed May 25, 2011 3:25 pm

I'm VT, I don't know what you expected...

Snarky · Post Post #465 (isolation #29) » Wed May 25, 2011 4:09 pm

So i must conclude I really am dead

Farewell then, it's been a pleasure

Snarky · Post Post #1341 (isolation #30) » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:28 am

Oh so we've lost. Meh, town was wonderful and totally deserves the win. Or I played like a crap. Or both. Most probably both. I read the scum QT, Jil. Sorry for that, I did play badly.

Snarky · Post Post #1345 (isolation #31) » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:51 am

Btw, what does flailing means?