Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den - Endgame

[Katy]

Vote: SGRaaize

How about you?

[Katy]

Part of your problem, SGR, is that Merlin is a WIZARD so you are pretty obv. scum.

However.

Unvote

This is exactly the kind of stuff that made the last game so frustrating with two consecutive days of rush mislynching

VOTE: Iecy

Unvote

VOTE: Implosion

Why vote Soben, a player who has yet to post, given that things have happened thus far in thread?

@ABR

: I don't see any reason for people to claim damaging abilities. Given the hit point mechanic there will certainly be multiple ways for people to damage others, judging from the past. If we want to direct damaging abilities to one person it should be pretty simple to do so without having to have every single person who has the capability out themselves.

[Katy]

Post #126 by Katy - So SGR is "pretty obv. scum." but you don't vote him? Explain.

I said he was obv. scum because he kept saying he was Merlin (a wizard). In other words, a joke.

Even if I thought he was scummy (and I'm not sure on that right now) I would have unvoted because he had racked up seven votes in a short amount of time and in the previous Sorcerers/Wizards game the exact same thing happened leading to a quick mislynch, so I was being cautious and unvoting. Plus, Implosion was and still is coming off as more scummy than SGR. I don't understand why he cares so much about the who the hydra is. How are their identities relevant to their alignment?

I don't think CMAR's response to me was a slip. I think scum is well aware of what faction they are, town is more likely to mess it up. When I first got my role message I was pretty confused too because I hadn't yet realized the factions were switched this time and the role names don't always indicate which side you are on.

[Katy]

Pine is so emotional about this I almost feel he has to be town losing it. I think scum would have dropped it rather than make this point about Icey such a big issue and draw so much attention (and votes).

Personally, I don't see what's so awful about following Icey for the first day. If they have a helpful ability, then it's worth it. If this is some kind of scum ploy then the first day is the time to expose it. There is no way that a moderator puts this much effort into a game and then gives someone an ability that could end the game on day one. That kind of paranoia isn't going to get us anywhere. It's valid not to trust Icey but inflating it into an issue of epic proportions is not helpful to town, if you really are town.

Still waiting for implosion to come and post some relevant content.

[Katy]

Katy: How are Pine's huge piles of AtE making you think town?!

I don't know what AtE is. I just know my own experience which is that whenever anyone freaks out on day one over a game issue like this and draws a bunch of attention and a lynch, it's been a mislynch. Maybe this will be the day that find out I'm wrong, but I trust my own experience over acronyms or other people simply telling me I am wrong.

[Katy]

Katy: AtE is Appeal to Emotion, for future reference.

Thanks. I guess I don't see that as a reliable scumtell. I have seen townies appeal to emotion numerous times. It may be something you can use as a meta-tell if you know the player, but some players get more emotional as town who is falsely accused than as scum. In addition, I could see the point if Pine had been called out for some small detail because scum often get angry when they feel they are being caught for the wrong reasons. But Pine deliberately chose to make this Icey thing a big deal. Something I just don't see scum doing.

I think the threat to self-vote is anti-town but I don't necessarily think it is scummy. I have seen both town and scum do it, and when it's town it's usually players who are already acting highly irrational (and appealing to emotion). I don't think it is in and of itself a scumtell unless someone can convince me that this is how Pine in particular acts when scummy and someone has already said that it is not.

On the other hand, implosion -

Did nothing except vote for the hydra just to try to find out who was in it for much of the beginning of the game.

It was early game with little to go on, so I may as well have looked for the hydra heads while there was relatively little to do.

That's not exactly true. There were already a few things that could have been commented at the time - Icey's claim for one and ABR's seeking to hear from those with damaging abilities. There were various people's reactions to those two things as well. You chose to vote for someone who hadn't posted at all yet in the interest of finding out who it was.

I'm also not sure why his vote is still on soben if he finds Soben to be "town overall' and to have a scum read on LMP. Even if you don't have much to go on, why wouldn't you take your vote off someone you think is town, that you didn't really have reason to vote for in the first place, and put it on the person you think is scum, even if it's just gut for now?

On the other hand, the other person I find scummy is the same as implosion ... LMP.

I find his initial vote on Wratchchild for

For trying to dissuade votes based on actions and instead push for RVS. The faster RVS dies the better.

to be disingenuous. Wrathchild was just expressing dislike of Pine's seriousness, he was not trying to "push for RVS" that I can see.

