Dynasty Warriors Mafia (Shu Victorious)

[ToastyToast]

/confirm

[ToastyToast]

And no fucking way should any town player challenge anybody to a duel without a majority agreement. No fucking way. It is anti-town to act on something irreversible like deciding the duel for the town. We will get much more info if everyone decides together.

I agree with this for the most part, but if there comes a situation where something is a 1v1 without a duel...well, they should probably just duel. Also, limiting the amount of duels will limit the amount of town power.

And hello to AGM, RayFrost, Amrun, iecrint, Dk, GreyICE, and CSL! looking forward to playing with ya'all again!

[ToastyToast]

Vote:GreyICE

for lurking in the first few minutes

[ToastyToast]

Vote mykonian

Most probable wagon to join right now, not that serious though.

So...Your vote isn't random?

[ToastyToast]

I'm saying that, for the most part, elvis is correct. Who duels who should be left up to town. If there are to obviously growing wagons, both of which are being contested against one another, that is enough reason for a duel. They can legitimately duke it out, so to speak.

SO, I'm not talking about any 'lil argument, but one in which it becomes apparent that no other lynch will be happening.

If I think neither of them scummy? Touche, that would suck. Just note that when I said 1v1, I more or less meant the above--that there is a general consensus that at least one of the 2 ppl is scum.

The duel mechanic forces players to take a risk for the sake of power. It is a powerful tool when done correctly, but when a town loses, it hurts regardless of whether or not the person dueling them was scum.

I think we should just get the speculation stuff of the way early, so:
1) Should duels be a town consensus or based on an individuals confidence in their reads/need for power?
2) Flavor speculation: Who is our enemy?

My answers:
1)Town consensus, UNLESS, as stated earlier, it is a player is confident enough in his reasons for dueling without it. Consensus suggests that everyone is agreement on something, but the majority is not always correct.
2) I don't know it well enough, which is why I asked the question. However, given the amount of families in the game, I could see more than one scum team.

[ToastyToast]

1)Town consensus, UNLESS, as stated earlier, it is a player is confident enough in his reasons for dueling without it. Consensus suggests that everyone is agreement on something, but the majority is not always correct.

This is a pretty non-concrete stance on the issue. Majority rules except when somebody strongly disagrees with the majority? That's not majority rules.

Scumbucket with you.

sigh...your misunderstanding me. People are going to want to duel, regardless of what the town is thinking. In a situation i which a person is ABSOLUTELY convinced that another is scum, and they believe they have enough evidence to convince the town (which must be done regardless of the duel mechanic), then I feel they have enough reason to start said duel. A duel implies that its not town-vs-suspect--it, at its root, is still one player versus another. Dueling a person forces everyone to pay attention.

[ToastyToast]

Please read some other DK games before voting him

^^This is good to keep in mind, but I do think he's being significantly more under the radar than I'm used to.

I agree with gamma that arguing about the duel stuff might not be the greatest idea early on. We're probably better off focusing on the whole finding scum thing rather than distracting from this by trying to solve the issue of optimal dueling strategy. First we find scum... then we think about the best way to deal with them.

For all the people still going on about this, its the reason I brought it up in the form of RQS. Better we get everyone's opinion on the matter now, derive information from it, and move on.

Toasty announced an idea that I was not thinking about, the fact for multiple scum teams. Possibly it was innocent. Possibly it came from the fact he knew his scum team was weak, and lackadasically wondered aloud.
In this context, it is worth keeping an eye on toasty's play. However, now that the idea is out there, being that I love Dynasty Warriors, I saw fit to mention what the possiblity of multiple sucm teams would look like, to frame the game in an understandable reference if you had no flavour knowledge.

Your stance on me is odd. At this point in time, there's no way anyone would say "this person is obvscum." I don't think thats what RayFrost is saying. Your point on how I can be either mafia knowing I have a weak scum team or town with an honest suggestion...means that my statement was null, and shouldn't really lead to the suspicion you glean from it. It was something I had been considering pre-game, and as such I thought it a good thing to mention.
So because I announced an idea you weren't thinking about, that makes me--well, I don't know what you think that makes me, even after reading your responses to RayFrost.

Yeah, Toasty and Ludi are scum.

Unvote, Vote: Toasty

Are you suggesting that there is a connection between myself and Ludi? Please explain. I can't comment on a vote with a simple declaration.

Unvote:Vote: MagisterLudi

This is better than a random vote for now. Still in the formulate-opinion stage atm. The one thing about RayFrost that was bizzare in this discussion is that it made me ask what his reasons were for coming to my defense.

[ToastyToast]

I've played every Dynasty Warriors game basically.
Toasty, what lead you to believe in two scum teams?

Well, from the knowledge I do have of the flavor, the fact that there are multiple families, all with different goals, suggest that our town will have more than one going against them. Given that this is a large theme, multiple scum teams is not rare. Also, a large without 2 scum teams tends to have some 3rd parties. The game being about warfare b/w families, I find find a mafia-sk setup to be less likely. Of course, this cannot be known until we get night results.

[ToastyToast]

RF 99 wrote:
"Toasty is suspect for coming up with the possibility of multiple scumteams"
"There are possibilities for scumteams and there's probably a serial killer!"
Vote: Magister Ludi

If he has knowledge of the theme, why not be upfront about it?