In looking at him in ISO several of his posts are just questions without any followup. It caught my eye because asking three to four questions of players in a row without any followup looks to me like throwing stuff out there to make people look suspect without having to explain why they are suspect. It also looks like appearing to be scumhunting but without any serious intent behind it.

FoS: LMP

[Katy]

I think that answers that. Not to mention that the rule as stated doesn't say anything about claiming being against the rules, just that it's a very bad idea.

The Beefster-Amrun back and forth is striking me very strange. Amrun's obsession with finding out what every single person thinks of Beefster is a little excessive.

Decided to take a look at the wagons on SGR and Pine to see what I could see from them.

SGRaaize - Katy, ManaKu, chesskid3, gandalf5166, Dryfit, LynchMePls, inHimshallibe, WrathChild
Pine - Zdenek, SGRaaize, IceyCupcake, Amrun, gandalf5166, BabySpice, ABR, ManaKu, CryMeARiver

Gandalf and ManaKu were both on both wagons. I think these wagons were a source of joy to scum. Especially given the caution against claiming it's in their interest to try to get get wagons rolling quickly at the beginning and see if they can get claims out of town players, and players who jumped on both of them are worth looking more closely at, to me. I took the votes mostly from vote counts, although I know my vote never showed up in the votecounts (I added it here) so it's possible I could have missed some. Am supposed to be working right now, so no time to go back and check all the votes.

Mana kept his vote on Pine even after he claimed and continued to push him despite numerous reasons to believe he was town. Gandalf on the other hand has changed his vote quite a bit and his play so far pretty typical Gandalf.

UNVOTE: implosion
VOTE: IceyCupcake
UNVOTE: IceyCupcake
VOTE: ManaKu

[Katy]

ok

FEYSAL YOU KNOW WHAT I AM

DO YOU THINK PEOPLE WHO ARE DELIBERATELY IGNORING WHAT I AM AND WHAT I HAVE PRETTY MUCH SMACKED EVERYONE ON THE HEAD WITH ARE

A) SCUM WHO WANT THAT MISLYNCH
B) REALLY REALLY REALLY FUCKING STUPID TOWNIES

OPINIONS PLEASE

C) You're chesskid and people didn't notice anything because you always act like this.

I ISO'd you and I don't see anything that can be considered a smack on the head. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be seeing, I'm relegated to making a guess. I am going to make my guess at what you are referring to by doing this. But I'm wondering if all the people who are like "OHHHH Chess is obv town!" really know or are they just following the crowd. Cause honestly having played with chess a couple times recently I don't notice anything that's not normal Chesskid behavior.

UNVOTE: ManaKun
VOTE: IecyCupcake
UNVOTE: Iecy
VOTE: implosion

[Katy]

If you don't know, then why did you unvote mana?

Because:

I am going to make my guess at what you are referring to by doing this

after which I originally had voted, but then I added in another sentence so it wasn't really clear.

That vote was me guessing what people were referring to with Chesskid without saying anything out loud. I guess I was right.

This modkill back and forth is really pointless and it's raising my hackles.

@Wrathchild

: Why is this issue so important to you? The plan was killed in the water by the mod before you even started arguing about it. A bad plan isn't scummy, and I tend to think that trying to create strategies is something town players do more than scum (even if they are bad strategies) because it's really hard to successfully make a fake plan as scum that doesn't hurt you somehow. Even if you think it's scummy you are generating a lot of really distracting noise in the thread that makes it hard to read for relevant info.

[Katy]

@WrathChild

Fair enough.

Unvote

VOTE: Baby Spice
Not liking the nitpicking and misrep. You've been sheeping a lot, too. (Like right now)

This is not inconsistent with BabySpice town, unfortunately. I don't know how she is as scum, so she might be like this as scum too, but these points in itself don't prove anything about BabySpice.

I've been wavering on Amrun but at this point in time I don't get a huge scum vibe from her or Beef despite each constantly picking at the other. If I were to change my vote it would go to LMP, or there is one other person I don't like the look of:

Would really like to hear more from SnakePlissken, not liking his contribution so far.

This coming from a person who has three posts in the entire game.

[Katy]

I've been wavering on Amrun

In what instances did you favor her as scum and what changed your mind?

When she kept asking every single person what they thought of Beefster regardless of the topic of conversation, I thought it was a little weird, like trying to get other people to make a case on him instead of herself. But her interaction with chesskid and her continued conversation with Beefster pushed me back the other way. She seemed prepared to respond to him directly instead of just continue to ask people what they thought of him, which is a townier way to tunnel on someone, if you must. At this point I'm not sure, but I'm still leaning town. She's responding pretty well to the pressure from multiple players and I don't think she's being as snitty as you think she is. Just ... internet, ya know.

If their is an ability that is killing off people if they claim, it would obviously belong to the mod. Reason of this thinking is because in OoT mafia, the mods were able to auto hammer masons if they were put at L-1. I really think we should lynch Snow_Bunny and therefore have a chance at claiming.

What? Is this a joke or what? You really think Snow_Bunny would let us go against her intent by lynching her? Have you been paying attention to her mod posts. We should all just move past the claiming thing. We are going to play this game without that crutch, as intended. What was the point of this speculation?

Beef is bugging me so much.

His content is pretty much:

"I'm lazy"
"I'm Town"
"I'm gonna continue to be lazy town"
"You think I'm scum? YOU ARE!"
"You think I'm town? YEAH ME! TOLD YOU!"

But does that mean he is scummy? Or just exactly what he says he is?

[Katy]

What? Is this a joke or what? You really think Snow_Bunny would let us go against her intent by lynching her? Have you been paying attention to her mod posts. We should all just move past the claiming thing. We are going to play this game without that crutch, as intended. What was the point of this speculation?

Why would S_B allow herself to be voted then?

Because it has no real effect? For votecounting purposes? All kinds of reasons.

@Katy: If the mod is the one killing off people who claimed (therefore making it a in-game ability and not a modkill), why would it be bad to kill the mod off? The only way I can see it bad is if you are scum/anti third party, but I rather give you the benefit of the doubt

We have no evidence that the mod is killing anyone off in an in-game sort of way. I think that Snow_Bunny was pretty clear with her mod posts and with previous games, and I don't read the non-claiming message as something that we are supposed to try to overcome. I thought it was pretty clear that S_B set these games up in such a way to encourage play without claiming by incorporating pitfalls to claiming. I don't understand why we would waste time trying to figure out how to do something the mod explicitly stated she doesn't want us to do. We're trying to beat the scum, not the moderator, and focusing on speculative ways of trying to work around a game restriction rather than on finding scum seems ... well, scummy.

Dry-fit still seeming scummy to me. In the Amrun/Beefster battle, if I was choosing between the two I would vote Beef, but that's only between the two of them, he's not real high up on my must die list. Still not liking implosion either.

@Snake: That's it? You haven't so much as mentioned Feysal previously.

[Katy]

WHOOPS. That was my hydra account. This is actually me saying this:

Yessss ... implosion.

I dunno, I kind of think if we all give three names the lists will be different enough that mafia would have to be pretty clever to second guess exactly which target something was going to land on. There's no guarantee an investigator is going to simply pick the number one choice, nor that damagers will all focus on the number one choice. Plus, it amuses me to think of scum sorting through all these lists trying to WIFOM their way into guessing targets.

Damagers and investigators still have agency to pick whoever they like so I don't think we're leaving an explicit roadmap for scum, but scum will have to give out some pretty interesting info and I have had lists like these pay off big time in end games before when scum had to make them. That said, I will stick with damage only for now, since that seems to be the new plan and I don't think the investigate list is really necessary, any more than in any other game.

My pix (assuming imposion lynch):

Damage:
1) Dry-fit
2) Snake Plissken
3) Beefster

[Katy]

All right, catching up after the long weekend, which kind of swept me away.

Katy, why did you do the vote unvote icey thing twice?

Because from what they said, it seemed to me like they were asking for it to be done before every vote.

I'd like to give it a bit more time. I have a more neutral read on RBT atm. I'd like to see everyone's top scumpicks before compromising that far.

This is weird ... from your posting it seems you want Amrun dead, yet this reads as if you intend on just seeing who everyone else likes and picking a popular bandwagon to join.

Not reading imp's case against me. It's long, I'm town, and I have better things to do. I did see something about retroactive justification because I was looking for the part that Amrun referenced. I figured it was fairly obvious why I was voting for him. His posts were bad. When somebody is that obviously scummy, I usually don't bother justifying my votes.

Wow, this post sets off all sorts of alarm bells in my head.

- "I'm not going to respond to this because I have better things to do." [proceeds to not do anything]
- "Oh wait but I am going to respond to this one part because I can actually think of a response to it. I have no defense for the rest."
- "I voted for HIM because HE was so obvious scum."
-"Who?"
- "Oh um ... all of them"

I need to point out as I have just realised I haven't done yet. I will be V/LA Every weekend it is also a bank holiday in the UK which means I won't be around much today either. I can't believe we still don't have a lynch yet?!