Did u miss RayFrosts point? It was a contradiction, and he was attacking me for something he sees as a possibility. I don't understand why suggesting multiple scum teams=scum, and thats really all I'm getting from the people voting me.
---

Toast 120 wrote:
I do think he's being significantly more under the radar than I'm used to.

The game has been open for, like, 24 hours.

Nonetheless, this is either a different approach since he gets lynched D1 almost every time as town, or this is his scum-game. You left out the part where I agreed with GreyICE that people should know DK's game b4 voting him. I just added that we can't really just give him the "newb" status and move on because he is playing differently than I remember.

Are you suggesting that there is a connection between myself and Ludi? Please explain. I can't comment on a vote with a simple declaration.

He explained an issue with you earlier, and I have the same one. You're saying one thing but meaning another.

Don't know how you misunderstood such a simple question. I asked him if he saw a connection b/w me and Ludi, given that he called us both scum and then voted me. And AGM's reasons are less than stellar.

[ToastyToast]

I could see scum making a post like this, be wary of ToastyToast buddying imo.

Anything in particular that you don't like, or the whole post in general?

Why are we speculating about flavor so much, because that shouldn't have any bearing on anyone's ability to play mafia?
Moreover, I think we shouldn't get starstruck by the duel mechanic. Let's play it cool like a normal game and use the duel if the need for it comes up.

To get over it and stimulate discussion. Also, no. We should be using the duel mechanic every time--its there for a reason. More duels=more town power. We just have to be smart in who we have duel.

Now that I'm here I'm going to use it to find the scum but letting a bunch of VIs decide a certain way the mechanic is used is a great way for scum to manipulate it so that it best suits them.

Do you think something like this is happening right now?

Post of the day. In spirit I'm on the Ludi wagon.

This is odd to me. Do you PREFER a Ludi lynch over an Elvis lynch? Also, your vote on Elvis is weak because it consists of "she knows me better, so she shouldn't be voting me."

Lets try something new. Hard tunneling on day one. It's rare that I have been more convinced on somebody.

You say this like its a good thing. Post 184 has both weak and strong points. For example, the whole "dont trust anyone" thing is exactly what she's saying--she says we can't trust anyone and as such everyone should be voting for who to duel, as oppossed to the people who others

think

are town.

The reason your null and not scummy: She is strawmanning, and the self-hammer point is spot on. Her apprehension is also noted. I'm mentioning your case because 1)your reasons seem to change and 2)the tunneling comment (even if it was supposed to be funny)

[ToastyToast]

Drunken Unicorn, I find myself wondering how i suddenly ended up on your scum-list despite the lack of any mention of me whatsoever by the two of you b4 your hydra was created. I have A LOT to catch up on, time to get started!

[ToastyToast]

I don't understand why suggesting multiple scum teams=scum, and thats really all I'm getting from the people voting me.

Not me. I don't like the way you're trying to play to both AGM and elvis like AGM pointed out. I think they have two very different visions on how the mechanic should be addressed, and I think, even when confronted directly about this, you're straight up dodging the issue. This is significantly worse than taking one side or the other.

What can I say, I like compromise. Its not like either opinion is ZOMG WRONG, but neither is perfect either. So, somewhere inbetween seems like a good option. It has nothing to do with playing both AGM and elvis. At this point I'm okay with Juls plan, because the "asking people for their opinions" stage is over.

The reason your null and not scummy: She is strawmanning, and the self-hammer point is spot on. Her apprehension is also noted.

These comments really put me off to you. I still get this sense like you're trying to do one thing to please person X and another thing to please person Y. It's like, here, you want to criticize mykonian for coming after elvis instead of ML, but right at the end you can't help but add in that you dislike elvis for the same reasons he does.

Not quite. What actually happened was that I saw one point, commented on it because I didn't like it, and then read the rest of his case. There's a reason they're both null reads(I'll make a list)--its because I don't fully agree with what they are saying/what they are doing

Like, for example, I'd want Gamma to duel Toast today, then follow that up with another townish person, say Juls herself, dueling, like, C-Worl. These are just examples, but the point is that I wouldn't want Juls, Gamma, or anyone else to be permament duelists. Is that what you're getting at?

Gamma has basically told us "I just can't get into this game." That behavior doesn't =OMGTOWNIESTHERE.

#55 by toasty toast. reminds me of Andrius, i.e. "hoohhhh look I drew a scum role! awesome!.... wait. sh1t. how am I gonna win now? I am obv when I'm scum. OH WAIT I KNOW! I'll just buddy up to EVERYONE... k here goes: Hello to [namedrop], [namedrop], [namedrop], [namedrop], [namedrop], [namedrop], [namedrop], [namedrop], [namedrop], [namedrop], [namedrop] and last but not least, [namedrop]! I L U GUYZ!!! <3"

I hate this. You are using my friendship with Andrius to me look like scum. I assure you are playing styles are totally different. Also, never said I loved them (AGM and Vi, i'm still pissed about Cowboy). Go look for my scum-game and see if you think the same. Don't act like you have some insider-information because you know how Andrius plays--you don't.

Vote:GreyICE

for lurking in the first few minutes

This is buddying? I'm pretty sure thats a random vote.

List later

[ToastyToast]

Okay, this list is in order from townies to scummiest. A lot of people are null, which is why this list for me is more about rank than groups.