Unvote, vote Katsuki

SERIOUSLY? You can't be scum and be this completely clueless ... can you?

Katy - 12 post ISO does not inspire confidence.

It was a holiday weekend, I haven't posted in a couple of days because I've been having a fun holiday - it's the first time I've gotten two days in a row off of work for months. Not to mention that unlike some players, I only post when I have actual content to provide. I would prefer if someone judged not by the number of posts I have but the content of them. I love mafia and can't ever stay away for long, but I am also an adult with both career and home responsibilities. I generally set aside time to post once a day, and can't really guarantee more, but I devote more time when I am able. I think my posts are pretty substantial though, enough for you to judge whether you actually think I'm town or scum. The kind of vigging you suggest is for people so lurky there's no way to tell.

The way implosion defends himself makes me think he's town.

Lastly, I am actually in agreement with this. I have a long way to go to make it all the way through this thread but I'm suddenly not as thrilled with an implo lynch as I was before. Especially considering some of the alternatives. In particular this one:

UNVOTE: unvote
VOTE: vote Icey
UNVOTE: unvote
VOTE: vote gandalf

I agree that Gandalf doesn't strike me as quite as vocal as he normally does, plus when he responds to a case against him, he picks out one point he thinks he has a response to and then has some excuse for not responding to anything else. I am used to a much more aggressive, vocal and prominent Gandalf as town.

I have a hard time reading RBT on day one as they seem to always read scummy. I am unsure enough that if the lynch swings that way I will join it, but I am also unsure enough not to just jump right on.

Also, I thought Beefster/Amrun was a town fight, but Beefster's latest posting is making me uneasy. I'm starting to get a gut scum read there.

I'm still not expecting the mod lynch to pan out. As far as I know, the advice against claiming has been in every game, and it seemed to me that Snow_Bunny was just enforcing it more strongly this time. Still, testing it out is a good way to go, otherwise speculation will continue popping up. Especially from scum players looking for a distraction to give the town. If we're going to explore this avenue, might as well do it now and put it to rest one way or the other.

[Katy]

People I would vote for (besides my present vote) in order of preference: Beefster, Dry-fit, RBT.

RBT is my last choice to switch to, especially considering two of my top lynch choices are already voting for her. Still, I am willing to vote for any of these, even RBT who I give at worst 50/50 odds of being scum, to get on with the day because we are coming to a standstill and people are getting bored, understandably. Our early leads didn't pan out, we are all being pretty boring, and presumably we are all excited for sorcerous powers to start flying back and forth. We need to move to a consensus somehow, so people who are on one-off wagons should probably move to a bigger one if we want to progress.

Top three as of last vote count are Gandalf, RBT and implosion.

[Katy]

The way I've read the rules you can only send in an action either D1 or N1 and it's far more optimal to send it in N1 after a flip occurs therefore I don't see the need to have a delayed time-period to send in actions near the end of the day.

It says you can use one per phase. I read that as being able to use one at day AND one at night if you chose to.

[Katy]

Internet was down all night, I will have to read and post tomorrow.

[Katy]

I wasn't that active yesterday for several reasons, including that a lot was going on in another game I'm involved in and that work all of the sudden got sucky and I've been unexpectedly stressed, making it hard for me to come in and focus really hard on playing.

If it helps, I can tell you that I checked out the masons and I don't believe there is any gambit going on there. As to anything else I have to say, I want to check something with the mod first.

@Inhim

: Can you elaborate on this "slip" about mislynches?

[Katy]

Talking about mislynches of people other than yourself or those you know are not scum before the fact just seems to smack of too much information.

Later on in the Day, I didn't push the issue further, but feel it may be worth it now.

I wasn't talking about a mislynch on someone I knew was town, I was talking about avoiding what happened on the first two days of SitMOA II. I have no idea what SGR's alignment is, and at that point in the game I was on the fence on him. But in SitMOA II, the first two days were cut short when bandwagons piled up extremely quickly for little reason and then the player was hammered (in both cases unintentionally) before there was time for any real discussion during the day. The first mislynch led directly to the second mislynch and it was not good for town. I wasn't trying to defend SGR so much as I was trying to take off my vote so that nothing stupid happened like last time.

[Katy]

I MEAN WHAT SORT OF FUCKING SCUM CLAIMS MASONS DAY 1 IN A LARGE GAME KATY? WHAT IS THIS? WHY WOULD YOU USE ANY SORT OF ALIGNMENT CHECKING ABILITY ON CLAIMED MASONS. that's terribad play.