Buttered Toast

1)Juls—Strongest town read; was willing to change her plan, and post 11 was SCREAMED town

2)RedCoyote—Legitimate scum-hunting. I actually don’t think badly of him for his vote on me because he’s continuing to push the issues and isn’t tunneling. Goodposting is goodposting.

3)RayFrost—Town. Reads are good, is scumhunting everywhere.

4)Gammagooey—Although post 80 and 12 are goodposting, I still feel like people are being too quick to call him town. For this reason I would prefer someone like Juls to duel. The whole “not interested” thing puts me off, but I see improvement.

5)inHim—I’m getting town, but its primarily gut

Toast

6)mykonian—If right now there was a duel b/w him and elvis, I would choose him. I still do have very little opinion on the elvis-mykonian debate—I think they are both looking too far into people who oppose their favored method of dueling.

7)elvis_knits—Her intentions with the duel plan sound sincere. Voting her merely for her plan is a poor reason. Aggressive, but this does not make her town (as she seems to think).

8)DietyKabuto—He’s playing significantly differently than I remember. This can either be scumplay or just an improvement. Ignoring meta, he is not contributing. Agree that meta is not enough to make him suspect

9)AGM—meh, I don’t like him all that much this game, but I remember his posts being much longer (and fluffy) when he was scum in Cowboy Bebop. Certainly isn’t enough to put him on town, though9)Maxous—I have no problems here, but think its too soon to tell/get a read on him. Needs to post more

10)Maxous--I have no problems with him, but the fact that I needed to ISO him to remember what he's done means he needs to post more. Unmemorable.

11)GreyICE—Maybe its just because we got into a fight in Cowboy, but I remember him saying a lot more. Dare I say, is he trolling?

12.)Bastard Bros—who’s that?

13.)Magister Ludi—I’ve been thinking about my read on him a lot. At the time of my vote, I felt he was the scummiest not really for his speculation itself but the fact that he condoned it then went along with it anyways. His lack of a vote sits ill with me.

14.)Iecerint—His activity levels seem to fluctuate, don’t like how he must constantly remind us his reasons for voting Ludi

Burnt Toast

15)Katsuki—lurky lurker will lurk

16)Vi—If the post restriction is indeed fake, I see no reason for town to do this. Hard to follow, given that she answers everything with one liners, with the exception of RedCoyote. Keep getting reminded of hascow winning Game of Thrones with a fake post restriction.

17)C-Worl—Stop with the ‘’everyone’s a VI” thing. Its distracting and unhelpful. If everyone is a VI, then who, of these VI’s, is the worst for you? Standoff-ish, only posts to complain

18)Amrun—Sorry Amrun, but a vote based on meta is not a good vote unless there’s something to go with it. A vote based on lack of VI behavior? No, not buying it. I think you are trying to get him to slip with the mindset that its an easy thing to do.

I want a list of reads from you plz

19)Drunken Unicorn—Yeahhh, scum. Firstly, the hydra heads are either in disagreement with one another or are not communicating properly, which I don’t like. Had the worst case against me, I don’t play like Andrius. Still not sure why he thinks I’m buddying. Other than that terrible point, the slot has not added anything new and seems content to go with the flow. Bad reads, in my opinion.

Well, that took forever. But its done. Didn't realize how much work this was to do in a large game. In accordance to my list, I

Unvote:Vote Drunken Unicorn

[ToastyToast]

@Iec: I was referring to length, not amount. I see minimum effort unless called out to explain/answer/something involving Ludi.

@Vi: The post restriction thing is my main concern with you, you're hard enough for me to read in a game without one.

[ToastyToast]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 11

Amrun

- 5 - DietyKabuto, elvis_knits, GreyICE, RedCoyote, Vi - (L-6)

DietyKabuto

- 1 - Amrun - (L-10)

Drunken Unicorn Master

- 4 - RayFrost, InHimshallibe, Maxous, ToastyToast - (L-7)

elvis_knits

- 2 - Gammagooey, mykonian - (L-9)

GreyICE

- 2 - Juls, C-Worl - (L-9)

Iecerint

- 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)

Magister Ludi

- 2 - Iecerint, Drunken Unicorn Master - (L-9)

ToastyToast

- 2 - AlmasterGM, Katsuki - (L-9)

Players not voting: Bastard Bros

That list is brutal, and not just because I'm being called scummy despite reasons for low activity.
His scumreads are based as follows:
- Lurking due to sickness
- Post restriction
- Playstyle
- Bad logic
- Hydra disagreement, and having suspected Toasty of buddying.
DERPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

Unvote, Vote: Toasty

@Vi: Keeping that read to myself for a while longer.

Umm no, you only took one part of each
1)Aww, is it hard to sit at home and type something on a computer when your sick? Please, unless I was in the hospital, I would be spending MORE time on mafia. Sorry if that sounds cruel, but I don't consider this sickness to be an excuse. Also, don't you always have low activity levels? The reason you got onto the scumlist instead of other lurkers was a matter of rank, I could definately see you as the scum hiding amongst the lurkers. Besides, your posts suggest that you are keeping up enough (despite your sickness) to make more comments.
2)The post restriction is distracting. Give me an explanation for why its even in this game and maybe I'll reconsider.
3)Thats a playstyle thing? C-worl has done nothing except call people VI (need I remind you that he hasn't really told us who those VI's are either). A lack of content=scummy
4)Amrun has bad logic and I'm calling her out on it. Probably going to get crap for saying it like this, but targeting DK is something I could see scum who knows DK's playing style doing.
5)Read the Drunken Unicorn slot and honestly tell me it isn't scummy. The thing about me was poor, the "HERP DERP" parts were nonsense, and commenting on something, calling it "oh, that was good" is not adding anything new.

CSL's posts have been minimal. ISO it. Its: "I like this," "Reaper STFU," "ur an idiot."

ReaperCharlies posts have been minimal: "elvis wants town cred," "you are tripping" "You're retarded," "Don't say RC."

When the merge into hydra form: "lololol Toast knows Andrius and he's acting like Andrius-scum," "oh look he voted greyICE, obvBUDDYING!" "telling people u look forward to playing with them is scummy," "o hey, (points to random post) I like this!" "this is not a scumtell(no explanation why--I find it scummy)"

Hydra didn't explain things, and a lot of it has already been said. So, no, Unicorn has legitimately done nothing.

Oh, and calling it OMGUS? Well, if you flip town with all this....I don't even know what it is....the, Mr. DrunkUnicorn, you DO suck.

PEDIT: Katsuki, tell me how a fake PR HELPS town. It doesn't. So, the way I see it, there is no pro-town reason for faking a PR, and as such using one is inherently anti-town.

[ToastyToast]

Toast, please come up with better scumreads. I want you to show me proof that hydra disagreements are a scumtell.
No, actually, tell us HOW your scumreads are scum.
~CSL

My list was made via process of elimination. I started looking at the people I considered to be most town and place them in order based on the strength I feel in said reads. I told myself the given this game has 20 players, its likely that at least 1/4 is antitown. So, I placed the last 5 remaining people into my scum list. In short, they're scum because everyone else is townier than they are. Why? Because of the reasons I gave in my post. Katsuki is scum because despite there being other lurkers and other people who haven't contributed, she is the most under-the-radar. From experience, there is usually one scum who plays in this way. Vi is scum because I can't tell if she's accusing everyone or agreeing with everyone. One minute she declares someone town and the next she says "possible duel. I am a robot." Also, faking a PR is not pro-town in any way. Amrun is scum for her poor argument on DK; she hasn't defended against it well and only switched her gaze when a Ludi wagon was forming.
You are scum for agreeing with people voting me but making a TERRIBLE argument in order to hop on the wagon. Also, I do consider fluff a scum-tell. You also attempt to undermine arguments by saying things like "thats stupid" without explaining why.
Hydra's disagreeing with one another doesn't always mean scum but it provides a nice cover, which is why I included that point. The two of you seem all over the place, and as such it allows you to take on multiple opinions without garnering as much suspicion. For example, CSL, you voted one way before the hydra was activated, then ReaperCharlie came in and voted another way. You then proceeded to tell him to STFU. In a one-person slot, they would get called out for being wishy-washy in the way that I got called out for not making a solid argument regarding the setup ideas. Instead, you pass along with no comment on the change.

Lack of contribution =/= scum.
Try harder
~CSL

Oh, so you now admit your lack of contribution?

[ToastyToast]

Toasty 434: You are still saying we are scum for disagreeing. You successfully mislynch us, and I'll guarantee you will be lynched or dueled out tomorrow.

DeityKabuto 435 is :goodposting:

So I should back off out of fear? I think not.

[ToastyToast]

There you have it. Toast is scum.

No, in that post you CLAIM that lynching you will be a mislynch. I don't think it will be. Using such a statement is essentially a "when I flip town" argument. We can't know that unless it happens. As such, its a fear tactic telling me to back off if I want to stay alive.

[ToastyToast]

myko raises a good point about Ray (and possibly Toasty) being on the DUM wagon. Maxous and Bastard Bros are fine, though.

I don't get the Dum wagon, and yeah I find it weird that Toasty followed onto it. Seems mostly like he didn't like DUM calling him scum.

I'm voting him for shit reasons, not for calling me scum.

@Vi: Sorry, I didn't know you were asking me for clarification. The hydra bit is not the main part of my reasons, more of an additional factor. By not showing a unified front, they basically become two separate players with different thoughts/stances. Which is both hard to track and allows them to get away with things a single-person slot would be doing. If they are treated as a single person, then they were being incredibly wishy-washy early game (which is my main problem with how they are playing as a hydra)

@Katsuki:First of all, I already apologized if it sounded cruel, but the point stands. If you were as sick as you indicated, then you wouldn't be reading my long-ass posts. Also, I didn't know you were sick at the time I made my list (missed it), nor did I know the severity. Also, I'm not sick--I just can't tell how sick YOU are given that, you know, I can't see or hear you. Idk why your going so crazy about this, I explained that I made my list in order from towniest to scummiest, and, when I got down to the last 5 players, you were still there. Do you think I should consider you town because of your sickness?

with regards to your questions on vi
1)I already mentioned that, in addition to the FAKE PR, vi does not have a focussed opinion and seems to suspect everyone
2)If its

fake

, then how is it at all helpful to town? How does intentionally making posts hard to understand help town in any way? There is no logical reason for making one up in my opinion.

[ToastyToast]

^^That reminds me. Unicorn, is there any reason u are voting Ludi over your two suspects?

[ToastyToast]

1)To all the people who say I'm "pushing" Katsuki, I recommend you reread what I said about her on my list. She is on my scumlist but I have no intention of voting or lynching her today because its my weakest read. All things I have said about Katsuki are responses to her questions.