What sort of masons claim mason on day one for no reason?

I don't have an alignment checking ability. If I did, I wouldn't have wasted it on you. I do have something I could use to check out your claim and wouldn't have been as useful on anyone else, so since I got an extra chance to use an ability (since we can use one per phase), then why not? I didn't think it very likely you were scum, but now I don't have to worry about it.

Anyway, I've been so focused on other things I've practically forgotten day one except it seemed way longer than it was. I have to review my notes and the day before I give my FOS and actual reads.

[Katy]

lol. Lynch someone who is healthy? I see some logic in that, but most people who got hurt are by a town role more then likely.
Meaning healthy people can be town too, and more then likely will be town.

I think the idea is that people who are badly damaged don't need to be lynched because they can be vigged off at night.

[Katy]

The best part is there were a number of people who wanted Katy dead yesterday, Feysal. Yet she didn't even take the least little bit of damage.

Odd, huh?

What? Who wanted me dead yesterday? The only thing I remember is Dry-Fit putting me on their damage list and they said it was OMGUS when they listed it, because I had them on my list. I don't recall anyone voting for me, and if they did it wasn't long enough to appear on any vote count. The only other person who said anything like wanting me dead yesterday was you, and it was only because I didn't have a lot of posts. Post count doesn't actually correlate to alignment. My post count is related to how engaged in the game I am and what's going on in my life. I said this before, but if you want to paint me as scum you'll have to find the content of my posts that are scummy, not just that I haven't posted a lot.

You're going to find it harder and harder to get town to follow your lead based on some mysterious claim from day one, given that we've seen no payoff from your special power and all of your reads yesterday were dead wrong and we have three dead (or recently dead) townies to prove it (Pine, Amrun, RBT).

And I do have reads ... I just didn't have them yet earlier in the day. I was working and so while I could take a couple of minutes to keep up with the thread and respond to current events, I did not have time to go back and review the previous day and remember what happened. I explained all that, so whatever. I've been reading tonight so here are notes/scumpicks:

After looking at votes, I initially was going to say Gandalf, but giving him a re-read he is consistent with town Gandalf. He is impulsive and crazy and stubborn about things that don't matter, but his posts from day one read like actual Gandalf scumhunting to me and I can see the thought process behind his posting which makes it feel genuine to me, not faked.

FOS: Dry-fit

His participation is minimal and he shies away from taking definitive stances. He brushes off any suspicion against him and doesn't engage it. He picked on Snake a lot yesterday and it strikes me as picking out an easy target. I cannot for the life of me read Snake because he's so off the wall. If he's town then he's enormous scumbait, which is deja vu to the last game of this type and I'm especially suspect of of someone who is all but lurking going after another low activity player who posts bizarrely. It reads like "hey look at this guy (not me)."

WrathChild

is another person who reads scummy to me. He posts often but very little of it is focused on actual scumhunting. A lot of his posts are vague and general rather than specific and when he is specific it's generally to argue game mechanics like how Pine died or whether the claim plan from yesterday was a good idea or not, well after it was clear that we weren't doing it, or doing things like writing up a long description of the Amrun-Beefster wagon then doesn't use it for any scumhunting purpose. What's the point of painstakingly drawing up a whole timeline if your end result is "they are both town, this is just normal gameplay"?

If Dry-Fit IS scum, there's also a possible connection to Dry-Fit here. He tries to head off votes on Dry-Fit to instead be damaged at night. I suspect that scumbuddies will be advocating for lurkers to be damaged at night because out of all the lurking players not all of them are going to be scum. They'll just protect their lurky buddies at night and let the town lurkers take the damage and be vigged. Meanwhile, those teammates get an early reprieve from being lynched.

[Katy]

But I do have new info. I just reread yesterday knowing the alignments of several players, but more importantly but with less ability to talk about it, I've just seen you flip in [REDACTED] so I have a lot more info on my Gandalf file than I did during the last game day in this game.

Also, changing my mind on you like that would be bad if we were both scum. Since you know very well we're not buddies, then I'm not sure what's so BAAAAAD about it, but feel free to elaborate.

[Katy]

Bunnylover already alluded to this, but I am pretty sure that not all night actions hit their intended targets last night. So analyzing the night kill based on who the target was might not be reliable.

[Katy]

why isn't Katy scum?

Why AM I scum? There hasn't been a whole lot of reasoning given and most of the FOS's are just because "yeah that sounds good to me."