2)People who I think should be on the losing side of a duel: DUM, Amrun
People who should duel: Gamma(because of his power, but I do not think this clears him as town), Juls

3)People who have me on their scumlist: Kat, DUM, Amrun, elvis_knits, AGM, RedCoyote, Bastard(says im leaning scum), Gammagooey, Ludi(?),

In other words, I'm getting very frustrated with the amount of people who suspect me when only a few have actually explained why. Also, this whole bad reads BS--well, we don't know if they are bad reads, do we? Don't see how this is a scum-tell, just as you don't seem to see why I consider DUM to be scummy. Ugh, on the verge of rage mode right now.

also, some other things I am reminded of as I catch up.
1)Elvis, since when is agreeing with someone's thought process buddying? You seem to think I'm buddying you. I'm not, your not even on my town list.
2)Amrun, you say I have bad reads and strange pushes. The only person I've really pushed today is DUM. There are no flips. Therefore, you cannot say I have bad reads unless you happen to know who scum is.

[ToastyToast]

Probably.

Sitting in class, and forgot to preview first.

No longer answering that question. You don't like my answer? Fine, I don't give a shit.

[ToastyToast]

Probably.

Sitting in class, and forgot to preview first.

No longer answering that question. You don't like my answer? Fine, I don't give a shit.

Not to mention, the answer never occured in the first place. So I had no answer TO like, SINCE YOU GAVE NONE.

I commented on why I find the post restriction scummy multiple times. I have no reason to repeat myself. Your obviously just pissed off that I talked about your sickness.

[ToastyToast]

I mentioned my suspicion on Vi and you in the same post...

[ToastyToast]

Also, you never answered this

Katsuki, tell me how a fake PR HELPS town. It doesn't. So, the way I see it, there is no pro-town reason for faking a PR, and as such using one is inherently anti-town.

[ToastyToast]

Unvote, Vote: ToastyToast

Thanks Gamma for being so vocal regarding me in this game. You really responded well to my post when I said I was getting frustrated by people who suspected me without saying why. Lets look at what you've said about me!

Iffy
A bunch of people
Also magister

I'd also be pretty okay with a Toasty lynch if elvis absolutely isn't happening but I'd like to know why Myk unvoted.

such wonderful input! I'm in awe! This is even better than DUM's wonderful case!

ALSO, IF EVERYONE WERE TO START POSTING WITH RESTRICTIONS, THEY'D BE SCUM?
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
Since you're willing to ignore all content from Vi and focus on the PR, we'll play.

Tell me how PR makes Vi scum.
Just because something is not pro-town does NOT make it anti-town.

Its fake. Its distracting. Its antitown.

That list is brutal, and not just because I'm being called scummy despite reasons for low activity.
His scumreads are based as follows:
- Lurking due to sickness
- Post restriction
- Playstyle
- Bad logic
- Hydra disagreement, and having suspected Toasty of buddying.
DERPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

Unvote, Vote: Toasty

@Vi: Keeping that read to myself for a while longer.

Hence, you began suspecting me for the Vi thing and the sick thing at the same time.

[ToastyToast]

Thanks Gamma for being so vocal regarding me in this game. You really responded well to my post when I said I was getting frustrated by people who suspected me without saying why. Lets look at what you've said about me!

But seriously you've said it's antitown like 4 times without saying why that particular brand of antitown is more likely to come from scum than town.

If you think Vi's post restriction is the only reason for my case.....wow.
What else do you want me to say? Its adding to my read on her. I said I did my list in order by rank. I originally had a town read on Vi, but as I re-read everyone's slots, almost everyone in the game was

more town

than she was. Part of the reasons I saw it this way was because of her post restriction. Its making her difficult to read. I don't see why town would make themselves difficult to read. As such, I don't consider her town.

I've said its antitown 4 times because I've been asked the same amount of times (if not more). I have been asked for clarification. I clarified to the best of my ability, and I've had enough of it. Am I even trying to get Vi lynched? No, but I nonetheless find her play to be odd for town. This game has at least 5 scum. As such, my scum list has 5 people. Vi made it in the bottom 5. How much simpler do I have to make this? There's a reason Vi isn't lower on my list and its because I am fully aware that what I see as scummy is not alone worth a lynch. My reads make Amrun and DUM the closest to lynchable and the only people I am willing to lynch today. The results of the flip will likely change said reads.

@Toast: Twist things more.
You know full well that is not the post where you pushed my sickness being a scumtell, and that it came before you did so.

I wasn't pushing it as a scumtell, I was pushing it as a BS excuse for lurking. In the post I quoted, you already expressed your discontent in my read on you, based on the fact that you were sick and I still called you scum. The lurking is the scumtell. Coincidentally, you became significantly more active after I accused you of this. More active to tunnel me.

@Maxous: Is it scummy to add to a case? the phrasing makes me look like shit, but I thought I had mentioned it prior. The point was intended to be connected to the PR. The fact that I was having trouble reading her because of it relates to my view that her suspicions are everyone. I can't tell who she likes, who she doesn't like because everytime she posts its like "I AM A ROBOT. I FIND A SCUMMY THING HERE BUT A TOWN THING HERE. IN OTHER WORDS, I DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE AN OPINION."

[ToastyToast]

Vi is scum because I can't tell if she's accusing everyone or agreeing with everyone. One minute she declares someone town and the next she says "possible duel. I am a robot." Also, faking a PR is not pro-town in any way.

I did mention it, in response to DUM's accusation that my reads are shit. My Vi read obviously needed further clarification at this point, especially as to why I found it so distracting it. 434

[ToastyToast]

I can't tell who she likes, who she doesn't like because everytime she posts its like "I AM A ROBOT. I FIND A SCUMMY THING HERE BUT A TOWN THING HERE. IN OTHER WORDS, I DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE AN OPINION."

Read Vi's iso 32.
Then please punch yourself in the face.

Gamma, that came long after this Vi thing started.

[ToastyToast]

P-Edit: Ninja'ed on the last point by Gamma. Still Toast what is your opinion of the post? Do you still find Vi scummy?

The post was a good one. I still don't like the whole post restriction thing, but her responses have sufficed for now, whereas nothing has changed my suspicions on DUM, C-worl, Amrun. Katsuki's rage is just annoying to deal with, doesn't change my read.

I'm catching up the last few pages, but since I'm probably going to get lynched I will say that in the situation a duel comes about, I would much rather give the win to Juls than to Gamma

[ToastyToast]

Toasty: I never said you had bad reads, so nice misrep. I did, however, say you were pushing bad cases. Newsflash: you are. It is true that you pushed DUM more than Katsuki, but I dislike your "case" on Katsuki more than your case on DUM, though I dislike them both. Though while we're at it, if you reach the correct conclusion with incorrect logic, your conclusion is still incorrect: therefore, even if you are town and DUM and Katsuki are scum, your reads would still be bad. Those are the rules of logic, sir.

I sense that this is a "caught for the wrong reasons" temper tantrum from Toasty.

I need to check the vote count before voting.

Oh, please. 1)My "case" on Katsuki (which I never made, I just pointed out that her lurking was coming off as scummy and as such she made it at the lowest part of my scum-list). OF COURSE U DONT LIKE MY CASE. IT DOESNT EXIST BECAUSE I WAS SIMPLY VOICING A SUSPICION. I DONT WANT TO LYNCH HER. Putting someone as your fifth-most-likely scum is essentially an FOS.

2)Oh, I'm sorry. I find using someone else's playing style habits as reason to vote me to be INCREDIBLY suspect. Its also obnoxious.

3)Whats logical to one person can be illogical to another. I am connecting things that I FIND SCUMMY with players that I FIND SCUMMY. Its basic deduction. Also, I could go on and on about YOUR idiotic conclusions with regards to the little "incorrect" thing. Give me one thing that ensures someone is scum. Oh, thats right, nothing does. So, if I find actions that

I think

indicate scum, I WILL FUCKING FOLLOW THEM.

4) No this is a legitimate rage session about how annoyed I am with everyone in this game. I have never felt so unappreciated in a game. I WORKED MY ASS OFF. I read, and re-read, and tried my best to find scum--to find things that other people were missing. But what does it get me? All it does is push me from my usual area of null and into the area of "OLOOKHESUCKSLYNCH"

Seriously, I feel like the people on my lynch are just bored and want to get to night phase. Do me a favor and make sure Amrun gets lynched after me.

[ToastyToast]

Toasto, you've lost sight of why Gammagooey is dueling in the first place.

I get it, but odds are he has some other power that he'll achieve after a duel, and I don't consider him townie enough to grant him that, as you all seem to.

[ToastyToast]

Also, I'm ready to claim whenever

[ToastyToast]

Somewhere along the four minutes I spent reading up I missed exactly why ToastyToast is getting ganged up on aside from the usual.

I think the charges against him are being trumped up and don't expect a scum flip at all, but not enough of value would be lost if he died so... whatever.

I'm on vacation and will continue to be on vacation at Gammagooey's deadline, people are acting like/being mental invalids, if and when he flips Town I will question the appropriate parties' alignment and {call for their immediate execution, insult their intelligence} accordingly.

btw, this is scummy. lol Vi back on scumlist again

[ToastyToast]

Cut: Magister Ludi is not incorrect that the Toastwagon has ~Town reads on it mostly. I don't think your death or claim is necessary, but if six other people of good repute think otherwise, if it's actually going to help them so be it. Much to my chagrin, the odds don't seem that great that anyone's going to do a favor for my reads, so etc.

But look at the people who voiced a strong suspicion in me before the wagon formed. Quite a few scumreads there, eh? That way when i flip town they can say they weren't on the wagon/that I wasn't their #1 suspect.

Also, Amrun? DUM? Katsuki? Ludi? You think those people are town-reads? Last time I checked all were on my scum-list/leaning-scum. RedCayote and Gamma are the exceptions from my PoV.

[ToastyToast]

I'm not absolutely convinced that inhim is scum. So no way. I am shocked by your reads.

[ToastyToast]

@Bastard: Im just pissed off, as such, emotion will show through regardless. Also, I DID question Gamma about his vote on me. Similarly, I have argued that his power does not make him town. idk why u missed that. Almaster has had suspicions on me throughout the game, wasn't unexpected.

[ToastyToast]

I love how u just made a list without any reasoning. I also love how no one see's how shitty your case on me is.

[ToastyToast]

Ok, claim time. I'm going to sleep soon so I would prefer it if you don't duel me immediately.