Given that townies are dying left and right, and we're not able to claim, it would be nice if people would actually make a case instead of just placing a vote/FOS because there's not a whole lot that I can do at the moment.

[Katy]

Interesting. I thought threw a 4 damage spell at Baby Spice. It must have been blocked/commuted.

*Argh* I was probably roleblocked... or Baby Spice is undead. My spells don't affect undead.

Interesting info, saving it up for later.

His action hit another target.

Since I am racking up pseudo-votes and now have one seemingly unchangeable real vote with nothing I can actually respond to, and nothing much is happening, let me make things a little more explicit.

Last night I targeted Amrun. My action hit RBT instead.

It should be pretty clear what I did.

I don't know what Bunnylover did, so I don't know if it was universal or how it worked, but if you targeted someone and it doesn't seem like they got hit, that's why. Bunnylover messed with actions, and they also have admitted it so I doubt they are scum. As WratchChild pointed out, it's not likely scum would alert people to that kind of a night action. So, Icey, if part of your concern about me is that you tried to damage me and I didn't get damaged, that would explain it.

[Katy]

AGOG,

Why does a scum player admit to rearranging night actions when no one in thread seems aware of it and are basing their analyses on who they think was targeted at night?

I don't really see Bunnylover as scum given that fact.

[Katy]

Also, I noticed RBT was bruised meaning that it was either a condition of revival or non-town attacked RBT last night.

It's from the revive. It takes a lot of effort to bring someone back to life! Healing them to full on top of that is way too hard.

[Katy]

except for the part where we roleblocked her last night and she still claims an action that worked

Unless someone else revived RBT last night, then actions definitely went astray. I know my revive was used, and the target I chose did not revive. RBT did revive.

Baby Spice is right, I think. Either Bunny_Lover is telling the truth and your action hit someone else because of them, or some other effect caused actions to go astray and in that case your action didn't hit BL anyway.

Note in the rules:

When a player has an ability blocked or when an ability is prevented, it will know that its ability failed and the ability won't be used.

If BL was really blocked they would know it and so wouldn't have claimed to have done anything. I think the question to Bunny_Lover is - are you claiming a redirect? Ability resolution indicates that an RB can affect a redirect, but we still don't know exactly what BL is claiming to have done.

[Katy]

Let me quote again:

When a player has an ability blocked or when an ability is prevented,

it will know that its ability failed

and the ability won't be used.

If Bunnylover was roleblocked, they would have been informed. I find it really impossible that scum Bunnylover would not only have claimed an action that was causing people to speculate incorrectly about their night actions, but would have done so if they were notified that their action failed and the ability wasn't used, which is what should have happened if the roleblock really worked.

[Katy]

Here's an idea people start voting and get on with it. Dropmthe FOS you should have a clear idea on who you think is scum by now.

I don't know why I'm bothering to explain this, but part of the procedure of the day is coming to a consensus so that town can accomplish a lynch instead of splitting the votes.

If people place votes now, we will pretty much be locking ourselves into the first couple people to get votes as lynch candidates for the day since spreading votes among too many risks getting into a position where we won't lynch. There's no reason to start voting until we know who we are going to lynch because once a person gets anough votes on them to claim or whatever they will pretty much have to be lynched anyway since no one can then unvote them. Not to mention that we have a number of players who either need to start playing or be replaced. It's not really a good time to start locking ourselves in when we haven't even heard from several players or heard very little. There may be more information that someone has that we haven't gotten yet.

Why are you pushing this right now anyway? Don't you realize that if people lock in their votes now, the most likely person to be lynched is you?

[Katy]

So we are not getting an extension due to the inactivity of players? I still like my FOS for a vote, but am willing to hold off until replacements, etc. can show up, I guess during the next day?

I will take a look at Surye and Zdenek today and see if I'm down for voting either of them by tonight.

Also, I will be

V/LA July 1-14

- going to be traveling around Ireland and probably will be restricted to posting from my phone when I can get a chance.

[Katy]

I don't see why Zdenek is scum at all. Read back over and he seems to be one of the more reasonable and participatory players. I'm placing my vote now but if someone can make a persuasive case on him I'll take that into account for tomorrow.

That leaves Surye ... Surye's posting in itself doesn't tell me anything but I feel better about this vote, as I was getting a gut scum-feel from LMP but could not pin down an articulate case on him. My gut is every bit as effective as my logic though (not sure if that's a good thing or not).

Vote: Surye