I am Zhang He of the Five Generals of Wei. I have no normal powers, but if I win a duel I gain an ability called "Watchful Eye." This allows me to both watch and track my target.

[ToastyToast]

Why would I want to fakeclaim Zhang He as opposed to actually claim Zhang He?

[ToastyToast]

there is also a quote (im guessing its something he says in the game) and it says my wincon is that I win when all threats to the Wei have been eliminated

I am aware, Gamma, I'm not stupid.

[ToastyToast]

rofl, well my gaydar definitely goes off regarding his character. But that a misrep, I'm bi . Still seems kind of a strange assumption to make given that I don't know the flavor well at all to pick up on stuff like that.

[ToastyToast]

I use "gay" the way that lesbians use it.

I thought you made a statement about "pretty much all of us" liking the flavor and/or SX games at some point in my readthrough IIRC, so I assumed you knew the flavor. Maybe I confused you with someone else?

I never said that. I have very limited flavor knowledge. I was going to buy the newest game, but I always do research on it beforehand. In other words, my knowledge is only at the wikipedia level.

[ToastyToast]

Little time I skimmed..
Vi is back on the scumlist?

When was she off it? Bah :/

I said I liked her post with the reads. She also stopped with the post restriction. Then she said that.

[ToastyToast]

YeH, I want Deity to give an explanation of his ability. Is the RedCoyote kill his?

[ToastyToast]

Toast: so much for your supposed careful reading, huh? Vi killed RedCoyote. Deity immediately after "pierced" you.

*haven't read yet* just saw the bolded from deity and C-worl

[ToastyToast]

Vi is confirmed town. Might as well do this.

Pierce: ToastyToast

Not necessarily. More game of thrones vibes....*spreads arms wide* But dead scum is dead scum.

[ToastyToast]

I don't know the flavor.

Mod suggests heavily that RC was third party. Until we get another flip like it, I'll be trusting the mod over your assertion on the flavor.

If you think redcoyote is third party, why don't you ask him?

[ToastyToast]

We don't even know what pierce does yet! reckless...

[ToastyToast]

I DID GIVE MY ABILITY. I GET A FUCKING DUAL-INVESTIGATION POWER WITH A DUEL WIN. That is not VT. Did you think everyone was going to have another power? seriously, this is why I didn't want to duel you. You should have waited.

[ToastyToast]

The only reason I would not duel you is if he said it was a delayed kill that isn't mentioned in any flavor/to the recipient/etc. Which I don't think would be the case, and also leads to the question of why would he use it on a guy that was probably going to die that day without it.

Toasty I think pretty much everyone has a D.) ability. And I'd bet some pretty decent money that you wouldn't win a duel throughout this game so functionally you're a VT.

Not if I was investigated, and you have no way of knowing whether or not I had the ability to win a duel. My play certainly was not on point this game, but I tend to get better if I'm alive longer. Seriously, this is why I was getting pissed off. Don't tell me I don't have the ability to do something without any solid evidence behind it. Also, there are certain elements in a game that could have confirmed me as town. The case on me was bad, the people on me were scummy. I can only hope that my flip help town wake up.

Well, there's no way people are going to choose you over me, so I guess I have to

Unvote:Vote:ToastyToast

GJ killing a powerful investigation role. I'll try to get some last thoughts before I die.

[ToastyToast]

Thats what I meant Juls...Im voting myself to lose....

[ToastyToast]

If in fact the duel is done differently (it was my assumption that you voted for who you want dead, just as in a normal lynch)

Then:

Vote:Gamma to win

I wanted to give my ability to you, Juls, for the record. Gamma is not obvtown like everyone seems to think....

Most opportunistic hops on my wagon: Amrun, AGM
Reads of mine that have changed: Iecrint, Katsuki (switch the two on my list)
People who should not considered obvtown but probably will be: Gamma, Vi
Possible scum based on associations with Red Cayote: Maxous (look at the post in which he voted me; soft pressure on Maxous then a switch to me), elvis (most soft-lycnh suggestions); I'll let you guys do further research, that was how RedCayote associated with players, not how players associated with redcayote

[ToastyToast]

Also, I think Kat is town based on redcayote associations, especially with the whole "I really like how you stuck it to Katsuki" thing

[ToastyToast]

Vote: Gamma

If Toasty's voting for him too then I don't see a reason not to.

My vote is irrelevant at this point. There's no other option (a no lynch just won't happen, and its too risky if gamma is indeed town)

[ToastyToast]

Vote: Gamma

If Toasty's voting for him too then I don't see a reason not to.

My vote is irrelevant at this point. There's no other option (a no lynch just won't happen, and its too risky if gamma is indeed town)

So... you've given up?

I'm not going to vote for someone who I don't think is scum. His impatience with DK is only annoying, not necessarily scummy. I'm pretty confident that my flip will at least allow people to make the right decision about the second duel that will occur today.

[ToastyToast]

? your logic is poor. We already talked about how we should work the duels, have we not? The way we are doing them is to pair up someone most people think is town against someone most people think is scum. In other words, I have already been determined as the lynch by the declaration of a duel. Why should I try to implicate Gamma as scum if I don't believe him to be scum? If this was a duel between, say, myself and DUM, then it would be a different story. But whats done is done and I cannot do anything to change it. Anyone can see that I'm going to lose this duel, regardless. I'm even going to be voted by people who think I'm town because, out of the two of us, Gamma has been chosen as the town to duel. I'm willing to sacrifice myself if it means that my flip will lead to the scum resting on it. Thats why I earlier pointed out the groups of "those who have mentioned that they would have me lynched" and "those who were on my wagon before the duel." Last time I checked, flips are used in order to find scum. A gamma flip makes absolutely no sense at this point, he is universally considered to be town and as such it is difficult to determine the motivations behind calling him such.

PEDIT: @Juls: yes. Lynching myself is more pro-town than arguing to take another possible townie down with me.

[ToastyToast]

OMG, I have been swinging enough in this game, and, quite frankly, I'm drained. I am NOT saying you should immediately write Gamma off as town. I AM saying that, even if I ISO'd Gamma right now, the entire case would be manufactured and false, because I don't think he is scum at this moment.

Do you want me to start swinging, C-worl? Your still on my scum list. And you said it yourself, I'm going to die regardless. Your being contradictory. You say that I should fight for my life, but at the same time say that doing so would be useless. I've accepted the fact that I am a townie who is going to be lynched because people find my reads and cases to be weak. I've also accepted the fact that despite my frustration towards Gamma and the other players who believe that I am scum, they cannot ALL be scum and are likely misguided. As such fighting to stay alive in the place of someone else will just make me tomorrow's lynch. Even if Gamma turned out to flip scum there would be plenty of people saying "OMG HE'S ON SECOND SCUM TEAM." The suspicion is strong enough, and the declaration of the duel marks my end in the game.

and LOL at you thinking SpyreX is a bastard mod and that deciding not to fight to stay alive is scummy. I have never been lynched in a game as town (with the exception of a game in which it was 2 town vs 2 scum-teams) because I have a really strong survival instinct. However, even I realize that fighting this won't do anything and could ultimately hurt town.

-I will say once again that my claim is 100% true. Because the first flip had no role attached to it, this includes my tracker/watcher ability with the duel.

[ToastyToast]

@Vi: It came up again primarily because of when u switched to non-robot mode.
You said that in the last two games you were scum (one of which I was a part of), you were lynched embarrassingly. You said that suspicion gains from it would have lead you to stop immediately if you were scum, as to avoid getting lynched embarrassingly yet again. However, the way I see it, faking a post restrictions can just as easily been used if you were worried about getting lynched embarrassingly again.

Because whatever I just wrote was terribly written, I guess what I'm trying to say is, you could have seen cows genius play and decided to use your own version of it. You take out the major flaw (being inactive, not having to do a thing), but keep the strong points (being hard to read, daykilling your scumbuddy). The statement was classic "WIFOM." I know you to be an intelligent player, and as such if you were frustrated that you kept getting lynched as scum you may have tried to adopt someone else's play.

[ToastyToast]

There's a difference in fighting an inevitable lynch and just giving up. If you give up scum have no reason to argue. They just hop on the bandwagon bc you're not going to fight it. And yes, I do want you to make your cases, even the one on me. You don't think Gamma is scum? Fine, don't make a case on Gamma but you should still vote for you to win. Make cases on who you think is scum that way if you do flip town we'll know your reads and we might see things that only you noticed. Fight damnit, don't give scum an excuse to hide.

Given that I just got lynched, (yay twilight phase) its too late for that. I gave my last thoughts ON MULTIPLE OCCASSIONS, so go back and read. I said who I thought is scum, who pplz should look at after my flip, etc. The lynch wagon should be the wagon that is examined, for that is what led to my duel.

GOOD LUCK TOWN!

[ToastyToast]

This is my summary/ final reads

[ToastyToast]

Ugh, town just played poorly. I didn't play 100% and got lynched for it. Still, I'm happy that I was 50% right on my reads, more if you count later suspicions of DK.

SInce I was suffering from N1 on in the dead thread, this is what I see:
1)Too many players thought their way of playing was the right play. Gamma did not duel correctly once, Vi caught third parties but seemed oblivious to the scum, DUM hydra was distracting, DK should have claimed who he was supposed to kill...A lot of things that SHOULD have happened just fell through.
2)Too many kills a day. When town saw that there had only been one green flip, they should have played more conservatively
3)Letting the "I have no read" people live (C-worl)
4)Believing that scum wouldn't oust one another to power themselves.
5)Too quick to duel

GreyICE is right to say that no town player did well, and its unfortunate because the setup was great.
I definitely think my reads killed me this game (poor evidence), but I'm still pissed off that people found this to be scummier than any other person in the game--enough to be lynched on a purely town wagon..

[ToastyToast]

Or maybe just shoot scummy lurkers or lurkers in general. You know how much info you get off a lurker lynch? Zero. Even if they're scum, you don't learn anything because they're NOT POSTING.
But no. You wanted to be the vig who shot the scum who were getting away with it. The big damn hero. Well here we are, very heroic.
You didn't shoot the scummiest people in the thread. Red Coyote, scummier than C-Worl? NOOOOOOOO. You shot people based on a complex meta analysis that was so deep in the 'overreading' category you could have confirmation biased me into a serial killer.

Vi gets MVP because she's the only person responsible for shooting people who weren't town. so, despite the fact that she did not play a 100% game, you can't blame it all on her. Ir you were more active or more like the GreyICE most of us are used to, then maybe you wouldn't have gotten vig'd